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Utah Baby Names (That distinctive name that says, "I'm Mormon.")
The Utah Baby Namer ^ | Wes and Cari Clark

Posted on 01/24/2003 4:41:20 PM PST by A.J.Armitage

What's In a (Utah) Name?

by Cari Bilyeu Clark

When my husband and I moved from Utah to the Washington, D.C. area seventeen years ago, we knew nothing of the inadvertent legacy we carried from our four years in Utah. Shortly after we arrived in our new home, we saw a television commercial for a local grocery store chain. The spokeswoman's name was the unusual "Odonna." "She's gotta be from Utah," I said to my husband. "That's a Utah name if I ever heard one."

We eventually learned that Odonna was, indeed, Utah born and bred.

It dawned on us that many names we'd heard during our college careers, and found only mildly remarkable, were indeed unique to the Utah Mormon culture. Thus began our quest to define what makes some names singularly Utahn, and what sets them apart from ethnic names with roots in other cultures, such as Juanita or Shoshanna; or African-American names such as Tawanda and Shaquille; or the newly common, soap-operaesque handles such as Skylar, Tiffany, Raven, and Adrienne. There's a difference, and it's not just the obviously Mormon scriptural names like Mahonri or Nephi or Moroni. Often identifying a Utah name is a gut feeling akin to Justice Potter Stewart's definition of pornography: you know it when you see it.

The quintessential Utah name often has a French-sounding prefix such as Le-, La-, Ne-, or Va-. Often names appear to have genesis in the combined names of the parents--Veradeane or GlenDora, for example. Related is the practice of feminizing the father's name--as in Vonda (dad is Vaughan) or Danetta. Others, such as Snell or Houser, appear to be surnames called into service as first names.

Related is the curious tendency, more common in Utah than elsewhere, for men (women do not seem to do this) to use the first initial, then the full middle name as the given name, such as L. Flake Roberts, who ran for office in Utah County when we lived there. (Come on, you've noticed this habit among the general authorities of the LDS church!) Besides puzzling over why someone would want to be known as "Flake," it makes one wonder just what the "L" stands for.

[Hmmmm. Where have we heard about that before? --A.J.]

So my husband and I entertained ourselves by collecting the often bizarre names we found in Utah publications (including the obituaries, which indicates that this is not a recent fad) and of Utah natives we met. We compiled a list and shared it with our friends, who often as not had a few more to add. We really hit a bonanza when one woman shared our observations with her mother, who worked at a Utah bank and had access to lots of names. She started her own list and began sending the names to us. (My personal favorite, LaNondus, came from this source.) Another friend told us of a set of sisters, all of whose names began with "Ja."

Once my husband had Internet access, he collected more names and corresponded with another couple who amused themselves the same way. They made cleverly categorized lists: "The ward choir director's daughters: LaVoice, Choral, Audia."

It makes you wonder what some parents were thinking when, for instance, they named their baby girl Lanae (la-nay)--and she unfortunately ended up with a big nose (le nez [la-nay] in French means "the nose"). Or the girl named M'Lu--are clever wags endlessly asking her to skip to it? And how the heck do people with apostrophes in their names fill out computerized forms? There's no apostrophe space. The guy I really pity, though, is the one saddled with the unfortunate moniker, Rube.

Of course, parents cannot predict what new interpretations the marketplace will bring to the names they lovingly bestow on their offspring. I once worked at a company which had dealings with a woman named LaPriel (pronounced la-prell). When I told my former roommate about this inexplicable first name, she sardonically replied, "What's her sister's name--LaTegrin?"

With the generally larger-than-average family, often saddled with the very ordinary surnames Smith, Johnson, or Young, it's not surprising that many Utah parents look for unique given names for their children. When you throw in the reverence for family and ancestors forwarded by the LDS Church, it seems inevitable that someone would end up with LaEarl, KDell, Arnolene or Hariella.

Some names, though, seem to defy description--if not pronunciation. While pride of place may have spawned Utahna, how did somebody come up with Wealtha? And while Lloydine's genesis seems plausible, how on earth were Printha or Noy coined? And I have no idea what constitutes the correct pronunciation for Kairle or Tawhnye. (I suspect they may be wildly creative spellings of Carol and Tonya.)

Perhaps the following list (by no means comprehensive) will amuse you. Perhaps it will offend you. Perhaps you will find your name, or the name of a relative, on it. Or perhaps you will be so enchanted by a particular name that you'll want to bestow it upon one of your own offspring. If that is your plan, first do this: go to the back door, fling it open and yell the name at the top of your lungs six or eight times, because that's how it's going to be heard for the next eighteen years. And remember, when little Wynante (boy or girl, you choose) grows up, you'll have to live with the consequences.

The Cream of the Crop

The Clarks' Favorite Utah Names

Updated 24 January 2003

The new parents couldn't be happier: Gladell & Delightra (sisters), Luvit, Delecta, Delite, Joyette, Joi, Joyia, Joyellen, Joycell, Hallah Lujah [How about Hallah Back Y'all? --A.J.], Bliss, Joyanne

Cleanliness is next to Godliness: Zestpoole, Sparkle

The Ward Choir Director's Daughters: Aria, Audia, Aurel, Choral, LaVoice, Tonilee, Capella, Chime, Rocksan Violin

Jewels every one: Amulet, Pearlette, Pearlene, Emerald, JewlyAnn, Ahmre Jade, Treasure Tonya, Turquoise Nova, Sequin, Amethist.

Girls you just know have big, floofy hair: Blondeen, Rayette, Faundaree, Shazette, Shasheena, Honilynn, Najestica, Teasa, Shazzanna, Pluma, Bobbette, Blonda, Breezy, Wenderella, Aquanetta, Brinderella, Dazzlyn

Maybe they're in the Klingon Ward: Tchae, Xko, Corx, G'ni, Vvhs, Garn, Ka, Deauxti, Xymoya, Sha'Kira [Her older sister is called Macare'na.], Zy, Xela, Tscharna, Nivek, Zon'tl, Zagg, Xan, Judziah Datz (a female, named after a character in Star Trek), K'lar (ditto), Jarna Nazhalena, Chod, Xarek, Grik, Stod, T'Shara, Tral, Sherik, Curg

[I am Krang the Merciless!! And I'm a Mormon!]

The Worth of a Soul: Cashley

Astronomical: LeVoid, Sunan, Moonyene, Starlene, Sunelly, Luna, Lunia, Solinda, Sunirae, Staryl, Marandastarr, Season, Aries, Starlyn, Cressent, Celestial Starr, Summerlyn, Astrolena

Could only be LDS: Cumorah Hill, Liahonna, Ensign, Nauvoo, Kirtland, Templa, Templer, Tempella, Tempalia, Ziona, Deseret (and Desereta), Tabernacle, Woodruff, Pratt, Tithing, Quorum, Helamans Warrior, Iron Rod, Morona, Manti, Stripling, Nephi Courage, Celestial Glory, Celestian, Brighaminie, Zion, Xione (pronounced "zion")

Parents were BYU math majors: Alpha Mae, Seven, Seavenly, Twenty, Prime, Omega Lee, Jennyfivetina, Tenna [Mormon porn star: Tenna Tameson.], Elevena, Ninea, Eighta

[How would you like to be named after your birth order?]

You can name a kid this, but you shouldn't ingest it: Cola, Vinyl, Orlon, Chlorine, Clorene, Florene, Florine, Lexann, Dow, Tide, Downy, Codiene, Daquari, DeCon, Starbuck, Crayon, Treasure Cocaine

[Classy. Real classy.]

Names inspired by the family car: Audi, Fairlene, Celecta, Pontiac, Vonda, Vonza, Auto, Cherokee, Lexus, Porsche, Skylark, Truckston, Avis, Chevrollette, Chevonne, Caprice, Dodge

["Honey, nothing says class like Lexus. Now go make some jello."]

Wishful thinking: Darlin', Courage, Winsome, Justan Tru, Pictorianna, Paradise Sunrise, Sage, Angelic, Breed, Godlove, Myrth, LaVirgin, DeFonda Virtue, Chastice, Normalene, Lovie Angel, Precious Blessing, Heavenly Melanie, Glee, Mormon Beauty, Pledger, Jentill, Devota, Coy, Fondd, Bridella, Verna Noall, Vervine, Viva, Golden Noble, MarVel, MemRee, Brunette, Merrily, Merry Ann, Celestial, Cherrish, Kash, Cashelle, Teton, Forever, Luvit, Mystiq, Worthy, Truly, Pleasant, Speedy, Hereditary, Shrudilee, Halo, Gentry, Truthanne, Finita, Mavryck, Amen, Merrijane, Marvelous Man.

Dad's hobby is obvious: Justa Cowgirl, Rode O, Hazer, Durango, Rifle, Laker, Jazz, Truck. Granite, Garnet, Gneiss (and other sisters with rock names beginning with “G.”)

Conversational: Whisper, Chat

Indications of possible birthplace: Arizonia, Floria, Montania, Utah, Utahna, Idahana, Idaho, Mauntana [Flunk spelling, name you kid Mauntana. Study hard!], Michigan, Nevadna, Okla, Vermont, Wyoming, Wyoma, Cache, Jordana, Payson, Vernal, Boise, Brookelynn, Lexington, Demoyn, Fredonia, Leremy, Platte, Salina, Seattle, Takoma, Tulsa, Tustin, Vail, Lundyn, Londyn, Irelynd, Irelan, Madrid, Manila, Cairo, Damascus, Tyre, Desert, Shahara, Trinidad, Houston, Cachelyn, D'Asia, Edon, Takoda, Orem, Shannon doah, Davenport Shore

No man (or woman) is an island - exceptions: Oahu, Irlanda, Tonga, SeaBreaze, Tiki Lou

Possible conception placenames: Hilton, Nafeteria, Bridges, Castle

Indications of possible birthdates: Juneth, Junola, LaJune, Julyn, Halloween, Novella, Summerisa, Winnter, Christmas Holiday, Merrienoel, Kris Miss, Tuesdee, Aprella

The day dawn is breaking: Dawnae, Dawnia, Dawnel, Dawnelle, Dawnene, Dawnalyn, Dawnette, Karadawn, RaDawn, Keturah Dawn, SheriDawn, LuDawn, LaDawn, Le Dawn, El Dawn, Dawnetta, Dawnese, Mistidawn, Berva Dawn, Celestial Dawn, Bodawn, Honey Dawn, Sunrise, Dawny, Yodawn, Dawnika, Dawnray, Denverly Dawn, Sunni Dawn, Dusty Dawn, Taradawn, Twyla Dawn, Georgia Dawn, Iva Dawn, Marva Dawn

Dad was a plumber: Valva, BeDae, Latrina, La Jonne, Digger

Dad worked for the postal service: Mailene

Dad's a lawyer: Justicia

Dad had a hernia: Truss

Less is more: La, Oa, NB, T, M, Q, JJ

I hope the computer will accept apostrophes in the name fields: D'Ann, D'Aun, D'Bora, D'Dee, D'Elise, D'Loaf, D'Shara, E'all, L'Deane, L'orL, Ja'mon, J'Costa, J'dean, J'Leen, J'net, J'Shara, J'Vonna, La'Donis, Me'shell, M'Jean, M'Kaaylie, M'Kenna, Mi'Lara, M'Lisa, M'Liss, M'Lu, M'Recia, O'lea, R'dell, R'lene, Shan'l, Young'n, B'andra, De'lys, D'Dree

["And the called her... O'Lestra. She had the runs a lot."]

Future names of prescriptions: Lyravin, Monalaine, Nyleen, Merlaine, Monease, Naquel, Ronalene, Nylan, Rolayne, Tyron, Lexine, Lyrin, Mikatin, Artax, Xtrin, Tylene, Qedrin, Tamrin, Denilyn, Kevrin, Nicolin, Xylan, Tolex, Zylan, Daycal, Falycid, Zerin, Davon, Sydal

Wow! What a Babe!: Wavie, Zhalore, LaTanna, Tressa, LaDreama, Amourette

Fluid-related: Thermos, Soda, Logan River, Jordan River, Susquehannah, Canteen

When simple alphabetic characters aren't enough: K-8 (pronounced "Kate," I guess)

[Kids: that's happens when you're illiterate. Stay in school!]

Politically incorrect: Sambo, Aryion

[Maybe they weren't thinking "Aryan", but "Arian". Heretics gotta stick together!]

Heard chanted in the Salt Lake airport: Ara-Om

Has food connotations: Dianarea, Dicey, Vindalu, Blenda, Strawberry, Sugarlee, Beena, Pork Chop, Sesami, Jar, Karmel, Kresent, TaffiLyn, Chipo

Had breathing problems in the hospital nursery: Azure, Syrullean

You might find in a forest: Wrendie, Jilbear, Timber, Oaks, Pixie, LaFawnduh, Fawn-Dew, Ember, Bird, Magpie, Serenity Fawn, Paradi, L'Aire, Brookelle, Sylvan, Fawna, Lawn, Rain, Gazelle, El Fawn ["El" makes it masculine, "Fawn" makes it girly-poofy. El Fawn: expressing pride from Salt Lake City to San Francisco.], Aspen, Acacia, Panda, Briar, Rhodendra, Fernnola, Birdene, Hummingbird, Disney, Chinchilla Zest, Haven, Glade

No doubt about it, this kid's in charge: Rexina, Rexine, Queenola, Dominee, Ruger, Messiah Angel, Oden, RexDee, Navy, Jentry, Czar, LeeMaster, Quintessa, Marquessa, Leviathan, Captain.

Smells: Cachet, Reaka, Violeet, Avon, Budla

Faux ethnic: Laddie, Walkasheaqua, Bsjonet, Hishla, Chilnecha, Forthilda, Kaltighanna, Alainka, Chip-wa, Pawnece America, Zem Saxon, O'Ann, WaThene, Sheighlagh, Valliere

Commemorating something or another: Welcome Exile, Confederate American, Southern Justice, Liberty Lulu, Young Elizabeth, Genesis, MistiNoele, Imagine, Thankful Flood, Friends Forsaken, Joyous Noel, Tennyson, Knight Train, Miracles Precious One, Sunday's Hoseana, Disney, Blessing Ream, Stormy Shepherd, Denim Levi, Vernal Independence, Sincere Devotion, Mothers, Elvoid, Noah-Lot, Mormon Miracles, MyLae, Nightrain Lane, Zion Anakin, Jeopardee, Statehood, Denim Levi

Let's hope not: Rube, Sleeza, Nymphus, Golden P., Burns, Hydra, Non, Malis, Talon, Beefea, Patches, Storm, Slayer, Sterile, Slaughter, Jynx, Hyde, Prynne, StormiAnn, Sham, Apathy, DeRail, Dull, Gamble

In a class of their own (In fact, I'm not sure I believe these but we asked for details and a confirmation and got convincing replies, so here they are): NaLa'DeLuhRay, Phakelikaydenicia, Zaragrunudgeyon ("Zarg," for short), Jennyfivetina, Tiarrhea, Nudity, VulvaMae, DaLinda LaDale, Tugdick, Saunsceneyouray, and, yes... Clitoris.

["Well, it sounded pretty when the doctor said it, and my wife Placenta likes it."]

Teletubbies: Laalaa

Guaranteed to get last place on our list (or anyone else's): ZZkora

I can't think of anything clever to write but these must be mentioned: Barbeli, Revo Cram, Feramorz, Glint, LaNondus, Wynante, Camera, Lecoya, AureJudd, NaNon, Bimberly, DavidO, Leumas ("Samuel" backwards), Ralphene, Shimber, T-vive, Synthi, CoJane, Nona-rene, Gaylawn, Txanton, LaZello, Daycal, Sancie D'Wan, RaVoe, Zenus, Gatobon, LaEarl, Trystal, AndiOdette, Serenity-Tabitha-Ann, Alexavier, X Y Zella, Bonquisha, Musser Cenia, Jubeltine, Oryeon, Shlori, Danlonaga, Zedwain, Casualeen, Young'n, Shambertine Crille, Canon, Malique, LeeWitt, Jazzeri, DeRaunz, Teru, Aaro, Divid, Cimemthymia, LaDonnaJosephrania, LaDeeDee, deRalph, MaddLynAlain, Vyquetoriya, Falycid, Rophis, Mick BonScott, Kaysional Tempest, Darianlelo, DeLaVerne, BoChe', Minnet, Kandle, Seena Tawnya, Dwodger, J Thoral, Xanderrick, Abcde, KNikkol, Demeatrice, LLean Shanalyn, Scytha Solena, HiDee

TOPICS: Humor; Other non-Christian
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To: LiteKeeper
Who do the LDS believe Lucifer is/was?

Your Spirit brother!
All Spirit babies
are spirit siblings!

501 posted on 01/31/2003 8:19:27 AM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: CCWoody
Woody is ROTFLHAO!
502 posted on 01/31/2003 8:23:01 AM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: restornu
Ah, Mormon modesty.
503 posted on 01/31/2003 8:26:42 AM PST by Wrigley
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To: Illbay; White Mountain; CubicleGuy; Utah Girl; rising tide; Grig; Rad_J
Isn't considered a virtue to lie for the sake of the "gospel "in the LDS belief system?? Sorta like "falling up"

Dear Sister and Brethen help me to hold my tongue!

504 posted on 01/31/2003 8:27:08 AM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: Wrigley
That's Woody behind!
505 posted on 01/31/2003 8:28:37 AM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: restornu
Behind where?
506 posted on 01/31/2003 8:31:18 AM PST by Wrigley
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To: restornu
Are you saying that before you came to the earth you were in a "pre-existent state" and that you were exactly as Jesus was before he became flesh and dwelt among us? That you were, at one time in the past, EQUAL to JESUS?
507 posted on 01/31/2003 8:43:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe (Fighting Blasphemy and other Abominable Heresies)
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To: P-Marlowe
Are you saying that before you came to the earth you were in a "pre-existent state" and that you were exactly as Jesus was before he became flesh and dwelt among us? That you were, at one time in the past, EQUAL to JESUS? ~ P-Marlowe Woody.
508 posted on 01/31/2003 8:55:48 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: restornu
I do not ~think~ you would consider dodging and weaving and understating a lie Rest..i believe you are basically "honest" But lets face it there is lots of dodging going on

Was this a lie?

From Time magazine interview with Hinckley August 4, 1997

On whether the LDS Church holds that, "God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain, ‘I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it ... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it,’" Hinckley told Time.

509 posted on 01/31/2003 8:55:55 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
It sounds like Hinckley did not contend earnestly for his faith, but was embarrassed about it. It is certainly easy to find many cites which state that "Father Adam God" was once a man. They used to actually publish such things in the newspaper with big bold headlines to that effect when they weren't embarrassed about their faith.
510 posted on 01/31/2003 9:05:57 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Do you think that as all these Mormons believe they were "pre-existent" just like Jesus was "pre-existent" and since they are not now gods that Jesus was not God when He was born of human flesh and walked the earth?

And they think the idea of the Trinity is too confusing. :-)

511 posted on 01/31/2003 9:08:11 AM PST by P-Marlowe (Fighting Blasphemy and other Abominable Heresies)
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To: P-Marlowe
Test tube Babies in not the subject is it?

The Subject is cloning?

You do know the differents don't you?

I am starting to wonder about you!

512 posted on 01/31/2003 11:20:20 AM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: RnMomof7
Quit being criptic and spell this post #497 out!
513 posted on 01/31/2003 11:23:00 AM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: restornu
Test tube Babies in not the subject is it? The Subject is cloning? You do know the differents don't you? I am starting to wonder about you!

Rest, first of all your position is nuts. You stated: clones evolve from a test tuble and when they expire they they no longer exist not even in the spirit world, and are NOT resurrected on Judgement Day!

So the implication is that babies who are conceived or evolve??? in a test tube have no soul. Now if you mean that only cloned test tube babies have no soul that still does not make your argument any more sane. Your position on this case completely lacks any scientific or theological basis. The fact of the matter is that there are millions of clones in this world today. I used to date one. About one in every 100 births is a clone.

Now if you can give me any scriptural or scientific basis for your theory that these people have no soul, I would appreciate it.

And is your position the official position of the LDS Authorities?

514 posted on 01/31/2003 11:50:24 AM PST by P-Marlowe (Fighting Blasphemy and other Abominable Heresies)
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To: P-Marlowe
Test tube babies are NOT Clones PM!!!!

A Clone is DNA from a previous living or living being!

Test tube babies are created from a ~

Sperm & Egg

There are no proven human clones in existence !

Yet PM said he dated one!

"The fact of the matter is that there are millions of clones in this world today. I used to date one. About one in every 100 births is a clone."

515 posted on 01/31/2003 12:53:33 PM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: restornu; P-Marlowe
Twins rest, twins.
516 posted on 01/31/2003 12:57:22 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: P-Marlowe
I'm not going to answer yes or no. The answer I found is one I have used for many years, it just says it better than I can.
517 posted on 01/31/2003 1:11:30 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: CARepubGal
I have many examples of how the LDS church has helped with humanitarian efforts all over the world. One such example was when Hurricane Mitch struck in central America a few years ago. The hurricane struck, the leaders in the LDS church were notified. Early that morning, the leaders at the Humanitarian Center were notified of the disaster the people were facing in the Honduras. They put a plan together, and had the basic food packages, along with hygeine packages put together by volunteers that afternoon. That was on a Wednesday. On Thursday, the pallets were wrapped in plastic and sent to the airport, Friday, they were loaded on airplanes and shipped to the Honduras. By Monday, the supplies were in the area where they were needed (they had to be trucked in.) The convoy arrived in the middle of the night, a call went out to the local stake president and 400 volunteers showed up to unload the trucks and store the good at the local church house. Monday afternoon, the supplies were in the hands of those who were in need. Michael Rawson, a journalist, was doing a report for the BBC, and said it was amazing how quickly the Humanitarian Center jumped into action and got the supplies quickly to where they needed to be. He had followed many disasters, and was absolutely impressed by what happened.

Another such example is a woman in SLC heard about a hospital in Guatamala who were wrapping the babies in newspaper to send home with their mothers. This LDS woman sprang into action, and enlisted the women in her ward's Relief Society to make quilts for newborns for this orphanage. I know upwards of 800 quilts were sent down in a very short time. A woman in my home ward who is a quadriplegic (she has limited use of her hands and arms) has made over 400 dresses for little girls, the dresses are sent to Africa. In the ward I am visiting right now, at our RS Enrichment night, we put together 370 newborn kits (comprising a fleece blanket, a nightie, a pair of booties, a pkg of diaper pins, a bar of soap, and some white cloth for diapers.) The women in that ward had spent the previous six months sewing the blankets, booties, and nighties, and donated the money for the other items. I don't want to go on because I feel like I am boasting.

I think it is wonderful what Samaritan's Gift is doing. I went out to their website and looked around. Wow, it is very impressive. I think the point is to serve others who are less fortunate than we are, where ever they may be. The members of the LDS church have always been active in serving others and providing service to the communities that they live in. It has been very exciting to have the Humanitarian Center also, each ward has a couple of specialists that are assigned to organize activities that will bless the lives of others. I've made blankets that are donated to the police department to give to frightened children who are taken from their parents for whatever reason (abuse, etc). On an ongoing basis, I knit tropical sore bandages (for those who suffer from leprosy). They range from 4 feet to 7.5 feet long.

I guess I didn't realize it was a competition between churches to see how much we donate monetarily to others, or how much time. I think the point is that we serve others, as we have been admonished by Jesus Christ: "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

If you want more information about the Humanitarian Center or other things that the LDS church does in service to other, here is the URL: Humanitarian Center. For me, it is exciting to have such resources available, I try my best to serve in the local community, but it is a good feeling also to be able to give to those in immediate need also overseas, etc.

And one more item I found (sorry, I didn't mean to go on so long). Humanitarian Services often partners with other humanitarian organizations to help provide relief to those in need. The impact is much greater than each organization could have made alone. Humanitarian Services partners with organizations that have a strong local presence and understand local needs.

518 posted on 01/31/2003 2:57:16 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: RnMomof7
I've never condemned those who make a living with other churches. Never. Serving Heavenly Father 24/7 is a holy calling, and I will NEVER denigrate those who feel the urge to serve in that way. They do much good in this world. Your pastor sounds wonderful, it was a wonderful thing he did for your family when your grandson died.

However, I will set the record straight on my father and others who serve as mission presidents (I have firsthand knowledge of that.) They are provided a home to live in, a car to drive, and a frugal budget. They are called for three years and serve 24/7. The money comes from the tithes of the members of the LDS church. He was very blessed to be called to serve the Lord in this capacity, and did so honorably.

And I do not begrudge any of our leaders anything. You may cast aspersions upon their heads, if they are misspending the money for "nice suits", they will be held accountable for it. Period. It is kind of ironic that you say that poor people can't serve in the LDS church or be called to certain positions because of money, and yet if they have temporal needs, you then cast aspersions because they are taking money from the LDS church for those temporal needs while serving.

For me, it is an act of faith to pay my tithing. I am showing obedience to my Heavenly Father and to Jesus Christ by doing so. I have seen in my life blessings for paying tithing, I have seen how that tithing money is spent. It is not wasted, the people administering the money are very careful and prayerful in their decisions. It is also an act of faith to trust in the Lord and in those whom he has directed to use tithes properly. Audits do go on in the LDS church, each ward is accountable for the money that comes in and is spent, each stake is, and so on up the line.

But I think it is more titillating to say that the figures aren't made public, so of course some hanky panky MUST be going on. I like to have more trust than that.

519 posted on 01/31/2003 3:11:13 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: RnMomof7
Yea they just get "allowances". I will remember that. Again, almost all of the leaders in the LDS church are volunteers, they are called to serve.

BTW who makes a profit on the sale of the underwear ..that is handled by the local bishop right? What other things is he the middle man for? Does he have a credit card for fuel etc?

No profit is made from the sales of garments. I can give you prices, it is well under what underwear costs, that is all I will say. No, one can purchase them at Distribution Centers, at Beehive Clothing stores (located in various communities, mostly in Utah), and in the same communities as there are temples. There is no middle man who gets paid. The bishop is not the middle man, and doesn't have a credit card from teh LDS church. There are no secretive people getting rich off of our tithing funds. It just isn't so.

I've been in leadership positions, and been in ward council meetings where the ward yearly budget is discussed. It is out in the open, and is discussed at the yearly ward conferences, where the ward clerk makes an accounting of the funds for that ward. You really are barking up the wrong tree here.

520 posted on 01/31/2003 3:19:16 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: RnMomof7
Isn't considered a virtue to lie for the sake of the "gospel "in the LDS belief system?? Sorta like "falling up".

No, it is not considered a virtue to lie. Where are you getting this information from? Yikes. The LDS church does work with Catholic charities, there are some places where the charities have been established, and the two churches work together to fill the needs of those in that area.

521 posted on 01/31/2003 3:22:17 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: Utah Girl
The LDS church does work with Catholic charities, there are some places where the charities have been established, and the two churches work together to fill the needs of those in that area.


522 posted on 01/31/2003 3:32:11 PM PST by Codie
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To: Utah Girl; RnMomof7; LiteKeeper; P-Marlowe; drstevej
Since I brought up the financial disclosure issue, allow me to clarify: I can access at any time financial data from the church I attend. My Catholic friends can look at the data at any time and see where their money is being spent. In fact, most religions do fully disclose income and expenditures. I am talking about income statements and balance sheets published quarterly, monthly or yearly.

As a Mormon, you have no access to this information, in fact nobody ouside the LDS Church accounting dept and internal auditors at 50 East North Temple can see these records. Public disclosure does decrease the likelihood of fraud or embezzlement. And this could come from any level (underreporting of offerings; someone skimming the tithes for personal gain, bad investments and so on). What reason would there be to not disclose financials to the laity? Historically, this was a bad thing.
523 posted on 01/31/2003 6:07:25 PM PST by CARepubGal (Liberals: what are they good for? Absolutely NOTHING!)
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To: CARepubGal
by Richard Edgley and Wilford G. Edling

The financial strength of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints derives primarily from the commitment of its members to the scriptural principle of tithing and other forms of voluntary contributions and service. The collection and disbursement of all funds are carefully managed according to standard procedures worldwide and under the direct supervision of the First Presidency. The Church also maintains limited business investments and financial reserves as part of its larger strategy for supporting expanding ecclesiastical programs. The handling of all funds is regularly audited in accordance with sound financial practices.

Latter-day Saints take seriously the commandment to pay tithing and the Lord's promises as given in the Old Testament:

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it [Mal. 3:8-10].

This law of finance for God's Church has been reiterated in latter-day scripture. In 1838 the Lord emphasized this important law in a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith and defined tithing as "one-tenth of all their interest [income] annually" (D&C 119:4).

The years preceding the turn of the century were financially difficult for the young, struggling Church because of the 1890s depression and the escheat of Church funds during the long antipolygamy campaign of the federal government. In May 1899 the aged Lorenzo Snow, President of the Church, traveled from Salt Lake City to St. George, Utah, to comfort members whose lands had been plagued with severe drought. Streams and wells had dried up, and they faced starvation. During this visit President Snow was inspired to invoke the words of Malachi and promise the Saints in their dire and destitute circumstances that if they would pay an honest tithing, the "windows of heaven would be opened." The Saints responded, the rains came, and the people were blessed (Cowan, pp. 15-18).

From this event, the principle of tithing received renewed emphasis throughout the Church. Members responded with increased commitment and faith, and within a few years, the Church was financially sound, and has remained so since. Through the faith and sacrifices of its members, the Church has been able to sustain steady worldwide growth. Latter-day Saints regard the payment of tithing as a privilege and often tell of spiritual and financial blessings that have come through obedience to this law.

In addition to paying tithing, members may contribute to several specially designated funds (see Financial Contributions). On the first Sunday of each month, members fast for two meals and contribute, at a minimum, the cash equivalent of two meals to a fast offering fund, used exclusively to provide assistance to the poor and needy. Missionary support is primarily a family responsibility. Since January 1, 1991, the monthly cost to missionaries and their families has been standardized to the average monthly expense of missionaries worldwide. However, members are also encouraged to contribute to assist those missionaries who have insufficient finances.

FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION. Sound cash management procedures are used in the collection and disbursement of funds. Tithing is contributed at the local ward or branch and is remitted to designated Church headquarters. Area or regional offices around the world collect and disburse funds as directed by the presiding officers at Church headquarters.

Fast offering funds are collected in the wards, where they are first used to care for the needy in the ward. Surplus fast offerings not required for use in the local areas are sent to Church headquarters or area offices. Any deficits from the care of the poor in the local unit are supplemented from general surplus fast offerings. Thus, a local bishop has the means to take care of his ward's welfare needs.

On July 8, 1838, a revelation was received by the Prophet Joseph Smith making known the method for the disbursement of tithing received by the Church: "Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that it [tithing] shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council" (D&C 120:1).

Subsequently, the Council on the Disposition of Tithes, consisting of the First Presidency of the Church, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and the Presiding Bishopric, was established. This council meets regularly and oversees the expenditures of all Church funds worldwide. It approves budgets and financial strategy and establishes financial policy.

Two subcommittees of the Council on the Disposition of Tithes are the Budget Committee and the Appropriations Committee. Both committees consist of the First Presidency, selected members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and members of the Presiding Bishopric.

The Church Budget Office provides staff support to the First Presidency and gives overall administrative direction to the preparation of the annual Church budget. At the beginning of each annual budgeting cycle, budget guidelines are given to Church administrative department heads, international offices, missions, temples, and other units. Within these guidelines, budgets are constructed at the lowest levels of accountability and scrupulously reviewed through various levels of management and councils. The Budget Committee meets periodically to provide in-depth budget review and to formulate budget recommendations to the Council on the Disposition of Tithes.

The Appropriations Committee meets each week. All expenditure requests throughout the world, except those few which have been delegated to a lower level of administration by the Council on the Disposition of Tithes, are reviewed, checked to make certain the request is within budget, and appropriated. Expenditures that have been delegated are reported to the committee.

FINANCIAL CONTROLS. Financial controls are administered through the use of financial policy, budgeting, organization structure, and regular, comprehensive audits. Key financial policy comes from the Council on the Disposition of Tithes. Additional financial policy and procedure directives are issued by the Finance and Records Department, which, under the direction of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric, is responsible for the administration of treasury accounting/controllership, taxation, and risk-management functions.

The Church has an Audit Committee composed of experienced businessmen who are not associated with the Church as employees or General Authorities. This committee reports directly to the First Presidency of the Church and works closely with the Finance and Records Department and the Auditing Department to ensure strict adherence to ethical principles and rigid financial policies and procedures. The Auditing Department also reports directly to the First Presidency of the Church and thus maintains its independence from all other departments. Its staff of certified public accountants performs ongoing audits of finance, operation, and computer systems for Church departments and other Church-controlled organizations. Responses to all audits are required and are monitored.

PARTICIPATION AND INVESTMENTS IN BUSINESS. The First Presidency has established other boards and committees to oversee the management of the Church's investments and reserves (see Church Participation in Business). Each of these key committees is chaired either by a member of the First Presidency or by another appointed General Authority.

The Investment Policy Committee is chaired by the First Presidency and includes the president of the Council of the Twelve, other members of the Twelve as appointed, and the Presiding Bishopric. Its purpose is to establish investment policy and strategy and to review key investment decisions.

The Deseret Management Corporation (DMC) is a corporation with its own board of directors. DMC functions as a holding company for most of the commercial businesses owned by the Church. These companies pay all taxes that are paid by commercial corporations. Some properties are also held for reasons other than investment. In addition to protecting the surroundings of sacred properties, such investments may be maintained to support the ecclesiastical efforts of the Church.

The Church still holds a few properties that were originally established to support commerce in LDS communities (see Economic History of the Church). However, as a result of an evaluation of these holdings and their contributions to its mission, the Church has divested many such holdings.

524 posted on 01/31/2003 6:20:33 PM PST by restornu (<a HREF=" "> Finances)
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To: LiteKeeper

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
9. For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV Luke 10:7
7. Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
525 posted on 01/31/2003 6:22:16 PM PST by Elsie (I trust in Jesus.... THOUSANDS OF EXISTING MANUSCRIPTS speak of Him!)
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To: restornu
I listen to Christian talk radio at work, and the guy just told a caller
that he doesn't have to feel guilty for not tithing, because the New
Testament does not even mention tithing.......
KJV Luke 11:42
 42.  But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
KJV Luke 18:10-13
 10.  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
 11.  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
 12.  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
 13.  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
TRUE!  If you use a newer translation than KJV.  It's called a tenth.

and it is "old covenant"
it is OLDER than 'old covenant!!  and........ it was not a command!
NIV Genesis 14:18-20
 18.  Then Melchizedek king of Salem  brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,
 19.  and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator  of heaven and earth.
 20.  And blessed be  God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
NIV Genesis 28:10-22
 10.  Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Haran.
 11.  When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep.
 12.  He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
 13.  There above it  stood the LORD, and he said: "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.
 14.  Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.
 15.  I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."
 16.  When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it."
 17.  He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven."
 18.  Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it.
 19.  He called that place Bethel,  though the city used to be called Luz.
 20.  Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear
 21.  so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God
 22.  and  this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."

and doesn't apply since Jesus. 

This doesn't sound right to me.  Can you verify?
Let me know your opinion. Thanks, Susan
How about some Scripture instead? it's AFTER the 10 Commandments have been given, but these rules, laws, commands are NOT part of the 'Covenant'.

NIV Leviticus 27:30
 30.  "`A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.
NIV Numbers 18:21
 21.  "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.
NIV Deuteronomy 12:5-6
 5.  But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go;
 6.  there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.
NIV 2 Chronicles 31:5-6
 5.  As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything.
 6.  The men of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the LORD their God, and they piled them in heaps.
NIV Malachi 3:8-10
 8.  "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.   "But you ask, `How do we rob you?'   "In tithes and offerings.
 9.  You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me.
 10.  Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
This is just a small sample of some of the OT verses containing the word 'tithe'.

KJV Hebrews 7:1-12
 1.  For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
 2.  To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
 3.  Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
 4.  Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
 5.  And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
 6.  But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
 7.  And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
 8.  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
 9.  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
 10.  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 11.  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
 12.  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
You'll note that the ONLY qualified RECEIVER of tithes were of the 'Sons of Levi' holding the office of 'priesthood'.
With all this, perhaps I ought to give you the 'official' Wesleyan 'Discipline' take on all this..............
Under the heading of Christian Stewardship:
The Scriptures teach that GOD is the owner of all persons and things, that men His stewards of both life and possessions, that GOD's ownership and man's stewardship ought to be acknowledged, and that men shall be held personally accountable to GOD for the exercise of their stewardship.  To this end all His children should faithfully tithe and present offerings for the support of the gospel.
STOREHOUSE TITHING: Storehouse tithing is a scriptural and practical performance of faithfully and regularly placing the tithe into the church to which the member belongs.  Therefore, the financing of the church shall be based on the plan of storehouse tithing, and The Wesleyan Church shall be regarded by all its people as the storehouse.  All who are a part of The Wesleyan Church are urged to contribute faithfully one-tenth of all their increase as a minimum financial obligation to the Lord and freewill offerings in addition as GOD has prospered them.
(With these verses as references........)
NIV Genesis 14:20
 20.  And blessed be  God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
NIV Genesis 28:22
 22.  and  this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."

NIV Leviticus 27:30-32
 30.  "`A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.
 31.  If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it.
 32.  The entire tithe of the herd and flock--every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod--will be holy to the LORD.
NIV Deuteronomy 14:22
 22.  Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.
NIV Proverbs 3:9
 9.  Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops;
NIV Proverbs 3:9-10
 9.  Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops;
 10.  then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine.
NIV Proverbs 11:24-25
 24.  One man gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty.
 25.  A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.
NIV Malachi 3:10-11
 10.  Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
 11.  I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty.
NIV Matthew 23:23
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
NIV Acts 4:34-35
 34.  There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
 35.  and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
NIV Acts 6:1-4
 1.  In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
 2.  So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
 3.  Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
 4.  and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
NIV 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
 1.  Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do.
 2.  On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
NIV 2 Corinthians 8:13-15
 13.  Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.
 14.  At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality,
 15.  as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."
NIV Hebrews 7:1-9
 1.  This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
 2.  and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 
 6.  This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 
 9.  One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham,

Now then.... just what is an INCREASE???
In farming terms, each year you had to save enough seed for the next years crop, if you ate it or sold it or lost it somehow, you were in BIG TROUBLE!!  If you had a bad crop, you HAD to keep this minimum amount.
So, anything OVER the minimum is known as the 'increase': you plan 10 bushels and harvest 89.  Save the 10 and you got 79.  The 'tithe' would be 10% or 7.9 bushels that would go to the storehouse.
If your herd of ten cows and a bull had 10 calves in the spring, one would go to the church.
Now, in today's economy, what is an INCREASE?
(Here is where there is much 'discussion' ;^)
I see it as whatever your W2 indicates.  Since you had to 'plow' nothing back into your job, ALL your 'income' (from whatever source) is 'increase'.  Some will argue about deductions, that you should only have to tithe AFTER they are subtracted out: just your TAXABLE income.  I can only say that this is not indicated in the Bible.
If it took 3 calves and 26 bushels to make your land payment, that did NOT affect your tithe.  If you had 14 kids, you didn't get a 'deduction' from your tithe.
I think these verses sum up the NT idea of support of the Church............

NIV Luke 6:38
 38.  Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
2 Corinthians 9
 1.  There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the saints.
 2.  For I know your eagerness to help, and I have been boasting about it to the Macedonians, telling them that since last year you in Achaia were ready to give; and your enthusiasm has stirred most of them to action.
 3.  But I am sending the brothers in order that our boasting about you in this matter should not prove hollow, but that you may be ready, as I said you would be.
 4.  For if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we--not to say anything about you--would be ashamed of having been so confident.
 5.  So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.
 6.  Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.
 7.  Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
 8.  And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
 9.  As it is written: "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever."
 10.  Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness.
 11.  You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
 12.  This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God.
 13.  Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.
 14.  And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you.
 15.  Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!
You'll note that the Pharisees did what the LAW 'required' with their tithing, but they did not do it from their heart.  We should definitely give what makes us feel good in our hearts.  Some are stingy, and cheat THEMSELVES by not believing what the Scriptures say: others have dug a deep financial hole and cannot see their way to give as much as they like; others WANT too much worldly goods and are 'saving' for it.  But, there are those who accept God's word and ARE blessed by what they give.
....decided in his heart to give.... it appears that the amount is left to the individual.
would be really nice for the church today: a nice COMMAND.  But since the idea of 'commanding' obediance doesn't WORK too well, I guess we are left with the Pastor and/or the Board to still ASK for money when we need it............ [it's worked so far, in everything we've tried!!]

526 posted on 01/31/2003 6:31:21 PM PST by Elsie (I trust in Jesus.... THOUSANDS OF EXISTING MANUSCRIPTS speak of Him!)
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To: restornu; drstevej; RnMomof7; Wrigley; Elsie
Soo there is still no financial statement published despite the long PR document you downloaded. Nice cult you have there.
527 posted on 01/31/2003 7:37:51 PM PST by CARepubGal (Liberals: what are they good for? Absolutely NOTHING!)
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To: Elsie
Tithing is really a spiritual yardstick! What I mean is the relation between man and his Creator. Like you said it should be done with a happly heart or one should just skip this ordinance.

What the 10% does is help one to keep their focus on the Lord in many areas in their life.

When one is consistant soon the blessing will over flow and it has happen for many of the LDS that have been faithful.

Some still are caught because of debt and living beyond one means and it dose make it a struggle to fullfil. Yet when the effort is applied along with prayer and daily scripture reading the Lord is able to free up those forces that was holding one hostatge. There are endless stories of where folks were in great trouble money wise and when they learn the laws of money they are amazed how the same amount could meet those obligations. And the door opens for an increase in funds.

This is learning how to exercise faith and grow in the ways of the Lord! One of the ways to exercise the Spiritual muscle!

528 posted on 01/31/2003 7:56:24 PM PST by restornu (<a HREF=" "> Finances)
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To: CARepubGal; Illbay; White Mountain; CubicleGuy; Utah Girl; rising tide; Grig; Rad_J
You can view it that way if you like.

I think it is wise not to let anti-LDS know where the LDS invest the money. We get enough oppostion in trying to build the Lord's Temples, or other land investments or what ever the Lord servants need to do to fulfill the Lord work!

This sort of reminds me how some liberals wants our President to tell all what he knows about the sites of Saddam Arms hideouts to be revealed.

Some time when there is a war or a spiritual war it is not wise to show your hand!

529 posted on 01/31/2003 8:09:18 PM PST by restornu
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To: restornu
***I think it is wise not to let anti-LDS know where the LDS invest the money.***

Like the Hoffmann forgery purchases/donations?
530 posted on 01/31/2003 8:45:07 PM PST by drstevej (Michael Jackson, more delightsome every day ???)
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To: Elsie
No, the principle is that those who labor should be compensated for their labor. To assert that is better to not have paid leaders is to go against the clear teaching of Scripture.
531 posted on 01/31/2003 8:56:37 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: restornu
More specifically, the spirit-brother of Jesus! Correct?
532 posted on 01/31/2003 8:58:08 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Codie
The LDS church will utilize Catholic charities in countries where we don't have a presence or access. Catholic charities are pretty well everywhere, they do a wonderful job. East Timor, Kosovo, and the Russian 'stans are some off the top of my head. Every article I read about with the Humanitarian Center mentions that they work with Catholic charities, with the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, UNICEF (ick). Isn't the point that the aid is getting to the people who need it, regardless of who delivers it or provides it or whatever?
533 posted on 01/31/2003 9:11:09 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: restornu; RnMomof7
Tithing is really a spiritual yardstick! of your ability to operate under the Law rather than under grace.

I will not post a LONG treatise on this issue here, as others have chosen to do, but I will refer you to Biblical teaching on this subject. The Christian and Government: Paying Your Taxes

The relevant section is about 1/3rd of the way down, under the heading:
2. In Israel. When God established the nation of Israel, did He have a taxation system?
a) The Lord's tithe

I humbly offer this lesson as a means of expanding the discussion and bringing another perspective to the issue. Please take the time to read it, it is very well done.

534 posted on 01/31/2003 9:12:41 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: drstevej
Please see item #554 on a Biblical Perspective on the issue of tithing. Very well done.
535 posted on 01/31/2003 9:13:46 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: drstevej
oops, item #534. Sorry
536 posted on 01/31/2003 9:14:30 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
At that time he WAS your Spirit brother too! You must remember in the beganing no one was rebelling
But like dark vader he choose to cross over
537 posted on 01/31/2003 9:25:21 PM PST by restornu
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To: restornu; P-Marlowe; Wrigley; LiteKeeper; drstevej; Elsie

I understand you came to Mormonism out of an occult background so the blasphemous statement may not be as easy for you to recognize. Frankly, Mormonism mocks God by calling Satan "spirit brother" with jesus and all the rest of the fairy tale about a preexistence.
538 posted on 01/31/2003 9:29:49 PM PST by CARepubGal (Liberals: what are they good for? Absolutely NOTHING!)
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To: CARepubGal
So when do you believe your existence started? At conception?
539 posted on 01/31/2003 9:32:58 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: CARepubGal
I understand you came to Mormonism out of an mainline/occult background! Mainly Presbyterian!

Got news for you spirits are wait to enter the body of the baby! And when you die the spirit returns to God until Judgement day unless you are wicked then you reside inspirit prison!

SO! if a Spirit returns than it had to pre-exist!

540 posted on 01/31/2003 9:44:16 PM PST by restornu
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To: restornu
In a word, you have some "screwy" theology. The Scriptures teach that Lucifer is a fallen angel who led one third of the angels in rebellion against God. And that Jesus is the Creator God of the Universe. Your "updated scriptures" may tell you differently, but that is a real stretch!
541 posted on 01/31/2003 9:44:35 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Utah Girl
It is God who gives life and breath to every child born on this earth. Although He foreknew us, yes our life began at the moment of conception.
542 posted on 01/31/2003 9:46:29 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
NO! it is you that have some "screwy" theology" the Father and Son as well as the Holy Ghost all in ONE entity! You even have to change the defenition of words to tell your story! You are incapable of reading the words as they are in scripture.

Yet if you read this same words in a novel about a father and son you would not put them in the same spiritual forum.

It is a fact Jesus has a resurrected Body of Flesh and Bone! So if he is the Son of Heavenly Father, His Father to would have a Body of Flesh and Bone! It is you guys that reject logic!

543 posted on 01/31/2003 10:00:38 PM PST by restornu
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To: restornu
Try again:
John 4:24 "God is Spirit"
Luke 24:36-43, "[A] spirit does not have flesh and bones."
1 Timothy 1:17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God."

The Bible teaches that to reveal Himself to mortal man, the Second Person of the Trinity humbled Himself, and took on flesh, and became a Man - John 1:14

And the Man, the Second Adam, died on a Cross for you and me, to take away our sin, and to make available to us eternal life.

544 posted on 01/31/2003 10:17:02 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper; Illbay; White Mountain; CubicleGuy; Utah Girl; rising tide; Grig; Rad_J
Try again:
John 4:24 "God is Spirit"
Luke 24:36-43, "[A] spirit does not have flesh and bone and Bones."

1 Timothy 1:17
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God."

Luke 24
36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(those who die are spirit and Jesus is explaining that he has a resurrected body not like those who die and had to wait to receive the resurrected body)

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

49 ¶ And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

50 ¶ And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.


Now who has a Spirit?
1-Pre-Existent spirit

2-Fallen angels like Lucifer! will never receive a body of Flesh and Bone

3-Those who pass on are leave their mortal body and are Spirits until Judgement Day


Who has an immortal Body?
1-Jesus has a resurrected body of Flesh and Bone

2-Two angels men in Sodam during the time of Lot

3-Those who rose from the grave after the resurrection of Jesus.

4-Two Angels that were there when Jesus accendant to Heaven!


The Father and Son are one in mind.

The Son Talks to the Father and the Heavenly Father talks to the Son.

The Father said this is my beloved Son hear him.


John 4
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST worship him in spirit and in truth.

So we to MUST worship God in SPIRIT! Our Spirits are to worship God.(we are also Spirit and body of Flesh and Blood!

1Tim. 1
17 Now unto the King ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, IMVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen

Now we read that the Heavenly Father is -

1- Eternal

2- Immortal

3- Invisible

The light of the Heavenly Father is so bright that you could not endur seeing him in you natural form.

Jesus is -

1- Eternal- (so are our spirits eternal)

2- Immortal

3- Invisible- Now we would have to be taken up not in our natural state to see him.

545 posted on 01/31/2003 11:20:45 PM PST by restornu
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To: restornu
I have been a Christian for 30 years; I have been a pastor for 24 years. I have never seen such tortured eisegesis

The Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines 'eisegesis' as: an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

To continue this thread with you would make me guilty of casting "pearls before swine."

Enjoy your twisted, tortured re-interpretation of Scripture. My guess, if you are like most Mormons,is that none of what you have said is based on your own thinking, but has been fed to you by false prophets, who are anit-Christ.

So, barring some amazing twist, I am through on this thread.

546 posted on 01/31/2003 11:29:35 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Elsie

A gif for Elsie!
547 posted on 01/31/2003 11:29:43 PM PST by restornu
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To: Illbay; restornu; White Mountain; CubicleGuy; Utah Girl; rising tide; Grig; Rad_J; the_doc; ...
Well, Illbay, I think you've just given us an object lesson in heathen raging. If I ever become a Christ-hating blasphemer, I'll have as my role models none but the best.

Our prophets and our apostles are some of the most profoundly wise men ever put on this planet.

Which group comes in second, the Imperial Wizards of the Ku Klux Klan?

Ah, racism is beside the point.

The real issue is, is the Mormon Jesus the real Jesus? It's been argued over, here and elsewhere. But I don't think anyone's yet asked a simple question. If the Mormon Jesus isn't the real Jesus, who is he?


  1. The Mormon Jesus advocated free will, while the Mormon Lucifer advocated predestination. But the real Jesus said:
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)


    But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I had said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any hand pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:25-30
    And who do the Mormons attribute the above teachings to?

  2. The Mormon Jesus teaches men that, through Temple work, "Ye shall be as gods" and that you can be like the Most High. Where have we heard that line before?

Joe Smith flipped Jesus and Satan.

The Mormon Jesus is Satan.

As the_doc would say, Mormons are caught in a weird trap: they worship Satan, and they don't even know it.

Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into a ditch? (Luke 6:39b)

548 posted on 02/01/2003 1:13:29 AM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: restornu

Jailbait, maybe..............
549 posted on 02/01/2003 5:25:33 AM PST by Elsie (I trust in Jesus.... THOUSANDS OF EXISTING MANUSCRIPTS speak of Him!)
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To: restornu
It could have been worse, I guess......
550 posted on 02/01/2003 5:39:14 AM PST by Elsie (I trust in Jesus.... THOUSANDS OF EXISTING MANUSCRIPTS speak of Him!)
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