Here are links to their page with contact information. These people are usualy pretty fired up, they probably have already made some calls.
American Legion
Veterans of Foreign Wars
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On Hardball...even Matthews is outraged about the military ballots not counting...he has done one and a half hours on it now.. Pat Caddell , said "If Gore is behind this AND I BELIEVE HE IS...then its all over for him"... and Pat is a Dem pollster. Earlier...Congressman Steve Bouyer said he is heading to Florida at 7 tomorrow morning to head up an investigation into this whole matter. The Dems are spinning like crazy, backpeddling and trying to smooth this over,but it is not working.... Now even Norah O'Donnell, usually very liberal is saying "the numbers of ballots thrown out is enormous and outrageous"....The tide is turning I believe...
MOST notable is "Where is Gore today on this???".....is he behind the scenes trying to convince democrats that he has to keep fighting,,,,is there some dems that are telling him its all over..that the extent of the fraud is coming to the surface and they need to quit NOW before it all comes out. My God, even Congresmman Alcee Hastings is saying this military thing is not right. Like I said, I think the fact that Gore has not made an appearance today to rebutt the charges made by Bush about fraud.....speaks volumes. Normally he can't wait to get in front of the camera. And something worth noting that speaks volumes also,,,TWICE today Begala has said this military thing is not right, the votes should count. What is going on???
It's worrisome that the Dems are saying the military votes should count even if the postmarks are not what they should be. High likelihood that the postmarks aren't what they should be because envelopes have been replaced illegally with ballots for Gore. Be VERY careful what you wish for here.
I heard this and was stunned. The tide does appear to be turning as long as we keep the pressure on!
We have been told that Gorby is behind the scenes managing every little detail of the events of the last 10 days, haven't we?
BTTT
There have been many reports that mail sent directly from Navy ships at sea or overseas, normally has no postmark. This might be the reason for this, not sure. We will see soon.
High likelihood that the postmarks aren't what they should be because envelopes have been replaced illegally with ballots for Gore.
I don't think so. These are clearly military ballots which didn't get the APO or FPO postmark. Gore is clever, but he's not clever enough to reject his own fraudulent ballots in the hopes that we would to get them counted.
hmm...well, I don't think that having a postmark on the envelope would make a difference if they were going to open the envelopes and forge signatures on ballots...they could do that and still run them through a postal machine...this IS the fed gov after all, and they do have access to postal machines. Its very easy to backdate them, I can do it to the one I have at work. I really think this military thing is going to be the turning point...congress is going down there to investigate now. People take VERY seriously the right of people who defend us to vote. This is a HUGE black eye on the dems. Even the NY Times had a front page story this morning on how the dems were BRAGGING that they circulated that letter instructing the counters how to throw out the military votes. I think Gore is floundering now or he would be out in force saying that Bush is terrible for accusing them of this and other fraud. Or he would have sent out the henchman Daley...but nothing is heard from any of them. I think they know the jig is almost up.
Disagree. They got caught with their pants down, that is all.
Let's hope the outrage lasts, but...
I recall more than one commentator mouthing these words: "he'll have to resign if the stories of an intern in the White House are true"
Cynical? Yep, but hopeful, all the same.
Let's go BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've never been able to figure out Cadell. He's a Democratic strategist and seems to almost always support the Republican position.
"TWICE today Begala has said ..."
What the heck does it matter what Begala says? This guy is among the absolute worst Clinton butt boys and belongs in jail! He has no credibility and we should not lend him any by mentioning anything he says.
Please don't take this as a personal attack, it's not. It is an attack on these democrap criminals who deserve to do hard time.
Yup, the focus groups are done, the polls have been taken, and the results are in. This is a BIG TIME loser issue, enough for people to say enough is enough, algore WILL do ANYTHING TO WIN.
Hence the spin is starting. By tommorow, the spin will be some how this is Bush's fault, or the republicans are making it a partisan issue, or they are challeging the rat's patriotism, and GW didn't server in Nam but algore did, ANYTHING, to change the subject.
Yes, it was a gigantic mistake, a fatal one, for felons to be able to vote and for the defenders of our freedom to be denied. Gore will not recover from this.
HELP IS ON THE WAY!
I agree with you on this. Too easy to spin that the overseas votes should count, but the PB hand counts should not??? I can hear it coming.
Pat Caddell might be an old-fashioned Blue Dog.
Amazingly enough, the good guys seem to have the initiative.
Let's keep the heat on.
"If Gore is behind this..."
IF, waddya mean, IF?!! Gore campaigned as a micro manager. The guy (Herron) that wrote the memo instructing the dems on how to challenege the military votes is one of Gore's attorneys on the scene in Florida. This, "IF" is nothing but pure spin and BS---of course, Al did it.
You are correct to worry. These people would do anything to get that sleezeball elected. It would be best if we said, "No, sorry, the damage is done. You have disenfranchized our military. You don't see the poor military whining like those mental midgets in Palm Beach, do you? No, thanks, we won't open, but you LOSE , Al. Now go crawl back into some hole, you lying, cheating, fraudulent..."
Sorry, I got carried away. You get the point.
You have the same fear I do. What if its a trick! Some body tell me I am wrong.
Indeed !!! Beware of the obvious !. This almost looks like a setup.
Let's keep the heat on.
Let's hope they do. Let's hit them over the head with this for days. Remind people, this is the REAL algore, this and the politics of personal destruction is what we will have for another four years.
But this is JUST NOT in Florida, I believe it is nation wide.
Has demon possessed billy daley been out after the Bush Camp came forward with ALLLLLLLLL their fraud evidence?
Military mail isn't always post marked, these ballots are going from one Gov. Dept. to another, like sending a memo from one office on the second floor to one on the first, do ya mail it using a stamp?
its already started...Begala is saying just that "Gore is the one who served in the military, not Bush"....and also Begala is saying "if you care about the military voting, you should have a revote in the entire state, and certainly the Palm Beach voters"...seems the talking points are out there for the hacks,,,,but STILL no big guns out there...no christopher, Daley, or Gore....something is afoot. Lieberman is scheduled for all the talk shows in the morning...looks like he is going to have to take the heat.
"It's worrisome that the Dems are saying the military votes should count even if the postmarks are not what they should be. High likelihood that the postmarks aren't what they should be because envelopes have been replaced illegally with ballots for Gore. Be VERY careful what you wish for here."
Wasn't the problem simply a lack of standard dated postmarks on many of the envelopes, especially those posted from ships at sea? And aren't the Florida absentee ballots (at least potentially) signed and dated by the voter? All it would take would be backtracking a single service member/absentee gore vote, and it being disavowed under oath by the service member involved and that house of cards would begin to implode with disastrous results. All the evidence so far seems to indicate that the military absentee votes are GWB's best friend in this nightmare.
I turned the NBC network news on tonight by mistake--I never watch Network News of any kind. Their spin was amazing, commenting on how Bush's people have cranked up the rhetoric today, saying the hand vote counts are useless. They made a minor reference to the military ballots being thrown out. The media continues to spin outrageously for those unfortunates who get their information from the network news.
The point is that if even pond scum like Begala is back peddling then this event is a PR disaster for the rats. Ordinarily he will spin any type of rat outrage. For him to tuen tail and run away tells us this is a disaster for the rats.
The legitimate mailpieces SHOULD NOT BE POSTMARKED.
They are carried free of postage. They are PERMIT mail.
This type of mail is NEVER NORMALLY POSTMARKED.
If you want to find fraudulent pieces, look at the ones which WERE postmarked.
The rules for all of this are in the USPS Domestic Mail Manual.
You can get to it on the net at www.usps.com .
Then, once there, go to POSTAL EXPLORER
Look around over on the right side. YOu will see DMM. It has a search box. Search for ABSENTEE
Go to the reference it shows you.
Read it carefully. THIS IS THE LAW!!!! It is THE LAW OF THE UNITED STATES - if Florida differs they will have to somehow change things so that the US works for FLA.
wish to hell that i had said that...instead of you!
Evidently they have an APO or FPO mark... but the Dems are arguing about that not being 'good enough' because APO and FPO marks do not indicate WHERE the ballot envelopes were marked, as would a normal postmark. When I heard this this morning the 'missing postmark' made more sense- it wasn't missing, it was just not a regular postmark! The Dems want people to think that there is no mark at all.
Yep, looks like this story has some legs. Having been on a Navy ship, I know full well how mail works and it's not like your corner Post Office. One Postal Clerk for a large crew, and not every piece gets posted. Especially when you get a sudden, unplanned opportunity to offload mail - more important to send mail than worry whether or not its got a postmark on it.
And, don't forget, I believe all that FL law requires is either a postmark or a signed, dated ballot. To throw out the ballot, before opening it, based on no postmark is simply contrary to FL law.
Don't worry. You didn't get carried away. In my oninion, there is no way anyone can be too worried about fraud in this election.
SUGGESTION; I think we should start emailing algorbachov's web sites telling him to give it up!
I just e-mailed MSNBC. I really had to compliment Pat Caddell for his work the last couple of weeks.
We have to keep reminding the public that the palm beach ballots were counted twice and algore won't count the military ballots at all!
Full agreement with you on this. This is getting wierd....
The libs agreeing that "it is not right" stinks to high heaven. IMHO, once they have suckered the Pubbies into buying this line, they're going to spring the trap ... well then, why don't these XX thousand of ballots also count?
its already started...Begala is saying just that "Gore is the one who served in the military, not Bush"....
Wow, that was fast, the talking points fax machine must have been working overtime tonight.
Gore will probably give in on the military vote. Then they will say something like;in the spirit of compromise, we have allowed these questionable ballots, therefore we deserve the same consideration in the disputed counties yada, yada, yada, lie, spin, lie, spin...........
Peach said, "High likelihood that the postmarks aren't what they should be because envelopes have been replaced illegally with ballots for Gore." "I don't think so. These are clearly military ballots which didn't get the APO or FPO postmark. Gore is clever, but he's not clever enough to reject his own fraudulent ballots in the hopes that we would to get them counted." These ballots are signed. The signitures better match now.
Lieberman is scheduled for all the talk shows in the morning...
G-d, please don't tell me I'm going to have to listen to that whiney, nasaly drone all morning. I'd rather have dental surgery without benefit of drugs. fsf
Regarding Hardball, I missed the answer to the panelists of Chris Matthews' final question, "Can Gore get the needed votes to win?" Can someone fill me in, please?
Consider this response to that Dem slant:
"So you Democrats want Palm Beach felon's illegal ballots to be counted 3 times over, but you Democrats don't want our fine, upstanding, brave, loyal Military personnel to be counted even once?"
Get Bush to Come on Television with a Female Who Sent in An Absentee Military Ballot!
He introduces her and lets her talk about bulk mail delays, delays from high up, and now they refuse to count her ballot...! Lead with her .... then a military family telling the truth about lost bulk mail ....
The truth will make you free ... of gore!
Well, let me tell you from my perspective as a retired Marine who has spent 1/4 of his career on foreign soil this has me outraged! Even in this election, retired or not, I had to file absentee (in NC) because I was out of county with my job supporting Marines as a contractor. Incredible! March on, Freepers!
The legitimate mailpieces SHOULD NOT BE POSTMARKED. They are carried free of postage. They are PERMIT mail. This type of mail is NEVER NORMALLY POSTMARKED.
Actually, I have piles of these free postage letters, and they all bear APO or FPO postmarks. So NEVER is not the proper word here. The dems want people to believe there are no marks at all but I think these ballot envelopes have APO FPO marks, at least that's the impression I got from a Republican (a governor?) on Fox this morning.
Two questions:
1. Where are the American Legion, VFW, etc. on this?
2. How many "overseas absentee ballots" were thrown out in 1996???
I think you are OK.
You see, the Dems don't want to wind up being punished electorally for Gore's behavior. They are fearful for their political lives.
I agree, that is ALL they have to do and it is definitely over.
ROTFLMAO! You are funny. Can you imagine listening to Gore and him for 4 years?
I saw that. I have been watching Cadell with interest these past few days. He does seem like their is some honor left in the Democratic Party. He's a Democratic pollster, not without spin. However, he seems to have come to a line he will not cross. He nailed Nora O'Donnell by saying it is in our best interest to count the Military Vote. He also pointed out that MSNBC had an interview 2 hours earlier with someone who saw ballot mishandling (this was after MSNBC did a report of how hard it would be to tamper with a ballot).
Gore does seem to be between a rock & a hard place. If they don't allow the vote, he is finished with the military. If he does allow the vote, Bush's number might go up so much higher that he's cooked. I am sure he will slink out of this like any other snake, but it will be interesting.
You have the same fear I do. What if its a trick! Some body tell me I am wrong.
OK. You're wrong. :) The Democrats are the ones that challenged them in the first place. They are mostly military ballots. If they had really wanted them to be in they wouldn't have challenged them. The Republicans certainly weren't going to. Let's not get paranoid. Remember all the worry about how they were going to fake the foreign ballots that was expressed here before they were counted? It didn't happen either did it?
I used to be the postal officer on a Navy destroyer back in the 80's (I was also the Navigator). I can tell you from experience that much if not most of the mail that left our ship didn't have a postmark. We had one overworked postal clerk and he was the only person authorized (by regulation) to cancel postage. He also worked grueling hours on UNREP (refueling) details, repair parties, and a host of other "collateral duties." When a helo came to pick up mail we often had little notice and the main priority was to get the mailbags up to the flight deck -- whether or not he'd had time to postmark the lousy letters. Give me a break!
To deny our Sailors the right to have their ballots counted for lack of a postmark is more than tragic, it's downright Clitonesque!
If the military votes are for Gore, they're for Gore. They should count, period. Just like the winner of the Electoral College is the winner of the Presidency, period. The Constitution protects all of us, not on a selective basis.
Oops...'scuse me, I meant to say, "I think you are right." (/embarassment)
I hope y'all are right about the military ballots and the postmarks. When I hear which Dems are agreeing that all the military ballots should be counted, regardless of "problems", I sense trouble. It's usually so clear cut who the good guys are!
As someone who served 25 years in the Army National Guard of three states and 7 years in the Army Reserve, I take issue with that horse's ass, Begala! I wonder if he served in anything except Clinton's backside!
Let not your heart be troubled. Remember the first rule of salesmenship: "Talk is cheap." Of course the dems are going to say the military votes should be counted now that...they haven't been counted.
That's right, I think too many of us are getting into that rut of saying "They are going to do this because they know that we know what they are doing and because they know we know what they are going to do..."
Isn't Daley getting married today? In CHICAGO?
Will Lieberman be "standing in" for Al Gore on the AM talks?
Understand Al and many of the staff "slept late" today. Seems the Gores were invited guests of the Daley family on Friday evening. The occasion, Rehearsal Dinner for Daley wedding.
Now this would be a real stretch, but could that "special ocasion" be the reason for the weekend "hold" on Florida results ? Anyone seen Daley on the tube today? Just thinking out loud.....
Ex destroyer sailor's take on the military vote. This is the typical way mail is sent off a destroyer. A helicopter is inbound, 15 mins til arrival, and they send word to the ship that they can accept mail (weight restrictions due to fuel and lenght of return flight). A five minute warning is issued over the ships address system. a hundred or more sailors deluge the four by six foot closet that is called the ships post office. The postal clerk takes the mail throws it all in the mail bag and seals it up and sends it to the flight deck. He regularily would not postmark these letters just to get them off the ship. On my first ship we didn't have a helo, so our mail was dependent on the luck of a nearby supply ship sending a helo over with supplies and the willingness/ability to take mail back with them. It could take a week or two before mail service occurred again. Al Gore, for all the midwatches I stood, for the christmas eve I spent sleeping on a barroom floor in Turkey (due to inclement weather halting small boat service back to my ship)using a tennis shoe for a pillow, and for my shipmate who lost his leg to a staph infection from UDT training injury, You sir can kiss my clymer with both lips.
Regarding Hardball, what were the panelist's answers to Chris Matthews' question whether or not Gore could get enough votes to win, please? I missed it. Thanks.
Re "Let not your heart be troubled". When I see President Elect Bush put his hand on the bible and swear to uphold the dignity and honor of the office, etc., my heart will mend. Hopefully this will all be over soon and the healing can begin.
I've never been able to figure out Cadell. He's a Democratic strategist and seems to almost always support the Republican position.
He's a Democrat pollster.
He last worked in government for Jimmy Carter. The Democrat Party is 180 degrees from where it was under Jimmy Carter. Carter was an inept president, but a pristeen human being.
Gore is as scummy as Clinton, and Caddell knows it.
I've never been able to figure out Cadell. He's a Democratic strategist and seems to almost always support the Republican position.
When you are that ugly it's hard not to be truthful. Really though, Cadell is extremely smart and sees through a lot of the C**p and has quite a blue collar approach to politics.
Begala is the designee for floating trial balloons--see what the public will buy.
Lieberman is Mr. Earnest and Righteous--and a Minority, so the whores and scoundrels of the media, even if they really are disgusted, will go gently with him...can't be seen beating up on a Jew after all.
Besides, they haven't changed their allegiances--they will hold their noses, if necessary, and drool the party line as soon as they are told what it is.
Lieberman for the morning shows????? Oh, goody....this should be fun....poor guy, twisting in the wind....he has to be the wimpiest of all.....they must think people will believe him because of that....
There are some times when I agree with Mr. Cadell. this is one...
But I must say I am amazed at how this is playing....many people are really pissed off, and it appears real
ALL GOP Legislators email --one click
Dear Republican member of the Florida legislature:
My name is ____ and I live in ____.
I am writing to you as a concerned fellow American. Currently, it seems that Democrat judges in your Florida courts are determined to obstruct the will of the people of Florida by illegitimately awarding Florida's electors to Vice President Al Gore.
Secretary of State Katherine Harris followed Florida law by imposing a vote certification deadline on Florida's counties. Democrat judges, by judicial fiat, ignored and wrongly interpreted the law as passed by the Florida legislature. Now heavily Democrat counties are counting votes past the legal deadline thanks to a green light granted to them by Democrat judges.
You, however, can help overturn the illegal rulings of these partisan Democrat judges. The Constitution specifically provides that if doubt exists as to a state's representation in the Electoral College, a state legislature has the discretion to appoint electors.
"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." U.S. Constitution, Article II, sec. 1 [2].
The U.S. Code also provides that "Whenever any State has held an election for the purpose of choosing electors, and has failed to make a choice on the day prescribed by law, the electors may be appointed on a subsequent day in such a manner as the legislature of such State may direct." U.S. Code, Title 3, section 2.
Republicans control both the Florida assembly, 77-43, and the state senate, 25-15. The Florida legislature, therefore, has the power to legislatively overrule any outcome wrought by the decisions of partisan Democrat judges.
You can argue that when the executive branch and courts disagree, or when there are two different vote counts, the legislature makes the final decision. You could also argue that it is normal and proper for the legislature to overrule a court decision. This is done all the time. Frequently when a court makes an incorrect ruling on a statute, the legislature will pass a law during its next session to make its intentions more clear, or legislatively overrule the court's interpretation of the statute. If Florida's courts produce an illegitimate victory for Al Gore, the Florida legislature should appoint new electors, effectively overruling the erring courts.
Democrats, of course, would kick and scream, saying the GOP is defying the law. But it is the Democrat judges who are defying the law as statutorily intended by the Florida legislature. The legislature would just be putting the judges back on track.
Governor George Bush has won Florida, as decided by not one but two vote counts. I urge you not to let Democrat judges steal the election away from him. America needs you.
Yours truly,
--------------------------------------------------
Sent to:
Senator Charlie Bronson
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Senator Ginny Brown-Waite
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Speaker of the House
thrasher.john@leg.state.fl.us
Rep. Allen Trovillion
trovillion.allen@leg.state.fl.us
Rep. James "Jim" F. Tullis
tullis.jim@leg.state.fl.us
Rep. J. Alex Villalobos
villalobos.alex@leg.state.fl.us
Rep. Rob Wallace
wallace.rob@leg.state.fl.us
Rep. Leslie Waters
waters.leslie@leg.state.fl.us
Rep. Stephen R. Wise
wise.stephen@leg.state.fl.us
END OF LETTER
LIST OF FLORIDA REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE E-MAIL ADDRESSES:
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We have been told that Gorby is behind the scenes managing every little detail of the events of the last 10 days, haven't we?
Maybe Bubba's doing the managing while Gore remains under heavy sedation.
I heard on the radio an hour or two ago that Gore is not taking the trip he intended to take (tomorrow?) to Tennessee, but is instead staying in Washington. I wonder what's up.
Big Bump to you Stargate...from another retired Marine in N.C.
Semper Fi
How many were thrown out in previous presidential elections? I don't believe I've heard any of the networks say.
If Begalla supports it, they're Gore votes
There is another trial balloon being floated to create a blue ribbon panel consisting on Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter and the likes to decide the election. That needs to be shot down instantly, if not sooner!!!
Maybe The Dem-wits have decided to throw Gore to the wolves rather than go down with a sinking ship.
""What the heck does it matter what Begala says? This guy is among the absolute worst Clinton butt boys and belongs in jail! He has no credibility and we should not lend him any by mentioning anything he says.""............Can you imagine what it would be like to be one of his poor kids?! Or maybe they are just like him? Sad either way!!
The military absentee ballot issue has really fired up Republican legislators. This gives the FLA legislators and Congress cover to DO WHAT THEY MUST DO
BUMP.
I'm cynical,too. I think it's just a trap to make the Republicans feel good and relax for a day (thinking it's all over for Gore). Meanwhile, the Dems will lay low until 'Lo and Behold!' the FLSC will rule on Monday to keep counting until 931 Gore votes are found. Dems will change all the focus to 'getting their accurate count so all the peoples votes are counted' and all this military stuff will be forgotten. As soon as they get to 931, Gore declares himself victor and it's all over. The nation will be too sick of the whole thing to tolerate any lawsuits by Bush over the fraud or the military thing and just accept Gore. Mark my words! These people (Dems) are too evil and cunning to be throwing in the towel before their day in LIBERAL court!
Don't worry, Peach, the postmarks are not legally required, if there are other indices, such as date and signature of when it was sent. This specifically applies to the military ballots. The Federal Government even makes generic absentee ballots available for use in any stateside election. No postage is required for absentee ballots, therefore there's often no postmark.
What you are hearing is the sound of algore the tree, falling.
Hardball is on now...9:21 CST. Is this live or a rerun of earlier program?
Gergen is saying that the way the recount is going on is reprehensible and the Republicans have a growing case. Says Dem judges are prejudiced.
I don't think they're that slick.
It's more like they're boys are doing something contemotible and being caught. So the Dems want to save a micron of honor are trying to rectify the fiasco.
Turn it around. It's hard to argue that the PB votes should count and the military votes shouldn't. All the military votes have their name on it so voter intent is easy to determine.
Congratulations to all the freepers who were on this like white on rice last night and disseminated this information about the outrageous behavior of the democrats rapidly and thouroughly.
Screw Carville, WE ARE THE WAR ROOM!
The democratic party as currently constituted is too far to the left to win national elections without fraud. The first people to know this, in intimate detail, are dem strategists, especially pollsters who aren't mere shills but able to look at real data and think.
Some of them probably want the party to admit this to itself, and move its ideological positions enough to again become competitive at the national level. True believer commies would rather give up democracy, or the country, than budge farther left from their current position.
I don't know if that explains this one fellow, because I frankly don't know anything about him. But the Dems are near to *needing* a split in strategic terms, and if they lose this fight, because they fought on ground too far left, some will try to drag the party closer to the center. With what success, remains to be seen. Incidentally, Nader is waiting to invite in the cast-off commies if they lose...
Personal military mail will normally be postmarked by a postal clerk if one is onboard. Ballots will be mailed enmass in a mail sack. No post mark as they would not have been accepted if they were late. As military maildrops are part of the US Postal Service and they obey postal laws the fact that they were in the bag is all that is necessary for them to be postmarked as required. Election officials know this. Their being thrown out was a deliberate illegal act.
Folks: So Big Al got caught. He will turn this event on its head. AlGore/LIEberman will announce on the Sunday news cycle that the rejection of overseas ballots is reprehensible. They will ask that ALL ballots be counted in order to reflect the "will of the people." Reclaiming the perceived moral high-ground, they will get the liberal activist court, the media and consequently the sheeple to go along with the handcounts of the Democtatic counties. The fix is in. The next time that I win at quarter slots, I'll turn in my bucket of winnings to the change person and exclaim, "I'm a Democrat, I'm entitled to a handcount...and keep counting and recounting until you reach a million dollars" PAX
I received an email from Judicial Watch...they are in Florida monitoring this mess.
Surely Cheney will be on some shows! He always comes off better than Lieberman. And Cheney has the "military" (SoD) experience!
WE ARE THE WAR ROOM!
KABOOM!!!! Don't forget to Duck, Gorons.
I think it is time to send email to all the Dems who want to keep their jobs.
Messing with the Military is unacceptable and their jobs are now on the line.
Hardball is LIVE for you -- it just finished here EDST. AT the very end of the show, Chris Matthews asked the panelists if Gore can get enough votes to win. Can you let me know what their answers were, please. Thanks!
The trial balloon for Gerald Ford and Jimmie Carter to oversee counting has already been suggested - by Al Hunt, on the Capitol Gang today.......
"If Clinton really had sex IN THE WHITE HOUSE with an intern half his age, it's all over".
Yeah, right. You have to have MORALITY in order for there to be moral OUTRAGE.
Re How many ballots were thrown out in previous elections. Now, there's a very good question and one the Bush camp should be looking into.
...APO and FPO marks do not indicate WHERE the ballot envelopes were marked, as would a normal postmark.
They most certainly don't. The whole point of using the APO/FPO system is to avoid the need to reveal the whereabouts of military personnel to outsiders. Sometimes this can be highly sensitive information; most of the time it's just plain vexatious, as individual duty assignments and locations change all the time.
This may just be another attempt to trade on the assumed ignorance of the great unwashed whom Algore hopes to rule.
Cadell hates Gore. It is really very simple.
See #66
I was all over this issue last night and this morning calling for our big gun generals, etc. to get out before the cameras. But I missed something big. It now sounds like Gore's going to have to backtrack fast and I wish Bush had gotten out front and done something like challenge Gore that both should stipulate that military votes should be counted. We could have claimed the high ground. Maybe we have it anyway, but I didn't think of that twist.
RE: Timber. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it still fall?
Oh no, not Joking Joe again. I get sick every time I see/hear this guy now. I believe the conscience of the Senate has lost his mind now but I do not feel sorry for him since he chose to join the Gorons of his own free will.
I see we're on the same wavelength in this regard.
I know longer believe ANYONE who says "if such and such is true it spells the end for the Dems..."
It WAS all true, and Gore got more of the popular vote than Bush did. Even though Bush IS the President-elect, I still can't get over that fact. After all the wickedness, the lying, the manipulation of sacrosanct institutions that are no longer, that a plurality of Americans would cast a vote that says "yep, we want MORE of this! Keep it coming!" is beyond my ability to comprehend, or even to forgive.
Who else but gore would be behind it?
Sport
Are there any bases in Broward or Dade counties? I ask this because a huge chunk of the absentee ballots that were thrown out are in those counties. ( maybe the votes from Israel we heard so much about?) Anyway, they should count JUST the military, not all the absentees.
The Gorons really outsmarted themselves here. How many overseas ballots were thrown out, 1,000? Given the way those ballots were going, that represented a Bush plurality of 200 or 300. And, for that, they administered a potentially crippling PR defeat to themselves. What can they have been thinking of?
...enough for people to say enough is enough, algore WILL do ANYTHING TO WIN.
Sorry, but "the people" felt that way BEFORE the election, and more of the voters at-large didn't care than did.
We are a sick, sick, decadent society, and we are riding for a rather heavy fall as a result.
I'll get back at you....how long is the show? Is it 2 hours?
Well, well, let's not get to excited now! We do remember, don't we, Sam Donaldson et al having Clinton resigning within two days after the Lewinski story broke? This is just another liberal "spin" machine working.
It may very well be that hundreds of Gore ballots got put into the overseas absentee ballot groups, cleverly rejected, and then, when the Republicans complain, they say, well, let's just put all of them in, and there you have it, we're outwitted.
Why, even Jesse Jackson was expressing outrage this afternoon about the military ballots, and then he came on with the clincher: "Let's include the holocaust victims of Palm Beach and the Haitians and minorities. Let's be inclusive instead of exclusive."
Believe we'd better not get suckered into a trap here.
I am from Tennessee. The reason that he is not coming is that he is afraid to. Rallies are already planned at the War Memorial in Nashville where he had once planned to celebrate his victory. Tennessee does not want him.
I was just watching CNN (waiting for the Capital Gang Food Fight Rebroadcast...which is late...they better not cancel it) and a Dim shill started whining about Sore Loserman 2000! ROTFLOL!
AT the very end of the show, Chris Matthews asked the panelists if Gore can get enough votes to win. Can you let me know what their answers were, please. Thanks!
Begala said, "Yes, plenty!" Caddell said, "Only if he steals them." John Fund's response was inaudible as Matthews was talking over him.
Begala is saying just that "Gore is the one who served in the military, not Bush"....
Excuse me! I was under the obviously mistaken impression that one had to be a military pilot to drive an F-102. The gorbot in a military flight suit would look as riduculous as Dukakis in the tank -- almost as silly as the photo of him pointing the M-16 at his forehead! GW put a lot more on the line when he lit the afterburner of that "lead sled" than gorbot did in his entire, illustrious, military career.
One other thing that bothers me about the thief who would be president. Why did he choose to enlist when he was fully qualified to enter the military as an officer? Could it be that officers have to lead men and he was not up to the task?
I see it totally different. The only reason that gore got 50% of the popular vote...is due to massive voter fraud...that you can count on...I believe Bush won by a landslide, you can bet he would have been 20% higher if it had not been for this massive voter fraud nationally.
And furthermore, in '96 clinton only won due to massive voter fraud.
Military absentees are the only ones with the Federal exemption to only have to be signed, not postmarked, by election day. Civilian foreign ballots have to have the postmark!!!!
What's going on?"
Seeing this military ballot fiasco resonating with the public bigtime, it's CYA time for the liberals.....THEIR political careers in jeopardy, you know.
I believe Pat Caddell said he would only get the votes through cheating (my paraphrase), Hastings said of course he would, Begala also said he would and I can't remember John Fund's words.
The military ballots have ALREADY BEEN REJECTED. It is too late for candidates by personal fiat to "allow" their inclusion now. Because these military ballots have been rejected, it will be MUCH easier to reject the PBC dimpled hanging Demo-chads.
You MIGHT be right about the voter fraud, but the fact is that even WITH fraud Bush should have won going away. He should have taken PA, WI, IL, IA, NM, OR and FL with no sweat. Gore should have been left with the northeast (minus NH) and CA, and maybe WA, and THAT'S ALL. Most of the election fraud was in CA anyway, and CA represents Gore's margin of PV victory.
I don't care how you slice it, Gore should never have come close to winning this thing after all we were put through by this administration.
You are EXACTLY right! They have been wounded and they cannot be healed.
I believe Gore is between a rock and a hard place. He cannot let the military vote be counted. He cannot stand the wrath that is gathering up at this moment from this act. Make no mistake it WAS with his approval.
What they forgot is that military people have families, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, on and on. These people are from all parties not just Republican.
Beside that, men and women from all walks of life and voting for both parties, have served in the military. They will know that from their own experience this is not just.
I believe that the spin this weekend was to be the HUGE win in the FSC. It hasn't been. It has been the trampling on the rights of military people who are off in God forsaken places and now have to deal with the fact that to Gore and the Democratic party they are non entities.
BTW, wasn't it Al Gore who refused to speak in front of the veterans this summer, the first presidential candidate who hasn't spoken to them?
By tomorrow, clinton will be back home to take over. all this has been is stall, stall, stall, until clinton is ready to yank the rug out. Be very wary. Steve Buyer is going to FLA tomorrow. It's time. It's dangerous. This might be the salvo heard 'round the world. It's time for the Commanders and Generals to cut off clinton's clearance, arrest him, and take our military OUT of his hands.
You know, I figured the Democrats are busy stealing votes as usual--. But I was MAD that the servicemen's ballots were stolen/discarded because some of the small countries they mail their votes from don't have decent postmarks.
This is the worst thing that Gore could do--and even if it's not HIS men, he'll get the blame for it.
Thank you very much! It's been a LOOOONG time since my husband was in the Navy. I couldn't remember how voting in the military works. Whew! I feel MUCH better!
How the hell come nobody is asking the most OBVIOUS QUESTION
Why are the men who have tp put their lives on the line VOTING OVERWHEMINGLY AGAINST GORE
This must be emphasized
What have they done in the past is the BIG question no one has asked! If in the past they have counted unpostmarked ballots they have to take these! Start Digging on this!
One chad over the line ...
"Twice today, Begala said this Military thing is not right". . .
An incongruous vision of Begala showing altrusitic concern for anything Military; and certainly, anyone.
Seems to me they want to 'spin' their cake and eat it too.
This is worse than ugly and so the Gore Lieutenants must lie and sound at least as offended and duly concerned as the Repubs are on this; God forbid, the public associate them with such a betrayal. . .
In the meantime, Gore will probably keep his face toward the 'light' and pray this one does not get beyond their control.
Gore got more of the popular vote than Bush did
How do we know how many popular votes Gore really got?
You should have SEEN St. Louis - well maybe you shouldn't have.
Begala saying stuff like this makes me believe somethings up - like the old saying "There's n____r in the woodpile". Something stinks here. Maybe Begala, the slippery little arrogant flying monkey knows there's a vote-fix count in they need to take attention off at present.
Misdirect, confuse and blurr the issues at hand.
In fact, I just figured out why he would say this! They need to bring out a confirmation of HOW MANY (1000?) and IF the absentee ballots would be allowed OFFICIALLY. Since they may have to concede to adding them later anyway, he's bating the GOP to commit to it now!!!!!!
He is slick. I still hate him though.
Concur. And that's much better!
Excellent points. Let's not forget that every poll taken of childen across the country pointed to a Bush landslide. They have never been wrong about this until this year.
The reason of course that children point the way is because they probably reflect the views of their parents.
I believe there has been massive fraud. Perhaps one day we will find out the truth.
Jen
That quote was not mine. My statement mirrored your. Thanks.
These absentee ballots can be used to great advantage -showing fraud for starters. As you said, their existence can be used to argue against including the handcounted ballots - without which algore loses. Just throwing them into the count is the last thing that should be done.
"I hope y'all are right about the military ballots and the postmarks. When I hear which Dems are agreeing that all the military ballots should be counted, regardless of "problems", I sense trouble. It's usually so clear cut who the good guys are!"
I understand your lack of trust. I share it. But there's such a thing as bowing to the inevitable. The democrats, as a party, have a desire to survive. As much as they want to win, this isn't the slam dunk they thought it would be, the Republicans and the people actually pushed back for a change. We may be seeing the first cracks in the dam here. They simply cannot defend doing this to our servicemen and women, this is poison in their well. We'll know soon.
It is his, and clinton's men. Herron was hired by the DNC just for this purpose. I have entered a petition to the supreme Court in Florida demanding the arrest of Mark Herron as the head of an illegal conspiracy designed to fraudulently deprive absent miltary personel of their absolute right to vote. The law is very clear that any interference is a felony and punishable by up to five years in prison. He held face to face seminars with democrat ballot counters which means that anyone he came in contact with as a part of this scheme is also guilty of conspiracy. Rico applies. They just never expected us to get our hands on soooo much information. You know the dems think we are as stupid as their constituents are.
Wasn't there a story about 3 ships in the Gulf with their ballots still there a day or two ago ??
One chad over the line ...
LOL I love that song.
One chad over the line, Sweet Jesus,
One chad over the line
Sitting downtown in Palm Beach County
One chad over the line...
oops....italics off! I hope
A deep politics exercise answer.
Carter was on the evening news a couple of evenings ago. He went on record forcefully as advocating hand recounts as being the fairest way to settle the issue. As an engineer, as a micro-managing detail manager, and as someone who served under Adm. Rickover, he should know much better than that. Carter is not acceptable as a broker.
Ford, who pardoned Nixon, is the only surviving member of the Warren Commission which in 1964 decided that LHO alone killed JFK, suppressing a lot of evidence to the contrary. Ford was the CIA's best friend while he was in Congress. Gore now has CIA-friendly operatives like Gerald Posner appearing on news shows shilling for him. Ford is not acceptable as a broker.
I would be interested to know who is driving this notion of a blue ribbon panel. It sounds suspect from the beginning. Bush holds most of the cards at this time and can still be elected president via the Fla. House and the U.S. House, if the Republicans show some spine. The stakes are the Supreme Court nominations, which I think is a tangible asset to all parties concerned, so I expect an outcome in favor of Bush.
We all know that hundreds of our service men and women are stationed around the world at our foreign embassies. Many of these servicemens' votes came home to the US inside of diplomatic pouches, therefore no foreign postmark.
It's much worse this time. People didn't have time to care about a BJ from an intern.
This time it is about freedom, and a lot of people that didn't care about Monica are very concerened about Gore's theft of an election.
You are grossly underestimating the fraud. I believe they have been planning this for 4 years, if not 8. Look at all the ways we KNOW they messed with the vote:
Non-citizens voting
Felons voting
Multiple voting by one individual
Alzheimers and senile elderly having their votes cast for them
Failing to mail absentee ballots to the military
Failing to deliver completed absentee ballots
Vote-buying for cigarettes
Computer ballot tampering
That is just the tip of the iceberg. In Indianapolis they found a voting machine in a ravine 2 days after the election. I haven't even covered the fact that we don't know HOW those totals are tabulated and who is in charge of making sure that they are accurate. If it is Voter News Service, then there is ANOTHER case of fraud.
If we hadn't had such a good candidate, we would have been flattened by the juggernaut. The dems are mad because they didn't cheat enough.
We had great turnout (pay no attention to what the media says) and great involvement. The fraud was phenomenal.
I will tell you this. The dems really thought they were going to win. Look at Bill Clinton's behavior. The Esquire cover, the trip to Vietnam... the fraud in FLORIDA designed to humiliate Jeb...these indicate to me Bill thought he was going to get to do big-time payback. Instead he got a big dose of backfire, and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy!!
mein fuehrer.
The time is near.
> > AT the very end of the show, Chris Matthews asked the panelists if Gore can get enough votes to win. Can you let me know what their answers were, please. Thanks!
> Begala said, "Yes, plenty!" Caddell said, "Only if he steals them." John Fund's response was inaudible as Matthews was talking over him.
I believe Fund sarcastically said something to the effect of, sure, he'll find the votes he needs to get.
Carter was on the evening news a couple of evenings ago. He went on record forcefully as advocating hand recounts as being the fairest way to settle the issue.
How come he ain't over in the middle east winning a NOBEL for bring peace to Israel and the PLA ?
Regarding the Begala rant about Bush's service, the relpy is simple. "Obviously the military thinks his service was just fine. What's your problem with it?" This is one bad pile they've stepped in here. It was not accidental it was a calculated effort to deny the vote of a group of people. In fact that is a civil rights violation. And the people they are denying have a great deal of respect and affection from the people.
regards
You are correct in being suspicious, with gore, every dirty deed is possible. Let the democRATs throw the military votes, but make sure they pay the price.
Worse yet...like the inconceivable with that scum in the oval office now, it could be for EIGHT years! That's the scary part, who ever thought we'd have that pervert we have now for eight years????Impeached? What's that? That and fifty cents will buy you a cup of java back in Arkansas... and he says the Repubs owe him an apology!!! Apologise THIS, Bill!
Lieberman is scheduled for all the talk shows in the morning...
No. And in fact, if I thought it would prevent me having to listen to Mr. Lieberman whine through the next four years, I would submit myself to any number of dental degradations with benefit of drugs. It would be a small price to pay. fsf
Gore set up lawyers before Nov. 7th,had a plane gased and ready on alert,had a telemarleting office call the jews and blacks to tell them they were french fried disenfranchised and to sue,had Jesse Rent a Mob Jackson on stand by with 10,000000000 black people,planted fake ballot boxes in schools and hotels to divert,
planted the butterfly ballot called the plm bcher's idiots and knew they'd follow through,got 1000 billion Israelites to vote for him but only 100 qualified and the concordes load of fake ones didn't make it,found the ONE army man in Kosovo paid him off to get on camera and say I voted for Gore,
found a hundred Carol's,hired the best lawyer Streisand and Cher could by to back up the 73,called OJ's lawyer on standby,picked Fla. so he could trash Jeb and SOS,practiced the term WILL OF THE PEOPLE in the mirror till he thought it looked OK and called James Carville.
AND HE STILL LOST!
DO NOT UNDER ESTIMATE THE LEVELS TO WHICH LIBERALS WILL STOOP TO STAY IN POWER
You're right! Military mail often is Not postmarked, and that was not part of the stipulation. The ballots just had to be in by midnight last night. Now the democraps are changing the rules, just like they are with this assinine and illegal hand-count!
The extent of all of this fraud may have Gore singing solo. Even R.M. Daly Chicago mayor is putting a distance between him and this FLA. Thing.But the darn judges seem to want to keep Gore alive. These people have been getting away with crimes for 8 yrs. So why should this matter be different? Are the chickens comming home?
Yeah, but it makes no sound so it won't be reported.
Dittos. They are attempting to spin themselves out of a hopeless situation. Next be prepared for them to start spinning that is was actually Republicans that threw out military ballots!
Interesting theory. Friday night Christian celebration=no Joe Lieberman. Saturday, OK for Christians to sleep late. Orthodox Joe has to beat it to shul. Sunday, Holy Day for that "faith tradition" Gore and free time for Ortho Joe. fsf
by big ern
HUGE APPRECIATIVE BUMP!!!
My question: is all of this vote fraud restricted to FL? Or have we just seen the tip of the tip of the iceberg. Remember we are dealing with evil ruthless people.
Did anyone catch Jesse Jackson accusing George Bush of the stopping of the Military vote? And no one challenged him on it.
Here's an idea. Send the IRS one dollar and tell them to keep counting it until they get to the amount owed for taxes. LOL
regards
Cadell is an old-fashioned Democrat with principles. Hard to find these days.
As cynical as I am, I have come to the conclusion that Caddell and Andrew Sullivan are perhaps the two last honest Democrats.
I think the tip of the iceberg. I posted earlier that there were many, many ways that they stole votes, falsified votes, and cancelled Republican votes.
Ever wonder why survey after survey shows us a conservative country, but for some reason we keep sending democrats back to Congress?
Ever wonder why we are always hearing about how we really like a "divided government"?
Ever wonder why we are told that voter turnout is really low?
I think fraud enters into all of this. I would not be surprised to find out that they have had this mechanism in place since 1992.
Yep. As soon as those ballots were cast aside and probably went missing for a time, I've had that same concern.
"The envelope, please".
It's worrisome that the Dems are saying the military votes should count even if the postmarks are not what they should be. High likelihood that the postmarks aren't what they should be because envelopes have been replaced illegally with ballots for Gore. Be VERY careful what you wish for here.
Point #1 Do you agree that algore will take the win any way he can get it?
Point #2 Are there not 1400 discarded ballots?
Point #3 Does not Bush hold a 930 vote lead?
Simple math tells us that all algore needed to do if these ballots are fraudulant is allow them to be counted and he has a win without all this negative fallout re: uncounted military ballots.
The pr nightmare that goes along with discarding these ballots even initially is harmful in the extreme because it will linger in people's minds(especially military/military family). Not even the most Machiavellian mind would create this scenerio and risk it's implementation.
The Gorons really outsmarted themselves here. How many overseas ballots were thrown out, 1,000? Given the way those ballots were going, that represented a Bush plurality of 200 or 300. And, for that, they administered a potentially crippling PR defeat to themselves. What can they have been thinking of?
Exactly. Gore's only hope of winning this election is on the PR front--to have the unofficial PBC recounts go far enough his way that he can claim he was robbed. SOS Harris won't buy that, of course, but she'll be portrayed as a political hack.
With all the commotion about the military ballots, Gore probably figured that blocking the counting of 1,000 ballots would increase by 1,000 the number of PBC votes he needed to be a winner, while given a 3:1 Republican advantage those 1,000 ballots would only require him to find 500 more PBC votes.
Not to say those 500 won't be a real problem, coming on top of the 930 he already needs, but the PR hit he was taking was just too much.
"There is another trial balloon being floated to create a blue ribbon panel consisting on Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter and the likes to decide the election. That needs to be shot down instantly, if not sooner!!!"
Just like with a third world country, eh?
What about the simple fact that no one in Tennessee wants him????
I keep trying to think through the logic. WHY did the Gore machine play hardball with a mere few hundred absentee military ballots if they are about to steal 2,000 or more "new" Gore ballots in the three hand-count Connties?
Maybe the thread elsewhere on FreeRepublic, saying that the Gore gain from the three counties will only be about 500 votes is correct. Maybe in Palm Beach and elsewhere the Gore machine has already stolen the bulk of the votes they can steal in the first count and the recount, and there isn't room to steal many more?
Keep in mind that one thing the Palm Beach thieves cannot change is the total number of people who (allegedly) went to the polls. The new, "dimpled" chad counts policy is an attempt to steal more votes. However, it won't work on any ballot with any other presidential vote punched.
The (More er Less) Honorable Billybob,
cyberCongressman from Western Carolina
Pat Caddell might be an old-fashioned Blue Dog
This guy is an "old time Democrat". Not dishonest, just different views on issues. I can live with those kind of Dems.
The problem is today's Democrap party is nothing but a bunch of mobsters hiding under the veil of legitimacy. I can't believe this has gone this far in my country. These people are nothing but evil.
There's another side to this point you've raised that I didn't consider in my post to you just above. You say (I didn't see it, but, for the sake of discussion, I'll take your word for it) Hastings and Begala were decrying the non-counting of these military ballots. Is it possible that they, as facilitators of this criminal debacle, realize that respect for our military is sacred, and they want to distance themselves from it publicly because, even though they helped with this effort, the public is not lying down fast enough, with claims of, "Let's move on, just get it over with", etc., and the realization that people are really watching this closely is dawning on them? In other words, they started something that might have flown if they didn't have to go too far, but the vote was so far against them that they had to go farther and farther with their corruption to reach the votes they need, even so far as to try to discount the sacred military votes, but now they see that the public WILL NOT let them get away with shafting the military so they are trying to disown their very own acts? Like Alfred E. Neumann (BTW, resembles Joe Loserman) asking, "Who, me?"
Now what happens if they go back and count the remaining absentees.
Since the counties have already certified the results to the SOS, does adding to the certified absentee count extend the mandatory deadline for receiving those results, after SOS just denied an extension for manual hand counts.
Will that extension give the dims any loophole for allowing handcounts after the deadline?
"Ever wonder why survey after survey shows us a conservative country, but for some reason we keep sending democrats back to Congress?"
I've wondered about this myself. I think there are still a lot of older voters who grew up during the depression who can't change their ways. They are essentially conservative but there is a basic animosity toward Republicans perhaps due to union affiliation that they can't shake. This is also one of the reasons the social security card has been play so successfully in the past. However, this year showed that has been exhausted based on exit polling that showed the seniors about split in their vote. As for myself, I vote a straight Republican ticket regardless. I encourage everyone else to do likewise.
"These absentee ballots can be used to great advantage -showing fraud for starters. As you said, their existence can be used to argue against including the handcounted ballots - without which algore loses. Just throwing them into the count is the last thing that should be done."
Yep, those excluded absentee ballots are worth more in the PR battle than as simple numbers added to the tally. Indeed, the ballots not counted might be the ones that decide the election.
Regarding earlier responses about the "trap" of including the military absentee ballots leading to inclusion of hand recount ballots as well, this IS a public relations issue for the Bush camp to watch carefully. In the end, however, the issue of postmarks is decided by Federal law specifically addressing absentee ballots, while the issue of whether late totals (from hand recounts) should be included by the Fl Secretary of State is decided by state law.
"Like Alfred E. Neumann (BTW, resembles Joe Loserman) asking, "Who, me?""
I think it was "What, me worry?"
Careful.
O'Rielly on Foxnews now (unlike yesterday) is saying that Daley is mostly behind the fraud machine and he thinks "Gore is not calling the shots." He says he has evidence of that.
So maybe Caddel knows Gore has plausible deniability here.
"It's worrisome that the Dems are saying the military votes should count even if the postmarks are not what they should be. High likelihood that the postmarks aren't what they should be because envelopes have been replaced illegally with ballots for Gore. Be VERY careful what you wish for here."
Worrisome?
The AFLCIO OWNS THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE!!
When, Oh, when will people finally realize this?
I think it was "What, me worry?"
I think you're right. And I think they are worried.
The "Who, me?" I was thinking of must have been from Bill Clinton.
That's a good point that I don't see coming forth, out of the mouths of our liberal media newspeople. And that really makes me angry and sickened of them.
Suppose the Dems decide that counting the military ballots is a good idea. Does the SoS refuse to accept them? If so, what does that say about Republicans' opinion of the military. But if she accepts them, then how can she deny the hand counts?
I agree with you on this. Too easy to spin that the overseas votes should count, but the PB hand counts should not??? I can hear it coming.
They have already been counted, just like the other 100,000,000 votes. Furthermore, they have been recounted, with statistically suspicious results in the big democrat counties. The only reason why the hand recount was started was because of a major manipulative propaganda push ginned up out of whole cloth, starting with the telemarketing effort.
I do not believe that she can legally accept them at this time. She cannot legally accept the hand counts either. It would be up to a court to force her to accept anything past what has been reported to her as of noon today. She's in the clear, the Republicans are in the clear -- because of the law. This is a huge air strike on the Democrats -- those military people by not having their votes counted are doing more for the right side than if their votes were counted!
But it's for the PR war only. It's a distraction to the Democrats and it's a monster black eye, maybe even a mortal wound. But it's the FSC decision on Mon or Tues that could really end this thing. In the meantime we pile it on them. The FSC, if they were thinking of doing something poltical, better really take care now.
This is our air war, which gives the FSC both good cover and a damn good reason (remember the fraud accusations today as well) to do the right thing.
I noticed that because I either saw it here or heard earlier in the day on one of the cable news channels. When something like that gets reported you know it is a plant from the WH or Gore camp figuring they might sell the idea before it would reach the Congress in Florida as well as in Washington. That would be something that they know they can't win there, not without time to sell the myth that they are on the side of the angels.
Pres. Gerald Ford went along with the Warren Commission because our little ears were too frail to hear the truth about the Kennedy Assassination. I will never trust him on a vote count deal like this is. And even last year, I heard him still back that Report. Hooey!
I bet that is Congressman Steve Buyer (Sounds like Buoyer) He was one of the House Managers and I am proud to see he is from INDIANA. GO HOOSIERS
That quote was not mine.
I know.
Regards,
My husband was in the Navy and said the mail is postmarked on the ship- unless things have changed since 1969- ?
Begala? It's cover. Preposterously transparent cover. There is just a point where even the DemoRats can go too far. I sincerely hope the point has been reached with the arbitrary nullifying of the military ballots.
It's payback time, freepers!
"Can Gore get the needed votes to win?" --Chris Matthews
"At this point, only if he steals them." --Pat Caddell
A paraphrase of the exchange.
I know. And the whole thing sickens me. Especially the treatment of the military ballots. I've had enough of them and their 'no controlling legal authority'. Here is what I intend to do about it. Click Here if you haven't read it already.
I believe that if Gore becomes president, no one but the African American block will want to be associated with his administration. On the other hand, if Bush becomes president everyone, especially the media, will try to take credit for it. Keep 'em well at a distance, Governor. First job: indict Gore and Clintons.
Will that extension give the dims any loophole for allowing handcounts after the deadline?
I have never been able to comprehend the illogical workings of the legal world, but I think the answer may be yes. IMHO, I think just to be safe, the Bush people should not press for a count of the military ballots right now. I don't see any reason though not to ratchet up the PR war by making as much hay out of the issue as possible on every news and talking head show that they can get their people on.
I think the most vital thing now by far is to get the hand re-counts stopped. I believe the FSC is stalling for time to let PBC and Broward "find" enough "missed" Gore AND Bush votes to serve as "evidence" that there are many more miscounted ballots to be found.
They will hear oral arguments Monday, but of course they won't issue any ruling then. Then, after a 3 day work week, the court will find on the following Monday that for the sake of determining the true will of the people the re-counts must be allowed to proceed until all ballots are re-counted. By that time the PBC election board, combined with it's partners-in-crime in Broward, will have found, lo and behold, enough Gore votes to give him about a 125 vote lead.
The FSC will then determine that a fair and accurate tally can now be reached with the large sample of ballots counted at that point, so the re-count will stop and the SoS shall now proceed with the certification of Florida's presidential election vote, including the new figures from PBC and Broward of course.
If my idea about the preceding is correct, counting the disallowed military ballots now would only serve to make it a little more tedious for the Dem county officials to come up with the larger amount of Gore votes needed to give Gore a lead, but they are very resourceful people, and I am sure they are up to the task. If not, counting the military ballots might make it easier for the court to order the 1000's of dimpled ballots to be counted as well, for fairness" of course.
Even if this scenario is nothing but a remote possibility, I would like to see Bush go directly to the USSC (if that is posible) after Monday's hearing and ask for a stop of the re-count on the grounds that time is of the essence in the matter, and that the result of the re-count would be illegitimate under FL law anyway due to it's projected completion date being so far past any reasonable extension of the 7 day deadline prescribed by FL law.
Since I am completely baffled by the intricate complexities of the legal system, my scenario may be very improbable, if not impossible, under the rules of the court system,(courts got rules?) but it seems fairly logical to me at least. And that is exactly why it is probably not possible under the rules.
Pat Caddell was also vociferous in his opposition to the bombing of Serbia. If half of Democrats were as honest, fair, and thoughtful as Caddell, well...!
I would actually be more opposed to Ford before Carter. Gerald Ford pisses me every time he opens his mouth. I can't tell you one thing that I agree with him about. At least I have to say that Carter's heart is probably in the right place, but I wouldn't want to debate it.
Did you by any chance see Chris Matthews tonight? The best program I have watched that dealt with the issues at hand in a serious manner. For the first time, it had the depth of where this is heading. Although they are hanging on to the phrase that we aren't in a Constitutional Crisis like the Kennedy/Johnson spun that we weren't at war with VietNam. Police Action I think they called it. This thing sure looks like one to me. It is on a precipice and could go in any directions.
The questions brought to mind! The 'Crisis' is heading for the Congress? Depends on whether the powers that be were to be proven of voter fraud? It's a matter of time before someone will come forward, perhaps that can prove that ballot tampering went on, or someone crunches the numbers and can prove that the math doesn't gibe with the eligible voters? What is the market going to do Monday? The Electoral College meets, will the count be over by then?
This thing has the potential of being a much larger historic event than the impeachment. My proof? My daughter-in law. Missy is a young mother that works hard and her life is her children. She is a sensitive young woman and rarely has time to sit, let alone being able to follow the news, but she is following this. Maybe it's because this is the first time she has ever voted.
Early 30something, so she could have, but dedicated to her children to a fault almost. She wants Josh, her son, to watch what is happening. Monicagate she was not eager to discuss with him. She is watching this event and has a sense of urgency about it. This is all anyone is talking about because we should all know by now, who our next president is going to be. Who would have thought that we could have an impeachment trial separated a year or so apart from a tie election that we could wind up with a President Hastart that nobody voted for?
"I'm cynical,too. I think it's just a trap to make the Republicans feel good...Dems will change all the focus to 'getting their accurate count so all the peoples votes are counted' and all this military stuff will be forgotten....Gore declares himself victor and it's all over. The nation will be too sick of the whole thing to tolerate any lawsuits by Bush" --usmom
"Folks: So Big Al got caught...Reclaiming the perceived moral high-ground...they will get the...sheeple to go along with the handcounts" --AUH2OY2K
You 11/xx/00 Boo-Birds crack me up. Be assured that I am doing a much better number on your message boards than you are doing here. See, y'all keep using the same play from the same old playbook...at least change the record once in a while...
I'm an old-time Dem or was in my thinking, anyway. I voted Bush & am re-registering Republian. They lost me 8 or 9 years ago. This military ballot thing has me worried, too. Paranoia is where we're all at these days, thanks to Clinton/Hillary/Reno/Gore. I've quit watching the media, am tired of yelling at the screen!
I read a piece on this thread last week that some guy named Knight who is a major Gore donor went to see Gore in DC to let him know that he was speaking for approx. 75 big time donors who gave Gore until this coming Wed. to shut it down...they don't want to keep throwing good money after bad...IMHO this military ballot fiasco has just sunk Gore...he won't have the money to keep paying all these attorneys.
Isn't it signed and witnessed?
On FOX someone said that:
- some military voters used nicknames not real names
- some were signed and dated but not witnessed
- some witnesses neglected to write in their addresses (which, evidently, is mandatory for witness identification)
Clarification, anyone?
BOLD off...
Maybe there is another scenario the democRATS are trying to pull off. I read the following and it seemed pretty reasonable that the DemocRATS have thought this thru very carefully. Never underestimate the ENEMY!
"THE DEMOCRATS MILITARY ABSENTEE BALLOT TRAP (VANITY)
Your Opinion/Questions Miscellaneous Keywords: MILITARY ABSENTEE BALLOTS Published: 11-18-00 Author: Self Posted on 11/18/2000 21:25:26 PST by commish
There has been a lot of speculation as to what the deal is with the DEMS sudden about face on counting the unmarked military ballots
These points all have merit, and all of the possible trap and setup scenarios are indeed possible -- BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE POST ONE THE REAL REASOIN BEHIND THE DEM TURNAROUND.
The TRAP in this is as follows -- THE DEADLINE TO COUNT AND SUBMIT ABSENTEE TOTALS HAS PASSED!!!!
IF THE COUNTIES GO BACK AND COUNT THE UNMARKED MILITARY BALLOTS - AND THE SoS ACCEPTS THOSE AMENDED COUNTS AFTER THE DEADLINE THEN THE CASE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT HAS BEEN LOST AND THE HAND COUNTS MUST BE ADMITTED TOO!!!!
I am a member of the US Air Force and I am MAD AS HELL over this but the fact that they were not counted is no longer the point -- THE SoS CANNOT ALLOWED TO ACCEPT AMENDED ABSENTEE NUMBERS AFTER THE DEADLINE FOR CERTIFIED SUBMISSION!!!!! THAT IS THE DEMS TRAP!!!!"
Wow - even Begala said that?
My God, even Congresmman Alcee Hastings is saying this military thing is not right.
Would someone tell the Saloonies that? They're still beating the same old tiresome drum over there, and don't see anything wrong with this. Don't understand, or want to see, the details of military letter carrying.
This is amazing.
In other news from SNL (paraphrased):
"The Democrats have announced that three new kinds of ballots will be accepted: ballots with spit on it, blank ballots, and ballots marked for Bush."
I think Cadell got burned by the Dems, and he is not willing to shill. I first saw him Election Night, and didn't realize his party affiliation until I read it here on FR. He's very fair, and he knows the Party Masters.
I'm pretty sure than GW has never peeked down the barrel of a long gun.
Bump. And I think the bad news about the Dems' five page memo will have done enough damage. They don't have to open the absentees - just the sheer number of the rejects is enough to do the damage. It could be that challenging and opening the rejected absentees will open a Pandora's Box of recounts again.
KPIX Ch 5 - the one who showed the SF Freep Rally - had a significant chunk of the top of their newscast addressing the fraud issue. They had three segs of the Montana Gov (sorry, can't spell his name) interspersed with footage from PBC with counters, chads, etc. It was about a 2-3 min segment all told - pretty amazing.
I don't think I have access to Chris Matthews because I don't have cable... On Vietnam, I think the parallel is this: that Americans are again challenged by facing the issue of what it means to be loyal to their country. Now, as with Vietnam, there are two separate answers depending on what camp one belongs to. Another perspective is that Gore, like Johnson, is singlehandedly capable of dividing and harming the country by his own actions. The market, I think, is robust enough to rebound if Bush wins and to muddle along albeit in a very impaired way if Gore somehow wins (which I at this moment tend to doubt, see the legal threads for a rough approximation of my thinking).
Finally, as with Vietnam, if Gore presists in bringing the nation to the brink of crisis, the scars left over from these days of discord could take another generation to heal.
"can't be seen beating up on a Jew after all"
Oh, yeah?
EVEN if the guy doing the "beating" is a Jew too?
Times like this I wish I was an Official Media Pundit. I'd rip that twit a new (figurative) clymer-and-a-half. And if anyone said a word about it, I'd smirk, and say "so sue me." :)
I think it was his brother or nephew or father ...
"And, for that, they administered a potentially crippling PR defeat to themselves. What can they have been thinking of?"
They were thinking "no one outside of our organization will ever see this memo."
As cynical as I am, I have come to the conclusion that Caddell and Andrew Sullivan are perhaps the two last honest Democrats.
BUMP that!
She cannot legally accept the hand counts either. It would be up to a court to force her to accept anything past what has been reported to her as of noon today. She's in the clear, the Republicans are in the clear -- because of the law. This is a huge air strike on the Democrats -- those military people by not having their votes counted are doing more for the right side than if their votes were counted!
BUMP BUMP BUMP! Yes.
I like your "take" on it, Miss Marple, because the alternative for me is knowing I live in the Land of the (Easily) Duped.
THE DEADLINE TO COUNT AND SUBMIT ABSENTEE TOTALS HAS PASSED!!!!
You are falling into the now very tiresome Demonocrat trap of moral/legal equivalance when these things are not morally equivalent.
Those who cast votes in the "handcount counties" had their ballots counted - by machines with a 1 in 1,000,000 error rate if we believe the manufacturer's statistics. They were not denied a vote.
The military votes that were received in time to be counted were not counted within the deadline because of a clear conspiracy in the Democratic party not to count those votes. There is an old equity principle called the doctrine of unclean hands - you cannot take active measures to force a default on someone else's part and then take advantage of that default. If, after the fact of the Democratic action to prevent those votes from being counted it is determined that they were lawful votes then they should be counted.
Again, counting clear and lawful votes is very different from an effort to divine the intent of the voter when the case is not clear at all. There is no moral equivalance, but the Democrats have created one and you are falling for it.
I think you are right. I did see somewhere here on FR a statistician's analysis of the Palm Beach precincts showing the numbers of voters in percentages of votes cast. It appeared that in several precincts the Gore vote was over 100% of registered democrats so what might that tell us if it is accurate. I believe someone from the Bush camp is analyzing all of this. I will try to look for that thread. and I'll come back to post it if I can find it.
Where have you been, Congressman?
"To deny our Sailors the right to have their ballots counted for lack of a postmark is more than tragic, it's downright Clitonesque!"
Right on -- and how about the Marines on embassy duty, whose mail probably moves in diplomatic pouches???
I've quit watching the media, am tired of yelling at the screen!
LOL! My wife said she's going to hide the remote so I don't throw it through the screen! FR is my safe haven for the truth.
I've been a lifelong Republican but I have no malice towards the old time Democrats that were honest (just wrong on the issues IMO). These Dems aren't the same ones you may have supported 10 years ago. These new guys are power-hungry thugs where winning is the ONLY thing that's important. To heck with laws, ethics, right and wrong.
In fact, their underlings remind me of soldiers in history that were normal law abiding people that went into the army but because of their evil commanders they too became monsters and committed atrocities against humanity.
I don't mean to say that the Dems are committing atrocities, but what I'm trying to say is the "Clintonzation" of these people is an actual phenomena. People at the lower levels see their superiors doing illegal things, and unethical things, so it must be okay and they do them too. Corrupt leadership breeds corruption.
As a very patriotic person this makes me sick. I've had a knot in my stomach since the election. Will it ever end?
"The Democrat Party is 180 degrees from where it was under Jimmy Carter. Carter was an inept president, but a pristeen human being."
Yeah well since Carter has left the Baptist Church even he is out defending Gore. Is there ONE honorable Democrat left in this Country?
O'Reilly is wrong on this point. Even if it is Daily, it is Gore who is ultimately responsible. That's the problem we've been having for the past eight years and quite frankly, I'm sick of it.
THE SoS CANNOT ALLOWED TO ACCEPT AMENDED ABSENTEE NUMBERS AFTER THE DEADLINE FOR
CERTIFIED SUBMISSION!!!!! THAT IS THE DEMS TRAP!!!!"
I think you need to change your screen name.
I have been secretly enjoying Gore trying to steal the election. He is slowly but surely dragging the whole democratic party down with him. It is like watching a surgeon extracting cancer from Lady Liberty.
"Quando la neve si fonde, rivela la merda del cane." Look it up in an Italian/American translation dictionary.
"IF THE COUNTIES GO BACK AND COUNT THE UNMARKED MILITARY BALLOTS - AND THE SoS ACCEPTS THOSE AMENDED COUNTS AFTER THE DEADLINE THEN THE CASE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT HAS BEEN LOST AND THE HAND COUNTS MUST BE ADMITTED TOO!!!!"
That is why the Republicans will not press for the recounting of Military ballots before the vote is certified. By then, there will be conclusive evidence of Dems illegaly throwing out those ballots, and Florida Republicans will "challenge" the vote, if they even need to at that point. That is the luxury that the leader has in this case. The Dems could not afford to allow the the vote to be certified before they had a vote number that they can spin to win the public over to their side. The post certification legal challenge option will be discussed in more detail now that it is getting closer and closer to certification.
"I think you need to change your screen name."
I think you need to read the article before you decide to pass judgement. I quoted an article from which was on the boards already. Your quote of my article is of a quote that I quoted and its intent was for reasonable thought.
"Again, counting clear and lawful votes is very different from an effort to divine the intent of the voter when the case is not clear at all. There is no moral equivalance, but the Democrats have created one and you are falling for it."
As we all know this debacle is about politics and public opinion. If the public percieves the DemocRATS as holding up the military vote it will not bode as well for the DemocRATS. However, if the public percieves that the Republicans are willing to recount votes that were thrown out, the question the public will have is why are the republicans accepting votes that count for them and were thrown out and not endorsing the manual hand counts which the machine threw out. It seems plausible to the second scenario that this debacle could muddle the equation of public opinion that much more.
It would certainly be stupid for the Pubbies to have made a move to supress the Militay Ballots. After all they would have been in their favor. I heard Sore Loooooosser say this morning, as he made the rounds of the talk shows, that they had nothing to do with supressing the Militay Ballots. Well if they didn't just who in the H--- did?
"Well if they didn't just who in the H--- did?"
They(the DemocRATS) have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar so to speak. The 5 page memo is the evidence!!
Just a secondary comment on the millitary absentee ballots, post marks and such. Having been in the military for 20 years, and having served in several foreign lands on and off, I've had opportunity to send MANY letters from those locations. I've voted at least once by absentee ballot many years ago. I know that in many cases, letters addressed to my wife were received by her, through an APO address, and were not postmarked as such. Some letters were stamped, some were not. Regardless, she received the letters. Not sure if MY vote was counted oh-so-many years ago (for Reagan), but I THINK it was! Perhaps I ought to call for a recount! Still, this is all nonsense, throwing out military votes, since we know the numbers will increase for Bush and not Gore. We also know that 75% of them will most likely be for Bush, so for every 4 thrown out, 3 for Bush, 1 for Gore. The numbers/ratios SHOULD remain relatively constant.
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