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An ever-popular topic of debate on Free Republic is the issue of the proper role and extent of Federal governance; presuming an agreement, more or less, on the idea that Federal power and budgeting really ought to be returned to a Strict-Constitutionalist, Limited-Powers, Republican-Form-Of-Government range of Programs and Expenditures, we are subsequently encouraged to ask ourselves the question, “How should we then Tax?”
The differing views are legion... some favor cuts in the current Tax Code; others a Flat Tax; still others a National Sales Tax and for some of our adventurous Libertarian friends, no Federal Taxation whatsoever -- voluntary “user fees” and the like to fund a Government even smaller in extent than that wondrously small Institution which the Founders bequeathed to us, lo, those many years ago. For some, the Tax question precedes the Expenditure question, arguing that it is imperative first that the Takings be reformed before the Spending be assaulted, so that at least we will have that war won already before we gird ourselves to battle the next one; others, myself included, feel that Spending must be attacked first and foremost to counter the underlying notion that we ought to be Taxing people to pay for these Unconstitutional programs at all. And the debates go ‘round and ‘round.
Meanwhile, while we work ourselves into a lather -- and I’m certainly as guilty as anyone -- debating our fellow Conservatives over the particular positives or negatives of ideas and reforms that, while each may have his individual favorite, any one of us would likely agree is at least superior to the current, status quo “creeping Socialism” of the present System, the Fabian Socialists of the Democratic Party and their whoring cohorts in the liberal Media continue to preach the same tired, Marxian sermon... over and over... repeating the Big Lie over and over into the mushy Body Politic of the Great American “Middle”, until it is accepted by the Sheeple -- consciously or unconsciously -- as Gospel: All Spending Cuts are Racist... Extremist... Dangerous... All Tax Cuts are Unsound... “for the Rich”... “balanced on the back of the Poor”...etc., etc., ad infinitum, and certainly ad nauseum. Even the “conservative-leaning” sheeple who might not accept such propositions in principle are led to believe them in practice, led away from their better discernment by the Serpent’s Whisper of the socialist Press: “Oh, sure, I’m not saying that all spending reforms are necessarily bad, but spreading out the EITC payments? Why that’s murder... Murder!... MURDER!!!”
In the end, one truism presents itself as axiomatic -- win your debates with your Conservative friends, but lose the Middle to the liberal Party line, and you will enjoy great intellectual satisfaction... but little policy success.
And the most irksome part of the whole deal is the fact that, even if you achieve Policy successes in enacting your preferred “solutions”... be it Tax Cuts, Spending Cuts, Tax Reform, or any other “Economic Conservative” pet issue, two things are certain: if it is a Conservative idea, the Press will ignore the successes, and emphasize, magnify, or even fabricate its alleged failings. In the end, the Liberals will employ “compassion” or “social justice” or even one of a variety of made-to-order “crises” and “emergencies” in order to invite the Socialism to creep back into the System, and whatever political heroes who succeeded in enacting the policies for which you fought so hard will be vilified and targeted for defeat in their Campaigns. Worse yet, it will probably have happened because, even while you appealed to the better instincts of the Sheeple in convincing them to support your ideas in the first place, you failed to educate them on why it was absolutely, permanently, always and forever in their best interest to see the Conservative program advanced and the Socialist program repudiated to the bowels of ideological hell for as long as the Republic shall live.
But wait, we say, we’re trying to educate the Sheeple! We’re writing letters to the editor, calling into opinion shows, even preaching from the sidewalks fer cryin’ out loud! Whaddya mean we aren’t educating the Sheeple? Well, my FReeper friends, I submit to you that, all too often, the best efforts along those lines are ultimately doomed to failure. And why?
Because it occurs to me that there comes a time for what is known as “tough love” - when education does not consist of writing finely worded discourses that appeal to such logical sensibilities as the Sheeple may possess, or composing poignant catch-phrases that pull at the Sheeple’s heartstrings... but consists rather of beating the Sheeple, mercilessly, brutally, in a constant and uncompromising fashion, until at last they see the error of their ways. Forcing the Uninformed Taxpayer Masses to open their eyes and see the Vice that they have allowed themselves to be placed in and turning the crank ever tighter until at last they scream out “No More! Go Back! Enough! Enough! ENOUGH!!!” In short, the Education which is required is not to convince the Sheeple Taxpayers to go along with the Conservative program because “it’s time for something better, and Conservatism is better for this-reason-or-that”, but rather to force upon them the injustice and indefensibility of the current regime until they are past their breaking point and then some, determined to overthrow the Nanny State and never return to its candied lies... Which is, of course, precisely where they need to be.
For at that point, the Sheeple will truly have learned. Not followed Conservatives, but become Conservatives.
And this is accomplished by inflicting pain where any Taxpayer can truly feel it: in the wallet.
You see, there’s a common problem from which all current Conservative Tax and Spending proposals suffer: whatever their respective Merits and Flaws, they are All, every one of them, actually -- if you can believe this -- designed to work. “Hey, look, the Flat Tax is Simple, Efficient, and Non-Intrusive! That’s great!” “Well, hey, I think that the National Sales Tax is even Simpler, more Efficient, and less Intrusive! That’s better still, right?” How stupid could we possibly be? Why on earth would we be coming up with “Non-Intrusive”, quiet, almost gentlemanly ways to feed the Federal Maw? With the Federal Government alone consuming nearly 25% of GDP, and the addition of State and Local Government largesse pushing the figure ever closer to 40%, why on earth would we want to reinforce in the mushy minds of the Sheeple the unforgivable Liberal Lie that Government ought to work?!? On the contrary, our foremost devotion should be to making them realize, making it inescapable for them to realize, that Government doesn’t Work, can’t Work, that Government is truly a Necessary Evil that was designed to accomplish Two Purposes: Killing enemies and Punishing bad people. Government was designed to Kill, and to Punish. It was never designed to “Work”. Any “Work” that Government does is accomplished by stealing the produce - the Work - of the Private Sector and re-arranging it in a less-efficient manner, while wasting some of the produce - the Taxpayer’s Work - along the way on graft, corruption, and fraud. And if you want the Taxpaying Sheeple to understand this, not in an intellectual fashion, but in a painful, undeniable, intuitive, and emotive fashion, you must bring home to them just how much of their Work is being stolen.
Ideas and Argumentation won’t do. We need to inflict Pain.
Which is why, whatever your preferred methodology of Conservative Policy Reforms, there is - In My Humble Opinion - one simplest, best way to get there. It carries no baggage of “helping the Rich”. It suffers no culpability for “hurting the Poor”. It enjoys the Virtues of simple Honesty and undeniable Sensibility. And best of all, it performs an “end run” around the Nanny State pabulum belched by the endless Liberal “opinion makers” by making a clear, incontrovertible, and most importantly painful Statement to the Taxpaying Sheeple without any opportunity for Press commentary when the statement is made... because it is made in the Taxpayer’s own home, by his own monthly budget that he or she must arrange themselves.
The Idea is Simple:
Eliminate Tax Withholding.
That’s right, don’t Cut Income taxes (yet)... don’t Reform Income taxes (yet)... Don’t Replace Income taxes (yet)... For Love of the Republic, Don’t do anything that would make the Tax System at all “Better”...Yet.
Just Eliminate Income Tax Withholding. And then let the Sheeple stew. Let them receive their whole Paycheck, all the gross, no FICA or Income Tax withholding or Medicare withholding whatsoever... at first. Let them have use of the money for the whole month after it is received. Then, require them to write a check for the Taxes owed, and file it with their Employer’s Payroll department (who are admirably equipped for this sort of thing, as Payroll departments perform the largest measure of Government Tax collection under the status quo). Make them sit down at their desk or kitchen Table and physically write a check, every single month, to those bums in Washington for every penny that Their Imperial Majesties require of the Servile Taxpayer.
And let’s see how long they stand for it.
Let them see the money, all of it, all the money that their Work has rightfully Earned, hold it in their hands, deposit in their bank account, and know that it is there... and then make them physically perform the act of surrendering a huge chunk of that Earned Wage to the Leviathan’s Maw.
And let’s see how long they stand for it.
Let them listen to every empty, lying, Socialist promise of how much “free” stuff their friendly Government will give them... and then physically perform the act of paying it.
And let’s see how long they stand for it.
Let’s force them to realize, in a constant, unavoidable fashion, that for many of them... of us... their Tax Bill consumes more of their income than Food, Clothing, and Housing combined.
And let’s see how long they stand for it.
Let them face the fact, every month, month after month, that they must physically write a check surrendering every dime that they have earned for the first week-and-a-half to two weeks out of that month, and face the knowledge -- every month -- that the IRS Gestapo will unleash their legal attack dogs if they fail to comply... or if their “Tax Check” should bounce...
And let’s see how long they stand for it.
The great thing about eliminating withholding is that it compromises no Conservative’s personal favorite “program” when it comes to downsizing Government... rather, it reinforces each and all of us. Hey Tax Cutters -- think the Sheeple, after writing away their hard-earned Gross down to a pitiful leftover “Net”, month after month, might be amenable to the idea of making that Tax Check as small as possible? Hey Flat Taxers -- think the Sheeple, after fighting their way through the Tax Code and seeing the unjust and nonsensical “Tax Creep” that directly attacks their work ethic whenever they earn a little more, month after month, might be screaming for a Tax Code that actually made sense? Hey National Sales Taxers -- think maybe, after a few months of receiving their whole paycheck, and then having to surrender a huge chunk of it, you might find some sympathetic ears for a Tax System that actually let them keep it?
Most of all, after a few months, or a year, of having to surrender 35 - 50% of their working paycheck -- not having it taken out quietly, behind the scenes, under the table; but rather having to physically surrender their Earned Wage -- Do you think the Taxpaying Sheeple, en masse, might demand of Conservatives that they downsize Government in a “radical, extremist” fashion... and please for the love of mercy hurry up about it, we’re dying out here!!! And when the cutting... as much as possible, please, is at last complete...Let’s never, ever go back and we are sorry - boy are we sorry - that we ever let the “Progressives” lead us astray!!!
I’m in favor of Efficient Taxation. I’m in favor of Non-Intrusive Taxation. And most of all, I’m in favor of LOW Taxation. But frankly, we Conservatives have cast our pearls before swine for too long. Frankly, the mushy-middle, “soccer mom” Sheeple don’t deserve us, and it’s time we stopped “wooing” them. We’re in the majority -- for now -- let’s use it. Let’s use it to cause the Taxpaying Sheeple some real pain. Or more specifically, to yank the blinders from their eyes, show them in real, undeniable, constant, painful fashion, just how much of their Work is being Stolen now, just how Right Our ideas can be and just how Wrong the Left’s ideas already are, and how it is merely being hidden from them, and why it is time for honesty... and high time for Revolution.
Eliminate Tax Withholding.
And let the Sheeple come begging to Us.
Heh Heh -- that would be waaaay kewl!!
It could even be sold as an "improvement" since the gov't would get a check every month, instead of four times a year (or once a year). Less interest gets credited to the Sheeple, and more to the Gov't.
This will be difficult to pass. Any idea how to lobby for it?
...For at that point, the Sheeple will truly have learned. Not followed Conservatives, but become Conservatives.
Sorry, but your little bit or condescension called a halt to any further reading for the same reason that your continued use of that term is not appreciated by ordinary carbon life forms. Stop being so damn patronizing and see whether people will give you a listen.
"This will be difficult to pass. "
The understatement of the century. Difficult as in "impossible".
And of course, the leftists would bludgeon anyone who voted for it unmercifully in the next election...and use it to sweep to victory.
But don't worry...there is not a Republican alive with enough spine to vote for such a measure.
--Boris
Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple Sheeple !!!!!!!!1
I curse every two weeks when I see how much they steal. To me it is as bad a writing a check to the b@$t@rd$. If you take my net income every two weeks and separately add the net witholdings together, the witholding sum is larger than a two week net pay. I'm mad now just thinking about it. I always enjoy Apr. 15, my stockpile, er....I mean surplus, of reloaded ammo increases dramatically. It's fun pulling the press handle while spouting off colorful expletives. Great stress relief....cheaper than a shrink too. Makes the neighbors nervous but who cares.
Interesting. Your goal of awakening the sheeple to what they're paying is the right track. BTW, there's a bill in congress right now, HB 2525, that would do that. It also eliminates withholding. Folks WOULD get 100% of their paychecks. Folks WOULD see the tax they pay on every receipt of taxable items. HB 2525 is a national retail sales tax. Check out HB 2525 at fairtax.org
Good to see you on this track, Uriel1975.
Screw you. How's that for condescending/patronizing?
You know what? I'm in a crappy mood too, Uriell. I'm sick and tired of preaching the evils of expansionist government and the ills of exorbitant tax rates and getting blank stares in response. Most people DO NOT EVEN LOOK AT THE PAY STUB with the witholding information on it.
People have got to be confronted with the reality of the extent and reach of the tax man's bite. Once the 60% or so of us that actually PAY federal income taxes see the monthly reality, there may be a chance for REAL tax reform.
HB 2525 (Linder-Ga & Peterson-MN among others) eliminates withholding! Check out HB 2525. Fairtax.org!
Bump, and also check out: here and here.
BTTT to load thread...
"Just Eliminate Income Tax Withholding...let them receive their whole Paycheck, all the gross, no FICA or Income Tax withholding or Medicare withholding whatsoever...then, require them to write a check for the Taxes owed."
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Ronald Reagan adopt this technique as governor of California? Eliminate withholding of state income tax, thereby forcing tax payers to write a check.
And, as I recall, that move forced reform of the California state tax system.
Somebody from California...help!
And BTW, boris, the HB 2525 has as many dem sponsors as repubs. I think it WILL pass. It's time has come. I urge you to check it out.
Play poker, Quit work, Sleep 'til noon. Ask me how!
Stop being so damn patronizing and see whether people will give you a listen.
I couldn't care less if they do listen. Put someone in the position of having to physically write a check and pay, every month, for the Government's never-ending largesse, and they'll come around to my point of view sooner rather than later.
But I will apologize if I gave offense. Perhaps you'd be so good as to hold your nose and read past the "Sheeple" phrasing and speak to the idea?
A lot of us have variable incomes, week to week. I have to verify each paycheck to see if I got paid for all the hours I worked. I have my nose rubbed in it, every pay period, of what goes to taxes and fees. People are afraid to look, in my opinion, at what comes out. My only hope is that taxes will someday grow so big that everybody will notice. Then we may have a revolution.
Bump. I can't believe how people talk about "getting money" from the government at tax refund time. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Make them understand that it is their money to begin with.
Eliminate Tax Withholding.
In addition to writing a check to the IRS, let us write separate checks to Social Security and Medicare - just for good measure. I thought about the same idea, myself. The whole conversation of taxes would be turned on its head. Instead of talking about how the money should be spent, people will talk about how taxes should be cut - brilliant, not politically expedient, but brilliant.
I recognize that elimination of withholding is part of the "Sales Tax" program, but I think that puts the cart before the horse in terms of "selling" it. Why sell the whole program, against constant Media interference, when by just eliminating withholding you'll succeed in making a lot of folks angry enough to LOOK and LISTEN to Conservative programs a lot more closely than the current, "painless" System encourages them to do? This piece wasn't about the particular form of the Final Product, but about the "selling"... shaking the Sheeple Taxpayer class out of their apathy long enough to listen to the proposals.
...Most people DO NOT EVEN LOOK AT THE PAY STUB with the witholding information on it...
Anyone who needs to look at a pay stub needs a new line of work.
Now that is patronizing and insulting.
Don't start; I've had years of experience.
No.
99-11 |
No Pain, Government
Gains The Conservative Case Against Good Government By Michael K. Block and Robert J. Franciosi |
Now, as we prepare to file our income taxes, Americans are especially reminded of the burden of big government. About this time we hear also from reformers who promise to make the annual payment of tribute to Uncle Sam a little less of an ordeal. Flat taxers promise an income tax form the size of a postcard. Backers of a national sales tax maintain that it will make the much-feared IRS extinct. Both these proposals are backed chiefly by people with solid conservative credentials; people who believe in the principle of a small government with limited powers. However, if you want a smaller government, do you really want a more efficient tax system? It could be that a burdensome, inefficient tax system, one that causes taxpayers to hiss loudly every time they are plucked, is a substantial impediment to bigger government. In other words, make paying taxes less irritating, and people won’t mind paying a little more. Ronald Reagan knew this. As governor of California he opposed the withholding of state income taxes because he believed paying taxes ought to be painful. Certainly, the present tax system is inefficient. It contains disincentives to work, save and invest. It subsidizes consumption of certain goods and penalizes the consumption of others. Economists estimate that to raise an additional $100 in revenue would destroy from $17 to $56 due to disincentives and distortions. One estimate puts the marginal economic damage from the individual income tax at $1 for $1 in added revenue! And this is only lost wealth. It does not count the money we transfer every year to accountants and tax lawyers. Broad-based taxes with only a few rates and no loopholes have fewer disincentives and distortions, are less trouble to pay—and are basically ATMs for politicians. The taxes we pay for social insurance, Social Security and Medicare, are good examples. They are flat taxes on labor earnings with no deductions. Since the 1950s, the federal government has collected between 7 and 10 percent of GDP with the income tax. The amount has fluctuated, but there has been no major trend. However, during that same time, the amount collected from social insurance taxes has climbed steadily from around 2 percent to near 7 percent of GDP, a 300 percent increase. Nobel Prize winning economist Gary Becker and his colleague Casey Mulligan have found evidence supporting the proposition that more efficient tax systems lead to bigger governments. Their cross-nation study found countries that have more efficient taxes, that is fewer loopholes, disincentives and distortions, have larger governments. Becker and Mulligan estimate that government growth caused by tax reform can reduce the expected benefits by 75 percent, or even cause a net increase in economic harm. The same logic that works for the input side, holds for the output side as well. If an exasperating tax system causes resistance to bigger government, poor government services can reduce the demand for government action. The longer the lines, the more complex the paperwork, the surlier the person behind the counter, the less people will want to deal with government. This opens to question conservative support for good government measures such as contracting out. Of course this argument should not be taken to the extreme. There are core functions, like the protection of life and property, where government efficiency is vital. And tax systems can become so inefficient that they require reforming. However, when conservatives offer their good government remedies, they should be careful. It may be that these solutions are penny-wise but pound—possibly several pounds—foolish.
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Note: Nothing written here is to be construed as necessarily reflecting the views of the Goldwater Institute or as an attempt to aid or hinder the passage of any legislation. Permission to reprint is granted provided credit is given to the author and the Goldwater Institute. |
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I like this idea, but I’d like to add something to it. Instead of just writing the government a check, why not have the government send an itemized bill to each taxpayer showing how money was spent last month – sort of like a credit card bill. Then not only would people know what they are spending, they would know what they are buying
I also deeply resent how some folks on this forum refer to the American people has Sheeple. I stop complaining months ago, but I still don't like it. Good post.
What taxation does the u s Constitution lawfully permit? Let's start from scratch with the whole thing and start over - Constitutionally. We'll form a 'communist-American-zone' comprised of Tennessee, Kentucky, VA, W VA, Maryland, and Pennsylvania, with a huge wall - and they can do whatever they want inside the walls, so long as it's inside the walls. (for the record, I know the answer:)
The united states of America and the socialists of America.
This will be difficult to pass. Any idea how to lobby for it?
Sure... write in a provision that "allows" Taxpayers to defer that month's Tax Check if they can clearly demonstrate it was immediately and concurrently needed for emergency medical care. That makes it immediately "saleable" - "Hey, it's just a way of allowing Taxpayers... and oh, yeah, 'the working poor'... a little extra, temporary 'health insurance' if they should absolutely need the money before the Taxes come due at the end of each month. How could you mean old Dems be against that?"
And once it's enacted, the pot of taxpayer disgust at just how much we are actually paying really starts to boil...
If you want to start over, get people angry. If you want them angry, show them just how much they are really paying... and show them often.
The more I read this, the more I love it.
...I couldn't care less if they do listen...
Well now, that would most certainly have a chilling effect on constructive dialogue.
...But I will apologize if I gave offense.
You didn't offend me; I am not your audience. You do offend people by calling them sheeple particularly if you want them to listen to you and give your ideas consideration.
When you just yell at people and call them stupid they have a strong urge to ignore you after they have beaten you senseless.
Now, do you and 'arcane' get my point?
I curse every two weeks when I see how much they steal. To me it is as bad a writing a check to the b@$t@rd$.
Some... many... don't even really pay all that much attention.
Now make them write a check.
GOP and Libertarian voter registration goes through roof, Dems reduced to begging on street corner...
I understand what you are saying, but this is intended - in this form - for conservative consumption on a conservative website. "Sheeple" just takes a lot less time to type than "Uniformed Taxpayers who don't really look at their paycheck tax-stubs and try not to think about it..."
As long as politicians can use their elective positions to bride the voters with bigger and more costly socialistic programs, taxes and their enslaving repucussions will continue to flourish.
Yesterday on a thread related Patrick Buchanan someone posted a picture of Hitler with his arm raised in the Nazi salute captioned if you support Buchanan raise your arm. This post created heated debate and the poster was barred from this site. While following this debate, I was struck how emotional such a charge could be and began wondering how this could be used constructively. Ideas included signs or billboards having that picture with the caption "If you support national socialism raise your arm" or "If you support gun control raise your arm". Both of these captions are well grounded in fact since "Nazi" was German slang for National Socialists and the Nazis were the ultimate in gun control.
At Hillary rallies we could raise our arms and shout "Heil Hillary" to the foremost national socialist.
People have got to be confronted with the reality of the extent and reach of the tax man's bite. Once the 60% or so of us that actually PAY federal income taxes see the monthly reality, there may be a chance for REAL tax reform.
Bingo. This is politics. You learn how to discredit and undermine the evil Left and you DO IT.
Why sell the whole program, against constant Media interference, when by just eliminating withholding you'll succeed in making a lot of folks angry enough to LOOK and LISTEN
You make an excellent point here, Uriel. My thinking is that it doesn't go far enough. I want to mke folks aware of their tax burden AND I want to eliminate withholding, the entire income tax and eliminate the IRS!. There is a bill RIGHT NOW in congress that would do this!
HB 2525 has been introduced and does eliminate withholding, does force individuals to see the tax they pay. My assertion is that HB 2525 would make a lot of folks angry enough to force the pols to react and lower taxes. Further, HB 2525 eliminates the income tax, eliminates (defunds) the IRS, eliminates the estate and gift tax, and eliminates corporate income taxes. Even better, goods manufacture in US would leave at price levels 30% lower than now and goods coming in would be assessed a 23% tax, making aabout a 53% advantage for us firms.
As long as politicians can use their elective positions to bride the voters with bigger and more costly socialistic programs, taxes and their enslaving repucussions will continue to flourish.
Only when the "payment" is Quiet and Hidden. Make the payment for Government largesse a painful, monthly reality, and see Socialism shrivel.
One more link I dug out (and subsequent bump): Chapter 1 of Schaels book.
Make the payment for Government largesse a painful, monthly reality, and see Socialism shrivel.
You hit the nail on the head. I wish you would see how an NRST like HB 2525 would do this.
You make an excellent point here, Uriel. My thinking is that it doesn't go far enough. I want to mke folks aware of their tax burden AND I want to eliminate withholding, the entire income tax and eliminate the IRS!. There is a bill RIGHT NOW in congress that would do this!
Fine. If you can get it done on the first try, good for you. IF NOT, consider the virtues of eliminating withholding first and see if getting a lot more people a lot more angry at the current system would help your cause.
In truth, I would still like to eliminate withholding before subsequent reform. I don't want to just "wean" the Sheeple onto a "Better" tax system, I first want to make darn good and certain that they are FURIOUS at the Old.
It's not just about you or I winning our "pet" Reform. It's about making the Taxpayer so angry at the current theft that they never want to even consider going back.
It was one of his campaign planks on his run for governor of California, but he could never get the legislatures to go for it, and grudgingly adopted a 'voluntary' (yeah right) withholding. I think it was 1970.
BTW, thanks for the posts and the great links. Big FReeper kudos.
My only hope is that taxes will someday grow so big that everybody will notice. Then we may have a revolution.
"They" will notice now if you make them pay, by check, every month. And they will soon be upset.
Your advocacy of a national sales tax is admirable, and perhaps even convincing for those of us who realize just how stifling the current tax rate and system are.
What Uriell is advocating is a step towards the real possiblity of acheiving your goal. We simply can't get through the media interference and democratic class warfare rhetoric until we can demonstrate in a powerful, wordless way, the nefarious impact of federal taxation on working folks' bottomline. Eliminating witholding is a way to do just that. The dems won't be able to complain that this is unfair or "not revenue neutral" since it wouldn't change the rates at all.
I think this is a great idea.
"Sheeple" in this article was not intended to address all Americans. It was meant to refer to "Uninformed Taxpayers who don't really pay attention to their tax-stubs and try not to think about it", which just takes too long to type.
"Shepple" is hardly the greatest of additions to American slang, but it served to save space...
"Sheeple" in this article was not intended to address all Americans. It was meant to refer to "Uninformed Taxpayers who don't really pay attention to their tax-stubs and try not to think about it", which just takes too long to type.
"Sheeple" is hardly the greatest of additions to American slang, but it served to save space...
My "pet reform" IS to make the people angry and force action. This is one of the main reasons that I support HB 2525.
BTW, why don't you help it pass? It would light a fire under our butts as to the tax we pay, and would thus force spending reductions. And it does so much more.
That being said, if you get a bill before congress that eliminates withholding, you've got 110% of my support.
HB 2525 eliminates withholding, I support it 110%.
What Uriell is advocating is a step towards the real possiblity of acheiving your goal. We simply can't get through the media interference and democratic class warfare rhetoric until we can demonstrate in a powerful, wordless way, the nefarious impact of federal taxation on working folks' bottomline. Eliminating witholding is a way to do just that. The dems won't be able to complain that this is unfair or "not revenue neutral" since it wouldn't change the rates at all. I think this is a great idea.
Again, bork, precisely. I don't want the Uninformed Taxpayer (I'll try and stop using the phrase "sheeple", I guess...) to "go along" with Conservative Reform 'cause we convince them "hey, this sounds like it might be a kinda better idea"... I want them begging for Massive Cuts and Massive Reforms because they have seen and held in their hands just how much the current system robs them of every month and they are furious about it. I don't want to have to "sell" them the Flat Tax or the NRST... I want them choking down their disgust, every month when they have to write that enormous Tax Check... until they are begging Conservatives to please enact our Reforms out of the goodness of our Conservative hearts, and they never want to go back.
No, you clearly do not understand what I am saying. Even when you are speaking to others who may hold similar views regarding politics they may not all believe the same policies are all as important as do you. They may also not have the depth of understanding of the question.
You insult people by yelling at them even when they agree with most of what you are yelling. But you see, that is rabble rousing. This site does not need rabble.
We will not come to terms on this so I'll drop my crusade at this point...and just wizz by any of your posts. That'll show you.
Your enthusiasm is certainly catching, Uriel1975! I hope we can see the end of withholding. As I said, if a bill comes up that eliminates withholding, I support it fully. Of course, HB 2525 does eliminate withholding...so I support it.
That being said, if you get a bill before congress that eliminates withholding, you've got 110% of my support.
All I could ask for. That said, the reason I don't support the NRST outright -- even at the much lower rates that such massive cuts would encourage, thus reducing any economic negatives of Consumption Taxation -- is that I still romanticize the idea of going back to a very Limited-Constitutional system of "excises, duties, imposts" and "taxes apportioned among the States... according to the actual Enumeration or Census"...
That being said as well, I think that making taxpayers write a check every month and see their tax dollars physically taken from there accounts would engender enough Taxpayer anger for whatever your preferred Tax Reform is...
That being said, if you get a bill before congress that eliminates withholding, you've got 110% of my support.
All I could ask for. That said, the reason I don't support the NRST outright -- even at the much lower rates that such massive cuts would encourage, thus reducing any economic negatives of Consumption Taxation -- is that I still romanticize the idea of going back to a very Limited-Constitutional system of "excises, duties, imposts" and "taxes apportioned among the States... according to the actual Enumeration or Census"...
That being said as well, I think that making taxpayers write a check every month and see their tax dollars physically taken from their accounts would engender enough Taxpayer anger for whatever your preferred Tax Reform is...
Keep after it Uriel. I gotta run. We'll have either a "no withholding" law or the Fair Tax by 2001 if we've got anything to say about it!
Is that you on the left up there, harryrump?
Okay, I'm missing your point, and I'm willing to admit it. I ask the following question with hopes you will take care to explain your views to me, I am interested in them:
How does my use of the phrase "sheeple" as a substitute for "Uninformed Taxpayer" tend to drive off Conservatives who might not have a "full depth of understanding on the issue"? I've seen the phrase used for months, and at times I think it is poorly applied (i.e., anyone who doesn't vote for xyz candidate), but it generally doesn't detract from my reading of the poster's views... If you think I am blundering past understanding here, I do welcome the critique...?
Let’s use it to cause the Let’s use it to cause the Taxpaying Sheeple some real pain.
I and a bunch of others already do. About 2 years ago, the GAO reported 49 million irs non-filers; 44 million were not required to file. YOU Taxpaying Sheeple get to cough up enough to cover what we don't "contribute."
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. A-greed-e-gubmint-that-would-commit-suicide-first. Agreed?
Anectdotes wanted; if you ask people, randomly, if they paid any taxes last year, discover how many say "I didn't pay any - I got a refund!"
These people should not be allowed to vote. Or waste oxygen for that matter. Ebuzz
Bump.
Harrowup's harrangue on your use of the term "sheeple" is just a distraction technique.
He, and other liberals like him, don't want to confront your idea on its merits and would rather attack your style of communicating it.
FWIW, I agree with you that this is a conservative forum, and while some respectfully dissent, use of the term is fairly widespread. Candidly, in my darker moments, I think the term is fairly apt.
In any event, BUMP for a great idea.
BTTT to load thread...
I and a bunch of others already do. About 2 years ago, the GAO reported 49 million irs non-filers; 44 million were not required to file. YOU Taxpaying Sheeple get to cough up enough to cover what we don't "contribute."
To each his own. I'm sure you can agree that having to write the IRS a check every month would make a lot of people angry enough that the direct Federal Taxation of individuals might eventually... who knows, even quickly... lapse into the dustbin of history.