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Fellow American Conservatives and Constitutionalists:
There could be a silver lining in this election mess. More Americans than ever are beginning to realize what is at stake, what the battle is over, and what the Democratic Party is all about. They are hopefully beginning to see that "the ends justifies the means" thinking going on puts us at risk for war and bloodshed.
But in these infuriating times, our response to the corruption MUST be thought out.
If Bush is allowed to win, we can probably go back to our homes, so to speak, and continue our struggle within the conservative camp, some of us working to bolster the Constitution Party or help conservative Liberterians and Republicans, and some of you, for whatever insane reason, working to move the GOP ever closer to the Democratic Party. But if Gore is allowed to steal the election, we HAVE to respond. I think it might be best for the nation politically if Gore IS elected under these circumstances, but at the same time, if we don't raise a ruckus, the Dems will have gotten away with the ultimate, and may be unstoppable.
So, if Gore wins, we HAVE to act. How to act?
I have heard (and given) suggestions for various kinds of demonstrations, tax revolts, seccession, food strikes by rural America, and even suggestions of uprisings.
But we need to be careful. Over-acting would be as dangerous as failure to act. I think most of us can see that this nation is still divided, for essentially the same reasons, along similar geographical lines, the same way it was in the 19th century. The same group of people are being used as pawns by the aggressors, even. In a way, the horrible war that culmunated from that division never settled anything. The seeds of that conflict continue today, adn in some ways the differences in the two sides have even increased.
So, it seems (and I think recently mainstream America may be seeing what a possibility this is) we are sliding toward bloodshed once again. Our main goal must be to head off this bloodshed, for the sake of our posterity.
For any claiming to represent the Constitutionalist side to act violently or provocatively right now would do us irreparable harm. That's why we should be on the look out for Reichstag fires, because, just as in 1995, the momentum is on our side right now (believe it or not). If Gore is elected illegally, we MUST act, but reasonably. It also must be coordinated. An uncoordinated response would be worthless.
It seems to me that the most effective response under such circumstances would be a tax revolt. If thousands or millions of us pledged to each other to withold our taxes next year, and follow through, we will be heard. It is overdue anyway, in my view. Our money pays for things that we are all vehemently opposed to, and it is unconstitutional for the government to demand to know about every penny we make. I sincerely doubt that they would attempt to imprison millions of the hardest working, most affluent citizens of this country. A tax reviolt is a non-violent but strong expression of our outrage, and there is no potential for emotions to get out of control and for this form of protest to become violent.
I'm not articulating this very well; but if the Democrats sabatoge this election, I think this would be our best response. And, I repeat, a response WOULD be absolutely essential.
I heard Loserman this morning refuse to tell Sam Donaldson that they would accept a Bush win after the hand count. That, to me, meant that they have no intention of ever conceding. Also, Daley told koppel the other night that he was sure that it would all be well over by december 18th, but I could tell he was lying. Daley thinks it will go on past that date. I think they are trying to hold on to the Injustice Department at all costs. That truly puts our nation at risk.
We must act just right - not too little, not too much. This is a crucial point in history.
Also, PLEASE, even if you disagree about some of my comments about the nature of the division in this country, or my opinions about the struggles within the conservative movement, I ask that you not be distracted by that, but consider my main points that coordinated action must be atken, and that I think the best action would be witholding our income taxes.
My opinion: It would seem, if you step back and take the 35,000 foot view of this, that there are too many skeletons in the White house closets to clean out in time for a new administration. Some members of the current administration would be executed as traitors if justice were to be truly served after a change in power. These people know that they can't let the White House go, at any cost.
The skeletons of Ron Brown, Vince Foster, and others can't be exposed to public scrutiny.
You hold out too much hope that people in power, no matter what their political persuasion, would do the right thing. The precedence of the Warren Commision has been set. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it stated that the man already dead perpetrated the Kennedy Assassination alone. They did this because they believed the country could not handle the truth about their government. Any discovery that subsequent administrations unearth about the Clinton regime will be likewise buried for the same reason. It is much safer to maintain the status quo by keeping the dirt buried, in their eyes.
I'm afraid you may be right. I guess they would go in panic mode if a Third Party actually started polling 40%, by some miracle.
Could a tax revolt be coordinated, though?
I love the idea of a tax revolt but it must be public and a mass movement. Mass demonstrations by working folk are hard top co-ordinate as well.
The problem here is that in the sixties most demonstrators were college students with too ujch time on their hands. Todays demonstrators are pretty much Jesse jackson welfare crowd that have time to spare as well.
Us working folk have a hard time taking time off work and risking jail when we have families to support. My wife is scared to death of the IRS and what they could do.
AT some point though sacfifice will have to be made.
I agree with some form of civil disobedience, with the tax revolt being the best idea.
If Gore wins this way, it won't be forgotten and he doesn't have the personality to unify the country. The question how many would be willing to participate in a massive tax revolt or similar effort?
If Republicans had any guts in Congress, they would stop Gore from overturning a valid election -- at all costs.
Sooner or later Americans are going to HAVE to over-ride their fear of the IRS. Sooner or later, we need to refuse the money they demand from us to keep their corrupt machinery running.
You touched on another plus for a tax revolt - it doesn't take much time away from our other pressing duties. In fact, it saves us time.
If everyone will have guts, and do the right thing, and not chicken out or worry about whether everyone else is REALLY joining them, there will be too many of us in the protest for the IRS or anyone else to take on, and our action will be impossible to ignore at the same time.
One thing: preachers need to stop misinterpreting Jesus's words about the coin with Caeser's face on it, and stop sending the erroneous message from the pulpit that a Christian should "pay his taxes" no matter what. I guess many of them won't, so I would say Christians should ignore such sermons, because they lack understanding of our duties. I'm a devout Christian, and I would have stopped paying income taxes already if enough people would join me and I didn't have to spend my life ineffectively in jail.
Peace and liberty,
agrandis
bump
bump for consideration
Daley told koppel the other night that he was sure that it would all be well over by december 18th, but I could tell he was lying. Daley thinks it will go on past that date. Sorry my friend but you have bought into the misdirection play. The Don Goreleone thugs and slugs are buying time while ballots sufficiently ambiguous enough are tallied to be transmogrified into votes for Gore. When they have enough they will announce it through their knee-pad media sucks like Chris Matthews and Tim Russert, MSNBC and CNN and claim victory then wait to see if the Republicans will challenge the PR lies in the courts. You and I both know they won't. The election is over when the Democrat operatives total enough fabricated ballots and the crimnal enterprise that is the Democrat Party will hold the White House again. Chris*the satan bound catholic*Matthews asks inane questions like jesse jackson is feeding him through his earplug! He asked tonight 'Don't you think every ballot should be counted?' of a Republican congressman. The layers of evil spin in that one statement tells you the puke face is working for the criminal enterpriose Democrat Party! Matthews will be one of the first to proclaim Gore got more and then in the next breath say the Republicans just don't know how to play this game. Matthews is void of intergity and has no moral fiber left. he has had his knee pads on too long and isn't fit for slug food now. The nation can go to Hell and people like Chris Matthews and Tim Russert, both cinos (catholics in name only), will wonder what happened. They don't care as long as they get theirs. well, someone will likely give them theirs in the future Algore will create.
Before we settle on a set of actions, we should agree on a few guidelines. I suggest,
1. Don't do anything to seriously hurt the econonmy, not because money is more important than freedom and justice, but because it would be a PR nightmare.
2. Corollary to 1. We should do everthing we can to hurt the federal government.
3. We need to fight the media and the Democrats as a single enemy.
4. We need to use our strengths against their weaknesses. Intelligence over Irrationality, Hardwork over Laziness, Commitment to Principle over Commitment to Short-term Gains, Truth over Deceit.
5. Satire, ridicule, disgust, ostracism, shame should be used efficiently. Freeper are already very effective in this area.
6. Effectively harness the mass media to turn the masses onto the truth. AM radio, FoxNews and FreeRepublic.com are sufficient to counteract the whole of the mainstream media. We need to use non-campaign related political advertising. Also conservative movies, newservices and television networks.
This non-catholic is on your side. I agree with you, and have not bought into anything. They are bent at winning the White House at all costs, including the use of Reichstag Fires like the OKC bombing, if that's what it takes. I just think Daley knows that it may take them past Dec 18th to get their evil job done, and that's why he looked so uncomfortable.
I know almost nothing about Chris Mathews, except that he is a zero. I heard him once taking Rush Limbaugh's place (who knows why!) and found him to be boring, and to not have much to say other than meaningless blather. I guess that's why he's a Democrat.
But would you join in a tax revolt next year?
Don't forget that (and please feel free to look this up for yourself) according to Operation Garden Plot, tax resistors are to be shot. Yes, that's shot...
As I said, look it up for yourself...
Unequivocally YES.
Do you think we'll all get in trouble for even talking about a tax revolt? How do we decide which is the most appropriate way to respond to the coup-d'etat? Take a vote? ;-)
For your consideration, griff
I don't believe a tax REVOLT would... but tax REFORM called TAX REVOLT could. Flat Tax (cloaked in new terminology[???]) would resonate with everyone. Consumption tax would be harder to do.
For any claiming to represent the Constitutionalist side to act violently or provocatively right now
Provocatively, I am sure, would be any resistance whatsoever, including a tax revolt. The thought makes my skin crawl, as I'm sure some people would get canned -- especially if not enough join the wave.
Here are some cool items you can purchase to let people know how you feel without saying a word.
You hold out too much hope that people in power, no matter what their political persuasion, would do the right thing.
Not sure about that... I do know that they can't function without money. What we would have to do is if anyone has filed electronically would be to close all credit card accounts (or freeze them) and close bank accounts so the feds can't get into your money. Am I correct? What would that entail?
If Republicans had any guts in Congress, they would stop Gore from overturning a valid election -- at all costs.
And right now pushing the investigations of the matters of the e mails and all of the corruption which surrounds Gore.
If everyone were to just SKIP the JANUARY QUARTERLY TAX estimate payment it might be a good start. It is not criminal to skip a quarter. Eventually, you are assessed a penalty/interest but it is not overly punitive, and you do make up some of that with the interest you gain by keeping your money!
Also, regardless of who "wins", we must do something in each state to REFORM VOTING PROCEDURES to make cheating more difficult. It's hard telling how many elections the democrats have stolen in the past via election fraud!
I agree. Except I think we should THREATEN this just as soon as the "certification" ball has been taken out of our court. Once the Democrats tell Harris "we're breaking the law and we don't care who knows it", then we should THREATEN the tax revolt to every elected Democrat and every conservative media outlet, e-mailing all other conservative friends and family to do the same. If we effectively threaten, we might not need to carry out the threat.
This should NOT appear, in any way, to be inspired or endorsed by the Republican Party. It must look to be a grass-roots movement, an upsurge of outrage over Democrat attempts to steal the election.
Don't wait until it's already stolen. Right now, the law is on our side. If the FLA Supreme Court rules that it is not (which I expect them to do), then that will be the time to begin the campaign.
MUD - For your reading.
Numbers 1 and 2 of your points would fit in nicely with a coordinated tax revolt, I believe.
But 3 and 6 were very good points, and I almost think our campaign against the propaganda machinery would have to be a separate campaign. I had actually forgotten for a minute, until you mentioned the propaganda machine again, that that IS the biggest problem. Most of the city-dwelling sheep watch the tube, and they aren't primarily watching the news. They must be reached somehow.
For instance, this nation will no longer be able to be divided the way the Collectivists in the North have been dividing it for centuries, if we can break their stranglehold on our Black fellow citizens. The Blacks are not the only people they are duping, by any means, but we have to find a way of reaching out to them; not by pretending to be "Black" ourselves, and trying to join their culture (I am making the big assumption here that YOU are non-Black, as are most or all of the readers of this post, since 96% of them voted for Gore, adn most of the rest do not follow manstream politics), but by convincing them that we have no malice toward them, and that we want what is best for them, as much as any other Americans. We need to somehow build up trust in that part of our population, and slowly get them to trust and join us, and leave their race-baiting, self-appointed "leaders" behind. If this can be accomplished, the Collectivists will no longer be able to use them as pawns to divide our nation and advance their putrid agenda. Producing our own propaganda (truth) to unconfrontationally put before their eyes would be the way to accomplish this, I think. Also, we should support Blacks that have broken out of the mold, like Keyes, and make him more visible, to get them thinking. Also, perhaps we should be more vocal about the Liberals' comparison of homosexuality to being born with the physical genes from Africa. I would think that comparison by Liberals would be insulting to most Blacks, for many reasons.
I'm in a hurry so I'm not being very cogent here, but I like your points. They're good thinking.
Regarding number 4, we might think about how THEIR STRENGTHS could be used against them. That is usually the way to bring down an enemy, but I don't know exactly what that would be right now.
maybe i misunderstand you, but how would you get a flat tax enacted if the Dems steal our votes?
To pull off a SAFE tax revolt, we should establish escrow accounts in which to place what we owe. Therefore, we are not simply withholding it in rebellious fashion. FURTHER, it would give media an easy way to quantify the impact, i.e., the protesters have withheld 48,932,443.98.
If the law comes after us, courts will look very favorably - the equities will be in our favor.
What we would have to do is if anyone has filed electronically would be to close all credit card accounts (or freeze them) and close bank accounts so the feds can't get into your money. Am I correct? What would that entail?
I was thinking about that. We would have to figure this out, for any successful massive tax revolt to succeed. This action by the government could also spark some really dangerous emotions in people.
Good points - all of you! Thank you. I have to go now, to make some of that money going to the Feds. I hope for our nation and posterity that we are able to get beyond just talking about this, and get it done. I am afraid of more Oklahoma-style Reichstag fires by the criminals holding the government now, if the momentum continues in our court (which I think it is, despite the networks' most valiant efforts at propaganda). A Reichstag Fire is my biggest fear right now. All it would take is another looney white supremacist hooking up with an FBI provocateur, and some lies by the media pointing at constitutional militias, or just conservatives, and they will make great gains again. We have to fight, to avoid bloodshed or a police state. There WILL be sacrifices necessary. God grant us success in saving our peace, liberty, and order.
Good idea. Stick around.
Agreed, but while I make such payments, many do not and we need a tool for universal participation. One possibility is for one to temporarily increase the W4 exemptions to eliminate withholding for January then putting that money in a specially designated escrow acct.
if we establish and advertise an escrow account for withholding tax payments from fed government, are we guilty of some sort of crime - inciting criminal behavior or something?
BINGO!
Now what to do?HERE IS ADVICE FOR ANYBODY IN THE BUSH TEAM WHO MIGHT WANT TO USE IT:
Get one of your best spokespeople out front saying - you know, it looks to me as if Gore is going to do whatever it takes - cheat, lie, steal, destroy our country's rule of law - to win. Now why would he do this? For power - yes - but it seems to me THESE ARE THE ACTIONS OF A VERY DESPERATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND LEADERS AFRAID OF WHAT A BUSH LED JUSTICE DEPARTMENT MIGHT FIND ONCE THEY START PUTTING THEIR PEOPLE INTO POSITIONS WHERE THEY CAN DISCOVER POTENTIAL CRIMES OF THE CURRENT REGIME.
In other words - it looks to me as if the Clinton/Gore crooks are afraid of getting caught!!! THAT is why they are willing to trash this country in order to retain the control of all the federal investigative agencies! (which is what the Executive Branch controls).
Now who would be good to be sliding this into the conversations ??????
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An escrow account would be a very good idea.
The IRS has incredible powers and ability to tie up your assets for years - we can't operate on a cash basis nor should we have to do so!
Keep the faith!
Can't say; however it's a good question. Seems though that by simply increasing W4 exemptions is more likely to incur penalties.
All of this is fine. But if the court rules against us today, I am headed to Florida immediatley. You need to now stand and be heard. 500,000 people descending upon Talahasee would be a step in the right direction. This type of exposure could get the message of tax protest or anyother you might want-OUT. No one is going to give any of you a soap box tall enought to be heard. You have to sieze it, and the moment is upon us folks. It is time to truly sacrafice our own well being for the cause. Unlike the men and women who have died for freedom, our sacrafice would would be paltry in comparison. If it means you lose your job, you lose your job. If it means you are not home for the holidays with your family, than so be it.
The time has come to search your soul, and ask yourself: How important is this to me, my family, and Republic.
I will see you in Florida
My guess is less than twenty percent of the republicans would be moved enough by a gore steal to take any action. Therefore, no meaningful mass demonstration such as tax revolt or work shutdown would work. Half of the irate are seasoned citizens, and as mad as they are about this they are not the type to take to the streets. The important thing to remember is that only about fifteen percent of this nations citizens defeated the king of England when they were willing to sacrifice everything...
I am confused about what you are suggesting be done.
Bump for your message. I will be going to FL this week anyway. Where would you go - the capitol building?
If everyone will have guts, and do the right thing, and not chicken out or worry about whether everyone else is REALLY joining them, there will be too many of us in the protest for the IRS or anyone else to take on, and our action will be impossible to ignore at the same time.
This has been discussed recently here, and I again make the point that a tax revolt will not take effect without a big name leading it.
I offered James Dobson as a potential. Someone mentioned Rush, but he lacks the stones.
Any other nominations?
If Bush is allowed to win, we can probably go back to our homes, so to speak, and continue our struggle within the conservative camp
Plus
Also, regardless of who "wins", we must do something in each state to REFORM VOTING PROCEDURES to make cheating more difficult.
Absolutely we have to push to REFORM VOTING PROCEDURES. We have to require PHOTO ID, PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP, TAMPER-PROOF VOTING MACHINERY, AND A MANDATORY 10 YEARS FOR VOTER FRAUD. Among others.
If the DemocRATs lose this one they are going to be even more determined in two and four years. We've got to cut them off at the pass.
Public opinion...we take it to the streets. We make the "polls" say exactly what we want. Unlike a tax REVOLT it is completely legal.
If the DemocRATS steal our votes we certainly want those Dems in congress/senate worried like he** about their seats too. We have to re-educate the sheeple. We have to make them understand.
No more of this please. We do not want commercial ads on Free Republic.
I suggest that we ask the political affiliation of every person who we deal with and refuse to associate with "known socialists."
A question that this brings up is this: Then why are our current Republican reps quiet about all of this. They surely know about things like Brown, Foster et. al. ...are they handcuffed to skeletons by blackmail? Am I too cynical? Am I not cynical enough?
We will surely come back to this issue after Gore's persistence following this week's events, as it is a logical conclusion that can be drawn from their behavior.
I'm in. Just tell me where to NOT send my money......
Public opinion...we take it to the streets. We make the "polls" say exactly what we want. Unlike a tax REVOLT it is completely legal.
The tax revolt that has been proposed here in not at all illegal. Do some searching for the details, but the premise is jacking up your W-4 form deductions to the point that your employer deducts zero dollars. You set up an escrow account and put the money that would have been deducted in it, In April 15, file for an extension, and pay estimated owed tax at the sum of one dollar.
This would entail penalties for non-compliance, and I have not looked into the hit I would take, but it is a legal option.
But, again, it will only work if a big name gets behind it
What if we arrange for a big firm, i.e. Goldman Sachs to manage an escrow account. Sign up some big name talk radio hosts to advocate. Have a national sign up day with Freepers everywhere signing people up.
I think the beauty of this plan is that paying the money to one account achieves 2 things:
A) It will show a HUGE sum of money that will be GREAT for PR.
B) It will be seen as a more responsible, organized protest - not irresponsible anarchy. And if we lose the court battle, the money will be there, no harm to anyone, and we will have made our point.
I would not personally be willing to withhold unless this is set up.
What if we arrange for a big firm, i.e. Goldman Sachs to manage an escrow account. Sign up some big name talk radio hosts to advocate. Have a national sign up day with Freepers everywhere signing people up.
Sounds like a plan - and a different way to approach the difficulty of getting wide exposure.
Sounds to me like this is in compliance. Do you mean the estimated tax of $1.00 paid is not in compliance?
I believe you can file a second extension prior to the August deadline too.
Sounds to me like this is in compliance. Do you mean the estimated tax of $1.00 paid is not in compliance?
Wrong word on my part. There are penalties for not paying in advance and for underpayment of estimated tax owed.
BTW, I am not a tax professional, but have had some up close experience with the IRS.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
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