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The FReeper Foxhole Remembers The BATTLE OF THE LITTLE BIG HORN - Dec. 13th, 2002
http://www.cbhma.org/history.shtml ^ | Joe Sills, Jr.

Posted on 12/13/2002 5:34:26 AM PST by SAMWolf

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BATTLE OF THE LITTLE BIG HORN

Summary of the Battle

The Little Big Horn battle was easily the worst defeat ever sustained by the U.S. Army in Plains Indian warfare with the 7th Cavalry suffering 268 killed or dying of wounds, and 60 wounded. The news shocked the nation and gave rise to an endless debate about the facts, strategy and tactics of the battle which continues to the present day.


Col. Custer


May 17th, 1876

On May 17, 1876, the 7th United States Cavalry Regiment under Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer left Fort Abraham Lincoln, Dakota Territory, as part of a column commanded by Brigadier General Alfred H. Terry. This column, with two others already in the field led by Brigadier General George Crook and Colonel John Gibbon, was to participate in the effort to force all Sioux and Northern Cheyenne in the unceded territory back to their reservations.

When the 7th Cavalry left on the expedition, it did so divided into two wings, the right under Major Marcus A. Reno and the left under Captain Frederick W. Benteen. Within the right wing were the battalions of Captain Myles W. Keogh (Companies B, C and I) and Captain George W. Yates (Companies E, F and L). The left wing was comprised of battalions under Captain Thomas B. Weir (Companies A, D and H) and Captain Thomas H. French (Companies G, K and M). The regiment consisted of approximately 750 officers and enlisted men, although the exact number is open to question, and was accompanied by a contingent of about forty Arikara Indian scouts. Also in the column were three companies of infantry and a Gatling gun platoon, all supported by wagons carrying supplies.

June 7th

On June 7, Terry's column reached the confluence of the Powder and Yellowstone Rivers from which point he left to confer with Gibbon on June 9, and then returned. The right wing of the 7th Cavalry, along with one Gatling gun, was then ordered on a scout intended to take the unit up the Powder River, then over to the Tongue River, and back to the Yellowstone. Reno exceeded, or disobeyed, those orders by proceeding further west to Rosebud Creek where he found an Indian trail. He followed the trail upstream for perhaps 45 miles before returning to the Yellowstone.


Maj. Reno


June 21st

On June 21, the remainder of the 7th Cavalry joined Reno below the mouth of the Rosebud and the whole regiment moved to the junction of that stream and the Yellowstone. On the same day, Terry, Gibbon, Custer and Major James Brisbin held a conference on board the steamer Far West. The decision reached was that Gibbon's infantry and Brisbin's 2nd Cavalry would proceed up the Yellowstone, cross and go south up the Big Horn. Custer and the 7th Cavalry were to move south along the Rosebud, then cross to the Little Big Horn, and return along that stream.

The obvious hope was that the Indians would be found in the area of the Little Big Horn and be trapped between the two columns. During the course of the meeting, Custer declined the offer of the Gatling gun battery on the grounds that it could hinder his progress. He also refused the four companies of the 2nd Cavalry under Brisbin, saying that the 7th Cavalry could handle anything it met. To assist Custer, six Crow scouts from Gibbon's command were assigned along with the famous civilian guide and scout Mitch Bouyer. George Herendeen was attached to Custer for the purpose of scouting the upper reaches of Tulloch's Fork and carrying the results of that scout to Terry. The conference resulted in the now famous "Orders" dated June 22, to Custer from Terry. The verbal and written battles waged over the meaning, force and effect of these orders began soon after the actual battle ended, and persist even today.

June 22nd

At noon on June 22, the 7th Cavalry proceeded up the Rosebud about 12 miles. While at the Yellowstone, Custer had abolished the wing/battalion assignments for reasons unknown, informing Reno that command assignments would be made on the march. That evening, Custer told his assembled officers that he expected they might face a warrior force of up to 1500, and if he got on their trail he would pursue, even if beyond the fifteen days for which they were rationed.

The regimental supplies were carried by a make-shift mule train of twelve mules per company with some additional animals to transport headquarters and miscellaneous equipment. Twelve mules each carried two 1000-round ammunition boxes, or 2000 rounds per company. Each soldier was armed with the single-shot, .45 caliber, Model 1873 Springfield carbine, and was ordered to carry 100 rounds of 45-55 carbine ammunition of which fifty rounds was to be on his person. The troopers also carried the Model 1873 Colt .45 caliber, single-action revolver with twenty four rounds of ammunition.

Despite artwork to the contrary, no sabres were carried after the expedition left the Powder River camp. It further appears from recent archeological surveys that some of the soldiers may have carried weapons other than those mentioned, and that some men and officers had "personal" weapons with them.


Capt. Benteen


June 24th

Saturday, June 24, found the regiment on the march by 5 a.m. Indian campsites were passed and examined and, after a march of some 28 miles, the command went into camp. That evening Custer called First Lieutenant Charles A. Varnum to him and stated that the Crow scouts believed the Sioux were in the Little Big Horn valley. Custer wanted someone to accompany the Crows scouts to a spot, later to become famous as the "Crow's Nest," from which the scouts said they could see the Sioux and Northern Cheyenne camp fires when started in the early morning. Custer wanted a messenger to be sent back with information as soon as possible. Varnum was to leave about 9 p.m. and Custer would follow with the regiment at 11 p.m. and thought he could be at the base of the divide between the Rosebud and Little Big Horn before morning. Varnum along with Charlie Reynolds, a white scout, some Crow and Arikara scouts left as ordered.

Custer turned the regiment westward toward the divide and marched about four hours until the weary unit halted. At this point, a message was received from Varnum stating that the scouts had seen camp fire smoke and a pony herd in the valley, and the regiment again moved out about 8 a.m. Later that morning Custer arrived at the Crow's Nest, looked through field glasses at the indicated site but, like Varnum earlier, was unable to see what the Crow scouts had seen. Although Benteen later claimed Custer did not believe the scouts' report, Custer's subsequent actions were those of a commander taking his command toward a scene of action.

Upon his return to the regiment, Custer was told that a detail of troopers, led by Sergeant William A. Curtis of F Company, had come upon an Indian trying to open a lost box or bundle of clothing. There were other reports from Herendeen and Bouyer of sightings of Indians who, it was assumed, had also discovered the regiment. Since it was the Indians' custom to scatter in the presence of troops, Custer decided to strike immediately, rather than lay concealed during June 25 and attack on the morning of the 26th.

June 25th



At about noon on June 25, at the Rosebud-Little Big Horn divide, Custer halted the regiment and proceeded to assign commands. Reno received Companies A, G and M, and Benteen, Companies D, H and K. It is probable that Captain Keogh was given Companies I, L and C, and Captain Yates, Companies E and F. Captain Thomas McDougall's Company B was assigned as packtrain guard. Furthermore, a noncommissioned officer and six privates were detailed from each company to help with company pack mules.

Benteen was ordered to scout toward a line of hills to the left front. After his departure, two messengers were sent directing him to go beyond the line of hills in view. This scout is sometimes characterized as Custer's way of appearing to comply with Terry's directive that he feel "... constantly to your left ..," but more likely represents Custer's reaction to his experience at the Washita, when he found that Indian villages camped separately along the same stream.

The balance of the regiment proceeded down Reno (or Sundance, or Ash) Creek toward the Little Big Horn, Reno's command on the left bank and Custer's two battalions on the right, with the pack train bringing up the rear. Around 2 p.m. Reno's battalion crossed over the creek to join Custer's command on the right bank. Shortly after, the combined columns arrived in the vicinity of the Lone Tepee, the location of which is still a matter of dispute.

Near this point, Fred Girard, civilian interpreter for the Arikara scouts, spotted a group of Indians fleeing toward the river, and heavy dust clouds were seen in the valley. Riding to the top of a small knoll, Girard called out to Custer, "Here are your Indians, running like devils."

Custer sent his adjutant, First Lieutenant William W. Cooke, to Reno with the order, "Custer says to move at as rapid a gait as you think prudent and to charge afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit." This was the last and only order Reno ever received and, in fact, was the last communication from Custer's command.

In obedience to the order, Reno proceeded to the Little Big Horn River at a fast trot, crossed and halted on the far side of some timber to gather the companies which had lost formation in the crossing. Meanwhile, Girard still on the right bank had heard the Crow and Arikara call out that the Sioux, in large numbers, were coming up to meet Reno, an observation also made by the scout Herendeen. Thinking that Custer should know of this development, he turned back and quickly came upon Cooke who was riding toward the river. After Girard relayed his information, Cooke stated he would report to Custer and turned back immediately.

Reno advanced down the valley toward the Indian village which was about two miles from the river crossing. During this movement Reno sent two separate messages, carried by Privates Archibald McIlhargey and John Mitchell, to Custer, each with the same information that the Indians were in force in front of him.


Sitting Bull


Indians poured across Reno's front, many moving to the bluffs on his left. Reno halted and dismounted his command of 128 soldiers to fight in a skirmish line formation, with his right resting on the timber near the river, and extending to his left toward the bluffs. The line advanced about 100 yards toward the village, but no further. Reno sent the horses and G Company into the timber. Out on the valley floor the battle continued, and as the Indians moved to Reno's left, he withdrew the skirmish line to the edge of the timber. The length of the fight until the line withdrew is a matter of argument with opinions ranging from five minutes to a half-hour.

Once in the timber, the fight continued until Reno, not receiving the promised support of "the whole outfit," and concerned about the expenditure of non-replaceable ammunition, decided to withdraw to the bluffs on the east side of the river. Varnum, Lieutenant Charles C. DeRudio, and the scout Herendeen, all saw Custer and/or his command moving north along the bluffs to the east of the Little Big Horn, but no one informed Reno of Custer's movements!

Reno was able to mount most, but clearly not all, of his command in a clearing in the timber. A volley of shots rang out and the Arikara scout, Bloody Knife, at Reno's side, died from a bullet in the head, spattering blood and brains over Reno. Orders to dismount, then mount were given, and the command left the timber for the eastern heights. No organized resistance to the onslaught of the warriors took place either during the retreat or at the river crossing. This retreat, called a charge by Reno, resulted in the reported loss of three officers, at least twenty nine enlisted men, three civilians and two Arikara scouts. It terminated on the bluffs near the current Reno-Benteen battle site, and the result at the time must have appeared even worse, for in addition to those ultimately found dead, there were an officer, three civilians and fifteen soldiers missing, all but four of whom rejoined later that afternoon.

Shortly after reaching the bluffs, Reno was joined by Benteen's battalion which had returned to the trail some distance above the Lone Tepee. On his way to the river, Benteen was passed by Sergeant Daniel Kanipe of Company C who carried a message to the pack train. The message was for the train to come on across country and, in essence, not to worry about the loss of packs unless they contained ammunition.

Benteen was next met by Trumpeter John Martin of Benteen's own Company H with the now famous, and disputed, message, "Benteen, Come on. Big village, Be quick. Bring packs. W.W. Cooke. P. S. Bring Packs." The dispute over this latter message is whether or not its intent was to have Benteen bring forward only the twelve mules with all the reserve ammunition. Proponents of the "ammunition packs" theory assert that Custer intended to make a stand and would need the reserve ammunition. Opponents point out that the word "ammunition" is not used, that Custer had not yet even become engaged, and that to sequester all the ammunition implies an indifference to the fate of Reno and the pack train.

In any event, Benteen reached the river in time to see the last of Reno's "charge" to the bluffs. He joined the shattered unit and Lieutenant Luther Hare was swiftly dispatched to the pack train to bring up several mules with ammunition. At about the same time, firing down river was heard indicating that Custer was engaged. In response to this, Weir, on his own, started down river perhaps thirty- five minutes after arrival at Reno's position. Lieutenant Winfield S. Edgerly, believing Weir had permission to advance, ordered Company D to mount and follow.

This precipitated the disjointed movement by Reno's command. Upon arrival of McDougall and the pack train, Companies H, K and M followed D to a prominent point along the bluffs (today known as Weir Point) and the remainder of the command started in that direction but made little progress. The units on Weir Point abandoned that position and, again in a rather uncontrolled manner, moved back to the area occupied during the siege. The movement was prevented from becoming a disaster by Lieutenant Edward S. Godfrey, who on his own authority, dismounted K Company and covered the retreat.

Reno's command was quickly surrounded and came under heavy fire. Earlier that afternoon, when Custer gave his last order to Reno, he probably had no plan for an enveloping maneuver. However, as he approached the river he was met by Adjutant Cooke bringing Girard's information that the Indians were coming up to meet Reno. This was almost immediately reinforced by the arrival of the first of the soldiers sent by Reno with a message to the same effect. The arrival of the second soldier added emphasis to the fact that a large number of Indians were in the valley. The dust in the valley probably indicated to Custer that the noncombatants were fleeing north. A flanking maneuver to get to the women and children and, at the same time, placing the warriors between him and Reno must have seemed appropriate. In any event, Custer turned north.


Crazy Horse


Then What?

From this point on, there are few absolutes about Custer's action except its outcome. Theories abound. The last soldiers to see him were Kanipe, sent back when Custer first reached a bluff overlooking the river, and Trumpeter Martin, whose point of departure is disputed. Some writers place it in Cedar Coulee and others at the junction of Custer's northward approach and Medicine Tail Coulee, for Martin himself said they had reached a ravine which ran toward the river. There is controversy whether Custer moved along the bluffs next to the river or behind Sharpshooter's Ridge, a prominence north of the Reno-Benteen defense site. Likewise, there are differences of opinion about whether or not Custer personally went to Weir Point, the highest point nearest the river. This would have afforded Custer an unlimited view of the village had he gone there.

In opposition, there is the unquestioned fact that at least four Crow scouts were definitely on Weir Point and not one of them places Custer, or any other soldier, there at any time. Additionally, Martin testified that only the Crow scouts went to Weir Point and that Custer was never there. No matter the route, from there we know, with reasonable certainty, the location of the dead, though the theories of Custer's final actions are numerous.

Passing Sharpshooter's Ridge and proceeding down Cedar Coulee, Custer and his men arrived and halted at the junction of Cedar and South Medicine Tail Coulees. One part of Custer's command, probably Keogh's battalion, with three companies, moved north and occupied areason what is known as Nye-Cartwright Ridge. This ridge divides South Medicine Tail Coulee and North Medicine Tail Coulee, sometimes called Deep Coulee. The latter is the deep ravine at the base of the ridge which runs from Calhoun Hill toward the Little Big Horn where it joins the mouth of South Medicine Tail. Cartridge casing finds clearly indicate troops firing from that point, and any concept of Custer's final battle must include that action if it is to have any validity.



TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: cavalry; custer; freeperfoxhole; littlebighorn; sittingbull
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Theories

One theory has the second part of Custer's command, probably Yates' battalion with two companies, advanced down Medicine Tail Coulee, and was either met by overwhelming force and driven to Battle Ridge, or was recalled by the firing from Keogh's battalion on Nye-Cartwright Ridge. The two battalions rejoined near Battle Ridge, continued north into the present area of the national cemetery, and were finally driven back to Battle Ridge. On the ridge, Lieutenant James Calhoun with Company L, was positioned in an area on the south end of the ridge (now called Calhoun Hill) where that company died, according to contemporary evidence, in skirmish line formation. Keogh and Company I were found on the eastern slope of the Ridge somewhat "in a bunch" which is in accord with some Indian accounts. This theory further places Companies E and C in skirmish line below the Last Stand area and Company F generally surrounding Custer and the headquarters unit on Last Stand Hill. The markers below the Calhoun position allegedly represent troopers shot down, or cut off, as the battalion made its way to its final destruction.

Another theory has Yates' battalion reconnoitering the ford at the mouth of Medicine Tail while Keogh's battalion positioned themselves on Nye-Cartwright Ridge, presumptively waiting for Benteen and the packs. Both commands then rejoined on Calhoun Hill. From there Yates' battalion moved northward as far as the flat land north and west of the Battle Ridge while Keogh's battalion remained on Calhoun Hill to await the arrival of Benteen and to cover the Medicine Tail approaches. These two battalions were then separately engaged by large numbers of Sioux and Cheyenne. Keogh's battalion died first: Company C on the lower slopes of the ridge in the Greasy Grass Ridge area; Company L on Calhoun Hill; and Company I on the eastern slope. The battalion with Custer attained the final stand position where it succumbed to the fire power of the Indian force.

Modifications and combinations of both approaches exists, and the scholar will have to arrive at an independent conclusion about any of them. The recent archaeological studies have made clear that although the Sioux and Cheyenne were not uniformly armed with rifles and pistols, there were far more firearms present than previously believed. The cartridge casings provided the evidence of a far larger number of repeating rifles among the Indian weaponry. These casings also indicate that the flow of battle moved from the Calhoun position to the Last Stand area. Furthermore, the Indian armament would have steadily improved as carbines, pistols and ammunition were taken from the dead.

1 posted on 12/13/2002 5:34:26 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: souris; SpookBrat; Victoria Delsoul; MistyCA; AntiJen; SassyMom
Caveat and Historical Notes:

A caveat to the serious student: Although the geographical references have been the traditional ones, north (Last Stand), south (Calhoun Hill), east (Keogh's slope) and west (riverside), the Indian geography is different and Indian accounts must be perused carefully to determine which is being used. To the Indian, north is Keogh's slope; south (riverside), east (Calhoun Hill) and west (Last Stand). Once the Custer fight was finished, the Indians surrounded Reno on the evening of June 25. Reno's companies were formed in a rough horseshoe position with the open end upriver. The fire from around 7 p.m. until darkness was heavy and some eleven soldiers were killed on the bluff. A hospital was established in a swale, and the horses and mules positioned at the open side of the swale to protect the wounded.

During the night some entrenchments were dug. Packs, boxes and dead animals were dragged into position to protect the troops, particularly in Company A's area at the end of the horseshoe on the eastern side of the siege area.

On June 26, the battle commenced around 2:30 in the morning. The troops were under constant long range fire, particularly Benteen's Co. H in which there were a large number of wounded. The warriors approached Benteen closely from the river side, but a charge drove them from the surrounding knolls and ravines. This opened the way for water carrier parties to obtain some water from the Little Big Horn which then was distributed to the wounded. Late that afternoon, the troops saw a welcome sight as the entire village withdrew in an upstream direction.

It was not until the morning of June 27 that the reason for the withdrawal was clear. The Montana column led by Terry and Gibbon had camped about two miles above the Indian camp the night before, and reached the valley site the next day. On June 26, on their way to the juncture with the 7th Cavalry, three of Custer's Crow scouts had met Lieutenant James Bradley's detachment of Crow scouts and mounted infantry. The fleeing Crows told a story of disaster to Custer which was met with skepticism by the white officers but which led all of Bradley's Crows to leave immediately.

On the morning of June 27, Bradley reported to Terry and Gibbon who were then on the site of the Indian camp. He stated that he had found 197 bodies on the hills to the east. What the Gibbon men thought were dead buffalo, were the mingled bodies of dead horses and soldiers stripped of their clothing .

The two commands then moved into the river bottom, and the soldiers spent most of the day bringing the wounded down from the bluffs. Some investigation of the field was made that day, principally by Benteen, and the next day the 7th Cavalry turned to the gruesome task of burying its dead. The burials were anything but complete, consisting for the most part, of a little dirt and sagebrush thrown over the corpse.

Although the figures vary somewhat, 208 bodies were found and buried, with identification difficult, if not impossible in many cases. Many bodies had been subjected to extensive mutilation immediately after death, and all had been exposed to the hot Montana sun for three days.

On June 28, an effort was made to move the wounded to the steamer Far West, primarily using hand carried litters. The task proved impossible. The next day was given over to creating mule-borne litters with which all of the wounded were successfully carried to the waiting steamer in an all night march. There the wounded were placed on the boat for transport to Fort Abraham Lincoln. The rest of the expedition awaited reinforcements before continuing the campaign.


Click the Guidon to hear Garry Owen

"...there were more Sioux than the soldiers had bullets."

Kevin M. Sullivan's Shattering the Myth: Signposts on Custer's Road to Disaster.


2 posted on 12/13/2002 5:35:23 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: 06isweak; 0scill8r; 100American; 100%FEDUP; 101st-Eagle; 101stSignal; 101viking; 10mm; 10Ring; ...

Drop on in at the FReeper Foxhole!

(If you would like to be added to or removed from this list, please send a FReepmail to AntiJen. Thanks!)

3 posted on 12/13/2002 5:41:08 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: All





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4 posted on 12/13/2002 5:44:33 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Fascinating read. Thanks!
5 posted on 12/13/2002 5:46:44 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: SAMWolf
Just for grins, bump! Look how your ping showed up in "My Comments". "#3 of 2"????????????? LOL !

The FReeper Foxhole Remembers The BATTLE OF THE LITTLE BIG HORN - Dec. 13th, 2002
      Posted by SAMWolf to 06isweak; 0scill8r; 100American; 100%FEDUP; 101st-Eagle; 101stSignal; 101viking; 10mm; 10Ring; ...
On VetsCoR 12/13/2002 7:41 AM CST #3 of 2

Drop on in at the FReeper Foxhole!

(If you would like to be added to or removed from this list, please send a FReepmail to AntiJen. Thanks!)


6 posted on 12/13/2002 5:53:10 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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To: MeeknMing
LOL! Teach me how you did that!
7 posted on 12/13/2002 5:54:13 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Black Hawk Down 1993 and Little Big Horn 1876:

Poor intelligence, inadequate ordinance, not enough ammunition, and a motivated fanatic enemy with superior numbers.

8 posted on 12/13/2002 5:59:43 AM PST by friendly
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To: SAMWolf
You'll have to pardon me if I root for the Indians. I really like that picture, BTW.

JJM - USNR.

Sure you can trust the government. Just ask any Indian.
9 posted on 12/13/2002 6:01:05 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: SAMWolf
On This Day In History


Birthdates which occurred on December 13:
1521 Sixtus V [Felice Peretti/"Montalto"] bishop of Fermo/Pope (1585-90)
1533 Erik XIV Wasa king of Sweden (1560-69)
1553 Henry IV 1st Bourbon-king of Navarre/France (1572/89-1610)
1724 Aepinus [Franz Hoch] German physician/physicist
1732 Jean-Claude Trial composer
1740 Franz Xaver Schnitzer composer
1770 John Clarke-Whitfeld composer
1797 Heinrich Heine Germany, poet/lyricist (Schubert, Liszt)
1810 Clark Mills US, sculptor (Freedom, Armed Liberty)
1816 Clement Claiborne Clay MC (Confederacy), died in 1882
1816 E Werner von Siemens German artillery officer/inventor
1818 Mary Todd Lincoln 1st lady (1861-65)
1819 Edwin George Monk composer
1835 Phillips Brooks Episcopal bishop/composer (Little Town of Bethlehem)
1838 Marie-Alexis Castillon de Saint-Victor composer
1843 George Stephanescu composer
1850 G F Grace cricketer (brother of W G )
1850 Iver Paul Fredrik Holter composer
1853 Joseph Sickman Corsen Curaçao, musician/composer/screenwriter
1858 Jakab Gyula Major composer
1860 Lucien G Guitry French actor/theatre director (l'Odéon)
1863 Johannes Weiss German New Testament scholar
1865 Gustav Luders composer
1871 Russell W Porter Vermont, explorer (Alaska)
1871 Herman T Colenbrander Dutch historian
1874 Ludwig Curtius German archaeologist (Die antike Kunst)
1877 Mykola Dmytrovich Leontovych composer
1886 Lambertus J van Apeldoorn lawyer (martial law)
1889 Clarence Loomis composer
1890 Marc Connelly McKeesport PA, playwright (One Minute Please)
1892 Brand Dirck Ochse filmer/co-founder (Polygoon)
1893 Curt Jurgens Munich Germany, actor (Enemy Below, Longest Day)
1897 Drew Pearson Evanston IL, newscaster (Drew Pearson)
1898 Daniel Lazarus composer
1899 Harold Guinzburg publisher (founder of Literary Guild)
1899 Yusef Greiss composer
19-- Bill Morey Framingham MA, actor (Thorn Birds, Tucker's Witch)
19-- Lenny Schultz Bronx NY, comedian (Ball Four, Laugh-in Revival)
1900 Jonel Perlea composer
1900 Norman Foster Richmond IN, actor (Skyscraper Souls)
1901 Georg M Rimski-Korssakov Russian musicologist/theory
1901 John Wijga painter/illustrator
1902 Paul Kurzbach composer
1902 Talcott Parsons US sociologist
1903 Carlos Montoya Madrid Spain, guitarist (Suite Flamenco 1966)
1903 Jewgeni Petrow writer
1903 John Piper British writer (US Churches in WWI)/official war painter
1906 Ingemar Liljefors composer
1906 Laurens jan van der Post soldier/explorer/conservationist
1908 Victor Babin composer
1910 Van Heflin Walters OK, actor (Great Adventure, Madame Bovary)
1910 Lillian Roth [Rutstein] singer/actress (Animal Crackers)
1911 Kenneth Patchen US, poet/novelist (Cloth of the Tempest)
1913 Archie Moore light-heavyweight boxing champion (1952-60)
1913 Jimmy Carroll New York NY, pianist (Most Important People)
1913 John Wyndham Pope-Hennessy English art historian
1914 Alan L Bullock British historian
1914 George "Tiger" Haynes guitarist/actor (Land Without Music, Guv'nor)
1914 Samuel "Larry" K Parks Olathe KS, actor (Jolson-Jolson Story)
1915 Balthazar Johannes Vorster Prime Minister of South Africa (1966-77)
1915 Mark Stevens Cleveland OH, actor (Big Town, Martin Kane)
1915 Ross MacDonald detective novelist (Goodbye Look)
1917 Dave Street Los Angeles CA, actor/singer (Broadway Open House)
1920 Don Taylor Freeport PA, actor (Father's Little Dividend)
1920 George P Schultz US Secretary of State (1982-89)
1920 Frits Noske Dutch musicologist (Signifier & the Signified
1920 Kaysone Phomvihane/premier/President of Laos (Pathet Lao) (1991-92)
1922 Rex Allen Wilcox AZ, cowboy actor (I Dream of Jeannie)
1922 Halina Czerny-Stefánska Polish pianist (Chopin)
1923 Fred van der Spek Dutch 2nd chamber member (PSP)
1924 Larry Doby 1st black in baseball's American League (Cleveland Indians)
1925 Dick Van Dyke West Plains MO, actor (Rob Petrie-Dick Van Dyke Show)
1925 Henry C Gordon USAF/astronaut (Dynasoar)
1926 Carl Erskine baseball player (Brooklyn Dodgers)
1928 W Gordon Smith playwright
1929 Albert Paulsen Guayaquil Ecuador, actor (Doctors' Hospital)
1929 Christopher Plummer Toronto Ontario, actor (Sound of Music, Doll's House)
1930 Genevieve Page actress (Day & the Hour)
1930 Robert Prosky Philadelphia PA, actor (Christine, Sergeant Jablonski-Hill St Blues)
1934 Richard Darryl Zanuck film producer/executive
1935 Bonno Spieker Dutch 2nd Chamber member (PvdA)
1935 Thomas Wakefield writer
1936 Karim Aga Khan prince/spiritual leader of the Ismaili Muslims
1937 Rob Houwer Dutch director/producer/actor (OK, Professor Columbus)
1938 Alvin Curran composer
1938 Tom Shaw Wichita KS, PGA golfer (1969 Doral Open AVCO Golf Classic)
1938 Tony Gomez rocker (Foundations)
1939 Clive Brain educationalist
1940 Steve Harmon Brooklyn NY, actor (Ens Pulver-Mr Roberts)
1940 Edith Clever Wuppertal Germany, actress (Parsifal, L'Adolescente)
1941 John Davidson Pittsburgh PA, TV host (Hollywood Squares, That's Incredible)
1941 Anouska Hempel Forbes New Zealand, actress (Tiffany Jones)
1943 Arturo Ripstein director (El Lugar Sin Limites, Foxtrot)
1943 Ferguson Jenkins baseball pitcher (Red Sox)
1947 Les Joslin cricketer (Test as batsman for Australia 1968, made 7 & 2)
1948 Jeff "Skunk" Baxter guitarist (Steely Dan-Deacon Blues)
1948 Lillian Board England, 400 meter (Olympics-silver-1968)
1948 Ted Nugent Detroit MI, guitarist (Cat Scratch Fever, Damn Yankees)
1948 Kathy Garver Long Beach CA, actress (Cissy-Family Affair)
1949 Nana Alexandria USSR, International Woman's Chess Grandmaster (1976)
1949 R[oberta] A[nn] MacAvoy US, sci-fi author (Damiano's Lute, Raphael)
1949 Randy Owen Fort Payne AL, country music star (Alabama-Mountain Music)
1949 Tom Verlaine [Miller] Mount Morris NJ, rock vocalist (Television)
1949 Walter "Clyde" Owen rocker
1950 Heather North Pasadena CA, actress (The Barefoot Executive)
1950 Davey O'List rocker (Roxy Music)
1950 Wendie Malick actress (Just Shoot Me)
1951 Robert Lindsay Ilketson England, actor (Strike it Rich, King Lear)
1952 John Francome English jockey
1953 Zoltan Magyar Hungary, side horse gymnast (Olympics-gold-1976, 1980)
1953 Ray Stewart Matsqui British Columbia, Canadian Tour golfer (1994 Dunhill Cup)
1953 Tom Sanders Jackson WY, aerial cameraman (Living Daylights)
1954 John Anderson Apopka FL, country singer/actor (Lone Wolf McQuade)
1954 Steve Forbert rocker
1956 Dale Berra baseball infeilder (Pittsburgh Pirates, New York Yankees)
1956 Phillip Gregory Hubbard Canton OH, basketball (Olympics-gold-1976)
1957 Steve Buscemi actor (Fargo)
1958 Dana Strum Washington DC, rock bassist (Slaughter-Stick it Live)
1958 Clark Brandon New York NY, actor (Fast Food)
1958 Lynn-Holly Johnson Chicago IL, actress (Ice Castles)
1959 John Whitaker Van Nuys CA, actor (Family Affair, Snowball Express)
1959 Marianne Gravatte Hollywood CA, playmate of year (October 1982)
1960 Randy Stoklos Pacific Palisades CA, beach volleyballer (Olympics-96)
1960 Richard Dent defensive end (Philadelphia Eagles)
1961 Gary Zimmerman NFL tackle (Denver Broncos-Superbowl 32)
1962 Karen Witter California, actress (Tina-One Life to Live)/playmate (March 1982)
1965 Stacy Sunny San Bernadino CA, female infielder (Colorado Silver Bullets)
1967 Deborah Driggs Oakland CA, playmate (March 1990)
1967 Jenn Thompson New York NY, actor (Dee-Harper Valley PTA)
1967 Chris O'Loughlin Los Angeles CA, fencer (Olympics-96)
1967 Jamie Foxx comedian (In Living Color)
1967 Mike Mordecai Birmingham AL, infielder (Atlanta Braves)
1967 Scott Zolak NFL quarterback (New England Patriots)
1968 Carlos Hasselbaink Dutch soccer player (VVV/FC Utrecht/Haarlem)
1968 Shaun Stafford Ocala FL, tennis star (1992 Taipei)
1969 Norm Krumpschmd hockey forward (Team Austria 1998)
1969 Sergei Fedorov Pskov Russia, NHL forward (Detroit, Olympics-silver-1998)
1970 Basit Ali cricketer (exciting Pakistani batsman 1993-)
1970 Elizabeth Patricia Reilly North Providence RI, Miss America-Rhode Island (1996)
1970 George Van Os Jr Houston TX, team handball left back (Olympics-1996)
1970 Tonja Yevette Buford-Bailey Dayton OH, 400 meter hurdler (Olympics-bronze-96)
1971 Johnny Dixon WLAF safety (Frankfurt Galaxy)
1971 Miguel Angel Martinez Soto mariachi
1971 Mike Pelton NFL defensive tackle (Indianapolis Colts)
1972 Craig Sauer NFL linebacker (Atlanta Falcons)
1972 GiGi Gordon Butler PA, Miss America-Pennsylvania (1997)
1973 Christie Clark Los Angeles CA, actress (Carrie Brady-Days of Our Life)
1973 Shandon Anderson NBA forward (Utah Jazz)
1974 Chris Lewis CFL safety (Calgary Stampeders)
1975 Matt LeCroy Anderson SC, baseball catcher (Olympics-bronze-96)
1975 Sarah Brady Miss Universe-New Zealand (1996)
1979 Christina Todd Miss Ohio Teen USA (Miss Congeniality-1997)
1981 Chelsea Hertford actress (Casey-Major Dad)





Deaths which occurred on December 13:
0838 Pippijn I King of Aquitania, dies
1048 Al-Biruni Arabic royal astrologer, dies at 74
1124 Callistus II [Guido di Borgogna] Italian Pope (1119-24), dies
1126 Hendrik IX the Black, Duke of Bayern (1120-26), dies
1204 Maimonides Jewish philosopher/talmudic scholar, dies in Cairo at 69
1250 Frederick II German Emperor (1212-1250), dies at 55
1404 Albrecht duke of Bavaria, dies at 74
1521 Manoel I "the Great" King of Portugal (1495-1521), dies at 52
1557 Niccoló Tartaglia Italian mathematician, dies
1565 Konrad von Gesner naturalist, dies at 49
1574 SelŒm II Sari the blonde, sultan of Turkey (1566-74), dies at 50
1603 Franciscus Vieta mathematician, dies in Paris at 63
1622 Jan Campanus composer, dies at 50
1672 Jan II Kazimierz king of Poland (1648-68), dies at 63
1693 Dodoftei Romanian metropolitan of Moldavia/writer (Saint Lives), dies
1693 Willem Van de Velde Dutch the Old, seascape painter, dies at about 82
1729 Anthony Collins English philosopher (On Liberty & Necessity), dies at 53
1738 Gotthard Wagner composer, dies at 59
1769 C F Gellert writer, dies at 54
1774 Susanne K von Klettenberg German friend of Goethes mother, dies at 50
1793 Johann Joachim Christoph Bode composer, dies at 63
1812 Marianne von Martinez composer, dies at 68
1814 Charles Joseph Prince of Ligne Belgian fieldmarshal/author, dies at 79
1862 Conrad Feger Jackson US Union Brigadier-General, dies in battle at 49
1862 Maxcy Gregg US Confederate Brigadier-General, dies in battle at 48
1862 Thomas Reade Rootes Cobb Confederate Brigadier-General, dies in battle at 39
1863 Friedrich Hebbel writer, dies at 50
1872 Helena Beeloo Hague's maid, murdered by Henry Jut
1872 W T van der Kouwen-ten Cate Hague's Dame, murdered by Henry Jut
1881 August Senoa Croatian writer (Kletva [The Curse]), dies at 43
1894 Sarah Parker Remond US/Italian abolitionist, dies at 68
1898 George Frederick Bristow composer, dies at 72
1909 Innokenti F Annenski Russian poet/interpreter, dies at 53
1911 Reg Duff cricketer (23 Tests for Australia 1902-05, 1317 runs), dies
1919 Amintore Galli composer, dies at 74
1921 Frederick Martin cricketer (14 wickets in 2 Tests for England 1890-92), dies
1924 Samuel Gompers organizer (American Federation of Labor), dies at 74
1929 Knut Algot Hakanson composer, dies at 42
1935 John Nicolson cricketer (South African lefty batsman 1926-27), dies
1940 Dusty Tapscott cricket (brother of Doodles, 4&1 in only South Africa Test), dies
1940 George Macaulay cricketer (took 24 wickets in 8 Tests, England 22-33), dies
1942 Eleanor Everest Freer composer, dies at 78
1944 Vassily V Kandinsky abstract artist (Dreamy Inspiration), dies at 78
1944 Lupe Velez actress (Joe Palooka), overdoses on seconal at 34
1945 Robert van Genechten Dutch Nazi (NSB), commits suicide
1945 Vittorio Mario Vanzo composer, dies at 83
1951 Selim Palmgren Finnish pianist/composer (Daniel Hjort), dies at 73
1958 Tim Moore actor (Kingfish-Amos 'n' Andy), dies at 70
1958 Ahmed Mukhtar Baban premier of Iraq, executed
1958 Barhanuddin Bashajan Iraqi minister of Foreign affairs, executed
1958 Brand Dirck Ochse film/bioscope pioneer (Polygoon), dies at 66
1958 Rafiq Aref Iraqi chief-staff Arabs Statenbond, executed
1961 Grandma [Anna M] Moses US painter, dies at 101
1963 Hubert Pierlot Belgian advocate/premier (1939-45), dies at 79
1966 Charles Watts actor (Lone Ranger & Lost City of Gold), dies of cancer
1968 Siegfried Reda composer, dies at 52
1969 Raymond A Spruance US admiral (battle of Midway), dies at 83
1971 Max Mell Austrian artillery officer/literary, dies at 88
1974 Rufe Davis actor (Floyd Smoot-Petticoat Junction), dies at 66
1975 Cyril Delevanti actor (Lucius-Jefferson Davis), dies at 88
1975 Hendrik Kruls Dutch general/chief military authority (1944-46), dies at 73
1976 Eduard Claudius writer, dies
1979 Jon Hall actor (Ramor of the Jungle), dies at 66
1980 Harm van Riel Dutch Liberal Party politician, dies at 73
1981 Pigmeat Markham comedian (Here Comes da Judge-Laugh In), dies at 75
1981 Cornelius Cardew composer, dies at 45
1982 Jack Badcock cricketer (7 Tests, 1 century but inconsistent), dies
1983 Leora Dana actress (Amityville II, Change of Habit, Sylvie Kosloff-Another World), dies at 60
1983 Mary Renault [Challans] British author (Funeral games), dies at 78
1986 Heather Angel actress (Lifeboat, Daniel Boone), dies at 77
1990 Alice Marble California, tennis star, dies at 77
1990 Friedrich Dürrenmatt Swiss writer (Besuch der alten Dame), dies at 69
1991 André Pieyre de Mandiargues French writer (La marge), dies at 82
1992 Bernard Drukker Dutch pianist/orchestra leader (duivelswiel), dies
1993 Charles Jonckheere Flemish poet/writer: Ogentroost, dies at 87
1994 Antoine Pinay PM of France (1952-53), dies
1994 Herman W "Fritz" Liebert US librarian/Yale-curator, dies at 83
1994 Norman Beaton actor (Eureka, Black Joy, Mighty Quinn), dies at 60
1995 Evangeline Bruce hostess, dies at 81
1995 Nancy LaMott singer, dies at 43
1996 Cao Yu dramatist, dies at 86
1996 Charles Edwin Molnar computer pioneer, dies at 61
1996 Edward Blishen writer teacher/broadcaster, dies at 76
1996 Mae Barnes singer, dies at 89
1997 Alexander Oppenheim mathematician, dies at 94
1997 Martin Carter poet/critic, dies at 70
1997 Rafael Jose Fernandez de la Calzada y Ferrer restaurateur, dies at 83




On this day...
0863 Boudouin with the Iron Arm weds Charles de Kales' daughter Judith
1294 Pope Coelestinus V ends term
1545 Pope Paul III opens Council of Trente (19th ecumenical council)
1570 Sweden/Denmark signs Peace of Stettin
1572 Spanish army beats Geuzen fleet under Admiral Lumey
1577 Sir Francis Drake sets sail from England to go around the world
1621 Emperor Ferdinand II delegates 1st anti-Reformation decree
1642 New Zealand discovered by Dutch navigator Abel Tasman
1668 Jean Racines "Britannicus" premieres in Paris
1734 England & Russia sign trade agreement
1742 Willem KH Friso tests his mothers potatoes
1759 1st music store in America opens (Philadelphia)
1769 Dartmouth College in New Hampshire received its charter
1774 1st incident of the Revolution-400 attack Fort William & Mary, New Hampshire
1816 Patent for a dry dock issued to John Adamson, Boston
1823 Gioacchino Rossini arrives in London
1833 HMS Beagle/Charles Darwin arrives in Port Deseado, Patagonie
1843 "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens published, 6,000 copies sold
1861 Battle of Alleghany Summit WV
1862 Battle of Fredericksburg VA (Marye's Heights); South beats North
1864 Battle of Fort McAllister GA
1879 1st federal fish hatching steamer launched (Wilmington DE)
1889 Belgium rules on women/child labor law
1895 1st complete execution of Gustav Mahlers 2nd Symphony
1900 Battle at Nooitgedacht: Generals The la Rey/Smuts beat Britten
1901 Test debut of S F Barnes vs Australia SCG, took 5-65 in 1st innings
1903 Italo Marcioni patents the ice cream cone (New Jersey)
1903 Wright Brothers make 1st flight at Kittyhawk
1906 German chancellor Bernhard von Bülow disbands the Parliament
1907 George Gunn scores 119 on Test debut vs Australia SCG
1907 German emperor Wilhelm II visits Amsterdam
1913 Mona Lisa stolen in Aug 1911 returned to Louvre
1916 Avalanche kills 10,000 Austrian & Italian troops in 24 hours in Tyrol
1916 Esme Stuart Lennox Robinsons premieres in Dublin
1916 French chief of staff Joffre replaced by Nivelle
1918 US army of occupation crosses the Rhine, enters Germany
1918 Woodrow Wilson, becomes 1st to make a foreign visit as President (France)
1919 Ross & Smith land in Australia from a flight from London
1920 F Pease's interferometer measures 1st stellar diameter (Betelgeuse)
1920 League of nations establishes International Court of Justice in The Hague
1920 Netherlands breaks contact with kingdoms of Serbia, Croatia & Slavia
1922 Charles Ebbets proposes putting numbers on players' sleeves or caps
1924 KOA-AM in Denver CO begins radio transmissions
1928 George Gershwin's "An American In Paris" premieres (New York NY)
1928 Clip-on tie designed
1930 George Sisler's career ends when Boston Braves release him
1930 Theodore Steeg forms French government
1934 Mark Hellinger Theater (Warner Brothers) opens at 237 W 51st St New York NY
1936 Final Boston Redskin NFL game, lose to Packers 21-6, move to Washington DC
1936 Green Bay Packers win NFL championship
1938 Los Angeles freezes at 28ºF
1939 Battle at La Plata - 3 British cruisers vs German Graf Spee
1941 German occupiers forbid National Front & Netherlands Union
1941 Lawine battlers destroy Haaraz, Peru; about 3,000 die
1941 U-81 torpedoes British aircraft carrier Ark Royal
1942 Seyss-Inquart allows Dutch Nazi Anton Mussert to call himself Leader
1942 Washington Redskins defeat Chicago Bears 14-6, to win NFL title
1943 150 US Marauders bomb Schiphol
1944 Japanese kamikaze crashes into US cruiser Nashville, kills 138
1944 Norman Krasna's "Dear Ruth" premieres in New York NY
1946 Léon Blum elected French premier
1947 Maine Turnpike opens to traffic
1947 "Caribbean Carnival" closes at International NYC after 11 performances
1949 American League votes down proposal to revive the spitball
1949 Knesset votes to transfer Israel's capitol to Jerusalem
1950 "Let's Make an Opera" opens at John Golden Theater NYC for 5 performances
1950 James Dean begins his career with an appearance in a Pepsi commercial
1951 Future British PM Margaret Roberts Thatcher marries Denis Thatcher
1953 KOAM TV channel 7 in Pittsburg-Joplin KS (CBS) begins broadcasting
1956 Dodgers trade Jackie Robinson to Giants for pitcher Dick Littlefield & $35,000 Robinson retires
1959 Archbishop Makarios elected 1st President of Cyprus
1960 Italy beats US in Davis cup (1st time in 24 years US not in finals)
1960 Laos General Fumi Nosavang occupies Vientiane
1961 Beatles sign a formal agreement to be managed by Brian Epstein
1961 Gideon Hausner in Jerusalem demands death penalty for Adolf Eichmann
1961 Jimmy Dean's Big Bad John album is country music's 1st million $ seller
1962 Relay 1 communication satellite launched
1963 Capitol records signs right of 1st refusal agreement with the Beatles
1964 In El Paso TX, LBJ & Mexican President Gustavo Diaz Ordaz set off an explosion diverting Rio Grande, to reshape US-México border
1964 Shirley Englehorn & Sam Snead win Haig & Haig Mixed Foursome Golf
1965 Algerian President Boumédienne visits Moscow
1966 1st battle for Bijlmer flats Amsterdam
1966 1st US bombing of Hanoi
1966 Test debut of Clive Lloyd, vs India Bombay, 82 & 78
1966 US performs nuclear test at Nevada Test Site
1967 United Soccer Association & National Pro Soccer League merge into NASL
1967 Unsuccessful coup against Greek King Constantine II
1968 Playland at the Beach reopens
1968 President Da Costa e Silva of Brazil disbands parliament/grabs power
1969 Billy Martin fired as Twins' manager
1969 Arlo Guthrie releases "Alice's Restaurant"
1970 Greg Chappell scores 108 on Test debut vs England at the WACA
1970 Neil Simon's "Gingerbread Lady" premieres in New York NY
1971 John Sinclair (sentenced to 10 years for selling 2 marijuana joints) is freed
1973 World Football League grants 1st franchise (Detroit)
1973 MPLA/FNLA accord about combat against Portuguese Libya
1974 Malta becomes a republic
1974 Jim "Catfish" Hunter wins free agent claim against A's owner Finley
1975 1st time Saturday Night Live uses a time delay (Richard Pryor hosts)
1975 Australian Conservatives & Liberals win parliamentary election
1975 Jane Blalock wins LPGA 14 Colgate Triple Crown Golf Tournament
1975 Roy Fredericks hits 169 vs Australia at WACA, hundred in 71 balls
1975 USSR performs nuclear test at Eastern Kazakhstan/Semipalitinsk USSR
1976 Golden Gate Bridge District starts ferry service to Larkspur
1976 Longest non-stop passenger airflight (Sydney to San Francisco 13 hours 14 minutes)
1977 Entire University of Evansville basketball team (14 players) die in plane crash
1978 Susan B Anthony dollar, 1st US coin to honor a woman, issued
1979 "Oklahoma!" opens at Palace Theater NYC for 301 performances
1979 Strikes against price increases in Gdansk Poland
1980 "Perfectly Frank" closes at Helen Hayes Theater NYC after 16 performances
1981 Polish government declares martial law, arrests Solidarity activists
1981 70th Davis Cup: USA beats Argentina in Cincinnati (3-1)
1982 Devils' 1st hat trick-Steve Tambellini
1982 71st Australian Men's Tennis: Johan Kriek beats Steve Denton (63 63 62)
1982 Earthquake hits Northern Yemen; 2,000 die
1983 9,655 see highest-scoring NBA game: Detroit 186, Denver 184 (3 OT)
1983 Islander's Butch Goring scorings 4 goals against Oilers
1983 KYA-AM in San Francisco CA changes call letters to KOIT
1983 Martha Layne Collins inaugurated as Kentucky's 1st female governor
1983 British Airways incorporates
1984 Artificial heart recipient William Schroeder suffers 1st stroke
1985 David Boon's 1st Test century, 123 vs India at Adelaide
1985 Test debut of Merv Hughes, Geoff Marsh & Bruce Reid (v India)
1987 Belgium Christian Democrats (CVP) loses parliamentary election
1987 Browns set club record for most points scored in a quarter, 28
1987 USSR performs nuclear test at Eastern Kazakhstan/Semipalitinsk USSR
1988 3 men end 29-hour all-466-station subway ride in New York NY
1988 Yasser Arafat addresses UN in Geneva
1989 Forced repatriation of Vietnamese in Hong Kong
1989 Walter Davis (Denver) ends NBA free throw streak of 53 games
1990 President De Klerk of South Africa meets with Nelson Mandela to talk of end of apartheid
1990 "Peter Pan" opens at Lunt-Fontanne Theater NYC for 45 performances
1990 Heavy earthquake strikes Sicily, 18 die
1991 Both Koreas sign an accord calling for reconciliation
1991 New York assembly speaker Mel Miller is convicted of federal mail fraud
1991 Ricky Pierce (Seattle) ends NBA free throw streak of 75 games
1992 "Show Off" closes at Criterion Theater NYC after 45 performances
1992 Dawn Coe-Jones wins Pizza-La LPGA Match Play Golf Championship
1992 FCC fines Infinity Broadcasting $600,000
1993 Deadline for Israeli troop withdrawal from Gaza, they don't
1993 Dow Jones hits record 3764.43
1993 Fire in textile factory in Fuzjou China, 60 killed
1993 Space shuttle STS-61 (Endeavour 5) lands
1994 American Eagle commuter plane crashes in North Carolina, killing 15
1995 Christopher Reeve is released from physical rehab center
1995 US Federal Court votes that Cable companies must carry local stations
1996 Free agent Roger Clemens signs with Toronto Blue Jays
1997 63rd Heisman Trophy Award: Charles Woodson, Michigan (CB)





Holidays
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"

Malta : Republic Day
Upper Volta : National Day




Religious Observances
Moslem : New Year
Roman Catholic : Memorial of St Lucy, virgin & martyr (St Lucia Day in Sweden)
Roman Catholic : Commemoration of St Odilia, abbess, patroness of the blind




Religious History
1204 Death of Maimonides (Moses ben Maimon), 69, medieval Jewish scholar and author. His greatest writing, "Guide of the Perplexed" (1190) attempted to harmonize Aristotelian philosophy with rabbinic Judaism.
1823 Birth of William W. How, Anglican clergyman. Shunning the glory of higher ecclesiastical positions, How was known for his work among the poor in East London. He also wrote 50 hymns, of which "We Give Thee But Thine Own" and "For All the Saints" remain two of his most popular.
1835 Birth of Phillips Brooks, American Episcopal clergyman. Though he produced ten volumes of sermons, he is better remembered today as author of the Christmas carol, "O Little Town of Bethlehem," written in 1868 for the children of his Sunday School.
1851 Birth of E.O. Excell, American sacred chorister. Excell published 50 gospel songbooks and wrote and composed 2,000 hymns, including "Since I Have Been Redeemed, "Count Your Blessings" and "I'll Be a Sunbeam for Jesus."
1950 American missionary martyr Jim Elliot wrote in his journal: 'I think God is to be glorified by asking the impossible of Him.'




Thought for the day :
" When all else fails, read the directions. "
10 posted on 12/13/2002 6:03:02 AM PST by Valin
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To: SAMWolf
I understand that there were a number of MOHs given in the Reno-Benteen action. Do you have the details?
11 posted on 12/13/2002 6:03:10 AM PST by the_doc
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To: SAMWolf
Bump for the Foxhole
12 posted on 12/13/2002 6:12:09 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: SAMWolf
Oh come all ye faithful
Be sure and
Click the Pics

J

Oh Little Town Jolly old Saint Nick Rudolph Little Drummer Boy

Holly Jolly Christmas

Click Here for Christmas Graphics J

13 posted on 12/13/2002 6:18:40 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: SAMWolf; All
Coos Bay Coast Guard Rescue Latest Update 0545 PST
Intrepid and 55' sailboat in tow still waiting to cross bar.
They have been circiling the bouy all night.
All crew members on both boats doing ok.
The 2 47' boats will be getting underway around 0645 PST and sit inside the bar.
Bar breaking at 14'+ at 0545 PST Winds picking up.
Please continue your prayers.
Original Thread Here



14 posted on 12/13/2002 6:21:18 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
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To: SAMWolf; dighton; general_re
SAMWolf, please sign me up for your FReeper Foxhole alerts.

An outstanding book on the subject is "Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle" by Richard Allan Fox, Jr. By using bullet/cartridge "fingerprinting" on cartridge casings and bullets gathered up from around the battlefield, the archaeological team was able to follow individual weapons (and, as a result, those firing them) around the battlefield to different locations. Some fascinating detective work, as well as a number of different theories as to the flow of the battle.

15 posted on 12/13/2002 6:21:44 AM PST by BlueLancer
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To: SAMWolf
bump
16 posted on 12/13/2002 6:23:15 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: SAMWolf
LOL ! Isn't that strange? Weird things happen sometimes with the FR software, I guess.
17 posted on 12/13/2002 6:24:44 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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To: SAMWolf
That would be the first picture of Crazy Horse I have ever seen since all my other sources have said he never allowed a photograph to be taken.
18 posted on 12/13/2002 6:31:18 AM PST by junta
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To: jjm2111
Did we ever keep any treaty we signed with any of the Indian Tribes?
19 posted on 12/13/2002 6:35:01 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: friendly
Black Hawk Down 1993 and Little Big Horn 1876:

Poor intelligence, inadequate ordinance, not enough ammunition, and a motivated fanatic enemy with superior numbers.

I beg your pardon. "Fanatic enemy"? (And the parallel you're attempting to draw has me a little, ummmmm...confused, I guess. Maybe I'd better sit this one out.)

20 posted on 12/13/2002 6:35:37 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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To: Valin
LOL! Real men NEVER read directions.
21 posted on 12/13/2002 6:35:51 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: the_doc
Medal of Honor Recipiants:

BANCROFT, NEIL
Rank and organization: Private, Company A, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Chicago, Ill. Birth: Oswego, N.Y. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Brought water for the wounded under a most galling fire.

BRANT, ABRAM B.
Rank and organization: Private, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: St. Louis, Mo. Birth: New York, N.Y. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Brought water for the wounded under a most galling fire.

CALLEN, THOMAS J.
Rank and organization: Private, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date. At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25-26 June 1876. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Birth: Ireland. Date of issue: 24 October 1896. Citatlon: Volunteered and succeeded in obtaining water for the wounded of the command; also displayed conspicuously good conduct in assistlng to drive away the Indians.

CRISWELL, BANJAMIN C.
Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at:------. Birth: Marshall County, W. Va. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Rescued the body of Lt. Hodgson from within the enemy's lines; brought up ammunition and encouraged the men in the most exposed positions under heavy fire.

CUNNINGHAM, CHARLES
Rank and organization: Corporal, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: New York, N.Y. Birth: Hudson, N.Y. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Declined to leave the line when wounded in the neck during heavy fire and fought bravely all next day.

DEETLINE, FREDERICK
Rank and organization: Private, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Baltimore, Md. Birth: Germany. Date of issue: 15 October 1878. Citation: Voluntarily brought water to the wounded under fire.

GEIGER, GEORGE
Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company H, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: ------. Birth: Cincinnati, Ohio. Date of issue: S October 1878. Citation: With 3 comrades during the entire engagement courageously held a position that secured water for the command.

GOLDIN, THEODORE W.
Rank and organization: Private, Troop G, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 26 June 1876. Entered service at: Chicago, Ill. Born: 25 July 1855, Avon, Rock County, Wis. Date of issue: 21 December 1895. Citation: One of a party of volunteers who, under a heavy fire from the Indians, went for and brought water to the wounded .

HANLEY, RICHARD P.
Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company C, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at:------. Birth: Boston, Mass. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation. Recaptured, singlehanded, and without orders, within the enemy's lines and under a galling fire lasting some 20 minutes, a stampeded pack mule loaded with ammunition.

HARRIS, DAVID W.
Rank and organization: Private, Company A, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Cincinnati, Ohio. Birth: Indianapolis, Ind. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Brought water to the wounded, at great danger to his life, under a most galling fire from the enemy.

HARRIS, WILLIAM M.
Rank and organization: Private, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Mt. Vernon, Ky. Birth: Madison County, Ky. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Voluntarily brought water to the wounded under fire of the enemy.

HOLDEN, HENRY
Rank and organization: Private, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: ------. Birth: England. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Brought up ammunition under a galling fire from the enemy.

HUTCHINSON, RUFUS D.
Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Cincinnati, Ohio. Birth: Butlerville, Ohio. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Guarded and carried the wounded, brought water for the same, and posted and directed the men in his charge under galling fire from the enemy.

MECHLIN, HENRY W. B.
Rank and organization: Blacksmith, Company H, 7th U.S. Cavalry Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Pittsburgh, Pa. Born: 14 October 1851, Mount Pleasant, Westmoreland County, Pa. Date of issue: 29 August 1878. Citation: With 3 comrades during the entire engagement courageously held a position that secured water for the command.

MURRAY, THOMAS
Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at:------. Birth: Ireland. Date of issue: S October 1878. Citation: Brought up the pack train, and on the second day the rations, under a heavy flre from the enemy.

PYM, JAMES
Rank and organization: Private, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn River, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Birth: Oxfordshire, England. Date of issue: S October 1878. Citation: Voluntarily went for water and secured the same under heavy fire.

ROY, STANISLAUS
Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company A, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at:------. Birth: France. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Brought water to the wounded at great danger to life and under a most galling fire of the enemy.

SCOTT, GEORGE D.
Rank and organization: Private, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25-26 June 1876. Entered service at: Mt. Vernon, Ky. Birth: Lancaster County, Ky. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Voluntarily brought water to the wounded under fire.

STIVERS, THOMAS W.
Rank and organization: Private, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25-26 June 1876. Entered service at: Mt. Vernon, Ky. Birth: Madison County, Ky. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Voluntarily brought water to the wounded under fire.

THOMPSON, PETER
Rank and organization: Private, Company C, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Pittsburgh, Pa. Birth: Scotland. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: After having voluntarily brought water to the wounded, in which effort he was shot through the head, he made two successful trips for the same purpose, notwithstanding remonstrances of his sergeant.

TOLAN, FRANK
Rank and organization: Private, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Birth: Malone, N.Y. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Voluntarily brought water to the wounded under fire.

VOIT, OTTO
Rank and organization: Saddler, Company H, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25 June 1876. Entered service at: ------. Birth: Germany. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: Volunteered with George Geiger, Charles Windolph, and Henry Mechlin to hold an exposed position standing erect on the brow of the hill facing the Little Big Horn River. They fired constantly in this manner for more than 20 minutes diverting fire and attention from another group filling canteens of water that were desperately needed.

WELCH, CHARLES H.
Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company D, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25-26 June 1876. Entered service at: Ft. Snelling, Minn. Birth: New York, N.Y. Date of issue 5 October 1878. Citation: Voluntarily brought water to the wounded under fire.

WINDOLPH, CHARLES
Rank and organization: Private, Company H, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Little Big Horn, Mont., 25-26 lune 1876. Entered service at: Brooklyn, N.Y. Born: 9 December 1851, Germany. Date of issue: 5 October 1878. Citation: With 3 comrades, during the entire engagement, courageously held a position that secured water for the command.




22 posted on 12/13/2002 6:46:45 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: Fiddlstix
Thanks for bringing the Christmas Cheer Fiddlestix
23 posted on 12/13/2002 6:47:38 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub
Thanks for the update Tonk.
24 posted on 12/13/2002 6:48:06 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Directions? What are they, are they good to eat?
25 posted on 12/13/2002 6:49:19 AM PST by Valin
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To: SAMWolf
Not to the best of my knowledge. Even worse was when the gov't hoarded the Indians on to reservations they were forbidden to wear their traditional clothing. They were forbidden to practice their religion and in many cases to even speak their native language.

It wasn't our proudest moment.
26 posted on 12/13/2002 6:49:27 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: SAMWolf
Thanks for bringing the Christmas Cheer Fiddlestix

You're welcome J

27 posted on 12/13/2002 6:50:46 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: junta
That's what I believed too. However, I found that same picture on two different sites claiming it to be Crazy Horse so I figured I'd use it. Of course it's the Internet,so I'd take it with a grain of salt.
28 posted on 12/13/2002 6:53:09 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: jjm2111
Our dealings with the Indians was and in some cases, still is atrocious.
29 posted on 12/13/2002 6:56:24 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Man... We sure opened up a can of whoop-ass on old Custer, didn't we? ;0)

Good morning everyone!
30 posted on 12/13/2002 6:57:01 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
Fanatical is fine by me LOL - fight to win, or don't bother fighting at all, ya know?

Good morning, Duchess! :)
31 posted on 12/13/2002 7:02:29 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks
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To: Chad Fairbanks
In High School we used to attribute this quote to Custer:

Let's kick their ass and get the Hell out of here.

--- Colonel George Armstrong Custer
32 posted on 12/13/2002 7:02:47 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Personally, I get a thrill listening to Ray Stevens' "Please Mr. Custer... I dont' want to go..."


Chad "Look at them bushes over there... and there's a wild injun behind every one..." Fairbanks
33 posted on 12/13/2002 7:04:42 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks
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To: junta
Here's what I found out about that photo. The Lakota claim it's a fake and not Crazy Horse and that he was never photographed.

"Portrait of Chief Crazy Horse"

Herein is an enlargement of what I believe is an authentic picture of Crazy Horse. The original is a small tintype, 2 1/2 X 3 1/2 inches, in excellant condition. Its first owner was Baptiste Garnier (Little Bat) the famous scout and frontiersman. When Bat was murdered in 1900 it went to his wife; on her death it was inherited by her daughter, Ellen Howard, from whom Mr. Hackett obtained it, after which it came to me, so the line of ownership is quite clear. I have a certificate from Mrs. Howard attesting that the tintype belonged to her father, and that it had been in the family since it had been made. She also says that her father told his family that it was truly a picture of Crazy Horse.

First publication was by J. W. Vaughn in his excellant With Crook at the Rosebud, (Stackpole, 1956). The account tells of finding the picture in an old trunk, which is probably true, but after that point my investigations do not agree with the information supplid to Mr. Vaughn. The account said the picture was taken about 1870 at Fort Laramie. There were two other pictures, one of Little Bat and his wife, and the other of Bat and Frank Grouard. We do not know if they were part of the same series but if they were, they were not taken in 1870 for the following reasons: Grouard tells in his biography, Life and Adventures of Frank Grouard, by Joe DeBarthe (1894, p. 117), that he met Crazy Horse for the first time just a few days after the battle between the Sioux and the Stanley Expedition on the Yellowstone River - this took place August 4th, 1873. Another point, in 1870 Bat was 15 or 16 years old; I do not believe a war chief of the Oglalas was hanging around with a teen-ager. Crazy Horse had been made a chief only a little more than a year previous - he was out in the hinterlands with his band of warriors and their families; he was not hanging around the fort for the white man's handouts as did Red Cloud and Spotted Tail. At this time and for several more years probably his only contact with the white man was across the sights of his Winchester.

Following their surrender in May 1877, Crazy Horse and his chief warriors were signed up as Indian Scouts ostensibly to keep tab on the Nez Perce, but with Lieutenant Clark on the job you may be sure they were under his eagle eye both day and night. The whites were afraid of this man and kept close track of his every move, so he was not let out on any scouting trips. Time was very heavy on his hands, the tiny details of every day living were a nuisance to him, begging for supplies and food, or settling a quarrel between the women, so one day when Little Bat rode past the camp on his way to Fort Robinson he easily persuaded Crazy Horse to come along and see what they could see. Crazy Horse liked Bat, and Mrs. Bat was a cousin of his, so he was at ease and relaxed, being with his friends. While at the Fort, with everyone in high good humor Bat dared Crazy Horse to have his picture taken, and he finally consented. According to the story he even borrowed the moccasins to make a good appearance. I know all previous picture requests had been refused; these had all been made by white men, and the white man had been trying for years to kill Crazy Horse and his people, so why should he do even the slightest favor for them. Also, on this last summer of his life he did a number of things he had never done before. On this one time he let down his guard for his good friend Bat. We also know there was a photographer at the Fort in the summer of 1877 as I have another photo stamped Fort Robinson in the mounting and this was taken in 1877.

The picture shows an Indian of medium stature, lighter-haired than the average Indian, with a rounded face rather than one with high, wide cheekbones. His hair is in two braids to his waist, and he wears two feathers which was customary for Crazy Horse. Mr. Hackett has a set of feathers given him by an old chief and they are exactly similar to those shown in the photo. Also the picture shows clearly the scar in the left corner of his mouth where he was shot some years before by No Water, after he had ridden away with No Water's wife.

It is unfortunate that the secretive nature of the old-time Indians dealing with whites caused this picture to be so long hidden. We know of trunks and bags which still hold relics of the Custer battle. Even thrity years ago would have been sufficient for proper identification, as He Dog lived until 1936, and Docotor McGillycuddy who knew and liked Crazy Horse, lived until June of 1939. Either man could have said yes or no at first glimpse, but neither saw it and now it is too late. From the people involved and my searches I firmly believe this is an authentic likeness of Crazy Horse...written by Carroll Friswold

34 posted on 12/13/2002 7:08:51 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: Chad Fairbanks
I love that song!

"They were sure of Victory,
The men of the 7th Cavalry,
As they road on.

From the rear a voice was heard..."
35 posted on 12/13/2002 7:12:16 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Mr. Custer

Artist: Larry Verne (peak Billboard position # 1 in 1960)
Words and Music by Fred Darian, Al DeLory, and Joe Van Winkle


<Indian drums throughout>
<Indian war whoops>

(That famous day in history the men of the 7th Cavalry went riding on)
(And from the rear a voice was heard)
(A brave you man with a trembling word rang loud and clear)
What am I doin' here??

Please Mr. Custer, I don't wanna go
Hey, Mr. Custer, please don't make me go
I had a dream last night about the comin' fight
Somebody yelled "attack!”
And there I stood with a arrow in my back.

Please Mr. Custer, I don't wanna go (forward Ho!!)--aaww

SPOKEN: Look at them bushes out there
They're moving and there's a injun behind every one
Hey, Mr. Custer-you mind if I be excused the rest of the afternoon?
HEY CHARLIE, DUCK YER HEAD!! <sound of arrow whizzing by>
Hmm, you're a little bit late on that one, Charlie
Hooh, I bet that smarts!

(They were sure of victory, the men of the 7th Cavalry, as they rode on)
(But then from the rear a voice was heard)
(That same brave voice with the trembling word rang loud and clear)
What am I doin' here??

Please Mr. Custer, I don't wanna go
Listen, Mr. Custer, please don't make me go
There's a redskin a'waitin' out there, just fixin to take my hair
A coward I've been called cuz I don't wanna wind up dead or bald

Please Mr. Custer, I don't wanna go (forward HO)--aaww

SPOKEN: I wonder what the injun word for friend is
Let's see-friend-- kemo sabe, that's it
KEMO SABE!, HEY OUT THERE-KEMO SABE! <sound of arrow whizzing by>
Nope, that itn't it
Look at them durned injuns
They're runnin' around like a bunch of wild Indians-heh, heh, heh
Nah, this ain't no time for jokin'
<sound of arrow whizzing by>
<sound of arrow whizzing by>
36 posted on 12/13/2002 7:18:43 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks
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To: Chad Fairbanks; Victoria Delsoul
Thanks Chad! Now I'm gonna have that song running through my mind all day!


37 posted on 12/13/2002 7:22:51 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Excellent read, SW! This has always been one of my favorite, and most fastinating parts of US History.
Thanks for posting it :)
38 posted on 12/13/2002 7:44:05 AM PST by kstewskis
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To: SAMWolf
LOL! Real men NEVER read directions.

Or maps. We get a lot of left over parts and spend alot of our time lost tho. Small price to pay for manhood. :-)
39 posted on 12/13/2002 7:55:03 AM PST by steve50
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To: SAMWolf
Please take me off this ping list. Thanks.
40 posted on 12/13/2002 7:56:40 AM PST by LivingNet
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To: steve50
Those aren't "left over" parts, those are "spare parts". LOL
41 posted on 12/13/2002 7:57:02 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: LivingNet; AntiJen
OK. We will take you off. Thank you.
42 posted on 12/13/2002 7:58:59 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
I notice that all of these except for one involved valor in securing and distributing supplies, especially water. As I recall the story, the heroism involving the waterbearers and their sniper cover was incredible.
43 posted on 12/13/2002 8:03:44 AM PST by the_doc
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To: SAMWolf; Fred Mertz; VOA; Joy Angela; Carl/NewsMax; kristinn; Registered; JMJ333; Joe Montana; ...
NEVER FORGET

...For more on the 1st Battalion, U.S. 7th Cavalry's 2nd Battle of the LITTLE BIG HORN...

...the Battle of the IA DRANG VALLEY in November 1965...

...only this time WE won...

...go to our .."WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE and YOUNG".. website:

.. http://www.lzxray.com ..

...Photos of that week in that Valley of Death can be seen by...

...accessing the ..'IA DRANG - Interest'.. Section...

...at the Bottom Right Corner of the Home Page for my:

..'RONNIE GUYER PHOTO COLLECTION'..


...See also my Bookmarked Thread List of Battle of IA DRANG - "WE WERE SOLDIERS" Threads simply by hitting the ..'ALOHA RONNIE'.. on this Post.

.."WE WERE SOLDIERS".. MEL GIBSON/RANDALL WALLACE's...

...Braveheart in 'Nam Motion Picture is now available for...

...Christmas gift-giving in a supurb DVD/Video Tape Edition...

...while we here enjoy our hard won FREEDOMS in our Beloved Country this Holiday Season.


Signed:..ALOHA RONNIE Guyer / Vet-Battle of IA DRANG-1965 / Landing Zone Falcon / http://www.lzxray.com

NEVER FORGET
44 posted on 12/13/2002 8:50:37 AM PST by ALOHA RONNIE
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To: SAMWolf
NEVER FORGET

...For more on the Battle of IA DRANG and .."WE WERE SOLDIERS"..

...Enter "ALOHA RONNIE Guyer" in...

.. http://www.Google.com ..

...Uh, Over.

NEVER FORGET
45 posted on 12/13/2002 8:53:52 AM PST by ALOHA RONNIE
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To: SAMWolf
Hi SAM - I recently started watching TV again after a long hiatus and caught a interesting documentry that reconstructed the entire battle using forensic science. It seemed pretty convincing.

46 posted on 12/13/2002 8:55:58 AM PST by Aura Of The Blade
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To: SAMWolf
Fascinating. KEEP me on your ping list.
47 posted on 12/13/2002 9:04:28 AM PST by WSGilcrest
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To: Chad Fairbanks
Fanatical is fine by me LOL - fight to win, or don't bother fighting at all, ya know?

Well then, as a white person, I just want to go on record as saying how absolutely terrified of you I truly am, your being so wild-eyed, fanatical, and all that. In fact, I'm jittery just being on this thread with you.

So please, don't make any sudden moves.

(Good morning, Chad "Look at them bushes over there... and there's a wild injun behind every one..." Fairbanks. It's great to see you.)

(A/M, should there be any doubt, I am SO joking.)

48 posted on 12/13/2002 9:29:27 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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To: ALOHA RONNIE
Thanks Aloha Ronnie. It's on my list along with "Band of Brothers."

Thank for you service in the IA DRANG VALLEY.

49 posted on 12/13/2002 9:31:59 AM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SAMWolf
Neat stuff. Does anyone know where I can order prints of famous battle paintings?
50 posted on 12/13/2002 9:50:52 AM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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