Church still attracting converts: CHN at record levels

The Wanderer ^ | 10/10/02 | Paul Likoudis

[LibertyGirl77]

I would feel pretty blessed, too, if I had been chosen to carry the son of God. "Blessed" does not mean "holiest" or "worthy of praise." Blessings are a free gift from God; we cannot earn them. I am blessed with good health, a loving relationship, a wonderful family and talent that secures for me a good income. I am blessed.

Mary was blessed. Though she was a sinner (the book of Romans states that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God), she found favor with God and He trusted her to birth and raise His Son. That is an enormous blessing.

But I don't think the fact that God blessed Mary with such an awesome responsibility necessarily means that she rules with him in Heaven, or that she can even hear us when we pray. She was just a humble Jewish girl. That's the beauty of the Bible story -- God uses humble, everyday sinners to accomplish His great work on Earth.

[LibertyGirl77]

***Again in the Bible, the crucifixion story when Jesus gives his mother to John and John to his mother. What does your Bible say about the literal and the symbolic message here? ***

I read nothing above the text. I believe Jesus was providing for the care of His mother after His death. It's a very Jewish thing to do, don't you think?

[pegleg]

I read nothing above the text. I believe Jesus was providing for the care of His mother after His death. It's a very Jewish thing to do, don't you think?

From the cross Jesus said:

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son.
After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. (John 19:26-27)

So why do you think Christ would tell John to behold thy mother?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I would feel pretty blessed, too, if I had been chosen to carry the son of God. "Blessed" does not mean "holiest" or "worthy of praise." Blessings are a free gift from God; we cannot earn them. I am blessed with good health, a loving relationship, a wonderful family and talent that secures for me a good income. I am blessed.

AMEN. This is exactly what I have said numerous times, but alot of Catholics fail to understand. Because we don't "venerate" her they feel that must mean we don't consider her blessed, special, highly favored. I believe all of this. That does not mean that she is anything other then a sinful person who was in need of a Savior, as she her self stated (Luke 1;47). The Catholics take our attitude towards Mary as scorn, which is a big li...uhh...mischaracterazation:)

Becky

[malakhi]

We consider them decisively authoritative OVER the church. You consider the Church decisively authoritative OVER the scripture. I've seen (and been a part of) the discussions on some of these threads on that subject. My argument is that the scriptures are the CLEAR apostolic authority extant in the world today. The apostles always had authority over the church. Therefore, the writings of the apostles have priority over the church. Others have had arguments that have attempted to dissuade me from that conclusion, but none have had arguments that I found as persuasive.

You bring up an excellent point that gets at the heart of the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Some of the Catholic doctrines cannot be accepted until one accepts the concept of apostolic succession. If there is a Magisterium given divine sanction to interpret scripture, then whatever they teach is Truth, regardless of how great or tenuous its scriptural support.

[LibertyGirl77]

Thank you, I will take a look at the website. I do have my disagreements with the idea of the papacy. I just don't read an entire doctrine into that verse as the Catholic Church does. I tend to take the text very literally. When I study the language and cultural context behind the verse, sometimes new perspectives are opened up to me. Perhaps, eventually, this will be one of those instances. I have my doubts, though.

[malakhi]

Sola Scriptura isn't a "bible verse" about a reformation teaching. Sola Scriptura is recognition that the scriptures are the writings of the apostles and the apostles are authoritative over the church.

Reg, do you have that passage from Augustine about the authority of scripture handy?

[LibertyGirl77]

***What constitutes proof for you if not arguments? ***

Actually, I've read Scott Hahn's stuff, too, and found it all to be argued from a very Catholic point of view (understandably, I might add). The problem with that is if you are protestant, you've already heard the arguments for Catholicism and rejected them. Scott Hahn may make the arguments a little better than most, but he doesn't address the real issue, which is a fundamentally different perspective and way of looking at the Scriptures between Catholics and Protestants.

Obviously, Scott Hahn had to go through a tremendous change in his way of thinking in order to convert to Catholicism. But he never tells us how he came to that new way of thinking, or how we can, or even why we should think that way, too. Instead, he just presents the same arguments from his new Catholic perspective and expectes Protestants to just "get it." But we don't get it.

[malakhi]

If you don’t believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ then you are a Protestant.

Are the Orthodox Protestants?

[LibertyGirl77]

But Jesus never asked me to get to know His mother or the saints. He asked me to come to the Father through the Son. That was His message.

[xzins]

Angelo,

You need to continue reading through the thread, but I appreciate your comments.

It isn't a matter of the authority of the scripture as much as it's a matter of the authority of Jesus and the Apostles.

However, the scriptures ARE THE PRESENCE of Jesus and the Apostles.

[pegleg]

Are the Orthodox Protestants?

Good point. No, they are in schism. The difference is their Church is of Apostolic origin. None of our Protestant friends can claim this of their Church so the are forced to come up with the "invisible church" theory which has no basis in fact.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

However, the scriptures ARE THE PRESENCE of Jesus and the Apostles.

Can you explain this a little more?

Becky

[xzins]

I could think of all kinds of biblical arguments about how you view "protestant" churches.

It's really unnecessary. It's better to just do historic geneology. Just because my son disowns me doesn't mean that my grandfather is no longer his great-grandfather.

They left your church saying that THEY were the true expression of it. The point being....they're a BRANCH of you. Your grandparents are their grandparents.

If you came from the apostles, so did they.

Also, we've not traced the history of the other patriarchates nor of independent groups.

[xzins]

Becky,
Read this and #115 above.

Sola Scriptura isn't a "bible verse" about a reformation teaching.

Sola Scriptura is recognition that the scriptures are the writings of the apostles and the apostles are authoritative over the church.

Jesus prayed for all who "believe through their (the apostles) word." Their eyewitness accounts (word of the apostles) are the prior basis of anyone's believing. Ultimately, Only believers are entering into and incorporating with the body of believers.

Jesus' words and the apostles' eyewitness teachings are preserved in the bible. It is the same AS IF they were PRESENT.

[pegleg]

I could think of all kinds of biblical arguments about how you view "protestant" churches.

Ok. Give me just one.

It's really unnecessary. It's better to just do historic genealogy. Just because my son disowns me doesn't mean that my grandfather is no longer his great-grandfather. They left your church saying that THEY were the true expression of it. The point being....they're a BRANCH of you. Your grandparents are their grandparents. If you came from the apostles, so did they.

Your reasoning does not apply here. We are talking about the Church spoken of in 1 Timothy. This has nothing to do with genealogy. It has to do with Truth. You cannot trace your Church back to the time of the Apostles therefore your Church cannot be the one that Christ established.

They left your church saying that THEY were the true expression of it. The point being....they're a BRANCH of you. Your grandparents are their grandparents.

So you would have me believe the Church that Christ established went into apostasy. That would also mean his promise to protect and be with the Church for all time is invalid. Sorry, I don’t buy it.

Also, we've not traced the history of the other patriarchates nor of independent groups.

What patriarchs and independent groups are you speaking of.

I will also point out that you have yet to directly answer any of my questions which leads me to believe you have no good answers.

[xzins]

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus.

That's one. There are lots more.


You must now decide whether I'm a separated brother or a heretic, mustn't you?

[pegleg]

You must now decide whether I'm a separated brother or a heretic, mustn't you?

The Catechism states it better than I could

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor or Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

[malakhi]

Good point. No, they are in schism.

Meaning they broke off from the Catholic church. (Of course the Orthodox believe that it was the Catholic church which broke away from them).

The difference is their Church is of Apostolic origin. None of our Protestant friends can claim this of their Church

How is their situation any different from that of the Orthodox? They both arose from a division within the church. They may have tossed a greater or lesser amount of tradition overboard, but clearly their roots are in Catholicism.

[malakhi]

They left your church saying that THEY were the true expression of it. The point being....they're a BRANCH of you. Your grandparents are their grandparents. If you came from the apostles, so did they.

Yep, the exact point I was trying to make.