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This is in part a Vanity Post.
To be perfectly honest I wish I did not feel compelled to do this in this fashion but I can think of no proper way to accomplish what I feel I need to do.
Last night on two threads, McCain Leads in South Carolina - Zogby and Corrupt McCain:Please Post Evidence of McCain's Corruption Here! I, in a calculated and even vicious manner, launched personal attacks against posters on Free Republic. I knowingly did so in violation of our benefactor's, Jim Robinson, rules.
It was wrong of me to do so. I offer no excuse. I lost my temper and made some very disparaging remarks that impugned the characters of people I do not even know. That in and of itself was wrong.
For AAPATRIOT, katze, and ravingnutter I offer my most humble apologies. I had no right to "launch" on you in the manner I did and for that, I am quite embarrassed and sorry.
For Jim Robinson, and the rest of the readers of the forum that read my rants, I likewise offer my sincere apologies.
In the process I also said some extremely vile and unkind things about another American citizen I know little about, ex-Green Beret Ted Sampley. The clumny I heaped on him is perhaps the worst and will be the toughest to attempt to ammend. I will try.
Eating a huge dose of humble pie is difficult to swallow at best.
The bite even gets harder to swallow.
In my continued zeal not to believe any of the allegations that have been swirling around this forum concerning Senator McCain and his military service I set out to gather information that would refute those allegations and clear him of any suspicions concerning his service to his country. I was motivated in that we both served in a losing and unpopular war and whereas I returned with all appendages attached, he remained behind as a POW for 5 ½ years. I could not and still can't remotely imagine what that was at all like.
However, in my research not only could I not find evidence to support a basis for my personal attacks on the above individuals; I came across information that tends to support the contention that claims made on his behalf of Hero status may indeed be exaggerated.
Part of me wants to believe that he is indeed a hero for just surviving and coming home with a patritotic desire to continue serving a nation that for the most part turned its back upon veterans. The reality is that he is not a hero in the likeness of Admiral John Stockdale, LTC. Leo K. Thorsness, whom I know personally, and many others.
In my search, I contacted Col. David Hackworth directly. Here is a copy of the letter I sent him followed by his reply.
Subject:
John McCain - Hero or Not
Date:
Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:32:49 -0600
From:
Greg Adams
Organization:
To:
teagles@hackworth.com
Dear Col. Hackworth,
I am in the middle of very heated argument with some people that quote a
fellow named Ted Sampley, who alleges that Senator McCain was a traitor
while he was a POW for 5 1/2 years.
As a RVN vet I find these accusations abhorrent and I am looking for any
information that would refute those allegations. I don't support
Senator McCain in his bid for the GOP nomination but I hate to see folks
drag his service through the mud, if it isn't true. I do recall reading
something written by Admiral James Stockdale that spoke of Senator
McCains time as a POW in glowing terms.
Can you offer me any help in obtaining the information I seek.
Thank you sir,
Greg Adams
Here is the prompt and unexpected response I received from Col. Hackworth.
Subject:
Re: John McCain - Hero or Not
Date:
Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:47:18 +0000
From:
David Hackworth
To:
Greg Adams
"Go to www.hackworth.com Defending America Archives and click and then go
to 2000 and click on the McCain piece...
McCain has clay feet and it will all come out real soon. I only scratched
the top. here are just a couple of the THIS Is The Real McCain Stories I
have been getting:
At 10:09 PM 01/26/2000 EST, you wrote:
Hello Col:
I was one of John McCain's flight instructors in the Navy's Advanced Training
Command at Corpus Christi Texas, circa 1960. I have passed this story to
many of my friends and I share it with you, willingly.
LTjg McCain was positively one of the weakest students to pass our way, and
received consistently poor marks, and a number of Dangerous Down grades,
assigned by more than one instructor. He had no real ability and was clearly
out of his element in an airplane, and way over his head, even as a junior
naval officer. His fathers and grandfathers influence kept him in the
training pipeline, even though he was better fit for an alternate profession.
In his book, "Faith of my Fathers," he briefly mentions an incident wherein
he escaped from an aircraft whose engine had failed. Well, there is much
more to that story than he had had the courage to reveal. What really happene
d is known only to John, but by my witness he flew an AD Skyraider into
Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings that would prepare him to land
on an aircraft carrier. I was only a few seconds behind him in the traffic
pattern, being an airborne "chase" instructor, while two of my squadron mate
instructors were coaching students from the end of the runway via radio.
We always flew with our canopy open in the landing pattern as a safety
precaution, but McCain had his closed, in that it was cool (40 degrees) and
light rain showers around the field. It was also a Saturday morning, and I
suspect he was recovering from too much whoopee on Friday night.
Despite repeated radio transmissions from the instructors, McCain flew the
machine into the water, where it sank immediately in 35 ft of water. He
surfaced within a minute of the crash and was recovered by a crash boat that
was stationed nearby. The aircraft was retrieved by crane and barge and was
in the hangar for inspection within two hours. It was evident that McCain
had exited the aircraft unusually, in that he had cut a hole in the canopy
with his survival knife, thereby allowing him to swim free. He ignored the
four other "normal"means of opening the canopy, which were: 1 Hydraulically,
via a highly visible handle in the cockpit which allowed 3,000# of hydraulic
pressure, stored in an accumulator, to open it normally; 2 By moving this
handle one inch past it's normal open position, he could have used the
emergency open system, which used 1,000# of compressed air in a bottle,
designed for just this purpose, to blow it open. 3, There were four
explosive bolts that would literally blow the canopy free of the aircraft,
even underwater, that were activated by a guarded switch on the left side of
the cockpit console. 4, the canopy could always be opened manually, by
placing the opening lever in Neutral, and hauling the thing open by muscle
power. Three handles were installed for that purpose. I recite this only as
some evidence that he was not thinking clearly, and probably fell asleep
while at the controls.
The engine was removed from the aircraft that afternoon, mounted on a test
stand, a new propellor installed, flushed with fresh water, and started. It
ran just fine. So, he theory of engine failure was proven false, on the spot.
He was awarded another Dangerous Down (his third) and was sent to the Navy
Admiral (RADM Joe Clifton) in charge of Advanced Training for disposition.
The Admiral told us to "fly him," and we did. He was given his wings the
following week, after a very poor performance aboard the Training Aircraft
Carrier, the USS Antietam, in the Gulf of Mexico. Normal qualifications
require six arrested landings. Mr McCain made two, and was sent back to
Corpus Christi as a precaution against wrecking the flight deck of the ship.
Well, you know the rest of the story.
I am convinced that McCain is an opportunist, and yes, I regret his time as a
POW. However, it was a self inflicted wound in my view, and a tough payback
for being "given" his wings, instead of earning them like the rest of us.
I especially liked your piece regarding all the awards and medals he has
accumulated. It just prostitutes the entire awards system, which I guess
doesn't matter to him.
If you would like some authentication of the foregoing, I suggest you visit
the Naval Aviation Museum, in Pensacola Fla. Therein, you will find two
unique displays. One is a replica of the aircraft that George Bush flew in
WW2, and near it is a display of all his flight training grades, which were
uniformly excellent. Near by is a replica of John McCain's aircraft, same as
the one he was hot down in over Hanoi. Near by is a glass case displaying
his dress uniform and all his medals. However, no one would dare display his
grades!
I too am a Vietnam era vet, and flew 221 combat sorties from the USS
Constellation, 1968-70. Prior to that I had some staff jobs that put me on
the ground in SEASIA, and gave me a strong sense that I was glad to be flying
over that territory, rather than on the ground.
Warm regards to a real Patriot sir,
Ralph Poore
At 08:13 PM 01/27/2000 EST, you wrote:
I was a civilian POW in Vietnam from 1968-73, and held in South Viet Nam,
Cambodia, Laos and North Viet Nam. I spent 27 months in solitary
confinement, of which most of a year was in a black box (a brick SH with the
inside walls painted black), and one year in a cage. After release in
Operation Homecoming in 1973, I was often asked about the conduct of other
POWs. My response then, as it is today, is that each man has his own
breaking point. As the old saying goes, "Don't judge another `till you've
walked a mile in their moccasins. After our return, at times I was called a
hero. My answer then, as it is today, is that we, the returned POWs, are not
heroes; we are just survivors.
The heroes are the ones who gave their all, and their names are etched on
that somber black granite wall called the Vietnam Memorial. The heroes are
those who never came home and are still POWs in some God forsaken hole. The
heroes are the ones who lost part of their bodies from the ravages of war.
The heroes are those that still suffer from the horrors of war. The heroes
are the mothers, the wives, the children or families who still wait to find
out the fate of their love ones. No we are not the heroes, we are just
survivors.
Is John McCain a hero? No he is just a survivor like the rest of us. I
respect John for the pain and suffering he went through as a POW. I respect
John, as I do the other POWs, for surviving the depravity of incarceration by
the brutal communist Vietnamese. Is John McCain a hero because he "made the
moral choice not to take an early release? No, John McCain is not a hero
for doing this for he was just following orders from the Senior Ranking
Officers in the camp. John was doing no more, nor no less, that every
service person does several times each day. He was just following orders.
For those of you who have seen the movie about the POWs "Return with Honor,"
at the beginning you would have heard the SROs state that they gave the order
that no one was to take an early release. John McCain is not a hero for
making that choice, for he was just following orders. John McCain is no more
of a hero that the rest of the POWs who stayed to the last, and were released
in 1973.
I salute and have a special reverence in my heart for those POWs who were
Medal of Honor recipients, as I do for my former SRO Col. Ted Guy who
resisted to the last, for they are much, much closer to being my kind of
heros than JSM. Michael Benge 10/5/99
Joe L. Jordan" wrote:
Hon Richard Danzig
U.S. SECRETARY OF THE NAVY
1000 Navy Pentagon
Washington DC 20350-1000
Dear Secretary Danzig:
We are adding our voice to the chorus of veteran's groups calling for
the combat decorations of Senator John McCain to be revoked. National
newspaper columns by Col. David Hackworth and former Green Beret
Ted Sampley have pointed out that to get the Silver Star and other
decorations, the sworn testimony of two witnesses is required. Why
were these requirements waived only for Senator Mccain and his 28
medals?
Is it because he is the son of a 4-star Admiral?
The medals awarded are questionable in themselves as they reward
mcCain for his alleged "Outstanding resistance" while a prisoner of
war(POW) in Hanoi. McCain has admitted he collaborated and gave vital
secrets about the Aircraft Carriers Oriskany and Forrestal in order
to get a hospital operation for wounds he received when he ejected.
Mccain was still signing "War criminal confessions" and making radio
broadcasts to American pilots and soldiers urging them to surrender
and refuse orders to fight five years after his wounds healed.
Also, returned POWs USAF Colonels Larson and Guy say they doubt
McCain was ever tortured at any time in any way. McCain returned from
captivity weighing 10 pounds heavier than when captured. There is a
picture of him eating a large meal in the Foreign Ministry where he
allowed himself to be interviwed for a newspaper article he knew would
be published in Havana. He was wearing a jogging suit under his prison
pajamas. No other returned POW said they received hospital surgery,
got a jogging suit for the cold winter or had a big meal in the
Foreign Ministry. So much for McCain's "Outstanding Resistance in
Keeping with the Navy's Highest Traditions"!
Secretary Danzig, from your window you can gaze over Arlington National
Cemetary full of real heroes and brave men who earned their medals
the hard way, the honest way and we owe these men our highest regards
and respect. To allow John McCain to keep his is a travesty and a
desecration to all veterans everywhere living and dead. McCain's
posession of these medals renders my own worthless.
We demand a full investigation of this matter as to why strict Navy
Regulations were flagrantly violated and that his medals be returned
to your desk pending the outcome of the investigation.
Joe L. Jordan
Navy Squadron VQ-1(Ret.)
147 missions over NVN 67-68
Stay tuned and don't buy into bios written by Flaks on McCain's staff. Hack" I went to the referenced article. You may view the article in its' original from at http://www.hackworth.com/25jan00.html.
DEFENDING AMERICA
BY DAVID H. HACKWORTH
ARE McCAIN'S HANDLERS PLAYING THE WRONG CARD?
John McCain is being hailed by the press as a "genuine war hero." But is he a war hero in the conventional sense like Audie Murphy and John Glenn?
Or is his "war hero" status the creation of a very slick publicity campaign that plays on flag, duty, honor and country?
For sure, McCain has the fruit-salad -- a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars , two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service gongs.
On a purely medal count basis, he out-weighs Murphy and Glenn, who both for years repeatedly performed extraordinary deeds on the ground or in the air against an armed enemy.
McCain's valor awards are based on what happened in 1967, when during his 23d mission over Vietnam, he was shot down, seriously injured, captured and then spent 5 1/2 brutal years as a POW.
In an attempt to find out exactly what the man did to earn these many hero awards, I asked his Senate office three times to provide copies of the narratives for each medal. I'm still waiting.
I next went to the Pentagon. Within a week, I received a recap of his medals and many of the narratives that give the details of what he did.
None of the awards, less the DFC, were for heroism over the battlefield -- where he spent no more than 20 hours. Two Naval officers described the awards as "boilerplate" and "part of an SOP medal package given to repatriated (Vietnam-era) POWs."
McCain's Silver Star narrative for the period 27 October 1967 -- the day after he was shot down -- to 8 December 1968 reads: "His captors… subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through his resistance to those brutalities, he contributed significantly towards the eventual abandonment…" of such harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese.
Yet in McCain's own words just four days after being captured, he admits he violated the U.S. Code of Conduct by telling his captors "O.K, I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."
A Vietnam vet detractor says, "He received the nation's third highest award, the Silver Star, for treason. He provided aid and comfort to the enemy!"
The rest of his valor awards -- issued automatically every year while he was a POW -- read much like the Silver Star. More boilerplate often repeating the exact same words. An example: "By his heroic endeavors, exceptional skill, and devotion to duty, he reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Naval Service and the United States Armed Forces."
Yet McCain's conduct while a POW negates these glowing comments. The facts are that he signed a confession and declared himself a "black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate." This statement and other interviews he gave to the Communist press were used as propaganda to fan the flames of the anti-war movement.
Accounts by McCain and other writers tell of the horror he endured: relentlessly beatings, torture, broken limbs. All inflicted during savage interrogations. Yet no other POW was a witness to these accounts.
A former POW says "No man witnessed another man during interrogations… We relied on each other to tell the truth when a man was returned to his cell."
The U.S. Navy says two eye-witnesses are required for any award of heroism. But for the valor awards McCain received, there are no eye-witnesses, less himself and his captors.
And they're not talking.
Our POWs in Vietnam were treated appallingly. The Viets would either break a POW or kill him. POWs provided info beyond name, rank and serial number or they didn't come back.
Based on these stalwart men's horrific experiences, the Code of Conduct has been changed. A POW says, "Now the training is to give them something… don't risk permanent damage to health, mind or body."
McCain refused an early release. An act of valor? Three former POWs told me he was ordered to turn it down by his U.S. POW commander and he "just followed orders."
McCain certainly doesn't appear to be a war hero by conventional standards, but rather a tough survivor whose handlers are overplaying the war hero card."
Again, for AAPATRIOT, katze, and ravingnutter, I won't blame you for not accepting my apology but it is sincerely offered. My sense of integrity demads I make the offer. I was wrong to attack you, each and everyone.
As for Senator McCain's service, I will not trash the man for what he did while in captivity, as I am not sure I would have done any better. I appreciate both his service and the fact that he survived. As Col. Hackworth pointed out only the Senator, his captors, and God know what the Senator endured.
For the McCain team, I would highly suggest they stop playing up the Hero stuff. If indeed as many people suggest, it is not the actual case; it will come back to haunt the Senator.
For those that oppose the Senator's bid for the Presidency, which includes me, I suggest we not drag him and his war record through the mud. The dirt will rub off on us as well. The chips will fall where they may. There is enough post Viet Nam information on the Senator that should spell his defeat in the Republican primaries.
[
Reply |
Private Reply | Top | Last ]
To the top for you to read.
You should read this as well.
I hope this doesn't totally fall into the Vantiy Post category.
Well done! And I salute you for doing it.
Definitely not a vanity. Thanks for the research and reporting. And I'm happy to see you making amends with the FReepers wounded in hot debate.
Bravo for the post! I must admit I admire your forthrightness.
My theory about McCain in N. Vietnam is this. Sure he was tortured with ropes. Everyone else was. But his POW career was like everything else he did in his Navy career, overall unusually incompetant, undistinguished, and self servingly dishonest.
McCain is supposed to have Republicans vote for him because he represents everything that is noble about the military in its resistance to Communism, the GOP congressen in their resistance to the Clintonites, and republicans in their standing up for principles. In reality he on close examination seems to stand for the absolute worst in each of these institutions and groups of people.
If this nation follows up Clinton with McCain, it seems to be to show how absolutely low it has sunk, probably beyond repair.
As an army wife for 28 years, I'm not about to discuss McCain's military record. No need to go back that far for reasons why I don't support him.
Food Stamps: In debates and speeches, McCain has expressed outrage that military families qualify for foodstamps. He's been a senator for 17 years, and military families have been on food stamps longer than that...with no outrage expressed from the grandstanding Senator McCain.
Quick Temper, Lack of Restraint: In one of the early debates, McCain was asked about the Pakistani terrorists hijacking an Indian plane. McCain didn't hesitate, he said he would have sent in commandos, so that when that plane stopped to refuel, he would have had it's tires shot out. I was flabbergasted no reporter criticized his mucho macho reckless stupidity. Even the Indians didn't risk their soldiers lives to stop the terrorists, but McCain didn't hesitate for a second before he said he would put American lives at risk to intervene in a totally foreign situation. The man speaks without thinking, evidently he would be another Clinton, sending troops all over the world in order to look tough. The man is dangerous.
Thanks Jim. I learned a long time ago to do the right thing, simply because it is the right thing. I make mistakes but my serenity and sanity demands doing all I can do to correct them.
"If this nation follows up Clinton with McCain, it seems to be to show how absolutely low it has sunk, probably beyond repair."
I agree but would add Gore or Bradley in the mix. I still want to defeat the Democrats in 2000 and beyond!
"The man is dangerous."
Absolutely correct. And I am quite sincere when I say I think it will be a mistake for any of his GOP contenders to hit him about his hyped military career. Let it come from outside campaign sources if it does. Even having learned what I have learned I still am loathe to use it against him. I won't judge him, but am sincere that should the allegations be 100% correct and his team continues to beat the Hero drum, it will come back to haunt him. I want him defeated, not destroyed in the process.
You folks are invited to comment on this as well, as you were kind to me in my ravings last night.
Apology is certainly accepted from me.......although I have to admit I never was really too upset by it because I thought the facts would prove to the readers(freepers) that there was evidence.....
McCain didn't hesitate, he said he would have sent in commandos, so that when that plane stopped to refuel, he would have had it's tires shot out.
Shoot out the tires?? LOL The guy sounds like a child playing pretend war.
How about when McCain calling for ground troops and a full invasion in Kosovo? Even way back then when he was thinking of running for President, when he called for that, I knew the guy was nuts.
Speaking only for myself, you not only showed class in your appology, you have provided a wealth of information. As UI have said here before, I thank God that I have not have to walk in his shoes, but he's running for president to cover the Clinton machine, and I don't by it
You are gracious. Thank you.
I am not totally in tune with your agenda, but it was wrong of me to attack you in the manner in which I did.
FreeRegards,
Greg Adams
aka ImpBill
Defeat Democrats in 2000 and beyond!
I can't really even say I was wounded either....the names were so extreme yet something made me laugh. I just felt like I was only being called names because McCain's actions just weren't defendable any other way. But I can understand how no vet wants to see another one dispairaged.... especially one who's respected as a "hero".
That was all such silly grandstanding, too. Every serious analysis I saw indicated it would have been months before we could have positioned forces for a ground attack on Yugoslavia, regardless of its morality or wisdom. Still, mcKeating served klintoon's purpose perfectly, by making him look judicious and restrained even as he committed mass murder, installed an Islamic extremist narco-terrorist government in the heart of Europe, ethnically cleansed 200,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies from Kosovo, and trashed the Constitution, the War Powers Act, the War Crimes Treaty, and the Nato and United Nations charters. No wonder mcLame was the only Republican invited to the impeached rapist's millenium f*ck-fest.
When you told me my prayer would somehow help you see the light you were being sarcastic.....but you were right......You saw the light!
Thank you for your research. My only comment is that whomever says McCain is a hero, it is not McCain himself, who adamantly disavows such an appellation. I have seen him say this on TV with my own eyes and ears. McCain's service in the military and capitivity are part of his life experience, and certainly relevant to consider. But no one should vote for him because he is some kind of "hero", as McCain will be the first to tell you.
McCain probably was a lousy pilot and should not have been allowed to fly. In capitivity he did better than some, but not nearly as well as those he himself declares are the real heros. I think he did his best; others may disagree.
What I do know is that fixating on McCain's military service as a disqualification for office is a bad political strategy for those that oppose him. Of that, I am quite sure.
One little Keating note. He was interviewed about the matter, and someone said, well you accepted all that money from him and then visited the regulators on his behalf, but he was also your personal friend unlike the other senators. Yes that is true McCain said, and the fact that I was his personal friend makes my conduct all the reprehensible, and it is a stain on my record with which I will have to live all my life.
The interviewer after that had no followup question, and moved on to other topics. Some find that candor appealing. Some find that appealing enough to support him despite ideological differences. I don't unless it is clear to me that McCain can beat Gore with a significantly higher probability than Bush. But there is something about McCain's style that is very compelling to many voters, and this voter in particular.
For those that oppose the Senator's bid for the Presidency, which includes me, I suggest we not drag him and his war record through the mud. The dirt will rub off on us as well. The chips will fall where they may. There is enough post Viet Nam information on the Senator that should spell his defeat in the Republican primaries.
Good Grief!! Last night I was rabidly and emotionally defending your defense of McCain and tonight I find myself applauding your attack on him.
You have great class impbill and a strength of character that is rare. And a mind that is not dull either.
I admire what you say tonight but don't be too hard on yourself. There are worse traits to have than than blind loyalty to a brother in arms. I was pretty swept away with the moment last night too and will tell you that you have been the best of show both nights.
Wow!
Very impressive apology and, even more
impressive, a great job of looking at your
opinions and beliefs
and CHANGING your mind to
match the facts that you found!
This is something that ALL of us out here in
Freeper land need to consider every time that
we do not like what we read...
Is what we believe
true? What are the FACTS? If the facts do not
agree with what we believe, then we must consider
changing our minds and admitting that we may be
wrong. Very few things are as difficult to do
as
that is.
Your support of a fellow vet is admirable.
Your willingness to challenge your own beliefs
is even more admirable.
You stood up for what/who you believed in,
and, when challenged, you found out the facts
and changed
your mind, then you came back shared
your findings, and apologized in the most public
of forums...
I am proud and privileged to have you as a
fellow Freeper, as this is what this forum is
really all about (IMHO): getting the facts and
making decisions based on those facts.
We would not be having problems with our "leaders"
if they showed just a fraction of this type of
integrity.
Thank you, ImpBill.
Thank You. I don't care for Senator McCain. I never have. In fact he really does frighten me. He is a loose cannon and I really can't understand why he is getting the support he is getting. Well, yes I do actually. A vast majority of the electorate is either un-informed or mis-informed. Kinda like I was about his service record. /;-)
I would hope all of the other GOP canidates would come together to point out the Senators political and personal flaws, but fear they won't. Forbes is the one that concerns me the most, as I think he seems to think that by mortally wounding Bush he can come in and then take care of McCain.
I trust Forbes about as much as I trust McCain. And yet I would have a much easier time voting for Forbes in the general election. Even as a true blue party regular, I just don't know if I could pull the lever for John McCain. I have stated and continue to feel that if McCain was the nominee it would really put my desire to defeat Democrats to it's most ardent test.
My only comment is that whomever says McCain is a hero, it is not McCain himself, who adamantly disavows such an appellation.
I suggest that you visit john mccain's web-site, www.mccain2000.com to disabuse yourself of this notion right away.
What was done and is still being done to the good Christian people will go done as a very shameful chapter in our history. Temperature is in the teens, cold as hell over there in Serbia and the people have no heat or electric. This is all because of Clinton's current embargo and previous bombing.
How do you feel about McCain, who is campaigning on "campaign finance reform" and never misses a chance to say how much soft money is ruining politics, having a HUGE fund raiser next Thursday in Washington where fully 2/3rds of the people invited are lobbyists who represent clients who have business before his committee?
Is he for it, or is it for it for other people? How many corporate jets can he fly on and still say it's not influencing him?
Thumbs up. Greg!
Well put. He is a consumate politician. It seems at present he is "politicking" (sp) better than his opposition.
Thank you, but the word "hero" nowhere appears. It does said he served his country with "courage" and "integrity". I believe that. I appreciate you and the majority here at FR perhaps do not. And nothing I say will change your mind. It is a matter of judgement and instinct. So be it.
"How about when McCain calling for ground troops and a full invasion in Kosovo.."
And that's another thing! I don't remember him calling for a full invasion, but I remember he and Trent Lott and all the other wusses in the senate didn't rise up in revolt at what was an obvious Dog Wag. We found out later (in August, in an article by Lucinda Franks, after she interviewed Hillary and her close friends), that Hillary is the one who called Clinton from north Africa to tell him to start the Kosovo bombing.)Even at that point, the senators didn't criticize Clinton for Kosovo, hellsbells, they haven't even questioned his judgement!
Now we know even more horrific abuses that took place, (a la misleading NATO briefings, and still the senate has not spoken. Senator McCain now claims to be a military expert, the most qualified to be Commander In Chief. Bull hockeydoo!
Well, McCain didn't make the rules, and he's playing by the rules as written, which again, he himself says has the potential to corrupt us all, or at least create the appearance of corruption. But to suggest unilateral disarmament on his part is perhaps suggesting a bit much.
And I believe very strongly in campaign finance reform. On that issue and the progressive tax system I'm to the left, at least in the currency of choice at FR, no doubt about it. On some other issues I'm something of a right wing kook (school vouchers, cutting or at least limiting spending on medical care, slashing or eliminating subsidies here, there, and everywhere, revamping social security and means testing unpaid for benefits, getting even tougher on welfare spending, certain issues involving seperation of church and state), and yet others a moderate, e.g. abortion. Go figure.
Lets see if we can get the bold off.
Thanks, you had me laughing out loud.
I still am reticent to attack him. I am indeed acknowledging that the facts don't warrant my blind defense of him, it appears. In a way I really do feel bad for the guy, but he is running for President and I should not let emotion rule where reason should.
Listen, I was wrong first and foremost in the manner in which I launched on those I attacked. It was particularly painful for me to then learn that apparently his actual service record wasn't quite what I had assumed it was.
Accepting responsibility when I am wrong is a hard lesson learned, but darn I seem to repeat the lesson over and over in life.
Like I said last night, I get a bit bizzarro on things Viet Nam. Should have seen me 25 years ago. On second thought glad you didn't.
Thanks for your kind words on both occasions.
Greg
thanks to McCain for what he endured....he is not a hero.....he endured a lot....but no more than many......it is certainly not enough to make him the contender for the presidency. On top of all of that.... McCain is a moderate.
Regards
J.R.
IB--good job of doing research to back up your opinions. Torie, you sound like soccer mom acquiantances of mine who have jumped on the McCain bandwagon the past few days because they think he's a hero. I was disgusted when Bob Dole was made fun of on Saturday Night Live for having a "funny" arm, a result of war injuries. I agree that the war service should be left alone by other Republicans as part of an attack strategy. But there's plenty for conservatives to disagree with McCain with just on issues.
Huh? The very first sentence, let me reiterate it for ya: "At a time when America searches for heroes to lead us, it has the genuine article in John McCain."
And when exactly did JR make this rule. We are supposed to apologize when we step on toes? :-)
As a matter of fact the current temp in Belgrade, according to CNN, is 30 degrees f. That's mighty cold if you are hungry, old and have no heat.
CAR 1, Torie 0. Maybe McCain doesn't read his website, or at least with no greater care than I. Do you always cut arteries so effectively?
I'm sticking with the TV interview - for now. I still plan to vote for Bush - for now.
Thank You.
I was taught the intense meaning of the word "integrity" by another vet, of three wars, my father and the real Hero in my life. God Bless him, he is still alive having survived WWII, Korea, and RVN as an Infantry Officer.
Living one's life with integrity as your rudder really makes life easier, I have found. But I can assure you it has been a hard lesson learned. Life is more "black and white" than most folks realize or want to accept. The tough part is making corrections when you find out that "white" really is "black".
I deeply appreciate your remarks.
Actually, wrong on both counts. I do not think McCain is a hero, and in the last few days, jumped off his bandwagon, not on (well actually I was undecided, and finally went for Bush), just as the bandwagon got really rolling.
But I still like McCain, in many ways a lot, and will switch back to him if I become convinced as of March 7th that he is measurably more likely to beat Gore than Bush is.
I still plan to vote for Bush - for now.
Wise decision, Torie. That LASIK surgery must have helped with the vision thing.
Good to see you and thanks.
Yup, it sure did. :) Thanks.
Well I was going by a radio show I taped yesterday on the temp. But the people there still have no bridges. Clinton, on his murderous rampage, destroyed all the bridges in Serbia! And the power plants and the biggest factory where they built cars and other things. All over a bunch of lowlife communist Albanian terrorists!
Well J.R. I really don't think McCain is a moderate. I think he is a politician in the mold of our current TRIMPOTUS. I believe he has far more character than Bill Clinton, but even my dog has more character than Clinton.
McCain has become very adept at saying things he believes the people want to hear and then tells them they might not like what he has to say, but that he is honest.
Somehow, the person that looks me in the eye and says, "trust me, I am honest!", has me reaching to make sure my wallet is still where I placed it last.
McCain is a mixed bag, but definitely not my first, second or even third choice for President. I will admit that he looks marginally better than any of the Democrats.
Well, McCain didn't make the rules, and he's playing by the rules as written
While campaigning against them? Well, no wonder think he's like Clinton then. Very duplicitous, IMO.
You just cannot get around the fact that he's taking money from the people who he has power over. No matter how you dress it up.
And he's going to go after Gore about that? I think not.
Well said. John McCain is not a Republican conservative. I actually believe he is quite liberal. He talks about giving the government back to the people, but only with government to make decisions for them. He is as left wing as they come in the GOP. Now I do believe there are some differences between GOP liberals and Democrat liberals but they are minuscule.
John McCain, if he were to win the nomination will not beat the Democrats. The press that now adores him will turn on him in a most vicious manner if he gets the nomination. Of course they are going to try and savage whomever gets the GOP nod.
Howlin, it is sort of like the term limits thing. If those that favor them term limit themselves out, while those that oppose them remain, term limits will never get anywhere. You can't eschew lobbyist money while your opponent rakes it in (unless of course you have alternative sources of money), and ever hope to play the game, get elected, and THEN try to change the rules.
I've never had a problem with this apparent but not real irony, but I admit that it will be a Bush talking point, and by all means he should try to use it to the extent that he thinks it effective, but I doubt it will be. From what I can tell, Bush is focusing now on what are McCain's real weak points, including a few flip flops, and maybe it will dent McCain's impeccable image as a straight shooter kind of guy. But I suspect it will be an uphill battle. Few here at FR may acknowledge it, but McCain is superb politician. One of the best I have seen. But not as good as Clinton. :)
No I don't think Jim ever made that rule. /;-)
It is one of my rules. When I open the mouth as wide and as loud as I did, the longer the foot stays in there the more difficult it is to get out.
I don't have a problem admitting I was wrong. Good thing too, as my wife is always telling me. /;-)
Didn't mean to contradict you AA. Just hoping to help you emphasize the scope of the human disaster the Bent Bastard and his minions have perpetrated on the Serbian people. On another thread it appears like they are closer to finding an excuse to invade Serbia Proper. God help us.
I just want to say that I did not see the threads from yesterday and am not now nor have ever been a McCain supporter.
What you posted tonight though has impressed me. I have tried not to criticize McCain for his actions during his captivity because without being there I have no idea what actually happened to him. My problems with him are a result of his actions since his release and entry into public life.
Again I commend you for this post tonight. It took a lot of soul searching and guts to do what you did here tonight.
Mike R.
Thanks. I linked the threads where I went ballistic in the post, but you really don't have to go and see how rank I got . /;-)
I too have had some pretty low points here.
Lately I found that I enjoy my time here at Free Republic much more when I discuss issues in a "rational" way.
I caught a bit of grief from some Freepers when I first started posting because of my Login name and the "Deep In the Hurtgen Forest" fiasco. I spent the first few months defending myself and then going on the offensive. It was then that I decided that civil discourse is a lot more enjoyable.
Although I must admit that a little spat every now and then is therapeutic.
Anyone can say they are right... it takes guts to admit you made a mistake, and especially in a very public forum like this one.
Post noted, and salute given, soldier (and I don't say that to just anyone). I think you have that ever so evasive quality called honor.
McCain's impeccable image as a straight shooter kind of guy
Torie, I'm not surprised that you feel that way; as I have said before, you usually go above and beyond the fairness rules.....LOL. But even from the few articles I've read on McCain, he's anything but a straight shooter.
How many times can he say that using coporate jets isn't wrong while he's carping about other Senators doing it before it starts to sound like "no controlling legal authority?"
And I'm NOT impressed or moved by the press saying he's a good politician; as you pointed out, we've already got one of those in the Oval Office -- and from what I've seen, we've all be raising hell about what a "smooth operator" he is for the last seven years. I guess I'm just not in the mood to be smoozed again for another term.
If McCain is elected, we're going to have four more years of slickness.
To me, saying "I'm not going to talk about my war record" or "I'm not a hero" are only drawing attention to those very issues -- and he's doing it on purpose.
To me, saying "I'm not going to talk about my war record" or "I'm not a hero" are only drawing attention to those very issues -- and he's doing it on purpose.
Actually, the responses I have seen were to questions by the press in interviews; they raised it, not him. But then of course, McCain and the press - ah yes it is a torrid love affair indeed. One of the most intense I have ever witnessed. Alone here at FR, I think it has little or nothing to do with ideology, but rather with the 4th estate's fascination with the style of the man. In this superficial and prosperous age (the two are not wholly unconnected), style is everything.
But I'm not going to argue too much with you. Your posts are simply too composed and considered to cause one to hit the keys with any passion in reposte, and your points are worthy of consideration.
I'm in the happy position of being reasonably satisfied with either choice, PROVIDED that choice ulimately prevails against a personna that beyond the bore's latest leftward lurch, projects that certain something that causes me to have an irresistible impulse to punch the channel change button whenever his visage appears. No doubt I need therapy.
The media likes McCaine because they like anyone they see assimpathetic with Communism and Globalism. It has nothing to do style.
The media likes McCaine because they like anyone they see as simpathetic with Communism and Globalism. It has nothing to do style.
Imp Bill's response to SSgtMike: "Thanks. I linked the threads where I went ballistic in the post, but you really don't have to go and see how rank I got . /;-)"
53 Posted on 02/04/2000 22:43:23 PST by ImpBill
True, no need to reopen "wounds". And, your apology heartily accepted. Sounds like we're on the same side now, we only want the truth about what did/didn't happen. You're a big man, ImpBill--never easy to admit you got a little out of line.
I didn't read those threads, but I know strength of character when I encounter it. And you, sir, have it! Bravo!
By the Wizard:-"I was as stunned as Chris Mathews when his guest, Professor of Political Science,Clemson Univ, SC. David Woodard Stated flatly:
"The word is that the constituency of DEMOCRATS, SCHOOL TEACHERS, TRIAL LAWYERS, COLLEGE PROFESSORS ALL WANT TO SEE MCCAIN WIN THE NOMINATION"
CM:"Why do you think?"
DW: "Well, because I think they think he's BEATABLE by Gore or Bradley, where they DON'T THINK THAT BUSH IS"
How come the democrat heirarchy and strategists for achieving political power can recognize the weakness of an empty suit and the Republican dumbos can't?
[Your original anger is well founded based on the Professors statement to Chris Matthews.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg, I know this was hard for you to do but.... doing the right thing has made you a GIANT AMONG MEN in my eyes and I'm sure many others who are not able to say so. I appreciate what you have done and also appreciate that you have probably more right to claim the hero status than Senator McCain. Your credentials and honor was not bought by political strings. You sir are a man of character and integrity and have become a real hero to me. Thanks, and God Bless you. I do hope those to whom you have offered the apology do infact, accept it and appreciate how hard it was for you to do the honorable thing. You are a gentleman! I actually have tears in my eyes!
I really really must disagree with you. You seem to think that because a law is in place you should take advantage of it to accomplish your stated goal of destroying that law. Sorry that doesn't wash. There are many people in government who support term limits who have chosen to honor their commitment to a law that currently is not in place but they are determined to help establish it as a law. One of those people is Helen Chenoweth-Hage of Washington State who said she would only run a finite number of terms and has honored her word, unlike the other POLITICIAN who was elected to replace the then Speaker of the House Tom Foley by saying he would only serve a set number of terms if elected AND WAS ELECTED ON THAT BASIS IMHO ,George R Nethercutt, Jr. of Washington State and now that his terms are up, he has decided that he is really NEEDED in washington is has decided to NOT HONOR his pledge (word). George Nethercutt found out how good the benies and money is when you are a politician and decide his word was not important enough to honor. You are giving the same argument -- if you want to change a law, use it as long as it will serve your purposes to help you change it no matter how wrong you feel it is. That is a poor reason to give for allowing McCain to do something he says is wrong and corrupting. There is NEVER A RIGHT WAY TO DO SOMETHING YOU FEEL IS WRONG. If John McCain says it is dirty, wrong, and corrupting, if he had integrity he would not participate in it. He is a POLITICIAN of the first order. Just like the Commander in FELONS.
" It was then that I decided that civil discourse is a lot more enjoyable."
Now that is indeed how I normally feel, as well. Even agreeably disagreeing is ok, but I went way over the line. There does seem to be a great deal of "one ups-man-ship" going on here.
A physiological profile of the "prolific FreeRepublic poster" could be an interesting read. But of course an immediate furor would be raised about the academic and political profile of the profiler. /;-)
I try. But like everyone I come up a little short from time to time.
Thank You. Salute returned.
I appreciate your being gracious about the matter.
Thank You.
Thank You.
I saw that on Matthews. Chris sure cut him off and quick. Dirty tricks in politics, didn't start and, or end with Richard Nixon. College campus's are excellent places to recruit folks to "do mischievous deeds".
The problem with the scenario as I see it, is that it perverts the process. I mean, if every political party, doesn't have a mechanism for selecting their "champions" free from outside interference, who suffers? To my thinking we all do. I don't think campaigners feel the same way. There is quite a number of people that think "winning at any cost" is acceptable. I have found that that philosophy exacts a heavy toll somewhere down the road.
Again, you are way too kind.
Actually the decision to make the amend was rather easy and was quickly agreed upon. (I have conversations with my self. LOL).
The next decision was a bit tougher. I wrestled with sending Freeper Mail and then decided that since I had made my highly offensive remarks in a public forum, the right and honorable thing to do would be to admit error and beg forgiveness in the same manner.
Putting it together in a manner that would be effective was the hardest part. You see I still don't want to impugn the Senators military service. He went through physical and emotional horrors that no one who wasn't there can even begin to imagine.
One of the gentlemen that has written to Col. Hackworth said, that it was a "tough payback for being given his wings, instead of earning them like the rest of us."
That statement haunts me. The Senator was a indeed a victim of the system. He didn't ask for his military lineage and he didn't steal the "wings". The US Navy, hired and paid for by fellow US citizens, "flew him" and awarded McCain the wings which placed him in that aircraft that was shot down over hostile territory. Oh sure, he could have not put himself in that position in the first place some will say. And of course the argument at the surface holds water. But I can empathize to a great extent on the subtle and not so subtle pressures of being the "son of a high ranking and successful military officer." This can get fairly deep, but I identify growing up the son of military Hero and wanting to be "just like dad."
How many kids went to the movies though out the 50's and watched John Wayne "kill all the Japs", and not go home with thoughts of doing the same. What if you went home to greet your father, home for the office, in his "shinny uniform" adorned with ribbons of valor, bestowed upon him by a "grateful nation".
Pretty heady stuff to grow up with.
I went on a bit, but the point again was, how do I make things right with those I offended and not impugn one whom I still believe was heroic in surviving and like I said coming home with a that sense of duty, honor, and country that put him in the position of having folks like us talk about him in the way we are.
To be perfectly honest, putting this thread together was indeed a tough process for me to go through, but I am glad I did. I knew it would be the right thing to do and your acknowledgment only bears witness to the benefits of "doing what is right, only because it is right."
Thank You,
Greg
Thanks for your post.
When I hear the comment that Senator Mc Cain's military record is a reason to support his candidcy, I am reminded of a lesson that I was taught in high school (the participants will date me).
THE LESSON: No one would question that Ted Williams was a great baseball player, particularly as a hitter and no one would question the scientific ability of Albert Einstein. However, only a fool would send Einstein in to pinch hit for Williams!
Thanks for the great post on this potlicking, politicking, politician.
I think I mistakenly said Helen Chenoweth-Hage was from Washington state in my earlier post to you, I misspoke (to say it in PC) I meant to say Idaho, I live on the border of Idaho and Washington, work in Idaho and live in Washington and consider both states elected reps as mine cause I have to pay taxes in Idaho. I was thinking Idaho and my fingers were typing Washington. Sorry.
Please visit http://ww.keyes2000.org/contribute/
You are a good guy Greg, I would fight on your side anytime. you found some middle ground where many would not even presume to look.
That being said, I agree that McCain should not be attacked by us for his military service. Hell he should be praised for going even if he couldn't fly worth a crap. One of the things I find most incredible is guys like Mathews, Fineman and Alter telling us how much they admire veterans. They must have had a character transplant recently.
McCain should be attacked quite vehemently for his views on restricting speech, his advocacy of a huge tobacco tax and telling fibs about never having voted for a a tax increase and because he is playing the class warfare game as well as Clinton and Carville ever did.
Regards.
Very good point. A little food for thought might be; What do you get when you elect a "draft dodger" as President?
I am a bit old fashioned and still believe in "mandatory military service" for all able bodied men age 18 and older. I believe in the draft. I believe in the National Gaurd and Reserve.
I believe a candidate for President of the United States should have had some military service if he/she wishes to be the "Commander and Chief" of all US Military Forces.
I believe anyone who willingly "dodged" that service should be automatically disqualified from seeking the Office of POTUS.
I also believe that "for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows". Then some jerk rains on my beliefs and says, "What about acid-rain?" /;-)
"Thanks for the great post on this potlicking, politicking, politician."
That is a one-liner that really deserves an award. You had me chuckling outloud with that.
Is it just me, but does it seem that one person's "politician" is another's "potlicker". HeHeHe /;-)
You, sir, are a gentleman. You're father must be proud.
You are an honorable man, and have way too much (not really) insight. Your points are well put, and I do agree that we need not spend time cutting Senator McCain's service record down. HOwever, those posts that you posted coming from fellow POW's are another matter. They have every right to tell the truth as they see it. You are in a better position to comment on his service record than I do having not been in Nam, however I think it is honorable of you and certainly the rest of us have not right, to not talk about his record. I do have a right to point out the reasons however, that I think he is not totally honest, etc as a politician. I lived in Tucson,AZ all my life and know McCain's history there quite well and believe me he is not a totally honest, above board person, but he is very likeable! no matter what he says and I'm just basing it on my knowlege of him and what he did while in Arizona. But that's politics and I don't have to prove to you who the best candidate is for President. Just know that I agree with you and have to watch myself to make sure that I too talk about things I know something about and try not to engage in character assassination over things I have only heard. I do agree we should leave the character assasination stuff to others to deal with, it only dirties us to become involved in it. It is only necessary to point out the facts.
Please visit http://ww.keyes2000.org/contribute/<
You are correct as usual. Thank you.
It seems many in the media have had some huge transformations around McCain and his military service. Even a few politicians. Lindsay Graham, a man I deeply admired is evidently genuinely and emotionally taken by McCain.
Where was all this support when we were coming home in the late 60's and early 70's?
I still recall a number of unpleasant memories about "our" welcome home greetings. I still bristle at the phrase "On behalf of a greatful nation."
You know, here in the twilight of his life, I think he his proud of me. He has not always been. I did manage to cause him and my mother some grief, as I have learned children can do. I know I have always been proud of him.
His is a dying breed. A generation that really understood the word "sacrifice".
I got lost for a while after my time in the service. He and I stopped connecting for a long time. I am glad he waited and that I grew, because we do have a deep and warm emotional bond today that I would trade nothing for.
Sincere and emotional bonds between fathers and sons for some reason seem to be tough to establish, beyond the "growing up bond". It is difficult to put into words. I hope you are following what I am saying.
At any rate I am grateful that I have the relationship we currently enjoy. He is a fine example to follow.
Thanks, your post really got me thinking. This whole process over the past couple of days has been quite eye opening for me.
My decision in a Primary Election is to select who I want to on the ballot in the General Election, based on whatever criteria I choose ( and that standard varies greatly from person to person with greater emphasis on some issues).
In the General Election, my decision many times is determined by who I am OPPOSED TO!
In the Primary election, I am not opposed to anybody, mine is a positive decision.
Oh I think you are absolutely correct in your assessment of Sen. McCain as a political animal. Without going into it, I have been privy to information about him from folks I admire and trust, about his character, temper, and ego.
I really don't want to see the man as President. I hope that is taken care of in the primary process, because I don't want to be in the position of deciding between him, AlGore, or sitting out the election. I know who I would like to have as President and I know who I would accept. I honestly don't know what I will do if none of the above is available.
I do want the Clinton/Democrat machine trounced in November. But I have learned we "don't always get what we want". We get what we need. It is hard to keep the faith sometimes however.
"In the Primary election, I am not opposed to anybody, mine is a positive decision. "
Well said, and I couldn't agree more. I am not at all ashamed to say I am a Republican that supports Alan Keyes for the Party nomination to be President of the United States. The person I least identify with from the GOP runners is Senator McCain and I will have a huge decision to make should he be the nominee. My guess is that I will "oppose" the Democrats choice more than I would "oppose" McCain.
It seems to chagrin some here at FR that have the same basic socio/political ideas that I have, but I am not to the point of supporting any of the 3rd Party candidates. I have attempted to explain my reasoning to any number of them, but I haven't done a good job at it. More the pity, because I really do believe that voting, at least for President, for a candidate from a third party is a "protest vote" at best. I am not prepared, at this time, to do that. I do understand that others may well be inspired to support 3rd Party candidates and causes, and that is indeed their right. I just isn't my choice.
I really do want to Defeat Democrats in 2000 and beyond!
I will stand on my comments.
Sir,
My hat is off to you. You have guts and integrity in great abundance. You are a gentleman in the classical sense of the word.
I have read revission histories too many times, to change my stand on McCain. Grant was a drunkard, MacAuthor was a fake, Sam Houston was a coward. And now I read McCain, (who deserves no mention with this group of great men) is a traitor. The charge against McCain is polictical, as were the other charges sited. They are all based on selective interpetatntion, or down right mis-information. The charges are NOT motovated by a desire to set some wrong right. They are made in an attempt to destroy a polictical enemy by deneigning him his honorable past. Either you believe that the American military is an honorable institution and would NOT willing bestow honor on a traitor or you don't. I have never claimed McCain was a hero, only that his service to his country was honorable and that it is dispictable, for polictical reason try and cast him as a traitor some twenty yeas later.
I have no intention of changing my position on this issue. Nothing short of a statement by McCains commanding officer will cause me to even concider doing so.
How about a statement from his SRO? Would that cause you to consider the possibility that McCain lied about being tortured before he cooperated with the enemy? Check out this from original sources and posted on another thread.
A week later, according to McCain, he was taken to a room in which the camp commander, who the prisoners had nicknamed Slopehead, was waiting. McCain said ten guards and an interrogator nicknamed "The Prick" was also in the room. McCain said the guards charged into him beating and kicking him until he 'lay on the floor, bloody, arms and legs throbbing, ribs cracked, several teeth broken off at the gumline." The Vietnamese, according to McCain, wanted him to confess to being a "black criminal." -- McCain said he was next introduced for the first time to the "torture ropes." He said the torture went on for several days before he broke and agreed to write and sign a confession that he was a "black criminal." McCain said that he was moved to another building away from the other POWs.
McCain said (page 136) that he was so distraught because he had signed the statement that he attempted suicide but was stopped when a guard burst into the room
The Phoenix New Times reported in March of this year: "Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede" Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain's senior ranking officers (SRO's), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.
"Between the two of us, it's our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as "The Plantation"]," Larson says. ". . . My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from."
Do you think these men are less honorable than McCain? Do you think they have any reason to lie? Is it possible that McCain is not as honorable as he and the elite press make him out to be?
So you won't even beleive the words of John McCain himself who admitted he gave military secrets to the enemy?
The worst thing that McCain has done is: (1)mistreat POW-MIA families and activists and (2)not help seek the return of and accounting of POWs and MIAs!
Thanks for the heads up on this post. It leaves little doubt as to the veracity of the information that we have been gathering.
I said before that I don't fault McCain for what happened while he was a POW. I just resent his playing it up as though he really was a hero and therefore better than Gore or Bush. I do fault him for the way he treated the POW-MIA group, however. It is beyond the pale to think that a POW who had contact with his parents, whose family knew of his condition and had pictures of him in captivity, would not feel any compassion for family members whose loved ones disappeared behind the bamboo curtain in Viet Nam.
Nope, this is the first time I've heard the term SRO, it IMHO, a BS term. As a pilot McCain had a commanding officer, as a POW McCain had a commanding officer. Get one of them to say McCain was a traitor and I'll join ImpBill in rethinking my position. But untill then, I'll stand on my comments. And I don't care if I am the only poster on FR that will defend McCain against these charges. It is the responciblity of McCain commanding officer to level such charges, it is thier responciblity to write his fitness report. That they declined to charge him and that they declined to even speculate on these matters means to this old marine that the charges and speculation is ENTIRELY polictical.
I am outraged that the Bush camp would stoop so low as to call into question, twenty years later, the war service of John McCain. I have no intention of voting for McCain, but that does not mean I will stand by silently and as AAP trolls for internet dirt to use to attack a vet.
Worse yet McCain spearhead the normalizing of relations with Viet Nam: This was the death warrant for all living American POW's in Viet Nam!
Open your eyes a little and you will see the evidence against McCaine is more than dirt!
The real disgrace of John McCain is not that he broke under the pressure of captivity, but that he turned on the families of the POW/MIA 's . While he was given special treatment as prisoner and his family was well aware of his whereabouts, there were many other families who were not so fortunate. But instead of trying to ease their pain from his legislative position, McCain turned on these people and offered his hand to his own captors, instead. Here's an excerpt from Samperley's article.
McCain openly attacked the activists telling the press, "The people who have done these things are not zealots in a good cause. They are the most craven, most cynical and most despicable human beings to ever run a scam." The Justice Department did investigate the POW/MIA activists and their organizations and found no reason to charge any POW/MIA activist. McCain's use of the words craven, despicable and scam are mighty powerful and poisonous words from a man who admittedly traded "military information" to his communist captors in exchange for better medical treatment--or who divorced the wife that stood by him while he was a POW, after she became crippled in an accident.
I agree that McCain is a "superb politician" but that doesn't make him honest or fit for President!
That is Evil.....Eva.... That is an Evil man!
Does anybody know where his first wife is?
I am not sure where she is now. She was from Phila., so maybe she went back there. I believe that there were children, also.
Torie, haven't you noticed that no matter what the question, McCain always has an answer that is just self-deprecating enough to shut the journalist up? It is a game - after 17 years as a senator, he knows how to play the media like a violin. This man is a danger to our country. He is a liar and a fraud. Don't be taken in so easily. The media adores him - the democrats adore him - that should tell you all that you need to know.
THE KEATING FIVE INVESTIGATION.
You have just grown several feet taller in my opinion, Greg. Of course, I can say that kind of tongue in cheek, because of having my own "not getting" the "imp" part of your screen name for a really long time. Talk about being in a state of "brain freeze", and "missing the point"...DUH!
I am one of the very passionate people in regard to the subject of the Robinsons and this wonderful "home" here on Free Republic. It amazes me, at times, just how quickly we turn on one another, and reduce ourselves to such virulent and "low class" repostes.
We all seem to be operating on intelligent to extremely intelligent brain power here. Perhaps it is our communal, sophistic inability to allow ourselves to be "wrong", or simple frustration at our inability to cope, when we disagree.
This time of the primary season seems to have given most of us severe cases of PPS (pre-primary syndrome). We know how down and out we were, as individuals, at the failure to convict our common enemy. "Home" is the best place to vent that frustration, I guess. It is just too bad that we jump so quickly on the person who sees a different "path" to getting us out of this mess...I'm sure we all have more than a slight affliction of our own humanistic frailty.
I think that you are indeed, a "gentleman and a scholar" to have pursued the matter after being so indignant on that thread last night. Even more, you have the real honesty to admit that you were mis...or mal...informed. How many others research the actual facts instead of just hammering away and jumping in to cause distress to those with whom they disagree? Not too many, that's for sure.
Thanks for your humility and God Bless You! BTW, I spent the better part of the last two hours trying to find that stupid brooch thing as being indicative of something more sinister than the shallow and dishonesty that I keep feeling from the McCains. Any one here that knows how to find the meaning (if any) to that "symbolic" emblem...beyond some stupid Hillary "sorority thing?
>>I caught a bit of grief from some Freepers when I first started posting because of my Login name and the "Deep In the Hurtgen Forest" fiasco.<<
Hah! Don't feel lonesome!(smile)
There is a difference between being a traitor and being a liar. It may be a bit of a stretch to call him a traitor but it is also a stretch to call him a hero as he claims to be.
As I understand it, the Senior Ranking Officer in a POW camp serves in the stead of a commanding officer. I may be wrong on this. However, people I've talked to say that if a prisoner were tortured in a POW camp, there is little chance the Senior Ranking Officer would not hear about it.
Why do you give more weight to McCain's self serving claim than to the statements of other prisoners who have nothing to gain one way or the other? I find it hard to believe that McCain was the only one in the camp to be tortured and that his superiors didn't know about it.
Perhaps you know something about these officers that makes you suspicious of their word. If so please share it. I'm sorry but I find it heard to believe one person who tells a story that benefits himself when faced with contradicting stories from two other people who have nothing to gain one way or the other. When the three people involved are all military officers and all former POWs, I tend to side with the two who have nothing to gain over the one who has everything to gain.
I'm willing to agree that based on what we know at this point the charge that he was a traitor is out of line. I do think his hero status has been debunked and his truthfulness brought into serious question.
Now I have to disagree...but not passionately...just a bit of a difference. In order that we just refrain from making negative remarks about McCain's service record, and grant him the dignity of having the loss of five and a half years...I'd sure be happy to have him "cease and desist" in regard to using that backdrop, bigger than lifesize, picture, of a young McCain, in uniform, when he is onstage at his "headquarters of the day". Really sets him up for his entire service record, in unredacted form, being in the forefront, as well as the background...NO?
McCain has become very adept at saying things he believes the people want to hear and then tells them they might not like what he has to say, but that he is honest.
When a relative of mine, who does not follow politics, said to me of McCain :I think he wants to return the government back to the people..." I knew why McCain had done so well in NH...He had won the war of "soundbites"
Add this one to "I feel your pain" in the soundbite Hall of Fame.
The media adores him - the democrats adore him - that should tell you all that you need to know.
GERALDO RIVERA praised him, and THAT is all I need to know...
AKA Elena, there is a meaning to that pin and you can start by looking here The Cutting Edge for some information about it. Carl
Please visit http://ww.keyes2000.org/contribute/
We are probably much closer on this issue then we think. I hope so as I have long been an admirer of your posts.
I haven't read anyhting from or about McCain. I really don't give a damn about McCain. I see this as a polictical attack on a vietnam vet. It was the implication that McCain was a traitor that brought my blood to a boil. He answered the call and served, he got a raw deal. To attack his service record now 20 someodds years later to aid the campaigns of those that did not answer the call and did not serve just really pisses me off. And I am one of those that thinks, joining a flying National Guard flying club is NOT answering the call and NOT serving. In time of war Regular Army/Navy/Airforce/Marines is serving. In peace time Nation guard is serving since it is likely nation guard units will be activated to serve in the regular armed forces.
I cotcha' on that one, born again...but I knew a fellow Keyesian could only have meant those two states...very minimal error. Helen is on my top ten list in politics, too.
Thanks for the post! I've seen enough about McCain and his hypocrisies to know I would never vote for him, but I figured out the other night why he makes my skin crawl. The resemblance to someone else I know who "could sell ice to Eskimoes" but has absolutely no integrity finally hit me - it wasn't so much the physical resemblance as the mannerisms and way of speaking.
I got the feeling that it was the term traitor that was stuck in your throat. It is his calling himself a hero that sort of sets me off.
However, the thing that really drives me nuts about this guy, is the way he treated the families of the MIA/POWs. When he reduced that MIA mother to rears in the Senate hearing I was livid. I still get pi**ed every time I think about it.
Imagine how the MIA would feel if he knew how his mother was treated while he is off serving his country. (I figure until we know they are dead they are still serving.) To me it wouldn't matter if McCain were the greatest warrior in the history of the world. That act would make him scum.
When I was a kid, we were taught to take care of the "Gold Star" mothers because we owed it to their sons who never came home. I was taught that to do otherwise was to denigrate the service of those man who didn't make it back. I was taught that it was part of our debt to those men. I still believe that.
Anyway, I'm glad you straightened me out on where you stand. I agree we are probably pretty close on this. I'm also sure my opinion is colored by McCain's treatment of that MIA mother but I can't get past that.
I don't know anything about the MIAs and McCain, however if a person as honorable as yourself finds that MacCain action were shameful, I would not argue otherwise. I do not know the man or his heart, my defense is a generic defense of all that served in that horrible dirty little war. Attack McCain on any issue you want, from MIA to Keating. Just do not call him a traitor, or imply that he was a traitor during his captivity and you'll not hear a peep out of me.
You're very kind. As I get older I sometimes wonder if my attitudes about some things are too inflexible.
The trouble I have on this subject is I can still see the tears in my grandmother's eyes when she told me that Mrs. Presser, who lived across the street, would never have a grandson because her son never came home from the war.
She said that the men who went to off fight for us left their mothers and wives in our care and they trusted us to see that they were alright while the men were gone. She said that because we were blessed that my father came home we had an additional obligation to show our thanks to God by treating Mrs. Presser right.
It had a real impact on me as did a similar talk my grandfather had with me, one day when I forgot to go check to see if Mrs. Presser needed anything from the store. He asked me how I would feel if some thoughtless little boy treated my mother that way if I weren't around. Then he told me that the true measure of a man was the way he treated widows, orphans, and mothers who lost sons in the service of their country.
I'm too young to feel like such an antique, so I guess I just have too much of the old neighborhood still in me. It's funny how much impact some things have on a person's attitude and thought process. It is also strange that we don't look at where our attitudes come from until we have to defend them.
I enjoyed our conversation. I hope I didn't stray too far afield in this reply. Best regards.
That was one of the most moving letters I have ever read. It brought tears to my eyes. Thankyou for sharing, and thankyou for reminding us of what honor we are capable of in our own lives. Your parrents are wonderful human beings. G*d Bless them.
If McCain wasn't trying to use his "service record" to get votes I would agree with you to a much larger degree. Unfortunately he is using it in a pseudo humble, shameless way. How many ads has he run to sway veterans because of his "record"? Therefore it is fair game to challenge the veracity of it. He opened the door wide open. I think it is our obligation to find the truth for he is running for the most important office in the land and could well put others in the same position he faced himself.
And isn't your desire to "find the truth" motovated by a desire to expose McCain as a liar and a fake? Don't you really want to sift though all of McCain life's experiences and find faults that you can use to defeat him in his bid to be president.
What I find so sad, is our unwillingness to forgive one another our faults, our eargerness to seeze upon human failings and turn them into weapons of distruction. I have seen so many good men ruined by such tactics that it makes me sick. I am drawing a personal line in the sand. I will not stand for McCain being called a traitor. I just will not stand for that. If you choose to go down that trail I will fight you every step of the way.
I believe you mix issues here. I would happily just forget about him if he would let me. He should be forgiven. Forgiveness does not mean looking the other way and electing him President though. I don't want to see McCain personally destroyed for long ago past deeds. But by the same token, he is not ordained to be our next President (as far as I know). Let him go live his life in piece, just don't ask to be President. If he wants to be President AND he wants to use his "military record" as evidence why he should be, then yes, he should be called on it. I have said nearly nothing regarding is military record but I have pointed out many things regarding "the Keating five", the tobacco tax, free speech and campaign finance reform (and others). I believe the man to be a basically a bad man. I am obligated to point this out to whomever will listen if I truly love my country. For what right to I have to complain later if I don't complain now when there was still a choice? Just look at Kosovo… McCain was the single Republican that gave Clinton cover to do what he did. Why would I want a repeat performance?
The consequences of Kosovo are still coming in. The consequences of this stupid action will haunt us for decades. The "genocide" propaganda was just that. We killed nearly as many people "protecting" them as the other side killed during the whole ordeal… Now look at Chechnya, we have no moral or lawful leg to stand on when literally thousands are being murdered quietly through the night. There was momentum to change course over Kosovo in congress but McCain got on every channel he could to beat the war drum. He has much to answer for and should never be even considered as President.
And isn't your desire to "find the truth" motovated by a desire to expose McCain as a liar and a fake?
Only as far as him being elected President. I would have no interest otherwise. If a liar and a fake had been an issue back in 1992 we would not have had Clinton. Now look at our country... To forgive does not mean to look the other way, elect the man President and then wonder what went wrong when he lies to us.
I don't believe the Senator was or is a traitor. I am concerned about some of the questions raised by folks that were with him. I did also post a link to Admiral Stockdales remarks that don't support the others' opinions. It does seem there are some questions and no real answers.
I attacked folks I don't even know for even raising the questions and then found out from someone whom I do know about that some of the questions may be legitimate.
I have not quoted some of my sources as I did not receive permission from them to do so. Col. Hackworth has personally given me permission to post his material.
The whole point of this thread I posted was to correct an action of mine, that I believe I was not justified in taking.
Nothing more and nothing less.
You won't find me trashing the Senator for his service. But you also won't find me so vociferously defending it either.
Thank You.
"As I understand it, the Senior Ranking Officer in a POW camp serves in the stead of a commanding officer."You are correct. The POW's were a mixed bag of Army, Navy, and Air Force. It feel upon the "Senior Ranking Officer" to assume the role of CO. In some cases DOR (Date of Rank) was the arbitrating factor when officers were of the same grade.
For example an 0-5 (Lieutenant Colonel in the Army and Air Force/Commander in the Navy) with a Date Of Rank of 1/1/65 would outrank the same grade with a Date of Rank of 1/5/65.
Thanks, I thought I had that right but it is good to know for sure.
Great post!!! With all of the bashing going on here, I was starting to think that anyone with any integrity had already left.
I am reposting this statement that I made earlier.
The real disgrace of John McCain is not that he broke under the pressure of captivity, but that he turned on the families of the POW/MIA 's . While he was given special treatment as prisoner and his family was well aware of his whereabouts, there were many other families who were not so fortunate. But instead of trying to ease their pain from his legislative position, McCain turned on these people and offered his hand to his own captors, instead. Here's an excerpt from Samperley's article.
McCain openly attacked the activists telling the press, "The people who have done these things are not zealots in a good cause. They are the most craven, most cynical and most despicable human beings to ever run a scam." The Justice Department did investigate the POW/MIA activists and their organizations and found no reason to charge any POW/MIA activist. McCain's use of the words craven, despicable and scam are mighty powerful and poisonous words from a man who admittedly traded "military information" to his communist captors in exchange for better medical treatment--or who divorced the wife that stood by him while he was a POW, after she became crippled in an accident.
If you read carefully what I stated, I think we are in total agreement.
My original remarks might bear repeating.
"In my continued zeal not to believe any of the allegations that have been swirling around this forum concerning Senator McCain and his military service I set out to gather information that would refute those allegations and clear him of any suspicions concerning his service to his country. I was motivated in that we both served in a losing and unpopular war and whereas I returned with all appendages attached, he remained behind as a POW for 5 ½ years. I could not and still can't remotely imagine what that was at all like."
I further stated, "Part of me wants to believe that he is indeed a hero for just surviving and coming home with a patritotic desire to continue serving a nation that for the most part turned its back upon veterans. The reality is that he is not a hero in the likeness of Admiral John Stockdale, LTC. Leo K. Thorsness, whom I know personally, and many others."
I then concluded, "As for Senator McCain's service, I will not trash the man for what he did while in captivity, as I am not sure I would have done any better. I appreciate both his service and the fact that he survived. As Col. Hackworth pointed out only the Senator, his captors, and God know what the Senator endured."
"For the McCain team, I would highly suggest they stop playing up the Hero stuff. If indeed as many people suggest, it is not the actual case; it will come back to haunt the Senator."
In closing I said, " For those that oppose the Senator's bid for the Presidency, which includes me, I suggest we not drag him and his war record through the mud. The dirt will rub off on us as well. The chips will fall where they may. There is enough post Viet Nam information on the Senator that should spell his defeat in the Republican primaries."
So you see, I don't think we disagree at all.
Yes he wants to return the government back to the people, just as soon as he gets enough money from the D.C. lobbyists to continue his campaign.
I don't think, if you re-read my remarks you will find once that I even infer the Senators service was less than patriotic. I believe quite to the contrary that it was indeed patriotic.
He was not, in my opinion, a traitor!
His willingness to renew formal and trade relations with Vietnam before a total and final accounting of all POW's peeved me royally, I will say. That act, in my mind, comes really close to treason, by my definition.
I would like all you Freepers to post evidence of John McCain's: giving of secrets to the Viet Cong, Keating 5 involvement, cover-up of MIA-POW's, mistreatmant and threatening of POW families, connections to Communist Viet Nam, etc. I want both links and articles (especially examples of McCain admitting to giving military secrets to the Viet Cong). I only want the truth. Please keep checking back to this thread for new evidence as it is posted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American people need to know the truth about John McCain.......We don't need another traitor in the WhiteHouse!
This is the vanity post that started this little war over a mans honor. I clearly viewed this vanity as a dispictable, attack on John McCains service in Vietnam. And I told the author exactly what I thought of him and his trolling for internet rumors and dirt on McCains Service. I haven't changed my mind about the character of the poster or McCain right to his war record. I have limited my defense of McCain to the time he spend as a POW. Other then that I do not give a damn. The author of the vanity, seemed to feel that breaking while at POW makes McCain a traitor as he twice in few sentinses references "giving secrets to the enemy". McCain broke as a POW, it is my understanding that just about anyone can be broken in a matter of days.
I feel that everyone that read that vanity and did not post strongly condemming it should be ashamed of themselves. And I don't give a damn who your favorite candidate is, this type of attack on a vet record is beneight contempt. If we are going to live in a civilivied honorable society then we must FIRST have honor in ourselves, before we can demand it of our leaders. I can think of no charge more serious more damaging to a man's reputation than traitor.
It will be a cold day in hell when I apologize to those that mine the internet sewers to gather evidence that will enable them to make that charge against a Vietnam POW.
I do not take issue with your feelings, whatsoever.
This one might be of some interest to you.
If McCaine were to be elected to the Presidency there is no telling the unConstitutional wars we might get into. When you consider the cavalier and callous attitude of McCain toward sending in troops to Serbia, and Kosovo and even Chechnya he seems to have no aversion to getting US into any war available. When you compound that with McCain's mistreatment of POW-MIA activist and the families of POW-MIAs and obstruction of their valiant efforts you can see all the ingredients for true a Presidency of unConstitutional wars and more abandonment of brave young American men.
From what I understand 2/3s of the American POWs did not break at all and only gave their name, rank, and serial number. McCain gave flight patterns and the names of his ship, other ships, location of ships, his commaning officers, and apparently everything he knew. But that was not enough McCaine went further: he served as a translator for the Vietnamese, further assisting the Viet Cong!
>> He answered the call and served, he got a raw deal. To attack his service record now 20 someodds years later to aid the campaigns of those that did not answer the call and did not serve just really pisses me off.<<
Well,he didn't really "answer the call". The Navy was the "family business",and VN hadn't even started when he entered the Naval Academy. When VN did start,he had no choice but to fly combat missions if he wanted his career to advance. I'm sure his intention was probably the same as most others,to get some medals and return as the "conquering hero" without getting hurt. NOBODY wanted to get seriously hurt or to become a POW.
And I am one of those that thinks, joining a flying National Guard flying club is NOT answering the call and NOT serving. In time of war Regular Army/Navy/Airforce/Marines is serving.<<
I can't agree here,either. Some of the pilots from the NG ended up flying combat missions over NVN. Bush and others were there if needed,and would have gone if called. Don't denigrate the NG and reserve units. Some NG or reserve units DID get activiated and sent to VN. Their service is as honorable as the service of anyone who joined or was drafted into the "regular" military.
This is a public service message by Area51!
Don't denigrate the NG and reserve units. Some NG or reserve units DID get activiated and sent to VN. Their service is as honorable as the service of anyone who joined or was drafted into the "regular" military.
I don't, not really.
During the manpower build up it is the federalized NG units that do the fighting. That is the pool of manpower that the regular armed forces draw upon. BUT, once the forces are up to strength, then the stateside NG units are pretty much left alone. In time of war, once the build up of manpower is complete, the regular armed forces replies on recruting and draft, not the few remaining unfederalized national guard units. It is all a matter of timming, in 69 and 70 joining the NG was a dodge and everyone knew it. It was extremely dificult to get into the NG, and very easy to get into the regular airforces. That in and of itself should tell you all you need to know about NG service after the buildup in Vietnam. NG service in the late 60's early 70's was reserved for the sons of the elites so that they might be sparred the horrors and dangers of the jungles of Vietnam. And that is the plain and simple truth.
>>NG service in the late 60's early 70's was reserved for the sons of the elites so that they might be sparred the horrors and dangers of the jungles of Vietnam. And that is the plain and simple truth.<<
Well,it may have been the truth in some areas of the country,but it wasn't the truth in others. I know a bunch of "regular" guys in my area that joined the NG or Reserves during the VN war.I know some joined the guard to keep from getting drafted,but this had more to do with extra bucks for the weekend drills for some,and not wanting to leave home and work for two years for others. I honestly don't think MOST of the people I knew who joined the NG did so to avoid VN. Some may have,but not most. Face it,even most guys who joined the army didn't go to VN. Some who joined the NG or Reserves even stayed in untill retirement. I lived in a rural southern state ,and most people who wanted to get in the military just went ahead and enlisted. The majority of the rest just counted on "good luck" or physical problems (real or imagined) to avoid the draft. I suspect the NG and Reserve units in large leftist states like Ca had full rosters,though.
Back then the surest way to avoid having to fight in VN was to join the AF,Navy,or USCG. You MIGHT go there,but you wouldn't have to go into the jungle to fight unless you were one of those truly unfortunate sailors who became a corpsman with the USMC. I TRULY felt sorry for those guys! Imagine joining the Navy to avoid actual combat or uncomfortable service in the army or USMC,and then getting drafted into the USMC! THOSE guys are sailors you will NEVER hear a USMC grunt belittle!
I do know there were PBR "brown water" sailors and AF helo crews and Air Commandoes who actually fought,but I believe they were all-volunteer units.
Please note that I am NOT "belittleing" the guys who chose to enlist in services or MOS's that guaranteed they wouldn't have to go into the jungle to fight. IMHO,they were just thinking a lot more clearly than I was. I am NOT ashamed of anything I did in the army,but face it,volunteering for the stuff I volunteered for damn sure wasn't "thinking clearly".
Cheers!
fix font
Thanks for the link.
Greg
Bump!
I know what you mean about eating humble pie! I too realize that I make mistakes, sometimes without thinking, and then the hard part comes when you have to apologize! I would rather have my conscience and heart cleared then to continue on with the guilt, especially when it means making up lies to cover the guilt!
Your post was excellent!
Thank you. Not always, but for many years now I have found that it is much easier looking yourself in the face each morning when you do what you can in making an attempt to repair any errors you may have made.
#140=Right on Bill! Bump!
Plenty for you here to read!
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