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Utah Baby Names (That distinctive name that says, "I'm Mormon.")
The Utah Baby Namer ^ | Wes and Cari Clark

Posted on 01/24/2003 4:41:20 PM PST by A.J.Armitage

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To: Wrigley; Codie; Elsie; Utah Girl
  The LDS Church boasts of not having a paid clergy. Many of them believe that when a man receives a salary from a particular group it compromises his integrity. Even though their leaders on the local level receive no pay for their services, this is not true of their top leadership. President Gordon B. Hinckley stated: "What of the Mormon clergy? ...There is no paid or professional ministry. Thirty-nine general officers and the presidents of missions are given living allowances."

Encyclopedia of Mormonism

    "Because the Church has no professional clergy, it is administered at every level through LAY PARTICIPATION AND LEADERSHIP, and officials other than the General Authorities contribute their time and talents without remuneration. ...Because the General Authorities are obliged to leave their regular employment for full-time Church service, they receive a modest living allowance provided from income on Church investments."

    Since the Mormon Church concedes the right to pay those who serve in a full-time capacity we are left to wonder why they have such strong objections to ministers receiving a "modest living allowance." The claim is made that these funds do not come from tithing but from business investments. Why this should make a difference is not explained. Any money given to or earned by the church should be considered as equally sacred.

    The president is also supplied with a home. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Aug. 27, 1994, p. E1, the president of the LDS Church lives in a "downtown condominium, the official residence of church presidents." In the Salt Lake Tribune, Dec. 8, 1988, we read "The $1.2 million condominium at 40 N. State that is home to the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be exempt from property taxes, Salt Lake County commissioners ruled Tuesday."

    Also, the LDS Church maintains a general missionary fund. Many missionaries come from either poor countries or their families are not able to contribute to their mission.

    "Missionary support is primarily a family responsibility... However, members are also encouraged to contribute to assist those missionaries who have insufficient finances." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism,)

    Since some LDS missionaries receive support from a general fund why object to missionaries in other churches receiving funds from their church?

    Even though Mission Presidents (men who oversee the missionaries in various geographical locations) resign from their secular jobs during their three years of church service, they still receive financial help. In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism we read:

    "The calling [to be a Mission President] is not a regular remunerative position,...The family involved gives of its time and energies without salary, though there is a modest allowance for living expenses." (p. 914)

    Again we are left to wonder at the Mormon distinction between "living expenses" and "salary."

    Another puzzling aspect of Mormonism is that there is no accounting to the membership of church funds. They are never informed as to the amount of the "modest living allowance" given to their top leaders. In the Wall Street Journal, Nov. 9, 1983, the salary given to a Seventy (second tier of LDS General Authorities, lower than an Apostle) was reported to be $40,000. Obviously, with inflation this salary would be much higher today. If housing is factored in (as in the case of the president of the church) the salary would be quite substantial. When George P. Lee, former Seventy, was terminated in 1989, the LDS Church immediately confiscated his church credit card (Salt Lake Tribune, Sept. 10, 1989). We are left to wonder about what other benefits go with "full-time Church service." For more information on LDS wealth see Mormon America: The Power and the Promise, by Richard and Joan Ostling.

    In Christian churches the financial statement is a matter of public record. There is no guesswork as to the amount a church pays its minister.


441 posted on 01/30/2003 3:40:39 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Illbay
Your Nicene Creed describe god to you..not to me....
442 posted on 01/30/2003 3:50:52 PM PST by restornu (Clones have no homes:))
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To: RnMomof7
Great research. Thanks for taking the time.

What we need answers for:

1. living allowances
2. living expenses
3. How many church credit cards are out there?
4. How come no accounting of church funds? What's being hidden?

We received my churches finacial statements in our mailboxes at church Sunday. Everything was laid out. And if I had any questions I could walk up to any Elder or the Treasurer and that man would have answered any questions I have.

Each year we have an annual budget meeting. I've been to many a meeting where everything was discussed and questions were answered. Then the budget was voted on.

443 posted on 01/30/2003 4:03:28 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: RnMomof7
The ONLY people who are paid in the LDS church are the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the Area presidents (who oversee the mission presidents, etc), some of the seventies (I think the First Quorum, I will have to find out to be factual.) That is probably 100- people (the figure may be low), who run a church of 11 million. The bishops, stake presidents, regional presidents, and ALL callings in the church are not paid, we are volunteers. That includes cleaning the churches weekly (no janitors), cleaning the temples (pretty much volunteer, except for the yearly cleaning when the temple is closed and repairs are made, carpets cleaned, etc.) I know for a fact that those who are called to the general presidencies (such as Primary, Young Women, and Relief Society) are not paid. As to the reason the few leaders are paid, is because they devote their time to the Lord and to running a worldwide church. Like Illbay said a few posts ago, there is no extra frippery for these men. They are very aware that they will be held accountable on how they have spent their money.

One personal note. When my father was called as a mission president, he had just retired. He was given a certain amount of money for his duties, and there was a home provided for he and my mother to live in (known as the mission president's home.) My dad had a budget for gasoline when he went on the mission's business to visit the missionaries he was in charge of to see how they were doing. When we went down to visit my parents in Chile, any family or sightseeing trips he and my mom took were paid for out of their own pockets. Oh, and a car was provided for the mission president. My father was very aware of the money angle, as were the other mission presidents, and are very careful to spend the money appropriately that is provided by the church.

And believe you me, most of us LDS people do not aspire to become an apostle or whatever. There might be a few, but there isn't a system where one works his way up the hierarchy of the church. We are called of the Lord to serve him and to serve others in our wards, stakes, etc.

And you are comparing apples to oranges. A pastor in your church is comparable to a bishop in my ward (oversees about 400 people, depending on the location.) The bishop is not paid in our church. You are comparing your pastor who has one congregation to a prophet, or apostles, or an area president who are over many wards and stakes.

I know that President Hinckley came from very humble circumstances. President Monson was raised by a widowed mother. Elder Russell Nelson was a heart surgeon. Elder Dallin H Oaks was a lawyer. Elder Boyd K Packer worked for the Church Educational System (like my dad did,the salary was nothing to shout about at all.) Men and women are called from all walks of life, it is their worthiness and willingness to serve the Lord with all their hearts, might, mind, and souls that determines their callings in the LDS church. Not their social status or how much money they are worth.

444 posted on 01/30/2003 4:15:51 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: RnMomof7
Please stop impugning the integrity of our church leaders. We do NOT have a paid clergy. But I think you think you have found something that gets our goat, so you will keep harping on this issue. I trust the leaders of my church, and no matter how you want to smear them, and turn one of us against another by insinuating that some get allowances and live high on the hog, and others don't, you are far from the truth.
445 posted on 01/30/2003 4:19:23 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: Utah Girl; Illbay; White Mountain; CubicleGuy; rising tide; Grig; Rad_J
Each LDS should file this, for future Reference! For offensive souls keep bring up the same questions everytime a new book rearranges the truth to spin it in a new mode to see if it will fly! and when *BD sets in, they repeating themselves!

*bashing dementia

446 posted on 01/30/2003 5:02:45 PM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: RnMomof7 my man have a paid clergy..

I'm "clergy." I'm not paid.

That we have expenses reimbursed in money or (as is mostly the case) in kind is far, far, far different from Chri$tianity Incorporated's lucrative financial empire.

447 posted on 01/30/2003 7:34:17 PM PST by Illbay
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To: Wrigley
I'm sure they do. There are MANY, MANY fine people among "Christians" who do actually follow Christ, and loath hypocrisy.

But you'll not find that type spending all their time "bashing" the precepts and tenets of another's religion.

448 posted on 01/30/2003 7:35:40 PM PST by Illbay
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To: Codie
Er, how about....Catholic Charities?

Look it up. That's the name.

449 posted on 01/30/2003 7:36:08 PM PST by Illbay
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To: Wrigley
And those same Christians who look upon Benny Hinn with disdain see Joseph Smith in much the same light.

Those who try to portray Joseph Smith in that light HAVE no light to see by in the first place. Might as well be the blind men and the elephant. Or duck.

You know NOTHING about the prophet you so disdain, NOTHING. You have read and swallowed lies and calumny, and you eagerly do so just like all the godless in the last two centuries have done.

You have not a shred of the holy spirit in you, not even a smidgen.

There are many outside our faith that do, but they are fellow-travelers, not liars-in-wait-to-deceive such as yourself, you pussilanimous half-parody of a Pharisee.

Had you lived in the days of the Savior's walk on this earth, you WOULD have eagerly cast the first stone.

450 posted on 01/30/2003 7:39:06 PM PST by Illbay
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To: P-Marlowe
Sorry, it has taken me a bit to get back to you. Here is the Jesus Christ I believe in:

Latter-day Saints, unlike many other Christian traditions, do not accept the definitions of God as created by the Greek philosophers. Our beliefs about the Godhead "are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]." (The Holy Bible, Ephesians 2:20)

Using the apostolic and prophetic teachings as our base, Latter-day Saints believe in the Jesus who was the preexistent Word of the Father; that was the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; that was the God of Abraham , Isaac, and Jacob; that was the Only Begotten Son of God who was born to the virgin Mary in the town of Bethlehem; that was baptized by John; that healed the sick and raised the dead, that walked on water, multiplied loaves and fishes, and performed many other miracles; that set a perfect example for mankind to emulate and that all men and women are commanded to follow his teachings and example in all things.

We believe that Jesus suffered in the garden and on the cross, until he finally died as a willing sacrifice for mankind in order to bring about an infinite atonement through the shedding of his blood. After his death, we believe that he was physically resurrected and that he ascended into the heavens, from which he will come at the end of this world to establish his kingdom upon the earth and eventually to judge both the living and the dead. We believe Jesus is and was the Holy Messiah, the Savior and Redeemer of the world and all those who will follow him. Finally, we believe in the Jesus who is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.

Now that we have established the identity of the Jesus Christ in whom Latter-day Saints believe, may I ask who is the Jesus in whom you believe?
Taken from Do Mormons believe in a different Jesus?

451 posted on 01/30/2003 7:40:19 PM PST by Utah Girl (Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)
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To: RnMomof7
Your disgorgement of a bunch of **** from YAAMWSTSTLI (Yet Another Anti-Mormon Website Spewing The Same Tired Lies, Inc.) is just that: parrot droppings. Not a single word you've written is true. Even the duck is a caricature.

Not surprising, given the shallowness of your intellect and the callowness of your soul.

452 posted on 01/30/2003 7:41:02 PM PST by Illbay
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To: Wrigley
What we need answers for:

What YOU need answers for is HOW to begin the repentence process. Your Lying-In-Wait-To-Deceive game is taking you farther and farther down the road to hellfire, and were I you, I'd turn about quick.

Worry less about the great work of Christ's ONLY true Church on the face of the earth, and more about your own dark, dirty, filthy works.

The former has no effect on you at all. The latter will damn you for eternity if you do not repent.

453 posted on 01/30/2003 7:43:14 PM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay; RnMomof7; drstevej; CCWoody; P-Marlowe; Wrigley; Elsie
That is without a doubt the biggest pile of HORSE HILLARY! I have seen to date on this site. For starters, Gordon Hinckley flies everywhere on John Huntsman's private jet. He and the other 14 members of the Quorum of the 12 apostles are paid for their full time jobs and do not have to spend a cent on business trips, being put up by some Stake President or Mission President at the expense of these gentlemen. And the Jesus Mormons claim is NOT repeat NOT the Jesus of the bible. Mormonism is a false church founded on lechery and lies. Repent Illbay and learn who the real Jesus is. You are in the heart of Baptist country: have a chat with a local pastor about the nature of God.
454 posted on 01/30/2003 9:46:51 PM PST by CARepubGal (Liberals: what are they good for? Absolutely NOTHING!)
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To: Illbay; Wrigley; CARepubGal; White Mountain; RnMomof7; Elsie
***Christ's ONLY true Church on the face of the earth***

Actually, your arrogance here is far more honest than many of the FR LDS folks who pretend that Mormonism is a variety of Christianity.
455 posted on 01/30/2003 10:06:06 PM PST by drstevej
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To: Illbay; RnMomof7; drstevej; CCWoody
$25 Million for the San Diego Temple. $0 to the poor 45 minutes south or the working poor in San Diego for that matter. Nice fruits of Mormonism. Hinckley takes home $400K + in non taxable income. Steve or Woody: Do either of you have take home pay in that league? And why is it that the Mormons will not disclose their financials? In fact, they have not disclosed any financial information since 1959. All non Mormon churches make this information accessable. What logic is there to the Mormons not disclosing the money going in and out of the organization?
456 posted on 01/30/2003 10:11:25 PM PST by CARepubGal (Liberals: what are they good for? Absolutely NOTHING!)
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To: CARepubGal; Illbay; White Mountain; CubicleGuy; Utah Girl; rising tide; Grig; Rad_J
Mormonism is a false church founded on lechery and lies

CA what did you hear during Sunday School, Gospel Doctrine, and Relief Society even Sacrament?

Were you able to honor fast Sunday?
Were you consistence in prayer and reading your scriptures daily?
Really CA how many years did you endur?

I think these are reasonable questions?

457 posted on 01/30/2003 10:12:35 PM PST by restornu (Clones are homeless!)
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To: CARepubGal
And the Jesus Mormons claim is NOT repeat NOT the Jesus of the bible.

Wow, what an interesting and ORIGINAL claim!

How convenient for you anti-Christ "nitwits". When you run out of ideas, you just start and the beginning and go all over again!

The fact that you appear to be "going all over yourself" to the casual observer, of course, is inconvenient, but don't let that stop you (especially when you have other religious-incontinents standing by to tell you that your Urine makes the best lemonade they ever tasted).

458 posted on 01/30/2003 10:18:49 PM PST by Illbay
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To: CARepubGal
You have not one scintilla of an iota of a smidgen what you're talking about.

NO OTHER RELIGIOUS DENOMINATION ON EARTH, expecting only the Roman Catholic Church, does more charitable work, gives more in terms of money, goods and services, than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Your ignorance does you great service; it reveals you for the smarmy antiChrist you are.

459 posted on 01/30/2003 10:20:22 PM PST by Illbay
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To: restornu; RnMomof7; drstevej; Wrigley; P-Marlowe; Elsie; CCWoody; LiteKeeper
Since the evidence you seek will lead in your mind to the conclusion that:

1. I sinned my way out of the LDS churhc
2. I was offended by someone
3. I was lazy
4. I never really had a testimony.

As for what I heard, false teachings reinforced by conditional friendship and love. Guilt heaped up higher and higher. And as for any bible reading, church attendance and other temporal requirements, any lacks therein are between me and the Lord. My Pastor does not track my attendance at church, what I volunteer for at church, how much I give in the offering and what I do in my daily life outside church. Frankly, he is putting his family first and Boundaries (book that explains what Boundaries are and why they are so very critical) are respected. It is nice being treated as an adult. I pray Rest you can find a real relationship with the Lord.
460 posted on 01/30/2003 10:24:32 PM PST by CARepubGal (Liberals: what are they good for? Absolutely NOTHING!)
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