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2 friends recall Bush serving in Alabama Guard
Associated Press DECATUR, Ala. -- Two friends who worked with George W. Bush in a U.S. Senate campaign in Alabama more than 28 years ago say they remember him serving in the Alabama Air National Guard. "It was pretty well known that he was in the Guard while we worked on the campaign," said Morgan County resident Joe Holcombe. He is former chairman of the Morgan County Republican Party. "I remember one weekend he was not at a campaign staff meeting, and we were told that he was pulling National Guard duty." The question of whether the Texas governor actually served in the Alabama National Guard has become an issue in his campaign for president as the likely Republican nominee. Bush was a member of the Air National Guard in Texas in 1972 when he went to Alabama for more than three months to serve as campaign manager for Winton "Red" Blount's unsuccessful U.S. Senate campaign against Sen. John Sparkman. Records show that Bush was granted permission to transfer his duties in the Texas Air National Guard to Alabama while he worked in the campaign. Authorities said no documents exist that show he actually served on Guard duty while in Alabama. But Holcombe and Emily Martin of Key Biscayne, Fla., said they remember Bush talking about being in the Guard. "He told us that he was having to do his Guard duty in Alabama while he worked on the campaign," said Martin, a former Alabama resident. She said she dated Bush during his time in Alabama. "I remember he actually came back to Alabama for about a week to 10 days several weeks after the campaign was over to complete his Guard duty in the state," Martin said in a telephone interview with the Decatur (Ala.) Daily from her Florida home. "We both were single at the time he was in Alabama, and we went out a lot," she said. "I have fond memories of those times. Although I never actually drove him to Guard duty, he told me that he went and there is no reason for me to believe that he did not go." Holcombe and Martin were paid campaign workers in the 1972 election. Bush was asked about his Alabama Guard duty last month when he visited Tuscaloosa, Ala. "I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one time," Bush said. "I made up some missed weekends. I can't remember what I did, but I wasn't flying because they didn't have the same airplanes. I fulfilled my obligations."
Holcombe said he came forward after reading that Bush's campaign was looking for people who served with him to verify his story.
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"I remember one weekend he was not at a campaign staff meeting, and we were told that he was pulling National Guard duty."
If GWB was AWOL,why was he given an honorable discharge?Would not he been arrested in stead? FYI and DISCUSSION.
Another lie by the Bush-haters is exposed, but the truth will never catch up with the lie. Don't look for any apologies from the Bush-bashers, here or anywhere else.
I know and it's a shame, or rather I should say shame on them!
A Bush bump to you.
No, he would not have been arrested. He would have been "activated." I believe NG/Reservists were permitted 5 or 6 absentees (unexcused) and then activated to finish their hitch on active duty.
BTTT
CALLING LUG NUT......WHERE ARE YOU?????
I can think of a bunch of ways this could have happened. I finished advanced training the first week in December, 1967. I was not due at my next post until the middle of January (the next post was Vietnam). The officer in charge of leave said "Why don't you go home; there's nothing for you to do here."
I suspect there were a lot of informal arrangements, especially for people on make-work assignments.
I also believe, based on personal experience, the the records kept during this period were not careful or complete. I have found several service numbers on my personal copies of my records.
A well-documented article for thread edification .
Last I checked, McCain is STILL NOT the nominee!
NO, NO, He wasn't in the Alkabams Natl Guard. He was with me in Korea, and Augsberg, Germany in WWII.
Sorry. Your post is not "edifying," especially since it appeared in the Salon-wannabe TomPaine.com.
Give up the military angle. Bush was honorably discharged. Pat never served.
Authorities said no documents exist that show he actually served on Guard duty while in Alabama.
Yes and by the same token no documents have been produced that show he didn't serve on Guard duty while in Alabama. I think that's the critical part. For if he wasn't doing his duty then something would have been done. Vietnam needed warm bodies.
It is not uncommon for a Guard or Reserve member to be able to arrange in advance to complete their MUTAs with another unit when circumstances merit such consideration. That's not to say that there wasn't some level of political "awareness" in progress in this particular case -- but, on its face, there's nothing sinister that happened.
For example, if a California Guard member were compelled to attend job-related training in New York for 120 Days, they could coordinate arrangements to fulfill their duty obligations while in New York. Such a Guard member would not necessarily be compelled to travel across the country every 30 days for the sole purpose of attending weekend drills for a relatively temporary period of time.
"If GWB was AWOL,why was he given an honorable discharge?Would not he been arrested in stead?"
They only started looking after thirty days when you became a deserter. I was AWOL nemerous times, once for six months and have an honorable discharge. Anyway, who cares? This is less than a non-starter.
Well, aren't you the logical one!!! Congratulations!! I just love it when someone here comes up with the definitive smell test to root out those spinning skunks in the Gore camp.
I certainly held no pretensions of edifying you, sinkspur.
Which article is more well-documented? I only link out of service to the lurkers.
On Crossfire last week (or perhaps the week before - when this first came out) Idiot Press actually called him AWOL and sneered as if he were a 'deserter.' Amazing, since their beloved Clinton used his time to burn American flags in Russia.
Wouldn't I love to see that creep sued for slander.
'Which article is more well-documented?'
Considering the only source it relied upon was the ultra-left-wing rag The Boston Globe, I'd say this article.
Great article and good post...it won't slow them down but we have to keep trying.
Don't forget the Dallas Morning News, the Los Angeles Times and the Australian Sun.
center off?
'Don't forget the Dallas Morning News, the Los Angeles Times and the Australian Sun.'
Those sources were irrelevant to the question of whether he served in the Gurad or not. The Boston Globe was the lone source for that.
WOW!!!! Are there any depths that the media will NOT suck up a Democratic smear campaign about Bush?
Is there ANYTHING the national media will not use to "discredit" Bush - while ignoring Gore's blantant lies and more lies and more lies and more lies?
He goes to AL for several months - okay - that's LEGAL. He has National Guard duty - yes, he does...is this controversial? He works out a LEGAL way to join duty with AL - SAVING TAX DOLLARS for transporation/jet fuel..... and so he does it.
Any problems yet? He evidently really goes and does national guard duty ... do we NEED eye-witnesses to see a nameless pilot on duty for a couple of weekends in AL in 1968-70 timeframe in the middle of a WAR?
BUT - in the meantime, Gore's politcal press has written a story to cast more doubts about Bush - which in their weak minds - excuses Gore's ignorance and "forgetfulness" .......
OK. But again, I only provided the link in service to the pursuit of truth. Don't shoot the messenger.
I also believe, based on personal experience, the the records kept during this period were not careful or complete. I have found several service numbers on my personal copies of my records.
I don't know if it was you or someone else(possibly on lucianne.com)who've said the same thing about the poor way of keeping records in the military.
Thanks kattracks.I'm sure that there'll be more who will come forward.
One of the things I don't understand is why the military's way of keeping their records is so bad?
I'm sure he and a few others will come by, all disappointed, and questioning this report.
'OK. But again, I only provided the link in service to the pursuit of truth.'
In pursuit of the truth, I looked up one of the references from the article from US News (Nov 11, 1999) and it didn't support what the 'well documented' article stated it did. See
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991101/lost.htm
I'm sure he and a few others will come by, all disappointed, and questioning this report.
NO, NO, He wasn't in the Alkabams Natl Guard. He was with me in Korea, and Augsberg, Germany in WWII.
Hilarious! This is the kind of thing that the Pitchfork/Conspiracy crowd loves!
It's actually not "quit" as bad as this suggests. While you are on duty status (active or reserve) just about everything you need concerning an individual can be found in their records. Occassionally information that is not important to qualifications, pay, etc., is culled.
Once a person leaves the service, much is culled and what's left is archived. At the same time, there are as many filing errors, etc., as any large organization will have.
My guess is the huge bureaucracy.
My brother joined the Army Reserves in 1956 [to fulfill his "military obligation" - an honorable concept back then] and completed his full 7 years of active duty, meetings and summer camps in 1963. He later got a DRAFT NOTICE, they couldn't "find" his Army Reserves records and so he had to SHOW UP FOR INDUCTION with his own copies so they could actually straighten it out.
It is no wonder that SNAFU was a popular military term.
Pat never served.
Pat would have served, sinkspur, but couldn't because of rhuematoid arthritis in his legs.
Yes and by the same token no documents have been produced that show he didn't serve on Guard duty while in Alabama. I think that's the critical part. For if he wasn't doing his duty then something would have been done.
Excellent point and needs to be repeated - The Guard would have done something to rectify the situation!!!!
That's right Pat had a bad knee. Funny, all of his brothers had some sort of disqualifying condition as well. That many sons and not one of them capable of being drafted.
But I'm sure Pat would have willingly served. SURE! He did, him and Clinton served in the same outfit during the war.
They only started looking after thirty days when you became a deserter
SO,are you trying to say after ALL OF THIS TIME - he wouldn't have been been determined to be AWOL?!!!You would think,wouldn't you, that GWB would have been declared AWOL!! What's taken them so long? This charge is just ridiculous!
I realize a lie is sometimes hard to let go of,but please give it a try!
Many Korean/WW2 vets lost ALL records in the Personnel Center fire in St.Louis, circa 1977. VA has lost my records twice. I have found several mistakes in my 201 file. Took over 2 years to get them corrected!
I still have "muster calls" from my Great Grandfather's Civil War days. Basically, they just took a head count, those not "present" were deemed dead. I would think there would be some record SOMEWHERE of GWB being at roll-calls, etc. Obviously if he were TDY somewhere, records would exist. Change of station etc. I have orders showing EVERY unit assignment, at least down to Regt. level.
However, if someone is absent, without doctor excuse/orders/deployment, etc from NG/Reserve mtg. for over 5 or 6 mtg. he would be notified by registered mail-return receipt required. Then he would be "activated" about 30 days after last absence. Failing to appear would of course result in a warrant being issued.
Pat would have served, sinkspur, but couldn't because of rhuematoid arthritis in his legs.
That's one explanation. I've also read, on this very forum, that Pat cited another malady which, apparently and unbeknownst to Pat, could only by caused by gonorrhea.
But, whatever works.
Nobody's making a big deal out of Pat's non-service on the Republican side. Nor is Pat trying to make anything out of the smelly Boston Globe story about Bush.
Maybe we shouldn't either.
I would too.And you know,it's almost laughable,that some of these same people who are calling GWB AWOL,don't see the hypocricy in their position on Clinton who went to England to keep from serving and then visited Russia,like you just said,to burn the American flag!Or Buchanan who NEVER served in the Military at all!
I sure like this photo. Such a clean cut young man,willing to fly a fighter plan that BI-Bob Dornan said takes a lot of guts!
Thanks CWOJackson.We have to do what we can and from whatever source we can find it.I imagine that it must have galled the Austin-American to print this article!
Well, folks, you read all about it here!
Don't expect to read about it anywhere else.
You're absolutely right.A bump to you!
The plane he flew was hot and "dangerous". Remember, Dean Martin's son died when the Air National Guard jet fighter he was flying crashed.
Just like Governor Bush, he didn't have to be flying with the Air National Guard, but he thought it was his duty to his country.
In pursuit of the truth, I looked up one of the references from the article from US News (Nov 11, 1999) and it didn't support what the 'well documented' article stated it did. See
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991101/lost.htm
Boy,oh boy, are you good!
Once a person leaves the service, much is culled and what's left is archived. At the same time, there are as many filing errors, etc., as any large organization will have.
But when a person is temporarily transferred - wouldn't that be considered important or not? I also wonder what kind of archives they had back then?
This attempt to smear GW as AWOL is just the beginning. As Gorey crowd gets more desperate the tactics will become even more dirty!
It is no wonder that SNAFU was a popular military term.
I didn't know that.I bet your brother sure was glad he had his copies!He must have thought to do that from horror stories he'd heard.
I still have "muster calls" from my Great Grandfather's Civil War days. Basically, they just took a head count, those not "present" were deemed dead.
I know that this isn't really funny but I can't help chuckling at it?!
A lot depends on where Governor Bush left the Air National Guard; much of his files would have be archived there. But as far as actual weekend drills, the dates and type of duty he did would be unimportant for long term records (unless it impacted a qualification, such as flight time).
What would be important is that he did drill time for pay/service commitment purposes. More then likely any records that exist today would simply indicate whether he fulfilled his drilling requirements (x number of days of duty for a drill year) and not much else.
If he had failed to meet his drilling requirements it would be noted.
I'm not a betting person,but I wager that none of the mainline media,and cable(except,maybe Fox) will even mentin this.
Post on lucianne.com? What do you take me for?
Seriously, I have posted this before on FR.
I am certain, however, the AWOL would be remembered, as would a verbal reprimand.
My guess for worst case scenereo is that Bush had nothing to do (he wasn't flying) and was therefore invisible. Says nothing about whether he was there.
I had forgotten about Dean Martin's son or that he was flying a National Guard plane at the time of his death.
I believe it too.I dread what they're going to try and come up with doing or right after the convention.The DNC has no shame!
I'm not a betting person,but I wager that none of the mainline media,and cable(except,maybe Fox) will even mentin this.
That's as close to a "sure thing" as I've ever heard!
If he had failed to meet his drilling requirements it would be noted.
At the time he had a fairly popular TV series, "The Misfits of Science" or something like that. A very young Courtney Cox got her start on that show I believe.
He was an interesting young man. Even though it was peace time, he felt that he owed it to his country to help defend it. A lot of people, who didn't need to, served their country through guard or reserve service.
During WWII, a young Arthur Feidler, joined the Coast Guard Reserve. They would have to cancel concerts because he was walking a pier somewhere carrying a rifle. He refused to allow the Coast Guard Reserve to give him any special exceptions, so if his duty fell on concert night the concert would be cancelled.
Post on lucianne.com? What do you take me for?
Sorry(smile)Did you catch the small war they had going on one day last week?I hate to admit it,but it was so funny!
"If he had failed to meet his drilling requirements it would be noted."
Yes, in more then one location.
You're right CWOJackson,Dean's son sounded like an interesting young man.I don't think Dean ever got over it.Seems like his health and his desire to be stage went down after that.That's an interesting story about Fiedler(sp.?)as well.
...Pat cited another malady which, apparently and unbeknownst to Pat, could only by caused by gonorrhea.
Wait 'til AAPatriot, Jethro Tull, et al, find out that Pat had the clap
no documents have been produced that show he didn't serve on Guard duty while in Alabama.
-------------------------------------
No documents have been produced to show I didn't serve on guard duty in Alabama during the same period. Where the hell is Alabama, anyway?
Was that the guy who posted the same message 500 times? I saw it and even reported it here, but I don't know and don't care what it was about. I only check lucianne when things are real sloooooowww here or the server is down.
Good point, LiB. MAybe they ought to explain that. A BUMP to you.
Well done.
My guess for worst case scenario is that Bush had nothing to do (he wasn't flying) and was therefore invisible.
And that's exactly what it was. There was nothing for him to do there, but he reported. Nobody cared who the heck he was, and they had no use for him.
And surprise, surprise, nobody really remembers him from then 30 years later.
Yawn...
"If GWB was AWOL,why was he given an honorable discharge?Would not he been arrested in stead? FYI and DISCUSSION."
This is another tempist in a tea pot to discredit GW. He was there. They say there is no record. I don't believe it.
"Pat would have served, sinkspur, but couldn't because of rhuematoid arthritis in his legs."
Yeah, Sink...and he would of been a HERO! Yeah, that's it...If it wasn't for that damned trick knee, Pat woulda been a hero...
Speaking as someone facing knee replacement in two months due to oseoarthitis, I can't fault PJB for being 4f... PJB did not serve in any capacity in the military. So what. He at least had an excuse. Gore may have gone to Viet Nam, but it was all for show. W flew jet fighters stateside, but could have died easily in a simple training mission. None of these guys is a "war hero" by any stretch and none of their supporters have any room to slap the other guy's for their military records.
Why don't we get off this military service BS and concentrate on the real issues.
Speaking of that, is it true that neither Pat nor any of his brothers ever served? Why not?
What we need to investigate is why Gore was sent home from Vietnam after five months, when the rest of his unit was reassigned in country until their year was up.
Amazing, since their beloved Clinton used his time to burn American flags in Russia
Let's not forget Mr. Clinton did NOT show up for TWO -- count 'em -- TWO inductions! He was actually ordered to show up for induction and just didn't go!
Oh, my! Lug Nut will go crazy when he sees this! This is one to bookmark - it will undoubtedly be needed in the future. I hope somebody sends it to Bill Press, the snake in the grass. I always knew that Gov Bush would not have done anything dishonorable to his country. I was never worried about this at all.
Hey, Pat is an honorable man . Please don't try to smear him by associating him with Clintonesque behavior . Disagree with him on issues, if necessary, but you don't need to smear
I thought I read Gore got out of Viet Nam early so he could enter divinity school. You know, the ole "Praise the Lord and Pass The Ammunition" resume building dual career track. I think the interesting thing would be to see how long he actually attended divinity school, and was that before, after, or during the time he played Jimmy Olson for the Nashville newspaper.
Oh, my! Lug Nut will go crazy when he sees this!
I think he should be she
Yes, and the response(outrage) of "ANTI-MEDIA".Some of it was hilarious!
Hi Big Steve - glad to see you come on board!
Thanks archy - I can't believe it's been that long since Dean's son was killed!
Texas Mom - I can't for the life of me believe that the National Guard would give an Honorable Discharge to someone who was AWOL - can you?!
. I always knew that Gov Bush would not have done anything dishonorable to his country. I was never worried about this at all.
The same here Wait4Truth! This shows,once again,how desperate the Democrats are!
Authorities said no documents exist that show he actually served on Guard duty while in Alabama.
This coming from a bunch that can't even 'find' their own E-mail!
Good find, Lady In Blue! Apparently he didn't have body guards like AlGore!
"I think the interesting thing would be to see how long he actually attended divinity school"
Prove me wrong, but I believe he flunked GOD!
If GWB was AWOL,why was he given an honorable discharge?Would not he been arrested in stead?
You're sooooo smart. : )
Just found this AP story which I think is designed to make the GOP consider something that would actually hurt BUSH. I can't believe that Liddy Dole or Whitman would help him!
Poll: Dole Good GOP Running Mate
By WILL LESTER
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) - Two women, Elizabeth Dole and Christie Whitman, rank with the strongest potential candidates to be George W. Bush's running mate, says a survey that measured the appeal of various Republican and Democratic lineups.
Two men were judged the strongest GOP candidates for vice president in the national poll by Intersurvey. But both of them - retired Gen. Colin Powell and Sen. John McCain - have said they don't want the job.
Dole, the former GOP presidential candidate and Red Cross president, had an average of 55 percent support when teamed with Bush in matchups against possible Democratic tickets, trailing only Powell at 62 percent and McCain at 58 percent.
The poll also tested New Jersey Gov. Whitman, Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge, Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson and Oklahoma Gov. Frank Keating.
The presence of a woman on the ticket could whittle away at the Democrats' usual advantage with female voters, the poll suggested.
Aside from Powell and McCain, ``the male running mates performed better among Republicans but failed to attract independents or Democrats'' in strong numbers, said Doug Rivers, chief executive at Intersurvey and a political scientist at Stanford.
Democrats named in the poll as possible running mates for Vice President Al Gore were former presidential candidate Bill Bradley, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh, California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Illinois Sen. Richard Durbin.
Bradley, who did the best, has said he will not be on the ticket. Next came Kerry, Bayh and Feinstein. For the Republicans, after Dole's 55 percent average with Bush came Whitman at 52 percent, Ridge 50 percent, Thompson 49.5 percent and Keating 49 percent. Among the Democrats - their numbers show the average GOP result against their ticket with Gore so a lower number is better - it was Bradley at 49.5 percent, Kerry 52 percent, Bayh 53 percent, Feinstein 54 percent, Rubin 55 percent and Durbin 57 percent. How much does a running mate matter? ``I think people are looking at the guys on the top of the ticket to see who's on their side and if they will take the country in the right direction,'' said Doug Hattaway, a Gore spokesman.
Bush campaign spokesman Scott McClellan agreed the presidential candidates and their agendas will be the primary factor in the votes, but said Bush is ``looking at a diverse group of men and women.'' The poll of 6,788 adults was taken between June 24-27 and has an error margin of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. Intersurvey plans to do similar surveys later in the year.
Intersurvey combines polling techniques, using random telephone dialing to pick respondents and then providing them with new technology such as Web access. That access allows the respondents to see pictures, for example, perhaps affecting usual polling factors such as differences in voters' recognition of the candidates.
Posted here by Jethro Clampett
Hi Julie,thanks for posting this.I think I heard something on the radio yesterday about this poll.It's kind of sickening isn't it?GWB doesn't need them to tell him who to pick.Liddy Dole may be a nice lady,but I don't think she's ready for prime time and Whitman - she already knows that she is not going to be picked.Did you hear her comments late last week.Something to the effect that if she was asked,she would be foolish not to want it but that she didn't believe that she would be asked because of her "Pro-Choice" position.Christy,you got that right!!!
2 Friends Recall Bush Serving In Alabama Guard
Cool!
Two burgers medium rare, George, hold the tomato...1000 Island dressing on the salad...and if you serve it with a smile, I'll leave you a big tip!
Christy is the darling of the liberal lefties in Metro NY area. SAhe was on a C-Span forum with 'perky Katie'; Gloria Steinem, Donna Shalala, Mary Tyler Moore a few months ago & they were all gushing over her for her "pro-choice" stand! Dole would bring back too many memories of the loss in'96 and it is time for Bob to retire. We don't need him as "Second" Husband of the country!
Prove me wrong, but I believe he flunked GOD!
Gore answers the God test:
1. I dont remember attending a class on that.
2. I think I was drinking alot of iced tea that day....,
3. Well if you mean by God a supreme being that might mean one thing but if you have another definition....
4.There is no controlling legal authority...
"Texas Mom - I can't for the life of me believe that the National Guard would give an Honorable Discharge to someone who was AWOL - can you?!"
Of course not. These people are scraping the bottom of the barrow to find something that will stick to GW and this isn't it.
2 Friends Recall Bush Serving In Alabama Guard.
But isn't that the whole point -- he got out "early" while all the other people in his unit were reassigned to other jobs in Vietnam.
Let's talk about favoritism. I don't remember divinity school being a reason for early out; I could be wrong, but if I am, I'd be interested in knowing when Al got the "calling"..........LOL.
I don't understand the conflict here. We have Bush with pictures in uniform, people stating that they knew him in the guard...etc.
Now we have Gore, a pampered little rich kid, going to Vietnam as a REMF, with a bodyguard and serving only 5 months not the usual 12 served by everyone else. He was a reporter for the Stars & Strips...a really dangerous job !
BUT, the real rub for those of us who served on the line...the lying sob, is trying to make us believe he was a combat soldier. This wannabee is a disgrace to every man who sacrificed in that war. Gore is just another version of Clinton without the "polish"...."birds of a feather" !
Its time that the majority WAKES UP, a 3rd party vote only helps Gore, Bush is not the BEST for the office, but he is the only "viable" condidate on the conservative side. Perfect NO, but a step in the RIGH direction !
Julie -- they're all running scared and I love watching these cornered rats try to throw a monkey wrench into the well-run campaign of "W". Algore is drowning and the liberal-lying press is trying their utmost to throw him a life raft. That deceitful crybaby was on Good Morning America this morning, complaining of erroneous ads by pharmaceutical companies, promising to get to the bottom of who was paying for them (innuendo was Bush). What should have been a one minute spot turned out to be 5 to 8 minute FREE AIR TIME with Diane Sawyer inviting more. As expected, his closing caustic comment was to invite Bush to agree to debate these 'corrupt ads'. What I witnessed was a pitiful, scared little boy running home to his mama to complain about someone mistreating him. Very presidential!
(re: Bill Press)Wouldn't I love to see that creep sued for slander. My fantasy would be to have Press/Lanny Davis,Carvile, Julian Epstein and Whorealdo named in the same suit AFTER the Clintons are indicted.
Oops. I meant to say algore was complaining about the medicare ads. BTW today is "W"'s birthday and I wish we could give him the oval office as a gift. He will have to wait a few more months for the belated gift.
Yes, I know it is his Birthday!
I sent him a card with another check! And I pray every day he's our next President!!!
One of the things I don't understand is why the military's way of keeping their records is so bad?
In Vietnam era? Lots of people who don't want to be there.
In Guard units? A lesser level of professionalism, and a generally more casual attitude.
In TDY units? Well you don't really belong to them. All they really care about is that nothing goes really wrong. In this case, he went on TDY, and his records didn't return with him.
Surprising that most of the Brigade Bilge haulers are avoiding this thread. Only Either/Or turned up to dutifully take his punishment.
I am still interested in the answer to the question of why none of Pat's brothers served. Pat was awfully hawkish about Vietnam but has turned into a dove when he is not working for a hawk. Shows great integrity.
"Disagree with him on issues, if necessary, but you don't need to smear."
Okay, issue: none of the Buchanan boys were eligible for the draft...they all founds some excuse to avoid wearing the uniform of their country. So did Clinton.
Notice how Lug Nut is strangely silent on this thread.
The liberal lie-meister Lug Nut rolls on....
Thanks for pointing out this thread to me....I totally missed it! And I would hate to have missed it, because it gave me a huge belly-laugh!
His ex-girlfriend and the GOP county chairman (both former employees)come forward with HEARSAY about his service? Pardon me while I guffaw for another ten minutes.
Is this the best they can do?????
You're backing a lying loser who shirked his duty and is trying to cover it up. Deal with it.
Also deal with the fact that Karen Hughes wrote "Charge to Keep."
"Texas Mom - I can't for the life of me believe that the National Guard would give an Honorable Discharge to someone who was AWOL - can you?!"
His discharge papers do not list any service for the year 1972-73, the year in which he was AWOL. His other earlier completed obligations are listed.
If his service was completed, wouldn't he ask that his discharge papers reflect that?
And why, indeed, would someone whose service was dishonorable receive an honorable discharge. Could it have been FIXED because of his father's status?
There's an easy resolution to this: he can just produce his tax return for 1972. Guard income would be reflected. Gee. Maybe he didn't file for 1972. That was one of his "nomadic" years, he says.
Bush's discharge papers show no service for the time he says he was in Alabama. The commanding officer in Alabama has no recollection of Bush serving there. Are you calling him a liar?
"Oh, my! Lug Nut will go crazy when he sees this! This is one to bookmark - it will undoubtedly be needed in the future. I hope somebody sends it to Bill Press, the snake in the grass. I always knew that Gov Bush would not have done anything dishonorable to his country. I was never worried about this at all."
Some of us require just a wee bit more proof than an old ex-girlfriend repeating hearsay. I believe the word of the commanding officer trumps the girlfriend's blurry memory of what was said.
And you ought to worry about this, because it is the issue that can break the campaign, and a lot of people are sniffing around it.
His ex-girlfriend and the GOP county chairman (both former employees)come forward with HEARSAY about his service? Pardon me while I guffaw for another ten minutes.
Two people saw him there. Chew on that.
Of course I don't expect you to accept two witnesses. You wouldn't accept videotape.
PS: Bush will win, and undo the 8 years of corruption rendered by your guy.
Also deal with the fact that Karen Hughes wrote "Charge to Keep."
No problem. Many politicals hire ghostwriters, however, the pols in question contribute to the work. I'll even concede that Hillary contributed to her ghostwritten works.
And you ought to worry about this, because it is the issue that can break the campaign,
Oh, please pursue this. Please use this as your make-or-break issue. Go to your employers at the DemonCrap Nazional Committee and convince them this is the best attack to make.
PLEASE do this.
"It is not uncommon for a Guard or Reserve member to be able to arrange in advance to complete their MUTAs with another unit when circumstances merit such consideration."
The difference here is that he didn't report to his new TDY in Alabama, and then he didn't report back to Texas ANG when he returned to Texas several months later. There is a whole year not accounted for in his service. He would have blown off the whole thing if his annual review in May of 1973 didn't send someone off looking for him.
The commanding officer in Alabama has no recollection of Bush serving there. Are you calling him a liar?
My CO had no recollection of me being at AT last year. But I was there. Not every OIC knows every last thing. Furthermore, he said he has NO RECOLLECTION, not the same thing as saying he wasn't there.
However, do not let me dissuade you as chosing this as your primary attack. Please, forge on!
The liberal lie-meister Lug Nut rolls on....
He/she continues to shill for his/her master, Knothead Owlgore.
I just hope this military service thing is actually Algores primary attack!!!
But isn't that the whole point -- he got out "early" while all the other people in his unit were reassigned to other jobs in Vietnam.
I recall quite a bit about the "early out" program in 1967-68. First you had to finish a year in Nam. Then if you had less than five months of service left, you were eligible for early separation when you got back to the states. But first you had to have a year in country.
About the two-year enlistment, I never heard of that, and I was shopping pretty hard. The best deal I found was to volunteer for the draft. I got to pick my induction date, but that was the only benefit. No promise of a cushy job. One guy in my basic training company had a masters degree in history. He was assigned to the MPs and went to Saigon. Not the most dangerous job in the world, but not the safest either.
I'm calling nobody a liar..... Are you just because there are no papers the prove he wasn't there?
By the way McCain lost.
"I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one time," Bush said. "I made up some missed weekends. I can't remember what I did, but I wasn't flying because they didn't have the same airplanes. I fulfilled my obligations."
Of course he don't remember. He was not only AWOL but no doubt drunk and AWOL
Holcombe said he came forward after reading that Bush's campaign was looking for people who served with him to verify his story.
So let us know when you do find someone who SERVED with him. They can't all be dead.
Another thing - I think it is/was illegal (or at least against regulation) to appear in uniform at campaign functions as Gore did. Bet the press won't be researching that though.
"Texas Mom - I can't for the life of me believe that the National Guard would give an Honorable Discharge to someone who was AWOL - can you?!"
Son, you ain't AWOL less they says you AWOL. Give it up.
You have never been in the military, or you would know several things:
Flying any military aircraft is a lot more dangerous than flying any typewriter.
All records are screwed up.
Anyone trying to cook the books would have made sure they weren't incomplete.
Now go home.
Some of us require just a wee bit more proof than an old ex-girlfriend repeating hearsay.
So you will vote for W if this gets cleared up.
LOL
Some of us used to require a president to be more than than a draft-dodging chicken doot. We wanted more, and we got more. We got a rapist.
Now we are looking for more, but in the other direction.
What we have here is a big puffy argument about which little rich princeling is the more qualified 'military man'. What a joke !! Actually I consider it an insult to alot of real soldiers who didn't have the 'Richey-Rich' political family connections to carefully shuffle them off into some safe slot in '67.
I'm reminded of the opening scene in Gladiator when the young prince comes riding up breathlessly with his entourage AFTER the battle, trying so hard to appear soldierly.
Didn't we fight a war at sometime to keep us from being ruled by such phonies ... the priviledged 'political' family dynasties?
This whole situation is disgusting and revolting and reminds me of what I use to believe only went on in places like Russia.
WELCOME TO THE CORPORATE-GOVERNMENT EMPIRE ... aka THE USSA
YOu know what, CIBvet? You are going to have to live with the fact that George Bush is who he is, and that is the way the cookie crunbles. You sound like you are jealous, a very unflattering attitude for a guy, in my opinion.
Here is something just for all you Bush-bashers:
Please show us the pictures of Mr. Buchanan in a jet. Thank you.
"Two people saw him there. Chew on that."
What a maroon. Two people (a girlfriend/employee and another employee) say they SAW HIM IN ALABAMA. They didn't/couldn't say they saw him do guard duty, which is the matter in question. Their statements are worse than worthless. Nada. Zip.
What a maroon. Two people (a girlfriend/employee and another employee) say they SAW HIM IN ALABAMA. They didn't/couldn't say they saw him do guard duty, which is the matter in question.
Associated Press, Wednesday, July 5, 2000
DECATUR, Ala. -- Two friends who worked with George W. Bush in a U.S. Senate campaign in Alabama more than 28 years ago say they remember him serving in the Alabama Air National Guard. "It was pretty well known that he was in the Guard while we worked on the campaign," said Morgan County resident Joe Holcombe. He is former chairman of the Morgan County Republican Party.
"I remember one weekend he was not at a campaign staff meeting, and we were told that he was pulling National Guard duty."
.........for the true maroon in this conversation.
Do you know that's a trainer he's sitting in?
You're pretty selective in the posts you respond to. What kinds of trainers have you flown? Tell us about your military experience and how many military friends you have.
What do you not understand about the concept of the term "HEARSAY"?
Geez. You'd better pray that no one with your grasp of "proof" sits ever in judgment of you.
"You're pretty selective in the posts you respond to."
FR is loading VERY slowly for me today. Taking ten minutes or so to pull up the thread. Don't worry. I'll get back to you later when it's faster.
And no. I didn't fly any trainers. I raised a family. But, then again, I'm not running for president and posing as a glamorous flyboy.
Life is not court.
Get over yourself.
And why should I take your word that it is a trainer? And who cares if it is a trainer? It seems to me at some point all pilots must fly in trainers.
Bush ALSO raised a family, so your specious comment is irrelevant. Please show me Mr. Buchanan in a TRAINER plane, then. Pfui.
I don't think any of the candidates are bragging about their service. And the Democrats, except for a few expendable peons like you, will never risk a public comparison of records. Clinton's behavior was so dishonest and shameful that he sets the gold standard for chicken poop. Neither Bush nor Gore can touch this.
Like others on this thread I applaud you for wasting your time on Bush's military record. It will keep you off the streets and out of trouble. But unless you find a reprimand in his record you have nothing. Good luck.
Two people (a girlfriend/employee and another employee) say they SAW HIM IN ALABAMA.
I went to WalMart today; I didn't see ANYBODY I knew there; I guess I wasn't there.
Very wrong Ms Marple ... I am not even a wee bit jealous of George Jr's service record.
See that little gold bar on his c___ cap? Well in '67 mine (when it was worn) was black for a reason, and muddy and wet most of the time, and it stayed that way for most of a year. But as most who wore one we earned it alone ... w/o 'special handling' or 'hand carrying'. I started as an E-1.
Nobody greased the first damn skid for me or any of the guys I knew and served beside ... NO specially placed calls to get us into some (impossible to get into at the time, but definitely safe) 'State-Side', N.ot G.oin' outfit ... NO 'lucky'(yea sure) appointment to a soon to be obsoleted flight school -- playin' around with old, fun, expensive, and just so happens undeployable, military toys ... NO opportunities to disappear or be excused, for months on end to play TDY to one of my rich Senator-daddy's pol-pals' campaign, or do a phony short-tour as a REMF.
No Ms.Marple, I'd have to say NONE of the military men I knew had anything in common with fortunate son Bush, OR fortunate son Gore, and so, unlike their besotted followers, we have no problem whatsoever seeing through this absolutely WEAK and sickening choice for president, between 'spoiled-rich-boy son of a rich politician 'A', and 'spoiled-rich-boy son of a rich politician 'B'.
But you go ahead .... fawn away on your Corporately-annoited Princeling, just don't try to sell either as as anything less than a "Fortunate Son", to those of us who know a genuine article. It's an insult, and WE GAG.
"Life is not court."
Obviously. But some people don't consider that license to ignore principles of fair play as they seek answers to questions where impropriety appears to exist.
Others follow a merry, simplistic path, adjusting what comes your way so that it suits your agenda, too often denying truth and refusing to examine what needs to be examined.
That modus operandi makes you (and others) simply a tool for propagandists and power-seekers.
Would you, as a veteran, support George if incontrovertible proof became available that he was AWOL?
Thank you for your insightful comments.
It's important to remember that it's going to be increasingly difficult to have presidential candidates who endured what you endured in service of your country.
But at the same time, we shouldn't have to accept candidates who shirked the duty they volunteered for, simply because it was inconvenient to one's party-hearty lifestyle.
Bush wants unearned credit and is willing to fudge the truth here and there to look bigger than he is. In his ill-fated campaign for congress, he even repeatedly claimed that he had served in the U.S. Air Force, in his campaign literature! He continually portrays his NG service as being a pilot through 1973, when he was grounded in 1972 for refusing the flight physical.
This is the story of his life. There's a pattern. Shirking and slacking, and then posing as a winner despite evidence to the contrary.
If he's lying about this, what else is he lying about? (Well, we have several pretty good ideas.)
"And why should I take your word that it is a trainer? And who cares if it is a trainer? It seems to me at some point all pilots must fly in trainers. Bush ALSO raised a family, so your specious comment is irrelevant. Please show me Mr. Buchanan in a TRAINER plane, then. Pfui."
Okay, you've totally stopped making sense now. Better stick to threads that don't require logical parallels.
"I went to WalMart today; I didn't see ANYBODY I knew there; I guess I wasn't there."
Next time read the whole thread, and you'll get the context of the remarks.
I have stopped making sense? You have been beating this dead horse for almost 2 weeks now. Howlin's logic is exactly correct. YOU need a course in logic, my dear.
It amazes me what snobs some people can be. They discriminate against someone because they were born into a wealthy family. My Brother and I were born into a wealthy family. There were occasions we felt the same type of snobbery directed toward us simply because our father and grandfather worked hard and made some money. It's not like we had a choice of which family we were born into.
Snobs that exhibit contempt toward people who may have more money than others fall right into the liberal think mode of pitting us against each other, whether it's black against white, poor against rich . . . whatever.
What SHOULD be important is that he SERVED. He didn't desert, he wasn't off burning American flags in Russia - HE SERVED!
To those people: Geez, what in the hell do you people want? Must you be jealous of everyone? It's obvious you don't give a rat's a** about this country, or you'd be pulling together to make sure Gore does not win. But instead, petty jealousy comes out by way of calling them 'princelings' and 'rich boys.' GET A GRIP! We aren't in high school. This is the time to pull together or we aren't going to have a country left to exercise your jealousies!
"Obviously. But some people don't consider that license to ignore principles of fair play as they seek answers to questions where impropriety appears to exist."
If your looking for impropriety check the current occupant of the White House. You'll find plenty there.
The current occupant of the White House isn't running for president. Although there's an awful lot of talk about him being Gore's veep. Two columns yesterday that I saw.
Don't look for any apologies from the Bush-bashers, here or anywhere else.
Hey, we'll apologize if we ever put forth dishonest information. But I have never bashed Bush over the issue of what he did 30 years ago. I have bashed him for having Clinton foreign policy. This is based on the fact that he agrees with Clinton on:
Let's deal with the present and future. The present is we have Clinton Lite as the Republican nominee. The future is that we will have more Somalias and Kosovos after Bush is in office. Hypocrites who feign opposition to Clinton yet support Bush are the ones who owe this forum and this country an apology.
Al Gore is running for President and as far as I'm concerned he and Clinton are birds of a feather.
I have fond memories of those times. Although I never actually drove him to Guard duty, he told me that he went and there is no reason for me to believe that he did not go."
Maybe Bush Jr. was actually driving around looking for Confederate memorials to spit on. I noticed the article source was from Austin, Texas. Isn't that the same city where Bush Jr. removed a bronze plaque honoring Confederate soldiers from a state courthouse? He had it removed in the middle of the night, so I reckon many Texans did not take notice of the Kennebunkport yankee spitting on their heritage.
I rely on my Texas Regiments in all tight places, and I fear that I call upon them too often. They have fought grandly, nobly. --Robert E. Lee
ROFLMAO
I just can't understand what Texas voters have been thinking !!
I got it just fine. You're the one being obtuse -- and still beating a dead horse.
Your mind must be quite small to judge my position has anything to do with petty jealousy. Beware: It's always risky to judge others only BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS.
And additionally, what a positively WEAK character statement you exhibit by lacking the courage to address me directly ... Not really surprising however, for a lame Bush/Gore (military service) apologist.
I guess it's not really fair to blame someone with your obvious lack of experience and understanding, for the inability to grasp why accepting such WEAK LEADERSHIP QUALITIES (AGAIN) for the Office of President of the United States and Commander in Chief, (and lest we forget-Leader of the ENTIRE Free World) ... why such mediocre talant is simply revolting to men who recognize what strong character and PATRIOTIC leadership qualities will be required if we are ever to keep America SOVEREIGN and FREE in the forseeable future.
Those qualities do not simply spring from 'priviledged pedigree ... or an Ivy League/Eastern Establishment tradition, though we know the 'elites' would love us to believe it is so. They in fact feel a certain arrogant 'responsibility' to take care of the 'Great Unwashed', and to serve in positions of power and leadership, having been, shall we say ... 'born to a higher station'.
But gratefully our 'Founders' were not so shallow and ego-centered, nor $elfish and GREEDY when they found themselves in positions of power and control. And leading with much humility and prayerful reflection, our Preamble to the Constitution was established to read, "Of the People, By the People and For the People" ... NOT ... 'Of the Elites , By the Connected, and For the Corporate-Government Empire'(or whoever has the most $$$$') as you would seem to desire.
I know this concept of true 'self-rule' upsets you and your Wall Street-addicted pals in the 'I've Got Mine Club', who would no doubt, like to do away with the unnecessary American middle-class, and revert back to a simpler form of Corporate Feudalism. But that's just 2 Fr*@#'n bad.
Some of the common citizens finally have the dots connected, and are FINISHED... I repeat FINISHED sending OUR BLOOD and OUR $$$ over to your little money-making Corporate/UN excursions ala Somalia/Macedonia/Kosivo etc etc. as little 'silver-spoon' George Jr was so happy to support. (Is that better than Princeling, or 'spoiled rich-boy-son of rich politician'??)
We clearly understand there is a hell of alot more on the line this election year than just the future health of your piddlin' portfolio OR your sacred and greedy and worthless (Rockefeller/CFR-controled)WTO, GOParty/DummoParty.
Tripped your trigger, didn't I!! You just opened mouth and removed all doubt. Thanks. Settled it in my mind.
Hey, what can I say ... some of us citizens just UNAPOLOGETICALLY love and respect what we have been blessed with here in America ... too much to stand idley by and watch it split up like some jackpot ... Free Traded away by those whose very character is so obviously flawed by greed.
'Simple George Jr', Heir Apparent to the Bush dynasty, is just the next 'tool' in line to carry THEIR New World water.
The intent of the GOP has never been clearer with their nervous ignoring of a man with a true intellect and leadership capability, Alan Keyes ... but alas (sigh) ... a slaves pedigree ... sad to say morally uncompromising, and most importantly, NOT A SOVEREIGNTY-SACRIFICING, BOOT-LICKING, $$$ NWO-FREE TRADER $$$.
So you can see, George-the-Princelings lightweight 'non-War Record(less)' history is not my biggest problem with the boy. After all, the odds and simple logic dictate he was incapable of creating all those 'lucky breaks' on his own back in 1967 ... unless of course you are common-senseLESS.
What's really funny is that you continually try to insult me by adding the 'less' on the "Reply To" when you don't really know whether I was addressing you or not . . . there are certainly more than one posters on this thread calling Bush and Gore rich boys. My post was to Ms Marple, plain and simple.
If you identified with my post to Ms Marple that would be your problem, now wouldn't it!
So . . . WHATEVER. Go look in a mirror and continue your ranting. You're, as of this post, certainly not being read by me.
<Earlier drivel snipped>
Would you, as a veteran, support George if incontrovertible proof became available that he was AWOL?
Actually, I am not a veteran, I am active duty. Because I am active duty, *I* understand, even if *you* don't, that you are not AWOL unless the military service says you are.
They didn't, so he wasn't.
That being said, Yes, Unquestionably, 100%, You Betchya, Uh-huh, Roger, 10-77, Yankee Echo Sierra I am supporting George Bush.
If I may....
I'm from Alabama, wore the same damn hat CIBVet did, and had many, many friends and relatives in the Alabama National Guard, including a son right now. Other than those of us that were children of Professional Soldiers, most of the country was trying to get into the Guard or Reserve at that time.
The issue of W doing his drills in Alabama is a moot point, he could have never met anyone but the personnel clerk of the unit and sat in his office and it would have counted as drill time. I certainly don't remember the names of everyone in every unit I served with in 24 years in the Army. Especially those who served the equivilant of six eight hour days 28 years ago. That's the amount of time served in three months in the Guard.
CIB I'm sure you've served with many professionals who had a little AWOL time during their careers. My first Company Commander in a Ranger unit had come up through the ranks and had been AWOL several times, he used to tell us he had held every position in a Ranger unit except First Sergeant, and had made PFC three times. Oh Yeah, he was the finest officer I ever served under and went on to become a Brigade Commander, I'd follow him anywhere. Remember when people had the opportunity to work to overcome past mistakes. In our Zero Defect world of today that isn't possible any more. Please find another issue to tear down W, this one just doesn't do it and he's still got my Veterans Vote.
THIS IS THE FLIMSIEST ARTICLE I HAVE EVER READ. THERE IS NOT ONE CREDIBLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE ANYWHERE . NOT ONE DOCUMENT, NOT ONE PHOTO OF BUSH ON BASE IN ALABAMA, AND NOT ONE MILITARY MAN WOULD BE CRAZY ENOUGH TO TESTIFY UNDER OATH THAT THIS BUSH WAS AT THE ALABAMA BASE WHEN BUSH SAID HE WAS, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THEY WOULD END UP GOING TO PRISON FOR PERJURY !!! NO, . . . THIS ARTICLE PROVES NOTHING. ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS ARTICLE AS AN OPEN AND SHUT CASE AS TO BUSHS INNOCENCE WOULD FLUNK OUT OF LAW SCHOOL. AMERICA IS NOT LOOKING FOR FRIENDS WHO WILL VOUCH FOR THE SHRUB, . . . WE ARE LOOKING FOR HARD CORE PROOF THAT THE SHRUB , . . . BUSH , . . . WAS INDEED AT ALABAMA SERVING OUT HIS TIME IN THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD. SO FAR, . . . NO ONE HAS GIVEN A-N-Y PROOF WHAT-SO-EVER THAT BUSH IS TELLING THE TRUTH. DON'T YOU THINK THAT SOMEONE WOULD BE ABLE TO PRODUCE ONE PIECE OF CREDIBLE EVIDENCE IF BUSH WAS IN ALABAMA ? SURELY, . . . THEY MUST HAVE SIGNED ORDERS BY BUSH OR ONE OF HIS SUPERIORS ON FILE OR ON MICRO FISCHE ? NO , . . . YOU SAY ???? WELL WHAT ABOUT ANY OF THE OUTFITS MEN WHO WERE STATIONED AT THE TIME IN ALABAMA TO TESTIFY UNDER OATH THAT BUSH WAS SEVING HIS TIME WHILE THEY WERE TOO? NO , ... YOU SAY ???? WELL THIS IS WHAT AMERICA HAS TO SAY. CAN YOU SAY BUSH WAS AWOL IN ALABAMA ????? SURE WE CAN !!!!!! YOU DIE HARD REPUBLICANS AND BUSH LOVERS ARE A BUNCH OF NUTTY FRUITCAKES. YOUR BOY BUSH IS A CORRUPT LIAR.
I really don't think too many people here give a dimRATS a$$ what you liberals think about Bush...Even with all caps!....You lack the fortitude to even argue your point...will you people ever grow up?...
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