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Allah and the Real-World-Order
The ^ | Oct2002 | John Tng

Posted on 11/19/2002 6:47:42 PM PST by Podkayne

[This letter is long but it gives a framework for “seeing” much of what is happening prophetically in the world today. Several websites are given at the end for reference.]

Allah and the Real-World-Order

A friend from Jordan has been closely watching the plans to replace the Iraqi government with a constitutional monarchy.

The plan includes replacing Saddam with a descendent of the throne of Muhammad.

The reason for establishing the monarchy is that it is believed that only a Hash-e-mite prince would have the loyalty of enough Iraqis to maintain any degree of political stability in the region.

Press releases from the State Department, as well as Muslim sources, have been preparing the western media and the public for ‘endorsing’ the monarchy.

We are now being told that Jordanian King Abdullah is the west’s only true Muslim ally in the Middle East.

So the United States—the standard bearer of the republican worldview (the belief that all titles of nobility, of right, ought to be outlawed)—is willing in the twenty-first century to support the creation of a royal crown in Iraq.

[The only real debate over the crown is whether King Abdullah or one of his relatives, such as Prince Hassan or Prince bin Ali, will receive the throne. Prince Hassan is Abdullah’s brother and is the president of the Club of Rome. bin Ali is considered to be an intellectual and statesman. In turn, King Abdullah is a professional military officer and holds the throne of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.]

My friend is just a little short of being thrilled about the possibility that a Hashemite, and in particular, King Abdullah, may soon become the king of Iraq.

He is excited, not so much because of the inherent growth in Jordanian power which will be afforded by the coronation, but because King Abdullah is the heir of the imperial Hashemite throne.

This is significant for all Muslims, because the heir of the Hashemite throne has the greatest potential of anyone on Earth for reuniting the entire Arab world—not just Iraq. The reunification will be accomplished under the true Islamic crescent and star.

To my friend, the possible union of Iraq and Jordan could be the beginning of a process that will ultimately result in re-establishing the Khi-la-fah (Caliphate)—the Empire of Muhammad.

The Threat of the True ONE-WORLD-GOVERNMENT

The Khi-la-fah is a great dream of all pious Muslims and the driving vision behind al-Qadah.

The pursuit of the one-world-government of the Khilafah is required (fard) of all Muslims. The goal is the complete dismantling of all nations and the gathering of all people under the banner of the Islamic throne.

This goal will be accomplished when there are no other governments left, and everyone on earth takes the Islamic oath that “there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet.”

Without performing this blasphemy, and receiving the resulting seal of confession, you will not be able to buy or sell.

Airplanes and Pizza Parlors

The dream of the Khi-la-fah is so powerful it inspires some Muslims to fly planes into tall buildings and others to blow themselves up in Pizza Parlors.

These “terror” events take place because the Muslim worldview requires all Muslims to live under Islam—and to work to achieve the Islamic state by any means possible.

This drive has the effect of commissioning every Muslim to personal and corporate Jihad (Islamic war not holy war). The Jihad is so central to being a Muslim that Muslim culture is Jihad culture.

As incredible as it sounds, this also means that no Muslim can commit a terrorist act. Each and every act of violence to further the Islamic cause is an act of Jihad, not terrorism. Muslims believe that there is great eternal reward for such evil acts.

The Muslim Definition of Terrorism

This is why, when more than fifty Muslim nations met after 911 to define terrorism, they could not do so—even though they were under great pressure from the west to come up with a workable definition.

The west intended to use the definition that was to come out of the conference as a legal term. It would facilitate the west in its identifying and declaring particular Muslim groups as terrorist organizations. Once this was to be done, the west would then be able to perform “legal” acts of interdiction and war against these groups.

Despite this pressure, the conferees concluded that no Muslim could commit an act of terrorism. At the end of the conference, in their united “position statement”, they even announced that terrorism is something only non-Muslims can do!

By doing this, the conferees did more than thumb their noses at the west, they declared that the west is the land of terrorists.

Therefore, Muslims have a legal justification to protect themselves, and attack the terrorist non-Muslim’s of the world. They turned the conference upside down to its original intent.

You must realize that the Muslim statement was not made by “radical” Islam. It was made by our so-called moderate Muslim friends—governments that sent their chosen representatives to the conference. These are the governments we created after World War I, and that have not formally declared Jihad on us.

Even though they represent the nations that the west created, they are first of all Muslim, and their highest call is to the Khilafah. They want to live under Islam. But . . .

Islam is Dead!?!

In the Muslim worldview, Islam does not even exist today. It is dead. Islam is dead because the Islamic Empire was dismembered by the western powers during World War I. Its throne was abolished in 1924.

Since Islam is dead, no truly devout Muslim can fulfill his religious call until Islam is reestablished.

So now you know the true reason why so many Muslims across the world hate us so much: We slew Islam.

And there is absolutely nothing the west can do to appease their hatred.

Yossef Bodansky (director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare) has written that America’s support for Israel is not what drives bin Laden’s hatred for the west.

What drives bin Laden is that he grieves over the slaying of the Islamic Khilafah. His hatred is directed toward those who slew Islam.

He hates us because we are not Islam. He hates us because the Koran calls for bin Laden, and all Muslims, to hate us with all the zeal of a frenzied Jihad warrior.

This means that the Muslims would hate us as they do even if Israel did not exist. They would hate us as they do even if we had not defiled the Muslim “holy land” with our troops. They would still hate us as they do if we had stayed completely out of the Gulf War.

There is no means by which we can appease the Muslims short of wholesale surrender. Instead of resisting the re-establishment of the throne of Islam and its expansion over the whole world, we would have to support it.

Islam is the condition of living under the imperial throne of the Sharia Khilafah. Sharia is Muslim religious law, and the Khilafah is the ever-expanding empire of Muhammad that administers Sharia Law.

These terms may be hard for you now, but as an end-times Christian, you need to understand these basic terms and the general framework for the world system of Islam.


Most westerners do not understand Mideast history and assume that, because of so much twentieth century conflict, it is impossible to unite the Arab world. But the Arabs know better.

The truth is that the Arab world was united under the banner of the Imperial Khi-laf (Caliph) for nearly thirteen centuries.

The Khilaf is the Muslim equivalent of the Caesar, while the Khilafah is the Muslim equivalent of the Roman Empire. So the Caesar of Rome is equivalent to the Khilaf of the Khilafah (the Caliph of the Caliphate).

To live under the Khilafah is to live under Islam. If there is no Khilafah there is no Islam, even though there are more than a billion Muslims.

So, the era of Islam spanned from Muhammad in the seventh century until the western powers destroyed the Khilafah in the twentieth century. This means that less than eighty years ago the Islamic throne, established by Muhammad, was still in existence.

The Seventh King becomes the Eighth

The goal of all Muslims is to give rebirth to their empire.

Before we slew the Khilafah, the Arabs did not fight each other on a national level. This is not because Muslims are peaceful people. It is because there were no Arab nations with which to fight.

There were no national governments under Islam because there were no Arab nations. There were no Arab nations because the Islamic throne does not subject the nations it conquers—it destroys them.

One of the high “callings” of Islam is to destroy all the nations of the world.

This is why there has never been a Palestinian state, and why Jerusalem was never a capital of anything in the Muslim world—even though the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 637 A.D.

[This is when the seventh king of prophecy—Islam—seized Jerusalem from the sixth king—Rome. The seventh king latter slew the sixth king at Constantinople in the fifteenth century.]

The Arabs of Judea were never called Palestinians. Under the Khilafah, the Muslims had no conception of, much less desire for, a Palestinian identity that would provide the basis for a miniature Palestinian nation.

This is also why the Arabs living in Israel were first called Palestinians after the 1967 Six Day War. They were first called Palestinians by the western media. We were again imposing our worldview on their world. Again it has been to our own detriment.

Only this time, the Arabs saw a potential political and military coup. They realized that by playing along with the west they could use the western concepts for their non-western ends.

Arafat clearly proved in late September of 2000, that the Muslims have no intent of instituting a secular, western style, nation-state in the region—even though Arafat had led the west to believe so since the presidency of Jimmy Carter.

The West Creates Two Hornet’s Nest

When the western powers vanquished the Khilafah, it decided that there were so many non-Muslims in the Eastern Mediterranean region that they should have representation. Otherwise, it was a given that the Muslims would return to subjecting them to a second-class life under Sharia related legal doctrines.

So the planners of the Mandate decided to carve out a state for the Jews and a state for the Christians. These two states proved to be hornet’s nests in the heart of Muslim land.

At first, the Mandate was going to enable the Jews to establish a nation much larger than what actually came into existence. Originally, the borders included all of present day Jordan.

The Christians of the region were allowed to establish a nation just to the north of the Jews. That nation is now called Lebanon.

This plan existed as it did because there was no concept of a unique Muslim group called Palestinian Arabs—neither by the west nor by the Muslims. The regional Muslims still saw themselves as belonging to Islam, not Palestine.

They had no aspirations for a nation-state. A Muslim nation-state is contrary to the existence of Islam. It is contrary to the very heart of the Muslim worldview.

Just as we do not understand this Islamic political structure, they did not understand the western political structure. The sovereign nation-state, on which the western world had been built, had no meaning to them.

Striking at the Nests

The Koran precludes any Muslim lands ever being relinquished to non-Muslim powers. If any Muslim land falls to non-Muslims, it must be regained as soon as possible.

So, before Israel could be established, the Arabs put so much pressure on the west that much of the land that was originally promised to Israel was carved up between the Muslims.

The Eastern three-quarters of what was to have been Israel was turned into what is now Jordan. In the process, a throne was created by the west for a Hashemite crown—the original dynasty of the very Islamic Khilafah the west had just slain.

We slew the monster of Islam, but in the post-war process we turned around and foolishly provided the means for its rebirth. To our own judgment, we are continuing to facilitate its rebirth to this day.

We are going to remove a republican demigod in Iraq and replace him with an heir to the throne of Satan.

I am convinced that giving the Hashemite’s new power will ultimately facilitate the creation of the eighth king described in the riddle of Revelation 17. The eighth is the rebirth of the seventh, and he is the beast.

To see the beast you must solve the riddle of Revelation 17.

The Palestinian State Already Exists

The Arabs of Jordan are Palestinians in the same way as the Arabs of Arafat’s West Bank or the Gaza Strip. The only thing separating them is the Jordan River, which is no more than a creek in our part of the world.

In fact, the West Bank (Judea) and the Gaza strip were a part of Jordan until the 1967 Six Day War.

If Arafat really believed in a nation-state he would have wanted the West Bank to remain under Jordanian rule.

In reality, the disputed West Bank is not sufficient in size for establishing a viable nation-state. Arafat, and all Muslim leaders know this. The area is barely sufficient for creating an honest sized county, not an independent nation. Any demographer will tell you that it is destined to grinding poverty.

These, and other factors ultimately reveal that Arafat’s goal is not the well being of the Muslims of Canaan. His goal is not really to establish an independent state for the newly identified Palestinian people.

These Arab people already have an independent Palestinian state. It was created by the British Mandate. It is Jordan, and they were under its banner for nearly twenty years.

Arafat’s non-national Goal

Arafat’s true goal is dictated by the Koran. His goal is not the secular liberation of an ethnic minority. His goal is not a miniature nation-state. His goal is the goal of Islam. His goal is to destroy any non-Muslim power that gains a foothold in dar-al-Islam.

This is why a Muslim, who grew up and was educated in Egypt, changed his name to Arafat, and went to Judea to become one of the mu-ja-hi-deen of the Jihad.

So Arafat’s mandate for war against Israel is from Allah. It is a mandate against the existence of any non-Muslim power in what is, by dictate from the Koran, non-surrenderable Muslim land.

Furthermore, it is a mandate against any and all nation-states, not a mandate to establish a new Palestinian nation-state. He knows this. The so-called Palestinians know this. Islamists throughout the world know this.

Everyone knows this, except the myopic west and its media. We continue to support the most sinister cultural war in the world because of the west’s pseudo-intellectual support of the cause of freedom fighters in general.

The media will never open its eyes to see that the cause these so-called freedom fighters are fighting for is the most evil and oppressive means of human enslavement that Satan has ever devised.

The Nation Slayers of Islam

Arafat is not a nation maker—he is a nation slayer.

Arafat is not a western style freedom fighter—he is an Islamic enslaver.

Arafat will slay any nation he can that is not under the rule of the Muslim cause.

Events in Lebanon in the 1980’s show that Arafat’s goal is to regain all the dar-al-Islam land he can. Arafat and his PLO went north to Christian ruled Lebanon—and destroyed the nation.

Now the area is loosely ruled by Muslim Syria while various Islamic mujahideen armies roam freely over the land. Arafat’s goal was accomplished in Lebanon.

Neither Christian Lebanon, nor Jewish Israel exists on Muslim maps.

Arafat was able to destroy Christian Lebanon before he was able to destroy Jewish Israel, and the secular west did not even comprehend, or care to report, the true nature of what was going on.

The Muslims have slain several nations like this without the western media ever reporting it.

The western media thinks and reports in its own western terms, and in harmony with its own semi-agenda.

So it frames the religious Jihad in western secular revolutionary dogma. Time and again it has called the Jihad a war of liberation. Framing it in much the same aura as the American Revolution and giving it much of the same romantic mystique.

But these wars are not wars for independence, they are the ultimate satanic war for the enslavement of the world.

The Islamic Wolf

Wolves are sly. Thirty years ago, the Islam wolves learned to frame their purposes in terms of western secular revolutionary doctrine. This way the wolves could lure the libertine fools in the western media into serving their cause.

Time and again, the wolf has cried “oppression, oppression” and turned up its belly like a lamb. The wolf wants the world to believe that he is an oppressed victim.

The wolf is red and has learned to cloak its cause in terms that appeal to western pseudo-intellectuals.

Time and again the red wolf cries for a “just war of liberation” to win independence from one genocidal oppressor after another. But the wolf is the one who is genocidal. The wolf is the ultimate oppressor.

The wolf calls for the international community to support the creation of a miniature nation-state for its oppressed children.

The blind west fully lends its support to the red wolf in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Israel, Sri Lanka, and on and on. The west bombs Yugoslavia back to the stone-age for the red wolf. The red wolf’s deception works marvelously. It takes peace from the earth.

Its skill at deception grows and grows—taking bite after bite of nation after nation.

The western press jumps in on the side of the wolf time and again. The press can only think in a one dimensional, herd mentality. The western media is nothing more than meat in the teeth of the wolf.

Time and again the wolf cries, “I must liberate one more ethnic group”. But the wolf does not liberate, it is slaying nations one bite at a time, wearing them down.

No Islamic wolf, whether he is in the Middle East, or in the Balkans, or in India, or in the heart of Africa has any interest in a nation-state. And like any wolf, he will devour his patrons as soon as he can.

No Nations in Islam

All this means that Arabs, and specifically Arafat’s PLO are not fighting for the ultimate creation of a new Palestinian state.

The truth is that the western concept of the nation-state is totally at odds with Muslim civilization and what Arafat is trying to do. The fundamental beliefs of Arab civilization are at continual war, in principle, with the very existence of the nation-state.

To Muslims, all the lands of the nation-states are by definition, dar-al-harb—the abode of war. What war is this? It is the continual war against the rest of the world that is required of all faithful Muslims.

This war must be fought until the rest of the world surrenders to dar-al-Islam. The war in the Middle East is the Jihad, and the war in the Balkans is the Jihad.

This war is so dominant to Muslim theology that it creates a culture of Jihad.

Do you want to understand Muslim culture? Then you must understand Jihad culture. Jihad culture is Arab warrior culture, and Islam is its murder cult.

Ultimately, the Jihad mandate is the satanic counterpart to the great commission.

Islam does not mean “peace”. It does not even mean “submission” as we are often told. Islam is actually an Arab desert-warrior term that means “surrender”.

The ultimate goal of the Khilafah is the surrender of the entire world to the throne of Islam.

Under this throne, there are no nations. This is one thing that makes imperial Islam unique in history—it is the determined destruction (not subjugation) of all conquered nations.

And once a portion of Muslim land is lost, it must be regained as soon as possible.

So the establishment of the state of Palestine is not the Muslim goal. The exclusive re-establishment of dar-al-Islam throughout the region is the true goal.

This is what Israel is actually up against.

And the rest of the world, except for the United States, is universally on the side of the Muslim cause.

But in a critical way, the United States is accomplishing more for the Muslim cause than all the rest of the world. This is because the pressure from a “friend” to do wrong is inherently much greater than pressure from an enemy.

In function, President Bush has done magnitudes more to advance the cause of Islam than any other westerner has ever done. Just two days after the 911 bombing, he legitimized Islam before the entire world.

You may not realize it, but World War III did truly begin on September 11, 2001. In turn, the west lost World War III on September 13, 2001.

Soon the Lord is going to allow the rest of the world to experience what the Muslims want to do to Israel, and the great tribulation will be upon us. Blood is Thicker than Oil

There are two significant motives for making Abdullah, or one of his relatives, the king of Iraq.

On motive is rooted in the interest of the western powers and the other motive is rooted in the interests of all Muslims.

Ultimately, one interest will be satisfied, the other will be betrayed, because the two interests are in a primal conflict. Only one can be served.

The whole world knows that blood is thicker than oil.


To read more on the rebirth of the seventh king visit:

To trace the genealogy of Hashemite King Abdullah:

For information on the Hashemite president of the Club of Rome visit:

For information on the Hashemite cousin visit:

To visit the website of the Khilafah (the soon eighth king):

Be sure to scroll down and read the Welcome section and the draft constitution of the Khilafah. Be careful while at this site, it is Taliban and al-Qadah.

Is this believable?
1 posted on 11/19/2002 6:47:42 PM PST by Podkayne
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To: Podkayne
2 posted on 11/19/2002 6:55:01 PM PST by Arkie2
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To: Podkayne; 2sheep; Thinkin' Gal; RnMomof7; Jeremiah Jr; dennisw
Is this believable?


3 posted on 11/19/2002 7:05:28 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: Sir Gawain; monkeyshine; ipaq2000; Lent; veronica; Sabramerican; beowolf; Nachum; BenF; angelo; ...
"Arafat’s true goal is dictated by the Koran. His goal is not the secular liberation of an ethnic minority. His goal is not a miniature nation-state. His goal is the goal of Islam. His goal is to destroy any non-Muslim power that gains a foothold in dar-al-Islam."


4 posted on 11/19/2002 7:15:50 PM PST by dennisw
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To: dennisw; All; Texaggie79

5 posted on 11/19/2002 7:23:38 PM PST by BrooklynGOP
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To: Sir Gawain; Thinkin' Gal; Prodigal Daughter; shaggy eel; babylonian; Fred Mertz; ...
Yes, this is believable.

 Great Babylon: The Cry of the Watchman - Homepage - a short book

 Allah and the Real-World-Order
 The White Horseman of the Apocalypse
 Turkey and the Beast

Above are all the links by the author.  I have read everything I can find by him.  He has some fascinating concepts from history which should seriously adjust ideas people have about who the two beasts are.  He indicates that Great Babylon has been set up for an ambush.  Great Babylon obviously is America.  I disagree with his contention that Russia is insignificant.  Rather, the following two are Must Read links  Right click on our homepage for more d/v.  I've added more.

 Dream - Surprise attack - posted 15 Oct 02

 Red Alert! - 9 Aug 02 - Billy Blankenship

6 posted on 11/19/2002 7:27:24 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: dennisw
So the United States—the standard bearer of the republican worldview (the belief that all titles of nobility, of right, ought to be outlawed)—is willing in the twenty-first century to support the creation of a royal crown in Iraq.

This will come back to haunt us is a MAJOR error MAJOR

7 posted on 11/19/2002 7:57:58 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Podkayne; 2sheep; Jeremiah Jr; babylonian; Dallas; crystalk; Light Speed
Is this believable? <<<

We are now being told that Jordanian King Abdullah is the west’s only true Muslim ally in the Middle East.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

8 posted on 11/19/2002 8:36:39 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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To: RnMomof7
The evil one takes hold and grows. May God have mercy on us.
9 posted on 11/19/2002 10:32:34 PM PST by MarMema
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To: dennisw
Arafat is interested only in himself. If he pretends to be in favor of the Khilafa, it is only to drum up support.
10 posted on 11/20/2002 12:14:18 AM PST by xm177e2
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To: Podkayne
Read about the The Signs of Qiyamah.

A descendent of Muhammed is predicted by the Hadith to raise an army which will destroy the Dajjalic System (us) and establish Islam as the only religion. Jesus returns and fights at his side to help. Everyone is either converted or killed.

FR thread on the Army of the Mahdi.

11 posted on 11/20/2002 12:53:19 AM PST by Dajjal
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To: Thinkin' Gal
12 posted on 11/20/2002 7:14:36 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: Podkayne; 2sheep; Bobby777
Leviticus 24:11
And the Israelite woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD and cursed; and so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan.)...

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, A viper by the path, That bites the *horse's heels So that its rider shall fall backward.

Judges 5:17 Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.

*horse, See: Rev. 9:7

13 posted on 11/20/2002 8:23:59 AM PST by Jeremiah Jr
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To: 2sheep
Thanks. I sent this to my son. Hope he has time to read this article and to check out your links.
14 posted on 11/20/2002 12:31:35 PM PST by JudyB1938
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To: Thinkin' Gal; All
From the Book of Jubilee's...

"On the day that Isaac..the father of Jacob and Esau died...the SONS OF ESAU heard that Isaac had given Jacob.. "The Portion of the Elder".

alot of verses basically conveying this point next....The Sons Of Esau..confront him and demand an explantation as to why HE HAS LOST..the Elders portions.
Esau tries to bargain with them..this is their reply:

"We shall not hearken unto make peace with him[Ya'a kov..Jacob]...for our strength is greater than his strength..and we are more powerfull than he...
we shall go against him ..and slay him,and destroy him[ISRAEL]..AND HIS SONS...[America..Canada..Great Britian...Australia]...

and get this!!!..
"And if you will not go with us...WE SHALL DO HARM TO THEE!"

The next texts find them threating Esau..and then driving him to pledge....
The other nations are contacted..and mercinaries are drawn..and paid for..[Isnt that intertesting!]...Aram...Philistie..Moab...Ammon.

While all this is taking place...guess what Jacobs doing.?
He's mourning the death of Leah..his first wife.
He is unaware of the entire enterprise until the last others see Esau and the mercinaries coming up.

Where does this all take place....hold on folks...

Hebron !!
Esau and his army appear...Jacob is in a tower looking down at Esau..and the banter begins...and its all about oaths made..Jacob tires to get Esau to stand by his oath made earlier on.
Esau basically renegs on the entire framework..
goes thur a diatribe of..if animals can shed their spots then I will remember the oath and blah blah...basically ..Esau says theirs no mechanism on this planet to be seen which can change my kill you!

Judah now speaks up..and chides his father Jacob to kill Esau rigth now..right there!

Jacob pulls his bow back..and puts an arrow into Esau's right breast..and slew him!
Then Judah and the clans swept forth ..and slaughtered the rest on the field..coming down on them from the higher ground.

This is what really happened folks.... It is also a prophetic story...and has spiritual meaning...which will see its dualistic reality appear again.
36 AND 72.....Ha Shem passed between the Halves...while Avraham slept..
Ha'Shem was a Fire.

15 posted on 11/20/2002 2:07:55 PM PST by Light Speed
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To: Light Speed
BUMP for wakefulness and watchfulness.
16 posted on 11/21/2002 1:36:26 AM PST by happygrl
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To: happygrl
17 posted on 11/21/2002 8:19:53 AM PST by bigaln2
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To: Light Speed
The parallels between the nation of islam and the Christian world should interest everyone. It is a matter of belief and perception as to which is based on truth. One thing is for sure, The return on the promised Savior of the World, will be a pivotal event in both worlds, and will result in a significant population drop for the two groups.
18 posted on 11/23/2002 4:10:40 AM PST by wita
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To: 2sheep
10 horns bump
19 posted on 11/23/2002 4:33:29 PM PST by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: wita
>The parallels between the nation of islam and the Christian world should interest everyone.

True Christians worship the G~d of the Bible and are aligned with Jews.  Muslims worship Allah who is Satan.  That is not a parallel.  Those are pole opposites.

20 posted on 11/23/2002 8:44:32 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep; All
Can you (anyone) elaborate on to what these refer?
Islam is dead because the Islamic Empire was dismembered by the western powers during World War I. Its throne was abolished in 1924.

What throne?

[This is when the seventh king of prophecy—Islam—seized Jerusalem from the sixth king—Rome. The seventh king latter slew the sixth king at Constantinople in the fifteenth century.]

Who does he think Kings 1-5 are?

In turn, the west lost World War III on September 13, 2001.

To what event is he refering?

Thanks for any help.
21 posted on 11/23/2002 9:47:32 PM PST by Starwind
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To: 2sheep; All
I found my answers in your links. Thanks
22 posted on 11/23/2002 10:09:10 PM PST by Starwind
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To: 2sheep
From Turkey and the Beast, the author cites the empires are:
1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Media-Persia
5. Macedonia/Graeca (Greece)
6. Rome
7. Islam
8. Islam Revived (the beast of Revelation 17)
Which I would revise to:
The empires are:
1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Judean
4. Babylon
5. Media-Persia
6. Macedonia/Graeca (Greece)
7. Rome (current empire when John wrote Revelation)
8. Islam (Babylon Revived, the beast of Revelation 17
I think this is a better fit because John said:
...because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. Rev 17:8b
and John said 'now is not' when Rome was the empire, hence the 8th king needed to have existed prior to John's day, not during John's day, and (perhaps Isalm fulfills prophecy) existing again after John's day. Casting Islam, as the 7th king and again revived as the 8th king, does not meet the criteria of scripture that the revived kingdom existed prior to John's day.

Further, I believe the Babylon in Revelation is Babylon, and not Rome, or the RCC, etc. The above fits with a more straight forward reading of scripture, hence to me is a 'better fit'. As Judea controlled the promised land when it was the empire, that does not conflict with the authors criteria either.

That said, much of what the author writes is geopolitical speculation, which bears further scrutiny. But I've always liked Islam as one of the end-time key players, though I tend to suspect Islam as "The Whore of Babylon" as I've previously posted here.

23 posted on 11/23/2002 10:43:03 PM PST by Starwind
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To: Starwind
If you read the book -- Great Babylon: The Cry of the Watchman -- you will see the author draws a distinction between empires and nations.  Israel/Judea has not yet become an empire as he defines it.  It will in the 1,000 year reign to come.

Post # 81 on this thread -- The U.S. -- A Modern Babylon? -- lists 99 reasons America is Babylon.  At the bottom of that thread, it links to Thread Two entitled  Who are the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation? where there is more on the same subject. There are whole books and websites on the subject of America-Babylon.  The beasts are being revealed and will be a surprise to many.

You might write to the author.  He is on at least one forum and appears willing to talk.  :)

24 posted on 11/24/2002 1:49:43 AM PST by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep
I'll check it out. Thank you.
25 posted on 11/24/2002 6:27:39 AM PST by Starwind
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To: 2sheep
I will bet you would get an argument from any muslim regarding the God they profess to worship. Like I said it is perception, and nothing you or I say, is going to change the facts, or the truth, which will surely be revealed at the appropriate time.
26 posted on 11/24/2002 7:00:50 AM PST by wita
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To: 2sheep
It would seem Stewart Best's writings are no longer hosted at, and only two of his letters are at, so do you have any current links on Best's writings?
27 posted on 11/24/2002 7:01:39 AM PST by Starwind
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To: Starwind; 2sheep
Further, I believe the Babylon in Revelation is Babylon

Exactly. What nation is readying herself to take over Babylon, i.e. Iraq?

28 posted on 11/24/2002 8:09:56 AM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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To: wita; Starwind; Thinkin' Gal; Jeremiah Jr; Prodigal Daughter; TrueBeliever9; shaggy eel; dennisw
>I will bet you would get an argument from any muslim regarding the God they profess to worship. Like I said it is perception, and nothing you or I say, is going to change the facts, or the truth, which will surely be revealed at the appropriate time.

There is NO moral equivalency between Islam and Judaism/Christianity, i.e. between Muslims and their victims.  To think so is to think like a liberal.  To act like you have to come to consensus with the lie of tolerance, multiculturalism and ecumenism is to embrace whole hog the Strong Delusion.

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The Islamic agenda is for world control and they define "Peace" as world submission to Islam.

Yeshua (Jesus) said,  Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Let's look at the fruit of Islam:

Tolerating Intolerance: The Challenge of Fundamentalist Islam in Western Europe -- This an excellent link on the effect of Muslim immigration in Europe.  MUST READ

Also note the similar effect in Denmark.   SOMETHING ROTTEN IN DENMARK? - by Daniel Pipes.  Excerpt:

August 27, 2002 -- A Muslim group in Denmark announced a few days ago that a $30,000 bounty would be paid for the murder of several prominent Danish Jews, a threat that garnered wide international notice. Less well known is that this is just one problem associated with Denmark's approximately 200,000 Muslim immigrants. The key issue is that many of them show little desire to fit into their adopted country.

For years, Danes lauded multiculturalism and insisted they had no problem with the Muslim customs - until one day they found that they did. Some major issues:

>* Importing unacceptable customs:

Here is an unacceptable imported custom --

On our Australian 60 minutes last night was a woman who was raped by three at a train station then carted off to a park then raped by 25 individuals,Lebanese Muslims,they all called each other on mobile phones to come join the fun,at one stage they even hosed her off with a fire hose before the last 2 raped her. They called her 'Australian pig' etc.

 21 posted on 8/11/02 5:54 PM Pacific by Crazymonarch

 Small Scams Probed for Terror Ties

 Indonesia: Persecuted Christian Men, Women and Children & Forced Circumcision by Muslims

 Indonesian Christians Forcibly Converted to Islam

 Infant rape crisis jolts South Africa: 21,000 incidents in 2000: "Raping babies does not cure AIDS"

 70 girls attacked by Arabic rape gangs in Australia

These things ought not to be!  But we are approaching the Great try the saints and fry the ain'ts!

Coming to a war theatre in your home town...

29 posted on 11/24/2002 5:27:48 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: Starwind; Thinkin' Gal
The links I have for Stewart Best are now dead links because he changed his site.  You might email him or I could give you the document titles and you could google them for mirror sites, if any.  I have a ton of America-Babylon links but some are expired and other websites have closed down.  Further, I stopped posting them because many would not endure them and have been feasting a Jezebel's Diner* and the noise there has deafened their ears.  Try, "Mystery Babylon" "America" in a advanced Google search.

* See #20 here:  What Jezebel says to the Church

30 posted on 11/24/2002 5:39:27 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep; It'salmosttolate; Thinkin' Gal
My interspersed statements are in italics as follows. All other text is the author's or excerpts from scripture. Here is the post which I'm critiquing.

The poster never identified the source or author of these 99 parameters, so I don't know with whom I'm taking issue.

I sorted the 99 statements by leading scripture verse number (usually) so as to group them by reference to facilitate easier validation and analysis. The sorting is in scripture order with the author's statements indented below the scripture verse followed by my comments if I had a substantial disagreement. Suffice it to say I found the author's viewpoint entirely unsubstantiated, save for the possibility that America does possess many traits of Babylon described in Rev 18. But then so would Great Britain, Japan, Germany, Russia...the EU, etc. Nearly any contemporary G10 country or trading block like the EU or OPEC will demonstrate a fair degree of correspondence, as would any end-time corrupt trading nation. There are no 'good' nations in the end, only the Church.

My central criticisms are that:

1) Isaiah's and Jeremiah's 6th century BC prophecies of Cyrus taking Babylon in the 5th century BC have consistently been construed as applying to end-times Babylon. There is no support for this approach, either scripturally or historically.
2) The author seems to have started from a premise of wanting '99 parameters' of contemporary America, and then finding which OT or Rev verses can be forced to fit, and then randomizing that list. Starting from a search of scripture for passages applicable to end-times Babylon and then comparing those passages to contemporary America would yield an entirely different result, not the least of which would be foregoing the 'top 99 reasons' list.
3) There are additional criteria to identify end-times Babylon, such as John seeing her in a desert and who would be the Whore if America is Babylon. These aspects were ignored.

The subject is serious, but the author's treatment is frivolous.

Here then is the Author's (or Poster's) "closing" statement, which I've moved here to remind the reader of what the Author purports to demonstrate with the 99 verses cited as being "but a few of the many parameters listed ... that America does now or is in the process of fulfilling each and every one..."

These are but a few of the many parameters listed to help us identify this last great nation that the Lord calls BABYLON THE GREAT. America does now, or is in the process of fulfilling each and every one of them. No other nation upon the face of the earth can fulfill these parameters. AMERICA IS BABYLON THE GREAT. There would likewise be a series of SIGNS that would would begin to emerge that would give BIRTH TO, and WATCH THE RISE OF, as well as THE FALL OF AMERICA-BABYLON.


Isaiah 13:5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven-- The LORD and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land.

79. Babylon's enemy will lie on the opposite side of the world, over the poles (Isa 13:5)

Isaiah 13 does have references to end-time Babylon. However, just as plausible here is that Babylon is Babylon (Iraq?) and America is attacking Babylon with missiles and high altitude jets; that America is not Babylon but rather is Babylon's enemy.

Isaiah 14:4-6 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression.

60. THE KING OF BABYLON is called LUCIFER, the ANTICHRIST (Isa 14:4-6).
61. The King of Babylon will rule from THE GREAT CITY BABYLON (Isa 14:4-6; Rev 17: 18).
65. This entity will rise up and use the military power of Babylon the nation to RULE THE WORLD (Isa 14:4-6; Hab 1 & 2, Rev 13, 17).

There is nothing in Isa 14:4-6 which construes Lucifer as the King of Babylon, and these ISA 14:4-6 passages were fulfilled in 5th century BC.

Isaiah 14:20 You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

15. Babylon destroys her own land, with pollution and waste (Isa 14:20, 18:2, 7).

This is a 5th century BC Babylon reference. This is not a reference to pollution in the sense we know it today.

Isaiah 18:2 1 Woe to the land shadowed with buzzing wings, Which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia, 2 Which sends ambassadors by sea, Even in vessels of reed on the waters, saying, "Go, swift messengers, to a nation tall and smooth of skin, To a people terrible from their beginning onward, A nation powerful and treading down, Whose land the rivers divide."

12. Babylon is nation "peeled", or timbered, a land of open fields (Isa 18:2).
13. Babylon is land quartered by mighty rivers (Isa 18:2).
14. Babylon is a land that is measured out, and populated throughout (Isa 18:2).

Obviously, Isaiah 18:2 is a prophecy against Ethiopia (or Cush), not Babylon, hence not end-times America.

Isaiah 47

75. Babylon is a VIRGIN NATION, untouched by major war (Isa 47:1).
2. Babylon would the QUEEN AMONG THE NATIONS (Isa 47:5,7; Rev 18:7).
5. Babylon is called a lady, and has the symbol of the Lady (Isa 47:7-9).
93. The people of Babylon would think they are God's elect and eternal (Isa 47:7-8, Rev 18:7).
97. The nation Babylon dwells carelessly before the Lord (Isa 47:8).
98. Babylon becomes proud, haughty, and does not consider her end (Isa 47:7-8).
99. Babylon deals in the occult, in sorceries and drugs (Isa 47:9, 12; Rev 18:23)
73. Babylon is a nation of higher education and learning (Isa 47:10, implied throughout).
85. The enemy of Babylon will come into Babylon unnoticed (Isa 47:11, Jer 50:24; 51:2, 14).
42. Babylon labored in the occult from her very inception (Isa 47:12).
48. The people of Babylon are deep into astrology and spiritism (Isa 47:12; Rev 18:2).
50. Babylon is a nation of religious confusion (Isa 47:12-13).
38. Babylon is a REPUBLIC or a DEMOCRACY, it is ruled by many counsels (Isa 47:13).
39. Babylon's governmental system breaks down (Isa 47:13).
40. Babylon is bogged down with deliberations and cannot govern properly (Isa 47:13).
41. Babylon's leaders use astrology, seers and mystics for guidance (Isa 47:13; Rev 18:2).

All of Isaiah 47 is in the context of Isaiah 45 (in which Cyrus is prophesied to take Babylon) through 47, to punish Babylon for cruelty against the Jews and arrogance against God. Again this is 5th century BC Babylon in view, not end-times Babylon, and hence not America.

Jeremiah 50:2-3 Declare among the nations, Proclaim, and set up a standard; Proclaim--do not conceal it-- Say, "Babylon is taken, Bel is shamed. Merodach is broken in pieces; Her idols are humiliated, Her images are broken in pieces.' 3 For out of the north a nation comes up against her, Which shall make her land desolate, And no one shall dwell therein. They shall move, they shall depart, Both man and beast.

95. The people of Babylon would grow mad upon their idols (Jer 50:2, 38; Hab 2:18).
78. Babylon will have a major enemy to her north (Jer 50:3, 9, 41).

Again, this is the 5th century BC capture of Babylon by Cyrus (who attacked from the North), not end-times Babylon.

Jeremiah 50:6 My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.

91. Babylon would be a home to multitudes of Jews who leave (Jer 50:4-6, 8; 51:6, 45)
46. Babylon's Christian leaders lead their flock astray in prophecy and salvation (Jer 50:6; implied Rev 18:2).
92. The people of Babylon would not know their true identity (Jer 50:6, implied throughout).

Babylon had no Christian leaders. Under Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon had Chaldeans who sacked the Northern and Southern Kingdoms and took Jews into captivity. The captive Jews are the lost sheep lead astray by their Jewish leaders. The Jews knew their identity and they weren't 'people of Babylon', they were captives.

Jeremiah 50:7 All who found them have devoured them; And their adversaries said, "We have not offended, Because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, The LORD, the hope of their fathers."

51. Babylon turns upon its own people and imprisons and slays them by millions (Jer 50:7,33; 51:35; 39; Dan 7:25; Rev 13:7; 17:6; 18:24).
52. Babylon sets of detention centers for Jews and Christians and rounds them up for extermination (Jer 50:7, 33; 51:35, 49; Rev 17:6; 18:24).

Babylon did not turn on its own people. Babylon captured and/or killed Jews. They were not 'exterminated', but killed in battle or flight (which God forewarned them not to attempt), and there were no Christians when Nebuchadnezzar took them captive. This is history and prophecy fulfilled in the 5th century BC.

Jeremiah 50:9 For behold, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon An assembly of great nations from the north country, And they shall array themselves against her; From there she shall be captured. Their arrows shall be like those of an expert warrior; None shall return in vain.

84. The enemy of Babylon will also have a huge aviation military machine (Jer 50:9, 14, Rev 18:8, 18 implied throughout).
82. The enemy of Babylon will have nuclear missiles capable of reaching Babylon (Jer 50:9, 14,; Rev 18:8, 18).
80. The enemy of Babylon will be a FEDERAL OF NATIONS (Jer 50:9).

These are references to Cyrus who attacked Babylon from the north and took it in 539 BC. Cyrus captured Babylon with horses and chariots, not planes and nuclear missiles. Again, this is history and prophecy fulfilled in the 5th century BC.

Jeremiah 50:11 Because you were glad, because you rejoiced, You destroyers of My heritage, Because you have grown fat like a heifer threshing grain, And you bellow like bulls,

45. Babylon turns upon its heritage and destroys it all in the end (Jer 50:11).
90. Babylon will have been a huge missionary nation for Jesus Christ (Jer 50:11; 51:7).

Babylon didn't have a heritage. The reference is to God's heritage, the Jews, and Babylonians were not missionaries for Christ, not in 6th century BC when Jeremiah prophesied.

Jeremiah 50:12 Your mother shall be deeply ashamed; She who bore you shall be ashamed. Behold, the least of the nations shall be a wilderness, A dry land and a desert.

1. Babylon would be the youngest and greatest of the end time nations (Jer 50:12).
44. Babylon was born as a CHRISTIAN NATION (Jer 50:12).
53. Babylon has a mother nation that remains in existence from her birth to death (Jer 50: 12).
56. The mother of Babylon will be a state of major decline as the end nears (Jer 50:12).

This verse is construed to give rise to the greatest Christian nation of end-times?

25. Babylon is a nation of farmers and harvests huge crops (Jer 50:16, 26, 27).

So is Canada.

Jeremiah 50:17 "Israel is like scattered sheep; The lions have driven him away. First the king of Assyria devoured him; Now at last this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones."

81. The enemy of Babylon will be largely Moslem in make-up (Jer 50:17; Rev 17:16; Psalms 83:5-12).

The enemy in view here is the enemy of Israel, not of Babylon.

4. Babylon would be the HAMMER OF THE WHOLE EARTH (Jer 50:23; Rev 18:23).

This is 5th century BC, juxtaposing it with Rev 18 doesn't change that.

Jeremiah 50:26 Come against her from the farthest border; Open her storehouses; Cast her up as heaps of ruins, And destroy her utterly; Let nothing of her be left.

20. Babylon is a nation filled with warehouses and granaries (Jer 50:26).
23. Babylon is noted for her cattle, sheep and other livestock (Jer 50:26, 27; Rev 18:13).

The verse does not imply "filled", and "warehouses, and graneries" is an unsupported elaboration.

87. Babylon will have all of her borders cut off, and there will be no way of escape (Jer 50:28; 51:32).

Jer 50:28 has no such inference, and it's 5th century BC Babylon as well.

76. Babylon has a vast military machine (Jer 50:36; 51:30; Hab 1 & 2, Rev 13:4).

This describes the 5th century BC Babylonian "military".

Jeremiah 50:37 A sword is against their horses, Against their chariots, And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst; And they will become like women. A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.

22. Babylon is noted for her horses (Jer 50:37).
36. Babylon is nation filled with a "mingled" people (Jer 50:37).
66. Babylon is a huge producer and exporter of automobiles (Jer 50:37; Rev 18:13).

Nebuchadnezzar's army was noted for fierce horseman and charioteers. Babylon is not distinguished by horses and is not a producer of automobiles. This is the Babylon that was conquered by Cyrus, horses and all.

Jeremiah 50:47 [There is no such verse enumerated Jer 50:47]

77. Babylon will be instrumental in the setting up of Israel in the Middle East, and is the home of God's people (Jer 50:47; 51:45).

Regardless, Israel in the Middle East is already setup, since 1948, and it was the UK that was instrumental.

Jeremiah 51:13

16. Babylon is a land rich in mineral wealth (Jer 51:13).
18. Babylon is the leading exporting nation in the world (Jer 51:13; Rev 18).
34. Babylon is a coastal nation and sits upon MANY WATERS (Jer 51:13).


Jeremiah 51:38

57. Babylon is considered to be a lion's whelp (Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38).


6. Babylon would be the praise of the WHOLE EARTH (Jer 51:41).

But in 5th century BC.

7. Babylon is center of world trade (Jer 51:44; Rev 17:18; 18:19).

But in 5th century BC.

Jeremiah 51:51 We are ashamed because we have heard reproach.Shame has covered our faces, For strangers have come into the sanctuaries of the LORD's house.

47. Babylon's Christian leaders are "strangers" in the Lord Houses of Worship (Jer 51:51).

Again this is Jeremiah in the 6th century BC speaking about the Jewish temple. This is not a reference to either leaders or end-times Christians.

Jeremiah 51:53 Though Babylon were to mount up to heaven, And though she were to fortify the height of her strength, Yet from Me plunderers would come to her," says the LORD.

28. Babylon has a huge aviation program (Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10).
29. Babylon's skies are filled with the whisper of aircraft wings (Isa 18:1; Jer 51:53).
30. Babylon has a huge space industry, has "mounted up to the heavens" (Jer 51:53).
31. Babylon fortifies her skies with a huge military aviation program (Jer 51:53).
32. Babylon is portrayed as a leading in high tech weapons and abilities (Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10; implied throughout).

'mount up to heaven' is a reference to the tower of Babel (how Babylon got its name), not aerospace weapons. Reiterating essentially the same point 5 times based on the same verse is redundant and does not further identify, it is needlessly repetitious.

74. Babylon is a nation with a GREAT VOICE in world affairs (Jer 51:55)

Yes, but in 5th century BC.

Daniel 7:4 The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.

54. The mother of Babylon has the symbol of the LION (Dan7:4; Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38; Psalms 17:12).
55. The mother of Babylon will rule over her daughter her entire life (Dan 7:4; Jer 50:12).
58. Babylon will have the symbol of the EAGLE and builds her nest in the stars (Dan 7:4 EAGLE WINGS; Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53).

This is Daniel's 1st Beast, with parallel visions in chapters 2 and 8, and is generally believed to refer to 6th century BC Babylon (different from the 4th beast which is an end-times kingdom) and not an end-times Babylon and hence could not identify America.

Daniel 7:7 After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast- terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

63. This world entity will be a diverse entity, different than all other ruling bodies of the world (Dan 7:7, 23).
64. This entity will be a TREATY POWER ENTITY (Dan 7:7, 23 DIVERSE).

This is Daniel's 4th Beast, an end-times prophetic vision yet unfulfilled. Some believe this beast is 1st century AD Rome, but either way, it doesn't identify Babylon, and hence not America either.

Daniel 11:21 He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue.

86. Babylon will be filled with her enemies brought in under the guise of peace (Dan 11:21).

This is a reference to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who seized power of Syria (175-163) of the Seleucid dynasty, not end-times Babylon.

Revelation 18

43. BabylonAmerica falls to the occult just before her end by nuclear fire (Rev 18:2)
59. BabylonAmerica turns totally antichrist and is the leading antichrist power at the end (Rev 18:2; Isa 14:4-6).
49. BabylonAmerica becomes the home of all antichrist religions in the world (Rev 18:2).
8. BabylonAmerica would grow to be the richest nation in the world (Rev 18:3, 7, 19, 23).
9. All nations that traded with BabylonAmerica would grow rich (Rev 18:3).
96. The people of BabylonAmerica would go into deep sins of all kinds (Rev 18:5).
94. The people of BabylonAmerica would enjoy the highest standard of living in the world (Rev 18:7).
71. BabylonAmerica is noted for her iron and steel production (Rev 18:12).
24. BabylonAmerica is noted for her fine flour and mill operations (Rev 18:13).
69. BabylonAmerica is a huge importer and exporter of spices (Rev 18:13).
35. BabylonAmerica trades with all who have ships in the sea year round (Rev 18:17-18).
33. BabylonAmerica is a nation filled with warm water seaports (Rev 18:17-19).<
26. BabylonAmerica is a huge exporter of MUSIC (Rev 18:22).
27. BabylonAmerica's musicians are known around the world (Rev 18:22)
68. BabylonAmerica is noted for her jewelry of gold and silver (Rev 18:22).
70. BabylonAmerica is a huge exporter of fine marble products (Rev 18:22).
10. The merchants of BabylonAmerica were the GREAT MEN OF THE EARTH (Rev 18:23).
72. BabylonAmerica has huge corporations that have bases around the world (Rev 18:23, implied throughout)

None of the references in Revelation 18 identifies Babylon as anything other than Babylon and it's characteristics. I won't repeat Rev 18 verse by verse here, but the phrasing of the characteristics in the list seems predisposed or biased to match America, rather than simply state what scripture says. While some of the characteristics are true of America, some are not. Most instructive is to replace Babylon with America in the author's list of Revelation cites and assess the interpretation. Again while much is true of America, it is also true of any G10 country or the EU, or OPEC, etc.

References to whole chapters and "Implied Throughout"

3. Babylon would be the most powerful nation in the world (Isa 47, Jer 50, 51, Rev 18).
11. Babylon is a huge nation, with lands, cities, and great wealth (implied throughout).
89. Babylon is land vast land with huge cities, towns and villages throughout (Implied throughout)
17. Babylon is a the leading agricultural nation of the world (Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).
19. Babylon is the leading importing nation of the entire world.(Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).
21. Babylon is the leading INDUSTRIAL NATION OF THE WORLD (Isa 13, 47, Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).
37. Babylon is a SINGULAR NATION founded upon OUT OF MANY, ONE (Isa 13, 47, Jer 50, 51, Hab 1).
62. A world government entity will rise up to rule the world from BABYLON THE CITY (Isa 14; Hab 2, Rev 13, 17, 18).
67. Babylon is a nation of CRAFTSMEN, experts in their trade (Jer 50, 51, Rev 18:22).
83. The enemy of Babylon will be noted for her cruelty (Isa 13, 14, Jer 50, 51, Rev 17, 18).
88. Babylon will be destroyed by nuclear fire (Implied throughout).

I won't bother to further critique these 'parameters', having already stated my essential criticisms above. The parameters are quite specific whereas the chapter reference or 'implied throughout' is too overly broad to lend itself to a verse by verse refutation. But I did want to faithfully reproduce them and account for them somewhere, so here they are.

In closing, I'd like to see the bar raised on the standard of research and writing that goes into this kind of material. The above lends credence to the accusation that Evangelicals, Pentecostal, 'rapturists', etc belong in the tin-foil hat crowd. This is a serious subject and lends itself to careful research, and the stakes are high. This is after all our Lord's Word we are bantering about, His lost sheep we are endeavoring to reach, His bride we are trying to edify, and His fruit we are trying to bear.

31 posted on 11/25/2002 1:35:37 PM PST by Starwind
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To: Starwind
A red flag was waved and you obviously didn't get the message.

SOL on 8/23/01

32 posted on 11/25/2002 3:34:45 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep; Starwind; Jeremiah Jr; the-ironically-named-proverbs2

An earnest deposit* picture of...

Revelation 18:15-19

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


*728 arrhabon {ar-hrab-ohn'}
of Hebrew origin 06162; TDNT - 1:475,80; n m
AV - earnest 3; 3

1) an earnest
1a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment
that the full amount will subsequently be paid

06162 `arabown {ar-aw-bone'}
from 06148 (in the sense of exchange); TWOT - 1686b; n m
AV - pledge 3; 3

1) pledge, security

06148 `arab {aw-rab'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1686; v
AV - surety 9, meddle 2, mingled 2, pledges 2, becometh 1, engaged 1,
intermeddle 1, mortgaged 1, occupiers 1, occupy 1, undertake 1; 22

1) to pledge, exchange, mortgage, engage, occupy, undertake for, give
pledges, be or become surety, take on pledge, give in pledge
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to take on pledge, go surety for
1a2) to give in pledge
1a3) to exchange
1a4) to pledge
1b) (Hithpael)
1b1) to exchange pledges
1b2) to have fellowship with, share

33 posted on 11/25/2002 3:52:43 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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To: Thinkin' Gal
What nation is readying herself to take over Babylon, i.e. Iraq?

I try not to post when I don't have something to add, but talk about a head-smacker! THWACK! I'm still seeing stars over that statement.

34 posted on 11/25/2002 4:20:01 PM PST by Bat_Chemist
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

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