They Didn't Hit the Vatican

Seattle Catholic ^ | 15 Nov 2002 | by Charles Lamb

[Loyalist]

Compare and contrast with Pope Urban II's famous speech at the Council of Clermont in 1095, which ordered the first Crusade:

"Oh, race of Franks, race from across the mountains, race beloved and chosen by God, - as is clear from many of your works,- set apart from all other nations by the situation of your country as well as by your Catholic faith and the honor which you render to the holy Church: to you our discourse is addressed, and for you our exhortations are intended. We wish you to know what a grievous cause has led us to your country, for it is the imminent peril threatening you and all the faithful which has brought us hither.

From the confines of Jerusalem and from the city of Constantinople a grievous report has gone forth and has -repeatedly been brought to our ears; namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians, an accursed race, a race wholly alienated from God, `a generation that set not their heart aright and whose spirit was not steadfast with God,' violently invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by pillage and fire. They have led away ap art of the captives into their own country, and a part have they have killed by cruel tortures. They have either destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of their own religion. They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness....The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and has been deprived of territory so vast in extent that it could be traversed in two months' time.

"On whom, therefore, is the labor of avenging these wrongs and of recovering this territory incumbent, if not upon you, you upon whom, above all other nations, God has conferred remarkable glory in arms, great courage, bodily activity, and strength to humble the heads of those who resist you ? Let the deeds of your ancestors encourage you and incite your minds to manly achievements:-the greatness of King Charlemagne, and of his son Louis, and of your other monarchs, who have destroyed the kingdoms of the Turks and have extended the sway of Church over lands previously possessed by the pagan. Let the holy sepulcher of our Lord and Saviour, which is possessed by unclean nations, especially arouse you, and the holy places which are now treated, with ignominy and irreverently polluted with the filth of the unclean. Oh, most valiant soldiers and descendants of invincible ancestors, do not degenerate; our progenitors., but recall the valor of your progenitors.

"But if you are hindered by love of children, parents, or of wife, remember what the Lord says in the Gospel, `He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me', 'Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.' Let none of your possessions retain you, nor solicitude for you, family affairs. For this land which you inhabit, shut in on all sides by the seas and surrounded by the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; nor does it abound in wealth; and it furnishes scarcely food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder and devour one another, that you wage war, and that very many among you perish in intestine strife.'

"Let those who have formerly been accustomed to contend wickedly in private warfare against the faithful fight against the infidel, and bring to a victorious end the war which ought already to have been begun. Let those who have hitherto been robbers now become soldiers. Let those who have formerly contended against their brothers and relatives now fight against the barbarians as they ought. Let those who have formerly been mercenaries at low wages now gain eternal rewards. Let those who have been exhausting themselves to the detriment both of body and soul now strive for a twofold reward"

"Let hatred therefore depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulcher-, wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves. That land which, as the Scripture says, `floweth with milk and honey' was given by God into the power of the children of Israel. Jerusalem is the center of the earth ; the land is fruitful above all others, like another paradise of delights. This spot the Redeemer of mankind has made illustrious by his advent, has beautified by his sojourn, has consecrated by his passion, has redeemed by his death, has glorified by his burial.

"This royal city, however, situated at the center of the earth, is now held captive by the enemies of Christ and is subjected, by those who do not know God, to the worship the heathen. She seeks, therefore, and desires to be liberated and ceases not to implore you to come to her aid. From you especially she asks succor, because as we have already said, God has conferred upon you above all other nations great glory in arms. Accordingly, undertake this journey eagerly for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the reward of imperishable glory in the kingdon of heaven.."

When Pope Urban had urbanely said thes and very similar things, he so centered in one purpose the desires all who were present that all cried out, " It is the will of God! I It is the. will of God 1 " When the venerable Roman pontiff heard that, with eyes uplifted to heaven, he gave thanks to God and, commanding silence with his hand, said:

"Most beloved brethren, today is manifest in you what the Lord says in the Gospel, `Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them'; for unless God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry; since, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry as one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted is in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let that then be your war cry in combats, because it is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: 'It is the will of God! It is the will of God!' [Deus vult! Deus Vult!]

"And ee neither command nor advise that the old or those incapable of bearing arms, undertake this journey. Nor ought women to set out at all without their husbands, or brother, or legal guardians. For such are more of a hindrance than aid, more of a burden than an advantage. Let the rich aid the needy and according to their wealth let them take with them experienced soldiers. The priests and other clerks, whether secular or regulars are not to go without the consent of their bishop; for this journey would profit them nothing if they went without permission. Also, it is not fitting that laymen should enter upon the pilgrimage without the blessing of their priests.

"Whoever, therefore, shall determine upon this holy pilgrimage, and shall make his vow to God to that effect, and shall offer himself to him for sacrifice, as a living victim, holy and acceptable to God, shall wear the sign of the cross of the Lord on his forehead or on his breast. When, indeed, he shall return from his journey, having fulfilled his vow, let him place the cross on his back between his shoulders. Thus shall ye, indeed, by this twofold action, fulfill the precept of the Lord, as lie commands in the Gospel, 'he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."'

[polemikos]

Ratzinger is one of the more orthodox, is he not?

[Dajjal]

I believe this is fallout from the divestiture of the Papal States. If John Paul II still had temporal rule over a bit of real estate, the Vatican would have a whole different perspective on the question of territorial sovereignty and response to agression.

[Aquinasfan]

From a Thomistic standpoint, he does not have the power to declare war because he is neither a sovereign, nor does he have care of any community.

Can we bring back St. Thomas, please?

[Catholicguy]

<> Cardinal Ratzinger is the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, but, what is that compared to some clown who writes for the "Seattle Catholic?"

I mean, who ya gonna call for your Doctrinal reasoning? CDF, Seattle Catholic, Ghostbusters? In America, there are literally HUNDREDS of websites existing to split us off from Union with Rome and legitimate authority.<>

[Catholicguy]

<> Name for me the Pope prior to Urban who called Christians to war

Starting from 1800, name for me which Popes you think should have called for war and what countries should they have called for to be attacked<>

[sinkspur]

I mean, who ya gonna call for your Doctrinal reasoning?

What is Ratzinger's rationale? He is against unilateral military action, but if Kofi Anan puts his blessing on it, Ratzinger's all for it.

The Vatican is clueless about modern warfare, just as it is about capital punishment.

And the American bishops, pontificating about Iraq in their current moral crisis, are laughingstocks.

It would be better if they just said nothing.

[ventana]

There appears to be only one subject they are especially good at saying nothing in particular about. V's wife.

[Catholicguy]

What is Ratzinger's rationale? He is against unilateral military action, but if Kofi Anan puts his blessing on it, Ratzinger's all for it.

<> Just War Doctrine is against unilateral military action when it comes to an unnecesary war. Saddam can't prevent a camel from urinating on his side of the Iraq and Kuwait border and we are supposed to think he threatens us? Come on...Remember Bush's "axis of evil speech? He included North Korea as one of the evil countries. They say they have nukes. So, which evil country is most dangerous to its neighbors?<>

The Vatican is clueless about modern warfare, just as it is about capital punishment.

<> The Pope is correct about both.<>

And the American bishops, pontificating about Iraq in their current moral crisis, are laughingstocks.

<> Well, what about the Pope pontificating against war on Iraq? I know he isn't as legitimate as Justice Scalia pontificating about Capital Punishment or Rush Limbaugh pontificating about Iraq, but, shouldn't we pay the Pope a little heed when he pontificates<>

It would be better if they just said nothing.

<> They have the duties to Teach, Sanctify and Rule. Their failures do not render nugatory the correct Christian Doctrine about life and death issues.<>

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Gee, isn't Ratzinger one of your idols who is gonna smack all the lavender bishops and usher in a huge revival?

[snicker]

You guys have become a joke, but go ahead, bow and kiss the ring.

[Desdemona]

Go find somebody else to sneer at please.

Blessed Mother, please, pray for this man.

[ventana]

You are a timid little soul, aren't you. V's wife.

[Catholicguy]

<> Was your former screenname one_particular_harbor?

Cardidnal Ratzinger sticks to the truth and the same name:)<>

[Desdemona]

Would you two stop it.

Yes, the church has a moral duty to speak up when it sees something perceived as wrong.

Yes, the church in naive when it comes to warfare.

No, we can't back down from this conflict. This is not a petty little dictator. This is someone with weapons capale of wiping out a HUGE number of people. And if the Vatican doesn't know that, it might be worth while for the US to explain it fully to them.

The terrorism is not going to stop until the terrorists and those supporting them are rooted out and neutralized. Plain and simple. The Atlantic and the Pacific are not enough to protect us anymore. Get used to it.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

No - my former screenname was not one_particular_harbor.

So you agree with Ratzinger's twist of the just war thing? His fantasy that most of the western world should still be a theocracy with the strings pulled from Vatican City?

You're rejected by this American - and in fact are rejected by a majority of Americans - mull that over. With each passing century, your bishops have, as a percentage of population, fewer peasants around to lick their boots, and of those peasants that remain, fewer of them take them seriously.

[malakhi]

Saddam can't prevent a camel from urinating on his side of the Iraq and Kuwait border and we are supposed to think he threatens us?

You may wish to check out this thread:

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs

[Catholicguy]

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20010428_ambassador-iraq_en.html

<> Link to the "clueless" Pope's address to the Ambassador of Iraq. Sinskpur, you'll have to excuse the Pope. He is a man of Peace<>

[malakhi]

And if the Vatican doesn't know that, it might be worth while for the US to explain it fully to them.

Perhaps they should send a copy of the report linked above to Ratzinger.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Man of peace? He is a man of institutional power and privilege, scandal and coverup.