Posted on 01/05/2003 6:00:03 PM PST by EthanNorth
To sum up Doug's argument: Ethan can't be right because he's not being nice. Ethan is calling me names; Ethan is saying bad things about me, ergo, he must be wrong.
Does anyone think Ethans characterization of me is accurate?
Actually, I think Ethan is right on the money. He's pinned you down scripturally so now you try to switch tactics and complain that Ethan isn't being a nice Christian.
Doug, the Truth isn't always soft-spoken words, sometimes it's a right cross to the jaw. That's pretty much what's happened here. The truth is a brick wall, and you just ran headlong into it at high speed. Now you're complaining because it hurt. Too bad.
Douglas, Ethan did not say you had made any threats against him or his family. You have made this a red herring, to derail the conversation, because it's getting too hot for you in here.
This is the exact quote from Ethan: And make no mistake (and another person on this forum knows this), I have received numerous threats to the safety of my family and myself over the years of dealing with adherents of Armstrongism. These weren't isolated incidences. Don't let these people know your personal contact information.
He has dealt with Armstrongites before. Some of them apparently threatened him and his family. That being so, he has cause to be cautious. He made no direct accusation against you in that regard. So STOP LYING about it.
This is one of Satan's favorite devices. (It's actually the Judas Iscariot phenomenon.) The Arminians and dispensationalists try to use it against me all the time.
(As a matter of fact, sometimes I'm not even as "nice" as Ethan has been [LOL].)
My point is that we must BEWARE of using this potentially phony argument against those who present God's Word.
BigMack
But ya know what...I'm done with this thread. Christ is too important to me to come on here day after day and allow Satan to stir me to wrath. Posts 148, 155 and 156 sum up what scripture says about the topic at hand, receive it or reject it as you wish.
Ethan, I thank you for the exchanges even though I regret they became as heated as they did. It may not have been the result you were looking for, but you have helped to strengthen my faith in God and for that I'm grateful.
The same goes for everyone else. I'm sure you were doing your best to share the faith you received.
So get the last word in if you like. Or claim victory if you feel it's edifying.
Be well and God bless.
Hmmm...
Between the Flu and entertaining Clients, I didn't participate in this Thread much. So, in the absence of a "Last Word", I guess I'll just hafta offer my "first word":
The Deity of the Holy Spirit
Christianity has traditionally taught that the Holy Spirit is the third Person or Hypostasis of the Godhead. Some, however, have taught that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force used by God. Is the Holy Spirit God, or simply a power of God? Let's examine the biblical teachings.
I. The Deity of the Holy Spirit
Scripture speaks repeatedly of the Holy Spirit, known also as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Scripture indicates that the Holy Spirit is of the same essence as the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is ascribed with the attributes of God, is equated with God and does work that only God does.
A. Attributes of God
1. Holiness: In more than 90 places, the Bible calls the Spirit of God "the Holy Spirit." Holiness is a basic characteristic of the Spirit. The Spirit is so holy that blasphemy against the Spirit cannot be forgiven, although blasphemy against Jesus could be (Matt. 12:32). Insulting the Spirit is just as sinful as trampling the Son of God under foot (Heb. 10:29). This indicates that the Spirit is inherently holy, holy in essence, rather than having an assigned or secondary holiness such as the temple had.
The Spirit also has the infinite attributes of God: unlimited in time, space, power and knowledge.
2. Eternality: The Holy Spirit, the Counselor, will be with us "forever" (John 14:16). The Spirit is "eternal" (Heb. 9:14).
3. Omnipresence: David, praising God's greatness, asked, "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there" (Ps. 139:7-8). God's Spirit, which David uses as a synonym for the presence of God himself, is in heaven and in sheol (v. 8), in the east and in the west (v. 9).
God's Spirit can be said to be poured out on someone, to fill a person, or to descend -- yet without implying that the Spirit has moved away from or vacated some other place. Thomas Oden observes that "such statements are grounded in the premises of omnipresence and eternality -- attributes ascribed properly only to God" (Life in the Spirit, p. 18).
4. Omnipotence: The works that God does, such as creation, are also ascribed to the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30). Miracles of Jesus Christ were done "by the Spirit" (Matt. 12:28). In Paul's ministry, the work that "Christ has accomplished" was done "through the power of the Spirit" (Rom. 15:18-19).
5. Omniscience: "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God," Paul said (1 Cor. 2:10). The Spirit of God "knows the thoughts of God" (v. 11). The Spirit therefore knows all things, and is able to teach all things (John 14:26).
Holiness, eternality, omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are attributes of God's essence, that is, characteristic of the nature of divine existence. The Holy Spirit has the basic attributes of God.
B. Equated with God
1. Triadic formulas: Several passages discuss the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as equals. In a discussion of spiritual gifts, Paul puts the Spirit, the Lord, and God in grammatically parallel constructions (1 Cor. 12:4-6). Paul closes a letter with a three-part prayer: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14). Peter begins a letter with this three-part formula: "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood" (1 Peter 1:2).
Of course, the triadic formulas used in these and other scriptures do not prove equality (for example, Eph. 4:5 puts unequal elements in parallel construction), but they do suggest it. The baptismal formula has an even stronger implication of unity -- "in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). The Father, Son, and Spirit share a common name, indicating common essence and equality. This verse indicates both plurality and unity. Three names are given, but all three share one name.
2. Word interchanges. Acts 5:3 says that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit; verse 4 says that Ananias lied to God. This indicates that "the Holy Spirit" and "God" are interchangeable and thus that the Holy Spirit is God. Some people try to explain this by saying that Ananias lied to God only indirectly, simply because the Holy Spirit represented God. This interpretation might be grammatically possible, but it would imply the personality of the Holy Spirit as a divine representative, for one does not lie to an impersonal power. Moreover, Peter told Ananias that he lied not to humans, but to God. The force of the passage is that Ananias has lied not merely to God's representatives, but to God himself, and the Holy Spirit is God to whom Ananias lied.
Another word interchange can be seen in 1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19. Christians are not only temples of God, they are also temples of the Holy Spirit; the two expressions mean the same thing. A temple, of course, is a habitation for a deity, not a habitation for an impersonal power. When Paul writes "temple of the Holy Spirit," he implies that the Holy Spirit is God.
Another type of verbal equation between God and the Holy Spirit is seen in Acts 13:2: "The Holy Spirit said, `Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Here, the Holy Spirit speaks on behalf of God, as God. In the same way, Heb. 3:7-11 tells us that the Holy Spirit says the Israelites "tested and tried me"; the Holy Spirit says that "I was angry.... They shall never enter my rest." The Holy Spirit is equated with the God of the Israelites. Heb. 10:15-17 also equates the Spirit and the Lord who makes the new covenant. The Spirit who inspired the prophets is God. This is the work of God the Holy Spirit, which leads us to our next section.
C. Divine work
1. Creating: The Holy Spirit does work that only God can do, such as creating (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30) and expelling demons (Matt. 12:28).
2. Begetting: The Spirit begot the Son of God (Matt. 1:20; Luke 1:35), and the full divinity of the Son (Col. 1:19) implies the full divinity of the Begetter.
The Spirit begets believers, too -- they are born of God (John 1:12) and equally born of the Spirit (John 3:5). "The Spirit gives [eternal] life" (John 6:63). The Spirit is the power by which we will be resurrected (Rom. 8:11).
3. Indwelling: The Holy Spirit is the way in which God lives in his children (Eph. 2:22; 1 John 3:24; 4:13). The Holy Spirit "lives" in us (Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16) -- and because the Spirit lives in us, we are able to say that God lives in us. We can say that God lives in us only because the Holy Spirit is in some way God. The Spirit is not a representative or a power that lives in us -- God himself lives in us. Geoffrey Bromiley gives a concise conclusion: "to have dealings with the Spirit, no less than with the Father and the Son, is to have dealings with God" ("The New Holy Spirit," in The New Life, edited by Millard Erickson, p. 23).
4. Sanctifying: The Holy Spirit makes people holy (Rom. 15:16; 1 Pet. 1:2). The Spirit enables people to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). We are saved "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit" (2 Thess. 2:13).
In all these things, the works of the Spirit are the works of God. Whatever the Spirit says or does, God is saying or doing; the Spirit is fully representative of God.
II. Personality of the Holy Spirit
Scripture describes the Holy Spirit as having personal characteristics: The Spirit has mind and will, speaks and can be spoken to, and acts and intercedes for us. All these indicate personality in the theological sense: The Holy Spirit is a Person or Hypostasis in the same sense that the Father and Son are. Our relationship with God, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, is a personal relationship.
A. Life and intelligence
1. Life: The Holy Spirit "lives" (Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16).
2. Intelligence: The Spirit "knows" (1 Cor. 2:11). Rom. 8:27 refers to "the mind of the Spirit." This mind is able to make judgments -- a decision "seemed good" to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28). These verses imply a distinct intelligence.
3. Will: 1 Cor. 12:11 says that the Spirit "determines" decisions, showing that the Spirit has a will. The Greek word means "he or it determines." Although the Greek word does not specify the subject of the verb, the most likely subject in the context is the Spirit. To find a different subject, one would have to backtrack through five verses and six mentions of the Spirit. But this grammatical leapfrogging is not necessary. Since we know from other verses that the Spirit has mind and knowledge and judgment, there is no reason to reject the conclusion in 1 Cor. 12:11 that the Spirit also has will.
B. Communication
1. Speaking: Numerous verses say that the Holy Spirit spoke (Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 21:11; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7; etc.). Oden observes that "the Spirit speaks in the first person as `I'; `It was I who sent them' (Acts 10:20).... `I have called them' (Acts 13:2). None but a person can say `I' " (The Living God, p. 200).
2. Interaction: The Spirit may be lied to (Acts 5:3), which indicates that the Spirit may be spoken to. The Spirit may be tested (Acts 5:9), insulted (Heb. 10:29) or blasphemed (Matt. 12:31), which implies personal status. Oden gathers additional evidence: "The apostolic testimony applied intensely personal analogies: guiding (Rom. 8:14), convicting (John 16:8), interceding (Rom. 8:26), calling (Acts 13:2), commissioning (Acts 20:28).... Only a person can be vexed (Isa. 63:10) or grieved (Eph. 4:30)" (Life in the Spirit, p. 19).
3. Paraclete: Jesus called the Holy Spirit the parakletos -- the Comforter, Advocate or Counselor. The Paraclete is active, teaching (John 14:26), testifying (15:26), convicting (16:8), guiding (16:13) and making truth known (16:14).
Jesus used the masculine form of parakletos; he did not consider it necessary to make the word neuter or to use neuter pronouns. In John 16:14, masculine pronouns are used even after the neuter pneuma is mentioned. It would have been easy to switch to neuter pronouns, but John did not. In other places, neuter pronouns are used for the Spirit, in accordance with grammatical convention. Scripture is not finicky about the grammatical gender of the Spirit, and we need not be either.
C. Action
1. New life: The Holy Spirit regenerates us, giving us new life (John 3:5). The Spirit sanctifies us (1 Pet. 1:2) and leads us in that new life (Rom. 8:14). The Spirit gives various gifts to build the Church up (1 Cor. 12:7-11), and throughout the book of Acts, we see that the Spirit guides the Church.
2. Intercession: The most "personal" activity of the Holy Spirit is intercession: "We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us.... The Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will" (Rom. 8:26-27). Intercession implies not only receiving communication, but also communicating further on. It implies an intelligence, a concern, and a formal role. The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal power, but an intelligent and divine Helper who lives within us. God lives within us, and the Holy Spirit is God.
III. Worship
There are no scriptural examples of worshipping the Holy Spirit. Scripture talks about praying in the Spirit (Eph. 6:18), the fellowship of the Spirit (2 Cor. 13:14), and baptism in the name of the Spirit (Matt. 28:19). Although baptism, prayer and fellowship are involved in worship, none of these verses is a valid proof-text for worship of the Spirit.
As an opposite of worship, however, we note that the Spirit can be blasphemed (Matt. 12:31).
There are no scriptural examples of praying to the Holy Spirit. However, Scripture indicates that a human can talk to the Spirit (Acts 5:3). If this is done in reverence or request, it is, in effect, praying to the Spirit. If Christians are unable to articulate their desires and they want the Spirit to intercede for them (Rom. 8:26-27), they are praying, directly or indirectly, to the Holy Spirit. When we understand that the Holy Spirit has intelligence and fully represents God, we may ask the Spirit for help -- never thinking that the Spirit is a separate being from God, but recognizing that the Spirit is the Hypostasis of God interceding for us.
Why then does Scripture say nothing about praying to the Spirit? Michael Green explains: "The Holy Spirit does not draw attention to himself. He is sent by the Father to glorify Jesus, to show Jesus' attractiveness, and not to take the centre of the stage" (I Believe in the Holy Spirit, p. 60). Or, as Geoffrey Bromiley puts it, "The Spirit is self-effacing" (p. 21).
Prayer or worship directed specifically to the Holy Spirit is not the scriptural norm, but we nonetheless worship the Spirit. When we worship God, we worship all aspects of God, including the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. A fourth-century theologian explained it this way: "The Spirit is jointly worshipped in God, when God is worshipped in the Spirit" (Ambrose, Of the Holy Spirit III.X.82, quoted in Oden, Life in the Spirit, p. 16). Whatever we say to the Spirit we are saying to God, and whatever we say to God we are saying to the Spirit.
IV. Summary
Scripture indicates that the Holy Spirit has divine attributes and works, and is spoken of in the same way that the Father and Son are. The Holy Spirit is intelligent, and speaks and acts like a Person. This is part of the scriptural evidence that led early Christians to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity. Bromiley gives a summary:
Three points that emerge from this survey of the New Testament data are: (1) The Holy Spirit is everywhere regarded as God; (2) He is God in distinction from the Father and the Son; (3) His deity does not infringe upon the divine unity. In other words, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the triune Godhead....
The divine unity cannot be subjected to mathematical ideas of unity. The fourth century learned to speak of three hypostases or persons within the deity, not in the tritheistic sense of three centers of consciousness, but also not in the weaker sense of three economic manifestations. From Nicaea and Constantinople on, the creeds sought to do justice to the essential biblical data along these lines. (pp. 24-25)
Although Scripture does not directly say that "the Holy Spirit is God," or that God is triune, these conclusions are based on scriptural evidence. Based on biblical evidence, the Worldwide Church of God teaches that the Holy Spirit is God in the same way that the Father is God and the Son is God.
SOURCE: The WorldWide Church of God. (http://www.wcg.org/lit/God/deityHS.htm)
Ever consider that, DouglasKC??
Armstrong's "worldwide church of god" are abandoning his heresy and swimming for their very Souls to reach the Rock of Christ and His Church... and meanwhile, you are STILL swabbing the INCESTUOUS "prophet"s HOLY-SPIRIT-BLASPHEMING deck chairs.
If that's REALLY WHERE YOU WANT TO BE... then when Christ comes in Judgment, know this -- you will have chosen it."
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
That's my first word, and that's my last.
Of course, I agree with your entire post.
My concern is that the way this is written makes it an easy target for the "Jesus Only" crowd.....whether in their denial of the Trinity (they say Jesus is the Father and the HS)...or in other groups insistence that "Jesus" is the only proper "magic word" to be spoken at a baptismal service.
Jesus said, "All authority is given....therefore go into all the world...baptizing in the name of the F, S, and HS...."
"In the name of" does not equal "verbalizing the name of."
John's Baptism did not mean that his followers had to say the magic words "In the name of John." Nor does "If you ask anything in my name" mean if I use the magic forumula "Give me a new Jaguar in the name of Jesus" that I will get a Jaguar.
"All authority is given me" is what Mt 28 says, and then it says "go baptize in the name of..." It is obvious from scripture that "in the name of" equates with "under the authority of/with the approval of."
Seeing that the true God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, has vested me with authority through the establishment of this Church and this practice of baptism, I baptize. As a representative of Jesus himself, and under his authority, I baptize.
What's amazing is that they're willing to fritter away the important part of the argument on this silly little issue. If he'd just cited it right and gone on, no issue.
You and I disagree on a number of doctrinal issues, serious doctrinal issues. So serious that I fear for your salvation.
Having said that, I don't think you are a liar nor are you a spinner. When someone posts to you in the manner which some on this thread have posted to you, the best response, in my estimation, is none. It is hard sometimes to appear to let someone else have "the last word." But often, in those "last words" they reveal far more of their character than they ever will understand.
In Christ (who, by the way, is God) :-)
bass
I have seen angelo defend all manner of people on all manner of topics. His chief aim seems to be honest debate. Not a bad goal.
You conveniently left out the sentence immediately preceding in Ethan's quote. That sentence was "He can't deal with the scholarly and Biblical facts so he does the next best thing — go after me personally."
So, in context, it is not at all a leap that a person would think Ethan is talking about Doug. Yes, Ethan gave himself some wiggle room. For that he can pat himself on the back. But he's doing quite a bit of that already. Are you auditioning for something, Ethan?
Actually, Douglas was the one who twisted it into Ethan saying that Douglas was threatening his family. Ethan never said that. As for the sentence preceding what I quoted, was it not true? Douglas did indeed go after Ethan on a personal level, accusing him of hating scripture, of hating the truth, of lying and trying to cover it up. There is no question that is precisely what Douglas did. After Douglas had twisted that into an accusation of personal danger by Douglas against Ethan, I went back and found the actual statement. I quoted exactly what Ethan said. Ethan did not accuse Douglas, but pointed out that some whom Douglas identifies with are not above doing so. It was a warning to Douglas about what kind of people he's associating with.
After I left the cult I was involved with back in the 70's, I went public with information about their inner workings and beliefs, speaking to the media. I watched over my shoulder for a good 5 years afterward, because I knew the mindset of some who were part of the cult. I didn't put anything past them. By God's Grace, nothing happened.
Bye Doug, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.....
I have had many good exchanges with angelo, and consider him a friend. He is not a Christian, but he doesn't try to pass himself off as one, either. Honest debate is better than dishonest debate, no doubt. With angelo, he is at least consistent, and doesn't try to represent himself as something he's not. I can respect that. I don't always agree with him, nor he with me, but that has not been an impediment to being able to talk about things, or to have friendly exchanges about non-religious topics. And, if I want to get a Jewish perspective on things, he's one of the first I would ask.
If you cannot see the clear implication that is made by putting those two sentences directly next to each other then I cannot make you see it.
You are twisting his original statement into something it never was. Doug's reading of it is much clearer than yours is. You seem to be saying that Ethan said "Doug is attacking me personally. And, by the way, Doug, watch out because the people you hang out with have threatened my family." Hardly. Just admit that Ethan's implication was wrong and move on. Just because his theology was right doesn't mean that his rhetoric is too.
Uh-oh: LDS alert. Man the battlestations...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.