Church still attracting converts: CHN at record levels

Do you think selling all the Catholic Church's holdings,will make a difference?

Do you think selling all the Catholic Church's holdings,will make a difference?

Short-term...it would offer some relief.

Long-term...throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I prefer long-term approaches. Church property and holdings, IMO, have a limited market value and unlimited use potential by the faithful.

IOW, hold it all until it's stolen or burns to the ground.

Thank you.That was the message I was attempting to convey to xzins.

I was listening to Karl Keating on Catholic radio and he said that if every building and piece of art owned by the Catholic Church was sold, it would run the world for two days.

Exactly. In the meantime, let's enjoy it.

The Los Angeles Cathedral is a place to start. But I've traveled a lot in Germany, Austria, and Poland. The era they built those buildings in was impoverished in terms of the average man.
Those buildings are indication that someone had entirely too much money.

Catholics believe in the Real Presence, which means that we believe Christ is in the Tabernacles in those Cathedrals.

6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.
8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.
13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Matthew 26.

68 When they arrived at the house of the LORD in Jerusalem, some of the heads of the families gave freewill offerings toward the rebuilding of the house of God on its site. 69 According to their ability they gave to the treasury for this work 61,000 drachmas [2] of gold, 5,000 minas [3] of silver and 100 priestly garments. 70 The priests, the Levites, the singers, the gatekeepers and the temple servants settled in their own towns, along with some of the other people, and the rest of the Israelites settled in their towns.

Ezra 2

Have you ever seen the gold/jewelry room at the Koln (Cologne) Cathedral?
Some about gold robes that gives me the willies, too.

Exodus 28
¹   And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
²   And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
³   And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
⁴   And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
⁵   And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
⁶   And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
⁷   It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
⁸   And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
⁹   And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
¹⁰   Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
¹¹   With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
¹²   And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
¹³   And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
¹⁴   And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
¹⁵   And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
¹⁶   Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
¹⁷   And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
¹⁸   And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
¹⁹   And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
²⁰   And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.
²¹   And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
²²   And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends of wreathen work of pure gold.
²³   And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
²⁴   And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.
²⁵   And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt fasten in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod before it.
²⁶   And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is in the side of the ephod inward.
²⁷   And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.
²⁸   And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.
²⁹   And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
³⁰   And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
³¹   And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.
³²   And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.
³³   And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:
³⁴   A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.
³⁵   And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.
³⁶   And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
³⁷   And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
³⁸   And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
³⁹   And thou shalt embroider the coat of fine linen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework.
⁴⁰   And for Aaron's sons thou shalt make coats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and bonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.
⁴¹   And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
⁴²   And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
⁴³   And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

Exodus 28.

A Crown for Joshua
9 The word of the LORD came to me: 10 "Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD . 13 It is he who will build the temple of the LORD , and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.' 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, [4] Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen [5] son of Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the LORD . 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the LORD , and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the LORD your God."

Zechariah 6

He WAS Jesus, wasn't he?

So you actually think abortion appears in the pages of the Constitution? I never read about it there.

I don't wanna be a spoil sport, it's just this thread was about Protestant pastors going over to the other side, so I though I throw in my $.02 since I are one.

For what it's worth I don't think much of Robert Shuller's fancy building either.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Sounds like the millennial reign of peace and prosperity with Christ in charge.

The businesses earned their money to spend their way.

The churches were given their money to spend God's way. If you've got no problem with spending poor folks' money on oppulent buildings, golden staffs, gold thread robes, and gem-studded scepters, then fine.

That must've been what God intended.

Those were not points....those were rationalizations.

"He WAS Jesus, wasn't he?"

Yes, and He still IS. It is our belief Jesus is with us to this day in the Eucharist. Hence, all those 'gold robes' you have so much trouble with are, in our view, a way to honor Him. Indeed, when I hear Protestants such as yourself take this tack about all our 'opulent' buildings, I'm always reminded of the story about the pouring of the oil on Jesus' feet and the Apostle who snottily berated the woman, self-rightously declaring she could have 'sold the oil and given the proceeds to the poor.' If the sandal fits....

Excuses, excuses.

The past is over, isn't it. The future starts now. You're not gonna do some medieval poor guy and favor by selling the gold staff he paid for with his poverty.

You might as well keep it in a museum and show it to inquisitive folks like me who pay to see that stuff.

It's what you do with your current money that's the issue, isn't it? (I'll bet at least one of you aren't thrilled at spending God's money on million dollar settlements regarding court cases in Boston or elsewhere, are you? That simply makes my point.)

"So you actually think abortion appears in the pages of the Constitution? I never read about it there."

Unfortunately, while you and I don't see it there, nine (actually six) robed fools did. Operating under the assumption that the Constitution says what they SAY it says, they therefore thwarted the majority and declared abortion legal.

What you may wish to consider is in what way the Enlightenment philosophy derived from the Reformation undergirded their action.

I guess if you've got Jesus sitting in there, you might as well make them of Gold. You've got me there.

He always was big on gold.

The point about the constitution, Al, is that you can read. You know abortion isn't in there because you can read. You know they dreamed it out of those pages.

You, therefore, understand my point.

Nice to have a written document so the little guy can keep tabs on the powerful. Nice to have a written document so the little guy can see if they're feeding him a line of bull.

You are sadly mistaken if you think I approve of Protestant opulence. Jimmy Swaggart, Robert Shuller, Jim Bakker....spent a lot on themselves.

The real point is that it's God's money.

He always was big on gold.

Me too. Wish I had some. (beyond a rather small carrot wedding band).

Nice to have a written document so the little guy can keep tabs on the powerful. Nice to have a written document so the little guy can see if they're feeding him a line of bull.

I agree, though it would be even nicer if the little guy could somehow enforce the written document. In the absence of that, it seems the little guy may not be entirely kept in the dark, but he is still being fed a pile of crap.

patent +AMDG

"You know they dreamed it out of those pages."

No. What I know is that when THEY read the document they read it differently than I do. Essentially, they bring to the document they're Own Personal Interpretation of the Constitution.

I look for the original intent of the Framers. I study what they wrote about the Constitution and what they're understanding of the Constitution was, etc. Sort of like I do with theology. I look at the Church fathers, etc.

In other words, I don't just assume I can pick up a written document and just read into it whatever I want. Mainly, because I've seen the Supreme Court do this and its killed over forty million unborn children. But then, who knows, maybe they were convicted by the Madisonian Spirit to read it that way. -)