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To: pseudo-justin
Now how do you know two things:

1. The Holy Spirit is teaching the Universal Church X.

2. The Universal Church is receiving without deception the Holy Spirit's infallible teaching that X.

Unless there are clear conditions which, if satisfied, give me the knowledge that 1 and 2 are true, what difference does it make that the Holy Spirit is teaching X?

What difference does it make that the Holy Spirit is teaching that X to the Universal Church unless we can know that the Holy Spirit is teaching X to the Universal Church?

Even if the Holy Spirit's teaching is to, and so, ultimately, through the Church, any individual Christian can (and should) confirm that teaching with GOD, Himself, per ...

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

In this very way, many have found that GOD's Word to the Church, delivered through the action of the Holy Spirit, has nonetheless been corrupted (by various degrees) by the very church authorities (with which they have had association) who were given the responsibility of faithfully delivering the Word of GOD to His people.

Fortunately for these, God is faithful to direct them to church leadership which more faithfully delivers His Word.


401 posted on 11/22/2002 2:27:28 PM PST by Quester
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To: Quester; xzins; LibertyGirl77; OLD REGGIE; SoothingDave; Catholicguy; Desdemona; RnMomof7
Quester (and you too xzins), I am not at all sure how the story you tell is supposed to help the Universal Chruch to decide upon which doctrines are normative for all Christians. It is a procedure that, at best, can arrive at what is normative, i.e. ought to be believed, only for you. How is the whole Church at once supposed to know that certain doctrines are contrary to the word of God or not? Some members of the Church say yes on a certain interpretation of Scripture, others say no on the very same passage. How is the dispute to be adjudicated in a decisive way?

Furthermore,I do not think you see fully what I am saying. Let me put it this way. You hold:

All post-Apostolic Christians are always fallible.

and you also hold, I take it:

I am a post-Apostolic Christian Now, the judgment you make, "I have checked the word of God and this pastor is faithfuly delivering it" is therefore fallible. You might very well be hearing something that really is not God's word even though you think it is, and even though you think the Holy Spirit has confirmed it.By the way, I think you also hold the following too. I will draw the implications of the affirming that all post-Apostolic Christians are fallible:

Some post-apostolic Christians decided upon the table of contents for my bible.Therfore, your table of contents might have certain erros in it.

some post-Apostolic Christians say that the apocrypha is not God's word. Therfore, the apocryphal texts might be God's word too.

some post apostolic Christians say that baptim is necessary for salvation.Therefore, baptism might not be necessary.

some post-apostolic Christians say that baptism is not necessary for salvation.Therefore, baptism might be necessary.

Jones says that Scripture says X. Therefore, Scripture might not really say X.

Bob says scripture does not say X. Therefore, Scripture might really say X.

Telling me that you are going to check the word of God for yourself does not help you, since you too are fallible, and it certainly does not help anyone else, for we are all fallible too, fallibly checking what each other says and fallibly coming to different conclusions. We might all be wrong about even very basic things. How is the WHOLE CHURCH supposed to get out of this quagmire? This is precisley the problem mentioned in the article that starts this off. Protestantism, because it affirms that all post-apostolic Christians are always fallible, directly attacks the very foundations of Christianity.

To really see the problem, I want you to draw a big circle on a piece of paper. Label that circle FALLIBLE. Then put in the circle, first, all the Christians after the apostles, then the table of contents in your Bible, then the Creeds drawn up by the councils, then all your bible commentaries, bible studies (from all times), bible dictionaries, theology books, confessions of faith, sunday school lessons, and all the beliefs you, your momma, your daddy, your pastors, your fellow Christians have (whether they agree with you or not on a certain point) because all of it is merely the work or belief of post-apostolic Christians.

404 posted on 11/22/2002 3:20:06 PM PST by pseudo-justin
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