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Horvat: What are the details of Paul Wilcher's death? What can you tell me about that?
Russbacher: Paul Wilcher was killed. There's no question about it.
Horvat: OK. How, what is the situation? I understand he was found in his apartment. I know very little about what happened to Wilcher.
Russbacher: Well-
Horvat: When did it happen?
Russbacher: How far back do you want me to go? Back to the time that I began contact where Sara McClendon called me at 2:00 in the morning, asking me to intercede and get help? You know Sara McClendon? Chief White House correspondent for McClendon News Services. She's the owner and operator.
Horvat: OK.
Russbacher: So Sara gets a hold of me here at the institution [where Russbacher was incarcerated] and tells me that she's concerned because she hasn't seen Paul for several days. Seven or eight, maybe nine days prior to Paul's disappearance, he received a video tape and a large package of documents. And it was the video tape of the [SR-]71 flight coming back from Paris [Bush's October Surprise flight]. I finally decided I would acquiesce to Paul's demands and give him the damn thing. Although, all common sense told me not to do it, because the last time we attempted to take delivery of the tape, they had a shooting at one of my people, a helicopter overhead, and the United States Park Police.
Horvat: OK.
Russbacher: By the way, you will find that the U.S. Park Police is going to play a very significant role on anything that's rural in the United States henceforth.
Horvat: OK, i.e. Vince Foster.
Russbacher: I.e., yeah. So, and they do wear federal black frequently.
Horvat: Do they?
Russbacher: Yeah. So anyway, I received a phone call from Sara McClendon asking me if I would make certain calls and initiate contact with some of my individuals in Washington to make a determination as to where Paul Wilcher was, or in the alternative, to find out what happened to him. Within a matter of about 2, 2 1/2 hours, through St. Louis connections and some of the Washington connections, we found out that Paul Wilcher had in fact disappeared shortly after he received the tape. And the package of documents. Bear in mind, Wilcher was a loose cannon. OK?
Horvat: Right, we've talked about that-
Russbacher: Among a number of other things, he was also working on the Waco debacle. And I gave him stacks of information of who really went into Waco. Who in fact lit the operations, and who sanctioned them. And it was not the FBI.
Horvat: Or the BATF.
Russbacher: Of course not.
Horvat: OK.
Russbacher: It was Delta group special forces.
Horvat: They were there.
Russbacher: They were not only there, but the special operations group from those symbiotic units went in. If you'll remember at the time when Waco went down, directly, approximately 15-20 minutes before all hell, fury broke loose, you saw a helicopter overhead. And winching, people were being inserted into the compound. Into the building proper.
Horvat: OK.
Russbacher: And the intent was not to leave any living survivors.
Horvat: But there were some.
Russbacher: Yeah, there were, much to everybody's chagrin and regret.
[snip]
Horvat: ...But I wanted to get back to Wilcher. Because I wanted to find out-when did he actually die? I don't even have the date.
Russbacher: I don't know offhand, I really don't. I would have to go back and check my records.
Horvat: Ballpark figure, was it earlier this year-
Russbacher: No, he died last month.
Horvat: Oh, last month, OK. And the official cause of death was, what?
Russbacher: There is no official cause of death. No, they said death by natural causes, however, Paul Wilcher was a striking example of perfect health.
Horvat: Yeah, well I remember when I met him. Very tall, very big-
Russbacher: Very active, athletic, no heart problems, nothing whatsoever was wrong with him. So anyway, my people went into Wilcher's apartment about 3:30 in the morning, and they found him sitting on the toliet. Dead. The interesting thing is, immediately my fellows became very concerned that foul play is at work. Do you understand why foul play was at work? First of all, there was no fecal material in the toliet bowl. None. There was no urine-no urinary tracks around the bowl. And we all know that the moment that somebody dies the last function is to relieve all body functions.
Horvat: Sure. Absolutely.
Russbacher: So they're trying to sell this to Sara, well, maybe he flushed it before he died or something. This is quite a strange, preposterous. So my fellows went in there-the place had been ransacked, they'd taken documents, the computer was on, somebody had already entered the computer or attempted to gain access. Plus bear in mind I had about 55 audio tapes that Paul Wilcher had of me-had over 2,500 pages of documents. All gone. I advised my people to get the hell out of there. As quickly as possible. On the way out, they met the FBI. So the FBI came in, there were 27 FBI agents, 6 DEA, 2 DIA, I think one or two agency types of a different fashion, and considerable amounts, copious amounts of Washington Police Department, you know, Washington, D.C. cops. And they proceeded to seal off and secure the area. Sara McClendon arrived that morning with Marianne (sp?), and they told her that, they can't go in, because it was a federal crime scene. So Sara says I want to talk to the chief agent in charge. There was none. Nobody would admit to the fact that they might have been the chief agent of the particular task. It was a whole damn task force. And they were falling over each other in Wilcher's apartment trying to get-now, also interesting is, there was a contact number in case we couldn't get a hold of Wilcher, was the apartment next door.
For some strange reason as of that morning the individual was no longer living there. The phone had been disconnected. When you called the number it said "You have reached a government number which has been disconnected. Please call the Langley operator for further details." Nobody's ever heard of the fellow since then. So anyway, the interesting thing is that when everybody delved into the why and when Wilcher died.
Horvat: Yeah, that, officially, has certainly not happened.
Russbacher: Well, you see, the whole thing, doesn't make a lot of sense, because if I prop a brand new fresh cadaver, pardon my crude language, on a toliet, the moment rigor mortis sets in, or the moment the body begins to relax it's going to fall off that toliet seat.
Horvat: Sure.
Russbacher: You're not going to place a new dead man, stationary, on top of a toliet seat.
Horvat: Particularly as big as Paul was. He was big.
Russbacher: So anyway, my guys got into the action. They picked up some strange fibers and so on while they were in the apartment and they did a determination that he in fact had been held, bound in a fetal type position, in the back of a white, Ford Crown Victoria, with blue carpet, in the trunk. They found the fibers, analyzed them. The other thing that's very interesting is, when the FBI finally did release the remains to the coroner, there were no bowels, the heart was no longer in place, so somebody did quick surgery while he was still in the apartment. Now they did have the heart, and the bowels, and some of the other organs held separate at the coroner's for pathology purposes. Then they decided they didn't want a pathology report. They were going to cremate the damn thing. Well, Sara and I decided we would get an attorney in Washington and prevent the cremation. Then they got a hold of Paul's brother, Dave, who has a long, drawn-out history with drugs. The last time I got Dave off was basically just a slap on the wrist, they were pattycakes. But in the meantime Paul got in trouble again and I told-Dave got in trouble again and I told Paul, I guess it was in June sometime, that your brother was going to go back into District court, and this time, be prepared, the boy's going to prison. Another drug possession with intent to distribute.
After the body had been secured, pathology had done its part, and we're talking within hours of discovery of the body, a true consent form was signed by David, Paul's brother, to turn the body over for cremation. Which is exactly what transpired.
Horvat: Before any pathology, before anything could happen.
Russbacher: No, they did do pathology. But now for some reason nobody can locate the pathology reports.
Horvat: OK, well, that's kind of the same thing. You can't get hold of it, and if they would get close to it, it could be destroyed.
Russbacher: Absolutely.
FYI.
You might want this for your files.
Buckeroo,
Didn't you mention Sara McClendon on another thread ? Perhaps if you know more about her you could put your comments here.
jedediah,
uummm
Russbacher: So anyway, my guys got into the action. They picked up some strange fibers and so on while they were in the apartment and they did a determination that he in fact had been held, bound in a fetal type position, in the back of a white, Ford Crown Victoria, with blue carpet, in the trunk. They found the fibers, analyzed them.
This really pushes the limits of credability. Are there any comments on tapes you have that go into detail about Wilcher being a "loose cannon" as described by Russbacher ?
No, this is the only reference to Wilcher being a "loose cannon" I have.
Regarding the findings of Gunther's agents, I might mention that included in the Wilcher memo (sold by Rayelan & in her introduction), I believe the license tag of the vehicle is given. Apparently there was a witness or photos which would give the vehicle type.
The fiber analysis may sound like a stretch, but to the experts it is not necessarily impossible. With a computerized database of identified fibers, once a fiber is obtained and photographed digitally, a computerized match can be made quickly. The same technique is used to match fingerprints with people and spent bullets with guns.
Possibly the quality of carpet in the trunk is less than that of the car's interior, which would identify where Wilcher was stashed in the car. He may also have had rope burns on his wrists, fibers on his sleeves, etc. to indicate how he was tied up. Sorry I can't add any more details.
I have a comment re: Wilcher being a "loose cannon."
He would fit into that category, to my way of thinking, for the following.
Anyone who would write a 101-page letter [in the form of a memo, which is what his "report" really is] to that length and in that degree of detail of various and sundry crimes and misdeeds of the federal government and forward it to Janet Reno [it was addressed to her and "CC:'d" to a number of other government officials], I think that qualifies for that description, a "loose cannon." He didn't know what he was doing; that is, he knew what he was doing, but didn't have the foggiest notion of conceptualizing aforehand the fallout that might arise from having done so--which made about as much sense as Casolaro going down on his lonesome to meet some government thugs in the wilds of Martinsburg, West Virginia.
Capice?
There is nothing novel about a car [or, for that matter, home] carpet fiber analysis.
It's done with car paints as well.
Here are some links....
Excerpts of The Wilcher Report - The Truth About Waco from the "Sightings" site HERE.
Here is the "PAUL WILCHER - The Deadly Pursuit Of The Truth" thread
I agree, he was a fool to give that report to Reno.
Quick question: I just got Trance: Formation of America from amazon today. What's your take on it?
I have not read it, but have heard some suggest Mark Phillips serves as a "net catcher;" that is, someone who serves as a control agent for a mind control subject [for various purposes]. For example, when they might come out from under control, as what is depicted happened in the case of Brice Taylor in suffering head injuries as a result of a car accident; another might be faulty programming; and another might be to use them to serve as a source of disinformation. Then again, it could be just as it's described. Who's to say what's plausible and what's not, except to your own discernment.
Having run across this author before, I can say at the least his intent is honesty in the article [if you've not seen it], "Mind Control Slavery and the NWO."
thanks
BTW, speaking of your namesake, have you seen this, "Bringing The Mammoth Back To Life."
No, I had not. Thanks for the link :) .
Thanks for clearing that up. This should lay to rest the speculation that "his head was blown off."
I know your question wasn't directed to me, but after reading that book I could not view the world the same way again. I am in the process of reading Brice Taylor's book. They are somewhat similar, but I think Brice Taylor goes into even more detail.
From your linked article:
Mind-control survivor K. Sullivan has written an astounding book called MK, a fictionalised account of her life, which describes the world of multiple personalities. To her credit, Sullivan has been able to reconstruct from her memories the actual mechanics and methodology of going from one alter state to another. A programmed assassin and sex slave, Sullivan says she was abused and raped by Robert Maxwell, Henry Kissinger, George Bush and Billy Graham, among others. One of her controllers was deceased CIA operative James Jesus Angleton, who has been widely regarded as a KGB and Mossad asset....
Billy Graham has been discussed here at FR before.
While not stating having any knowledge of anything of that sort, several stated that they knew him from their hometown and that he wasn't everything he's cracked up to be and is a self-promoter. Again, I am only paraphrasing what was said, and nothing more, or less.
from UB's compilation:
FROM: Garby Leon
Columbia Pictures
Culver City, CA
July 14, 1993
TO: The Honorable Janet Reno
Attorney General of the United States
Department of Justice - Room 4400
Tenth and Constitution Ave N.E.
Washington, DC 20530
Dear Madame Attorney General,
I am writing because I feel the death of Paul Wilcher deserves your most serious attention, and should be investigated by your most trusted officials in the Department of Justice.
Paul Wilcher, like Danny Casolaro, was investigating possible government involvement in a variety of questionable activities, including the controversial October Surprise allegations and the INSLAW case, his researches leading him into areas that Casolaro had covered earlier. In his quest Wilcher made himself known in and around Capitol Hill as a persistent gadfly, trying to spur inquiries into possible government malfeasance in several areas. He had contacts with, among others, Lee Hamilton, William Webster, Elliot Richardson and Ross Perot.
By late May, Wilcher said his information had gone beyond Casolaro's and he felt this made him a da"danger signal.U In three weeks, he was dead.
I feel that the two deaths, Casolaro's and Wilcher's, offer disturbing parallels, outlined below.
On the 23rd of June, 1993, the body of Paul Wilcher was discovered in his Washington DC apartment. This is not a certainty, since to my knowledge no evidentially identification--no fingerprint or dental x- ray matching-- was made before the body's reported cremation two weeks ago.
Present at the scene after Wilcher's death was noted White House correspondent Sarah McClendon, who knew Wilcher well and who had alerted authorities that he was missing. McClendon was unable to identify the body as Wilcher after viewing the remains.
McClendon has been told that preliminary autopsy results have found "no natural cause of death, and no other cause of death to explain Wilcher's demise. Given that Wilcher, in his 40s, was in apparent good health, this seems fairly astonishing.
A much larger issue is also implied here: if critics of our government are found dead in their bathrooms from obscure causes, and the government itself doesn't take steps to find out why, then our freedoms themselves are threatened--as well as the activities that protect those freedoms.
If individual investigation and criticism of government activities is chilled or intimidated into silence, then democracy loses its most important protection.
To put it another way, if Danny Casolaro's death was a message of some kind, then Wilcher's death is an even grimmer message--it suggests that Casolaro's death was not a fluke. Anyone inspired to follow Casolaro or Wilcher's path now has a strong added reason to fear doing so.
And a real investigation into Wilcher's death might not be an academic exercise. One person who is extremely close to and knowledgeable about the Casolaro case has said in private that the mystery of Casolaro's death could be resolved by a Grand Jury investigation, with sworn testimony, subpoena power, etc. This suggests Paul Wilcher's death may not have to remain a mystery either.
Paul Wilcher was an acquaintance of mine. He was not a perfect person; he made mistakes like anyone else but he was also, at times, a man of unusual energy and altruism. A seminary student who considered becoming a priest, he later became an attorney is his efforts to accomplish some good in this world.
Overall, I fell he was a good man. He didn't deserve to die.
Personally, I don't believe he died of natural causes.
*
In the following pages are brief remarks regarding A) disturbing parallels between the Casolaro and Wilcher cases; B) Police, FBI and CIA presence at the scene; C) other information about Wilcher's death; and D) possible further forensic investigation.
Mme. Attorney General, I feel the death of Paul Wilcher offers too many questions and inconsistencies to be ignored. I am writing because I feel this matter deserves your most serious attention,and hope this letter will bring some action on your part to answer some of the many, very troubling questions raised by Paul Wilcher's death.
Sincerely,
Garby Leon
(PhD, Harvard University)
DISTURBING PARALLELS BETWEEN THE WILCHER AND CASOLARO CASES:
Both were investigating possible government involvement in illegal activities.
Each was acting on his own, with dogged persistence, over a long time period.
Both Casolaro and Wilcher expressed fears, shortly before their deaths, that their lives were in danger because their investigations had led into sensitive territory. Casolaro was known to have received direct phone call threats, and told his brother shortly before he died, "If something happens to me, it won't be an accident."
As stated, Wilcher told at least one other person at the end of May that he feared he'd become a "danger signal" because his information on government malfeasance had gone beyond Casolaro's. In three weeks he was dead.
Both decedents' bodies were found in bathrooms, in bizarre circumstances (Casolaro a supposed suicide though forensic evidence cast substantial doubt on this; Wilcher, a man in good health, propped up on a toilet but showing no discernible cause of death).
In both cases, the scene of death was sealed off and made inaccessible, then cleaned, preventing any further official or independent investigation (the motel room where Casolaro was found was industrially cleaned the next day; Wilcher's apartment was sealed off and no one was allowed to enter; it was also cleaned the next day. I am unaware of any subsequent, serious investigation or crime report released to the public in either case).
In both cases, personal records, documents, computer files and/or other information belonging to the decedents are apparently not officially accounted for. Casolaro's briefcase and personal records were not found at the scene of his death. While Wilcher's family reportedly has taken possession of some personal belongings, the location of Wilcher's complete files, the result of years of hard work, is not publicly known.
In both cases, rapid alterations were made to the corpse making further forensic study difficult or impossible. Casolaro was embalmed shortly after death without family consent; Wilcher was cremated, as remarked above, without fingerprint or other evidential identification of the body, and without complete forensic examination to determine cause of death.
In both cases, forensic evidence relating to the corpses is scant.
In neither case was any kind of inquest held, no official testimony taken under oath, nor was any thoroughgoing official investigation undertaken (at least publicly). Nor has any official report been released in either case.
POLICE, FBI & CIA PRESENCE AT THE SCENE, JUNE 23, 1993:
According to Mr. MASON O. LIDELL JR. (637 Third St. NE, Apt. B-03, DC 20002) superintendent of Wilcher's building, a Lieutenant and a Sergeant from the D. C. Police (with the help of firemen to force the door) entered Wilcher's apartment at about 11:30 AM on June 23rd. Three detectives from DC Police entered and found Wilcher's computer was turned on. When they read what was on the computer screen, they summoned the FBI. There is no further information on what the screen actually said.
After entering the apartment and getting a brief glance at the body and the apartment, Lidell was ordered to leave. The apartment was sealed off for the rest of the day, except for official personnel. The body was removed at about 12:30 according to Lidell (who didn't witness this), though he did mention that when he entered the apartment later, there was blood on the floor and on the commode which wasn't present earlier. He was told that this was because of measures taken to move the body.
At about 4:30 in the afternoon FBI Agents arrived. Sarah McClendon was also present, though not allowed in the apartment itself. She says two groups of four FBI Agents - eight FBI Agents in all - arrived and asked questions. McClendon checked their identification, which seemed convincing. According to Lidell at least three FBI Agents entered the apartment during the 4:30 to 7:30 time period.
Then, according to Lidell, one man appeared and said he was CIA (without offering identification). He joined the FBI agents in the Wilcher apartment during the 4:30 to 7:30 time period. More people could have entered during this time Lidell says "he returned to his own apartment and didn't keep track."
Lidell says that an NBC camera crew was prevented from entering the apartment. Aside from firemen, medical personnel to remove the body and the above Government agents, no one was allowed in the apartment for the entire day - no reporters, friends, media crews, etc. This raises a question: why no other observers, since police okayed cleaning of the apartment the very next day?
Ms. McClendon phoned the FBI to ask about the presence of FBI Agents; later MR. JAMES V. DESARNO JR., Assistant Special Agent in Charge from the D. C. Metropolitan Office, arrived. Mr. Desarno also asked questions, but strongly denied that the FBI was interested in or involved in the case. "We are not interested in this case," he told McClendon, Lidell and others repeatedly.
This seems curious. If Wilcher was a "nobody" why the official presence and vehement expression of non-involvement "ironic" with so many agents present? How could Desarno know the FBI would or wouldn't be involved without an investigation or known cause of death? Why all the secrecy and denial? Why the presence of the CIA?
OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT WILCHER'S DEATH
Only a few slight pieces of information have filtered down about public officials and others involved in the Wilcher matter:
Two FBI Agents present at the scene were JAMES V. DESARNO, as remarked, and CRAIG OLSON, both of the D. C. Metropolitan Office: 1900 Half Street SW, Washington DC 20535. (202) 252-7801, both at same address and office.
The DC police officer in charge of investigating the Wilcher death is named BRIAN HENRY, (202) 727-4347.
Coroner for the government is a DR. KIM, who performed the autopsy, the results of which have not been released.
Building superintendent MASON LIDELL (202-543-2751) was questioned by Desarno and others, and has kindly provided information in this letter.
One friend of Wilcher's phoned apartment 302 in Wilcher's building (across from his) and got a taped answer message on the telephone intercom. The message said (paraphrasing) "This is a government telephone line, no longer in service" or words to that effect. Phone records, occupancy etc. from this address should be investigated.
POSSIBLE FURTHER FORENSIC INVESTIGATION:
Given the inconclusive autopsy results, further testing of the forensic evidence would seem to be crucial. Wilcher's body fluids, sent by the D. C. Medical Examiner to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed Hospital, haven't yielded any clue as to cause of death. Apparently coroner Dr. Kim is still in possession of Wilcher's heart.
Sarah McClendon is petitioning Dr. JOYE CARTER of the D. C. Medical Examiner's office to submit this forensic evidence for further study. Dr. Carter hasn't moved with alacrity to permit or facilitate this.
McClendon would like to submit the evidence to a DR. MASON, one of the top forensic toxicologists in the U. S. (Dr. Mason: 2300 Stratford Ave, Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, 215 657-4900). Dr. Mason feels it is extremely significant that no cause of death has been found, a rarity in his experience.
*****
Perhaps, Mme. Attorney General, you can aid in investigating this and other crucial aspects of Paul Wilcher's death. Thank you for any consideration in response to this request
Garby Leon.
Does anyone know where I can find the "Greenbaum Speech" by Cory Hammond(sp?). I had it but lost it after re-formatting.
Got it here
Thanks for the FR Wilcher thread. I hadn't seen it.
BTW, it might interest you to know I contacted Dr. Hammond [reference the "Greenbaum Speech"] by e-mail last year.
He said he had not been in the subject of induced multiple personality disorder [my term] for several years and did not want to discuss it.
http://www.morethanconquerors.simplenet.com/MCF/mcf.html
Can't really blame him. I know he was getting a lot of death threats. I wonder what else happened.
One has to tread carefully with those sites as it's a flip of a coin at best whether they are "controlled".
But that's not to say that one is...
I agree. I haven't looked at it carefully.
I don't know what else might have happened, but it would seem that might be enough.
Either way I'm sure it's monitored.
He got a lot of death threats before he even gave the speech and in the speech said that he doesn't care, that someone needs to speak out. He probably has a family.
I hate when my HD starts whirring for no reason.
Whatta thread (BOOKMARKED!!!)... Don't be too hard on naive Paul... He and Sarah both thought that the Dems were God's gift to America and he probably had no real concept of the "Unseen Hand" or the "Shadow Government." Thus, he saw Reno as a potential savior... Boy, was he wrong! (Besides, she may never have actually received his hand-delivered material; it may have been artfully intercepted by her immediate under(over)lings who really rule the roost at the DOJ while she plays patsy.
James J Angleton is mentioned above in this thread ... The only person I can think of who'd have even a remote chance of answering my question is you, MB1, so here goes...
Reference: the Hugh C MacDonald book (as told to a ghostwriter named Bocca) on the JFK assassination and the hired mercenary "Saul" --
The preface states that certain names and dates and places have been altered to protect identities. I wondered if there was any chance that the CIA chap called "Kimsey" in the book was actually Angleton. If not, who might he be?
BTW, what's your take on this book?
I believe that there was (as David Ferrie evidently used to say according to the Stone/Garrison book) a "triangulation" of shots - - some from the TBD fired by a sharpshooter other than LHO, two according to "Saul" fired from another building nearby perhaps the County Records Building as "Kimsey" said, plus at least one key shot fired from the Grassy Knoll and possibly filmed by Beverly Oliver (film subsequently confiscated never to be seen again).
OK, fire away...(sorry, bad pun... How far wrong am I?
The free firewall zone alarm seems to have fixed my HD.
As someone who's been thoroughly obsessed with the JFK assassination for many years, I thought I'd step in here. James Jesus (yes, that's his real middle name) Angleton has long been looked at suspiciously by Warren Commission critics. He has indeed been rumored to have been a Mossad operative, although the establishment press "spin" portrays him as merely an odd cold warrior trying to locate a Soviet "mole" within the CIA. The McDonald book you refer to is a piece of junk, IMHO. The best books on the assassination were mostly written back in the 1960s. "Accessories After The Fact" by Sylvia Meagher and "Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg are two outstanding books. In more recent years, Walt Brown's "The People Vs. Lee Harvey Oswald" was a real eye-opener, revealing what would have happened had Oswald lived to stand trial. Of course, he places that trial in an honest courtroom, with an honest judge presiding, and that has to be taken into account by the reader. Hope this helps you. Warning-this subject can be really addictive. Trust me, I speak from experience...
Very interesting questions...
I have MacDonald's book [and read it, though sometime back], but don't remember it all that distinctly--perhaps subconsciously because of my recollecting [I trust correctly] of his being too palsy with CIA.
Did he not talk of discussing the assassination on a visit with friends at CIA headquarters?
Yes, I believe a triangulation of fire was done as you proffer, with perhaps even from one or two other disparate locations...
Funny you should ask about Kimsey as I spent some amount of time digging into his background [as an unplanned digression], some of it quite fascinating.
Herman Kimsey, as best as I could tell was a real person, but his interest to me was other than for any attachment to the JFK assassination.
BTW, I saw an obit for him which stated he died of complications from heart surgery. Off the record, my understanding is those complications arose from being given the wrong blood type in a transfusion.
While too long to get into the whole story, Kimsey, it appears, committed a mortal sin against CIA, and that was took a personal interest in a subject that was in opposition to CIA policy. What might that have been?
He was promoting the thesis that the Romanov's never were executed at Ekterinaberg.
He was apparently "chastised" for this by CIA.
How do I know this?
I saw a memo purportedly written by him which clearly conveyed the message he was very contrite about having done so. {Presumably that was not adequate.}
There is considerably more to the controversy over whether the Romanov's actually died [which I looked into for some time] than meets the eye, lending itself to CIA factionalism, including competing secret organizations, and the NWO and the like; not small stuff.
A good starting way to launch into the parable(s) of it all is to do a few searches on one Michael Goleniewski.
One last. I obtained some CIA records concerning their [the CIA's] delving into whether the Romanov's had in fact been executed. What I saw of theirs indicated they [the Romanov's] had not been. You will note from time to time there appears in the media stories that they were executed. Why the reinforcing?
As a follow up to the above-referenced documents, I filed a Freedom of Information request to CIA for any other Romanov-related documents.
The response I received?
"We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of any such records based on the grounds of national security..." [not verbatim, but close]
Okie-doke.
Thanks... I'll try to scrounge up the title you mentioned. I'm still pretty new at this topic. It is and should be an addictive pursuit- - it was truly a coup d'etat in American history.
Wow... you have given me my homework for the month, MB1.
I never imagined that Kimsey was the man's actual name. He was CIA but, as HCMacD mentioned, left the Company early and probably under a cloud. To think that that cloud might have been his own research on the Romanovs is wild... Makes one wonder all the more what was in that dossier that Boris pressed into Bill's hands at their meeting during the Kosovo crisis.
I'll research Michael G. next week and see what my search engines lead me to.
At the risk of imposing on you one more time, do you place any credence in the Tippett switch theory? I didn't at all (except to acknowledge that the Tippett back-of-the-head and upper body X-rays may have be switched for JFK's) but then came that weird episode last summer when JFK's bronze coffin was deep-sixed over the Atlantic! Thirty years later we have DNA analysis technology which tells no lies and an internet poster who thinks part of the Tippett skull or body may have been incorporated into the JFK corpse, possibly at Walter Reed, prior to the "official" Bethesda autopsy whose results went to the Warren Commission and suddenly... Presto, the Dallas bronze coffin is Texas-cided! Coinkydink?
Sorry to take this wonderful thread on Paul Wilcher so far afield into JFK assassination CT, but it all connects back eventually doesn't it? The JFK murder is the Rosetta Stone. The same organization which controlled Gunther and eliminated Paul and his pesky probing cut their teeth on eliminating all the JFK witnesses two decades before.
Yes, the Romanov controversy is full of intrigues, to include the Knight's Templar mystique, though I'm disinclined to believe the documents turned over to Clinton had anything to do with it. JFK material would have done just fine, or, perhaps, files related to Bubba's longstanding CIA affiliation [another CIA front as president]...
You will likely run across two points of interest in delving into the Romanov affair...
One, that the Japanese ruling family is purported to have helped them escape, and the other is, what happened to all the money they [the Romanov's] had stashed in foreign banks [that is, who ended up with it (and consider what that wealth would be worth in today's dollars) and who would have to give it up to the heirs]?
While it's very possible the Tippit switch for JFK could have happened, how germane is it, really, to unraveling the case?
Not very to my way of thinking.
Didn't you mention Sara McClendon on another thread ? Perhaps if you know more about her you could put your comments here.
TL: Interview with Sarah McClendon, 08/30/95
SO: October 1995 Conspiracy Nation Newsletter
An interesting interview. She covers Foster, Waco, Mena and much more.
ftp://ftp.ciagents.com/pub/downloads/text/mcclendo.txt
Sarah McClendon's Washington Report Sarah McClendon
on or about 8-24-97
A thread from FR '97.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a2698.htm
White House Correspondence
Sarah McClendon has dedicated nearly six decades of her life in a relentless effort to raise human rights issues in the mass media. As an independent freelance reporter, she has provided a strong and assertive role model for women in journalism by asking controversial and provocative questions. She has covered the White House for over 50 years--and at 88 continues to work as an analyst and lecturer, appears on countless radio and tv broadcasts, and has recently authored her second book, "My Eight Presidents: Part II.
http://speakers.com/smcclendon.html
I hope this helps.
I just unearthed this bit of trivia:
Reference FYI:
www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/mar/m10-016.shtml
UFO UpDates Mailing List
Philip J. Corso
From: armen victorian <106105.3217@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:37:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:33:47 -0500
Subject: Philip J. Corso
The following might be of interest to proponents of Roswell, and those awaiting Corso's forthcoming book on this topic.
"After the assassination [JFK], Frank Capell was active in disseminating conspiratorial "phase one" stories linking Oswald to Russia and Ruby to Castro's Cuba (20 WH 75, 26 WH 608), some of them apparently from intelligence sources such as Carlos Bringuier's colleagues in the DRE (26 WH 610). Capell was not acting alone: "phase one" stories linking Oswald and Ruby to Communists were circulated by Willoughby's associates PHILIP J. CORSO, a veteran of Army Intelligence who had retired by 1963 to work for the segregationist Senator Strom Thurmond, and Cuban exile Salvador Diaz Verson, a former chief of Cuban military intelligence.
Corso, the army intelligence veteran, was like Willoughby a foe of the CIA from the right, having tangled with the Agency in his years under C. D. Jackson as a member of Eisenhower's Operations Control Board. In 1963-64 Corso and Willoughby were part of a secret rightwing group, the "Shickshinny Knights of Malta" [My Note: Hugh C MacDonald refers to the Knights of Malta and Kimsey, but seems to imply the REAL Knights of Malta, not this group.] (so called after their headquarters in Shickshinny, Pennsylvania, to distinguish them from the more famous Roman Catholic Sovereign Military Order of Malta based in Rome). The group provided a home to dissident retired military officers dissatisfied with the CIA's internationalism, many of them, like Willoughby and General Bonner Fellers, veterans of the old Hunt-MacArthur-Pawley coalition in the early 1950s.
By 1963 the group's leading asset in their anti-CIA propaganda was a Polish intelligence defector, Michael Goleniewski, who had claimed to audiences inside and outside the CIA that the Agency penetrated by the KGB at a high level.
Corso built on this anti-CIA paranoia by telling his friend and fellow Senate staffer Julien Sourwine, who made sure it was relayed to the FBI, that Oswald was tied to a Communist ring inside the CIA, and was doubling as an informant for the FBI. Shickshinny Knight Herman Kimsey, who claimed to have been Goleniewski's handler inside the CIA, also spun an elaborate story about how his CIA duties had put him in touch with Kennedy's assassin - the mystery man in Mexico [My note: "Saul"?] . Finally, the chief press contact of the Shickshinny Knights, Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American, published the claim (soon taken up by Frank Coppel, by the John Birch Society, and by Willoughby's American Security Council) that Oswald, like another alleged KGB assassin (Bogdan Stashynsky) [My Note: Is he "Saul"?], had been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk. Willoughby was in auspicious company, for the Shickshinny Knights had an "Armed Services Committee" that in 1963 read like a Who's Who of retired military men at the extremist fringe. All these "Knights" had been "singled out for their brilliant and outstanding careers as Soldiers of Christ and Advocates of a Free World". Besides Willoughby, they included a number of other members of MacArthur's old team - Brigadier General Bonner Fellers, Lt. General Pedro del Valle, Marine General Lemuel Shepherd. British Admiral Sir Barry Domville, jailed in England during World War Two as a Nazi agent, was also on the list.
So was Colonel Philip J. Corso, a twenty-year Army Intelligence career man until his retirement in August 1963. He had been the military Operations Coordinating Board's delegate to the CIA group planning the 1954 Guatemalan coup.
In 1956 Corso had sought to reactivate fifty surviving garrisons of East European paramilitary units still hanging on in West Germany and tied to the Gehlen spy network. When his Volunteer Freedom Corps, dedicated to rolling back communism, was scuttled as too radical by the Eisenhower administration, Corso attributed the defeat to "lies by our liberal darlings". A staunch foe of what he considered a laissez-faire CIA, Corso testified before Congress on "military muzzling" after General Walker [My Note: remember that Hugh C MacDonald claims that Oswald was paid $100 to shoot bullets near General walker to frighten him; this was a test run for his supposed TBD assignment in Dallas - - to shoot bullets near the President's limosine to show Kennedy and the Secret Service that he was vulnerable and that his security needed strenghthening.] was kicked out of West Germany in 1961.
Upon leaving the Army Intelligence, Corso went to work in 1963 as a "research assistant" for segregationist senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina. And, after the Kennedy's assassination, Corso was among the first to spread rumors hinting that Oswald was tied to a Communist ring inside the CIA - and doubling as an informant for the FBI. Corso once sued the liberal columnist Drew Pearson for defamation - writing about Corso's extremist activities. <
It would be extremely unwise for UFO community researchers to accept Corso's version of the Roswell incident without asking some serious questions on Corso's real intent for such a publication
Armen Victorian [My Note: who is this person?]
Great links... I followed them all. Thanks!
Sarah, in her CN interview, was probably pretty darn close to being right, IMO.
You hit more than a piece of trivia, more like a vein of ore that touches a lot of bases but requires going through it almost on a line by line basis...
Yes, it was the Shickshinny Templars [of Pennsylvania] which Kimsey was tied into I remember some records revealing. Now how they tie into the Knight's Templar, I don't know.
I recollect hearing Corso speak on Bell before. He seemed like a sincere old bird. He stated part of his responsibility in the Army was to delegate to private industry the proceeds from back-engineered objects [fiber optics and night vision technology being two examples]. You might do a search of him on Amazon. Corso died last year...
I don't know who author Armen Victorian is, but it is mix 'n' match mis- and disinformation, though I couldn't say for a fact it is done intentionally [though possibly] considering the vagaries of the players and agendas played out. Take this for one small example. Victorian states that a close confidante of [anti-communist] Corso was Julian Sourwine. That's co-inky-dinkal to me in that I was supplied information several years back that Sourwine was a Soviet agent [the Soviet Union still existent at the time]. Sourwine worked at the State Department. Years later this was suppposedly covered up by his son, who had/has a position in government which afforded him this wherewithal [like a U.S. attorney or some such position at, perhaps [without digging it out], Justice.
What this all would mean is, Corso was confiding in a turncoat.
See how hinky it all gets?
Re Corso: "Back-engineered" as, for example, from Roswell? Hmmm...
Why does this set off a little alarm in back of my brain?
I seem to remember that Marilyn M.'s antepenultimate or penultimate phone call was to some art dealer in New York and that it was recorded by an agent. In it she supposedly spoke of Area 51 type info, claiming that this had been relayed to her by - - you guessed it - - JFK. Some pillowtalk!
Supposedly again, she was about to call a press conf and there were those who thought she'd blackmail the K family of the US govt with this info. In reality, she may simply have been announcing her impending remarriage to Joe DiMaggio, whose son she had also spoken with on the phone the night she was killed.
All these coinkydinks... Info, misinfo, disinfo... I can't sort it all out. Corsa... Sourwine ... spook vs spook stuff...
And now, here's a wee something for you in the form of bedtime reading, MB1:
http://www.npsnet.com/tsarevich_alexei/index.html
Young Alex may well have survived and ended his days in Canada. He outed himself after learning about Michael G. and fearing that the US (CIA) would recognize this impostor as the real Tsar of Russia. Please follow the above URL to read the story of the man who died and was buried as Mr Romanov.
Until next week, MB1. I'm offline as of a few minutes from now and on vacation! In the meantime you have given me much to ponder and research. Thank you once again.
Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, it might be worth mentioning that apparently Gunther is now in poor health, according to Rodney Stich. He's obviously been through a lot in his life; on the tape he shows that he has no fingernails because they were repeatedly pulled out during torture.
Interestingly, in a recent interview by Tony Snow on FOX, Billy Graham said he wasn't sure if he was going to heaven, and that he wasn't the good person the media has portrayed. Snow was so stunned by the answer he asked the question again, and received a similar answer. There may be something to Sullivan's story after all.
Interestingly, in a recent interview by Tony Snow on FOX, Billy Graham said he wasn't sure if he was going to heaven, and that he wasn't the good person the media has portrayed. Snow was so stunned by the answer he asked the question again, and received a similar answer. There may be something to Sullivan's story after all.
Interestingly, in a recent interview by Tony Snow on FOX, Billy Graham said he wasn't sure if he was going to heaven, and that he wasn't the good person the media has portrayed. Snow was so stunned by the answer he asked the question again, and received a similar answer. There may be something to Sullivan's story after all.
Vintage FR.
A very interesting thread with lots of input and a glaring lack of nitwits.
BTW, did you say you have the third edition [I only have the second] of "Defrauding America"?
I understand there's a copy of an affidavit in there by Seal Teams 2 & 4 leader Robert Hunt where he attests to Gunther Russbacher's association with them [or something along that line]...
If so, possible to post it, or the pertinent section?
From page 390:
"CIA operative Robert Hunt described what he knew of the drug trafficking. He recited a list of people involved in Operation New Wave, the heroin operation described to me by Gunther Russbacher. The names given by Hunt included almost all the names Russbacher had listed, including David Fuller, Patrick O'Riley, Michael Cobb, John Woodruff, Brett Sanderson, and Precilla Montemajor. He named Mossad agents, including Robert Silberman, Simon Goldblatt, Ariel Colderman, Delilah Kaufman, and David Turner…"
From page 597:
"Other CIA assets, including Gunther Russbacher and Robert Hunt, had described the role played by the Ireland office of the CIA's Shamrock Corporation in disbursing bribe money to federal judges and other covert agency assets…"
From page 617:
"Another covert operative who confided in me, and who Russbacher confirmed, identified himself as a former Navy SEAL; Robert J. Hunt. Hunt stated that he had joined the U.S. Navy when he was seventeen, just as I did, and was later sheep-dipped into the Office of Naval Intelligence and the CIA. As with any informant, it is necessary to carefully evaluate what is being stated and to crosscheck as much as possible. This I did, and most of what Hunt stated, that I use in these pages, has been corroborated with other sources that I know to be reliable and part of the intelligence network.
"In his CIA/ONI role, Hunt reportedly worked frequently with Israel's Mossad. Hunt's deep-cover status was confirmed to me by Gunther Russbacher and others. I also arranged several conference calls between Russbacher and Hunt, and it was obvious that they had considerable experience in the intelligentce community, and knew of similar operations.
"Hunt said his first assignment was part of the second planned rescure of the American hostages held by Iran in 1980, called Operation Snow Bird. Because the Reagan-Bush group involved in the October Surprise scheme publicized these plans during the 1980 presidential campaign, the rescur operation had to be canceled.
"Hunt provided me with numerous government and other documents and a sworn affidavit (November 18, 1993) briefly describing his intelligence agency activities. These writings provided further corroboration of Hunt's status."
On page 619 the following statement signed by Robert J. Hunt is found:
I, Robert Hunt, declare under penalty of perjury:
1. I am a Lt. Commander in the United States Navy, and have had numerous assignments as a Naval officer, including Commander of Navy Seal Team Two (from 6/85 to 8/87), and Executive Officer of Navy Seal Team Six (from 12/87 to 12/89). My Navy serial number is 002-54-3166. I have been in the U.S. Navy since 1979.
As it relates to Gunther Karl Russbacher:
2. I occasionally worked with or under Gunther Karl Russbacher
3. During my fourteen years working for the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) and National Security Council (NSC), along with regular duty with the U.S. Navy, the Russbacher name was frequently mentioned.
4. I knew him to be an officer in the United States Navy, assigned to the Office of Naval Intelligence, and to the Central Intelligence Agency. It is my belief that when I saw Gunther Russbacher in 1986 that he held the rank of Captain. At that time I was assigned to the National Security Council (NSC).
5. Russbacher acted in part as one of the pilots carrying out duties for the NSC.
6. I saw Russbacher in 1990 while he and I were at Castle Air Force Base.
7. There is no doubt in my mind that Gunther Karl Russbacher was, and probably still is, an officer in the United States Navy, assigned in part to the Office of Naval Intelligence, and the Central Intelligence Agency.
8. For further confirmation of these statements and declarations I can be reached by contacting the following headquater location (or by contacting Rodney Stich, P.O. Box 5, Alamo, CA 94595, Phone 510-944-1930):
NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL
9800 Savage Road
Fort Meade, Maryland 20755
I declare the above statements/declarations to be true and correct, to the best of my knowledge and belief. Executed this 18 day of November 1993, in the City of Springfield, Missouri.
[signed]
Robert J. Hunt
Following this statement are published four letters (relating to intelligence matters) with Hunt's name in them, two of which also mention Gunther Russbacher.
And from page 626:
"Hunt's handlers told Hunt to follow Russbacher to Castle Air Force Base in 1990, after Russbacher returned from the trip to Moscow. Hunt, in various letters, including one dated July 12, 1993, wrote:
'I had orders by my handlers to follow Captain Russbacher. Why was uncertain because you never ask…I think the mission was to do away with Captain Russbacher. I helped the CIA team to get into the base to do it…'"
Thanks, I've credited your account [wink]...
Glad to oblige anytime.
Bmp.
How can I find those Meagher and Weisberg books?
Your local public library should have them. Weisberg's works were first written in the mid-1960s, and the oldest ones might not be there, but his last two, "Case Open" (a point by point rebuttal of Gerald Posner's absurd "Case Closed") and "Never Again" (primarily a refutation of the AMA's president George Lusk and updated medical information) should definitely be there. Both were written in the mid to late 1990s and are very valuable works. Sylvia Meagher's "Accessories After The Fact" is probably the one essential book on this case; it was written in 1967 but it's value has been undiminished by time. You should definitely be able to find it at the library. The only bone I had to pick with her is her ultimate rejection of Jim Garrison. Her meticulous research into the Warren Commission's conclusions, and how they were always contradicted by the evidence in their own Hearings and Exhibits volumes, is classic.
56 Posted on 12/02/2001 13:41:26 PST by Zadokite
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