Posted on 11/18/2002 7:33:28 PM PST by Land of the Irish
I know how my posts look, and have myself to blame for it.
It isn't that I don't like Catholics, its that I don't like what I perceive as the conservative Catholic deferral to clerical institutional power, and feel that it is not consistent with the spirit of the American people. Further, I feel that is what has led you to this crisis.
I know that when I say it, it often comes out inelegantly, and that I have often aimed to wound as opposed to enlighten.
CG, some of us are concerned about this...
That’s mighty big of you to realize that and your Christian charity is refreshing.
It isn't that I don't like Catholics, its that I don't like what I perceive as the conservative Catholic deferral to clerical institutional power,
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Catholic Church is a divine institution with a divine founder and as such, faithful Catholics adhere to its teachings. If you are referring to the recent scandal, no Catholic will say they approve of this. We realize the Church is comprised of human beings who, although may strive to be holy, are nevertheless sinful human creatures.
and feel that it is not consistent with the spirit of the American people. Further, I feel that is what has led you to this crisis.
The spirit of the American people could be described as a rugged individualism. This is a Protestant ethic and not a Catholic one. The Catholic ethic is more community oriented. So although we are disappointed in some of our clergy and want a "quick fix", we nonetheless remain faithful to the Church and its teachings. We do this because we have the promise of Christ that the gates of hell will never prevail against her.
CG, you're a clericalist. You insist that the Pope and a Cardinal (a Cardinal who admits he has no competence in the matter) are correct when it has been proven over and over that they are not correct when it comes to a sovereign nation defending itself.
Unless JPII is speaking ex cathedra, he may or may not have the guarantee of the Holy Spirit when he speaks.
And Ratzinger is never infallible, no matter what he says.
Amen, Brother!
I couldn't agree more.
The Catholic argument that the corruption of the Catholic hierachy simply reflects common human corruption is a very thin argument. I think that only a fool could conclude that it doesn't reflect that something is rotten at the very core of Catholicism as it is practiced. Theoretical Catholicism is just fine, but its implementation couldn't suck more.
And I thank God every day that this country was settled by Protestants. If America had been settled by Catholics, it would be a shadow of what it has become.
I also thank God for the Protestant Reformation. As I have said before, I shudder at what the world would be like today if the Protestants had not stood up to Catholic corruption.
Now, if you or Cardinal Law think either of those statements are inconsistent with my decision to be a Catholic, I could not care less. A spade needs to be called a spade.
One only has to look at Central and South America to see where Catholic ethics lead.
I can tell you this. While I was a Methodist, the church I attended brought in around 10 to 20 new members every month. The Catholic Church I joined just down the street brought in about 10 new members every six months.
The idea that there is a net postive migration from the Protestant Churches to the Catholic Church is ludicrous.
I was the only person in my RCIA class that wasn't joining the Church because of some frivolous reason such as wanting to be married to a Catholic in a Catholic Church.
And laughs at the credulous --- (like Karl Marx did at his "useful idiots") who keep him in power and in the style to which he's become accustomed.
Not sure why you would use my name in the same sentence as Cardinal Law and also not sure why your anger is directed at me. I'm glad you're Catholic. I also know you are in a Diocese run by a Bishop that needs to removed and believe me, it pains me also.
I gather from your post you are fine with the Theology but ticked off with the corruption. I am also ticked off I just show it differently than you do.
You are correct the Protestant Reformation led to the long overdue cleaning up of the Church. I also believe the current scandal will accomplish the same thing. Unfortunately maybe not as fast as we would like but it will happen. Please keep the faith.
After a couple of years, your church must have had congregants spilling out into the street.
Or, more likely, they didn't attend any more than they did when they weren't Methodist.
Like many Catholics.
So, what does that prove?
That may be true, but they're damn sure going somewhere, because mainline Protestant denominations are bleeding congregants like stuck pigs.
My anger is not directed at you, pegleg.
It is directed to all those who put forward the silly argument that the gross corruption of the Catholic hierarchy is simply the manifestation of bad men in high places. No, it's the manifestation of a culture that encourages a miscreant and corrupt hierarchy. It's something that has become an intrinsic part of the implementation of the Catholic Church, and it's something that calls for strong action by the faithful.
It seems to me that the history of the implementation of the Catholic Church is all about the hierarchy seeking to extend its power further and further over the faithful and the corruption to which that leads.
The interesting thing is that (as others have pointed out) few pay any attention to the hierarchy anymore (the Priests less than most). So, the idea that the Church is an "authority" to which Catholics look for guidance just isn't happening anymore and the hierarchy only has its self to blame. The Catholic hierarchy as it has been known is dead. It will never recover, and that's not a bad thing. Catholics will learn that the hierarchy as it has been known caused more problems than it was ever worth. My prediction is that we will eventually see a much smaller and more streamlined hierarchy that is less interested in the trappings of power and more interested in preserving true Catholic theology.
They're simply dropping organized religion. They are not switching to Catholic Churches.
If the Pope declared that it was no longer a sin to skip Mass, pews in every Catholic Church would be at least 50% empty very quickly.
No doubt. If priests had to "work" to draw Catholics to Mass, then we might get some better homilies.
The root of the problem is discipline, not doctrine.
It seems to me that the history of the implementation of the Catholic Church is all about the hierarchy seeking to extend its power further and further over the faithful and the corruption to which that leads.
I don't know if I would go that far but for sure there is a problem in the American Catholic Church. I believe we can trace it back to Bishop Hallinan and his protégé Cardinal Bernardin. But there is hope. In case you haven't read it, there is an interesting article on the RCF website called "The Beginning of The End of The Bernardin Legacy". Here is a link
My prediction is that we will eventually see a much smaller and more streamlined hierarchy that is less interested in the trappings of power and more interested in preserving true Catholic theology.
Lets hope and pray you're right.
I think the powers of the President have grown to grotesque, dangerous, insane and evil proportions. The President has no such powers under the Constitution. I don't care whether it was Wilson, or Roosevelt, or Truman, or Eisenhower, Or Kennedy, or Nixon, or Reagan, or Bush, or Clinton, or, now Bush2, they have ALL acted extraConstitutionally and putative Conservatives (William F. Buckley Jr. is "credited" with convinicing "us" it was "ok" to embrace the State as necessary to defeat Communism) have acquiesed if not succored this abomination and now we have an Empire and president that has more raw poltical power than did King Philip of Spain.<>
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