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East and West
Sapphires | Jonathan Cahn

Posted on 02/03/2003 12:01:34 PM PST by WhatNot

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To: CCWoody
There is only one way to to be clean and that is if the Lord Himself washes you:

Y'know, I actually agree with you here. Even animal sacrifice was not efficacious without repentance (and in pertinent cases, restitution to the wronged), and it was only efficacious because God said that He would accept it for that purpose. The sacrifice was essentially symbolic, not efficacious in and of itself.

It doesn't matter that the Lord came into this world centuries after David died. The Lord still washed David.

This is the answer I typically get to this question. WhatNot's reply was interesting to me because it was taking a different angle. The fact that the passage from the psalm here is in the present (or past) tense doesn't pose any problem to you, even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?

21 posted on 02/03/2003 1:37:16 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
The fact that the passage from the psalm here is in the present (or past) tense doesn't pose any problem to you, even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?

You putting God in a "time box?"

SD

22 posted on 02/03/2003 1:38:59 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: WhatNot
Look, if you expect me to take you seriously at all and not just as another religion forum thug, then I suggest you stop changing the words I write, especially when those words are written on the very same thread we are posting on RIGHT NOW, and therefore can easily be checked. What I said was with the coming of Jesus Christ the sin nature could now be dealt with, I did NOT say Christ removed it.

There is no need to get testy. I really am trying to engage in dialogue with you. I'm not trying to misrepresent your position, and if I paraphrase something in a way that fails properly to represent your position, please let me know.

In this case, it is true that in your #10 you stated "...but the sin nature could not be dealt with once and for all untill Christ came". However, you also posted the following earlier in the thread:

Rejoice, you are totally free. He has removed your sins, your past failures from you - as far as the east is from the west. -- original article

Do you mean the whole Psalm, the concept of Sin being removed -- your reply #7

Now I think you can see where I got the "removal" thing from.

Let me try to restate it, and see if I have a clear understanding of your belief. In the case of the "Mosaic covenant", "sin" is removed, but the "sin nature" remains. In the "new covenant", "sin" is removed, and the "sin nature" can now be dealt with? Does this sound right?

23 posted on 02/03/2003 1:47:18 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: SoothingDave
You putting God in a "time box?"

According to Christian belief, God became incarnate in Jesus at a specific point in time. It is legitimate to speak in this context of "before" and "after" the incarnation.

24 posted on 02/03/2003 1:49:48 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
According to Christian belief, God became incarnate in Jesus at a specific point in time. It is legitimate to speak in this context of "before" and "after" the incarnation.

Yes, but you said "even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?"

The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment.

The tense of the verbs in Isaiah reflect this.

SD

25 posted on 02/03/2003 1:58:27 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
If that is the case, then why did God establish the levitical sacrificial system at all? He could've just told Moses, "Dude, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it in the future".
26 posted on 02/03/2003 2:05:21 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: SoothingDave
For that matter, why not have Jesus born at the time of Moses or Isaiah instead of when he was? He could have been executed by the Egyptians or Assyrians instead of the Romans. Why that time?
27 posted on 02/03/2003 2:06:48 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
Let me try to restate it, and see if I have a clear understanding of your belief. In the case of the "Mosaic covenant", "sin" is removed, but the "sin nature" remains. In the "new covenant", "sin" is removed, and the "sin nature" can now be dealt with? Does this sound right?

I'm sorry for the rebuke, however if you look closely just on this thread alone you can see how people love to misquote or ignore entirely what other people are saying so that they can validate their own beliefs. In answer to your question that's about right, Christ gives us the strength we need to turn away from what our flesh loves to be fed "habitual sinning". And Christ also provides forgiveness for all sins we commit against Him, past, present and future if we truly repent, of course, only God knows your heart.

28 posted on 02/03/2003 2:07:12 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: angelo
Remember that I have the whole Book: Hey, the good news is that the saving grace of God was given to the saints before time began.
The saving grace of God was given to David before time began.
The saving grace of God was given to me before time began.

I can't help it if the Arminians who hate the truth of the Bible have confused you angelo. I can only preach to you the things concerning the kingdom of God and of the Reign of Christ. If you believe it, then I am to you the savor of life to life. If you do not believe it, then I am to you the savor of death to death. In either event, I am the sweet savor of Christ to God among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

Woody.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. ~ Ephesians 1
29 posted on 02/03/2003 2:09:22 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: WhatNot
I'm sorry for the rebuke

That's okay. You don't know me, and I know how these threads can get sometimes! ;o)

Is what you call "sin nature" comparable to what others believe about "original sin" (i.e., a fallen nature passed down to us from Adam and Eve)? Or is it more a matter of, as you put it in your last post, "habitual sin" that is the result of our own past choices and actions?

30 posted on 02/03/2003 2:10:35 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
If that is the case, then why did God establish the levitical sacrificial system at all? He could've just told Moses, "Dude, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it in the future".

Foreshadowing. God loves a good story, played out in many acts.

Or, if you want to get progressive about it, God was slowly, through the ages, weaning His people away from child sacrifice, to animal sacrifice, to the One Perfect Sacrifice, that can cure all.

For that matter, why not have Jesus born at the time of Moses or Isaiah instead of when he was? He could have been executed by the Egyptians or Assyrians instead of the Romans. Why that time?

Dunno. God has to have some reason, don't ya think? For one, the time was right in the development of the people.

SD

31 posted on 02/03/2003 2:11:58 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave; angelo
The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment. ~ SD Woody.
32 posted on 02/03/2003 2:15:37 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Remember that I have the whole Book:

You've made this point already. There is really no need to repeat it. I also "have" several translations of the Christian scriptures, and have read them many times.

Hey, the good news is that the saving grace of God was given to the saints before time began.

Okay, thank you for answering my question.

33 posted on 02/03/2003 2:16:29 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: CCWoody; angelo
The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment. ~ SD

See what I mean, angelo, about others perverting the truth of the Bible. The atonement was given to the saints before time began, but has been revealed for us at a certain point in history.

I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. God, being eternal and outside of time, has this moment always present to Him. Therefore, He can apply the merits of this atonement to any other point in time. Whether we would consider it "before" or "after" the Crucifixion.

That's what I meant, and I venture angelo understood it without your usual condescending commentary.

Obviously, SD, is making some kind of reference to the weekly murder of the Lord that they believe happens on their altars.

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about. Nice slur though. Did God make you say that?

SD

34 posted on 02/03/2003 2:20:02 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
God was slowly, through the ages, weaning His people away from child sacrifice, to animal sacrifice

Maimonides speculated that the progression in the Hebrew scriptures was away from animal sacrifice; that it was originally permitted as an accommodation to the wishes of the Israelites, but was gradually restricted over time.

35 posted on 02/03/2003 2:22:13 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: angelo
Maimonides speculated that the progression in the Hebrew scriptures was away from animal sacrifice; that it was originally permitted as an accommodation to the wishes of the Israelites, but was gradually restricted over time.

Yes, we've discussed this before. The "Christ event" may have accelerated this process, which was already in place. We have retained a sacramental or symbolic sacrifice, where the Jews got away from it completely.

SD

36 posted on 02/03/2003 2:25:41 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: angelo
I believe "habitual sin" springs forth from out of our fallen nature, as does all other sin. Unfortunately we do have to live with the consequences of our past actions and the choices we made in our unforgiven state for the rest of our life, but when we come to Christ, He promises to help us through whatever problems we have today, because of our past decisions.
37 posted on 02/03/2003 2:27:45 PM PST by WhatNot
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To: SoothingDave; angelo
I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. ~ SoothingDave Woody.
38 posted on 02/03/2003 2:45:25 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: angelo
Okay, thank you for answering my question. ~ angelo Woody.
39 posted on 02/03/2003 2:50:49 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment.

I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. ~ SoothingDave

Except that you did not say this. You said that the act of providing that atonement is always present as in a present moment in time. You really said this.

Yes, I did. I also said, "to God." Do you not think God is capable of accessing any moment in time, form his vantage outside of time? I said "the act of expiation, to God, is always present." Meaning not that the expiation is to God (though it is), but that the act is always present to God.

Do you not believe that? Can God not access that moment in time?

I can only be led that you somehow think this is the blasphemous eucharist (sp) you follow, where the Lord is sacrificed on the altar every time you "celebrate" it.

You ar eled to believe wrongly. Examine what I said, and stop trying to bring your erroneous notions about the Eucharist into eveyrthing, in a vain atempt to rpvoe yoru superiority. OK?

Address what I said, not what you are imagining me to say.

SD

40 posted on 02/03/2003 2:51:00 PM PST by SoothingDave
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