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The US investigation of the bombing of the USS Cole at the Yemen port of Aden has been blocked by Yemen authorities. CBS News reported on Friday, October 27,2000 that the government of Yemen had:
Tampered with evidence turned over to the US (which likely includes surveillance tapes and passports).
Disconnected phone lines with Yemeni officials who had cooperated with US investigators.
Refused to allow US investigators to interview many Islamic militants rounded up for questioning.
The CBS report is further corroborated by a New York Post article “Yemen Won’t Let FBI Grill Cole Suspects” dated October 28, 2000 and written by Niles Lathem.
The cause of the Yemen blockage of the USS Cole bombing investigation could possibly be attributed to the involvement of Yemen’s President, Ali-Abdullah Saleh, with Islamic terrorists as well as with wealthy Saudi business families, connected to terrorist Bin Laden and who have economic control of the port of Aden.
The following paragraphs are from a UPI story written by Eli J. Lake and published on Friday, 13 October 2000 and entitled “ For U.S., warning signs emerged in days before Yemen refueling stop”:
One such head of state is Yemen's President Ali-Abdullah Saleh, who told the Qatar-based satellite network Al-Jazeera on Monday (10/9/2000), "All Arabs are urged to support the Palestinian intifada (uprising) through various political and economic means and in the defense field." In speeches over the weekend,Saleh reportedly said he was opening his borders to mujahideen, or holy warriors. (My note: the Mujahideen are Bin Laden military men previously backed by the US against the Russians in Afghanistan.)
Hamas and Islamic Jihad even have official representatives in Yemen, while terrorist groups from Afghanistan to Algeria continue to operate out of the country. In an interview in March with the Christian Science Monitor, Ali Saleh Obad, the head of the opposition Yemen Socialist Party said: "This anti-terrorism is just propaganda -- it's just makeup on the system for the world to see."
He told the paper that Saleh's government still provides passports for numerous agents of terrorist groups.
---------------------------------------------------
At an inauguration for the port of Aden on September 11, 1999 the President Saleh delivered a speech in which he said ,"Today we are making history. I am really proud that this strategic project has finally reached light in Aden which is considered to be our main gateway to the world. The long waited dream has finally come to life. I really appreciate the efforts made by the Singapore Organization of Ports and the Yemeni company Yeminvest belonging to the Bin Mahfoodh Group.
This excerpt from Saleh’s speech appeared in a September19, 1999 Vol IX edition of the Yemeni Times in an article written by Ridhwan Al-Saqqaf.entitled “Yemen’s Most Promising Project On Track Aden Container Terminal Open For Business”.
The Bin Mahfoodh Group referred to in Saleh’s speech is also spelled Mahfouz.A review of Saudi companies reveals that one of the largest Saudi companies is the multibillion dollar M. Bin Mahfouz & A. Al-Amoudi Group run and owned by members of the Mahfouz and Al-Amoudi families of Saudi Arabia.
FR person henbane posted a newsday.com article dated October 29, 1999 and entitled “Clinton Confidant Vernon Jordan Now Connected to Terrorist’s Millions”. The article was about an AP story published in USA Today and written by Jack Kelly. This article states that a member of the Mahfouz family group (who had been involved in the illegal transfer of millions of dollars to terrorist Bin Laden) was placed under house arrest and had been replaced by a member of the Al-Amoudi family group to run the Saudi National Commercial Bank. The following paragraphs are from the article:
Businessmen in Saudi Arabia are continuing to transfer tens of millions of dollars to bank accounts linked to accused terrorist Osama bin Laden, USA Today in its editions Friday quotes U.S. intelligence officials as saying.
The money transfers were discovered in August after the Saudi royal family ordered an audit of the National Commercial Bank and its founder and former chairman, Khalid bin Mahfouz, the U.S. officials said.
Mahfouz is now under house arrest in the Saudi city of Taif. His successor, Mohammad Hussein Al-Amoudi, also heads the Capitol Trust Bank in New York and London, which is being investigated by U.S. and British officials for allegedly transferring money to bin Laden, USA Today said.
The newspaper said Amoudi's Washington attorney, Vernon Jordan, who also is a confidant of President Clinton, could not be reached for comment.
As previously discussed, the Mahfouz and Al-Amoudi familie jointly operate one of Saudi Arabia’s largest companies, the Mahfouz & Al-Amoudi Group. To put Mohammed Al-Amoudi in place of Khalid Mahfouz to run the National Commercial Bank gives the appearance of impropriety, like asking a different fox to guard the same hen house. This hen house has been sending millions to Bin Laden and both foxes who guarded it work for the same group or company run by their same families. I suspect that Mohammed Al-Amoudi could be just as loyal to Bin Laden as Khalid Mahfouz and that the house arrest of Mahfouz was only for show and that money could still be going to Bin Laden through the same bank!
But remember something else discussed earlier in my article. The Mahfouz & Al-Amoudi Group also have economic control of the Port of Aden where the Cole was bombed. The Group owns Yemen Holdings, Ltd. and YEMINVEST, the company praised by Yemen President Saleh in his speech for investing in and running the port facilities at Aden. So the company who runs the Port of Yemen is owned by the same Saudi businessmen known to have funneled millions of dollars to Bin Laden through a Saudi bank and who are friendly to President Saleh.
If the bombing of the USS Cole was an inside job by Bin Laden terrorists, were President Saleh and members of the Mahfouz & Al-Amoudi family group the men who let the terrorist bombers inside and the men who are now later protecting the bombers from US investigators?
By an inside job, I mean a job where those involved obtain special, closely held information vital to the timing and success of the job from those who know and have access to the details of the Aden port operations. An inside job could also include help from government and port officials to give terrorists special identification papers and safe passage into and out of the port and country of Yemen.
Another troublesome fact is that Abdul Rahman Al-Amoudi, founder of the American Muslim Council, has been linked by terrorism expert Steve Emerson and journalist Kenneth Timmerman to arranging large and questionable campaign fund transfers possibly involving known Arab terrorist groups to the DNC and to the Clinton/Gore reelection campaign in 1996. Also, just last week, Hillary Clinton returned a campaign contribution made by Abdul Rahman Al-Amoudi to her Senate campaign in New York after having been discovered by New York Republicans.
For more details and for references to the Timmerman and Emerson articles, please see my article, “Gore, Clinton & Some of Their Associates Linked to Terrorist Groups” posted on FR on October 19,2000.
Is Abdul Rahman Al-Amoudi related to the Al-Amoudi family group and Mohammed Al-Amoudi that are tied to the port of Yemen and to banker Khalid Mahfouz, to those who have transferred money to Bin Laden through Saudi banks and who could have been complicit in the Cole bombing?
Will anyone in Congress investigate the ties between President Saleh, the Mahfouz &Al-Amoudi Group, Vernon Jordan, Bin Laden terrorists, Gore and Clinton, and the bombing of the USS Cole?
Someone should also check into the claims of archy of FR that Occidental Petroleum had the refueling contract for the Port of Aden since Al Gore is tied directly to large sums of Occidental Petroleum stock.
If the bombing of the USS Cole was an inside job, who helped the terrorists get inside information and now protects them? Yemen President Saleh? Clinton and Gore? Mahfouz & Al-Amoudi Group family members? Occidental Petroleum? Or Who?
Yemeninvest, Singapore Port Authority, Yemen Holding Co.
Regards. S&W R.I.P.
Pardon the typo, if you please: "Yeminvest".
Regards. S&W R.I.P.
Very interesting. One very small correction/addition to be made though, is that the fueling contract for the Port of Aden was not to the parent company of Occidental Petroleum of Los Angeles, but rather to their subsidiary of CanOxy, of whom a 29% share is held by the parent firm, according to the linked article, CanOxy's blue army helps a desert bloom from the on-line edition of the Canadian National Post, which describes the details of Yemeni operation of Canadian Occidental Petroleum Yemen, the wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian Occidental Petroleum Ltd.
Additional information regarding the operations of Yeminvest and Arab Investment and Trading and the Port of Aden
container handling facility, Free Trade zone and refuelling contract matters are further detailed in the article Aden's port and free trade zone: Back to
the future from The Yemen Observer, which also detailed the interesting circumstances of the collapse of Yemen's only industrial bank last year, leaving a vaccuum that had to be filled somehow....
Sort of sounds like the collapse of Little Rock's Madison Guarantee savings and Loan and the moneylaundering through the Arkansas Development Commission some time back, doesn't it....
-archy-/-
Cui bono?
Regards. S&W R.I.P.
http://www.newyorkpost.com/news/14609.htm
All of this in preparation for a Wag the Dog just before Election Day that is about to happen?
Anybody know what happened to the USAF fighter squadrons that were en route to the Mideast from the U.S. last night?
Rogan to Briem: Clinton May Have 'Wagged the Dog' in Cole .
BUMP
Isn't it amazing how much real news we get from posts such as this one on FR? Long live Free Republic!
A "Wag the Dog" makes a lot of sense right now.
The bureauocracy in any 3rd world rathole like Yemen is always a sieve of leaks, I would not be surprised if the bad guys learned of the COLE's visit and timing through several independent means.
I would always take it as a "given" in arranging ship visits to ports like Aden that your worst enemies will know about it 5 minutes after the port officials.
That said.... What I really am burning to know is:
how did half of Yemen know in advance of the attack plans, and our CIA station in Aden could not buy a clue??!!
Sorry, your link does not work. Maybe the story was pulled. What did it say?
In an interview in March with the Christian Science Monitor, Ali Saleh Obad, the head of the opposition Yemen Socialist Party said: "This anti-terrorism is just propaganda -- it's just makeup on the system for the world to see."
If this guy is anything like the Socialists in this country, I must take this with a grain of salt also.
Here is a corrected link. It works.
http://www.newyorkpost.com/news/14609.htm
That link worked. Thanks.
McManus shares Travis McGee's view that everybody in Aden knew what was about to happen, except -- he says -- for the crew of the COLE. McManus seems not to exclude the CIA station from knowledge, and I'm not sure that I do either.
Sorry, I meant to address #15 to you too.
Text of the NY Post story follows:
COLE TRAGEDY HIGHLIGHTS FOLLY
OF CLINTON-GORE STRATEGY
Friday,October 27,2000
By BOB McMANUS
IT was little noted -and certainly not long remembered -
but a year ago the U. S. Army discovered it had been
stretched so thin by basic "peacekeeping" commitments in
the Balkans, it had to call out the reserves.
The Pentagon still cleaves to its official definition of
readiness: The ability to fight two Gulf Wars virtually
simultaneously, on opposite sides of the globe.
But last November, it was announced that three Army
National Guard divisions were needed to join Regular
Army units in the Balkans peacekeeping rotation.
Why? Well, for one thing, last November two of the
Army's 10 active-duty divisions had officially been rated
unfit for combat - and deployment.
The world has turned several times since then, and in
September, it came as no surprise when it was reported
that more than half of the Army's combat-and-support
training centers have officially been classified as effectively
non-functional.
It's not just the Army.
At the end of the summer, the Marine Corps was forced to
ground hundreds of combat aircraft - including virtually its
entire force of ground-support Harrier jump-jets - because
of profound readiness concerns.
And just last month, the Navy ordered a stand-down of its
entire 318-ship fleet for a review of basic skills following an
alarming series of at-sea collisions and groundings.
"We must stop and assess the critical areas of shipboard
seamanship and navigation," said Chief of Naval
Operations Adm. Vern Clark. "They . . . deserve our
special attention."
No kidding.
Meanwhile, news reports suggest the only people in Aden
harbor earlier this month who were unaware of what was
about to happen to USS Cole were the warship's crew.
Service in the armed forces is, by definition, about
accepting personal risk for a higher purpose. In that
respect, there are never any guarantees.
Still, it appears that Cole apparently was ordered to Aden
for refueling because Clinton administration cutbacks meant
there was no fleet oiler available for at-sea replenishment.
Thus, at the very least, the bombing underscores the
foolishness of the official Clinton-Gore
two-simultaneous-war strategy.
It also exposes Al Gore's contention that America's military
is "the strongest in the world" for the dissemblance that it
really is.
Of course the U.S. predominates militarily. That's been true
since Hiroshima - at least.
The relevant question is this: Is the military strong enough
safely to perform the missions that are routinely assigned.
The answer: Just barely today - and vastly less so than just
eight years ago.
George W. Bush said in the second debate that he stood
for a "distinctly American internationalism" informed by
"humble, but strong" sensibilities.
Teddy Roosevelt said the same, but better, a century ago:
"Speak softly, but carry a big stick."
Not to toss a skunk into the garden party, but when Newt
Gingrich was speaker of the House, he said any number of
times that the United States will travel one of two paths in a
post-Cold War world.
America will maintain - if not enhance - its ability to project
power in support of its legitimate strategic interests.
Or it will not.
If not, then America will forgo its ability to shape events -
indeed, to mold history.
If so, America will remain secure and predominate in a
fractious, often dangerous world.
The Clinton-Gore record speaks for itself in this realm - or,
rather, the 40-square-foot hole in the side of USS Cole
speaks for the Clinton-Gore record.
Who can doubt that it is time for a change?
XXX
EXCELLENT WORK! Thank you.
BUMP
BUMP
HA HA, did you think I would miss following this thread? NOT! Thanks anyway!
The cui bono approach is useful for developing leads or areas of investigation for gathering facts. But it must be applied carefully and should not be relied on to prove guilt.
The Cui bono approach is trying to assign responsiblity based on who has the most to gain for a given act. The problem is in defining what the gain is and weighing it properly. What is gain to some is not as much gain to others. Plus religious reasons, illogical reasons, or even mental instability blur the assesment of gain.
As noted the cui bono approach is most useful in establishing initial areas of search, knowing where to start looking, to help develop several possibilities of who might be involved.
But in the final analysis, it is facts and not cui bono arguments that are necessary to prove guilt or responsibility to others even if the cui bono approach was successful in pointing to the right people or group who should have been investigated.
Using cui bono arguments as proofs is tantamount to attributing motive and trying to explain why someone was involved. Using cui bono this way is extremely dangerous because it can damage the credibility of facts and of investigators if motive and why arguments fail even though the facts do not.
Cui bono can even be a trap laid by political types to avoid having to hold inquiries of the facts. If an investigator should guess wrong as to motive or as to why someone did something, then the someone may not be investigated at all by the political types even if the facts really prove the someone really was responsible for an act or event.
I had the legal cousel for the Senate Judiciary Committe, Kolan Davis, try to lay this trap for me so he could avoid having to hold hearings on the OKC bombing. He tried to get me to guess why and provide motive and who had the most to gain rather than spend his time assessing the facts I had gathered in the case. I told Davis that I refused to guess why and would only spend my public time presenting facts in the case. I told him I would leave the cui bono and why and motive assessment up to the political types and to the Senate oversight committees.
I also told Davis he should not use as an excuse not to hold hearings the fact that I refused to guess why or provide cui bono arguments. He still did not try to hold hearings even with the Pentagon terrorism advisor, Jesse Clear, telling him in my presence facts in the case that implicated the FBI in serious crimes and coverup. He is without excuse and I made sure I did not give him an excuse.
Sometimes people commit crimes and terrorist acts just out of hatred and vengeance when they have little to gain except for satisfying their own emotions. Other times, terrorist acts are carefully premediated to accomplish a desired long term affect or gain that may not be immediately obvious except to those carrying out a scheme or master plan.
I spend most of my time tracking the facts to narrow down the likelihood of who is responsible for an act. The facts in the USS Cole bombing point to either Islamic terrorists or someone who is trying to make it look like Islamic terrorists or someone who used Islamic terrorists.
Even if Islamic terrorists were involved, do not discount the fact that China and Russia are leading backers and suppliers of terrorists, giving them money, training and sophisticated explosives. And of course, let us not forget that our wonderful socialsistic and communistic President Clinton seems to be in bed not only with the Russians and Chinese but also with terrorist groups who donate to his campaigns. There are even European countries who could have been involved and could have provided training and explosives for various reasons.
We do not need to know why any of these people might have bombed the USS Cole in order to finally prove who did it. We need to consider why they may have done it in order to generate the possiblitities of who to investigate. We need to try to collect the hard, irrefutable evidence needed to prove who did it.
BUMP
BUMP
BUMP
Good work. I find myself at a loss for words on this USS Cole attack. So many common sence procedures were ignored...
Elevated stupidity goes vertical.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Time to crater Yemen, in a big way!
It's always good to see someone daring to ask the right questions. Hopefully it will encourage others to join you.
A lot of your questions could well have been asked in the aftermath of the embassy bombings. A lot of the talk about the connection between Clinton's zipper and the bombing of the aspirin factory and the unknown targets in Afghanistan, has obscured a more important question:
What kind of reprisal against terrorism is launching cruise missiles against a few assorted targets anyway?
Set aside the fact, for a moment, that the aspirin factory was exactly that.
Also set aside the fact the cruise missiles probably hit the sides of cliffs in one of the many gorges located throughout Afghanistan.
Again, the question remains:
WHAT KIND OF EFFECTIVE COUNTER-TERRORIST OPERATION IS THAT ANYWAY???@!
I will submit launching a few dozen cruise missiles and then forgetting about the whole thing are among the action of a criminal government which is more likely cooperating with terrorists rather than fighting them.
No doubt the scopulus reorum would quite agree.
And of course asking who might want the United States out of Yemen is quite different from asking who—singular or plural—among those involved in the attack might want the United States out of Yemen.
Regards. S&W R.I.P.
P. 15 for those who have no sustained interest in the subject, the method, or the criticism.
Regards to all. S&W R.I.P.
I just watched the movie "Rules of Engagement." It is a FR must see movie.
As for the subject of this thread, this sort of thing should not shock anyone who knows even a little about foreign policy. We have Senators Helms and McConnell who actively support Islamist terrorists in Chechnya and Kosovo. Helms and McConnell hosted Ilyas Ahkmadov (a vile Chechen terrorist and protege of Shamil Baseyev-- one of Interpol's most wanted and Khattab and Bin Laden's butt boy). Someone better tell these old men that the Cold War is over, and the mujahadeen monster we helped create will be killing our guys with greater frequency.
Pardon me, Ironword, I meant to include you in addressing the last two.
Best regards. S&W R.I.P.
Since the day before yesterday, except for what is in the mainstream, which we already have, this is literally everything that has anything to do with the Cole, except what the NSA wants to tell you.
The Navy Anniversary was the day the Cole was bombed. There is no page for the link, and no page for any other link
that works unless the Cole is only mentioned in passing.
I am posting this on the other thread as well to keep everything together.
The Memorial to the Sailors of the Cole was on the weekend the Navy was to unveil a monument to its Anniversary. Instead of a party, there was a Tribute to the Fallen.
STARTED HERE:!!!!
NAVSEA Wire Service 00-10 (July 6, 2000)
...at-sea testing completed aboard USS Cole (DDG 67) resulted in rave...
...his non-profit National Underwater and Marine Agency found Hunley...
www.navsea.navy.mil/wire/wire0010.html
NO PAGE HERE!
Public relations
...Szabo 12.09.2000 U.S. Warship USS Cole Visits to Koper Port...
...22.09.2000 International Seminar on Security in Central and SE
Europe...(This is what is on the Cole Link. It's about Czechoslovakia.)
www.mo-rs.si/mors/eng/pressrel.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.mo-rs.si ](and ditto.)
DESCRIPTION Of USS COLE from NSA:
USS COLE (DDG 67)
GUIDED MISSILE DESTROYER
DDG 51 UIC:
Class: 21941 Fleet: Atlantic Status: Active, in commission Homeport: NORFOLK, VA Date status changed: 06/08/1996 Maintenance Category: Berth: Force: Battle Force MARAD Type: Builder: INGALLS SB INC MS Delivery Date: 01/16/1991 Award Date: 03/11/1996 Age (since delivery): 4.6 years Keel Date: 02/28/1994 Commission Date: 02/10/1995 Launch Date: 06/08/1996 Decommission Date: Age (since launch) 5.7 years Years from Commission to Decommission: Overall Length: 505 ft Waterline Length: 466 ft Extreme Beam: 66 ft Waterline Beam: 59 ft Maximum Navigational Draft: 31 ft Draft Limit: 22 ft Light Displacement: 6767 tons Full Displacement: 8889 tons Dead Weight: 2122 tons Hull Material: Steel hull, steel superstructure. Number of Propellers: 2 Propulsion Type: Gas Turbines Accommodations: Officers: 26 Enlisted: 315 Custodian: US NAVY Ships Program Manager: 400 Planning Yard: Bath Iron Works, Bath, ME No changes to this information were reported since 12/14/1999
Search URL:
Happy Birthday USN!
URL:
http://www.spear.navy.mil/ships/ddg67/up9/Cole%20Celebrates%...
(And next, but I won't quit now:)
DOD hands over PKI responsibility to NSA
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The Defense Department this month officially transferred to the
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Another troublesome fact is that Abdul Rahman Al-Amoudi, founder of the American Muslim Council, has been linked by terrorism expert Steve Emerson and journalist Kenneth Timmerman to arranging large and questionable campaign fund transfers possibly involving known Arab terrorist groups to the DNC and to the Clinton/Gore reelection campaign in 1996. Also, just last week, Hillary Clinton returned a campaign contribution made by Abdul Rahman Al-Amoudi to her Senate campaign in New York after having been discovered by New York Republicans.
Somehow, I just knew there was a DNC/Clinton, Gore re-election/Hillary connection to all this money, when I first started reading this article.
Naturally, Hillary had no idea the money contributed to her campaign was connected to those groups. Yeah, RIGHT !
I haven't heard about word of this, except here at FR.
[OKC Submariner-- read what I have to say, it is most important you learn these things]
I have to disagree with you on Russia supporting terrorism. The Russians are fighting for us (the U.S./West) in Chechnya, against the vile and vicious Islamist terrorist campaign there. This Chechen campaign is backed by Osama bin Laden and Emir Khattab (the head of foreign Islamist jihadists/mujahadeen in Chechnya). In 1999, the Russian military was forced into storming Chechnya, due to explosion in Russian apartment buildings. Dr. Yossef Bodansky, foremost expert on terrorism and a Bin Laden expert (he's the Director of the Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare for the U.S. Congress and wrote a book last year on Bin Laden), testified earlier this year that forensic evidence uncovered in the Russia apartment bombing showed that the devices used there matched the U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. Even before this apartment bombings which force the Russian military into Chechnya, Russian citizens were forced to watch, almost daily, gruesome videos of Chechen terrorists chopping of the fingers of 11-year old Russian girls, chopping off heads of kidnapped business, policemen, etc.
Russia is one of the few countries that is on the front lines and actually fighting terrorism. Meanwhile, U.S. politicians, such as Jesse Helms or Mitch McConnell, support the Chechen Islamist terrorists-- both of them have hosted representives of the Chechen terrorist, e.g., Ilyas Ahkmadov-- wanted by Interpol for the barbaric 1995 terrorist hostage-taking of a maternity hospital (along with Interpol's most wanted, Shamil Baseyev).
But don't take my word for it OKCSubmariner, or the Russian media's word for it, read what the Chechen Islamist rebels have to say for themselves: Jihad in Chechnya
Actually, when you read what the Chechen terrorist rebels say, you might want to join the Russian military's fight against these slithering critters. I know I have, as a red-blooded American.
Here's something you will find most informative, OKCSubmariner.
CHECHNYA: The Mujahedin Factor (Dr. Yossef Bodansky)
This is the Port of Koper, where the USS Cole was dispatched on an earlier *friendly* visit...Sept, 09, 2000.
There are two other threads here which contain a lot of other information. I am trying to backtrack through my files and find some other articles.
The Port of Koper is the only maritime cargo port in Slovenia and represents the shortest link between Central Europe and overseas. It was founded in 1957 and expanded gradually into an important modern international port. Today the Port of Koper performs most of its services for hinterland countries such as Austria, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, southern Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Yugoslavia and also for Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Russia.
PLEASE READ
Don Feder: On Chechnya, the policy of U.S. is dumb and dumber
If the West isn't exactly repeating its Kosovo blunder in Chechnya, it's only because Russia has a nuclear arsenal.
So, instead of bombing Moscow as we blitzed Belgrade, we're standing on the sidelines chanting that the Kremlin is conducting a genocidal war.
The poor Chechens only want to be free — free to pursue their national pastime of kidnapping for ransom, run terrorist training camps, blow up Moscow apartment buildings and spread Islamic revolution to neighboring states.
Here's the Chechen War, round II, in context.
In June, NATO turned Kosovo over to our narco-terrorist allies in the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). Several weeks later, fighting erupted in the Russian republic of Dagestan. Coincidence?
Muslim guerrillas from Chechnya invaded with the announced intention of establishing an Islamic state. The Dagestanis — Muslims who would rather not have the equivalent of Afghanistan's Taliban regime forced on them — resisted. The Chechens destroyed villages, murdered men in front of their families and displaced more than 32,000.
Russia sent in the troops to meet the menace. In retaliation, a series of explosions rocked Moscow and other Russian cities in September, killing more than 300 people. How would America react if terrorists from Mexico started blowing up apartment buildings in Los Angeles?
At this point, the government of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin decided enough was enough and took the war to its source.
Moscow initially lost control of Chechnya in 1996, when Islamic separatists fought it to a draw. Thereafter, what passed for a government in Grozny has proved incapable of keeping order.
In the past three years, militant bands have taken more than 1,000 hostages. Russians and foreigners are seized and tortured. (A 13-year-old Russian girl had two fingers cut off.). Videotapes of the ordeals are sent to relatives with ransom demands. The money raised finances Holy War throughout the Caucasus.
International Islam advances on many fronts — Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Dagestan, the Kashmir and the West Bank. These campaigns are connected and coordinated.
Osama bin Laden, the Saudi architect of embassy explosions who also supported the KLA, has ties to Chechnya via Khattab, the Jordanian-born co-commander of the Dagestan incursion.
Yossef Bodansky, director of the Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare for the U.S. House of Representatives and author of "Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America," notes that Khattab has been a bin Laden protege since 1987.
In 1994, the Saudi sent Khattab to Tajikistan to aid Islamic revolution there, then transferred him to Chechnya in 1995.
Bodansky says forensic tests show the explosive devices in the Moscow bombings are similar to those used to blow up U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania last year.
While we fretted about the terrorist mastermind attacking America on New Year's, the Clinton administration continued to slam Russia for using excessive force against bin Laden's Chechen allies.
National Security Advisor Sandy Berger urged Moscow to "deal with it (terrorism) within the constitutional framework." How? By inviting the terrorists to a parliamentary debate? Resolved: That bombings and torture aren't nice.
Russian forces in Chechnya are waging a brutal war against brutal people. It's true, there have been incidents of indiscriminate shelling and looting.
What the '60s antiwar activists who run the Clinton White House fail to understand is that there will always be moral lapses in a counterinsurgency effort. (There were in Vietnam.) But, just as America fought for civilization in Southeast Asia, Russia is doing the West's work in the Caucasus.
Our miscalculation in Chechnya is consistent with a foreign policy that sees the Kosovo Liberation Army as heroes, the Serbs as a threat to European stability, China as a "a strategic ally" and Israel as the party which must sacrifice its security as the price of Middle East peace.
If providing moral support for Islamic revolution in the Caucasus weren't enough, by condemning Moscow's Chechen offensive, we are signaling Russia that, even after the Cold War, we are still its enemy and driving it into the arms of Beijing. Dumb and dumber.
Yemen was cooperating in this investigation and had been. The spin started to fly because the Yemeni Government gave a News Conference and said that they had evidence the terrorists were linked to Egypt. I can almost guarantee you won't ever hear that again. They have a videotape which has the Cole coming into port and was on the whole time she was there until the explosion. The Yemenis say there was no dinghy.
So now he question is, why would they say they have a videotape and then NOT show it? They said there was no dinghy or any other vessel that approached the Cole. If there is a videotape and there WAS a dinghy, why wouldn't the Navy, or FBI, or SOMEONE release it?
Nope. This was a clinton thing and he got what he wanted from Mubarak. That was the deal, and that is what happened. Mubarak would not put his life on the line if he had not been paid in lives.
I don't see any real evidence here for "collaboration". What I do see is stereotypes, misconceptions, and an active imagination. Whether you like it or not, Yemen is a sovereign country and US government agents have to work with Yemen to investigate this tradegy. Moreover, judging from the news accounts so far of the investigation, I don't see how the US government investigators are being hindered to any significant degree. Really a more fruitful discussion would have been to discuss the issue of why we are in the Persian Gulf in the first place and whether its time for the US to pull its forces out of the region.
Russia has its own private war with Islamic terrorists, pay back for their role in Afghanistan.
However, if you will read carefully what I put in reply #22 to Hopalong, you will see that I did not say which terrorists Russia is supporting these days, just that they have a track record for training and supplying terorists.
But to be more specific, Russia currently and has for a long time supported Iraqi and Iranian and Syrian terrorist groups including Hezbollah as well as Hamas. They also have a long history of supporting terrorist groups of just about any ethnicity around the world when it serves their interests.
The Russians know how to play hardball with any Arab terrorists that cross them. About ten years ago the Russians tracked down Arab terrorists who kidnapped their ambassadors in Lebanon, and sent the body parts and private organs of the terrorists to the terrorist groups they represented.
By the way, I have read Bodansky's book on Bin Laden and arranged for him to be interviewed in OKC about the OKC bombing by KTOK radio news director Jerry Bohnen last year. I have talked to the office of the other member of the Task Force on Terrorism, Forest Vaughan, who works with Bodansky. And I have talked for four years to the staff of Congressman James Saxon from New Jersey who is the Chairman of the Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare.
Bodansky, Vaughan, Saxon and even Steve Emerson will tell you of Russian support of Arab terrorist groups in Syria, Iraq and Iran and around the world.
"I just watched the movie "Rules of Engagement." It is a FR must see movie."
So did we here! ...But I wouldn't rank it a "must see". Starts with lots of blood and guts, then IMHO ends about twenty minutes too soon. Dang. I'd have loved to see that last twenty minutes, when the NSA puke gets his just reward. That would've made one hell of a movie.
bump
bttt
Good work.
BTTT
Why do you want to give Bin Laden what he wants?
Laden has stated he wants to force the US to leave the region.
I see no good reason why the US should leave the region.
You ignored the first half of my article where I fully document the deliberate lack of cooperation and roadblocks set up by the Yemeni government.
James Webb was the consultant on this film, that's why it's so realistic (e.g., the politicians viz. military guys).
I agree with you about the movie ending 20 minutes too soon. I was waiting for some "standard procedure to duplicate all tapes that arrive..." surprise and see the NSC jerk be taken down.
Btw, I loved the "G. Gordon Liddy Show" on Childers' car radio, explaining the case.
bump (#44 illustrates the difficulty, even among informed people, in understanding the rapidly changing world-- and Russia).
Btw, Shamil Basayev = kozyol yobanniy (particularly this new winter huntin season ;-)
The Yemeni Government WAS cooperating. Remember when Benjamin Netanyahu scooped clinton by announcing via cell phone, that clinton had agreed to release Jonathan Pollard?
clinton made that promise in front of the head Israeli negotiator.
When clinton showed up late for the official signing of the latest peace accord, he walked up to Netanyahu, kissed him on the cheek, smiled and walked out into the press room.
Of course, the first question the press asked him was about the release of Pollard. Clinton stood there on national television and laughed. He said Netanyahu must have misunderstood and moved it right to the signing, smiling the entire time.
When it came Netanyahu's turn to speak, (remember it was right after we had seen the clinton deposition by the Starr prosecuters where he had said a number of times he just didn't remember things. he was getting older and it wasn't that easy for him to remember things like he used to?)
Netanyahu must have mentioned clinton's *wonderful* memory 5 times, he was so angry. He was trying to give us a message just like the POWs in Viet Nam used to. It has always amazed me no one picked it up.
Anyway, the NEXT time there were talks clinton ordered their cell phones taken away and forbid anyone to speak to the press. Then, he sent Carville to frame Netanyahu and cost him the election.
The same thing is happening here. As soon as the Yemenis stopped filtering everything through the FBI, the Americans shut them up. Now they are becoming the *reason* we will never know the truth. If you think for one second the Yemenis aren't very aware of how easily clinton could flatten Yemen with a couple of flyovers, then, my friend, you have no idea what this administration is capable of.
BTW, it would not surprise me a whit if we were to eventually find out that Bin Laden and clinton were college chums at Oxford.
However, if you will read carefully what I put in reply #22 to Hopalong, you will see that I did not say which terrorists Russia is supporting these days, just that they have a track record for training and supplying terorists.
Sure, and if the U.S. was supporting the exact same groups the White House and the U.S media would be calling them "guerillas", like the K.L.A
Ultimately, the crux of the problem remains that the State Department sees blowback as an acceptable price to pay for engagement with individuals and groups responsible for the deaths of U.S. citizens.
What you say makes so much sense to me - Thank you for supplementing your insights with so much useful information. Keep us posted. BTW, I followed the frustrating trail also...and found sheilds up, cloak engaged.
Thanks for the heads up. I will bookmark it so I can read it later today.
17 Posted on 10/29/2000 19:06:29 PST by archy
Good post, thanks!!
It appears that, according to you, there are two kinds of muslim terrorists in the world: the ones declaring jihad on Russia, and the ones aided by Russia to declare jihad against the US. You don't have any evidence to back up your claims and only point out to some mythical support of Hamas and Hizbullah by Russia. I find the very premise of that Hamas and Hizbullah need ANY support besides their home states to be very false. What would Hamas and Hizbullah need from Russia (that itself is in the #3 on the jihad list and is fighting their muslim bruthas in Chechnya and Tajikistan) when they have the support of the muslim world? Mossad would have known all about it and would really try to change Russia's mind if that was true. Besides, Russia is battling terrrorists on its own soil, and cooperating with Israel that has a lot of former Soviet citizens. When you have facts, please come back.
That's not what the facts are. The most vile terrorists that declared that the US was the Great Satan weren't Russian friends at all, they were created and nurtured by the US government in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Russians have captured "freedom fighters" from around the world in Chechnya, inluding Yemen. Your suggestion that Russians may have aided Yemeni terrorists is absurd and indicates that you'd rather seek for a scapegoat rather than face the truth.
Your use of Bodyansky was a nice try, but I don't trust your interpretation of what he said to you. When he publishes his opinion, I will believe that. So far what I read wasn't any close to what you claim he told you.
Btw, Shamil Basayev = kozyol yobanniy (particularly this new winter huntin season ;-)
Is that what your girlfriend taught you? :)
What is your opinion of Putin?
The Russian government still persecutes Russian Jews, that is why so many of them have been ransomed out ot Russia to go to Israel. Ever heard of a programe in Russia against Jews? The notion that Russia is really cooperating fully and honestly to help Israel find terrorists is silly.
The Russians are already moving with the Arab satellites of the Soviet Union along with the PLO, Syria, Iran and Iraq against Israel. Arab terrorists include Arab nations like Syria, Iran and Iraq who sponsor terrorism with the direct help of Russia.
You did not mention my references to Steve Emerson, James Saxon and Forest Vaughn. Why not? As far as Bodansky's book you cannot read or you chose to ignore what he wrote. He wrote that Russia gave 100 suitcase nukes and other fissile materials to Arab terrorists and that Bin Laden is being taught how to use and deploy them. He also talked about this at his address at the Washington National Press Club last year.
By the way, I wrestle, play chess and poker, and have played chicken many times with Russian sub types. There are many smart,talented,peaceful, kind, Christian Russians. And there are also Godless KGB communist types who would enslave the world and use Arab terrorists and Russian mobsters to do it.
OKCSubmariner-Served and worked on Polaris & Trident ballistic missile subs and Los Angeles class attack subs. I worked directly for a Russian Jew, the father of the US nuclear Navy, Hyman G. Rickover. Rickover's father, Abraham Rickover imigrated to Chicago from Russia. Rickover knew and told me all about Russian persecution of Jews that still goes on to this day.
I have Russian friends who present a totally different view of Russia's involvement with Arab terrorists. I will take their word for it. The Russian government has never been kind to its people nor told them the truth about Jews or Arab terrorists (even today) except maybe during World War II in order to survive.
Suggested reading:
The book of Ezekial(Bible) Chapters 38 & 39 God tells you what happens to Russia when it tries to invade Israel with an Arab confederation of nations (including Arab terrorists). Also read the book of Joel about this even more. The Russians lose big time and God directly intervenes to make sure they lose.
Accept and believe on Jesus Christ as your Savior and the Son of God and you will have eternal life.
But to be more specific, Russia currently and has for a long time supported Iraqi and Iranian and Syrian terrorist groups including Hezbollah as well as Hamas.
Russia supports Hamas and Hizbollah? This is news for me, as is probably for most other people. Provide proof.
They also have a long history of supporting terrorist groups of just about any ethnicity around the world when it serves their interests.
You just promised to be more specific and then immediately start Russia this and Russia that. Be more specific. And remember to use Russia for the events starting in 1991.
The Russians know how to play hardball with any Arab terrorists that cross them. About ten years ago the Russians tracked down Arab terrorists who kidnapped their ambassadors in Lebanon, and sent the body parts and private organs of the terrorists to the terrorist groups they represented.
If the Russians are so skilled and mighty, how come they are still fighting the Chechens? Something must be wrong in your picture.
Michael, look at FrostFire's posting.
The following may sound somewhat harsh, but there is absolutely nothing personal against you or anyone else. You must be a great person, but your views are obsolete and based on some rumours that you are too willing to believe.
The Russian government still persecutes Russian Jews, that is why so many of them have been ransomed out ot Russia to go to Israel. Ever heard of a programe in Russia against Jews? The notion that Russia is really cooperating fully and honestly to help Israel find terrorists is silly.
Please provide some details of persecution of the Jews in Russia and what's that ransomed mean. You last sentence doesn't make any sense, "Russia is really cooperating fully and honestly to help Israel" just sounds silly.
The Russians are already moving with the Arab satellites of the Soviet Union along with the PLO, Syria, Iran and Iraq against Israel. Arab terrorists include Arab nations like Syria, Iran and Iraq who sponsor terrorism with the direct help of Russia.
Explain what is it in the Russian position vis-a-vis the Middle East that differs significantly from, let's say, other European countries. Sentences like "Arab terrorists include Arab nations like Syria, Iran and Iraq who sponsor terrorism with the direct help of Russia" don't make sense, "Arab terrorists that include Arab nations"? "Sponsor terrorism with the direct help of Russia"? Where do you get those?
You did not mention my references to Steve Emerson, James Saxon and Forest Vaughn. Why not? As far as Bodansky's book you cannot read or you chose to ignore what he wrote. He wrote that Russia gave 100 suitcase nukes and other fissile materials to Arab terrorists and that Bin Laden is being taught how to use and deploy them. He also talked about this at his address at the Washington National Press Club last year.
I haven't read those books and not going to read them, since I have a job to do and hardly have enough time to read and absorb technical books, if I want to have vacations and some spare time. The "100 suitcase nukes" is an interesting allegation that sounds totally outlandish. Most everyone would agree that Bil Laden's not a friend of Russians and if the terrorist had had those nukes, you'd know by now.
By the way, I wrestle, play chess and poker, and have played chicken many times with Russian sub types. There are many smart,talented,peaceful, kind, Christian Russians. And there are also Godless KGB communist types who would enslave the world and use Arab terrorists and Russian mobsters to do it.
That just sounds like a Hollywood movie. I say hahahaha.
OKCSubmariner-Served and worked on Polaris & Trident ballistic missile subs and Los Angeles class attack subs. I worked directly for a Russian Jew, the father of the US nuclear Navy, Hyman G. Rickover. Rickover's father, Abraham Rickover imigrated to Chicago from Russia. Rickover knew and told me all about Russian persecution of Jews that still goes on to this day.
Of course, the Jews are persecuted everywhere, that what you'll hear from many Jews. I suggest you provide something better than some old Jew's banter.
I have Russian friends who present a totally different view of Russia's involvement with Arab terrorists. I will take their word for it. The Russian government has never been kind to its people nor told them the truth about Jews or Arab terrorists (even today) except maybe during World War II in order to survive.
Of course, the Russians just don't know the truth. That's it. I have Russian friends too, they must know much less than YOUR Russian friends.
Suggested reading:
The book of Ezekial(Bible) Chapters 38 & 39 God tells you what happens to Russia when it tries to invade Israel with an Arab confederation of nations (including Arab terrorists). Also read the book of Joel about this even more. The Russians lose big time and God directly intervenes to make sure they lose.
Accept and believe on Jesus Christ as your Savior and the Son of God and you will have eternal life.
Thanks, I'll start reading more as soon as I retire.
OKC you have stimulated some very useful conversation, and despite differences of opinion on the bottom line, all here have provided valuable info and insight (and have done so almost exclusively without resorting to personal attack or the hyperbole which so often manifests itself on subjects such as this).
I need a lot more information before I'm ready to draw conclusions about much of this, but I note with interest that almost every act of the Clinton Administration which has any effect on ME terrorists or terrorist groups seems to in some way benefit them.
As to Russia' role in this, what is most clear is that they are desperately fighting Islamics in Chechnya and it seems no stretch to call those Chechens terrorists. Regarding implications of Russian support for ME terrorists outside Chechnya and Afganistan, hard facts seem to be lacking, but it would not be unusual for any government to fight one wing of a group as diverse as Islamics and support another wing of the same disjointed group.
Excellent contributions by all on this thread. Thanks.
Is "Islamics" an acceptable term?)
Not all Arabs or Islamics are terrorists. But there are Islamic terrorists who are not Arab and there are Arab terrorists who are not Islamic.
When am Islamic cleric issues a Fatwah against US targets and citizens and Islamic followers carry out the fatwah then they are Islamic terrorists regardless of whether or not they are Arabic.
And terrorists sponsored by Arab nations such as Syria, Iran and Iraq carrying out a military mission without a direct religious reason are Arab terrorists.
Of course, a combination of both exists. An Arab who is a follower of Islam and who follows the military orders of his country and of a religious Fatwah is an Arabic and Islamic terorist.
Syria, Iraq and Iran are Russian client states which Russia provides military weapons to destabilize the Middle East. The Russians give arms, money, training to terrorists from Syria, Iran and Iraq. Read the report of the US House Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare for the Specifics of Russia aiding terrorists from these terrorist nations. It can be found by doing a simple search on yahoo or any internet service like Lycos, Hotbot, etc.
These nations are on the State Department's list of terrorists in part because they are backed by Russia. Last year the State Department was ripped off by RUSSIAN spies who bugged the State Department and stole sensitive laptops -this was in the Washington Post and New York Times.
Go read the Pentagon's declassified version of the report on terrorism, "Terror 2000" for details of the terrorist nations and terrorist groups Russia supports. I know the man personally who wrote most of it. You can find it on the Pentagon and Congressional public web sites. You can get a copy sent to you by calling Congressman James Saxon's office, Josef Bodansky, or Vaughn Forest.Try an internet search as well for the report and for Russia's support of terrorist groups.
You say Bodansky does not think the Russians are not helping terrorists in Iraq, Syria and Iran? You are grossly misinformed or deceived or know better-I do not know which. Also you claim to know about Bodansky and his book but you discount what he said about suitcase nukes. You obviously have not read his book or chose to ignore the parts you do not want others to know about. Go read his book again or call Congressman James Saxon's office.
You have not told me your opinion of Putin yet.
Why do you think a fourth of Israel's population came from Russia and the Soviet Union and why they did not want to stay in Russia if things are so wonderful there for Jews?? You say hahahaha and call my description of KGB communists as coming from a Hollywood movie. Do you deny the KGB operates in Russia under Putin? Do you deny that the Communist party still runs Russia? If you deny these things, then I say hahaha to you for your joke or for being out of touch with reality.
If you wait to retire to read the Bible verses and to accept Jesus Christ as Savior, there is a good chance it will be too late for you. You may get run over by a truck or die of a disease or be killed during the Russian attack on Israel before you retire. Your only safety lies in Jesus Christ no matter what happens before after you retire.
You may get run over by a truck or die of a disease or be killed during the Russian attack on Israel before you retire.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions about your views before me wasting any more time responding. I am officially through with you.
You took my comment differently from the way I meant it.
The same bad things could happen to me. I could get run over by a truck, I could die of a disease or I could get killed if there was a major war related to a Russian invasion into the Middle East. The point is, none of us know when we might die, and now is the appointed time to seek God and Christ and turn one's life over to him since we cannot know our personal future with certainty.
I am very sorry that my comment offended you in this area, it was really meant in a good way trying to encourage you to read and accept Jesus now rather than wait later.
I pray that God will bless you and show you mercy and that you live a long and prosperous life. I also pray that God will show me mercy as well and give me a long and prosperous life. I want the best for you as much as I want the best for myself. My opinion is that Jesus Christ is the best for everyone.
Much has been made on this thread by others that the Russians could not and should not be looked at as being involved in the bombing of the USS Cole.
I agree that the Russians MAY not have been involved even indirectly, I do not know.
However, I have every reason to believe that they COULD have been involved, even directly.
I will not exclude them from among the possibilities just because doing so may offend the sensibilities of others.
The policy of the Russian government is what is being considered here and not the Russian people themselves.
On the other hand, those reading this thread should not get a false impression that the Russians are the only suspects. That would be an unproductive diversion. The Chinese, terrorist nations like Syria, Iran, Libya, Iraq, etc. could also be involved as well as individual terrorist groups or organizations such as Mujahideen, Bin Laden,Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad,Hamas, the PLO, etc. Even some people in Bosnia or Serbia could have wanted the USS Cole bombed out of revenge for the NATO attacks on Kosovo.
And the other possibility is a combination of these other possibilities where various groups, nations and individuals collaborate, particularly those like Bin Laden who want to drive the US from the region.
But certain irrefutable facts presented in this article remain.
The President of Yemen, Saleh, encougaed Islamic terrorists to attack targets in the Middle East and to come into his country.
And his government blocked the US investigation.
And the Port of Aden is in the economic control of those known to have funneled money to the terrorist Bin Laden.
This is a hypothetical question, but it has also been suggested on FR that the U.S. has been secretly assisting the Chechens in their rebellion against Russia. The motive suggested of this assistance is a U.S. desire to cut Russia out of oil from the Caspian Sea. If true, this would be occurring during a time of terrible poverty for many Russians.
If the above is true, do you think Russia would have any justification for orchestrating an attack on the Cole?
Keep in mind I am not saying that the Russians (or maybe even the Iranians) had anything to do with the Cole incident. But I think we had better make damned sure our own hands our clean before we cry foul.
To give an expanded, broader response to your series of questions that goes well beyond just the Russians:
One of many widely different possibilities is that the USS Cole was bombed in retaliation for any actions of the Clinton Administration deemed as corrupt by the bombers.
Unfortunately, our US government will be held accountable for any corrupt actions taken under Clinton even if you and I and the majority of the US people would disapprove of and try to stop the corrupt actions.
It is even possible that Clinton deliberately did something corrupt to provoke the attack on the USS COle for reasons we would not approve of.
But nevertheless, we still must learn who the attackers, bombers are regardless of their motives or reasons even if understandable.
We do not know why the bombing was done and it would be a bad diversion to speculate on why until we get the facts of who did it.
Another possibility we must guard against is that those responsible are trying to divert attention away from themselves and the facts by getting people to incorrectly speculate on why rather than stay focused on the facts.
Perhaps you have the inclination to do a more detailed post gathering the info presented on this thread. This might help you;
For additional info on the background of Amb. Bodine see my 102.
regards.....Covenantor.
If it is true, and I believe it is,that Al-Amoudi has continued giving money to Islamic terrorist groups, we are in deep,deep do-do.If Al-Amoudi is giving money from the Mahfouz cartel, watch out. Go to
http://allafrica.com/stories/199710240056.html
I have really wondered why the media has not picked up on the Mahfouz-Al-Aboudi-PSA-Cole mess.Well, now I know why. Many of our cowardly, lazy corrupt Congress have participated in it.Searching Yemen and Cole and Mafouz and Al-Almoudi has made me sick. I feel as though I am at the early stages of World War III.But this one is going to be completely different. Its gonna be electronic, economic and terroristic.The sins of the Crusaders, the English and America towards the Arab Muslims will come home to haunt us. I dont want oil to be the reason for one baby or grandmother to die.But it has been , and it will continue to be. Let them have their oil.Come home. Save us.
madrussian,
It is not *Islamic Jihadists* Russia has committed itself to. It is the leaders or potential leaders of COUNTRIES, Russia has committed to. It has supported insurgencies anywhere in the world it thought it could gain some measure of control. It supported Castro. Supported the Communist Government in Nicaragua. Supported the South African Rebels in South Africa of which Winnie Mandala was the leader. Supported the Angolan insurgency. Supported Iraq. And Iran. So did we. Russia invaded Afghanistan...We supported the Mujahadeen. Russia supports many of the Arab COUNTRIES with arms and training. We have, and are, supporting Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, and the United Arab Emirites....having replaced Russia as the supplier of arms, training, and received only lip service for it, (except from Oman,) just like the Russians received. Russia supported the communists who withheld food and medicine from the Ethiopians who were starving by the thousands during the famine. Russia supports Sudan, Syria, Algeria, Libya, and DID support Yemen. Russia supported Milosevich. Politics, my friend, makes strange bedfellows. The Arabs hate both of us. The Jihadists hate both if us. It is probably the ONLY thing the Islamic World has in common.
Re: #69
Russia was not in on this one. This was a clinton/Mubarak, full meal deal. An eye for an eye, the law of the jungle...as raw as it can get.
Clinton/Mubarak, huh? That's a theory I have not heard.
If the Cole is the eye we gave up, what was the eye we took?
BTW, I have generally avoided this type of speculation mostly for the reasons OKC has suggested.
But I am curious, since you brought it up.
Btw, Shamil Basayev = kozyol yobanniy (particularly this new winter huntin season ;-)
Is that what your girlfriend taught you? :)
No, (btw, I said my last girlfriend was Norwegian [-American], not Russian), what I attempted to say was transliterated Russian from I phrase book I perused while at Borders looking for a Leopold and Loeb book. I was trying to say Basayev is a f***ed goat. :-)
madrussian has posted on other threads the names of Christian martyrs (Russian soldiers) who have died in Chechnya. Many captured Russian soldiers have been decapitated for refusing to remove their crosses from around their necks and renouncing their Christian beliefs. Now, how many people do you personally know, OKCSubmariner, who have been killed because they refuse to renounce Jesus Christ???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your tax dollars and military are used to bomb Christians for Islam. Nice, huh??!!! You denoucing these Russian soldiers is equivalent to spitting on early Xtn martyrs!!
Russia supported Milosevich.
Against the Islamic narco-terrorists KLA? Those bastard Russians have their nerve, siding with Christians who merely want to live on their own land and be Christian!! Read the David Binder article in The New York Times , Nov. 1, 1987. You can read about all the Christian churches being burned and Serb women raped, and terrorist killings of Christians by Islamist Kosovar Albanians-- which, btw, antedates Milosevic!
I know the translation :) I've never seen phrase books like that.
The same bad things could happen to me. I could get run over by a truck, I could die of a disease or I could get killed if there was a major war related to a Russian invasion into the Middle East. The point is, none of us know when we might die, and now is the appointed time to seek God and Christ and turn one's life over to him since we cannot know our personal future with certainty.
You don't understand what I meant and still repeating the same outlandish fantasy of Russian invading Israel. Our positions are too far apart for me trying to argue with you. There is very little we'd agree upon to have a meaningful argument.
It is even possible that Clinton deliberately did something corrupt to provoke the attack on the USS COle for reasons we would not approve of.
I believe I read shortly after the attack on the COLE that the COLE was one of the platforms from which the missiles were launched against Afghanistan and the Sudan in Aug. '98. Anybody know whether there is any truth in that claim? Would an Aegis destroyer have been capable?
You have set up a fake, diversionary straw argument.
I never denounced any Russian soldiers or Christian Russian soldiers. In fact I said there are many fine, peaceloving, kind, Christian Russians in one of my early posts to the MadRussian.
The problem I have is with the policies of the Russian government, not with the Russian people or with their soldiers or sailors, some of whom I admire.
But this is not to say that the Russian government has not sponsored Arab terrorists in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc, becasue it has.
Let me point out a few brute facts for you, and, as an American, rather sad ones.
When the Russian Navy held a memorial for the sailors of the Kursk, it was a Christian ceremony, conducted by an Orthodox priest, with the cross evident aboard the Russian Navy ship.
When the U.S. Navy held a memorial for the sailors of the U.S.S. Cole, it was secular, non-Christian, with no religious symbolism visible.
When the American military fought in the Gulf, all soldiers voluntarily surrendered their Christian items-- Bibles, crosses, etc.-- they were/are not tolerated in Islamic countries.
The Russian military in Chechnya boldly displays the Christian cross.
People like you, OKCSubmariner, are one day going to realize that the interests of this country often run counter to Christianity, and that appears to be happening by the day. You can slip, slide, or snooze your way into Hell. Repent and become a true Christian, and support your Christian brothers in Russia, Serbia, and everywhere your country fights on behalf of the damnable infidel Islamics.
People like you, OKCSubmariner, are one day going to realize that the interests of this country often run counter to Christianity...
You are jumping to conclusions. His posts over the last month indicate clearly that he realizes that fact IN SPADES.
You seem to think he has drawn conclusions he actually hasn't drawn. I know he would appreciate your reading the post again and challenging any FACTS you think he has wrong. It would help the rest of us as well.
I am very much against the policies of the Clinton/Gore administration that deminish Christians and promote Islamic terrorists. Please refer to my recent article posted on the FR on October 19,2000 "Gore and Clinton and Some of Their Associates Linked to Terrorist Groups."
I admire and pray for any Russian soldier or sailor who is a true Christian and pays a price for his faith and belief. There are many true Christians in the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches. Unfortunately, the Soviet Union persecuted and tried to infiltrate the Russian Orthodox church making it even harder on the true Christians.
The cross is not only a symbol of the crucifixtion of Jesus Christ, it is a symbol of faith, dedication and willingness to bear a burden and pay a price for the truth and for God's word and His son, Jesus.
I agree with your assessment of the direction some of the political leaders of our country have taken against Christians. Some of our political leaders have shown a greater interest in courting Islamic terrorists rather than protecting their own Christian countrymen and upholding Christian beliefs and values.
But there are still Christian soldiers and sailors ( I am one) in this country who are trying to educate and better inform the people and peacefully change our corrupt political leadership and replace them with more Christians.
Thanks for your willingness to discuss these issues.
Is "Islamics" an acceptable term?)
I note the smile, but for those who might not know, "Islam" translates roughly as "submission to God", while "Muslim" ("Moslem") is "one who submits—has submitted—to God".
My Arabic is less than rudimentary, and I am eager to be corrected on any fine point, though I did have one quick course and have some minor experience with grammatically related languages and with languages in which there is an Arabic element (Swahili). I also had the privilege of sitting in front of Ernest Dawn at 8:00 AM sharp for some years as a graduate student, as well as of his no-nonsense seminars and tutorials.
I remember as yesterday the first question he asked me—out of the blue—in one of the latter—"Were the Mutazila antinomians?"
"Islamicist", of course, denotes those who study Islam and its adherents, as well as their culture and history.
"Mohammedan"—a useful term—has for some strange reason lost currency recently in English.
You are particularly cogent, in my humble opinion, in all you say in #63, LSJohn.
Regards to all. S&W R.I.P.
This was just posted today 10/31/2000 on another thread!
If you needed any proof that this was hostile waters and a hotbed for Terrorism, here it is. Last week it was revealed that President Saleh didn't "defeat" the terrorists as had been hinted at. What he did was "incorporate" them. That is, he appeased the members of Islamic Jihad by INSTALLING them into his government in various posts. It was revealed last week that it was from these offices that false identification was issued to those who attacked the USS Cole.
General Zinni said that we gave "force protection...responsiblity" for our ships in the Yemeni harbor to the government of Yemen.
Given the laughter of the civilian population at the death of our sailors and the crippling of our ship, it's obvious that someone was extremely NAIVE about trusting the Yemeni government. Probably not naive, more like criminally negligent.
1 Posted on 10/31/2000 11:40:13 PST by xzins [
This was just posted today 10/31/2000 on another thread!
If you needed any proof that this was hostile waters and a hotbed for Terrorism, here it is. Last week it was revealed that President Saleh didn't "defeat" the terrorists as had been hinted at. What he did was "incorporate" them. That is, he appeased the members of Islamic Jihad by INSTALLING them into his government in various posts. It was revealed last week that it was from these offices that false identification was issued to those who attacked the USS Cole.
General Zinni said that we gave "force protection...responsiblity" for our ships in the Yemeni harbor to the government of Yemen.
Given the laughter of the civilian population at the death of our sailors and the crippling of our ship, it's obvious that someone was extremely NAIVE about trusting the Yemeni government. Probably not naive, more like criminally negligent.
1 Posted on 10/31/2000 11:40:13 PST by xzins [
"it's obvious that someone was extremely NAIVE about trusting the Yemeni government. Probably not naive, more like criminally negligent...."
It's a pity we don't have a specifically indifferent singular or (vel) plural, partitive or(vel) distributive "someone" in English, though a simple, plural "some" often does the trick.
Likely "some" were negligent, criminally or otherwise.
But one must also keep open the possibility of "others" being criminal in other ways.
One theme I have repeated often enough over the last four decades is apparently too abstractly phrased for many easily to grasp, that is—that, where subversion and penetration succeed in one degree, they always encourage incompetence among the subverted and penetrated in other degrees, both as cover for themselves, when and if caught or under suspicion, and also as just another subversive device.
Ames is a case in point.
Regards to all.
And, almost forgot—S&W R.I.P.
Gee... Inside information held by the corporate entity in control of an unfriendly foreign port makes its way to enemies of the United States of America and results in the sinking of a US Navy vessel.
Can you say "Panama Canal?" I thought that you could.
Trust we are not relying on strictly civilian operations for container intelligence, reconoissance, and, if the need arises, tactics—small group and large, technological and human. Nicely watertight branch operations have potential attractiveness, in theory at least.
One might even—dreamily optative—think in terms of active and passive.
No doubt none of this is properly any of my business, but then again, if I've considered it, why hasn't it been done yesterday?
Best regards. S&W R.I.P.
I posted this on the other Cole thread running. This article was reported at 2:47 this afternoon.
In the midst of all the reports that the USS Cole would not use the Suez Canal, here is a report that was reported at 2:47 pm on ABC.com
Oct. 31 —
U.S. and Egyptian officials are reviewing security arrangements for the Suez Canal, which hasn’t been used by American ships since the attack on the USS Cole.
The Navy wants to bring the Cole home through the canal.
But if the U.S. military deems the canal unsafe, the crippled Cole will have to get home via the southern tip of Africa, which would stretch the journey from two weeks to three. The Suez Canal, owned by Egypt, connects the Red Sea and Mediterranean Sea.
In an apparent suicide bombing on Oct. 12, 17 sailors on the Cole were killed and 39 injured. The Cole was the last U.S. military ship to cross the Suez Canal on its way to Yemen last October, said Col. Brian Hoey, a spokesman for the U.S. Central Command.
“I will confirm that the USS Cole was the last ship to transit the Suez,” Hoey said.
U.S. military forces have been on heightened alert throughout the Middle East and other regions after the surprise attack on the Cole. U.S. ships have also been banned from putting into any port in the Gulf.
“The Egyptian government takes canal security very seriously and has an excellent record of security and safety for ships that utilize this vital waterway,” Hoey said. “We are working very closely with the the Egyptian government to ensure ongoing security arrangements are appropriate,” he said.
The Cole was towed to deeper water Sunday where it is being loaded on the Blue Marlin, a 700-foot-long Norwegian salvage ship.
Aden Empties Out
Many U.S. military and State Department personnel left Aden Monday, and U.S. Ambassador Barbara Bodine was expected to return to Yemen’s capital of San’a. Last week, FBI investigators moved to a Navy ship offshore and are visiting Aden only as needed.
Bodine said Sunday that the Cole’s departure did not mean the probe into the bombing has ended.
“This will be the second phase. ... It will not be short. It will not be easy,” she said.
U.S. Wants Cooperation
President Clinton on Monday appealed to Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh for direct access to witnesses, suspects and evidence, saying the two countries should have “a genuine, joint investigation.”
Yemeni officials confirmed the questioning of sources and detainees was being conducted by Yemenis with no FBI agents present.
Transcripts of the interrogations are sent to U.S. investigators who pose follow-up questions for Yemenis, the officials said.
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said Monday that Yemen “had to cooperate more.”
U.S. investigators said last week that they were frustrated by Yemeni investigators not giving them access to witnesses and suspects.
ABCNEWS’ John Miller and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Ok. Its time to take away the "?" in this headline. Weeks of searching have proven it to me.It is my opinion that the governement of Yemen and YEMINVEST and Yemen Holding are in and of themselves terrorists. The owner of the pharmaceutical plant that Clinton bombed was owned by a certain Salah Idris.Guess who he played footsie with? The Mahfouz Sheihks.Guess who reached a settelement agreement with the United States of America in the BCCI banking scandal?Mafouz. So who does the United States of America send its beautiful young sailors to, you guessed it Mahhfouz! A new article must be written. Its title should be "USS Cole:American Government and Aden Port Operators Collaborate With Islamic Terrorists!"
Keeping in mind how Al-Amoudi gives $$$$ to terrorists,please read
http://allafrica.com/stories/199710240056.html
What was the arrangement/cooperation bewtween Mahfouz and Idris? Did Mahfouz invest in his aspirin factory or did Mahfouz help Idris when Idris sued the US or what was the connection-how were they "playing footsies" as you put it.
I hope we can learn even more on how Vernon Jordan and ME terrorists (Pakistanis,et al)at BCCI and the American Muslim Council are connected to Mahfouz, Al-Amoudi, Bin Laden,Clinton,Gore, Hillary, etc.
Thanks for all your hard work and contributuions.
bttt
MORE REASONS WHY GORE/CLINTON MUST BE IMPEACHED AND REMOVED FROM OFFICE BEFORE JANUARY 2001.
My article "Gore and Clinton and Some of Their Associates Linked to Terrorist Groups?"(10/19/2000) discusses Al-Amoudi and the American Muslim Council and their ties to questionable campaign contributions to CLinton/Gore and Arab terrorists. And my article on this thread about the USS COle showed that the Mahfouz-AL-AMOUDI company runs the port of Aden in Yemen where the Cole was bombed. Well, here is even more substantiation that Clinton(Bill&Hillary) are in bed with terrorists, including Al-Amoudi:
On Tuesday, the New York Daily News quoted the American Muslim Council official (Al-Amoudi)saying, "We are all supporters of Hamas. ... I am also a supporter of Hezbollah."
Another devastating revelation: ALAMOUDI WAS DISCOVERED TO BEOE ON THE CLINTON STATE DEPATEMENT PAYROLL.
Hezbollah is believed to be responsible for the 1983 bomb attack on a U.S. military barracks in Beirut, taking the lives of 241 Marines.
The three paragraphs above were excerpted from the following article posted by CHIEF negotiator (sent to me by aristedes):
Lazio Hammers Hillary with NewsMax Scoop, Wins 5-Point Lead
Source: NewsMax.com
Published: Wednesday November 1, 2000; 4:20 PM ET
Author: Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff
This REALLY makes one wonder about the Clinton coverup/involvement of arab terrorists in the bombing of USS Cole and the Murrah building in OKC.
Has the Clinton arrangement with Arab terrorsits allowed them to set up terrorist cells within the US from which to launch terrorist attacks against out people. The answer is YES in my opinion and we may have trouble with terrorist attacks in the US after the election no matter who wins.
Clinton and Gore should be impeached removed from office before January to protect US lives and to protect US national security.
Gore committed treason and a high crime when he made his secret deal with the Russians to transfer nukes to Iran and keep it from Congress.
Yesterday, it was revealed by Gertz in his book China Threat that Gary Semore of the National Security Council(NSC) made a proposal to give China US missile secrets and technology to get them to join some international non-poliferation committee. Gore and Clinton sit on the NSC and would have approved the deal. Even if the deal with China was not consumated, the fact they tried is outrageous.
How many more of these deals have been made or proposed and are in the works. And China and Russia never keep their end of their deals anyway and the US keeps getting ripped off. Remember, Clinton and Gore know this about Russian and China behavior and they make the deals on purpose anyway.
They must be removed from office immediately. Please pass along to all those who would be interested.
2nd day home with the flu bump
Bold off
OK...Dr. Mom to the rescue!!! Mega-dose on garlic pills and eat lots of raw onions with salt.
I'd like your opinion on a thread I just put up...'Couple, 2 girls found dead in Herndon.' The article says that the dead guy worked for the DoD, mostly Pentagon.
When the news of it first ran,in the WEE hours of today, it was reported that there was no attempts for resucitation due to the condition of the bodies. IOW...they were burnt to a crisp. But yet the news says the fire was put out in 10-20 minutes.(that's from the time it was discovered by neighbors to time firemen put it out.)
BTW...it's also reported that the 4 were shot, probably before the fire.
We were right then!
We are right now!
Will the Bush/Congressional Resolution on War go after William and Hillary and destroy them?
A BettyJo BUMP!!
Thanks Ann Archy!
The two of us are really a couple of non-techers, arnt we?
You with your web Tv and me with my ditzy non-puter head!
If we ever got it together and learned bout this stuff, we could be dangerous!
Memo to Betty Jo
From Betty Jo
Re: Post 72
Please read the date at the top of the page!
How did you know?
Are you CIA?
Are you psychic?
Are you an Ed Dames remote viewer?
Answer:
No, Betty Jo, I just freeped and googled!
I didnt have tax dolllars.
I didnt have credentials.
I had nothing but freedom!
Freedom of the web!
Freedom of the Press!
Freedom of Speech!
Freedom of Free Republic.com!
Defend the homeland!
Please read this thread!
Pay attention to the dates!
Some are a year old!
Read posts 72,87,91,95,96,102,through 106
Here is an easy to understand handle on Alamoudi-Mahfouz-Bin Laden funding,$$$$ to terrorist thread at an early stage!
Yemen probably isn't immune from "Infinite Justice"
Bump!
Prophetic, I am amazed!
109 Posted on 10/12/2001 23:06:13 PDT by Betty Jo
110 Posted on 10/13/2001 01:01:36 PDT by backhoe
111 Posted on 10/13/2001 11:34:58 PDT by Travis McGee
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
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