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Conservative vs. Traditional Catholicism - Distinctions with Philosophical Differences
Latin Mass Magazine ^ | Spring 2001 | Fr. Chad Ripperger, FSSP

Posted on 07/15/2003 2:07:08 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah

Conservative vs. Traditional Catholicism by Fr. Chad Ripperger, F.S.S.P.

Distinctions with Philosophical Differences

In 1996, a group of friends had lunch in Rome at the Czechoslovakian college. One of the priests who offers Mass according to the new rite was a bit dumbfounded. He had written an article in which he had discussed certain aspects of the liturgical reform. His puzzlement came from the fact that traditionalists had attacked his article and he could not understand why. A traditionalist seminarian said to the priest, “We agree that something has to be done about the liturgy, but we do not agree on what should be done.” Traditionalists and neoconservatives often find each other mystifying, and the reason for this has to do with the relationship each position holds with respect to ecclesiastical tradition.

The term “traditionalist” has two different meanings. The first is the heresy condemned by the Church, i.e., a philosophical/religious system that depreciates human reason and establishes the tradition of mankind as the only criterion for truth and certainty. This heresy denies the ability of reason to know the truth and thus maintains that truth must be gained through tradition alone. It is different from the current movement in the Church which clearly recognizes the ability of reason to know the truth but which sees the good of the tradition of the Church and would like to see it re-established.

The term “neoconservative,” on the other hand, refers to those who are considered the more conservative members of the Church. More often than not they hold orthodox positions, but they would not assert that it is strictly necessary to reconnect with ecclesiastical tradition. The prefix “neo” is used because they are not the same as those conservatives in authority in the Church immediately before, during and after the Second Vatican Council. The current conservatives, that is, the neoconservatives, are different insofar as the conservatives of the earlier period sought to maintain the current ecclesiastical traditions that were eventually lost.

All of these labels have a certain inadequacy, of course, but since they are operative in the current ecclesiastical climate we will use them here in order to denote certain theological and philosophical positions. It should be noted, however, that the term “liberal” is often misleading. Many “liberals” are, in fact, unorthodox and do not believe what the Church believes. One can legitimately be a liberal if and only if one upholds all of the authentic teachings of the Church and then in matters of discipline or legitimate debate holds a more lenient posture. But often liberalism is merely another name for what is really unorthodox.

In classical theological manuals, textbooks and catechisms, the word “tradition” was given a twofold meaning. The first meaning of the term “tradition” was taken from its Latin root – tradere – meaning “to pass on.” In this sense, the word tradition refers to all of those things that are passed on from one generation to the next. This would include all of the divine truths that the Church passes on to subsequent generations, including the Scriptures.

The second, or more restrictive sense of tradition, refers to a twofold division within what is passed on and not written down. In this case, Scripture is distinguished from tradition as Scripture is written, whereas tradition, in the stricter sense, refers to those unwritten things that were passed down. Tradition in the stricter sense, then, is divided into divine tradition and ecclesiastical tradition. Divine tradition is further divided according to dominical tradition (that which was given directly by Our Lord while on earth) and apostolic tradition (that which the apostles passed on under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost).1

Divine tradition is that tradition which constitutes one of the sources of revelation, i.e., a source of our knowledge about those things that were revealed to man by God. This means that divine tradition is intrinsic to the Deposit of Faith, which constitutes all of the divinely revealed truths necessary for salvation and passed on by the Church in an uninterrupted tradition. Since it is intrinsic to the Deposit of Faith, this form of tradition is sometimes called intrinsic tradition, prime examples of which are the Magisterium of the Church and the sacraments, since they were established by Jesus Christ and passed on and will be passed on until the end of time.2

Ecclesiastical tradition comprises all of those things that are not intrinsic to the Deposit of Faith but which form the heritage and patrimony of the work of previous generations graciously passed on by the Church to subsequent generations for their benefit. Because it is extrinsic to the Deposit of Faith, ecclesiastical tradition is also called extrinsic tradition, examples of which include the Church’s disciplinary code as set out in canon law and non-infallible teachings of the ordinary Magisterium. This would include such things as those contained in apostolic exhortations and encyclicals in which infallibility is not enjoyed – such as, for example, when Pope Leo XIII in Immortale Dei asserts that the Church is a perfect society.

Because God Himself entrusted the Deposit of Faith to the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church is inherently traditional. Since all men by nature desire to know,3 the Church cannot help but develop an ecclesiastical tradition. Once man was given the Deposit of Faith, he naturally reflected upon the Deposit resulting in a greater understanding of it. That understanding was then passed on. This also means that the Church herself would pass judgment upon the Deposit in magisterial acts and these magisterial acts become part of the ecclesiastical tradition. The ecclesiastical tradition, therefore, was formed over the course of time, in the life of the Church throughout the twenty centuries of its existence. This also indicates that one must distinguish between that which pertains to the Deposit and that which does not. The Church sometimes passes judgment on the Deposit of Faith in order to clarify the teaching contained within the Deposit for the good of the Church, such as when Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady. Other magisterial acts are merely extrinsic to the Deposit of Faith and do not necessarily point to anything within the Deposit, but which may be connected to the Deposit in some way. This would include some ordinary magisterial acts as well as matters of discipline. However, more is contained in ecclesiastical tradition than just the acts of the Magisterium.

Historically, ecclesiastical (or extrinsic) tradition developed according to two principles:

The first principle was the Deposit of Faith itself. Catholics used teachings within the Deposit to develop schools of spirituality, Church discipline and legislation, as well as all of the other things that pertain to ecclesiastical tradition. Since the teaching of Christ must govern the life of the Church, it was necessary for any authentic extrinsic tradition (e.g., canon law) to be consistent with those teachings. Anything that was contrary to the teachings contained in the Deposit caused the Church great affliction but over time was cut off from the life of the Church. Here we have in mind those who develop heterodox teachings of their own (heresies), as well as spiritualities and customs which are contrary to the teachings of the Church.

The second principle was the nature of man. Scripture itself tells us a great deal about man, and as philosophical systems advanced in an understanding of the nature of man, especially in the medieval period, the extrinsic tradition was based upon the knowledge of that nature. Furthermore, it was known to be a wounded nature, that is, one affected by Original Sin, so the extrinsic tradition was designed to aid man in his condition. For example, many schools of spirituality and rules of the religious orders were designed in order to help man overcome his proclivity to self-will and concupiscence in order to conform himself to the ideals taught within the Deposit. Those who fashioned the extrinsic tradition were often saints who were guided and helped by divine aid in establishing some custom or aspect of the extrinsic tradition that was passed on to subsequent generations. The extrinsic tradition came to form the magnificent patrimony and heritage of all Catholics.

As the Modernist crisis grew under the impetus of modern philosophy, the extrinsic tradition was eroded and subverted due to several factors. The first was a change of view about the nature of man. With the onslaught of rationalism, then empiricism and later Kantianism and other modern innovations about the nature of man, the Thomistic, realist view of man was supplanted. At first, this occurred outside the Church and was kept at bay by formal teaching within the Church that maintained a proper view of man. The Protestants, not having an intellectual heritage, quickly succumbed to the modern philosophies. As the Modernist crisis spread within the Church and the curiosity and fascination with modern philosophy grew, the view of man held by Catholics began to change in the latter part of the nineteenth century and during the twentieth.

Rationalism also changed how man viewed revelation. Since rationalists do not believe that one can come to true intellectual knowledge by means of the senses, then that which pertained to the senses was systematically ignored or rejected. Since revelation is something introduced into sensible reality, revelation came under direct attack. Moreover, if one is cut off from reality, then one is locked up inside himself and thus what pertains to one’s own experience becomes paramount. After Descartes came Spinoza, who systematically attacked the authenticity of oral tradition regarding the Scriptures,4 and through his philosophy he began to change people’s view of the world. As empiricism rose, the view of man as simply a material being led to fixing man’s meaning in the “now” or always in the present. Since for the empiricist man’s meaning is found in what he senses and feels, this development led eventually to a lack of interest in the past since the past as such (and the future for that matter) can neither be sensed nor fulfill our sensible desires. With the advent of Hegel, who held that there was only one existing thing in a constant state of flux, the intellectual groundwork was laid for a wholesale lack of interest in and distrust of tradition. The coupling of the Hegelian dialectic with the skepticism of Spinoza regarding the sources of Scripture, the past (including all forms of tradition) came to be considered outmoded or outdated and tradition distrusted. As a consequence, those who wanted to impose some religious teaching based upon tradition or history became suspect.

At the same time in which the intellectual underpinnings for trusting tradition collapsed in the minds of modern intellectuals under the impetus of modern philosophy, a growing immanentism arose. Immanentism is a philosophy that holds that anything of importance is contained within the individual; the individual becomes the measure or standard by which things are judged. Immanentism essentially holds that exterior reality is not important except to the extent that we can express ourselves in it. What is really important is what is within ourselves. Immanentism came from many sources but three are of particular importance:

The first was Kant, who, through an epistemology that was founded on Cartesian and empirical skepticism regarding the senses, left one locked in his own mind, logically speaking. This meant that everything was within oneself or his own mind, which in turn meant that man’s experiences were essentially immanent – that is, they are within or remain within himself.

The second source of immanentism was the location of the theological experience within the emotions. This was developed by Friedrich Schleiermacher. For Schleiermacher, religion was primarily an expression of piety, and piety was to be found only in the emotions. Religion could not be satisfied with metaphysical treatises and analysis – that is, a rational approach – but rather had to be something emotional. This led to the immanentization of religion since piety or religious experience was viewed as something within the individual. We often see this immanentization today: people expect the liturgy to conform to their emotional states rather than conforming themselves to an objective cult which in turn conforms itself to God.

The third source that led to immanentization and therefore provided an intellectual foundation for acceptance only of the present and a rejection of the past was the work of Maurice Blondel. Blondel held:

[M]odern thought, with a jealous susceptibility, considers the notion of immanence as the very condition of philosophizing; that is to say, if among current ideas there is one which it regards as marking a definitive advance, it is the idea, which is at bottom perfectly true, that nothing can enter into a man’s mind which does not come out of him and correspond in some way to a need for expansion and that there is nothing in the nature of historical or traditional teaching or obligation imposed from without that counts for him.…”5

For Blondel, only those things that come from man himself and which are immanent to him have any meaning. No tradition or history has any bearing upon his intellectual considerations unless it comes somehow from himself.

These three sources of immanentism as they influenced the Church during the waning of an intellectual phase of Modernism in the 1950s and early 1960s6 provided the foundation for a psychological break from tradition as a norm. As Peter Bernardi observes, Blondel was “working at a time when the Church was just beginning to become conscious of a certain break in its tradition.” The work of Blondel and the influx of the other modern philosophical points of view, which were antithetical to the ecclesiastical tradition, had a drastic impact on Vatican II.7 By the time Vatican II arrived, the intellectual foundation was in place for a systematic rejection of all aspects of ecclesiastical tradition.

In summary: Blondel and others, under the influence of modern philosophy, thought that modern man could not be satisfied with past ways of thinking. They provided an intellectual foundation upon which the Church, with a Council as a catalyst, could “update” itself or undergo an “aggiornamento.” With the foundations for the extrinsic tradition having been supplanted, the extrinsic tradition was lost. In other words, since the view of man had changed and since the view of the Deposit of Faith was subjected to a modern analysis, the extrinsic tradition, which rested upon these two, collapsed. We are currently living with the full-blown effects of that collapse. Catholics today have become fixated on the here and now, and in consequence the Church’s traditions have come to be treated not only as irrelevant but also as something to be distrusted and even, at times, demonized.

This has had several effects. The first is that those things that pertain to the extrinsic tradition and do not touch upon the intrinsic tradition are ignored. This manifests itself in the fact that some ecclesial documents today do not have any connection to the positions held by the Magisterium prior to the Second Vatican Council. For example, in the document of Vatican II on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, there is not a single mention of the two previous documents that deal with the ecumenical movement and other religions: Leo XIII’s Satis Cognitum and Pius XI’s Mortalium Animos. The approach to ecumenism and other religions in these documents is fundamentally different from the approach of the Vatican II document or Ut Unum Sint by Pope John Paul II. While the current Magisterium can change a teaching that falls under non-infallible ordinary magisterial teaching, nevertheless, when the Magisterium makes a judgment in these cases, it has an obligation due to the requirements of the moral virtue of prudence to show how the previous teaching was wrong or is now to be understood differently by discussing the two different teachings. However, this is not what has happened. The Magisterium since Vatican II often ignores previous documents which may appear to be in opposition to the current teaching, leaving the faithful to figure out how the two are compatible, such as in the cases of Mortalium Animos and Ut Unum Sint. This leads to confusion and infighting within the Church as well as the appearance of contradicting previous Church teaching without explanation or reasoned justification.

Moreover, the problem is not just with respect to the Magisterium prior to Vatican II but even with the Magisterium since the Council. For instance, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) in 1975 (Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics, as found in the official English translation of the Vatican by The Wanderer Press, 128 E. 10th St., St. Paul, MN 55101) asserts the following regarding masturbation: “The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty.” This indicates that regardless of one’s intention or motive, the act is in itself gravely immoral. Then, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,8 a definition is given that seems to allow for different intentions to modify whether such an act is evil or not: “Masturbationis nomine intelligere oportet voluntarium organorum genitalium excitationem, ad obtinendam ex ea veneream voluptatem” (“by the name masturbation must be understood the voluntary excitement of the genital organs to obtain venereal pleasure”). The last part of the definition therefore includes in the act of masturbation a finality – “to obtain venereal pleasure.” This appears to contradict the prior teaching of the Church as well as the teaching of the CDF. If one does not do it for the sake of pleasure, does that mean that it is not masturbation? For example, if one commits this act for the sake of determining one’s fertility, does this justify it? One can rectify the situation by arguing that when it is done for the sake of pleasure it is an instance of masturbation, but that the actual definition is what the Church has always held. Clearly, however, this example is testimony to how careless the Magisterium has become in its theological expression.

This type of behavior, coupled with the modern philosophical encroachment into the intellectual life of the Church and the bad theology resulting therefrom, has led to a type of “magisterialism.” Magisterialism is a fixation on the teachings that pertain only to the current Magisterium. Since extrinsic tradition has been subverted and since the Vatican tends to promulgate documents exhibiting a lack of concern regarding some previous magisterial acts, many have begun ignoring the previous magisterial acts and now listen only to the current Magisterium.

This problem is exacerbated by our current historical conditions. As the theological community began to unravel before, during and after Vatican II, those who considered themselves orthodox were those who were obedient and intellectually submissive to the Magisterium, since those who dissented were not orthodox. Therefore the standard of orthodoxy was shifted from Scripture, intrinsic tradition (of which the Magisterium is a part) and extrinsic tradition (which includes magisterial acts of the past, such as Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors), to a psychological state in which only the current Magisterium is followed.

Neoconservatives have fallen into this way of thinking. The only standard by which they judge orthodoxy is whether or not one follows the current Magisterium. As a general rule, traditionalists tend to be orthodox in the sense that they are obedient to the current Magisterium, even though they disagree about matters of discipline and have some reservations about certain aspects of current magisterial teachings that seem to contradict the previous Magisterium (e.g., the role of the ecumenical movement). Traditionalists tend to take not just the current Magisterium as their norm but also Scripture, intrinsic tradition, extrinsic tradition and the current Magisterium as the principles of judgment of correct Catholic thinking. This is what distinguishes traditionalists and neoconservatives s

Inevitably, this magisterialism has led to a form of positivism. Since there are no principles of judgment other than the current Magisterium, whatever the current Magisterium says is always what is “orthodox.” In other words, psychologically the neoconservatives have been left in a position in which the extrinsic and intrinsic tradition are no longer included in the norms of judging whether something is orthodox or not. As a result, whatever comes out of the Vatican, regardless of its authoritative weight, is to be held, even if it contradicts what was taught with comparable authority in the past. Since non-infallible ordinary acts of the Magisterium can be erroneous, this leaves one in a precarious situation if one takes as true only what the current Magisterium says. While we are required to give religious assent even to the non-infallible teachings of the Church, what are we to do when a magisterial document contradicts other current or previous teachings and one does not have any more authoritative weight than the other? It is too simplistic merely to say that we are to follow the current teaching. What would happen if in a period of crisis, like our own, a non-infallible ordinary magisterial teaching contradicted what was in fact the truth? If one part of the Magisterium contradicts another, both being at the same level, which is to believed?

Unfortunately, what has happened is that many neoconservatives have acted as if non-infallible ordinary magisterial teachings (such as, for instance, the role of inculturation in the liturgy as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church) are, in fact, infallible when the current Magisterium promulgates them. This is a positivist mentality. Many of the things that neoconservatives do are the result of implicitly adopting principles that they have not fully or explicitly considered. Many of them would deny this characterization because they do not intellectually hold to what, in fact, are their operative principles.

As the positivism and magisterialism grew and the extrinsic tradition no longer remained a norm for judging what should and should not be done, neoconservatives accepted the notion that the Church must adapt to the modern world. Thus rather than helping the modern world to adapt to the teachings of the Church, the reverse process has occurred. This has led to an excessive concern with holding politically correct positions on secular matters. Rather than having a certain distrust of the world – which Christ exhorts us to have – many priests will teach something from the pulpit only as long as it is not going to cause problems. For example, how many priests are willing to preach against anti-scriptural feminism? The fact is that they have adopted an immanentized way of looking at what should be done, often from an emotional point of view. Coupled with political correctness, this has incapacitated ecclesiastical authorities in the face of the world and within the Church herself where the process of immanentization, with its flawed understanding of the nature of man and his condition as laboring under Original Sin, has severely undermined discipline. Even those who try to be orthodox have become accustomed to softer disciplinary norms, which fit fallen nature well, resulting in a lack of detachment from the current way of doing things and a consequent reluctance by neoconservatives to exercise authority – precisely because they lack the vital detachment required to do so.

All of the aforesaid has resulted in neoconservative rejection of the extrinsic tradition as the norm. This is why, even in “good” seminaries, the spiritual patrimony of the saints is virtually never taught. Moreover, this accounts for why the neoconservatives appear confused about the real meaning of tradition. Since it is not a principle of judgment for them, they are unable to discuss it in depth. In fact, they ignore extrinsic tradition almost as much as do the “liberals.” Even when neoconservatives express a desire to recover and follow the extrinsic tradition, they rarely do so when it comes to making concrete decisions.

It now becomes clearer why there is a kind of psychological suspicion between neoconservatives and traditionalists: they have fundamentally different perspectives. The neoconservatives have psychologically or implicitly accepted that extrinsic tradition cannot be trusted, whereas the traditionalists hold to the extrinsic tradition as something good, something that is the product of the wisdom and labor of the saints and the Church throughout history. For this reason, the fundamental difference between neoconservatives and traditionalists is that the neoconservative looks at the past through the eyes of the present while the traditionalist looks at the present through the eyes of the past. Historically, the mens ecclesiae or mind of the Church was expressed through the extrinsic tradition. That is to say that the Church, since it receives both its teaching from the past and the labor of the saints and previous Magisterium by tradition, always looked at the present through the eyes of the past. In this, she looked at the present not as man under the influence of modern philosophy looked at the present, but through the eyes of her Lord Who gave her His teaching when He was on earth (i.e., in the past). Only at the time of Christ was it possible to look authentically at the past through what was then the eyes of the present, since Christ was the fulfillment of the past. But once the work of Christ became part of history and He ascended into heaven, we must always look back to Christ and to our tradition for an authentic understanding of the present.

This fundamental shift in perspective has left traditionalists with the sense that they are fighting for the good of the extrinsic tradition without the help of and often hindered by the current Magisterium. Liturgically, traditionalists judge the Novus Ordo in light of the Mass of Pius V and the neoconservatives judge the Tridentine Mass, as it is called, in light of the Novus Ordo. This comes from Hegelianism, which holds that the past is always understood in light of the present; the thesis and antithesis are understood in light of their synthesis. This outlook leads to a mentality that newer is always better, because the synthesis is better than either the thesis or the antithesis taken alone. Being affected by this, the neoconservatives are often incapable of imagining that the current discipline of the Church may not be as good as the prior discipline. There is a mentality today that holds that “because it is present [Hegelianism], because it comes from us [immanentism], it is necessarily better.”

Furthermore, neoconservatives’ very love for the Church and strong emotional attachment to the Magisterium cause them to find it unimaginable that the Church could ever falter, even with regard to matters of discipline. Like the father who loves his daughter and therefore has a hard time imagining her doing anything wrong, neoconservatives have a hard time conceiving that the Holy Ghost does not guarantee infallibility in matters of discipline or non-infallible ordinary magisterial teaching. Traditionalists, confronted by a Church in crisis, know that something has gone wrong somewhere. As a result, they are, I believe, more sober in assessing whether or not the Church exercises infallibility in a given case. That, allied to their looking at the present through the eyes of the past, helps traditionalists to see that the onus is on the present, not the past, to justify itself.

The dominance of Hegelianism and immanentism also led to a form of collective ecclesiastical amnesia. During the early1960s, there existed a generation that was handed the entire ecclesiastical tradition, for the tradition was still being lived. However, because they labored under the aforesaid errors, that generation chose not to pass on the ecclesiastical tradition to the subsequent generation as something living. Consequently, in one generation, the extrinsic tradition virtually died out. By the late 1960s and early 1970s, seminary and university formation in the Catholic Church excluded those things that pertained to the ecclesiastical tradition. Once the prior generation had chosen this course – not to remember and teach the things of the past – the tradition was never passed on and thus those whom they trained (the current generation) were consigned to suffer collective ignorance about their patrimony and heritage.

A further effect of what we have considered is that no prior teaching has been left untouched. In other words, it appears as if more documentation has been issued in the last forty years than in the previous 1,960. Every past teaching, if the current Magisterium deems it worthy of note to modern man, is touched upon anew and viewed through the lens of present-day immanentism. The impression is given that the teachings of the previous Magisterium cannot stand on their own and must be given some form of “relevance” by being promulgated anew in a current document. Moreover, the current documents often lack the clarity and succinctness of the prior Magisterium, and, with relatively few exceptions, are exceedingly long and tedious to read in their entirety. As a result, the frequency of the documents, taken together with their length, have eroded their authority because, as a general rule, people simply do not have the emotional or psychological discipline to plow through them.

In summary, then, the differences between traditionalists and neoconservatives are rooted in their respective attitudes to extrinsic or ecclesiastical tradition. Even if a neoconservative holds notionally9 that the extrinsic tradition is of value, nevertheless in the daily living of his life and in his deliberations he simply ignores a large portion if not all of it. But there is hope, even outside the circles that hold to tradition. Many of the young, even those in neoconservative seminaries, are no longer weighed down by the intellectual baggage that afflicted their counterparts of the previous generation. Because they have been taught virtually nothing about religion, they lack a perspective that might influence them negatively in favor of one particular view of extrinsic tradition. Many of them are eager to learn the truth and do not have any preconceived ideas about the current state of the Church. As a result, if they are provided with or are able to arrive at the knowledge of their patrimony, many seeking it out on their own, then we can be assured of a brighter future. But this requires knowledge of the problem and the willingness to adopt or connect to the extrinsic tradition by embracing it as something good. It is unlikely that the role of ecclesiastical tradition will be sorted out soon, but we can hope that its restoration is part of God’s providential plan.

1 Christian Pesch, Praelectiones Dogmaticae (Herder & Co., Friburgus, 1924), vol. I, p. 397f.

2 Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, ch. 2 (Denz. 1825/3058).

3 Aristotle, Metaphysics, Bk. I, ch. 1 (980a22).

4 David Laird Dungan, in his text A History of the Synoptic Problem (Doubleday, New York, 1999), recounts how Spinoza developed the historical/critical exegetical method and that from that point on, Scripture studies began to deteriorate outside the Catholic sphere. Later, these same problems would enter into the Church with the uncritical adoption of the same methods.

5 "Letter on Apologetics” as found in the article by Peter J. Bernardi, “Maurice Blondel and the Renewal of the Nature/Grace Relationship,” Communio 26 (Winter 1999), p. 881.

6 The heresy of Modernism has occurred in four phases. The first was the initial phase, which began around 1832, when it was called liberalism, until the beginning of the First Vatican Council in 1869. The second phase was the intelligentsia phase in which it began to infect the Catholic intelligentsia more thoroughly. This occurred from 1870 to 1907, at which time Pope St. Pius X formally condemned Modernism. Then from 1907 until about 1955 to 1960, the underground phase occurred, in which the Modernist teachings were propagated by some of the intelligentsia in the seminaries and Catholic universities, though quietly. Then, in the latter part of the 1950s, a superficial phase began in which the intellectual energy was exhausted and what was left was the practical application of the vacuous teachings of Modernism, which occurred during the period in which the Second Vatican Council was in session and persists until this date. Vatican II was the catalyst or opportunity seized by the past and current superficial intellectuals who teach things contrary to the teachings of the Church.

7 Bernardi observes this but in a positive way in loc. cit.

8 Editio typica, Libreria Editrice Vatican, 1997, para. 2352.

9 In philosophy, a distinction is made between notional and real assent. Notional assent is when the person may make an intellectual judgment that something is true, but it does not really determine his action or thinking. Real assent is when a person makes an intellectual judgment about the truth of some matter and actually lives and thinks according to it.

Fr. Chad Ripperger, F.S.S.P., is a professor at St. Gregory’s diocesan minor seminary and Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary, both in Nebraska.


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To: sinkspur
How did Maniples and Birettas or the psalm Introibo and the Confiteor said at the Foot of the Altar get in the way of truth and right worship?
51 posted on 07/16/2003 9:17:16 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: sinkspur
>>There is no good reason for "minor seminaries." Herding 13 year old boys into environments where they are denied contact with the opposite sex and given the impression that they can discern, at that age, a vocation to the priesthood, is ridiculous.

I disagree. I knew what I wanted to do in life when I was 13 -- and I did it. I think that kids at 13 have a real clue as to what they would like to do in life. While they aren't able to make many mature decisions (financial, etc) they are sometimes capable of having an idea of their future.

Our culture focuses too much time in mediocre eduction. In reality, many kids can start college when they are supposed to start the 9th grade. We just don't shape our youth into adults till much later than 13.
52 posted on 07/16/2003 9:38:48 AM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: sinkspur
Yes. Precisely because they're inessential, one should always question whether they get in the way of true worship or belief or, in the worst, case, begin assuming an intrinsically traditional role in the minds of some people.

I appreciate your candor. Your position is exactly that which traditionalists ascribe to neoCatholics.

Now, if you please, would you care citing a Doctor or Father of the Church who shared this characteristicly neoCatholic disposition?

53 posted on 07/16/2003 10:04:15 AM PDT by traditionalist
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
If you want the REALLY long version, Fr. Rutler wrote a book on the various philosophical schools and their effects. Unfortunately, I gave away the book and can't recall the title, but Ignatius Press is the publisher.

Rutler's book, however, is not meant to distinguish 'traditionalists' from 'neo-cons.' It does give an exhaustive analysis of the philosophes, however..

Thanks for the post. Certain people will be delighted to know that Fr. Ripperger teaches at the Lincoln Diocesan Minor Seminary. Others will be aghast.
54 posted on 07/16/2003 12:57:27 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Maximilian
He also published a couple of items on the liturgy and music which are worthwhile--same venue.
55 posted on 07/16/2003 12:59:09 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; sinkspur; BlackElk
For neos, life began at Vatican II 35 years ago

While it is unfair to make categorical statements, Fr.R's thesis holds water for the general case.

But this is hardly restricted to the religion forum. It is visible at the Supreme Court of the USA, and in the daily press (which displays a ghastly unfamiliarity with history.)

56 posted on 07/16/2003 1:02:28 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
While it is unfair to make categorical statements, Fr.R's thesis holds water for the general case.

It's amazing how Sinkspur and other neoCatholic Freepers so precisely fit the mold outlined in the essay.

57 posted on 07/16/2003 1:06:07 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: Patrick Madrid
Perhaps we should use terms such as "Historically Void" and "Historically Informed?"

I have spent well over 40 years in the arena of church music and can tell you without a doubt that, in general terms, FrR's thesis holds water in that area of the world.

It is now to the point where 'serious' composers simply will not bother to write for the RC Church (with a few exceptions, of course,) because if the music reflects what has been traditionally regarded as art (form, content, beauty) it's simply not sale-able.

BTW, I also have an interesting paper on the topic of art (graphic art) which bemoans a virtually identical split on the 'art world.'

Call it what you like: it's real.
58 posted on 07/16/2003 1:07:10 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: sinkspur
Actually, the purpose is to make them high-school graduates who have a better-than-average understanding of Catholicism.

It's an excellent 'washout' vehicle and (as it was operated in Milwaukee) the washouts were in no way painted with a scarlet letter.'

A LOT depends on the Bishop and the administrators, Sink...
59 posted on 07/16/2003 1:12:09 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; sinkspur
Lemmee see, heah, folks: Sink absolutely SKEWERS the Pope for maintaining the discipline of celibacy for RC priests but not Episcopalian converts and RAILS against JPII for his position on the Iraq War.

THEN Sinky lambastes 'Pope-bashers.'

Ehhhhhhh, what's up, Doc?
60 posted on 07/16/2003 1:15:33 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Loyalist
In other words, extrinsic tradition exists only on suffrance, regardless of its value.

On the contrary, if it's valuable, it will stay. This idea that all of extrinsic tradition has been cast aside after Vatican II is just laughable. Bishops still wear rings, just not with $10,000 stones in them, just as few wear jeweled mitres or carry gold crosiers.

I'm glad that the Church has tried to simplify many externals and become less regal in its bearing.

61 posted on 07/16/2003 1:25:41 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ninenot; Canticle_of_Deborah
Ehhhhhhh, what's up, Doc?

Celibacy is a discipline, and the Pope's opinions on political issues are fair game.

The trads often accuse the Pope of misleading the faithful in matters liturgical and doctrinal.

No comparison.

62 posted on 07/16/2003 1:29:05 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: traditionalist
Now, if you please, would you care citing a Doctor or Father of the Church who shared this characteristicly neoCatholic disposition?

Maybe you ought to define what you mean by extrinsic tradition. I take it to mean trappings, and customs, and the like which have no real bearing on doctrine.

What do you take it to mean?

63 posted on 07/16/2003 1:33:37 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Bishops still wear rings

Perhaps of interest to you, Weakland did not wear a ring and positively avoided the 'kneel and kiss the ring' thing.

64 posted on 07/16/2003 1:39:53 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: 1stFreedom
While they aren't able to make many mature decisions (financial, etc) they are sometimes capable of having an idea of their future.

Whether or not one wants to marry is a mature decision, and can't be made at the age of 13.

65 posted on 07/16/2003 1:41:34 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Think a jeweled putter would be considered to "regal"?

- Pope Piel

Might also need a chin strap for the big hat too for when I bend over to concentrate on a putt.
66 posted on 07/16/2003 1:45:36 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
How did Maniples and Birettas or the psalm Introibo and the Confiteor said at the Foot of the Altar get in the way of truth and right worship?

The Confiteor (as you know) is one of the optional penitential rites in the Novus Ordo. What is the purpose of the Introit or the Last Gospel?

They're just not essential. One could say the same about the Sign of Peace, which could be eliminated tomorrow AFAIC.

67 posted on 07/16/2003 1:49:08 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ninenot
If you want the REALLY long version, Fr. Rutler wrote a book on the various philosophical schools and their effects.

Actually it was Fr. Rutler speaking on EWTN about 10 years ago, who first began the process of my conversion to tradition. He was giving a talk on modern philosophies, and he was comparing the Catholic tradition of realist philosophy with the false and dangerous modern philosophy of phenomenology. I asked myself, "Wait a second, isn't the pope a phenomenologist?" That small pebble started the landslide until finally I realized that everything I had been accepting as part of the Catholic Church was "false and dangerous." I even had participated in Renew -- at a parish that was famous for being ultra-conservative. The pastor of this same ultra-conservative parish told my wife it was okay to use contraception. Then I realized that phenomenology was the underlying philosophy for the Church's new approach to morality as well. The whole thing was built on a lie; every bit of the "post-conciliar Church" was based upon a false and dangerous philosophy.

68 posted on 07/16/2003 1:52:32 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: ninenot
Perhaps of interest to you, Weakland did not wear a ring and positively avoided the 'kneel and kiss the ring' thing.

Bishops should wear rings; most of them opt for the plain gold band that JP II wears.

I don't wear a wedding ring. I've got some strange (and rare) allergic reaction to rings or watches made with precious metal. I've never been able to wear jewelry, and have to wear a cheap watch with a leather band.

No medals around the neck, either. The brown scapular is all I can wear, which I've worn since I was in grade school.

Mary made that promise, you know, to those who wear her scapular, and I'm holding her to it.

69 posted on 07/16/2003 1:57:57 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
I always thought gold was hypoallergenic.
70 posted on 07/16/2003 2:22:22 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Not to me, apparently.

My wife said if she couldn't wear jewelry she'd kill herself.

71 posted on 07/16/2003 2:23:57 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
They're like magpies - always drawn to bright, shiny things.

;)

72 posted on 07/16/2003 2:26:15 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine; sinkspur
Allergies to metal are not all that rare, but it is a problem for some people. There are ways to coat the metal, but it has to be done periodically.

Not a problem that I have, but I'm a silver wearing lady anyway.
73 posted on 07/16/2003 2:35:16 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: sinkspur
The Introit sets the theme of the Mass. As you know, the Introit is "the entrance antiphon" and only if the Introit is NOT sung is there an "entrance hymn."

Of course, it was present in Rome in the early liturgies--THAT is provable, not speculative. But because a trained schola is necessary to sing it, and it remained in Latin, it was quietly dropped by neo-conservatives and Libbies alike.
74 posted on 07/16/2003 4:55:43 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Maximilian
Phenomenology, per se is the wrong philosophy. JPII, however, married phenomenology to Thomism. It wasn't easy, and his work is still largely unexplained by people like Fr. Ripperger (who, along with Rutler, could break it down into edible bits...) but it will happen.
75 posted on 07/16/2003 4:58:31 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
Actually, Fr. Ripperger explains JPII's method in this article. It is called the Hegelian dialectic. In this case, Thomism, is the existing element or thesis. It is opposed by Phenomenology, the antithesis. The synthesis of the two represents a new thesis which is an advance over the old (Thomism).

The whole problem with the pope's method is that it embraces the modern philosophy of Hegel.

Perhaps his work, which has been around for over twenty years, is still largely unexplained because it is utterly unexplainable.

76 posted on 07/16/2003 9:43:00 PM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: Bellarmine
Reading JPII's work is a chore, to say the least.

But even the MOST conservative theologian I know has mentioned, frequently, that the Church has often, and successfully, "baptized" non-Catholic concepts for Her own, and better, use.

Further, as you know, the Catholic mind seeks synthesis (while maintaining doctrinal impeccability.) Has do do with that prayer for unity of Christ, you know...

Thus, a reconciliation of Hegel to Aquinas is not, in itself, some sort of launch into Protestantism; it is no different than Aquinas' reconciliation of Aristotle to Catholicism. Please note that we ARE speaking of "toward Catholicism" or "into Catholicism." The phrase is meaningful...

Further, the concept that "new" is de-facto "bad" is utterly ridiculous--as is its opposite (played hard by the poofter-wonks) that "old" is "bad." I am certain that you do not wish to become a knee-jerk reactionary.

As you can determine from hundreds of prior posts, I am hardly a neo-con admirer. On the other hand, the Pope is a fairly smart guy, and he is informed by REALLY good sources from above.

Last, not least: if his attempted reconciliation does not work, the Faith has not been compromised. The Nicene Creed was not revoked, nor the efficacy of the Mass and the sacraments.
77 posted on 07/17/2003 5:27:51 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
Thus, a reconciliation of Hegel to Aquinas is not, in itself, some sort of launch into Protestantism

He is attempting a synthesis of Phenomenology to Thomism according to the modern philosophy of Hegel.

78 posted on 07/17/2003 5:34:42 AM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: ninenot
Reading JPII's work is a chore, to say the least.

Hardly a "pastoral" approach is it -- for the Pope to write documents that no one can read? Isn't it ironic that in the days before the Church became "pastoral," the popes wrote in plain English (translated from the Latin of course) that anyone could read and understand.

even the MOST conservative theologian I know has mentioned, frequently, that the Church has often, and successfully, "baptized" non-Catholic concepts for Her own, and better, use.

This is easily and frequently misunderstood. There are natural goods which can be put to a supernatural purpose. But something which is inherently bad can never be "baptized." The Church has never taken the tradition of temple prostitutes and "baptized" it. Nor can it take a false and pernicious philosophy like Hegel's and baptize it. Aristotle outlined the basic principles of logic and reason which are natural goods and in no way contradictory to divine revelation.

Thus, a reconciliation of Hegel to Aquinas is not, in itself, some sort of launch into Protestantism

No, it's much worse than that. It's a launch into the post-modern world materialism, skepticism, and ultimately atheism.

the Pope is a fairly smart guy, and he is informed by REALLY good sources from above

It is not Catholicism to believe that the pope receives direct divine inspiration. No one ever said the pope was Delphic oracle. His inspiration should come from Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium, just like all other Catholics. The most dangerous possible aberration most likely to destroy the Catholic faith in the shortest possible time is to believe that the pope is some sort of medium for transmitting messages from heaven.

if his attempted reconciliation does not work, the Faith has not been compromised.

I see the faith compromised all around me. The new method is not to come right out and to make heretical declarations like Luther or Calvin. The more sophisticated method is to effect a reconciliation between truth and error, without ever directly denying the truth.

79 posted on 07/17/2003 7:07:47 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Bellarmine
So what?

If he can do so and in the course of the work preserve orthodoxy, so what?
80 posted on 07/17/2003 7:08:33 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
I wish I could take your "so what" attitude ninenot.
81 posted on 07/17/2003 7:19:29 AM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: Maximilian
Ah.

It was worth reading the previous 78 posts to get to your fine distillation.

82 posted on 07/19/2003 9:05:13 AM PDT by iconoclast
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To: sinkspur
I take it to mean trappings, and customs, and the like which have no real bearing on doctrine.

That, as well as disciplines, liturgical practices, language style, theological methods, etc. In other words, any tradition, sanctioned by Rome, that is not per se irreformable.

83 posted on 07/21/2003 11:53:33 AM PDT by traditionalist
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To: traditionalist
In other words, any tradition, sanctioned by Rome, that is not per se irreformable.

Anything that is not irreformable, is reformable.

84 posted on 07/21/2003 11:55:09 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ninenot
When I was in the choir at the Church of Notre Dame near Columbia University in New York, the men in the Choir used to chant the Introit in Latin at Novus Ordo masses. Unfortunately, this is an extremely rare practice.
85 posted on 07/21/2003 11:56:58 AM PDT by traditionalist
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To: sinkspur
They're just not essential.

The only thing essential in the Mass is the consecration and communion. Still, the Church Fathers and doctors all venerated inessential things such as the Roman Canon, offertory, Gregorian Chant, and the like. Up until Vatican 2, the Church always treated old, universally-practed and papally sanctioned inessentials with the utmost reverence, reforming them only rarely and incrimentally. Never before the 1960's was there such a radical and rapid purge of such inessentials. The post-Vatican 2 reforms are totally unprecidented.

86 posted on 07/21/2003 12:04:06 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: sinkspur
Anything that is not irreformable, is reformable.

Of course. We agree on this. The point is that before Vatican 2, the Church treated even reformable traditions, provided they were old and sanctioned, with reverence and changed them only rarely and incrimentally. The magnitude and scope of the changes to such traditions during and since Vatican 2 are unprecidented.

87 posted on 07/21/2003 12:06:30 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: traditionalist
Never before the 1960's was there such a radical and rapid purge of such inessentials. The post-Vatican 2 reforms are totally unprecidented.

True. The Church should have allowed the Tridentine Mass to continue to be offered, alongside the Novus Ordo. That was a big mistake.

But non-essentials are non-essentials. Jesus tried to rid the Judaism of his day of silly laws and observances and strictures and requirements. "Strain at gnats and swallow camels."

But, those who wished to hang on to the non-essentials after Vatican II should have been allowed to do so.

88 posted on 07/21/2003 12:12:13 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ninenot
Further, the concept that "new" is de-facto "bad" is utterly ridiculous--as is its opposite (played hard by the poofter-wonks) that "old" is "bad." I am certain that you do not wish to become a knee-jerk reactionary.

The traditional Catholic does not automatically assume that "the new" is bad, but rather treats the "new" with more suspicion than "the old." "The new", being new, has not stood the test of time. "The new" is typically the product of the wisdom of men in one age; "The old" is the product of the wisdom of men from many ages. That's why up until Vatican 2, the Church never made rapid or radical changes to long-established traditions, be they disciplinary, liturgical, theological, or even practical. Where there is a doubt, "the old" gets the benefit.

89 posted on 07/21/2003 12:14:43 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: sinkspur
True. The Church should have allowed the Tridentine Mass to continue to be offered, alongside the Novus Ordo. That was a big mistake.

No, the mistake was fabricating a liturgy that so abruptly breaks with the past and lends itself so easily to abuse. Never in the history of the Church was there such a radical reform of the liturgy in such a short peroid of time, and the results of the post-Vatican 2 reform illustrate so perfectly the wisdom of the pre-Vatican 2 Popes in resisting such reform.

But non-essentials are non-essentials.

For the last time, yes. This is not about whether it is possible to change non-essentials. It is about whether it is wise to change long-established non-essentials quickly and radically. I, along with nearly every pre-Vatican 2 Pope, say it is not. The last 30 years of the Church prove it is not.

Jesus tried to rid the Judaism of his day of silly laws and observances and strictures and requirements. "Strain at gnats and swallow camels."

Paul VI was not Jesus.

90 posted on 07/21/2003 12:24:47 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: traditionalist
The last 30 years of the Church prove it is not.

Well, I disagree, and I think the number of Catholics who would agree with me far outnumbers those who would agree with you.

And that doesn't count John Paul II, who agrees with me as well.

See, many traditionalists would like to do what was done in the 60s; that is, reimpose the Tridentine Rite and suppress the Novus Ordo.

That is not going to happen, traditionalist, nor should it.

But a much more generous use of the Tridentine Rite should be given.

91 posted on 07/21/2003 12:37:08 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Well, I disagree, and I think the number of Catholics who would agree with me far outnumbers those who would agree with you.

The Church is not a democracy. BTW, where's the "New Springtime" we've been promised for so long?

And that doesn't count John Paul II, who agrees with me as well.

He's irrationally attached to the Vatican 2 revolution because he was a part of it.

Anyway, I've got St. Pius X, Blessed Pius IX, Leo XIII, and countless other Pontiffs agreeing with me that radical change of disciplines, liturgical practices, etc is a bad idea.

See, many traditionalists would like to do what was done in the 60s; that is, reimpose the Tridentine Rite and suppress the Novus Ordo.

I don't personally know any traditionalists who actually believe this. I certainly don't. Radical change is usually a bad idea, even if it means undoing previous radical change.

That is not going to happen, traditionalist, nor should it.

But a much more generous use of the Tridentine Rite should be given.

At least we have some common ground.

92 posted on 07/21/2003 12:58:19 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: traditionalist
We did that at a parish in Elm Grove, and also chanted the Offertorium and Communio.

After a change of pastors, the new pastor (a very, ah, close associate of Rembert Weakland) found a way to misquote the docs of VatII and put a stop to it.

Ah, well.
93 posted on 07/21/2003 2:07:28 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; broadsword; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; american colleen; ...
Pinging for 6/28/2004.

I think everyone should read this thread again. I know it's not going to satisfy everyone, but it will reveal the thinking of many in the respective camps. I also recommend the following links:
Conservative and Traditional Catholicism Compared
A Brief Defense of Traditionalism

(N.B. I don't necessarily endorse all of the viewpoints expressed in these articles, but I think it's a good starting point in getting everyone to settle down.)

94 posted on 06/28/2004 2:50:54 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: sinkspur
sedia gestatoria

I wonder if you know, sinkspur, that there used to be a gesture of profound affection and admiration, by which eminent men, upon their arrival at a city desirous of paying its respects, would find the young men of the city unhitching the horses of his carriage so that they could draw it themselves. It was a sign, sinkspur -- something rooted in the created world and the public acts of men -- a way to show loyalty and render service. It's a cultural memory that revives every time a victorious team hoists its coach or MVP to their shoulders and bears him aloft in honor of his authorship of their triumph -- an honor you'd never forget or disparage if you'd ever received it.

I grieve that you disparage the survival of this honorable custom in the sedia gestatoria, by which Catholic men are permitted to render physical homage to the Petrine office. I hope this is only an American sickness of the spirit that causes you to recoil from the natural impulse to render honor, and not a hatred of the office itself that you recoil from seeing it honored.

95 posted on 06/28/2004 10:15:59 PM PDT by Romulus ("For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God.")
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To: Romulus
I grieve that you disparage the survival of this honorable custom in the sedia gestatoria, by which Catholic men are permitted to render physical homage to the Petrine office. I hope this is only an American sickness of the spirit that causes you to recoil from the natural impulse to render honor, and not a hatred of the office itself that you recoil from seeing it honored.

Well, lift yourself up, man!

The sedia was put to pasture by Paul VI, and has not been revived under JPII.

The "sickness of spirit" is in lifting up men who don't want it, men who realize, finally, that they wear the shoes of Him who had nowhere to lay His Head.

96 posted on 06/28/2004 10:27:58 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur
Well, lift yourself up, man!

Very Pelagian of you, sinky.

97 posted on 06/28/2004 10:43:09 PM PDT by Romulus ("For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God.")
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