Skip to comments.Do babies go to Heaven?
Posted on 12/29/2002 9:23:52 PM PST by PFKEY
Hope no one minds the vanity too much.
I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.
Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.
Who does, if they don't?
Children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these."
Matthew 18:1-5I hope this answers your question :-D
The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
Note additionally that the "144k" of Revelation are followed by:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9.
His mercy endures forever, Amen.
Limbo has never been a doctrine of the Church, it was a theological theory put forth by St. Augustine. The basis of his theory was an infant who dies unbaptized would have the stain of original sin on their soul. The official position of the Church is we trust these children to the mercy of God.
1-2 records returned of 2 matching NEWBORN .
24. "By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:
Whoever teaches must become 'all things to all men' [1 Cor 9:22], to win everyone to Christ. . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as NEWBORN babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers.... Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct.[Roman Catechism, Preface II; cf. ; .]"To view the context, please visit
2271. "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the NEWBORN to perish.[Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320.]
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.[GS 51 # 3.] "
Here is the one verse Calvinism killer:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the DEVIL and his angels:
NOBODY was predestinated for hell, it wasn't even created for people. It was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Predestination is not for salvation, it is what already saved people are predestinated to.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Not only was the predestination predicated on God's foreknowledge (He KNEW it would happen but didn't MAKE it happen), but it wasn't salvation at al, it was the CONFORMING, et al, that was predestinated for those who were already saved.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated US UNTO the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
It's US (the saved) who are predestinated, UNTO the adoption.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Here it's the inheritance, and these are the only places any form of the word "predestinate" appear in scripture.
Man is depraved, but not totally. Otherwise no one would ever give to disabled vets. Every man who crossed paths with your wife would try to rape her.
Certainly the will is not hindered, God unquestionably gave man a free will.
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, WHOSOEVER WILL COME after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.
B. R. Lakin said that, "I believe in election. God voted for me, the devil voted against me, and now it's up to me to cast the deciding ballot!" Amen!
This is very similar to irresistible grace below, and is refuted by the same scriptures.
The preposterous blasphemy that Jesus didn't die for everyone.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.
Believers are set apart from "all men". Jesus died for ALL MEN, not just the elect, but SPECIALLY for them.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
That covers just about everybody (unless there's a spaceflight in progress perhaps).
Anyone who sins knows that they can resist God. Either that, or God MAKES you sin, then it's not your fault and you couldn't be justly condemned.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his OWN VOLUNTARY WILL at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
When taught as eternal security, this is true. However, that's PRESERVATION (by God), not perseverance (by man). Many Calvinists believe that they must hold out to the end or they're not really one of the elect. That is actually the reverse of eternal security. Other Calvinists believe that this is a promise that God won't let an elect person die before he can get saved.
Here's a real song sung by Calvinists, documented in Dr. Laurence Vance's book, "The Other Side of Calvinism":
Can you imagine a Christian singing and rejoicing to such horrible lyrics? This one is much better,
"WHOSOEVER WILL ... may come!"
Matthew 19:13-14 Children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these."
The miss interruptions I see most people making is they interrupt the verse to say as these and ignore the such. To rephrase the verse it might be easier to understand the verse if we said "like these", but I really don't think it would make much different in a culture that has already predetermined in their mind that babies go to heaven. We think of Babies going to hell as something ungodly of God, even though they are not any better then grownups as far as the heart goes. Remember the heart is what condemms us, not our works, because our works are dependent on our heart. That why Jesus says some where else in scripture I never knew you,(basically I never knew your heart). God the father never gave me your guys heart to change.
The other verse mentioned
Matthew 18:1-5 The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
The emphasis should be on the you and whoever not the Children. In other wise you should be as_______(fill in the blank) Children. I think Jesus is referring to the simplicity of a childs faith.
Again like I said at the beginning of my rant, I believe the question: do babies go to heaven if they die? Is a red herring that Arminianists ask. I do believe if they really understood scripture they wont be asking this question. The Arminianists spend to much time worshipping their babies instead of God. The only reason we should be having babies is because God instructed us as humans to go forth and populate the earth. Any other reason other then a reason that God gave us would be in sin. So I guess you can say a lot of babies are conceived out of sin since only about 50% or less are planned. But then again God doesnt look at the works we do but at the heart. But not only is the idea that less 50% are conceived but that most women and some men want babies so that they can have something cuddly and cute. Its like their ornament they put up on their tree of life to show others because thats what is expected of them in their culture.
Well Ive ranted and raved to much on this thread, I will bump it to Rnmomof7 to see if she wants to bump it to others, and I probably wont response to any responses, but you can try to hook me though. I wasnt planning on even getting this involved on any thread this week but you know they are contagious.
There are differing opinions on this subject within the Reform camp, most of them revolve around the verse in 2 Samuel 12:1-23 which I have no position on. I find it hard to take a position on just one verse or series of verses and like I said, I think you ought to be asking other questions in life concerning Scripture stuff, the depravity of the heart is a good starter.
No, just a Bible Believer. :-)
It's very interesting, all means all in my Bible!!!
It's also got that inclusive language, whosoever will.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say,
Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will,
let him take the water of life freely.
I have a question for you, if you don't mind.
I think your argument falls flat here, with your comment above.
How can it be that anyone is saved, or born again, who doesn't believe? Are you assigning salvation to nothing more than God picking them?
It's a contradiction, do you see?
You are saying they would have to go to Hell because of their sin nature, yet the same would remain in place were they not born again.
Unless of course you consider Romans, where Paul says without the knowledge of the law, sin is not imputed.
But you don't consider that.
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Hm. What do you suppose that Paul means by this?
Let's consider a pagan cannibal in New Guinea who dies in 40 AD.
Per Romans, your thoughts?
19 ¶Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
An infant however would not be in the same category, for obvious reason.
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
I Peter 2:9:-
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
What "category" would an infant be in, and for what reason?
Babies can clearly see what God has made, they just don't care about who made them or how the things they see got there, All they care about are themselves, they could care less about God. As they grow up they learn that the world doesn't revolve around them. Some adults never learn it though. Even most adults don't care how things God created God got there. I believe God treats them the all the same, he looks at their heart not their size, age or cuteness.
Then you don't believe in the Bible.
Predestination is a Bible word. Saying "I don't believe in Predestination" is like saying "I don't believe in Justification" or "I don't believe in Propitiation" or "I don't believe in Salvation".
Do that, and you'll be lying to yourself. Stop. Don't be dishonest with yourself.
Re-read what you said. It is exactly what you meant to say, after all.
That means that you don't believe in Christianity.
That means that you've got some thinking (and praying) to do.
They might be innocent in their outward appearance, but their heart is still at war with God. They could care less about God or anyone else, all they care about is themselves. In fact they are at war with their parents, right off the bat they start telling their parents what to do with crying. Unfortunately we don't understand them. I know that a bad example. Oh well that life.
If it's true that babies are without sin, which I don't believe, the best thing we could for them would be to kill them before they reach that Arminianist age of accountability. Well that crue isn't it. Well the facts of life sometimes are crue. That fact are we inherit Adam's sinfulness. Basically said we are born sinners, no fancy footing around it. We are born sinners, and are condemned as sinners from the beginning. Well I like to stay have more fun, but I've got other things to attend to to the night rolls around. Take care and God bless.
That is not the current prevailing view.
"Baptism of desire" and the "fundamental option" assume that a Just God will give all creatures the opportunity for salvation and the beatific vision.
Just exactly how that is accomplished is pure speculation on our part.
This is the silliest damn thing I've ever read on the religion forum. You have no credibility, as a Christian or as a human being.
To: ReformedBeckite Obviously you are a disruptor or deranged, which, in fact, is the same thing. V's wife. 31 posted on 12/31/2002 11:59 AM PST by ventana
True, or False?
The first question to be asked, is:
Why do babies die?
Was Jesus speaking of age or spiritual condition?
We would agree with that Jael..but would ask who will come? We say only those drawn by the Father
True or false? V's wife.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Be Blessed RB
True. (GREAT irresistible grace passage, by the way).
Now, then, returning to my question:
True, or False?
All too often the non-believer gets sucked into these discussions. It allows them to avoid the question of their own response to Jesus, while they ponder the eternity of babies and the Watutsi who hasn't heard.
Per'Zackly. (See #34)
We agree...The God of Heaven NEVER judges unfairly...the scripture says "ALL men are without excuse" that includes those minutes old..and He that is Just will judge rightly!
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