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MODESTO -- An 11-year-old Modesto boy was fatally shot early Wednesday when a police SWAT team on a federal narcotics sweep raided his parents' home. Police said the shooting was an accident.Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School in Modesto, was pronounced dead in his home. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police Chief Roy Wasden said.
"Our entire department is in shock," Wasden said. "And our heartfelt sympathy goes out to the family of the child and the officers who were involved in this tragic incident."
Neither Wasden nor Drug Enforcement Agency Special Agent Robert Dey would reveal details of the shooting or the raid.
Wasden said those details won't be available until investigations have been completed.
The shot came from Officer David Hawn, whose weapon accidentally discharged during the raid, Wasden said.
Hawn, a 21-year department veteran, has served on the SWAT team for 18 years. Following department policy, Hawn was placed on paid administrative leave.
Hawn and six others entered the house at 2524 McAdoo Ave. to secure it so federal drug agents could serve drug warrants.
The boy's father, Moises Sepulveda, was arrested and booked on charges of methamphetamine trafficking. The boy's mother and two other children, ages 8 and 14, were home during the raid.
A sergeant and six officers knocked on the door at 6:16 a.m. Five minutes later, a call went out for an ambulance and fire department personnel.
As is routine with officer-involved shootings, separate investigations are being conducted by the Stanislaus County District Attorney's Office, the police department and the Modesto City Attorney's Office.
"Our preliminary investigation indicates that the shooting was accidental," Wasden said.
After the shooting, neighbors stood in front of their homes, wondering what happened. Police officers with folded arms talked in small groups.
"It's a war zone all around this village," said Charley Ney, 44, who lives near McAdoo Avenue. "It gets crazy sometimes."
By Wednesday night, neighbors were exchanging feelings of shock, concern and grief.
"I didn't ever think anything like this could happen at that house, to that family," said former next-door neighbor Nadia Chuca, 23. "It's just sad that this happened to an 11-year-old. I saw him grow up."
Federal and local narcotics agents, including the FBI, began a drug trafficking investigation in January 1999, said Dey, assistant special agent in charge of the San Francisco Field Division of the federal Drug Enforcement Administration.
The drug ring -- most of whose members reside in Stanislaus County -- manufactured, sold and distributed large quantities of methamphetamine, Dey said.
During the investigation, agents discovered three methamphetamine labs, including one capable of producing about 50 pounds of the drug at a time.
The agencies recently completed the investigation and obtained arrest warrants for 14 residences around the county.
Because of the violent nature of the methamphetamine trade, SWAT teams are routinely used to secure residences before federal agents go in.
"Unfortunately, we're seeing more and more defendants with guns," Dey said. "We try to take all the precautions to avoid anyone getting hurt. This is a tragic situation for all parties involved."
Wednesday's raids led to 12 arrests on federal drug charges and two additional drug arrests on probable cause, Dey said.
I agree. I also note that there was no mention in the above story as to whether or not drugs were found in the home.
Now that "Hate Crime" legislation has passed in the House, How long before they come for us?
Scumbags strike again! Where is their "for the children" cry, now? Dismantle this crap, or the American people will speak
Bastar*s!!!!
Shooting was incidental to the SWAT team being there, not accidental. So guess that Elian couldn't have been shot by a SWAT team. At least on that is not award winning.
Again--disband every so-called SWAT team in the US, issue the former members a .38 Special with two speedloaders, a pair of shoes with soles about an inch thick and give them a beat about ten miles long to cover twice a shift--
Oh, come on, we all occasionally shoot someone in the back with a shotgun accidentally.
Heck, I must have done it hundreds of times. Police and prosecutors are very understanding when this sort of thing happens.
/sarcasm
Oh Jim! This is such a sad story, and you coulndn't be more right.
I hope I don't get banned for this remark, but the only reason I can think of for the violent actions used against alleged "drug dealers" is that some people in government are simply trying to protect their business interests.
This is not the first innocent person to be murdered by the government's war on drugs, and sadly he won't be the last.
Coming to a neighborhood near you, Soon. God help us all!
DrMike
Someone said the other day " The Constitution may not be perfect, but it beats whatever the government is using."
Yes, Jim, it has to stop.
Grrrrrrrrr! In the back?
He probably forgot to hand in his DARE homework.
Is it true that they shot him after he brandished a copy of the Constitution and demanded to know their legal basis for their invasion of his home?
Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School in Modesto, was pronounced dead in his home. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police Chief Roy Wasden said.
These are the only people that the gun banners want to have guns!
Gotta jump in here and make a point. I think of myself as a very informed conservative. An 'arch-conservative'. And somebody had to point out to ME only about a year ago that the very existence of SWAT teams is unconstitutional. Military hit squads running the streets in military special forces gear with advanced wheapons not even available to the public. Even I had not shed enough of the brainwashing to see this untill lately and I'm 50 years old and conservative now for 25 years. We are in deeper $hit than even we know!
..our heartfelt sympathy goes out to the family of the child and the officers who were involved in this tragic incident.
That's right, just a tragic incident some people were involved in.
Of course, some of the people lived through it.
Whew! Thank God soon only cops will have guns!
Remember the old adage, "War is the health of the State." The State is growing bigger, stronger and more irresponsible with every day of this stupid war on drugs. It's unfortunate that neither major party will address this ongoing travesty.
The KGB mentality of our law enforcers will make it safer for them to get the rest of the population dis-armed. Then they can exterminate at will with less risk. To bad this case is ended.
I hope I don't get banned for this remark, but the only reason I can think of for the violent actions used against alleged "drug dealers" is that some people in government are simply trying to protect their business interests.
Bumper sticker I saw this morning:
Don't Steal: The government hates competition.
Didn't think it was funny then and don't think it is funny now.
"And our heartfelt sympathy goes out to the family of the child and the officers who were involved in this tragic incident."
"...and the OFFICERS who were involved..." ?
Yeah, 'Paid Adminstrative Leave' is hell...
...are we a nation of jack-booted thugs...
Military hit squads running the streets in military special forces gear with advanced wheapons not even available to the public.
Man, your phrasing just jumped out at me. How close we are indeed to the third-world dictatorships the liberals cry about all the time, with their secret tribuals and death squads roaming at will, taking out whomever they deem a threat. Here we've given it the face of the federal government and their war on drugs. This bloody business has gotten out of hand.
Two like in Colorado in the past 12 months. This is happening all over the country. The gestapo is like 007 - license to kill. They will not be held accountable. Thanks for the post.
Hawn and six others entered the house at 2524 McAdoo Ave. to secure it so federal drug agents could serve drug warrants.
Article IV
[Persons and houses to be secure from unreasonable search and seizures.]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons are things to be seized.
...and of course the Cheerleaders andd Warriors will treat this thread like the plague. They are cowardly enablers.
Visited a VA clinic yesterday. Saw more Federal Police in the building than cops on the street. I'll forever remember that BATFraid at Waco. Too damn much militarization of the police.
We need to get public officials in office who will stop this phony drug war.
Secondly, can you believe the uttter audacity for the Chief to offer sympathy for the COP? How absurd. This really does have to stop. Too many Americans are sitting idly by while their neghbors are assulted and killed in the name of "safety."
Yep, real heroic, these scumbags. Taking out 11 year olds, who as we all know are such a threat to life and limb of the JBTs.
Now, I wonder, when will these heroes have their award ceremony, ala scumwad Meissner and her INS goons? Will these heroic agents have the courage to have their names published in the open press for all to honor?
The government rights are no longer within the limits of the U.S. Constitution. When something goes bad with one of these raids it is either an accident or a mistake. The judge who approved this should be indited.
Another sacrificial lamb offered up on the altar of the appearance of being tough on drugs.We gotta put a stop to this insanity,nobody can do it but us.
I hang my head in sorrow and shame.
"somebody had to point out to ME only about a year ago that the very existence of SWAT teams is unconstitutional. Military hit squads running the streets in military special forces gear with advanced wheapons not even available to the public."
Two questions if I may be so bold.
1 What was it that sombody told you?
2 What are you planning to do about it?
Semper Fi
And somebody had to point out to ME only about a year ago that the very existence of SWAT teams is unconstitutional. Military hit squads running the streets in military special forces gear with advanced wheapons not even available to the public.
Even I had not shed enough of the brainwashing to see this untill lately and I'm 50 years old and conservative now for 25 years. We are in deeper $hit than even we know!
Thank you for pointing out the reasons for the unconstitutionality of these SWAT teams. I'm just learning about all this carnage after I got my computer and Internet access last year. The media have been doing a good job brainwashing us that it's OK to deviate from constitutional rule to "save the children" from drugs. I felt for it for a long time.
How can a shotgun blast to the back of an 11 year-old boy be an accident?? Did the darn thing go off all by itself? Do we now need to require trigger locks on all police shotguns?
"I also note that there was no mention in the above story as to whether or not drugs were found in the home."
After something as senselessly violent and monstrously evil as shooting an 11-year old boy in the back with a shotgun you can bet that the odds are ZERO that drugs weren't miraculously 'found' in that particular home. The only question would be whether they had something handy in the SWAT van, or had to get what was needed sent on the double from the station’s evidence room.
Would either major candidate do a damn think about this sort of "accident?"
Unfortunately, I fear the answer is NO.
" Unconstitutional Federal drug gestapo swat team kills innocent boy with shotgun blast to the back."
That couldn't happen in America...could it?
Another one to remember.
Remember Vickie Weaver
Remember Waco
Remember Alberto Sepulveda
the article says that the medic call went out five minutes after the storm troopers hit the door...that does away with any "in the rush of the raid" excuses...the house and occupants would have been secured within the first thirty seconds...why in the hell would the cop have a weapon aimed at the child five minutes after entry??...
" The shot came from Officer David Hawn, whose weapon accidentally discharged during the raid, Wasden said.
Hawn, a 21-year department veteran, has served on the SWAT team for 18 years. Following department policy, Hawn was placed on paid administrative leave."
I find it very hard to believe that a 21 year veteran in the Police department who has been on the SWAT team and training
for 18 years, and supposedly they train constantly, could be that careless with a firearm!
We're becoming more of a police state daily.
A 21 year veteran of the Swat Team has his Shotgun go off "accidentally"??? Who were the other Swat Team members...Curley, Moe and Larry???
Thankfully I was not trying to amuse anyone. It has been admitted that the CIA was involved in drug smuggling, so that should not come as a suprise to you.
However, I believe that the extent has not been fully revealed. A lot of democrats liked to link President Bush and President Reagan to drug smuggling, and many conservatives link Presidnet Clinton to smuggling through Mena Arkansas and Tyson Chickens. I really don't know the truth, but I can't fathom the need for blasting alleged drug dealers like the mafia blasted rum runners during prohibition. It makes no sense at all for the government to behave like mobsters unless they are mobsters. I don't think the rank and file cops are involved directly, if anything they are being used.
However, living in Los Angeles and reading extensively how several Rampart cops stole cocaine from the impound and sold it on the streets, attempted murder on a witness, lied in court, etc... it is not out of the realm of possibility that some cops take advantage of our draconian laws.
As for stealing: There happens to be Billions of dollars missing from the Native American trust fund, and billions more from federal Education funds. I have no idea where that money went either. And since we have no free press willing to investigate it, I have no choice but to leave it up to my imagination.
It's stories like this that make me think the revolution is close at hand. How much longer are the citizens of this country going to put up with stuff like this?
JimRob....how do you "accidentally" shoot an 11-year old kid in the back?
Following department policy, Hawn was placed on paid administrative leave.
In other words, the murderer gets a paid vacation.
Any defense?
Jim, only one thing is gonna stop the new Nazi's. No need to even mention what it is...
Current estimates are that there are 80,000 armed employees in the Executive Branch -- an increase of 20,000 over 1996! Under the constitution, there was never meant to be a federal police force. Even an FBI limited only to investigations was not accepted until this century. Yet today, fueled by the federal government's misdirected war on drugs, radical environmentalism, and the aggressive behavior of the nanny state, we have witnessed the massive buildup of a virtual army of armed regulators prowling the States where they have no legal authority. The sacrifice of individual responsibility and the concept of local government by the majority of American citizens has permitted the army of bureaucrats to thrive
Even in that case, they'd tout it in the article to point out the "evil" of having "drugs" in the home. The fact that they didn't mention any screams that there were none to be found.
I wouldn't want to place any bets either way.
The drug culture in this country has been pushed so far underground that it is hard to feel sorry for some dope pusher and makes it very easy to demonize them. Then something like this happens and it makes you think about what it would be like if they ended prohibition and people like these were all of a sudden making a "legit" living.
Our government has gone way to far...
Guns don't kill people. Government kills people.
" The shot came from Officer David Hawn, whose weapon accidentally discharged during the raid, Wasden said. "
Several things are evident.
1) the weapon was pointed at Alberto Sepulveda.
2) the safety was not engaged.
3) the officer(?) was not trained sufficiently in firearms.
4) and if 1, 2 & 3 are true......it was no accident!
Our preliminary investigation indicates that the shooting was accidental," Wasden said.
Gee, I hope so. Can they say anything more stupid? More grins from the -100 IQ types who populate the SWAT squad. Too bad they didn't have a fire truck to hide behind.
When is some law-abiding, wrongly-accused, accidentally-attacked citizen going to waste a few of these Nazi thugs???
It has got to happen some time.
It is the ONLY way this crap will cease - enter the wrong house on a dynamic entry? - you die.
Simple, clean and just.
prambo
"Unfortunately, we're seeing more and more defendants with guns," Dey said. "We try to take all the precautions to avoid anyone getting hurt. This is a tragic situation for all parties involved."
What utter, categorical crap. Did the defendant in this case have a gun, Mr. Dey? No? Then is it relevant? Were the "precautions" taken in this case adequate? No? Did they "avoid" anyone getting hurt? No? Is it as tragic a situation for the living officers as for the dead child? No? Mr. Dey, you're as full of it as a Christmas goose.
An 11 year-old boy is dead. And for what? Does anybody truly believe that this raid will have ANY effect on supply whatsoever? Has any raid EVER accomplished ANYTHING with regards to reducing overall supply? Folks, 10 or 15 years ago we put two entire CARTELS out of business (the Medellin and Cali organizations). Did THAT even make a dent?
Exactly!
Gun safety is NO Accident!
prambo
Before I get mad, I going to wait to see if any information comes out on this. I KNOW that cop is feeling like Sh*t right now. I wasn't there for this particular bust. I do remember some raids back in the late 70's and tragadies do happen. Most of the time the cop was considered guilty until proven innocent. This guy is going through living Hell right now. If this father was involved in the manufacturing and distribution of meth, he evidently didn't care much for his family. If on the other hand this was a wrong address, then throw the book at them. When I was a Deputy I prayed for one thing, to end the shift in one piece and get home to the wife and kids. Even back then, in southeast New Mexico, we were pretty heavily armed (personally owned approved weapons). The big difference was we were a lot less confrontational. Kick ass when we had to, but use reason and respect to the citizens we served, but back then we were referred to as Peace Officers. There is more to this story that we know. I'm waiting to find out what else happened.
Maybe the defenders will shed some light?
...an 11 year old shot in the back with a shotgun. GUILTY!!!
We need to stop the drug war now.
Jail never cured a drug addict (its a medical problem).
I dare you to show me an urban area where police action alone has had an impact on drug abuse.
94 years and 85 TRILLION dollars spent, the bill of rights trashed, how many deaths like this, and the same percentage of the US population is addicted to hard drugs as was addicted in 1906 when the drug war began.
hardly an accident,with a 18 year veteran of the department and member of a swat team,they use that shotgun for hundreds of rounds for practice,accident,ha,no way. let`s get those investigations going!
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL PARA-MILITARY POLICE...OR ELSE!!!
Let's see what the facts here look like:
1) Suspect/Victim: 10 year old kid.
2) Location of wound: Shot in the back.
3) Weapon used: Shotgun; presummably pump-style *riot-control* 12ga.
4) SWAT Team Member Disposition: Presented with plaque commemorating occaison, & awarded extra vacation time?
5) Nutts: ~Just nutts.
{now that's some SWAT team member. Quite a man.}
By Wednesday night, neighbors were exchanging feelings of shock, concern and grief.
"I didn't ever think anything like this could happen at that house, to that family," said former next-door neighbor Nadia Chuca, 23. "It's just sad that this happened to an 11-year-old. I saw him grow up."
No, Nadia, you didn't see him grow up. "Sad" doesn't even begin to describe this...
Correct you are that this has to end. We had an incident where a friend of a 67 year old woman called the Sheriff's Dept. because she was supposed to meet him in town for dinner and did not show. A deputy was sent to her rural home to check, she ordered him off her property holding a .22 rifle. Sheriff sends in SWAT team. One of them sneaks up to back of her house, when she comes out on her back porch with rifle to see what the dogs are barking at, he shoots her dead.
"The shot came from Officer David Hawn, whose weapon accidentally discharged during the raid, Wasden said. "
Guns do not go off by themselves.
SWAT teams are routinely used to secure residences before federal agents go in.
That's reassuring. I wonder if this was also another "no knock warrant"?
"Unfortunately, we're seeing more and more defendants with guns," Dey said. "We try to take all the precautions to avoid anyone getting hurt
Defendants? I thought you were a defendant after you are charged with a crime?
And once agian, it's because the masses have guns.
The shot came from Officer David Hawn, whose weapon accidentally discharged during the raid
The officer isn't to blame, the gun just 'went off'.
C'mon out to the March for Liberty this October 7, 2000 in Washington DC. I will ensure a few more amps/speakers are turned up about this.
I find it very hard to believe that a 21 year veteran in the Police department who has been on the SWAT team and training for 18 years, and supposedly they train constantly, could be that careless with a firearm! We're becoming more of a police state daily.
A lot of cops are frighteningly dangerous when it comes to handling firearms. It may well have been an accident. But then again, it's more than a little fishy that the White JBT "accidentally" shot the Hispanic kid in the back.
The Mainslime Media = First line defense of the Corporate Oligarchy.
NOTHING good will happen until that line of defense is TAKEN out.
Last year we were in Italy where all handguns are banned. We saw armored "police" everywhere with assualt weapons.
In Rome we saw armored assualt vehicles with three-four men crews all in body armor with assualt weapons.
So if handguns and assualt weapons are outlawed, why do the police dress and act like commandos?
How could a 21-year department veteran, who has served on the SWAT team for 18 years accidentally discharged his weapon killing an 11-year-old innocent child?
How could shooting a boy in the back be and accident?
Jim...
and I thought the tale of Janet Poppins was chilling.
Whew! Thank God soon only cops will have guns!
WRONG! Only cops AND CROOKS!!!
Im seething..........
Seems to me that if Daddy Sepulveda wasn't running his meth business out of the house where his wife and children lived, perhaps his son would still be alive.
May the kid RIP, may his old man rot in hell, and perhaps we should say thanks to the SWAT team that closed down the operation and in all probability saved some law abiding citizens kids from having meth offerred/sold to them. I'd also suggest a prayer for the SWAT cop who accidently shot the kid would be appropriate.
The boy's father, Moises Sepulveda, was arrested and booked on charges of methamphetamine trafficking.
This indeed is a heart breaking tragedy but don't you think just a little bit of the responsibility lies with the father.
Don't these people realize that when they deal in such activities they are not only putting themselves in danger but their loved one.
To blame the 'jack booted thugs' for this is so typical and I am sure you will have many jump on the band wagon
What about the Dad who puts his family in a dangerous situaton? That child could have just as easily been killed by a customer or employee of his father.
Either way the child is dead and that is indeed sad that a 11 year old who's short life has ended because of drugs.
You probably won't agree with me, but a drugs killed that child just as much as a bullet did.
From Cybershooters [UK] email group:
A cow was shot dead by a police marksman at the end of a two-hour hunt after the animal escaped from a cattle market and ran along the High Street in Shaftesbury, Dorset. Armed police units were deployed by helicopter and the Friesian was shot three times after being cornered in a field.
Great. 50 years ago, some farmer would have simply roped it, and returned it to the pen. Now we have cops who are deathly afraid of a quadruped, and shoot everything they are afraid of (can't get those clothes dirty, now, can we?). I wonder how they justified that helo ride?
A sergeant and six officers knocked on the door at 6:16 a.m.
"We try to take all the precautions to avoid anyone getting hurt. This is a tragic situation for all parties involved."
If they really wanted to take precautions to "avoid" anyone getting hurt, they would have waited until the children were in school before storming the home. I assume the Dad would have not been away at work during the course of the day.
May Alberto rest in peace...
If the 11 yr old had survived he would probably have been prosecuted for visiting a residence where drugs were used.
SWAT must be shut down in every city. These cowboys are no longer "peace officers."
They view themselves as warriors....dress like warriors...and kill like warriors. The black Ninja suits and their HK MP5 "Elian model" must be replaced with revolvers, blue suits and dress shoes.
If they wish to be warriors.....join the Army, Navy, Marines, or Air Force.
Run along kids and do your DARE homework. If you learn anything from this, learn why we need restrictions on dangerous weapons. Just think how bad this would be if the gun had not been in the hand of a trained professional.
If this father was involved in the manufacturing and distribution of meth, he evidently didn't care much for his family.
The article says nothing about the lab being in the house or what this guy's job was in the ring. Lots of dopers keep the stuff away from their homes to keep things like this from happening.
If the cpos have no reason to suspect there is dope in the house thet have no reason to do a dynamic entry even to make an arrest. At least that's the way it used to be.
No knock and dynamic entry were made law because dopers were flushing the evidence. Now the cops do dynamic entry to grab kids (Elian). No chance they were going to flush Elian down a toilet.
Things are way out of hand and getting worse. But I digress. The article doesn't say this guy had dope at the house, so it's a big leap to say he didn't care about his family.
We're all disgusted, shocked, 99.
The whole thing stinks; and what's worse?
Somehow this matter's gonna get spun as just so much propaganda, to be used by the Anti-2nd Amend crowd.
Just watch 'n see... ~sigh~
So if handguns and assualt weapons are outlawed, why do the police dress and act like commandos?
Can you say "Cowardice!"? I thought you could.
Thankfully I was not trying to amuse anyone. It has been admitted that the CIA was involved in drug smuggling, so that should not come as a suprise to you.
MS, my comment concerned the bumper sticker, not your post. My point is that you are right and the bumper sticker is too close to the truth to be amusing. I am sorry if I caused you any discomfort by not being clear.
Frankly, while I was typing, I was thinking about a dead little boy who need not have died. Guess that got in the way of proofing to make sure my message was plain. I will try to do better the next time I have an opportunity to respond to you. Take care. OP.
Confirms my notion that the "authorities" should not be allowed to have guns unless supervised by citizens.
I suggest a speedy trial for criminal negligence for the cop whose weapon "went off accidentally" followed by a lengthy prison sentence. Preferably as a cell mate to a lifer with AIDS.
Regards,
L
Either way the child is dead and that is indeed sad that a 11 year old who's short life has ended because of drugs.
You probably won't agree with me, but a drugs killed that child just as much as a bullet did.
Either way the child is dead and that is indeed sad that a 11 year old who's short life has ended because of (police state terror).
You probably won't agree with me, but (police state terror) killed that child just as much as a bullet did.
That's the real problem, police state terror--the same thing that got Vicky Weaver killed and the Branch Davidians incinerated. Drugs are just the bogey for more of this fascist crap, and too many Freepers gleefully take this bait--while those headshaved, sadistic, steroid-drenched, potato-brained swaggering SWAT goons and their enablers smile, looking for the next person to terrorize, knowing that any excuse, no matter how lame, is okay.
Right you are! The War on Drugs is a War on the Constitution!
No drug blew a hole in this kids back.
Either way the child is dead and that is indeed sad that a 11 year old who's short life has ended because of drugs.
Wrong. This boy was killed by men who had no legal reason to be in the house. Period.
Are you on drugs? (Echinacea doesn't count.) That's the nutsest thing I've ever seen you write. In fact, it's the ONLY nuts thing I've seen you write.
Dan
You probably won't agree with me, but a drugs killed that child just as much as a bullet did.
Drugs did not kill this boy. The "War on Drugs" did. Those of us who are calling for reform of the drug laws recognize that drugs are harmful, we also recognize that the War on Drugs is more harmful than the drugs themselves.
"I didn't ever think anything like this could happen at that house, to that family," said former next-door neighbor Nadia Chuca, 23.
Nadia----that could have been your house... NEXT?
The War on Drugs is a War on the Constitution!
You're right on this dead. Just wait it will get worse too.
and perhaps we should say thanks to the SWAT team that closed down the operation
You go right ahead. And when I post the same drivel after your child has died at the hands of cops serving an illegal warrant, what would your reaction be?
Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School in Modesto, was pronounced dead in his home. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police Chief Roy Wasden said.
Jim, if this were my child there would be nothing in this world that could stop me from killing the bastards responsible for this!
sui
Would I be wrong is suspecting that more people have died FROM 'dynamic entry' than have died PERFORMING 'dynamic entry?' I reckon that statistic is rather lopsided...
What would happen to one of us if we happened to accidentally shoot an officer in the back? Paid vacation to the pokey...if we survived the arrest.
If they wish to be warriors.....join the Army, Navy, Marines, or Air Force.
The services are too good for Gestapo jerks like that. Those cowardly clowns would then have to face an enemy as well armed as they, something they generally have not and would not want to face.
These SWAT types (in fact the Gestapo developed the SWAT concept in the 1930s) are more like prime candidates for jobs as hitmen in a mob family--if in fact they aren't already, so to speak.
To blame the 'jack booted thugs' for this is so typical and I am sure you will have many jump on the band wagon What about the Dad who puts his family in a dangerous situaton? That child could have just as easily been killed by a customer or employee of his father.
Whoa----there.... I don't recall any drugs being found. And.....how often do we read that the SWAT team was at the wrong address!
"That's the real problem, police state terror--the same thing that got Vicky Weaver killed and the Branch Davidians incinerated. Drugs are just the bogey for more of this fascist crap, and too many Freepers gleefully take this bait--while those headshaved, sadistic, steroid-drenched, potato-brained swaggering SWAT goons and their enablers smile, looking for the next person to terrorize, knowing that any excuse, no matter how lame, is okay.
Now that one of us has identified the problem, what are we going to do about it?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, or to make light of another tragedy, but only seeking a solution to a problem.
Stay well, and may God be with You.
Semper Fi
SWAT must be shut down in every city. These cowboys are no longer "peace officers." ... If they wish to be warriors.....join the Army, Navy, Marines, or Air Force.
Eighty-nine percent (89%) of police departments have paramilitary units, and 46% have been trained by active duty armed forces. The most common use of paramilitary units is serving drug-related search warrants (usually no-knock entries into private homes). Twenty percent (20%) of police departments use paramilitary units to patrol urban areas.
Source: Kraska, P. & Kappeler, V., "Militarizing American Police: The Rise and Normalization of Paramilitary Units," Social Problems, Vol. 44, No. 1 (February 1997).
I have a neighbor who has a machine shop in his basement where he likes make his own guns. Some may be illegal. Is he putting us all at risk? Should we inform the authorities?
A prayer for the SWAT cop?
I pray that this government flunky is reduced to picking up dead animals on the highway while serving a jail sentence.
Hey, Jim, you think it matters to them? It's just another dead Mexican kid. Big deal.
From the Modesto Bee
Officer kills boy, police call shooting an accident
By TY PHILLIPS
BEE STAFF WRITER
(Published: Thursday, September 14, 2000)
An 11-year-old Modesto boy was fatally shot early Wednesday morning when police SWAT team officers on a federal narcotics sweep raided his parents' home. Police said the shooting was an accident.
Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School, was pronounced dead in his home at 2524 McAdoo Ave., just east of Highway 99 in the north Modesto neighborhood commonly known as Highway Village. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police Chief Roy Wasden said.
Wasden would not give any other details of the shooting or raid, not even where in the small house the shooting took place. He said details will not be available until investigations have been completed.
"Our entire department is in shock," Wasden said. "And our heartfelt sympathy goes out to the family of the child, and the officers who were involved in this tragic incident."
The shot came from officer David Hawn, whose weapon accidentally discharged during the raid, Wasden said. Hawn, a 21-year department veteran, has served on the SWAT team for 18 1/2 years. Following department policy, Hawn was placed on paid leave.
Hawn and six other officers had been ordered to enter the McAdoo Avenue house and secure it so federal agents could serve drug warrants.
The boy's father, Moises Sepulveda, was arrested and booked on charges of methamphetamine trafficking. The boy's mother and two siblings, ages 8 and 14, also were home during the raid.
Officers knocked on the door at 6:16 a.m. Five minutes later, a call went out for an ambulance and Fire Department personnel.
Police swarmed in and out of the house all day, and Stanislaus County coroner's deputies did not remove the boy's body until after 2 p.m.
As is routine with officer- involved shootings, separate investigations are being conducted by the district attorney's office, the Police Department's Crimes Against Persons Unit and Professional Standards Unit, and the city attorney's office.
"Our preliminary investigation indicates that the shooting was accidental," Wasden said at his first major press conference since becoming chief Aug. 7.
The department could not immediately provide a list of police shootings, but no one could remember a case in which an officer had killed a child.
As some officers worked inside the house, others stood grim-faced outside, talking in small groups. Neighbors stood in front of their homes, wondering what had happened on their street.
At 2524 McAdoo, a potted plant had been tipped off the porch and onto the lawn. A police shield rested on the porch.
Neighbors leaned around yellow police tape, trying to sneak a look inside the home.
"It's a war zone all around this village," said Charley Ney, 44, who lives near McAdoo. "It gets crazy sometimes."
Ney leaned on a fence several doors from the crime scene, talking with neighbors Bill Blair, 41, and Lloyd Little, 55. The men knew someone had been shot in a drug raid, but they had no idea it was a boy.
Blair said drugs are nothing new to Highway Village. He has lived in the area all his life. The men have been told late-night traffic at 2524 McAdoo is common, but it was not something they watched closely.
"When you live out here, there's always something going on," Blair said. "When you drive around, you don't look too much at people like that. You don't watch them because they're watching you."
Wednesday night, neighbors stood at the edge of driveways and lawns, swapping stories of concern, shock and grief.
"I didn't ever think anything like this could happen at that house, to that family," former next-door neighbor Nadia Chuca, 23, said. "He was just at the wrong place at the wrong time; it's just sad that this happened to an 11-year-old. ... I saw him grow up."
The Sepulveda family has lived at the McAdoo Avenue home for about five years. Fourteen-year-old Melissa Gold lived across the street until recently.
She said Alberto taught bicycle tricks to her 9-year-old brother, Brian.
"My little brother, he's been sad all day. He tried to ask me why the cop shot him. I didn't know how to say it in sign language," she said. "My brother's deaf."
Sam Climber walked his 9-year-old son, Sam Jr., in front of the Sepulveda house to try to make sense of Wednesday's shooting.
His son, he said, played daily with Alberto.
"We would play hide-and-go-seek, ride our bikes and have water balloon fights," the young Climber said. "I sort of could not believe it; I didn't think kids could get shot."
Counseling services will be provided today for students at Chrysler and Prescott schools, said Judy French, a secretary in the Stanislaus Union School District. Alberto attended Chrysler last year.
Wednesday's raid was part of a drug trafficking investigation that began in January 1999, said Robert Dey, a special agent with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency.
He said authorities had identified a Stanislaus County drug ring that was making and selling large quantities of methamphetamine. Wednesday's action involved 14 simultaneous raids at houses around the county.
Officers arrested 14 people, Dey said, and were seeking four others.
SWAT teams called upon for Wednesday's operation were from the Sacramento and San Francisco offices of the FBI, the DEA, the Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department and the Lodi Police Department.
"With the violent nature of methamphetamine traffickers, we try to take all the precautions to avoid anyone getting hurt. This is a tragic situation for all parties involved," Dey said.
Finally some rational statements from TEXASPROUD, Little John and TexasMom on this thread. Has FreeRepublic become such a brown-nose forum that everyone and their dog feels compelled to lick the boots of the founder/owner?
I agree that we need to re-examine the War on Drugs and stop no-knock home invasions. But lets not forget what brought these cops to the house in the first place. The father was a scumbag drug dealer who is responsible for who knows how many childrens' deaths and injury. If you are dealing meth you are by definition a bad man and you will be taken out eventually. Most likely you will be taken out by competitors, but the authorities also occasionally do their modest best to rid the community of your evil ilk.
Why wasn't the neighbor they quoted concerned that she was living next to a drug dealer? Apparently that didn't shock her at all. What a dope.
They think they are warriors, but they are just playing. When the rubber meets the road (Columbine for instance), they hide.
prambo
Current drug of choice is Diet Coke. Nowhere in the constitution is the federal government empowered to restrict the ingestion of any substance by its citizenry. Article 10 of the constitution states:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The federal government, in conducting the War on Drugs, is acting in direct violation of the constitution. Therefore, the War on Drugs is a War on the Constitution. And innocent people are being killed in the crossfire.
Maybe it's time to start placing notices on our property that all no knock warrants will be met with deadly force.
Dan:
More DEA terrorism. Deadly reality recalling your post: "Twas a night in mid August"
Regards & hope to see you in DC on Oct 7 - Dukie
As I said in an earlier thread when you were defending the war on drugs due to your emergency room experiences: you don't see the other side there because they go directly to the morgue.
right on my friend. after all the legal crap is over, Im coming after one person, the scum that shot my kid. BAM! Lets see if the 'rush' that he got shooting and killing one of my family is better, and worth, the feeling of knowing his ........nevermind. Im REALLY pissed at these F'ing jarhead a-holes. let the chips fall where they may. Its called honor.
I'm going to take some heat here but oh well. While I do respect your opinions on 'the war on drugs' at least hear out this view.
I've been in that 'culture' in the past and am very glad I am no longer. "Crank" is the most mind numbing(by making one think they are sooooo righton and aware and capable of whatever they want) drug I personaly came across. I wonder how many of you care about all the families that have been torn apart by the frenzy of an addict in his delerium or need? I wonder how many of you have been subjected to the fumes of anhydrous in your eyes,nose and throat and then not care that a manufacturer has put his/her innocent children at risk by transporting it in the family vehical? I wonder how many of you have seen dead bodies of families in a mangled vehical on the road that got in the way of a zoned out crack head? I wonder how many of you would justify theft for the support of the addiction because the addict is no longer physicaly capable of holding down a job? I wonder how many of you have been confronted by a friend who has gone over the edge into his dillusions and parinoia?
I wonder how many of you will join the war on drugs by personaly providing education to youngsters about to get caught up in this world? I wonder how many of you would provide support for those families that are torn apart by death and derangment?
Please don't tell me that this would all go away with legalization. It didn't go away with legalizing alcohol and we all know just how responcible everybody is with its use now. Lets see.....at least one a year of my acquaintances.....
Can you tell that I do support A war on drugs? I do agree with you all on deploring this awfull "accident"; gun control my *ss. I do dispise their tactics. But I dispise the candy *sses that prey on other peoples weaknesses to make a living as much or more. As GeorgefromtheBronx says; Peace and Love
I have a neighbor who has a machine shop in his basement where he likes make his own guns. Some may be illegal. Is he putting us all at risk? Should we inform the authorities?
Your neighbor must not understand the forces that will be used against him----if he continues to exercise all that freedom stuff!
I didnt think it'd be long before someone was calling for my scalp. Heres how I feel.
It is certainly a tragedy that this little boy was killed. I have been told there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge", the discharge was negligent.
Now lets distance ourselves (for lack of a better term)from the tragic death of the child and talk about drugs. How many of you want to live where there is a meth lab in operation? Or any drug house for that matter? I would wager that most of you complaining about the cops would be the ones calling because the place was in your neighborhood. If you are one of the many who want to make drugs legal, get the American people to back you and do so. At the moment drugs are illegal, as is their manufacture. It aint my law, although I agree drugs should be illegal.
As far as SWAT teams go, OK, lets get rid of SWAT. Then what? You going to get rid of cops with guns too? Eventually somebody is going to start shooting the police who walk up to the door and knock to serve a warrant and the shooting is going to start anyhow. It appears to me that the warrant in this case was valid and a large quantity of drugs and drug making equipment was in the house. The fact is, criminals are getting more violent. Whether or not you want SWAT to handle it or some cop, eventually a man with a gun is going to have to show up and take care of the situation. When people handle guns there are going to be negligent discharges, someone is going to get hurt. Tragically this time it was an 11 year old boy. What about his father? Do any of you place any of the responsibility on him?
Now my personal opinion. We in this country are going to continue to lose our rights as long as we permit abortion. Thats right. The fact is, in my opinion, by our apathy, we all bare some of the guilt. Our immoral society has permitted this country to slide in the toilet, we are getting what we deserve. And that is tyranny. And as long as we permit abortion, Jerry Springer and all the rest of the perversion in America, and even participate in the hedonism in this country, continue to see your rights go out the window.
Flame away.
That's exactly right. When does an army become an army? When it's named one? No freekin way! An army, or to be strict here as far as terms go, a military unit, is defined by it's equipment, not by the name we give it. If it were the other way around, we could change the name of the US Army to the US Police Dept. and then unleash the tanks, planes and helicopters on the public. Oh wait. Didn't we already do that in Waco?
"It's a war zone all around this village," said Charley Ney, 44, who lives near McAdoo. "It gets crazy sometimes."
That puts the entire matter to rest... Oh well. Nuff said. Fagettaboutit... Let's move on.
Agreed, after over 20yrs protecting our country first and then the public I am shocked and ashamed of the current state of Law Enforcement. Many of todays Cops fall into the catagory of what we refer to as the 'SPIKEY HAIRS" as evidenced by the Ranger style haircuts, combat boots, and Gargoyle sunglasses. Very little Police work going on. They are either pulling over citizens for failing to wear seatbelts or donning DARTH VADER suits to play soldier, usually with tragic results!
Pardon me, but did the trial and conviction of the parents take place in the seconds between the door smash and the shotgun blast?
These folks were SUSPECTS, no more, at the time of the police homicide. And we all know how many SWAT raids have taken place at the wrong address based on "informants tips" from professional paid snitches, who often dream up crimes to get their reward money.
So you will not complain if your son is killed by a SWAT team if informants wrongly finger your house? After all, the SWAT team would be operating in "good faith".
Move on folks, nothing here, just a little collateral damage in the War on Drugs...
As GeorgefromtheBronx says; Peace and Love
Uh, I think that's GeorgefromBrooklynCenter, or something like that. I know Brooklyn is in it, since I grew up in Brooklyn Center, MN.
Just another "drug-related death" for the warrriors to plug into the statistics which "justify" their moronic War on Drugs.
This indeed is a heart breaking tragedy but don't you think just a little bit of the responsibility lies with the father.
That may be, but an 11 year old child, Alberto Sepulveda, is dead, and I don't think anything his father may or may not have done in any way justifies that.
In terms of the larger constitutional issues raised by the tactics and methods used in the war on drugs fiasco, I'm not sure the price we pay in terms of further erosion of our constitional rights is worth whatever small gains we may make in limiting the supply and distribution of illegal substances. I'm not sure that trading a system based in constitutionally guaranteed liberty for a drug-free society (if that's attainable at all) in the form of a police state is all that good of a deal.
If meth was legal and sold in stores this tragedy would not have occurred,simple as that.There are already laws on the books,constitutional laws,that would cover any crime committed while under the influence of meth or any other drug.No neighborhood math labs would be necessary,no community-wide criminal cliques.How many druggies in jail or dead would it take to equal the value of this innocent young man's life?
Why wasn't the neighbor they quoted concerned that she was living next to a drug dealer? Apparently that didn't shock her at all. What a dope.
Gee whiz, maybe she was just a little upset that a nice little neighborhood boy was just wheeled out on a stretcher, dead from being shot in the back by a cop?
Here is an article about Medellin and Cali and what has happened to their country since U.S. and U.K. drug warriors sent money weapons and special "advisors" (ie. unconventional warfare specialists such as SEALS and SAS) to "help" the Colombians.
It is clear from the article that billions have been spent, tens of thousands of people have been killed, and the drug production and smuggling problem in Colombia has become far worse because of the decentralizing effect of smashing the cartels. Now, drug production is the province of thousands of cash croppers and small, stealthy smugglers.
To stop drug production in Colombia now, a full scale war must be carried out. Didn't U.S. Gov. recently promise Colombia more billions and piles of shiny new weapons so that the war could be escalated?
No knock and dynamic entry were made law because dopers were flushing the evidence. Now the cops do dynamic entry to grab kids (Elian). No chance they were going to flush Elian down a toilet.
It fact, it was Clinton who flushed Elian down the toilet.
fyi
As far as SWAT teams go, OK, lets get rid of SWAT. Then what? Then we utilize PEACE OFFICERS...
You going to get rid of cops with guns too? No---that's absurd.
Eventually somebody is going to start shooting the police who walk up to the door and knock to serve a warrant and the shooting is going to start anyhow. Just like David Koresh---they have to leave the house sometimes...get them then. Why rush the house and "accidently" execute the innocent?
at the time of the police homicide
Uh, excuse me but I think homicide has very specific requirements, like intent and premeditation. Maybe you should do a little more studying before you make such charges.
Go drown yourself.
"What about his father? Do any of you place any of the responsibility on him? "
Evidently not. Read on.
we all know how many SWAT raids have taken place at the wrong address based on "informants tips" from professional paid snitches, who often dream up crimes to get their reward money.
There's a killer syllogism:
Many SWAT raids have taken place at the wrong address.
This was a SWAT raid.
Therefore, this raid took place at the wrong address.
Try a little logic occasionally, you might like it.
You bring up that same ridiculous argument every time.
Maybe we should just think of this young boy as an abortion of the drug war? A needless little life just caught up in yet another arrogant government action with irresponsible losers on both sides.
Meth labs don't scare me. Drugs don't scare me. Nobody in my family is on drugs.
The profit can be taken out of drugs and certainly only irresponsible losers will take drugs and they are a small % of the population. You are holding us responsible for that small % of losers. Thanks!
What are you so scared of? If someone you know is on drugs, help them. I personally do not know one person who is a drug user. I am sorry but I do not understand what you government defenders are so scared of that we need this nazi like law enforcement tactics in every town USA. It is more and more abvious that this is tearing appart our freedoms. That is more important than your paranoia that the everyone will turn into drug crazed chaotic animals if it were legal.
Grow up. Americans can actually take care of themselves. And I can assure you that not everyone is on drugs.
Wait for more info? The longer you wait, the more it will be the kid's fault. The earlier the report, the truer it is these days. Look at Columbine, OKC, and any number of other recent notable crimes. The early news gets it right, and then the spin doctors take over the info flow to control the damage.
No sir. This is all I need to know. Kid shot in back, jack booted SWAT thug did it. Hang the scum. No excuse can be made for enlisting in the gestapo.
Just another "drug-related death" for the warrriors to plug into the statistics which "justify" their moronic War on Drugs
This will be added to those child/gun death statistics that will be utilized by the million moron crowd to push their gun-control agenda.......
"Folks, 10 or 15 years ago we put two entire CARTELS out of business (the Medellin and Cali organizations). Did THAT even make a dent?"
Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!
This last month we gave Colombia $1.3 billion dollars to "help fight the drug war". Bullsh*t! We gave them money to expedite the legal battle waged in Colombia between an indigenous tribe (the U"Wa's) and Occidental Oil (Al Gore Sr was on the Board of Directors and Jr. owns substantial shares) over drilling rights on their ancestral home.
Next year, the U"Was will be homeless and we'll be giving Peru money to fight the relocated cocaine proccesing plants. Al Gore will however be significantly wealthier.
Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School in Modesto, was pronounced dead in his home. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police Chief Roy Wasden said.
"Our entire department is in shock," Wasden said. "And our heartfelt sympathy goes out to the family of the child and the officers who were involved in this tragic incident."
Looks like this time the gun WAS pointed at the boy and the finger WAS on the trigger. < / sarcasm >
When will this %#^% stop? When unconstitutional no-knock raids happen to politicians, local cops and members of federal SWAT teams. The authorities won't no-knock one of their own, but an anonymous tip to local authorities about a federal agent, or to the feds about a local cop, a magistrate who issues these warrantts, or better yet a politician, will explain to them better than any essay or treatise why we have a 4th Amendment.
When it happens to them, maybe they'll get it. Maybe then these senseless killings will stop.
Typical socialist. Holding the children responsible for the actions of their parents. Government doesn't care who gets in the way. It only knows brute force. Right Enabler?
SWAT = Start With a Tyke."
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights is not waived simply because you are a suspected scumbag drug dealer. You have a right to presumed innocence. You have a right to due process. You have a right to trial by your peers. The government does not have the legal authority to raid a private home. The government must act responsibly and legally while serving a warrant. The government does not have the right to use deadly force to search a home. The government does not have the right to wage war on the people. Prohibition was tried once in this nation and rejected by the people when they discovered that it caused more crime and corruption that it prevented. Where is the Constitutional authority for any of these illegal drug laws, gestapo raids, asset seizure and forfeiture, etc.
This innocent boy will remain forever dead. And the cause of his death was obviously police brutality committed by forces of an illegal "gestapo" style raid on a private residence by our out of control government.
This website was established to fight for our Constitutional rights. You do not have to lick my boots, but if you are not interested in defending the Constitution (all of it) then you might just as well leave. You will not be missed.
Right you are. If I had 1% of the manpower & budget they have{& if I cared, which they don't}, I just confiscate the B I G money{but make it look like it was somebody else, to keep them from getting wise as long as possible}. That would be fun, a real nip in the bud, & use the money to lower taxes.
"Finally some rational statements from TEXASPROUD, Little John and TexasMom on this thread. Has FreeRepublic become such a brown-nose forum that everyone and their dog feels compelled to lick the boots of the founder/owner?"
Oh thank you Mr. Rational. I guess we are getting all worked up over nothing. You are right. We must be buttkissers because we read story after story of government arrogance.
BTW while you waste your time and the gubmint wastes my hard earned money "re-examining" the drug war I will be fighting to end it.
One other thing...can I be exempt from this type of government arrogance? Maybe you can pick up my part of the cost for the drug war. I want back pay of course. Enabler.
Guns do not go off by themselves.
Unless they're S&W.
I have a question, I hope to frame it properly.
These officers entered the home with weapons readied because, as per their own statements, they had sufficient cause to do so based on their beliefs that the people in the house possesed weapons, this based on either reports or previous similar situations.
Janet Reno claimed that the use of force in the invasion of the home of Lazaro Gonzalez was neccesary because of reports received which indicated the presence of weapons. Janet reno and the entire DOJ claim that the weapon pointed at Elian and Donato hed the safety lock on.
Why would they send an armed officer into a home where there may be weapons and have him keep his trigger safety on?
Could it be because they lied and they knew that there where no weapons in the house? Or are they lying about the safety being on?
I think the answer is all of the above, what about you?
No agreement from me. Unlawful raids that result in unlawful deaths are the fault of the guy with the gun. The cop signed on for unconstitutional militarized policing, and he is responsible for what ever happens while he is breaking the law.
I have a neighbor who has a machine shop in his basement where he likes make his own guns. Some may be illegal. Is he putting us all at risk? Should we inform the authorities?
Better be careful, you may just have done that very thing.
"Our preliminary investigation indicates that the shooting was accidental,"
Have they already been able to determine that the shotgun was faulty and that it fired a round without having the trigger pulled?
I don't think so.
Not even a small step forward against the drug trade. And a huge step backward in restoring American's trust in their GOV'T.
I'm going to play devil's advocate and point out that the only reason that there are meth labs in neighborhoods is because the government gets to pick and choose what addiction the citizens are allowed to have.
There are no distilleries or cigarrete plants in neighborhoods are there?
Agreed, Jim - it does need to stop. It's WAY out of control.
Now that "Hate Crime" legislation has passed in the House, How long before they come for us?
That's the question, isn't it? A friend of mine with a radio program - Steel on Steel - has been saying for years that when they link up "hate crimes" with "forfeiture" we're in for a world of hurt. It's almost here.
Johassen--- I did not type that; I was responding......to the following:
I have a neighbor who has a machine shop in his basement where he likes make his own guns. Some may be illegal. Is he putting us all at risk? Should we inform the authorities? 105 Posted on 09/14/2000 13:06:48 PDT by eniapmot
>>Scumbags strike again! Where is their "for the children" cry, now? Dismantle this crap, or the American people will speak<<
We've came a far piece down this road. Will political due process get us back in before sundown, do you think?
I have read your posts many times and find myself agreeing with you more than anybody on FR.
I do have some differences on this one tho.
I have often heard that old expression, "there are no AD's" as a matter of fact there are a few, due to defective guns but the point is valid. The real problem is the cop having the gun pointed at the 11 year old. I can see no reason for that at all unless the child was literally trying to kill the cop.
I agree that drug dealers are the scum of the earth. I personally would not care if God were to suddenly strike them all dead. I do think the drug laws are bad policy even tho I agree that usage would increase, at least temporarily if they were legal. For some reason, I could never understand the desire to use them in the first place. Then again being a Southern Baptist, I feel the same way about drinking and smoking.
I guess there are situations where a SWAT team is needed but they really aren't that many. I personally think all Cops should be trained to that standard and issued whatever guns they need, but nearly all PD's need an attitude adjustment.
We need to put a stop to cops approaching cars with their guns drawn unless there is real danger. They need to just back off in a lot of situataions where they feel justified in shooting, supposedly for their own saftey. Yes there are times when such a policy would place officers in danger, but that should be part of the job. In other words, they should be willing to take more of a risk in order to decrease the risk to civilians.
Cops today seem to have the attitude that they can do just about anything, and have the courts back them up if it is for their own safety. This includes many illegal searches and seizures etc.
As I said before, I agree with you nearly always, and BTW and retired from law enforcement, but take issue on this one.
Yes there are times when such a policy would place officers in danger, but that should be part of the job. In other words, they should be willing to take more of a risk in order to decrease the risk to civilians.
What agency were you with?
>>What are you planning to do about it?>> THAT is the question. And if you think voting booths are the answer, look at our informed electorate and reconsider.
Did I ask you a question?
It will only stop when "We the People" make it stop Jim. And that will only happen when enough of us are willing to be more active and more in their face.
The sad fact is that the GOP has been part and parcel to passing most of the anti-constitutional, er... anti-crime and anti-terror legislation that has enabled these type of tactics and made this type of tragedy so prevelant. Sure, it would have been even worse without the GOP taking some of the edge off, but it is what it is nonetheless.
It will take enough of us, in a grassroots manner, getting in their face and forcing them to not only back down but to reverse all of these bull-crap laws. And it will require risk as we tell them matter of factly and forthrightly that the line has been reached and they dare not cross it.
In the mean time, sadly, tragically ... add another body to the pier.
I'm not talking about Koresh, or Ruby Ridge, which I think people should be in jail for. Thats a whole different ball game.
>>Another one to remember. Remember Vickie Weaver Remember Waco Remember Alberto Sepulveda>> Amen.
Uh, excuse me but I think homicide has very specific requirements, like intent and premeditation. Maybe you should do a little more studying before you make such charges.
Uh, excuse me, Jack Webb Jr., but its murder and manslaughter and the like in their various degrees that have very specific requirements like intent and premeditation, not homicide, which is a general police term for an action in which someone was killed by somebody else. Yes, the boy's death was homicide--whether it was murder or manslaughter is another issue.
Maybe YOU should do a little more studying (in your case the Bill of Rights as well as categories of crime) before you make such charges.
Eighty-nine percent (89%) of police departments have paramilitary units, and 46% have been trained by active duty armed forces. The most common use of paramilitary units is serving drug-related search warrants (usually no-knock entries into private homes). Twenty percent (20%) of police departments use paramilitary units to patrol urban areas.
Also as you know a number of Federal Agencies employ armed agents as well!! The arming of American beaurocracies must be ended!
Good point, Born!!!
Last week or the week before, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously that citizens have a Fourth Amendment right to shoot cops who illegally break into their home.
The cops had a valid knock and announce warrant but only waited 5 seconds after knocking before busting down the door and entering with guns drawn. The suspect came out of the bedroom shooting and wounded one cop before surrendering. He was charged with and convicted of attempted murder of a police officer and with possession of drugs found in the apartment.
The court threw out the convictions saying the cops entered illegally. The illegal entry also made the dope unusable as evidence. So instead of a dope conviction the cops ended up with a wounded cop and a dealer back on the street ll because they violated the law. They also gave us a court of appeals case that says citizens can shoot cops who enter their home illegally and get away with it.
I would not count on precedents set by the 9th Circuit.
I reckon you live in some lilly white bedroom community and are probably eating brie and drinking a nice bottle of wine.
Come out to the real world. What am I scared of? Within a half mile of my house over the years there have been about a dozen drug houses. There was a drug related shooting 4 doors down from me. One of the biggest drug dealers in the county lived one block from me. My kids come in the house telling me they heard gunshots, and they do because I hear them too. (and it aint cops shooting)
Drugs are illegal. If the American people want to legalize drugs fine and dandy. To me it will be further evidence that our Nation has lost its soul. But guess what, you will still continue to lose your freedom because I'm right, we permit abortion and hedonism over God so we're getting our reward.
Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.
— Frederick Douglass, civil rights activist, 1857
Thats a whole different ball game.
In the case of Koresh, it wasn't. The feds claimed the Davidians were manufacturing crystal methamphetamine (which was untrue) in order to get the exemption (enacted in 1981) from the provisions of the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act prohibiting use of military forces domestically in civilian law enforcement.
>>Before I get mad, I going to wait to see if any information comes out on this. I KNOW that cop is feeling like Sh*t right now. I wasn't there for this particular bust. I do remember some raids back in the late 70's and tragadies do happen. Most of the time the cop was considered guilty until proven innocent. This guy is going through living Hell right now. If this father was involved in the manufacturing and distribution of meth, he evidently didn't care much for his family. If on the other hand this was a wrong address, then throw the book at them. When I was a Deputy I prayed for one thing, to end the shift in one piece and get home to the wife and kids. Even back then, in southeast New Mexico, we were pretty heavily armed (personally owned approved weapons). The big difference was we were a lot less confrontational. Kick ass when we had to, but use reason and respect to the citizens we served, but back then we were referred to as Peace Officers. There is more to this story that we know. I'm waiting to find out what else happened.<< Jim, my brother was a Deputy in Snohomish County WA for nine years. He saw this kind of thing coming as the norm. If you're looking for more information, you'll get just what they want you to know. Respectfully...
I got news for em. If anything like this ever happened to my kid I'd kill every sob involved. It might take me twenty years but every sob involved would die.
Distilleries yes, tobacco plants, havent bumped into any of those, although I live in the Nawth and we dont grow tobakey.
sure it can...
>>The Mainslime Media = First line defense of the Corporate Oligarchy. NOTHING good will happen until that line of defense is TAKEN out.>> OK, how?
that means they didn't find any drugs. if they did the headlines would have said "Hardened Eleven Year Old Drug Smuggler Killed In Shootout With Police."
"Unfortunately, we're seeing more and more defendants with guns," Dey said. "We try to take all the precautions to avoid anyone getting hurt. This is a tragic situation for all parties involved."
That's right, it's the gun's fault!
You're right nothing is sure or final with them.
Here is a partial list of articles re: no-knock warrants:
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38a4182544db.htm Stuart Coapland, Aurora CO pawnshop owner, suffered dislocated shoulder during no-knock arrest
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38a2c2d96f80.htm Ismael Mena, Denver CO resident, shot to death after allegedly defending himself with a .22 against several cops executing a no-knock warrant at the wrong house.
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a389cbbfb2025.htm Ismael Mena, CO resident,
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a387a62fe4bf0.htm Ismael Mena
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3858ea4f4fb4.htm Ismael Mena
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a384fb9a42830.htm Ismael Mena
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a37f3867141e2.htm Oops, You’re Dead, Bovard article on climbing body count from no-knock warrants, including 75-year-old retired minister, the Reverend Accelynne Williams, Manuel Ramirez, a retired golf course groundskeeper living in Stockton, California, San Diego businessman Donald Carlson, Everett, Washington resident Robin Pratt, etc.
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a37fb9b5921bc.htm Thread II re: Bovard piece
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a37f364174de5.htm Ismael Mena
I’ve read of at least a dozen instances of innocent people being killed during a "no-knock" warrant. I wonder how many similar stories we don’t know about because they were never reported or occurred before this issue began to resonate.
What do you do when you hear a crash in the middle of the night, and you find yourself surrounded by a dozen stormtroopers with itchy trigger fingers aiming assault rifles at your head? How in G-d's name are you supposed to know whether the people breaking down your door are law enforcement officers or criminals?
A high percentage of these no-knock warrants are based on false information and rubber-stamped by incompetent magistrates. If you're ticked off at your neighbor, one way to get even is to report him to the police for drug trafficking or making explosives in his basement. This insane and unconstitutional tactic practically invites this type of abuse.
Or better still, an angry citizen can report his pesky neighbor to the U.S. Fish and Game Commission. Several months ago, the magazine Field and Stream reported that U.S Fish and Game authorities executed a no-knock warrant against a citizen who was literally taken into custody from his bed by a dozen heavily armed agents while his wife was screaming. His crime: possession of undersized striped bass and wearing insufficient amount of reflective tape while hunting. Let me repeat that -- his crime: possession of undersized striped bass and wearing insufficient amount of reflective tape while hunting.
Until very recently, one would assume Fish and Gaming Commission agents to be Barney Fife-type characters. When a Barney Fife played by Don Knotts on The Andy Griffin Show arrests someone for possession of undersized striped bass and wearing insufficient reflective tape, the normal reaction is to roll on the floor laughing. The entertainment value of the "arrest" is well worth the $25 fine. Nowadays, however, Barney Fife is part of a SWAT team packing enough heat to take on a terrorist training camp. But that SWAT team is breaking down the door of *your* home in the middle of the night, and their laser-sights are aimed at *your* head. The current crop of Barney Fifes have played too much Doom, or have decided live fire exercises against unarmed civilians are much more enjoyable than violent video games. Instead of Barney Fife, imagine Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris with federal badges and M-16s.
When students kill other students at Columbine, the government rushes to punish the innocent (i.e. gun owners).
When federal agents incinerate women and children at Waco and Ruby Ridge, the government drags its feet to protect the guilty.
Was the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution repealed when we weren't looking? How can such Gestapo tactics be deployed against American citizens in their homes?
Law enforcement personnel like no-knock warrants because it gives them a huge advantage when going up against armed criminals. Besides, it's fun playing with nifty toys like MP-5s. If a few, or a lot, of innocent people are terrorized or killed when the cops show up at the wrong address, who cares? From their viewpoint, the stormtroopers' safety and thrills are worth the occasional civilian casualties. Besides, the occasional arbitrary arrest accompanied by overwhelming show of force reminds the sheep who's boss.
The judges who authorize these unconstitutional assaults upon the citizenry don't care either. Beginning in the 60s, liberal judges began expansively interpreting the Constitution to confer a host of imaginary rights not found in the text of the Constitution itself. At the same time, they disregarded a number of Constitutional provisions or construed them so narrowly that they might as well not exist. We are beginning to see the fruits of decades of judicial assault on the Constitution. A bizarro Konstitution of ersatz "freedoms" has now taken the place of the real Constitution that our founding fathers established. No-knock warrants are but one of the fruits of that poisonous tree. Our so-called representatives in Congress don't care because they're too busy enacting preferential legislation for large corporations and lobbying groups that give them hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Our police, our judges, our politicians, our federal government won't care unless and until this happens to *them* and *their* families. When stormtroopers appear at their homes and kill their family members by mistake, then perhaps we might see this lunacy come to an end.
Kick ass when we had to, but use reason and respect to the citizens we served, but back then we were referred to as Peace Officers.
Uh...I understand...I think. As long as you respect me as you kick my ass...well I guess it's OK then....
Drugs are illegal.
Only some.
If the American people want to legalize drugs fine and dandy. To me it will be further evidence that our Nation has lost its soul.
Yeah, look at all of those LEGAL anabolic steroids and the painkillers like Darvon and Percodan that athletes gulp like candy, and psychotropic concoctions like Prozac, Luvox and Ritalin (often forcibly administered) that have done all sorts of damage to young people's minds.
Heck, but those things are okay with our government (at least for now) so I guess they are on the list of "patriotic pharmaceuticals" leading us into a glorious future free of personal responsibility and into government/pharmaceutical industry managed "happiness."
The same hot air was used to pass Prohibition--and it failed badly. We never learn.
Sounds like a very interesting case, though. However, knock and notice is such a grey area. How were officers dressed, is five second enough, are 15 too many, etc. Many interesting questions. I'll check it out.
Assumed guilt? what about a trial? dont these things matter any more?
>>That's the real problem, police state terror--the same thing that got Vicky Weaver killed and the Branch Davidians incinerated. Drugs are just the bogey for more of this fascist crap, and too many Freepers gleefully take this bait--while those headshaved, sadistic, steroid-drenched, potato-brained swaggering SWAT goons and their enablers smile, looking for the next person to terrorize, knowing that any excuse, no matter how lame, is okay.<<
Agreed. Funny they found charred bodies with bullet holes with no guns around...
You need to move if you don't like it there.
Check your mail
I agree with you on a few points, I also believe that SWAT teams are being used way too much and for things they shouldnt be used on. I agree 100%.
I am also wondering what happened that the officer had his gun pointed at this boy. I would be interested in hearing what happened. I also agree that it could have been a defect or an accident, the truth is we dont know and there is alot of knee jerking going on, which I understand in light of the current political/tyrannical government situation.
I cannot speak for officers drawing their guns, when I feel uncomfortable I generally have my hand on mine. If I saw an officer that was pulling his gun frequently without reason I would bring it to his attention and there have been guys told about that on our department. If a cop draws his gun he better know what hes doing with it and have good reason to bring it out.
Best wishes.
Drugs weren't illegal until 1912. 10 year olds could buy heroin and cocaine over the counter and without a prescription.
Did our Nation have 'no soul' before 1912?
Just asking.
L
I agree with you.
"Drugs are illegal. If the American people want to legalize drugs fine and dandy. To me it will be further evidence that our Nation has lost its soul."
So, what's your drug of choice? Bourbon? Scotch? Vodka?
What brand of drug do you prefer? Marlboro? Kool? Benson and Hedges?
Want me to go into pharmaceuticals?
The war on drugs is a war on us......shoot back.
If this father was involved in the manufacturing and distribution of meth, he evidently didn't care much for his family.
So this somehow justifies this "accident"? I personally don't think the cop is to blame at all. He was doing his job. This is part of a larger tragedy. The war on drugs is really the war on the Bill of Rights.
I agree again, about steroids etc. Its all about the money. We in this country worship the Golden Calf, just as the Israelites did in the time of Moses.
Do you know what the Golden Calf was?
An Egyptian God of Sexual pleasure, Political and Economic Power.
So, we will get the same end that those did that worshiped the Golden Calf, we're seeing the effects right now.
Instead of the America of Brotherhood and Peace, we will have a Nation at each others throats, divided, hating and destroyed.
I KNOW that cop is feeling like Sh*t right now.
He doesn't deserve to live. The death penalty seems appropriate.
>>Instead of the America of Brotherhood and Peace, we will have a Nation at each others throats, divided, hating and destroyed. << ...with the rich and powerful laughing at their newest form of entertainment. Us.
He doesn't deserve to live. The death penalty seems appropriate.
This doesn't sound like you
No, our Nation lost its soul in 1973. Its been downhill since. You used to be able to buy machineguns in this country too and the crime rate was low.
Change the law, its fine by me. I believe drug use is wrong. And, I'd like to know how many of these kids were going down to the five and dime and buying and shooting up smack.
My knowledge of civics is a bit lacking, perhaps, as I graduated from a Government University... so could someone tell me what would be wrong with the people going to the polls regularly to decide what is best for them? This as opposed to electing bums to do what they think is right? Would this be an insult to the Republic? I am honestly seeking information here. Thanks.
I'm talking about the rogue cop that murdered this little boy!
I wonder how many of you care about all the families that have been torn apart by the frenzy of an addict in his delerium or need? I wonder how many of you have been subjected to the fumes of anhydrous in your eyes,nose and throat and then not care that a manufacturer has put his/her innocent children at risk by transporting it in the family vehical? I wonder how many of you have seen dead bodies of families in a mangled vehical on the road that got in the way of a zoned out crack head? I wonder how many of you would justify theft for the support of the addiction because the addict is no longer physicaly capable of holding down a job?
You seem to have had some experience with illegal drugs. But this cannot be possible. Drugs like Meth are illegal. Where did you get them? If they are illegal they cannot be available. Right?
Please excuse my attempt to illustrate absurdity with absurdity. The only way to eliminate drug crime is to make drugs legal, like booze. Then the crime goes away. No profit, no crime.
Either way, drugs are ordered like a pizza. And the drugs usually get there quicker than a pizza.
Shot a kid in the back? Jeez I hope they read him his rights. Otherwise they really could be in for some trouble.
All kidding aside, this has got to stop now. We cannot endure as a nation when the government uses tyranny a fear to hold us in thrall.
Murdered?
>>No, our Nation lost its soul in 1973.<<
Too true. How many babies have we killed now? 3,500,000 per year times 27 years... Looks like we killed half a nation (plus the kids they would have had...).
:(
I've played this game before. If you want to change the law, get the American people to change it.
I believe our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God is not going to reside in such a place. But then again, we dont want to listen go God today.
This tragedy is just a single incident in the larger unconstitutional war on drugs. There are dozens if not hundreds more just like it occuring every year.
Prohibition and a war on alcohol was tried in the 1920's. It required a constitutional amendment to enact that war and another to surrender it when the citizens realized that it (prohibition) sparked the largest crime wave ever experienced in this nation.
Now we are involved in yet another prohibition war and an even bigger crime wave. And this one was not even authorized by the people via a Constitutional amendment. This time, the government has taken upon itself unprecedented police powers and is waging a bloody terrorist war on the people without even a hint of constitutional authority or judicial restraint.
Prohibition does not work. The people who want to ingest these substances are going to do it no matter how many laws are written prohibiting it and no matter how brutal the police become in fighting it. The more militant the police become the more armed the drug traffickers will be and the higher the price will go for the illicit merchandise. The higher the prices, the more profit potential and the whole problem escalates.
The prisons are bulging to overflowing. Entire populations of downtrodden are being wiped out either by gangwars, police actions, or sent to prison on drug related charges. Our neighborhoods and cities are turning into war zones. Our children are being terrorized in their schools and homes.
When will we say enough is enough? We need our Congress to wake up and realize the failures of this ill advised and illegal drug war and to recognize the damage they are doing to our Constitution and to we the people, especially our minorites, whom are for the most part, the majority of the victims.
End the war. The prices will fall and with the profit gone, most of the problem will go away. Our duty is to educate our young, not to kill or incarcerate them.
He shot a 11 year old child in the BACK. I guess he was afraid the boy was going to fart on him.
FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAAAAAADDDDDDD.
I'm sorry. I was thinking in terms of the legal definition.
While I agree with alot on this thread, it seems to me JimRob's approach is more reasoned and less visceral.
How about we send the swat team to your house next. See how you like it. See what you think about the WOD when the raid is over...if you survive.
Viseral? They shot a child in the back in his own home! But it's O.K....
This guy is going through living Hell right now.
He needs to be. Sign me another disgusted California peace officer.
Can you advise where I said it was okay?
With all due respect, I disagee. If you legalize drugs we still have the problem of rampant hedonism in this country.
Until we stop abortion in this country we will continue to lose our freedom, God will not bless a nation that murders its children.
As they say on the street, this country is "off the hook".
Texas Mom, the drugs didn't kill the child. The ILLEGALITY of the drugs did that. The shotgun blast the the tragic coup-de-grace that snuffed out this young life.
Just like the ILLEGALITY of alcohol during Prohibition obliterated so many lives with the chattering of the mobsters' Tommy guns.
I'm not interested in playing games with you. The police murdered this child and we all know it. Some are willing to look the other way because they can "justify" it in some way. But you need to ask yourself; if you break into the neighbors house and shoot their kid in the back can you say I'm sorry and walk away?
Over 40 Million, and thats only in this country.
40 MILLION.
I was not playing games. Sorry if you thought I was.
If you legalize drugs we still have the problem of rampant hedonism in this country
And if you don't? At least legalizing them you take the kenard of drug raids away from the government as a tool to steal our freedoms. Many many fewer raids.
I'm conflicted over the War on Drugs. From my experience it seems like just a parallel path to the slippery slope we are already walking as a culture. However, I readily admit our results have been much less than satisfactory.
Might I recommend the following book to all interested parties:
Drug Crazy: How We Got In To This Mess, and How We Can Get Out
A very entertaining read, and the REAL story of how all this got started at the hands of a few power hungry bureaucrats should make any freedom loving American's blood boil.
I guess my point is not understood. It doesnt matter what we legalize or who is in power. We have murdered 40 million babies.
As long as we permit abortion we will continue to slide to tyranny. Immorality will destroy our country. I believe that barring a miracle from God we are on our way to a bloodbath worldwide.
Hear freeping hear Jim.
Regards,
L
This raid was about drugs. Not abortion. They don't raid abortion clinics. This child lost his life over drugs and I'm willing to bet he didn't deal them.
"Constans et perpetua voluntas, jus suum cuique tribuendi."
Welcome back.
Luis
I agree wholeheartedly. We are imperfect human beings. I think it a bit flippant that folks say that these cops just 'walked in and murdered that boy'. Or that every cop just likes to dress up in his Nazi uniform and shoot innocent people.
"Its not against flesh and blood that we fight but against powers and principalities."
pandoras box has been opened and its gonna be hard to get the lid back on and all the bad guys back inside.
Yep, and this is an abortion thread.
Abortion is horrible... yadda..yadda...yadda. We got it already.
Now how does this connect to drugs? You seem to vascillate between worrying about what other people are putting in their bodies, and the other half worrying about what they are taking out.
This thread is about a cop shooting a kid in the back after, against all the prohibitions in the Constitution, Illegally entering this mans home.
Care to stick to the point of the thread?
I personally don't think the cop is to blame at all. He was doing his job.
So were the Nazis........and the Romans...and....and.....and...
>>I believe that barring a miracle from God we are on our way to a bloodbath worldwide. <<
Anyone who thinks that God is still in good graces with this nation after killing 40,000,000 of it's own innocents is smoking something. His graces are wearing off. If that isn't evident, then perhaps you've swallowed something in addition. I don't think it's any secret where this nation is going.
I don't know why it is this way all of a sudden but extreme and gross police misconduct is almost becoming common not just at the federal level but your local PD is now featuring the same uniformed thugs. Remember these guys put the FORCE in law enforcement and make no apologies.
yeah, these guys do have a tough job, but that excuse for murder is getting a little old.......
We both know what happened in that house.
But in a way, I am not surprised. If we can't even see the virtue in defending the defenseless, is it no wonder that we can't find a suitable solution to drugs? Maybe we are simply serving our proper sentence?
I think it a bit flippant that folks say that these cops just 'walked in and murdered that boy'.
What happens to you if you break into the neighbor's home and shoot his kid in the back?
You're right. Wrong thread. Sorry. Back to the dead kid... the one... dead kid.
If we can't even see the virtue in defending the defenseless
What defense did the 11 year old have...
Dey said. "We try to take all the precautions to avoid anyone getting hurt.
Except they don't use their brains instead of the automatic weapons and find these people gassing their car or walking the street. Instead they in hide and ambush people in their homes with women and children around while they point their "assault weapons" and innocent people. "Oops. we killed one. oh well, shouldn't have been in the house."
This is exactly how Ruby Ridge, Waco and many other such incidents happen. Law enforcement can't wait to use those nifty guns and the Army Ranger wannabee training they received. These murderers could just have easily picked this guy up on the street.
Sorry. I must not be making my point very well today.
Quoting Darth Vader, leader of just a few storm troopers: "Perhaps you think you're being treated unfairly...?"
You're right. Wrong thread. Sorry. Back to the dead kid... the one... dead kid.
Last I heard abortions were not done with Magnum Buckshot. Nor are they done by no -knock raids by doctors doing house calls.
I'm sorry, but the reason I am mad is because this death has nothing to do with drug busts. Like David Koresh, the cops could've nabbed this guy anytime, anywhere. There was no pressing need to raid his home and family at 6 in the morning.
This entire raid was simply the government exercising it's power. And you wonder why people have no respect for the law? It's because the law has no respect for the people.
These cops KNEW there was a child in the house, and they KNEW where the father was before he went to bed and where he would go in the morning. There was ample opportunity to arrest him without this show of force and the obvious risk to the mother and son. They say they were worried about guns in the home? THEN DON'T RAID THE HOME, especially because there was a kid there!
The reason they raided his home like the gestapo is becuase this sends a "message" to others drug dealers. Well it's not worth it, not at all. The death, the violence, the civil liberties violations... they are NOT worth it. This violence only begets more violence, and the people (represented by the police) need to set the example. Arrest meth pushers if you must, but this kind of raid is almost always totally unncessary IMO.
Back to the dead kid... the one... dead kid.
how odd...
The only way to eliminate drug crime is to make drugs legal, like booze. Then the crime goes away. No profit, no crime.
I noticed that in what I wrote that you quoted there were no crimes of possession stated. Yes I have "been there and back" If you know anything about heavy crank use you will understand that I am one of the fortionate ones. If you choose to use it don't get in my face when you are under the influence please, because I might get parinoid about your parinoia and then we would just hurt each other. The point that I was making was that under heavy usage of 'meth' one looses their ability to behave in a responcible manner, that is a fact. As to the not stealing the components to manufacture with if it were legal?.?.?a thief is a thief, its legal to buy paperclips and pencils but how many steal them from their bosses?
I will reitterate, I think it is dispicable that a swat team went into that house at that time of day and with such disregard for human life that an 11 year old was shot let alone killed. And I also have very little respect for any person that plies upon the weaknesses of his fellow man to make a living. Stepping on toes here I am sure, including selling liquor to a known alcoholic. Yes it is a free republic or at least we think it was at one time and are trying by voice and vote to return it to what it once was. Time marches on and waits for no man, try to see that justice is done in your lifetime and you will have fought the good fight.
Civilians might start having "accidental discharges" on gestapo goons pretty soon too. 30-06 type.
The point that I was making was that under heavy usage of 'meth' one looses their ability to behave in a responcible manner, that is a fact.
That is indeed the whole thing in a nutshell. It comes down to personal responsibility. There are laws against theft, driving under the influence etc. The American system works only if the people are personally responsible. Something we used to be trained in by the church, and a live at home non working mother.
When the Sunday morning ritual of going to church was phased out the problems started.
Laws cannot replace the God we chose to leave behind.
Freegards.
If mass numbers of Americans would booby trap their doors and windows these anti-Bill of Rights thugs would stay at their donut shop.
Could I prevail upon you for a translation?
Oh, and thank you.
Take care Mr. Gonzalez.
L
That's why every single American has the duty to arm themselves as heavily as possible. This is exactly why the founders wrote the constitution the way they did. They would be pissing their coffins hearing about stuff like this.
Heck I'll take British soldiers in my house over a SWAT team any day of the week.
Most of these yay-hoo's that get into para military type law enforcement have a few screws loose to begin with. They are nothing but a bunch of wussie cowards who die quick or hide behind trucks when met with equal or greater force (think Waco and Colombine).
Get yourself something that will leave grapefruit size exit wounds, and pass it on to your children.
The Function of the Drug War
by J. Orlin Grabbe
"The function of the Drug War is to create the Drug Crisis. The Drug Crisis involves billions of dollars of hidden cash flow. Addicted to this flow of money are law enforcement agencies, drug producers and distributors, covert agencies who use it as a source of black funding, and politicians and bankers who are hired to protect the drug revenues. Addiction to drug revenues requires that the drug war be fought so as to be lost. Failure thus becomes the criterion of success."
The reason they do no knock raids is because they are cowards.
>>Something we used to be trained in by the church, and a live at home non working mother.<<
Women will never "go back" to what they once had. They have bought the lie that they don't need men. I wrote a page on this on a different thread, something about University women, and I won't flood it here. My point to this would be that women have lost their way amidst feminists and weak men. They have no clue as to what they want, and they have left the family that once made them so much more important than being just a working spouse.
And of course this 'accident' is by none other than a (?) 21 YEAR VETERAN, 18 years ON THE TEAM? In the BACK? ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE? If this shows the quality of the personnel comprising these teams, we ALL need to start wearing body armor, full time, short of disbanding these goons altogether.
(Psst, hey buddy, I just heard about a great party Lon Horiuchi's putting together. - wanna go? great networking opportunities.)
Here's a link to that thread I mentioned earlier: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39c108c5434a.htm
Thank you for that opening, look out toes here I come again;^)
The American system works only if the people are personally responsible. Something we used to be trained in by the church,////// When the Sunday morning ritual of going to church was phased out the problems started. Laws cannot replace the God we chose to leave behind.
That is why I thank Abba Father everytime I remember that He woke me up and let me get out of that lifestyle.
Each and every Sunday that I am physicaly capable I go to my church and am let to teach that Love and responcibility to those 3-5 year olds. I am so thankful He gave me that responcibility.
BBHN
I call them the SWASTIKA TEAMS. Missouri is having a big SWASTIKA TRAINING PROGRAM this week. The local news shows have reported on it like something we should all be happy about. Yeah right.
Guys,
I don't think anyone here is for drug dealers, if you've been around a while you should know that.
The problem here is a bands of over-armed yayhoo goonies unconstitutionally bashing in doors without serving a warrant first.
You don't throw the constitution out for whatever the good cause of the day happens to be. Today the good cause is drugs, tommorow it might be anti-abortion activists. Last April it was to "unite a father with his son" after the executive branch didn't get it's way in court. In 1776 the good cause was to house the kings troops.
This is not the first time this has happend. There are countless stories of inncoent "suspects" getting killed and having their lives ruined in these paramilitary raids.
Get it? Probably not. I'm guessing some of you might be in the "cops can do no wrong" crowd.
You might try reading the constitution.
"If you legalize drugs we still have the problem of rampant hedonism in this country."
Total BS. What proof do you have? I happen to think the vast majority of Americans know to stay away from harmful substances. What is your paranoia?
What does abortion and immorality have to do with the loss of your rights, drugs and this thread? Open the Bible and read the Old Testament and see what happened to the Jews when they rejected God and did things the way they wanted to do them.
Or, if you dont want to open the Bible, look to the Roman Empire. Or, if you dont want to look to the Roman Empire, take a look at TV and politics. Watch an episode of Jerry Springer or Allie McBeal. Go listen to Howard Stern for awhile. Their all the rage.
Look past the billboard. I guess if you cant understand that you may never understand.
This SWAT nonsense is completely out of control. <P> Here in Oregon, a local sheriff's deputy was killed in their annual SWAT training war games, when somebody forgot not to use live ammo and put a bullet in his head. <P> No, I'm not making this up. There currently an "investigation" into the incident. <BR>
Saw in the news today (The Oregonian) that an officer got shot by another officer during SWAT training somewhere out by the coast. I wonder if "oops, sorry, our mistake, see ya later" will cut it this time?
Thank you for the post, JR. It really means a lot to me personally. It is reassuring to see so many folks against the war on some drugs. We must hang together, or....well, you all know the rest.
Wolfie, thanks for the flag. See y'all at town hall on Sunday. Gonna test drive my headset mike tomorrow.
"Come out to the real world. What am I scared of? Within a half mile of my house over the years there have been about a dozen drug houses."
Imagine that Genius! There is money to be made in the blackmarket which your belief set facilitates.
Why don't you admit it is only about your gubmint job and pension?
Hmmm...that was weird. My HTML tags got converted. I'm using KDE Konqueror, so it must have done something weird.
related thread
The vast majority of Americans know to stay away from harmful substances? Now that is a good one. And what proof do I have that hedonism is rapant in this country? Surely you jest.
Oops...sorry. Related thread
"There was a drug related shooting 4 doors down from me. One of the biggest drug dealers in the county lived one block from me. My kids come in the house telling me they heard gunshots, and they do because I hear them too. (and it aint cops shooting)"
This ought to tell you somethin' Cap'n. You are losing and you can't win. It is impossible to control human behavior through government. You cannot create that lillie white world through brute force. You only create more problems. Get it through you skull Enabler!
OK, you win, my secret is out.
>>This SWAT nonsense is completely out of control.
Here in Oregon, a local sheriff's deputy was killed in their annual SWAT training war games, when somebody forgot not to use live ammo and put a bullet in his head.
No, I'm not making this up. There currently an "investigation" into the incident. <<
Lemme guess, the killer was put on... um... paid administrative leave (in Hawaii)?
Your rhetoric is very persuasive.
"There was a drug related shooting 4 doors down from me. One of the biggest drug dealers in the county lived one block from me. My kids come in the house telling me they heard gunshots, and they do because I hear them too. (and it aint cops shooting)"
This ought to tell you somethin' Cap'n. You are losing and you can't win. It is impossible to control human behavior through government. You cannot create that lillie white world through brute force. You only create more problems. Get it through you skull Enabler!
The government banned alcohol once. That failed but it did make the mafia rick. The government banned drugs once. That failed and made a lot of people rich. When the government bans guns it will not work. Prohibition never has worked and never will. Murder is prohibited and here we have the cops engaging in that activity...
How can any decent person live with himself holding a job in any SWAT unit anywhere in this country. How could any decent German be proud of being a member of the SS? This is becoming so common place, that SWAT is becoming synominous with EVIL. How many good things do we ever hear about swat? certainly not Columbine, and how many bad things do we hear every day. By their fruits, so shall ye know them. Would I get paid leave too if I shot an 11 year-old in the back with a 12 guage?
Surely there are losers in the world. They are given the exposure to justify more government. I too find drug use and abortions pathetic but your answers are too transparent.
Dust off your resume!
No, I'm not losing, America is losing, and as I fear, already LOST. On this thread and others like it I see alot of frustration about the government, and rightly so. People dont understand and they dont know what to do. So we crawl in our bunker and hate.
Like I said before, we are fighting a spiritual war. If you dont want to hear it thats fine. Look at the world today, its a virtual powder keg, internally and in foreign relations the battle lines are being drawn.
The human war is just a symptom of that spiritual war. You dont have to believe me, you may totally disagree. Just pick up the paper everyday and read it.
Obviously, we shall need to station one policeman in each home full time to head off "rampant hedonism".
What a great boon for the L.E. community!
"But guess what, you will still continue to lose your freedom because I'm right, we permit abortion and hedonism over God so we're getting our reward."
Nope! This will narrow our problems down to a manageable size and then you can focus on your fight to end abortion. Imagine the time available for your worthy cause. You'll be fighting a good fight.
Regarding money being made in the blackmarket, dont you think that the blackmarket is going to go on without drugs, or alcohol or any other substance? Lets just legalize everything and be done with it.
Ex-druggie I may be; Sunday school teacher I may be; But come bustin' through my door without giving me time to open it myself and you may be looking down the black tubes of death as others before you have been. Fortunatly I keep my safety on until ready to fire! And my SWORD is still the most powerful weapon on this earth.
>>No, I'm not losing, America is losing, and as I fear, already LOST.<<
America has had it's day. I've done my part to try and bring it back. No good. I'm outta here in ten years.
By the way, has anyone read the report from the UN meeting that Slick Willy attended recently? The following are in concrete now: Global court (not in the USA), global tax (like it or not) and global church. Sound like 1984? Better read the UN report before you dismiss it... Think gun thugs are a problem now? Hehehehehe...
No, it wont come to that, this show aint going to go on much longer.
Get your good laugh in now, your rights are going out the window. Soon you will either have to fight or give in. Either way you lose. The bill is coming due.
I'm outta here in ten years.
On which island have you purchased property and is more available? LOL
"The boy's father, Moises Sepulveda, was arrested and booked on charges of methamphetamine trafficking"
The government has thown the constitution out the window and the swat teams are now acting as cop, prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner.
Right along with blanket search warrants and roving wiretaps. And lest we forget, all this occurs during the big "tolerant" regime of the one who claims he feels our pain.
>>On which island have you purchased property and is more available? LOL<<
We bought the whole island, sorry. And no, we're not rich Republicans! :)
100,000 new cops on the street. 75,000 newly-armed, non-law-enforcement, federal employees during the past 8 years.
Going to be lots of early morning door-knocking if the goremunists win in November.
>>And lest we forget, all this occurs during the big "tolerant" regime.<<
Well, we are expected to be tolerant of them, but hey when it comes time to taking what they're dishing out, we MUST bend over and open wide.
Depending on private property rights and taxes, I would consider British Virgin Islands or the Caymans.
Where are you going, and do you think you will have 10 safe years left for preparation?
First of all who is going to sell something you can purchase in a store. And secondly the VAST MAJORITY of Americans do not take drugs. This small % of people are merely a nuisance that have created worldwide problems because government control freaks have to insert their authority. And we already know the end result and believe me it is gonna get worse before it gets better.
You are right to help people and fight to stop abortions, and to point out the divisiveness. Those are worthy causes. But this holding people responsible for the actions of a few has gotta stop. Kids are being Shot!
IMO the drug war has got to end. We have vast resources in this country personally and every American IMO still cares for one another. Brute force is just pissing people off, dividing us and creating more problems.
We can narrow our focus and really put a stop to REAL crime. We can stop this back-biting and fighting and help folks instead of arresting them or throwing them into gubmint clinic.
But I gotta tell ya. The junkie down the street is a lot less threatening to my family's freedom then the militarized law enforcement being set loose on America.
>>10 safe years left for preparation<<
I'll only need one.
>>British Virgin Islands or the Caymans.<<
Too warm for me. Further north, there must be something. Just north of Bermuda, perhaps. We'll take plywood for the hurricanes.
>>"Our entire department is in shock,"<<
WHY are they in shock? They should realize that when you keep arming these "commando wannabes" with shotguns and all other kinds of weapons,somebody is going to end up dying. This has NOTHING to do with that damn-fool bogus "War on Drugs",other than being able to use that as the excuse,but everything to do with the cops wanting to play "dress up" and go on a power trip. There is NOTHING that says they EVER have to arrest anybody inside their homes. If they had double-digit IQs they would realize the best and safest way to arrest people is when they are out of their home and doing normal work-day things.
We GOTTA stop this damn "War on Drugs",we GOTTA stop using SWAT teams for crap like normal arrests,and we GOTTA DEMAND our police agencies stop doing so damn much cooperating with the feds!
Love that heat, but the sun would be terrible for my old boats.
>>. I also note that there was no mention in the above story as to whether or not drugs were found in the home.<<
Frankly,I don't care if they found a ton of speed in the house. It wouldn't justify this childs death in any way.
>> Military hit squads running the streets in military special forces gear with advanced wheapons not even available to the public.<<
They are NOT "military"! They are dressed-up to look like the military.As far as I know,none of the weapons they use are not available to the public. At least not where I live. I talked to a guy a couple of months ago who just bought a A6 Browning. I know several people with Uzi's and H&K MP-5's. It all depends on what state you live in.
>> Military hit squads running the streets in military special forces gear with advanced wheapons not even available to the public.<<
They are NOT "military"! They are dressed-up to look like the military.As far as I know,none of the weapons they use are not available to the public. At least not where I live. I talked to a guy a couple of months ago who just bought a A6 Browning. I know several people with Uzi's and H&K MP-5's. It all depends on what state you live in.
Here's a quote for you all to identify the speakers and the year they said it... "This will be the first year for our country to have full gun registration. Our streets will be safer and our people more secure." Care to guess?
You ask: "When is some law-abiding, wrongly-accused, accidentally-attacked citizen going to waste a few of these Nazi thugs??? It has got to happen some time.
Well about a year ago in Portland the local drug squad did a smash in search warrent on a house where the owner was alleged to be growing some marijuana. About the time the first (female) cop came through the door he decided to unload a few rounds from a AR-15 at the smashers.
She died, the guy behind her was shot up pretty bad. A standoff ended a few hours later and the shooter was brought out buck naked and tossed on the back bumper of the SWAT van and driven around like that for a while, even though he was paralized from the neck down by the arrest.
Within 24 hours he had 'committed suicide' by hanging himself from his bed in the police guarded room. No one heard or saw anything.
The funeral for the slain officer featured police from surrounding states and a funeral procession about five miles long of police cars with flashers on. Very impressive and scary.
Finally, I belive the officers did not have a warrent, but were using a "talk and push" exception that says they can do this if they see crime, and they claimed to see a pot plant. I think they are supposed to come "talk" to you and then can "push" their way in ... a weird Oregon thing.
In general there was little press or community outrage at any of this, a fast investigation of the suicide, and no change in policy.
AH
Jim, if this were my child there would be nothing in this world that could stop me from killing the bastards responsible for this!
Aye. That is exactly the thing that will stop all this. Nothing else will.
Hold them personally accountable for their crimes against Humanity.
>>why in the hell would the cop have a weapon aimed at the child five minutes after entry??...<<
Because he is a drugstore commando who was scared to death,and he had the safety off and his finger on the trigger.
Travis Mcgee said: "Civilians might start having "accidental discharges" on gestapo goons pretty soon too. 30-06 type."
Go Star Go said: "If mass numbers of Americans would booby trap their doors and windows these anti-Bill of Rights thugs would stay at their donut shop."
At ease Guys, I appreciate your enthusiam, but it is not yet time.
Semper Fi