Review of Liturgical Reform Proposed by Cardinal Sodano

Zenit News Agency ^ | August 29, 2003 | Zenit

[As you well know...]

Although I am temprementally predisposed to pessimism (well, that is what others tell me, I think I'm a realist), I think you may be right. I am starting to hold out some hope.

T'Heck is this place doing to me?

[sinkspur]

Then how do you explain the very, very short lines at the confessionals on Saturday in the typical Novus Ordo parish? Is it a sudden turn away from sin that came as a result of Vatican II or is it a certain lack of belief in the Real Presence therefore negating the need to return sanctifying grace to our souls?

Short confessional lines have no correlation to belief in the Real Presence.

The Gallup Poll was a phone poll, and the respondents were presented with four different definitions of the Real Presence. Two of the four could have been correct, and all were fuzzy.

Traditionalists love to use this poll, but its methodology is questionable.

[As you well know...]

I sure as heck hope not. I went to Confession today. Preparing for Confession, Confessing, and then doing Penance before the Crucifix my sins sent Jesus to is about the only time I am really in touch with myself and the only time I really see myself as I really am - a sinner in desperate need of God's Grace and Mercy.

[As you well know...]

Glory Be...we have agreement, Houston.

[As you well know...]

Kudos, sinkspur. Very kind and generous. God Bless you

[Loyalist]

A sensible pastoral suggestion, which merits prayerful consideration and should not merely be dismissed out of hand.

Amen!

[sinkspur]

I will never back off my preference for the Novus Ordo. But, that preference should not be an impediment to your preference.

The Vatican II euphoria screwed over the Catholics committed to the Tridentine Rite. Continually picking at that wound has gotten us to where we are today.

Novus Ordo bishops are not going to bend, and, even if they did, there would be continual conflict.

A separate rite is the answer, don't you think?

[As you well know...]

Absolutely. And notice the response your generosity and kindness is eliciting? A kind word turns away malice.

You might want to print out the exchanges on this thread twixt you and the old schoolers, trads, conservatives, whatever-they/we-are-called and show them to the Bishops.

Liturgical Diversity within Christian Unity with all obedient to legitimate authority.

I think an approach like that would go a long ways towards ending the Liturgical Wars and enmity twixt those on the starboard side and those on the port side of the Barque of Peter.

[sydney smith]

I gotta admit it, peace is better than war. I could get used to this civility. I think I'll sign off now before I blow it.

[As you well know...]

Ha Ha Ha

[sinkspur]

You have every right to suspect my motives in this suggestion for a separate Tridentine Rite. After all, I've railed against "trads" for months.

Well, I've taken some time away from the religion forum and thought about this conflict.

I just don't see Novus Ordo bishops acquiescing to a wholesale re-evaluation of the place of the Tridentine Rite in the American Church.

I'm not a big fan of Bishop Bruskewitz' style, but he seems to have achieved a balance, and is ordaining men to the Novus Ordo at a much higher rate than other dioceses. I'd be stupid to argue against success, wouldn't I?

Our friend ninenot tells us that Archbishop Dolan will have a class of 25 new men in the seminary this year. Now, Dolan is an ardent Novus Ordo bishop, but, as you've noticed, has allowed his priests to write an open letter about optional celibacy. I'd bet he would entertain a major effort from the advocates of the Tridentine Mass as well.

I've decided that Dolan is the model bishop: let a thousand flowers bloom. Some will die, some will thrive.

We've got a vibrant Church here, guys. We don't agree on the model, but we do agree that our eyes need to be fixed on Him who is with us, In His Body.

Let mutual respect prevail, and we'll All Be One.

[sinkspur]

At the same time, I remain troubled by THE REMNANT, and its offshoots, who continually rail at John Paul II, and every emanation from the Vatican.

There's no dialogue with Michael Matt, so he needs to lash out to get somebody's attention.

I'm not conversant enought with his position to rebut it, but I wonder if a Tridentine Rite would satisfy his objections?

The spiritual needs of Catholics are paramount here, and a separate Rite would free those who favor it from the strictures of local bishops who want to shoehorn everybody into a particular process.

Now, Thorondir, I know you're going to question my motives here, and that's fine.

If we were sitting across from each other, my goal would be to admit that what you want is due you, from the Church, while eliciting from you an admission that this was a good faith effort.

There are no "sides" here. This is The Body of Christ, that we belong to.

[ninenot]

None of the above.

Catholics don't SIN anymore, don't you know?

JPII was talking about this 10 years ago--a "lack of the sense of sin"

The Bishops paid as much attention to that allocution as they do to most everything else JPII says.

[ninenot]

I'm not as easily convinced.

While a patriarchate is the easy solution, that's not necessarily the best solution. Balkanizing the Roman Catholic church will make the Church like, ah, the Balkan states.

And it will take a fair amount of capital to effect this, albeit such will be 'in-house' trading with no immediate net effects.

I'd rather work towards some sort of unification. Wouldn't bother me to see those who are NOT going with Rome to depart--make it simple and sweet. And that would be from both sides of the table.

[sinkspur]

Liturgical Diversity within Christian Unity with all obedient to legitimate authority.

I'd bumper-sticker this in a heartbeat.

[ninenot]

I think you took time off the Forum and drank heavily. You're actually in a stupor, right?

[sinkspur]

I'd rather work towards some sort of unification. Wouldn't bother me to see those who are NOT going with Rome to depart--make it simple and sweet. And that would be from both sides of the table.

You know that is not John Paul II's style. He will go after the one sheep to the point of exhaustion.

I'd guess that there will not be the luxury of "anathemas" from either side, for a very long time from the successors of JP II.

The Hound of Heaven will pursue every soul.

We MUST facilitate His delicate touch.

[sinkspur]

I think you took time off the Forum and drank heavily. You're actually in a stupor, right?

Actually, I trained a class of 14 lay people to assume the Office of Lector over the last three days.

I'm always humbled by the dedication of men and women to the Church. They allowed themselves to be critiqued, objectively, and stayed with our program. And I KNOW that Christ has lifted them up to exercise this ministry.

I do drink heavily, on rare occasions. But, this is not one of them.

[ninenot]

Well, Hound aside, and JPII's style aside, there's still a very wide gulf between, say, Teddy Kennedy and Ultima Ratio.

And, interestingly, the last three Prefects of CDW have been noticeably more two-fisted in their approach to lit. problems (I am counting Arinze among the three.)

Y'all ought not be surprised that there are those willing to serve the Church--each in his/her own way on these threads is doing so, (perhaps a few are not) in their own ways. But good intentions also pave the highway to Hell.