New rules for taking communion issued

Chicago Sun-Times ^ | July 17, 2003 | CATHLEEN FALSANI

[Thorondir]

[You] attribute such power to me that I could single-handedly destroy the Catholic Church in America?

"The sort of fellow", SORT of fellow. Not even anything close to "single-handedly". Be serious, my man, serious.

BTW, when it comes to gays, you hate the sin AND the sinner, I'm guessing.

You, again, have guesses wrong. But 21 years of law enforcement have taught me not to hate the sin and coddle the sinner, or affirm the sinner, or praise the sinner, or admire the sinner, or join the sinner, or have a special mass for the sinner. Confession and repentence are good enough for the sinner.

Is that clear enough? you really ought to give up guessing what is in everybody else's mind. You're clearly not good at it.

Dominus vobiscum.

[sinkspur]

you really ought to give up guessing what is in everybody else's mind. You're clearly not good at it.

And also with you.

[Salvation]

You can bow oor genuflect.

[Thorondir]

Stormfront and Liberty Lobby

Who?

...what with all the gay-bashing, which this place is full of.

Oh, how sad! I didn't realize the special ones were maltreated so beastially on this damned hetero forum. Thath jutht tewibwe!

[Thorondir]

Now THAT was funny, sir.

[Thorondir]

...but that doesn't mean I want to take long warm showers with you, so don't get any ideas!

[connectthedots]

the bread and wine Roman Catholics believe becomes the actual body and blood of Christ during the mass.

As a Christian, this belief is certainly not based on the facts or the Bible. At what point does it actually become the blood and body of Christ?

[As you well know...]

Has the Pope ever offered the Mass accrd to the 1962 Roman Missal? (I mean since V2)I know Card Ratzinger has many times.

It is my understanding he hasn't. If true, it strikes me as odd. I think it would send a wonderful sign were he to offer Mass with the FSSP or the SSPX.

[As you well know...]

What about the SSPX? Would there be an FSSP had there not been the SSPX?

[As you well know...]

"They'll take priestless parishes. As I would.

The Novus Ordo is the normative Mass, and I wouldn't hire a priest who refused to say it."


Please tell me you're joking...

[As you well know...]

"Interesting statement. John 6 is said to teach transubstantiation and yet the Didache is not well defined on the Eucharist."

The Didache is not a Treatise on the Sacraments. I have the William A. Jurgens "The Faith of the Early Fathers." In regards the question of the Eucharist, he footnotes an explanation for ""On the Lord's Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks after confessing your transgreessions so that your sacrifice may be pure."

Jurgens notes the Greek word used for "give thanks" could also be translated "celebrate the Eucharist." My Douai Rheims notes throughtout the New Testament that "breaking bread" was shorthand for celebrate the Eucharist.

Jurgens' collection is rife with references to the real presence from the get go and my "A Catholic Commentary of Holy Scripture" by Dom Orchard (great source for Catholics. Check online for old/used books. Mine is a 1952 edition I located in Australia) footnotes many N.T. references.

There is no doubt the NT Christians believed in the Real Presence. However, they were not sitting around discussing whether or not to adopt "transubstantiation" as the word that best describes what occurs whne they gathered to break bread.

What is interesting about the Didache - written about 140 A.D. is that it illustrates such supposeddly "inventions" as Mass, Eucharist, Confession, Baptism, Fasting (2 days a week, btw)Apostles, Bishops, Deacons...

And, for those of us living through these evil days, the Didache also notes "You shall not seduce boys."

[drstevej]

I appreciate your response.

***Jurgens notes the Greek word used for "give thanks" could also be translated "celebrate the Eucharist." My Douai Rheims notes throughtout the New Testament that "breaking bread" was shorthand for celebrate the Eucharist***

Eucharisto does mean to give thanks and is a term associated with observing the ordinance instituted by Christ at the Last Supper.

My point was the passage from the Didache focuses on the taking of the cup and the bread wihout reference to the real presence. I don't expect them to use the term "tanssubstantiation" but the absence of language indicating transubstantiation is at least curious.

Said another way, as a Protestant Pastor I could use these very words in celebration of the Lord's Supper whereas I think my RC friends would want language more explicitly affirming the real presence.

[old and tired]

This is a long thread and I haven't read it all. I don't think this whole section from the Didache was quoted:

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations."

Even though "do not give That which is sacred to the dogs" is not quoted in the Mass, I think (and many have taught)that it indicates the Real Presence. I certainly don't see anything here which denies the Real Presence.

[old and tired]

All that follows is from the following page http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr's crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."

-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

[old and tired]

I'm sorry I won't be around to see your response for the next few days. We're headed down the shore and we don't have high speed access there.

[rogator]

The quote below is taken from the Archbishop's column in the Sentinel (local Oregon Catholic newspaper) 19 AUG 02

"my ex-officio assignment as President and Publisher–in-Chief of Oregon Catholic Press"

I just wonder what kind of salary (if any) he draws from these folks?

[k omalley]

Mother Teresa..."didn't scream like a banshee because she was 'forced' to attend the Novus Ordo."

And I bet that at the Novus Ordo Masses she attended there was never cheering, as at a football game, protestant ministers concelebrating, and a handwashing ceremony at her Holy Thursday N.O. I doubt that the worshippers showed up in shorts and halter tops despite the terrible heat they have in India.

Please don't get me wrong, I love my N.O. parish because it is done correctly but at far too many parishes this isn't the case. I know, I've been there.

[Blzbba]

Thanks for the info, guys. I had no idea. As a young Catholic, I clearly recall receiving the "honey-flavored", thick bread-like communion on several occasions...with no idea of its invalidity.

Of course, this was always from the same left-leaning-type priest who also instituted the 6:00pm Sunday masses as the one with the folk-style guitar music, etc. My parents never cared for him, as they're pre-Vatican II type Catholics...

[drstevej]

The case is made, for me, entirely on the weight of the biblical evidence. These letters of Ignatius were never included in the canon nor did he claim that they should be.

The curiosity I noted was that the Didache did not support the language of the present doctrine of Rome. To that I add that the language of the Didache is unlike that of Ignatius.

You will want to cite other fathers, ones with whom I will likely be familiar, yet my response will likely be the same. Holy Scripture not Holy Tradition.

Enjoy your time at the shore, my friend.

Question: If someone unfamiliar with the issues, etc. were to read the instructions concerning the Eucharist/Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 11) and then attend your church's mass and the Lord's Supper at my church (we are an evangelical Protestant church holding a memorial view of the Lord's Supper), which one would he see as most like the New Testament instructions?

[drstevej]

*** I certainly don't see anything here which denies the Real Presence.***

nor affirms it, and that is my point.