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This is a relatively long read, but what follows is the complete translation of an internal Red Chinese Military document entitled : "Watching Closely for Changes in the Relationships with Taiwan and Enhancing the Awareness by Military Leadership of the Current Situation", which was sent to all of their military commanders in August of 1999 (over 7 months ago). All Americans should be made aware of the planning the Chinese have completed on fighting and winning a war with the US over Taiwan. Their capabilities in this regard are a direct result of the treasonable technology transfers and decimiation of our own military moral and capablilities by the Clinton administration, abetted by those in Congress who have gone along with a path of appeasment and economic whoring with Red China.
*** CONFIDENTIAL ***
Document of Office of the Central Military Commission (OCMC)
OCMC Serial No. [1999] 65
OCMC Notice on Forwarding the Document :
"Watching Closely for Changes in the Relationships with Taiwan and Enhancing the Awareness by Military Leadership of the Current Situation"
All Regional Garrisons, All General Departments Affiliated to the Central Military Commission (CMC),
All Arms and Services, All Corps Headquarters, All Provincial Garrisons, and All Prefecture Garrisons:
Attached please find the document "Watching Closely for Changes in the Relationships with Taiwan and Enhancing the Awareness by Military Leadership of the Current Situation," which has been drafted by the General Political Department approved by the CMC Conference to be distributed down to the commanders at the division level. Please read carefully and implement seriously.
(1) Historical mission. National independence and reunification has remained the sole purpose of China's revolutinary movement throughout this century, including both the old democratic revolution led by Mr. Sun Yah-sen and the new democratic revolution led by our Party, both having attracted countless people of aspiration and integrity. The Northern Expedition and the War against Japan represented cooperations on different occasions between the Nationalist Party and the Communist Party and were based on the above goal. From this perspective, the reunification which our Party and country are committed to achieve represents the ultimate aspiration and interests of the Chinese nation throughout the current century. In terms of historical mission, the cause of reunification is based on past efforts and constitutes an issue of nationalism which goes beyond political parties and beliefs and represents the interests of all the Chinese people, including the people of Taiwan.
(2) Taiwan issue has resulted from the Civil War and has never ceased to be an internal affair. The founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949 symbolised the decisive victory of the revolutionary cause of the Chinese people on the Mainland. Because of the international and domestic situations at that time, Taiwan issue was temporarily shelved. However, since both sides accepted the political concept of one China, Taiwan issue was never internationalised. During the Korean War, when the Seventh Fleet moved into Taiwan, our government raised serious protests against the United States and pointed out that such a move had constituted an invasion, thereby clearly defining Taiwan issue as China's internal affair, which demonstrated a high degree of political sensitivity. After half a century's delay, the Chinese government's sovereignty over Taiwan has not changed; as a continuation of history, the substance of the Civil War has not changed, either. If military actions constitute the sole means to achieve reunification of the motherland, we must not concentrate on one point at the expense of the other.
(3) We must create a complete image of a big country. Judging by the various elements which make up a big country, our country is certainly a big country. In the five thousand years of outstanding civilisation, our country has commanded a predominant position in the whole world. After the founding of the People's Republic of China, particularly after the reform and opening to the outside world, our country has not only stood up politically, but achieved remarkable progress in economy and strength. As a result, our country was able to regain its sovereignty over Hong Kong and Macao without resorting to war, which not only washed away the national humiliation since the Opium War, but also set the first example of ending the colonial rule with peaceful means in the world history. However, as long as Taiwan has not returned to the motherland, the unified image will remain incomplete, which is not only an emotional trauma for the Chinese people, but an issue involving the dignity of our country; it should not be neglected. If the fifty-year delay has been caused by historical background and various constraints, the situation today points exactly to the opposite -- it is now possible to accomplish the great cause of reunification from whatever perspective.
(4) The damage to our country's interests and dignity. In the international political struggle, Taiwan issue has long since become a trump card by the anti-China forces and deteriorated into a malicious tumor that hinder the development of our motherland. Playing the Taiwan card and using it to contain China is a manifestation of the old cold-war thinking in the new international arena and an important means of opposing China by a handful politicians in the US Congress who cling desperately to the cold-war thinking. In terms of social system, it is expressed as anti-communist thinking; in terms of outlook, it is revealed as naked racial discrimination. In view of this situation, to resolve Taiwan issue and achieve the reunification as soon as possible not only involves our sovereignty and national dignity, but also directly relates to our country's development and important strategy in opposing world hegemonism.
(5) An obstacle to diplomatic relations. With regard to international affairs, Taiwan issue is the biggest obstacle when it comes to implementing the principles of equality and mutual benefits. In recent years, the Taiwan authorities have been engaged in money diplomacy, capitalising on the economic difficulties of a number of small and weak countries and using money as baits to induce and infiltrate some countries which have had long-standing relationships with our country. As a result, we had to put in some efforts to counter such moves, not only giving diplomacy a greater-than-normal political weight, but also introducing unstable elements into the conventional reciprocity in international relations to seriously interfere with normal diplomatic affairs. On the other hand, because of Taiwan issue, when it comes to territorial disputes and effective protection of the interests of overseas Chinese, we have to consider many different factors and engage in tradeoffs. Consequently, some countries refuse to behave properly; on the contrary, they use their intermittent relations with Taiwan as bargaining chips when dealing with us, seriously harming the interests and reputation of our country.
(6) Taiwan issue directly affects the solidarity of different nationalities within our country and constitutes the most serious hidden problem that could endanger the very existence of the Chinese nation. Ever since he came to power, Li Denghui has devoted himself to changing the one-nation principle followed by the previous leadership of the Nationalist Party and gradually turned Taiwan into a testing ground for splitting the motherland while colluding with the Dalai Lama and other traitors. The potential damage which could be caused by Li Denghui's "seven-block theory" in terms of instigating minority nationalities to split away from the motherland should not be underestimated. If Taiwan issue were to drag on, Taiwan would not only set an example for the handful of splittists among minority nationalities, but also become a base for splitting activities, in which case the whole nation would have to pay a heavy price. Commanders at all levels should enhance their understanding of the position adopted by the Party's Central Committee in regard to the reunification and carry out, at the same time of patriotic education, a wave of politically-oriented military exercises aimed at opposing splittism and promoting reunification so as to raise the political consciousness of all commanders and soldiers up to a level required by war.
(1) Considering long-term interests, peaceful reunification is still the best option, which not only will ensure for the moment the safety and well-being of the Taiwan people, but is a practical solution which will be beneficial to the long-term stability of our country. First of all, because of the propaganda by the Taiwan authorities, ordinary people in Taiwan tend to have views very different from ours. If we opted for non-peaceful means, such differences will manifest themselves in various ways even after the reunification and cause instabilities. "Peaceful reunification and one country, two system" has reflected our Party's practical stance in the past decades and combined both possibilities. First and foremost, peace is emphasised. We must realise that in the foreseeable future peaceful reunification will be most beneficial to our country's development, prosperity, and lasting stability and is therefore a well-advised decision.
Taking a glance across the world, all the contentions and wars taking place in various countries after the cold war have derived from two aspects: nationality and religion. In comparison, the role of ideology has been reduced. People on both sides of the Taiwan Straits are of the same race and share common ancestors, so there exists no social genes giving rise to animosities and hostilities based on nationality or religion. Moreover, the "one country, two system" principle has provided a common ground for resolving the differences in social system. In particular, we have been persistently following a policy of reform and opening to the outside world, which not only represents the interests of all nationalities on the mainland, but also reflects and incorporates the best interests of the Taiwan people in the long run. Under this overall prerequisite, the "two-country theory" put forward by Li Denghui has posed a serious challenge to peaceful reunification, totally wiping out the ground for the dialogue between both sides. However, does this mean the end of peaceful efforts? We should wait for the PCC to make the decision.
(2) Li Denghui and his followers make up only a handful of people, who cannot represent the people in Taiwan in theory or in reality. Although many people in Taiwan are willing to keep the status quo, this only reflects their political short-sightedness caused by lack of understanding of the motherland's mainland and does not represent their interests and true wishes. The wilful wrongdoing of Li Denghui has led to heightened tension between the two sides; if a war breaks out, the first victims will be the Taiwan people. In this sense, when Li Denghui, in an attempt to split the motherland, marketed his own illegitimate idea under the disguise of public opinion despite the risk of provoking a war, he not only openly betrayed the Chinese nation, but went against the best interests of the Taiwan people. No matter how the situation evolves in future, what awaits Li Denghui will be a solemn trial by the people.
However, we must realise that Li Denghui's days are numbered. His poor performance may serve to poison the relationships between the two sides, but will never change the fact that Taiwan is part of China. Nor will it prevent the overall trend that Taiwan will return to the arms of the motherland within a certain period of time. Based on such facts, although the Taiwan Straits crisis resulted from Li Denghui's behavior has increased the possibility of a military solution, we have to consider post-Li Taiwan political situation so as to decide on the best timing and correctly evaluate the political future of Taiwan on which the means of reunification rests.
(3) Deciding on the best timing as far as foreign relations are concerned. Internationally, the many obstacles to the resolution of Taiwan issue have been put in by the United States, while Japan has a complicated attitude towards our handling of Taiwan issue, but because of historical and geographical reasons, Japan does not have the right to comment. EU has ideas different from those of the U.S. and strategically focuses on Europe, so they do not have direct interests in Taiwan issue. In recent years, the relationships between EU and our country have been developing smoothly, and therefore it is very unlikely that EU will fight a full-scale war with us simply because of the United States. In fact, none of the U.S., Japan, and West Europe has given up the one-China position. The "two-country theory" by Li Denghui was to them a source of trouble rather than a gift. Even from the standing point of the U.S., Li Denghui's behavior has long since crossed the bottom line of the Sino-US dialogue on Taiwan, which will make it think twice before intervention. When deciding on the timing, we must take into account the above factors and use diplomatic leverage to minimise international resistance.
(4) The factor of deterrence. Based on strategic considerations, the CMC has decided to disclose, when appropriate, some information on strategic weaponry so that the U.S. will exercise some caution in decision-making and be aware that it would have to pay a price if it decided to intervene in a military conflict. The purpose is to prevent the U.S. from being deeply involved even if a war becomes unavoidable so that the losses on both sides of the Taiwan straits will be minimised throughout the war. The main point is deterrence, which is the test for a peaceful solution. The test is within the strategic scope of taking initiative and promoting good timing.
Based on the international situation as well as realities on both sides of the Straits, Li Denghui obviously misjudged the situation when he threw out the "two-country theory" shortly before the end of his office in an attempt to destroy the well-established exchange channels and internationalise Taiwan issue. Ostensibly, he underestimated our determination and capability; in reality, he was blackmailing with foreign forces behind him in total disregard of the safety of the Taiwan people. In substance, his behavior constituted a sharp contrast to our concern for the safety and best interests of the Taiwan people while seeking reunification. To stay well-informed, be ready to take initiative, and grasp the best opportunity within our predetermined limits represent in a nutshell our high sense of responsibility for the Chinese nation.
(1) The impact on economic development. Taking into account of possible intervention by the U.S. and based on the development strategy of our country, it is better to fight now than future -- the earlier, the better. The reason being that, if worst comes to worst, we will gain control of Taiwan before full deployment of the US troops. In this case, the only thing the U.S. can do is fighting a war with the purpose of retaliation, which will be similar to the Gulf War against Iraq or the recent bombing of Yugoslavia as far as its operational objective is considered, namely, to first attack from the sky and the sea our coastal military targets, and then attack our vital civil facilities so as to force us to accept its terms like Iraq and Yugoslavia.
This is of course wishful thinking. However, before completely destroying the attacking enemy forces from the sea and their auxiliary bases which together constitute a threat to us, even if we successfully carry out interception and control the sky, our military and civil facilities will still incur some damages. The damages will be more extensive if the war cannot be ended within a short period of time and the U.S. launch the second and third strategic strikes, which will take a toll on the economic development of our country. If the above scenario cannot be avoided, an early war will delay the success of our reform whereas a later war will jeopardise the full achievement of the reform.
(2) The balance of strategic weaponry. From the perspective of winning a large-scale modern war with defence as the main purpose but involving local offensives, an early war has another advantage over a later war, namely, not counting the risk of a nuclear war, our conventional forces compare favorably with those of the U.S.. From a purely technical point of view, the US armed forces indeed have no match in the world, which characteristic constitutes the fundamental strength and framework of the U.S. in fighting a war.
However, what we are talking about above is the whole US military organisation with its formal forces at the core, and the gigantic power also includes its advanced and powerful weaponry as well as its capability for nuclear strikes. Based on its structure, in times of strategic necessity, one third of its joint combat forces can be assembled and deployed for overseas operations within a short period of time, but this capability is limited to strategic flexibility. It may constitute a great deterrence to small military powers such as Iraq and Yugoslavia, but has no tactical advantage whatsoever in fighting against us, because we are close to home while they will be exhausted by the arduous expedition. When both sides rely mainly on missile strikes based on electronic confrontation, we evidently enjoy superiority in terms of the number of short-range and middle-range missiles.
So far the strategic superiority of the US joint forces has not been tested in a war against a big country. In contrast, using the Vietnamese War as an example, our forces do have the experience of fighting the US forces under modern warfare conditions. In that war, the Chinese forces were mainly responsible for air defence and accumulated a whole set of experience in this regard.
Things have changed significantly since then, but the most telling changes should have occurred to our forces in terms of personnel qualifications and weaponry, which are well-tuned to meet the requirements of modern warfare. In terms of air defence, it is impossible for the US air force to enjoy the kind of dominance which they maintained in Iraq or Yugoslavia.
Considering the morale of our forces and the nature of the war, and also considering the fact that the performance of the missiles on both sides is basically at the same level as well as the fact that both our defence and offence, which are the two major types of operation that can be imagined, will be carried out from our territory, the strategic superiority which can be claimed by the U.S. is close to zero. It does not even enjoy a sure advantage in terms of the foreseeable scale of war and the hi-tech content which can be applied to combat. It can be safely expected that once the U.S. launches an attack, the front line of the US forces and their supporting bases will be exposed within the range of our effective strikes. After the first strategic strike, the US forces will be faced with weaponry and logistic problems, providing us with opportunities for major offensives and win large battles.
(3) Reaction to and preparation for escalation of war. Basically, we do not foresee a nuclear war between China and the U.S., for two basic facts will prevent it. First, it is against the US interests to fight a nuclear war against China simply for Li Denghui and his followers. On this point the anti-China US politicians will have to respect public opinion within the U.S. Our principle is "willing to sustain major losses of our armed forces to defend even just one square inch of land." If the US forces lose thousands or hundreds of men under our powerful strikes, the anti-war sentiment within the their country will force the US government to take the same path as they did in Viet Nam. Unlike Iraq and Yugoslavia, China is not only a big country, but also possesses a nuclear arsenal that has long since been incorporated into state warfare system and played a real role in our national defence.
During the last crisis across the Taiwan Straits, the U.S. tried to blackmail us with their aircraft carrier(s), but when their spy satellites confirmed that our four nuclear submarines which used to be stationed at Lushun Harbor had disappeared, those politicians addicted to the Taiwan card could not imagine how worried their military commanders were. In comparison with the US nuclear arsenal, our disadvantage is mainly numeric, while in real wars the qualitative gap will be reflected only as different requirements of strategic theory. In terms of deterrence, there is not any difference in practical value.
So far we have built up the capability for the second and the third nuclear strikes and are fairly confident in fighting a nuclear war. The PCC has decided to pass through formal channels this message to the top leaders of the U.S. This is one of the concrete measures that we will take to prevent the escalation of war in the spirit of being responsible.
However, conceptually we are fully prepared for a prolonged warfare. Judging by each's domestic situation, it is the U.S. that will not be able to keep up for long. Historically, China has experience prolonged warfare against foreign invasion, and the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has the ability to safeguard the peaceful production activities by the people of all nationalities in China during the war. We do not want to fight a prolonged war, but this is because our country's basic principle is preserving peace and developing economy, not because we are afraid. Prolonged warfare will work to our advantage and enable us to defeat the enemy, which will be one of our strategic options to win the war under extreme circumstances.
(4) The basic principle of military operation against Taiwan. Our operational planning has been receiving extensive attention, not just from the U.S.; some friendly countries have also inquired about our intentions on various occasions. Foreign news media have published speculations on this topic, too. Since these speculations were based on research done by experts and specialised institutions, they did score some points. However, strategic perspectives can only be valuable when matched with battle operations and tactics.
The key factor that has caused the West's lack of understanding of the capability of our armed forces to fight a modern war is bias and prejudice. The quality and level of their studies have not changed much since the early 1980s. For instance, some US studies questioned the capability of our armed forces to resolve Taiwan issue. The method employed in such studies is typical of studies on positional warfare under modern conditions. Since Li Denghui came to power, Taiwan's military equipment has been updated, basically completing the generation change of the combat arms. However, how much this has enhanced the combat power of the Taiwan forces is yet to be seen, because the Taiwan forces do not have any combat experience and will not be able to stand the test of a large-scale war, which is a fatal weakness.
For many years, Taiwan's defence system and war planning have not gone beyond the operational procedures of so-called "air superiority, sea superiority, and resistance to landing" and therefore will not be able to react accurately to the basic warfare model of instant, large-scale, and fully-extended operations. In particular, geographically Taiwan occupies only a small area. Although the quality of its equipment is not too bad, its quantity is limited. It is obvious that after the first fatal strike, the Taiwan forces have no way to organise effective resistance. Under such circumstances, we will be able to control Taiwan before the US intervention and then concentrate our forces to fight the U.S. Based on this scenario, it is impossible for the U.S. to force us to fight on two fronts when it tries to protect Taiwan.
END.
Did not know if this had been posted yet in its entirety, but now that the Independence minded DPP has won the presidential elections in Taiwan, this document becomes all the more relevant and cause for concern.
The enitre document is an interesting and revealing read.
The enitre document is an interesting and revealing read.
The enitre document is an interesting and revealing read.
The enitre document is an interesting and revealing read.
The enitre document is an interesting and revealing read.
What do you think about the enitre document?
Bump, and bookmark...MUD
I think I made a stupid typo and thank you for pointing it out ... hope your read the document anyway.
I wonder if the JCS have seen this? I know clinton could care less, or he helped draft it in the first place.
5.56mm
I applaud the Democrats and Republicans for building up Red China economically and militarily. Great job guys.
The document is interesting and informative. Most especially so in light of the large number of tactical aircraft being moved to the area closest to Taiwan. This little bit of intelligence was published in a Hong Kong Newspaper within the last 24 hours.
Stay well
Thanks MUD, it's a revealing document and I believe they have every intent of carrying it out, using the gains our own corrupt government personnel have given them.
Yes, I heard that as I travelled the last couple of days.
They are also being pretty quiet.
We'll see. I hope it can pass for the sake of the many good people on that Island, and for our own sakes. So we have more time to prepare and inform others.
But if it cannot pass, then I pray we are ready for a tough fight and have the will to see it through.
There is no doubt that the JC's are aware of it.
Move the USN's fast attacks into the Taiwan strait. Watch the Chinese "Navy" disappear.
Watch the Chinese pilots (who average a whole 30 hours a year of flight experience) flying mainly Mig-19 style aircraft attack Taiwan. See the 'Taiwan Turkey Shoot'.
China got its nose badly bloodied when it tried to 'punish' North Vietnam some 20 years ago. Chinese tactics are apparently to march huge numbers of troops at the enemy until the enemy runs out of bullets. That's hard to do over water. Especially since China has no (zero) assault ships.
It's most likely that China is seeking a Chamberlain-style sellout by the Clowntoon administration. With traitors like Strobe Talbot in charge the likelihood is great.
How come no one has said to China, If Taiwan is yours because it is off your coast, then why should not Cubia be ours for the same reason? What is the reason that justifies their possession of Taiwan? The people who decided to have taiwan as their home were Chinese. That decision is not being respected by the mainland chinese. This is a case of parenthood possessiveness, not rational idealism. It bespeaks of the immaturity of the mental abilitys of undeveloped countrys as China and the U.S. in our own cival war. What a mistake of the need to dominate!
I applaud the Democrats and Republicans for building up Red China economically and militarily. Great job guys.
And, for tearing down the US military at the same time. Clinton Gore have thrown everything we had at Iraq, Bosnia, and Ksosvo. We have very little left with which to fight. I guess China just became one of the world's largest makers of semiconductors.
Don't fall into the trap of believing that enemies must mirror our military to be effective. How many F-4s did the VC have?
The present PRC leadership cut its teeth on the human-wave attacks of the Korean War. This was effective, and served to rid China of 100s of thousands of "unreliable" former KMT soldiers. Today China sits on the demographic timebomb of millions of unemployed young men with no wife prospects, ever. Their leaders may want that bomb to explode on Taiwan's beaches, and not in Beijing or Shanghai.
"Deniable" EMP blasts in space east of Taiwan may blind and cripple most assets of the 7th Fleet as well as Taiwanese air defenses. The French said the Germans could never defeat the Maginot Line. The Germans found a "work around solution". We may be hiding behind a high tech microchip dependant "Electronic Maginot Line". If everyone's chips are fried, and it comes down to sheer numbers...
The PLA is capable of launching a 10,000 coastal craft "Dunkirk Invasion" against Taiwan. There are not enough torpedos in the world to stop it. That's 2 million troops, and even if only 10% make it to the beaches... Add in 10 airborne divisions, 5th columnists in place, 100s of medium range gas rockets coming down on Taiwan's airfields...
Napoleon said two things to keep in mind here: 1/"Europe will tremble when China awakens", and 2/"Quantity has a Quality all of its own".
It is not whether you or I believe such an attack can succeed, but whether the PRC leadership does that matters. The same CP PRC leadership that gave China the disastrous "Great Leap Forward" and "The Cultural Revolution". If you expect to see only rational Western-model war plans from the PRC, you may be in for a rude shock. I think a Taiwan invasion is very unlikely. But ask the French if unlikely scenarios can never come to pass.
FReegards,
One small point you may have missed: 1,000,000,000+ Chinese people! Does we even have that many boms and bullets left? Just a little sarcasm.
The only question I have is, if the US goes to war with China, who gets to be the 'good guy' and who gets to be the 'bad guy'?
"During the last crisis across the Taiwan Straits, the U.S. tried to blackmail us with their aircraft carrier(s), but when their spy satellites confirmed that our four nuclear submarines which used to be stationed at Lushun Harbor had disappeared, those politicians addicted to the Taiwan card could not imagine how worried their military commanders were."
LOL! Can this be confirmed?
Thanks for the heads up for a very interesting read.
the humiliation that the Chinese people have been subjected to for more than a century
They use the word 'humiliation' in reference to themselves twice in this document. The Chinese take 'face' very seriously, and they've huffed and puffed and threatened Taiwan and the U.S. over these elections, and IMHO placed their prestige on the line. I don't see many ways out of this short of war.
I agree that they are looking for a sell out.
I also agree that they are willing to trade people for time and attrition. The point is this, if the sell out by America is that we do not vigourously defend Taiwan, then a war of attrition by the ChiComms can work.
If we help defend, then they cannot win a war of attrition and can only resort to their WMD, which will have uncalcuable consequences.
If China attacks Taiwan, the Red economy probably won't recover for ten years. That would probably doom China to a series of internal wars. With an effective unemployment figure approaching the U.S. population, China's future is not necessarily bright, that is unless we keep helping to build them up. Whatever the case, it's going to be interesting to watch.
I'm afraid we're not going to just be watching.
And to quote Ralph Kramdem, it will be interesting to watch the "FIND THEIR WAY BACK FROM THE MOON" if they start any trouble!
I believe thye have to do something ... I'm not sure exactly how far they will go. They are capable, given their ideology and their history, of going all of the way.
After reading most of it I have to conclude it was written by a idiot(s). It's all dribble. I think these goofs will start a war just to bring their own hell to the rest of the earth.
These are our "good friends" that Clinton and the Pubies want to give Most Favored Nation trade statis.
I'm with the "grunt." Something will come out of this, just like the "announced" million man New Years attacks of 1951 and 52.
I note that we are talking about 100 miles distance for these small craft to travel. This is not as impossible as people say. As you said the PRC is the entity that decides what is feasable. There are a number of stealth options for securing a port. Once one has a seaport the rest is simply enough hulls to get the men and equipment accross and enough air power to keep a majority from being sunk. One division will fit in a reasonably sized container ship with some refitting. How many container ships does COSCO have? (Hey I typed it right!!!!) How many Roll on Roll off ships do they have? How many divisions can be offloaded in a day? I do not have all the answers but these are some of the capability questions.
For those who point out the capabilities of the US Seventh Fleet, will they engage the PRC in direct contradiction to the orders of the commander in chief? Will NRO information be passed to Taiwan?
Stay well
The PRC leadership has undertaken doomed self-destructive courses before, "The Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" come to mind. Don't look at it from a rational weastern point of view.
Also don't forget that the Chinese have a 200 year grudge against the West from the Opium Wars, Gunboat Diplomacy, Unequal Treaties, etc. We have forgotten it, while they have been burning to restore lost honor for many decades. "Payback Time" is coming, as seen by the Chinese.
FReegards,
I heard such talk about the VC around 1965.
The Nazis took Norway in 1940 using a merchant ship "Trojan Horse" invasion. They grabbed the Norwegian "Home Guard" armories before the Norwegians were even awake! German destroyers raced in after the storm trooper secured the ports, providing point blank gun support. The Chinese could pull the same trick with COSCO ships, and even a few 747s full of "Malaysian Tourists".
I don't think they'll try, but I'd be prepared for some crazy stuff.
FReegards,
Naturally there is no way to accurately predict what will occur. however I spent some time in the USN cruising through the Taiwan Strait. Good luck getting 10,000 small boats through that nasty Sea. Small boats are also extremely vulnerable to even small calibre fire and the areas of Taiwan that could be landed on are quite well defended. For China to militarily take Taiwan would be expensive beyond belief.. perhaps even Chinese belief.
The history of big totalitarian nations that attack small ones who are prepared to fight has not been too complimentry to the aggressors. Finland's 100,000 man army inflicted millions of casualties on Stalin's vaunted Red Army. In fact it was the Red Army's abysmal performance that assured Hitler that he could successfully defeat Russia. He almost did. The Isrealis made mincemeat of Arab armies vastly superior in numbers. Russia was brutalized in Afghanistan. North Vietnam successfully fought off the Chinese Army and there was no water to cross.
China would likely weaken its military in the not-very-certain campaign to take Taiwan, That would leave its common border with Russia greatly weakened. I don't believe for a second that the supposed Russia/China agreement to co-operate is anything more than crap. Russia will take Manchuria if it can.
1,000,000,000 people can't even be used as cannon fodder if they can't get to the objective. It's a long swim. 100 miles I believe. I prefer to remain optomistic. Hope I'm not whistling past the graveyard.
"Don't look at it from a rational western point of view."
How right you are.
I've also sailed the area and agree with you.
Do you remember after the mainland fell, the Reds tried to take one of the nearby offshore islands held by the Nationalists and the Nationalists killed 40,000 Reds on the beach before the Communists decided to call it off? China cannot defeat Taiwan at this time unless nukes are used.
The position of every Chinese submarine is known all the time, 24 hours a day. It's a laugh to think they "disappear." It is impossible to 'hide' anything in today's world.
I am familiar with the Norway precedent. And to those who say 100 miles of open sea is way too much for small boats. Routinely small boats go 150 miles out to sea to fish even from the American Coast. There has been a rather large amount of smuggling from the PRC to the Philipine Islands over the last several years using small boats. Not all or even most of the Taiwanese shore is fortified. I also have been in those waters aand they are passable and have been passable for centuries. I note the invasion of nationist islands attempted in the 1950's was defeated by fortifications on those islands and the fact that effective resupply was denied the PRC because of USN presence among other factors. I claim no special ability to predict the future and I do not know what is going to happen I am pointing out capabilities.
I note that the willingness to incur 40,000 casualties and the past human wave assualts in Korea does not make me feel warm and fuzzy. I note that there are many similarities to current rhetoric and the pre Korean rhetoric.
Stay well
I think Malaysian Borneo/Brunei is a more logical target, 5 or 10 years from now. Control of the Soth China Sea is a more logical and attainable goal for the Chinese. But we may not understand logic the same way as them.
FReegards,
The Taiwanese or the ChiComs are not bound by the U.S. 'Rules of war.' A couple of well placed (perhaps already in place) tactical nukes at the Communist party and military headquarters could mean freedom for those 1b+ Chinese, think about it. I expect most Chinese would not care about being ruled from Taipei. One China concept fulfilled, huh?
Thanks for the heads-up, Jeff. I have read excerpts from this document before.
The bottom line is, IMHO, the assertion that Taiwan can be rapidly overcome by a sudden PLA invasion. Chinese leadership appears to be relatively unconcerned with facts to the contrary, and they seem to believe that strategy and timing are all that matter. They believe that it is "better to fight now than in the future." They apparently feel that a military window of opportunity has opened for them. No doubt, they are referring to the following facts:
Each of these movements/strategies has been carefully planned so as to be in place when the time is right for China to make a move. And, by their own admission in the above report, that move is going to be sooner, rather than later.
Also, China's development of electromagnetic pulse weapons (EMP's) are a major threat to both American aircraft carrier fleets, and Taiwan's advanced bombers and fighters. With our fleet rendered impotent, and Taiwan's aircraft following suit, PLA ground forces could easily hold all the cards.
China has supposedly been mobilizing due to an off-handed remark made by the President of Taiwan. Almost simultaneously, Russia holds periodic mobilizations in an effort to invade little Chechnya. North Korea is mobilizing as well. Coincidence? To believe so is probably naive. These supposed internal crises, and the resultant mobilizations, may be just a ruse to hide a larger-scale goal which would extend far beyond incursions into Chechnya or Taiwan. To allow them to take that first step with impunity, is tantamount to issuing them an open invitation to take a second step....and a third....Such is the way of communism.
I don't recall who wrote this, but I read it (and copied it down) from a recent WorldNetDaily article:
History teaches that war is always inevitable. Somehow Americans have come to think that we are exempt from this inevitability. We talk of peace with murderers and gangsters. But peace with such people is always an illusion....It is time to consider the big picture. We must dispense with our childish political illusions. We must hold fast to our allies and friends, and we must oppose our enemies. Of course, we have yet to acknowledge that our enemy exists. To be sure, he knows that we exist. And perhaps his job is to make us disappear.
Realistic assement. I spent some time in those straits in the mid/late 60's. Has anyone considered how many mine fields an invading force would encounter. I expect the ocean bottom in that area is covered with all kind of suprizes.
The factor of deterrence. Based on strategic considerations, the CMC has decided to disclose, when appropriate, some information on strategic weaponry so that the U.S. will exercise some caution in decision-making and be aware that it would have to pay a price if it decided to intervene in a military conflict. The purpose is to prevent the U.S. from being deeply involved even if a war becomes unavoidable so that the losses on both sides of the Taiwan straits will be minimised throughout the war. The main point is deterrence, which is the test for a peaceful solution. The test is within the strategic scope of taking initiative and promoting good timing.
This is why they threaten us publicly with nuclear weapons.
Since Li Denghui came to power, Taiwan's military equipment has been updated, basically completing the generation change of the combat arms. However, how much this has enhanced the combat power of the Taiwan forces is yet to be seen, because the Taiwan forces do not have any combat experience and will not be able to stand the test of a large-scale war, which is a fatal weakness.
Tis a gamble, but time will tell.
First of all, because of the propaganda by the Taiwan authorities, ordinary people in Taiwan tend to have views very different from ours.
Li Denghui and his followers make up only a handful of people, who cannot represent the people in Taiwan in theory or in reality. Although many people in Taiwan are willing to keep the status quo, this only reflects their political short-sightedness caused by lack of understanding of the motherland's mainland and does not represent their interests and true wishes.
On a lighter note, great examples of their own propaganda. Sounds like one of Lockhart or McCurry's best days.
ATTACK THE UNITED STATES!
Henry Gruver of Joyful Sound Ministries
601 Walker, Woodbine, IA 51579
Amos 3:7: "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets ."
2 CH. 20:20 "...Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets. so shall ye prosper ."
MAT 18:16, "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established ."
I was in Wales, on December 14, 1985. I went up on top of the Eagle tower in the Caenarvon Castle. It had eight points on it. Each of the points all it were eroded eagles. This castle was built in the 12th century.
I was overlooking the Irish Sea toward the North Sea -- Norway, Sweden, Denmark, the tip of Scotland, Greenland, Iceland in that area.
All of a sudden I was up above the Earth looking down upon the earth like a globe. As I looked down on the earth, I saw all of these massive amount of all kinds of ships and airplanes. They were coming from up above Norway, out of this inlet.
They headed down between the United States and Europe. They literally covered the whole Atlantic.
Then I wanted to see what was happening to the United States. I looked over on the globe at the United States. I saw coming out of the United States these radio communication towers. I saw the jagged lines I like they draw to show that communications are coming out. All of a sudden, as I was looking down on them they began to sparkle down on the earth like dust. I thought "Oh no! They are not getting through! They are not setting through. They don't know what is happening! They are totally oblivious! "
Then I began to see all of these submarines emerging from under the surface. I was surprised at how close they were to our boarders! They were in our territorial waters! Then I saw the missiles come out of them! They hit eastern coastal cities of the United States.
I looked over across the country where my family was over in the northwest side, and I saw the submarines. I saw the missiles coming out and hitting the western coastal cities.
I cried out and I said, Oh God! Oh God! When will this be, and what shall be the sign of its coming?"
I heard an audible voice speak to me amid say, "When Russia opens her doors and lets the masses go. The free world will occupy themselves with transporting, housing and feeding and caring for the masses, and will lets down their weapons and cry peace and safety. Then sudden destruction will come. Then is, when it will come."
That was December 14, 1984. Glastnost and Parastroika were unheard of at that time!
I THESSALONIANS 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety ; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
I saw all of these massive amount of all kinds of ships and airplanes. They were coming from up above Norway, out of this inlet.
http://www.ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/gruver.html
Friday, July 2, 1999 Published at 10:51 GMT 11:51 UK
Cold War revisited
In an incident reminiscent of the Cold War, US fighter planes based in Iceland intercepted two Russian TU-95 Bear strategic bombers and escorted them away from Nato airspace.
"We haven't seen anything like this for almost a decade," a US defence official said. "It used be a frequent event to see the Bears come out of the north. But we also had a lot of submarine activity then, and things have changed," the official added.
The incident happened last week but has only now come to light.
The bombers were taking part in what the White House described as one of Russia's largest military exercises of the decade.
As they approached from the east, they were met by two pairs of F-15 fighters and a P-3 patrol plane and guided around the island.
The bombers then flew north, crossing the North Pole and re-entering Russian airspace, where they fired inactive cruise missiles at targets in southern Russia, according to news agencies in Russia.
US Defence Secretary William Cohen and White House officials played down the incident, saying it was part of a long-planned Russian military exercise.
"There is nothing that surprised us," Mr Cohen told a Pentagon news conference. "It's an exercise that was anticipated. I don't think we should read any more into it."
But Mr Cohen acknowledged that it was the first such incident in at least five years, and that the encounter had raised questions about Moscow's motives.
"I'm sure it does have some multiple purposes - perhaps domestic purposes, international purposes. They want to be seen as remaining a force to deal with," the defence secretary said.
Correspondents point out that the encounter happened at a time of strained relations between Nato and Russia.
Russia was critical of Nato's air campaign against Yugoslavia and at the failure of its own weakened military to deter attacks on a traditional ally.
The Russian military threw Nato commanders into confusion when they deployed their troops early in Kosovo, occupying Pristina airport and refusing access to Nato troops for three days.
General Wesley Clark, Nato's supreme commander, declined to speculate on possible Russian motives for probing Iceland's air defences.
In Moscow, a spokesman for the Russian air force denied that its strategic bombers had violated Icelandic air space, describing the reports as "untrue."
According to a US defence official, the Russian bombers were intercepted outside Iceland's air space but on the edge of a zone in which approaching aircraft are expected to identify themselves.
The Washington Post, which reported the incident on Thursday, said the Bears were part of a four aircraft formation that flew down the center of the Norwegian Sea from Engels Air Base east of Moscow.
Halfway across, two TU-140 Blackjack bombers peeled off from the Bears and flew down the Norwegian coastline.
Norwegian fighters also scrambled to try to intercept the Blackjack bombers, the paper said.
http://news2.thls.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid%5F383000/383709.stm
A Vision Received by Brother Dumitru Duduman
- April 22, 1996 -
I prayed, then went to bed. I was still awake, when suddenly I heard a trumpet sound. A voice cried out to me, "Stand!"
In my vision, I was in America. I walked out of my home, and began to look for the one who had spoken to me. As I looked, I saw three men dressed alike. Two of the men carried weapons. One of the armed men came to me. "I woke you to show you what is to come. he said. "Come with me."
I didn't know where I was being taken, but when we reached a certain place he said, "stop here!"
A pair of binoculars was handed to me, and I was told to look through them.
"Stand there, don't move, and look," he continued. "You will see what they are saying, and what they are preparing for America."
As I was looking, I saw a great light. A dark cloud appeared over it. I saw the president of Russia, a short, chubby man, who said he was the president of China, and two others. The last two also said where they were from, but I did not understand. However, I gathered they were part of Russian controlled territory. The men stepped out of the cloud.
The Russian president began to speak to the Chinese one. "I will give you the land with all the people, but you must free Taiwan of the Americans. Do not fear, we will attack them from behind."
A voice said to me, "Watch where the Russians penetrate America."
I saw these words being written: Alaska; Minnesota; Florida.
Then, the man spoke again, "When America goes to war with China, the Russians will strike without warning."
The other two presidents spoke, "We, too, will fight for you." Each had a place already planned as a point of attack.
All of them shook hands and hugged. Then they all signed a contract. One of them said, "We're sure that Korea and Cuba will be on our side, too. Without a doubt, together, we can destroy America."
The president of Russia began to speak insistently, "Why let ourselves be led by the Americans? Why not rule the world ourselves? They have to be kicked out of Europe, too! Then I could do as I please with Europe!"
The man standing beside me asked, "This is what you saw: they act as friends, and say they respect the treaties made together. But everything I've shown you is how it will REALLY happen. You must tell them what is being planned against American. Then, when it comes to pass, the people will remember the words the Lord has spoken."
Who are you?" I asked.
"I am the protector of America. America's sin has reached God. He will allow this destruction, for He can no longer stand such wickedness. God however, still has people that worship Him with a clean heart as they do His work. He has prepared a heavenly army to save these people."
As I looked, a great army, well armed and dressed in white, appeared before me.
"Do you see that?" the man asked. "This army will go to battle to save My chosen ones.Then, the difference between the Godly and the ungodly will be evident."
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Prophets/Prophecy.Duduman.America.html#CHINA AND RUSSIA STRIKE
As Albright Met Yeltsin with START III Proposal,
Chernomyrdin Supervised Nuclear Missile Exercise to Strike U.S.
February 26
While Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was meeting with President Boris Yeltsin on February 21, Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin "was at the Odintsovo nuclear command center, overseeing an exercise whose assignment was 'to destroy the U.S. in less than an hour,'" Segodnya military correspondent Pavel Felgengauer writes. In comments monitored by OMRI Daily Digest, Felgengauer adds that Albright's proposal for START III asymmetrical nuclear weapons reductions in favor of Russia is an "attractive" idea.
http://afpc.org/rrm/rrm237.htm
Revelation 18
1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.
2 With a mighty voice he shouted: "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3 For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes.
6 Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7 Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, `I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.'
8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
9 "When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.
10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: "`Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!'
I could go on but I'll leave you with these…
Isaiah 47
Jeremiah 50, 51
Zechariah 2
Luke 21
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Great post Jeff. Bkmk'd & sent to family & friends. Thank you Sir.
How is it that this became published? It reads like it was supposed to be published in the Western world in order to sway public opinion in the US against a war with China. If it is real, and they really believe their rhetoric, then war, IMHO, is inevitable. Hope it doesn't happen before Xlinton is out of office. Even though he is in their pay, he would love to go down in history as the American president who took on the biggest country in the world. And can you say, third term, or unlimited rule?
The only question I have is, if the US goes to war with China, who gets to be the 'good guy' and who gets to be the 'bad guy'?
Better yet, where will it be held? Maybe an outdoor theater?
It is my understanding that some of our intelligence assets (maybe even Taiwanese) got it and the pentagon translated it.
Of course it could just as easily be planted and in effect be more psychological warfare against us.
In either case, they are building up to an effort, either full military, or in an effort to get appeasment.
Either way, short of us capitualting, or short of us doing to them what Reagan did to the Soviet Union (bankrupting them), or short of the people of China overthrowing them (and I hope this is exactly what occurs), I believe war with the ChiComms is inevitable.
Was it Travis McGee? It seems it was posted last week sometime.
Thanks for the comments. When you get a chance, read about the "Deng Xiaoping Theory" mentionend in this paper and to which I link when is it mentioned at the start and end of the paper.
More insight into the thinking.
I think you got that error message with which I've pounded the hell out of some threads ...
...., I believe war with the ChiComms is inevitable.
klintoon just loves it when a good plan comes together.
Quite the poster pair aren't they?
Stand firm my friend and Semper Fi !
Pardon me for butting in! Couldn't resist.
Good guys? The ones wearing the white hats, of course.
China wouldn't be stupid enough to go to war with its golden goose. Too many hungry mouths to feed. Besides, they want the economic growth: read that as they want their VCRs, SUVs and cellular phones!
Have you ever been over there?
Very few of the population even know what a VCR is. They are by far and away for the most part peasants. They are kept that way by a marxist government that has no interest in their welfare.
Be careful not to ascribe our western fixations and desires on these people ... and particularly not to their government.
If they believe for an instant that they can take Taiwan and give us a black-eye in the process, they'll do it, irrespective of economic considerations. The economy is a means to an end to the ChiComms ...
On the other hand, if they believe they will not be able to cow us and the ROC into a relatively obvious victory, and lose the economics as well ... then they'll resort to internal damage control and continued blustering. We must convinve them that there will be no appeasement IMHO, and force them to back down.
"If they believe for an instant that they can take Taiwan and give us a black-eye in the process, they'll do it, irrespective of economic considerations."
It's beginning to look as though we should have allowed Japan to fully re-arm about 15 years ago when there was some debate here and there on the issue.
How long did they hold the island.......a few hundred years???
Thanks for the heads-up. Bookmark and bump.
Yes, I have been there. Went for one week to Hong Kong and three weeks to PRC.
My ex and I traveled there with a group in the fall of 1981. We went to Guangzhou, capital of Canton, Shanghai & Soo Chow Gardens, Beijun (Great Wall too) and Xian, where all those terra cotta statues are.
My ex had one of the very first video cameras and loaded the entire stuff on his back. The Chinese were fascinated by the big camera. It's my guess that they know what VCRs are. They are now used in all the big cities at clubs, schools, bars, etc., so people who would be curious about new things would know what they are (And not all humans have "machine" curiousity. I don't.). All six hours of raw footage we have seems to be just people, people, people. There were people up and around twenty-four hours a day in the big cities. Factories never closed. The Chinese were extremely curious about us.
A few talked to us. They would extend their hand for a hand shake and say two words: Nixon, friend. Harharhar. What irony. Dirtiest place I've ever seen in my life. And we traveled to India for four weeks. I lived in Mexico for two years and in Saudi Arabia for five years. China has them all beat for filth. Unbelievable.
I think that China's plans for Taiwan are long term. Taiwan was part of China for 3000 years and was only "ROC" for the last 50 years or so. In the end China and Taiwan will probably come together (100-300 years? who knows.) for trade, commerce, business, "cultural" exchanges, etc.
From my glimpses of Taiwan and Hong Kong the Chinese are hungry for modern stuff. Also, an opinion, the governments of both countries will keep a very tight grip on the people, via their armies, prison, bribery (with promises of "economic reforms") or propaganda, whatever works.
From the little countryside I saw the land is in full use to feed the gargantuan population. And the "countryside" encroaches on the cities right up to the factory walls. Every square inch of open land seems to be put to use for some kind of farming. The government seems to have its hands full sometimes just feeding the population, preventing the massive famines of past, providing some potable water and preventing the hellish diseases of past centuries.
My opinon only, JeffHead, the U.S. is only useful to the Chinese of both countries for what we bring in the arena of helping them: money, money, money. I sure hope we don't go anything foolish like commit even one ship or Marine to defending even one Chinese person. We should stay OUT OF IT!!!!! Let them battle it out.
My gawd, 1,200,000,000 people in China plus Taiwan! And now India has reached the one billion mark too! Lord have mercy they are, um, prolific.
Actually, according to what I have researched, Taiwan (Formosa) has not been a "part" of China for 3000 years. It was named a protectorate of the Yuan Dynasty (which was formed by Ganghis Khan) in 1206. Before that, it was inhabited by its aboriginal peoples ... some of whom clearly originated fomr the mainland, but without mainland control.
In 1544 the Portugese discovered and claimed the island. The Dutch invaded and controlled the island from 1624 through 1661. During this time the Spanish and the French also occupied portions of the island.
In 1662 the Dutch were thrown off by the aboriginals who formed their own Kingdom through 1683 when the mainland Chinese again conquered the island and the Ch'ing Dynasty then ruled the island through 1895.
In 1895 the Japanese took the island after a war with China and according to treaty. They ruled the island through the end of World War II.
In 1945, the Nationalist Chinese took control of the island and have continued in that role through today.
So, in the last 3000 years, it appears that the mainland Chinese have controlled the island for 550 years.
In my opinion, Taiwan is no more a "part" of China than Mongolia or Tibet.
The Republic of China is a nation which we recognized until 1978. They are free, working with a free market and trying to pattern their republic after our own. They are freindly to us ideologically, economically and in almost every other way. They represent the great hope for the masses on the mainland IMHO, and the ChiComms know it. This is the real reason those leaders desire to "assimilate" Taiwan.
It would be foolish in every concievable way for us not to help defend Taiwan ... economically, strategically and from a pure honorable standpoint. I pray we will not have to ... but if those balloons go up, I pray we will have the resolve and the honor to help them preserve their liberties.
Have you ever been to Taiwan?
I know we disagree completely on this but I would not send one ship or Marine to Taiwan to defend one Taiwanese. Not in a millllllyun years. You think they are our "friends." IMHO, you hatred of Chicom clouds your perception of "friendly" Taiwan. IMHO Taiwan would sell us down the river in a nanosecond. Please don't flame me for this. It's a philosophical disagreement. I shouldn't have even discussed it with you; I know where you are coming from on this. We've been through this dance before...and you were pretty, um, clear on your opinions.
I have spent about 14 weeks in Taiwan over the last 2 years.
I do not "hate" the Chinese people. I do recognize the form of government that the "ChiComms" espouse as the antithesis of the liberty enumerated by the founders of this nation. This is not a "clouded" perception. It is based on the reality of their marxistic and communistic foundation.
It is not my intent to "flame" you, and I sincerely hope the peoples of China can find and grasp and stand up for liberty and their own unalienable rights. No one else can do it for them. But, if a group of them in the process of doing this very thing, ask for our help against a beligerent neighbor who would deny them this and who would crush them, particularly when we have committed ourselves (Taiwan Relations Act) to that help and when that beligerent neighbor can also represents a threat to our other strategic interests ... then I believe we should do so.
Sorry we disagree.
In their own words.
. Taking into account of possible intervention by the U.S. and based on the development strategy of our country, it is better to fight now than future -- the earlier, the better.
These are the guys our reps (GOP included) just voted PERMANENT MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS to. Sounds more and more like a sell out.
These are the guys our reps (GOP included) just voted PERMANENT MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS to. Sounds more and more like a sell out.
Thats just what it was. Our nations leaders have blood on their hands.
... and I'm afraid that the blood is also going to include a lot of our own ... and they know it.
Hell, they knew about this very document as they were casting their ballots ... but between FBI files, Chinese blood money, promises of power and influence, good old fashioned blackmail (I am sure), a good dose of ignorance and naievety bordering on criminal negligence and some yellow streaks ... they ignored it and voted to fund clear enemies just the same.
There are other words that come to mind.
May be that was why the Reds wanted to begin pumping automatic weapons in to our radicals! To balance out our 2nd Amendment class.
Did you read the thread about the Pentagon now wanting to do US NAvy Shipbuilding offshore in foreign countries? I'll bump it to you.
Unbelievable. It is so blatant that it would be laughable if it wans't so dangerous with so many of our citizens asleep at the wheel!
Wind's rising.
Thanks! BUMP>>>>>>>>>
FYI, from their own mouths. The congress had full knowledge of this as they voted for permanent most favored nation status.
Unfortunately it's a sad fact that US shipyards are not what they once were. To begin with there are fewer shipyards capable of building real live ships vice boats (boats being less than 300 ft). Also ships built in the US cost significantly more due to the fact that the shipyards are populated exclusively by union workers. Due to the workers allegiance to the union rather than the country they produce a product (excepting the nukes, although they also cost way to much) that seem to always come in behind schedule and over budget or delayed by the annual strike. Does this mean I think we should buy warships built in other countries? NO, we need to build enough ships in the US to provide for far and away the most capable navy on the planet with enough front line ships and aircraft to deter even the most desperate of opponets. What we also need to do is corral these union thugs and their democrat handlers and get our monies worth from american shipyards, if they continue to refuse then there are NATO nations perfectly capable of building excellent seagoing platforms and unemployed democrats.
They (the Red Chinese) have been saying that they intend to fight us, and beat us, for some time.
Those folks who voted for favroed nation for China are one of about four things:
You've probably seen this before. However if not Here's Info!!!!
Thank you so much for the heads up!
Just a matter of time GOP or DEMS......just a matter of time. BLOAT Friend, BLOAT!
The people who sold us out to the Red Chinese apparently never got the message when they were children, in that, no matter how often they gave the school bully their lunch money, the beatings would not only continue, but they would also intensify. There's only one way to deal with a bully and these whining liberal globalists who think they can turn the world into their hippie utopia haven't a clue.
After reading this thread, I wonder, not only how many people will still question my semi-bunker/survivalist mentality, but how many Ostrich people will continue to stick their heads in the sand.
The ultimate prize, and the ultimate impedement to the stated globalist aims of the people (on both sides of the aisle) who are supporting actions like the treason with Red China, is the United States ... and inparticular, the armed citizens of this nation.
Bunker buddy or no, I believe that it will be their ultimate goal to negate our ability to interfere with those globalist aims. I believe all of this will ultimately play towards that scenario.
I would be happily proven completely wrong, but I believe that's where it ultimately leads. I also believe they will fail, but not until after some very horrifc rows are hoed, and only then if we have the help of Providence. So we must be vigilant, we must be prepared (as in BLOAT and BANG), and we musr do all we can to get others to prepare and themselves ecome involved ... and finally, we must seek the hand of Providence as did the founders of this nation
Semper Fi!
Bump.
Your Very Welcome, Alamo-Girl!!!!:-)
Up to the Top!!!
volley bump!
BUmping UP!!!!:-)
volley bump!
Bumping for the nightwatch!
Thank you for the bump!
BUNP for effect.
Volley bump!
Ooops ... BUNP = BUMP.
Hope folks are listening ... this threat and issue has not gone away, but continues to fester. With Red China now sending Iraq aircraft it can only get worse and could indicate a rather immediate time table.
I'm expecting to see some major changes in foreign relations with the new team!!! I hope there is enough time and good will left for them to repair damage done by this administration...
Timely BUMP. From their own mouths.
BANG!
BUMP nd BANG!
These are the guys our reps (GOP included) just voted PERMANENT MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS to. Sounds more and more like a sell out.
True and the band will cheer it on in the name of free trade. Note to free traders: The idea is a good one however a distinct line must be drawn so you do not give aid to your enemy. China has yet to show this nation in any way that they are our friend. ALL TRADE with China should be stopped until conditions there improve. Why buy the bullets for China to shoot back at us?
bttt
Amen. And our representatives and members of our government should be more concerned about FAIR trade, FAIR TO THE US, than what they are calling Free Trade IMHO.
Free Trade without fairness to US interests is just allowing some people to make a quick profit without a care for our interests. I am about as supportive a person of the free market as one can find ... but that free market has to exist in an environment of liberty, unalienable rights and morality. When you take these things away from it and try and apply it with foreign nations who care not a whit for liberty ... and with our own politicians, officials and global corporate bosses who are so busy filling their pockets and resumes that they forget about those principles ... well then, it just becomes another tool for the tyrant.
Back at you bro. BUMP and BANG!
bttt
I don't know what Jeff thinks, but I heard that it was an interesting and revealing read.
Alphabetic list of SOFTWAR Web pages (MIND BOGGLING)
Yep. I believe we've been set up.
Much of it knowingly by traitorous individuals who are out for their own gain, the gratification of their own lusts and desires, as a result of the blackmail perpetrated on some and because of the ideology some of these traitors have accepted as their own.
Others have done it unknowingly as a result of their economic whoring or their use by the Communists and globalists as the epitomy of what Stalin called "Useful Idiots".
Still, they have miscalculated IMHO as they will come to ruin, albeit after a hoorific struggle if it comes to that.
Time to make sure you have something that'll fire 7.62x39?
I've stuck with the NATO .223 and .308 rounds.
Can always obtain the other if necessary.
I'm BUMPING this article I posted from last year. It was a good thread then.
It is a timely read now in light of current events.
We do not just have to rely on Admiral Moorer's warnings. They've been saying themselves what they intend to do. Notice they themselves indicate "sooner rather than later". We are fools if we do not take them seriously.
A Red Blooded American Response to the Red Chinese
I'm BUMPING this article I posted from last year. It was a good thread then.
It is a timely read now in light of current events.
We do not just have to rely on Admiral Moorer's warnings. They've been saying themselves what they intend to do. Notice they themselves indicate "sooner rather than later". We are fools if we do not take them seriously.
A Red Blooded American Response to the Red Chinese
I'm BUMPING this article I posted from last year. It was a good thread then.
It is a timely read now in light of current events.
We do not just have to rely on Admiral Moorer's warnings. They've been saying themselves what they intend to do. Notice they themselves indicate "sooner rather than later". We are fools if we do not take them seriously.
A Red Blooded American Response to the Red Chinese
I'm BUMPING this article I posted from last year. It was a good thread then.
It is a timely read now in light of current events.
We do not just have to rely on Admiral Moorer's warnings. They've been saying themselves what they intend to do. Notice they themselves indicate "sooner rather than later". We are fools if we do not take them seriously.
A Red Blooded American Response to the Red Chinese
bttt
Thanks for the refresh-memory bump.
Thanks for bringing this back. I'd forgotten about Medved's 'bunker buddy' comment. ;>)
bump
If you read that document, and then see what's going on ... well, almost two years ago they said they wanted it sooner rather than later.
If they can get us to cowtow and roll over ... they advance that much farther without the immediate clash ... if not, one has to wonder if they are willing now.
IMHO, a country doesn't drag another country's plane from international waters onto their air force base and then treat the crew as POWs and the equipment as war booty unless they think they're ready to back it up or alternatively, need some handy hostages to keep that country from coming to the aid of a neighbor. In either case, war will be coming soon to the South China Sea.
I'm not worried. All will be as God wills it, Mr. Head.
As for me, if it comes to war -- real war, not some phony "Asian Storm" CNN photo-op -- I'll volunteer. I'll have to lie about my age (I'm almost 36), but I think I can pass. Even if I end up swabbing decks on the USS WALTER MONDALE, I'm there.
Evil must be resisted.
.223 & .308 basic's are good idea. I added 7.62 x 39 (and 54R) as your document indicates that weapon may be readly available as well as the ammunition........
Good (scary) Read as alway's Jeff. Hope you and yours are well. Stay safe !
Thanks for the heads up.
BOOKMARK BUMP
Thanks for the re-up.bttt!
Thanks for the heads up, I have not seen this before.
Yes I have been over there, and the urban population is very much aware and desirous of possessing all those things. China hopes to get the means of producing these things, and bitterly resent that they must purchase so much of it from abroad. Can you say "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere?"
Most of the population is not urban, and the government's interest in manufacturing and technology is not really directed so much at their people as it is towards getting the heavy industry and technology on their shores. The people getting nice western gizmos is a very secondary by-product IMHO.
Yes thought, they are moving towards a desire for regional control just like the Japanese did in pre-WW2 days.
bump
Here's the Chinese "Paper" I mentioned on the other thread. These are their own words.
We'd best take them seriously.
T, what/s the problem with flying a couple of dozen Warthogs and C130s and 50cal the hell out of those rat bastards on their way over the straight?
when china attacks Taiwan, North Korea Attacks South Korea.
Yep ... these are their own words on the matter.
Why would the Chinese want to make war on us?
I prefer to let them speak for themselves. Read their won words.
This is the first time I read this. I have heard of this document before though.
I believe it is authentic.
I also think we have many things going to our favor and a few going against it. Of course I am talking about everything combined, diplomatically and everything.
Militarily he thinks we are going to attack the coastal cities should a war break out. Wrong.
We are going to take the fight to the people making the fight. We will sink every boat and shoot every plane out of the sky. Where ever they are attacking from is where we will hit.
He is also under estimating the US. Its never a smart thing to do that.
I never said they would not try to fight should we intervene in the Taiwan issue. I said 'it is unlikely they will launch an unprovoked terrorist act against our mainland.'
I also don't think this guy understands: one boomer can wipe them all off the map.
... and before that happens ... probably 6-8 weeks before, something goes down in the Mid-East or the Balkans.
I believe you would see something like that (Mid-East or Balkans), followed a few weeks later by N. Korea. Then once we try and engage in those two (a difficult proposition right now), China would let loose on Taiwan and elsewhere.
They will not fight us in the manner we are accustomed. It will be faints and deception. They will use surrogates to get us involved (see post 126) and then they will attack the ROC and other areas while we are engaged elsewhere and will use tactics and methods of their own devising.
Don't get me wrong, I believe they will lose. But I believe the American people are going to have to be humbled to the point of fighting for their very survival and then gearing up for that type of fight before we are victorious.
WOW! Great post! Thanks.
Scarey stuff.
Maybe we should sell the Taiwanese a boomer. Tridents included.
That would make their (Chicom) doctrine obsolete, wouldn't it?
Only kidding.
5.56mm
You're welcome. Nothing like hearing it in their own words.
I would not be suprized if the ROC already has its own nukes. Probably small and untested outside the lab.
Clearly, if they did, and let it be known ... the entire equation would change.
As it is, if they do, the PRC will find out about it as soon as there is any outside chance that the ROC would lose the island.
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