Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
Possibility of Electoral College defections raised
December 10, 2000
Web posted at: 3:32 PM EST (2032 GMT)
By CNN Writer Tom Watkins
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Even if Florida's 25 electoral votes go to Republican George W. Bush, that doesn't mean the election has been decided, said Mario Cuomo, the former Democratic governor of New York.
When the nation's 538 Electoral College representatives meet in their respective states to vote for president on December 18, independent moves by several of them could change the outcome, Cuomo told CNN's "Late Edition."
"If the Supreme Court were to beat Gore, there is no guarantee that three or four electors who were supposed to vote for Bush wouldn't turn around out of anger and confusion perhaps and say, 'We're going to go with Al Gore.' "
On the same program, Gore adviser and former Secretary of State Warren Christopher said the vice president would not attempt to persuade any electors to change their votes.
"The vice president has never said he would engage in that kind of activity, and I am sure he won't," Christopher said. "I think he'll discourage them."
"I take Secretary Christopher at his word," said John Sununu, President Bush's former chief of staff. "It's not going to happen, Mario. The Republicans are so angry at what they perceive is a gaming of the election by a Gore group that has decided to try and create unwarranted confusion in the process that the electors on the Republican side are not even leaning one iota towards this fairy-tale solution."
Gore's complicity is not needed for such an upset to occur, Cuomo said. The U.S. Supreme Court's stay Saturday of a Florida Supreme Court order to begin the hand count of disputed ballots could push a few electors to vote counter to their states' popular votes, he said.
In the 24 states that do not require electors to follow the popular vote, "it's also legitimate for them to vote their conscience," he said.
While rare, such actions are not unprecedented.
Simply allowing the hand count to finish would resolve the matter, he said. "Let the people of the world see what was in the ballots and apply the test of reasonableness to it," Cuomo pleaded.
"The votes have been counted, they have all been recounted, and in some cases counted a third time," Sununu responded. "The Supreme Court is going to tell the activist Florida Supreme Court they're not going to pick the winner of the president of the United States."
MAYBE they haven't flipped yet, but for the most prominent resident Democrat in NY (therefore excluding Hillary) to even broach the topic is WAY over the top, and to me indicates a degree of knowledge about the possibility that is greater than he lets on.
The delusional ones are those who think that active efforts to flip electors are not occurring, and that Gore wouldn't accept the flips if they ultimately occur.
Any elector that voted other than he is supposed had better have plenty of money to hire 24 hour a day security. That is a very dangerous thing. Some extremist will not take kindly to this slap in the face be they Gore electors or Bush electors. This is a very very dangerous game.
It would be unfortunate for any elector to vote other than his or her duty, as per the obligation of their state's election.
Very unfortunate.
Think about it. If you were one of those lucky enough to be an elector for W, would you be so easily swayed to flip to Gore? I don't think so. Is it possible Gore's goons are tyring to blackmail electors? Probably, but remember: all throughout the election cycle we were constantly told by the polls that the people who supported Bush were much more enthusiastic for him than those supporting Gore. And, you better believe they have gotten even more enthusiastic, as they've sat back and watched this sitting Vice President turn the Constitution on its ear, and try to overturn a national election. Bush electors will remain steadfast. But, if I were Gore, I would worry a little bit tonight about my own electors. Who is to say it won't work the other way? What if some of his electors are sick of and disgusted with him?
Are we surprised by this? It will not be over until George Bush is sworn in, but let's take one day at a time, with a mind to what further criminal acts the future will bring. I'm off to read the constitutional law on the electoral college vote before Congress....
no one would even consider flipping - unless of course they had some "dirty linen" from the past that the gore operatives may have brought to their attention......and on and on.......you know how they work it!
Has anyone even thought that maybe Gore electors just might jump and say hey I'm not going to take it any more, and vote for Bush.
Wouldn't that be something. I know I would just love to see.
Somehow, I don't see Bush electors switching. Republicans are generally a principled lot. I see a lot of Gore electors, being liberals, switching, though. Hey, if you can bribe these fools into voting with a pack of cigarettes, how do you think they would react with a wad of cash flashed before their very eyes.
It is time for the heads of each slate of electors to sit down in closed-door meetings and get an absolute blood oath pledge that none of the electors are going to switch. If they have second thoughts, let them recuse themselves and bring in the alternates.
Here is my scenario. Imagine a few electors on the way to their state capitols when they is run off the road and sent to the hospital in critical condition. Imagine that an alternate to whom no one has paid attention has been compromised, blackmailed or has his daughter kidnapped. The alternates step in and create history.
Were you the nut who sent the email to Rush? You my friend are very delusional if you don't think Bush and staff aren't in constant contact with these people. People who for the most part are well off and Bush contributors. They haven't the least bit of intention of going alligator fishing. So the will vote correctly.
No Republican will offer a Democrat $1 million and a convenient "disappearance" to flip. A Several Democrats (Flynt, Guccione, Lenzner, et al) would do the same in a hearbeat.
No Republican would threaten to out a Democrat's sex life, gayness, bankruptcies, business fraud, criminal record, etc. Several Democrats wouldn't give it a second thought.
Why wouldn't Gore Electors consider switching since there is a possibility of ballot box stuffing?
Conscience. Libs don't have one. Anything to win, means anything!
"If the Supreme Court were to beat Gore, there is no guarantee that three or four electors who were supposed to vote for Bush wouldn't turn around out of anger and confusion perhaps and say, 'We're going to go with Al Gore.' "
Yeah, right Mario, that's sooooooo likely!, you are delusional,
Either that or you are laying the smoke screen for Beckel's efforts to blackmail some of them.
What we need to accept is that there really isn't anything freepers can do about this.
I find it very unlikely that Bush, Cheney, Baker et al would have handled everything else so masterfully and let this possibility slip their minds.
We have to let them work this issue, as quietly as the Democrats may be doing so. There isn't anyone we can fax, and freeping outside the electors' homes would be worse than useless.
I do take some comfort in the knowledge that any elector who flips would probably have his/her dirty past aired much more quickly and thoroughly by an enraged GOP - and mark my words, they would be enraged by several orders of magnitude beyond the current level - than Beckel/Flynt could threaten to do.
And I also take some comfort that all the bad guys have to do is to try and fail, and have it made public once, to kill this trick.
No, I was not the "nut" who sent the e-mail to Rush, but the only thing "nutty" about the e-mail was the assumption that the flipping has already occurred. It is not nutty to think flip attempts are occurring.
For God's sake, can't you see that Mario Cuomo is greasing the skids for having us accept elector-flipping as a "normal part of the process in a close election" if it occurs? That means it's being attempted.
Also, see #10. If you're going to go after me as delusional, you're going to have to take down Juanita Broadderick's #1 defender, too (thanks, doug from upland).
Rush, are we still being paranoid?
An accusation of paranoia is often a symptom of pathological denial. In other words, there are too many armchair psychologists out there.
I don't know if it's true for sure or not,but I've read a couple posts in which it was stated that if an elector"switches" that Congress can take action.Any know if this is true or not? Thanks.
I agree, $1 million x 3 is a bargain for the US Presidency. Why not $10 million each? How many of us can honestly say we would turn down such a huge wad of cash, expecially if we were also being blackmailed?
"Cuomo pleaded.....Sununu responded"
Interesting choice of words evoking an image of a terribly wronged Cuomo on his knees before that heartless Republican Sununu. LOL.
Regards, Lenny
Faxes to Electors? Do the State's have a repository for Elector's incoming faxes? Do we now need to campaign them?
No, no, no please no. The Bush campaign is already in touch with the electors. Emotional faxes from freepers can't possibly help.
What are the odds that one out of 271 electors has one or more skeletons in his closet? There are already 271 FBI files in the hands of Gore operatives and they are being examined under a microscope. We are not through this yet. Remember who we are dealing with, the same people who built the Dixie Mafia into the most powerful crime syndicate in the world. You think swaying one or two electors is a big task for them. Tinfoil hat firmly in place.
I absolutely agree that this is very likely going on. Even though I do believe that the Republican electors are probably a very principled group, the Goron people are ruthless and could likely find a couple of skeletons in people's closets. My hope is that they wouldn't give in to the blackmail because they would know that if they did, the dirt would most likely surface in the after-math, because everyone would be looking into WHY they betrayed President Bush. Hopefully...
How many of us can honestly say we would turn down such a huge wad of cash, expecially if we were also being blackmailed?
Not a problem because it only takes ONE serious allegation from an elector and this could be voided and decided by Congress.
Which 24 states don't require electors to honor the state's popular vote? Is there a list somewhere?
Somehow, I don't see Bush electors switching. Republicans are generally a principled lot.
What if John McCain was an elector? Or Arlen Specter? I can imagine either one of them switching in the name of "principle" if it suited their purpose.
As much as I would like the be confident that our folks are principled and the system will work itself out, I won't completely stop worrying until 1/20/2001 at 12:01.
My hope is that any would-be faithless elector realizes that they'd be sued under the Civil Rights Act for every nickel they have.
My mother-in-law, a professor of Constitutional law, says that the odds of faithless electors are very slim. These electors are the party faithful, rewarded for years of service or contributions by the honor of being an elector. The Bush elector who received the death threats, for example, was the Chair of Bush's campaign in her state.
I know that in the states that do require them to vote for the winner all they get is a fine if they don't.
Just an aside: Notice the word "renegade" in the CNN link web address. The programmer must think elector-flipping is somehow heroic or romantice--UGH.
I wouldn't be too concerned about this. For one thing, an Elector who could be blackmailed would quickly find the "blackmailable action" out in the public. If the Dems can find it, any resourceful person can.
If an Elector switches you can bet that they will experience an anal exam like none seen before.
While a few Electors have switched in the past, they have mostly done so to send a particular message and their vote had no significance.
I have absolutely no source for this info other than what a friend told me he's heard....but he said that 25% of Dem electors are defecting from Gore.
Take it with a grain of salt, but it is fun to contemplate.
take it for what it's worth - I have heard rumors that there are a few gore electors who are thinking of jumping ship if it need be...
I guess I am not the only one who has a grape vine :)
There was an article in the local paper about Alaska's 3 electors. They have all been approached by persons who claim to be reporters. They were all asked if they knew that there was nothing to prevent their switching votes.
I love their response. They called their local papers and got it out in the open. Hard to bribe a person who won't cooperate.
Gore electors flipping (on their own without any outside influence)? Make my day! Don't think it's 25% of all of them, because penalties in some states are pretty severe.
let's make sure every LEGAL vote counts...
Highly unlikely, but theoretically possible.
perhaps we'll have an investigation into vote fraud when all is said and done :)
Consider this: Electors X, Y, and Z flip.
The first question on every Republican's mind will be "WTF?"
The enraged 'Pubbies will then spare no effort to find out the answer to "WTF?" The data would come out no matter what.
Blackmail only works if the data has a reasonable chance of remaining secret after the event in question--and this stuff wouldn't.
Didn't I read that if an elector "flips" his vote, the Congress has a right to reject the elector and replace him/her?
Watch out for the FSC 11th hour "end run". As it now stands, the "executive branch" has certified the Bush electors by certifying the election count; the "legislative branch" has NOT certified electors, yet. So, unless the "legislative branch" certifies it's own Bush electors prior to midnight, Dec. 12th, the present Bust electors are vulnerable.
The possible Gore end run: near 11:59 PM on Dec 12th, the FSC overturns either Lewis or Clark and throws out thousands of absentee ballots ON STRICT INTERPRETATION OF FLA. LEGISLATIVE STATUTES, thus NOT a federal issue. Plus, the "judicial branch" orders that their Gore set of electors be certified. There is no time to appeal, if an appeal would even be heard.
Unless the "legislative branch" has already certified THEIR set of electors, the "judicial branch" set of electors OVERRIDES the "executive branch's" certification of the election, which is NOT a certification of "legislative" electors.
what makes you think only republican elcetors will jump ship?
MAYBE they haven't flipped yet, but for the most prominent resident Democrat in NY (therefore excluding Hillary) to even broach the topic is WAY over the top He WAS a prominent resident Democrat in NY but is nothing but a has been and should be grateful to get some TV air time. His statements are of chicken little proportion, such as was made when he ran for re-election, predicting a black uprising if he was defeated. Hey Mario -- we're still waiting.
When the electors vote on Dec. 18th (I assume) will it be made public or must we endure the nerves until January? Anyone?
Don't know what Congress's alternatives would be if they wanted to reject a flipped elector.
I understand the FLSC doomsday scenario. Is there any chance the Legislature won't select an alternate set? I would think that even if SCOTUS rules in Bush's favor, if Martin and Seminole are still out there (or any of the probably 30-plus suits we never hear about), they'll go ahead with the alternate set anyway. Correct?
Trent Lott gave away the rules of the impeachment trial (blackmail, perhaps?) I think Rush is dead wrong for mocking those of us who are concerned about the Dems endgame strategy.
Cuomo...Cuomo...Is he the guy with the formidable Dem machine in New York who was not going to let the wife of an impeached rapist stink-ball the Senate? Or Cuomo the Eunuch?
See my post #47. No one thought that Trent Lott would prove to be a turncoat. But that is precisely what happened.
I tend to agree that you are correct. And, "gotchas" are the liberals' favorite ways of USING the "rule of law", so to speak.
I think you are paranoid. First of all, unless the Bush electors actually vote for GORE and no one else, it will go to the House, and Bush will win. It's much more likely that they'd register their protest by voting for McCain or someone else.
That said, don't be surprised if Bill Bradley or Ralph Nader gets a couple votes on Dec. 18.
Unless the "legislative branch" has already certified THEIR set of electors, the "judicial branch" set of electors OVERRIDES the "executive branch's" certification of the election, which is NOT a certification of "legislative" electors.
not really, if there are two sets of electors, the houses of congress may contest. If neither set wins in both houses, then the set that is SIGNED BY THE STATE'S EXECUTIVE is the winner, or so the Constitution says. So, since there is already one set of electors certified by Florida, and SIGNED BY JEB BUSH, that set will win.
Don't go too far overboard on this. Yes the possibility is their but think twice, The individuals that are the electors are just that because they believe in Bush just as much as you or I. So ask your self after all this would you change your vote for gore? My answer is no way as a matter of fact I wonder if any gore electors might abstain. P.S. My guess is 7-2 or 9-0 BUSH favor when the US Supreme Court is done...
Does anybody know if electors cast their ballots in secret? If it's open ballot in their state meeting, any electors attempting to defect could find themselves hospitalized and replaced before the ballot could hit the box
Just some dumb questions:
do electors names have to be made public? {too late for THIS election, I know}
Is it possible to replace an elector after certificatiom? Say for instance an elector was being blackmailed or threatened and asked the Fla. leg to replace him.
One flipped elector won't do it.
If you flipped your vote, where would you plan to live the rest of your life? Will you happily return to your state of residence? What kind of welcome might you receive from the majority of voters in your home state? How do you think history books will record your actions? Do you want to be listed as one of the most notorious traitors of American history?
Somehow, I don't see Bush electors switching
Agreed. There have been occasional electors who have not voted for the candidate they're pledged to, but I cannot recall an instance where an elector pledged to one of the major party candidates switched his/her vote to the other major party's candidate.
Going back, the wayward electors have been more along these lines: 1988, one Dukakis elector votes for Bentsen. 1976, one Ford elector votes for Reagan. 1972, one Nixon elector votes for the Libertarian. You didn't see a Dukakis elector voting for Bush, or a Ford elector voting for Carter, or a Nixon elector voting for McGovern.
Gore's best hope with the Electoral College would be 2+ Bush electors voting for someone like Colin Powell or somehow abstaining (if that's possible). There's no indication that loyal Republican activists would switch to vote for someone who has demonized Republicans the way Al Gore has. But while two "other" votes keeps Bush from the magic 270, all it really does is throw the election to the House, where the GOP controls 28 delegations and has the pledge of a 29th (North Dakota). Bush still wins.
Shortly after election day, when I mistakenly thought that Bush's Electoral College margin was going to be only a single vote instead of three, I seriously considered the possibility that an Elector could "flip" during the actual voting, too late for anyone to do anything about it. Since then I've realized that the probability is close to zero:
See #47.
It is perfectly legal in a number states (can't remember how many) for an elector to switch their vote. I would imagine that action could only be taken against an elector if he violated the law in a state that said you must vote for the party that won.
Does anyone have a list (or know where one is) of the states and their laws regarding electoral votes?
Thank you for your investigatory, etc. work. I feel better, but I'd feel a LOT better if there weren't valid stories of elector-flipping efforts (e.g., Bob Beckel), prominent politicians advocating it (OK, Mario isn't REALLY prominent anymore, but he gets microphones whenever he wants), and lib news media types clearly believing it would be a good idea (because Al "won" the popular vote).
Your post is a good-enough reason to get off this forum for a while, so my work doesn't suffer any more than it already has. FReep on.
Did the democrap who wrote this propaganda ever consider the defections would go to BUSH?
It would be a riot to see just one of the electors have Mr. Becker arrested for blackmail. That's what I would do if he tried to blackmail me. Everyone has something in their life they would just as soon keep secret, but I don't think any secret is worth letting someone blackmail you. I'd just say, 'out with it' and take your turn in jail.
Do Electors cast their votes anonymously?
Mario Cuomo has been hoping for a seat on the Supreme Court since the 80's. He's getting too old to be considered should a Democrat not be elected until 2004.
During the entire history of US presidential elections there have only been about three electors who did not vote for the candidate to whom they were sworn, atleast on the first ballot.
In the past thity or forty years, only one elector has noted for someone else.
Remember the people who are selected to be electors are solid, party regulars. They are not going to swtich their vote. While anything is possible, I think Al Gore stands a greater chance of being hit by lightning than of gettting three Republican electors to vote for him.
>>no one would even consider flipping - unless of course they had some "dirty linen" from the past that the gore operatives may have brought to their attention......and on and on.......you know how they work it!<<
Or maybe having it suggested to them that the IRS COULD decide to audit not only them,but their extended families all the way out to cousins. Other suggestions might be,"How would your college-age child who is about to graduate react to being arrested for felony drug possession/distribution charges?". It doesn't matter if the charges are dropped a year from now,the family is bankrupt and the kid has a arrest record.
This doesn't even enter into things like offering free operations or medical care to sick relatives,positions offered on corporate boards to spouses,partnerships offered in successful businesses,etc,etc,etc.
>> Hey, if you can bribe these fools into voting with a pack of cigarettes, how do you think they would react with a wad of cash flashed before their very eyes. <<
Forget that. THESE Dims ain't homeless drunks/crackheads. They live in mansions and drive Mercedes.
Rush also said we didn't need a Special Session of the Florida Legislature.If so why are they ready. Anyone know who Rush really works for?
>>Either that or you are laying the smoke screen for Beckel's efforts to blackmail some of them.<<
Of course he is. This is the standard Dim tactic. They get prominent Dims not directly connected to the action that is going to happen to talk about it publicly,and by the time it actually happens,people are no longer shocked by it. it's "Old News".
As another FReeper has already noted. IF there was any truth to this story, the DemonRATs would not be broadcasting it far and wide. Frankly, I think Gore has more to worry about than Bush.
>>I don't know if it's true for sure or not,but I've read a couple posts in which it was stated that if an elector"switches" that Congress can take action.Any know if this is true or not? Thanks.<<
Yes,Congress can refuse to certify the EC votes if they suspect corruption. They can then place either Bush or Hasert in office as President.
BTW,THIS is why I am trying to organize a march on DC on 5-6 Jan to demand Congress not allow Goober to steal the election. There are at least 3 threads on FR about this. It looks to me like most of you aren't passing this information on to others. Click on my screen name and find these threads in my bookmarks.
If there's one thing we should have learned in the past 8 years it's this: When the Dems and media all start regurgitating the same verbatim talking point day after day after day, it's certain that they are telegraphing future behavior. Right now the two biggies are:
1) Electors may "flip"
2) The media will make FOIA requests to "count" the Florida ballots and inform the rest of us dummies who "really won the presidency."
IMHO, we would be wise to pay attention to their blatherings and strategize accordingly.
I agree, $1 million x 3 is a bargain for the US Presidency. Why not $10 million each? How many of us can honestly say we would turn down such a huge wad of cash, expecially if we were also being blackmailed?
I would turn it down in a heartbeat. And then report the attempted blackmail far and wide.