By JOHN HOPKINS
© 2001, The Virginian-Pilot
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Customer won't be charged for killing teen-age robber
By JOHN HOPKINS
© 2001,
The Virginian-Pilot
PORTSMOUTH -- A Portsmouth man who shot and killed an 18-year-old robber of an Alcoholic Beverage Control Store in Churchland on Dec. 22 was justified in his actions, according to the Commonwealth's Attorney.
The 41-year-old man was a customer in the store when Neshion N. Claiborne of Suffolk entered the store with a gun about 6 p.m., ordered six customers to the floor and made store employees fill a bag with cash, prosecutors said. The customer, who has legal permission to carry a concealed weapon, shot the teen several times as he headed towards the door with the money.
Commonwealth's Attorney Martin Bullock, after reviewing the case and store videotape, said he believed the customer was ``reasonably'' under the opinion that he may be ``killed or seriously injured by the robber as he was fleeing the store with the money.''
``The customer who shot and killed the gunman who was robbing this ABC store, killed the robber in self-defense,'' Bullock said Wednesday at a news conference. ``And therefore, the killing was a justifiable homicide. The customer will not be charged with killing Neshion Claiborne. I repeat, the customer will not be charged with killing Neshion Claiborne.''
The teen robber was shot several times in the back and several times in the front, Bullock said. The teen's mother, Gloria Copeland of Suffolk, said Wednesday her son was shot at least eight times.
``That's the wrong way for anybody to pay for a crime,'' she said, crying. ``It was wrong. God knows it's not right. You don't want to know my feelings. Lord knows you don't want to know my feelings.''
The armed customer, crouching near a counter and fearing for his safety, fired first after making eye contact with the robber, Bullock said. The customer was not going to ``wait to be shot,'' Bullock said.
The teen returned one shot that came within 18 inches of the armed customer and another person, Bullock said.
It appears that some shots were fired at the teen after he was outside the door.
``We do know that some shots were fired through the door,'' Bullock said. ``But our belief is that as he was falling out the door, the customer continued to shoot.''
Police dispatched to the robbery found Claiborne's body and stolen money outside of the store, prosecutors said. Results of an autopsy were not available Wednesday.
Police and prosecutors are not releasing the customer's identity or the videotape of the robbery. The customer has declined to speak about the shooting.
Bullock said the man was ``extremely sorry'' that he went into the store that day and extended his prayers to the family of the teen.
Police said the investigation is ongoing and that there may be others involved in the robbery. Because of the investigation, they are not releasing some details and video of the robbery.
At the time of the holdup, there were six employees inside the store. They all complied with the robber's demands and escaped physical harm, Bullock said.
Claiborne was buried Sunday, said Madelyn Mizell, his aunt. He was the father of a 6-month-old son. Mizell said she doesn't believe police or prosecutors' version of events that evening.
``He was shot down in cold blood and it's not right,'' Mizell said. ``Why did he shoot him so many times? . . . That's not justice.
``He was shot in the back. Self defense? How can they let this man go when he was shot in the back? That ain't self defense. That's murder.''
Philip Van Cleave, vice president of Virginia Citizens Defense League, said it's difficult to second-guess the customer's actions when he faced a life-or-death situation.
``A lot of us walk around with the fear of just this happening,'' he said. ``People cheer when the bad guy loses. And that's the bad guy losing. Especially in Virginia, where people hold the rights of a law-abiding citizen above the rights of a felon.''
Virginia Citizens Defense League is a grass-roots, pro-gun organization formed in 1994 to change concealed weapon laws in the state. There are nearly 100,000 Virginia residents with permits to carry concealed weapons, Cleave said.
Portsmouth's shooting is one of many cases across the country of law-abiding citizens defending themselves, he said.
``It sends a very strong message to the criminals not to do this,'' he said. ``They now know they're playing Russian roulette. Any one of these people could be private citizens carrying a concealed weapon. . . .
``He took his chances and he lost.''
Reach John Hopkins at 446-2793 or jhopkins@pilotonline.com
Wah ! The poor robber! Sob ! I've heard conflicting accounts as to how many shots hit the punk, the local radio station gave a completely different account.
The VA. Pravda is a rabid anti-gun rag though.
I say good shooting to the citizen that ridded the local community of yet another parasite.
Unfortunately though, yesterday morning, a clerk at a convenience store in the same town was shot & killed
``That's the wrong way for anybody to pay for a crime,'' she said, crying. ``It was wrong. God knows it's not right. You don't want to know my feelings. Lord knows you don't want to know my feelings.''
Just maybe she should have taught her son the difference between right and wrong.
"Why did he shoot him so many times? . . . "
Nervous twitch on the trigger.
I'd be interested to see if the two holdups are related and surprised if the media reported it if they are. It is sad to see a mother lose her son, but perhaps she should have done a better job of explaining the risks pointing a gun at people. A lot of us do not take kindly to that and are prepared to react in just this fashion. For too long we have been told to submit and give them what they want. I think this type of response, far from being vigilantism, will do a lot to bring these armed robberies to an end. As for him being shot too many times...like Dirty Harry says, "...in all the excitement, I don't know if I fired 5 times or 6...". You just keep firing until the threat is stopped. Dead or otherwise.
Why did it take the customer so many shots?
If I were the judge, I would sentence him to a couple of shooting lessons at a local range. Next time, he won't need so many shots.
I tend to appreciate William Johnstone's philosophy -- when you make the conscious decision to embark upon a criminal course of conduct, you give up any and all rights vis a vis your intended victims. If the cops get there first, that's fine -- they have to abide by constitutional restrictions in order to prevent the state from usurping too much control over the lives of private citizens. But when the state is not around, the citizens have a moral and ethical responsibility to ensure that someone who is committing a violent crime will not harm any law abiding citizen. No one should ever be allowed to second guess whether a law abiding citizen was correct in pulling the trigger.
It's harsh for the boy's mother, but he made the decision to put all the employees' and customers' lives in danger, and he showed a willingness -- by walking into that store armed -- to kill someone for a bag of cash. That's what's not right, and you don't even want to know my feelings about any a$$(^%# who would dare to threaten any innocent person for his pathetic greed.
bold off
The customer, who has legal permission to carry a concealed weapon, shot the teen several times as he headed towards the door with the money.
To me, the Second Amendment guarantees every law abiding citizen in America legal permission to carry.
Results of an autopsy were not available Wednesday.
Lead poisoning, perhaps?
``People cheer when the bad guy loses. And that's the bad guy losing. Especially in Virginia, where people hold the rights of a law-abiding citizen above the rights of a felon.''
If the fine citizens of the District of Columbia want congressional representation, they need to become a city in Maryland.
Sounds like Virginians won't tolerate their nonsense.
"He took his chances and he lost." What a line!
Philip is a friend of mine and a great guy. He's also handling VCDL activities in the Richmond, Virginia region.
Too bad the thug had time to reproduce!
You don't want to know my feelings. Lord knows you don't want to know my feelings.
We do, however, want to know why you failed to impress upon your son that he should not steal.
I agree with you, good riddance to the scumbag.
Notice how many times the article mentions the word "Teen" as if this punk was some grade-schooler. He was an adult that made his own decisions, obviously bad ones.
Nice shooting by the CHL holder.
The teen robber was shot several times in the back and several times in the front, Bullock said. The teen's mother, Gloria Copeland of Suffolk, said Wednesday her son was shot at least eight times.
Sounds to me like the good guy needs to go up in caliber. Not bad shooting though, to make 8 hits in that kind of stressful situation.
"Why did it take the customer so many shots? If I were the judge, I would sentence him to a couple of shooting lessons at a local range. Next time, he won't need so many shots."
He was probably using a small caliber handgun. I'd sentence him to an upgrade. After all, he hit what he was shooting at.
Very well said. I am standing and cheering. This is bad news for the mother, and I cannot blame her for whatever her feelings are right now. Hopefully later she will have a more lucid moment and the sad truth will hit her. In the meantime, society has one less threat to her citizens.
Glad to see we have one less criminal on the streets.
Nice shooting, yes. Unfortunately he'll probably have to defend himself in a civil wrongful death suit now. Just about every liberal media outlet in that area is screaming that the mother of this "poor misunderstood dead teen" should sue...
....Great replies - all ! #6 should be emblazoned in law-school textbooks.
This punk will end up on the "killed with a firearm" BATF list pushing for confiscation of personal firearms.
That was good shooting under the circumstances. The good guys win one!
I sure hope some organization and people get behind this guy with cash and expertise to support his case in court. Don't want to lose this one!
You don't want to know my feelings. Lord knows you don't want to know my feelings.
What does the Lord feel about your sons feelings about stealing. Jesus describes thieves as those who only want to steak and destroy. Killing is built into the bible definition of thievery. A Christian should not be willing to kill for a bag of money but in the heat of armed robbery I think the Lord may impose quite a penalty on the perp through the Christian.
The good news is that the 6-month old son won't have to grow up with a poor excuse for a father. The bad news; we will be supporting the son on Social Security for the next 17 1/2 years.
"Why did he shoot him so many times? . . . "
Answer: To make sure he was dead (no longer a threat).
Maybe she needed to put a belt on that boy's butt when he was younger and acting out his antisocial behaviour.
God knows when your 18, it's real easy to do stupid things, but fear of a belt when your younger can be a strong influence when you're making choices later in life at the age of 18.
Well... I guess that Neshion the felon won't be voting democrat from jail.
Well... I guess that Neshion the felon won't be voting democrat from jail.
Yes, but being dead has never stopped democrats from voting before.
I guess that Neshion the felon won't be voting democrat from jail.
No -- he'll vote Democrat from the graveyard.
This punk will end up on the "killed with a firearm" BATF list pushing for confiscation of personal firearms.
Not only that, but he will be another 'child under 19 killed with a handgun' statistic.
Well... I guess that Neshion the felon won't be voting democrat from jail.
We don't know that for sure. He may still vote as a dead person.
>> Not bad shooting though, to make 8 hits in that kind of stressful situation. <<
Especially when you consider all the reports of cops emptying 15 round mags and not hitting with any of the shots.
Anybody know what he was shooting?
>> The bad news; we will be supporting the son on Social Security for the next 17 1/2 years. <<
AND that the same people who "raised" his father will be "rasining" him,and will be whispering in his ear about how "the white man murdered your father when you were just a baby.". Count on it.
Something else. Why isn't anyone asking where this 18 year old got the handgun he was using in the armed robbery,and why isn't his previous criminal record (and you KNOW he has one!) being written about in the paper?
Poor baby......well, that's what happens when you start pointing loaded guns (hell, even if it wasn't loaded there isn't a sign on the gun that says so) at people. I don't have much sympathy for anyone who gets shot when they point a gun at another person, with a few exceptions....
Unfortunately, you are correct. He will be in the second fight for his life because the mother and the media will not accept the truth of the situation. The CHL holder that shot the criminal probably saved someones life in the not too distant future by ending the criminals career.
I have read several articles on self-defense by such people as Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor. One of the points that they make in these articles is that police marksmanship has actually gone down since the introduction of the high-cap semi-auto duty gun. Seems that when the revolver was king, and you knew that you only had six before a reload, you made them count.
Don't know what cartidge the CHL holder was shooting, but my guess from the number of rounds shot and the number of hits taken is that it is the 9mm Para.
Good shoot.
Use a gun, go to Hell. It's the law.
"Why did he shoot him so many times? . .
Because the magazine wasn't empty.
killed with a firearm" BATF list pushing for confiscation of personal firearms
It's "W's" BATF in a few more days, maybe he will put a stop to that BS.
How big was the pattern?
How big was the pattern?
I assume you mean "group", not "pattern"?
Well I hate to say it. Cops have been doing it a long time...."make sure he can't sue."
Sorry, my mistake. Just had a brain f**t.
Bump! Hooray for concealed carry . . .
"Why did he shoot him so many times? . . . "
If you are shooting someone to save your life is it not obvious that they are going to get more then one bullet? What are you going to fire once and wait and see how effective it was???
Good shooting.
``It was wrong. God knows it's not right. You don't want to know my feelings. Lord knows you don't want to know my feelings.''
Bad things happen to people who act badly. Religious morality is really a KINDNESS, which everyone ought to pay attention to. If the perp had heeded the Commandment against stealing, he might be alive right now. As it is, he heeded the moral-liberal message of selfishness, hedonism, and disregard for society's member's rights, and he's facing his judgment now instead.
>>I have read several articles on self-defense by such people as Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor.>>
My wife and I had the privilege of training under Chuck Taylor, he's a wonderful teacher and speaker.
It's too bad that this CCW-holder will probably have to spend money on a lawyer for a civil suit. The good news is that any right-thinking jury will dismiss. The bad news is how do you make sure you get a right-thinking jury?
Maybe she needed to put a belt on that boy's butt when he was younger and acting out his antisocial behaviour.
I think that's actually a crime now. You'd probably be put up on child abuse charges.
How big was the pattern?
I don't think he was toting a concealed shotgun.
And where are the touching pictures of the family of the man who successfully defended himself against an armed felon?
And where are the touching pictures of the family of the man who successfully defended himself against an armed felon?
And where are the touching pictures of the family of the man who successfully defended himself against an armed felon?
And where are the touching pictures of the family of the man who successfully defended himself against an armed felon?
Don't know what cartidge the CHL holder was shooting, but my guess from the number of rounds shot and the number of hits taken is that it is the 9mm Para.
Is 9mm not adequate? How about with hollow points? In the next couple of months I'm gonna get my first handgun and I want something compact to fit my hand well. I'm thinking of a H&K .40S&W Compact or .45 Compact. Suggestions?
One more of the 13 innocent children killed by handgun violence every day. Sniff. Weep.
< /sarcasm >
Just maybe she should have taught her son the difference between right and wrong.
That was my thought exactly! The day after this happened the local news, Channel 13 WVEC, for the Tidewater contingent, carried the story from the angle that this kid was the victim and the customer a depraved gun wielding maniac. They interviewed the robber's father and he was asying that the only reason he robbed the place was to get money for his baby and nobody should get killed trying to get money for their kids!!!
If she sues, then the "customer/shooter" should COUNTER SUE her for FAILING to teach/raise a MORAL child; and for the mental stress/anguish he must now endure because he was forced to shoot her criminal son to defend himself and the other customers. We conservatives need to learn to turn the tables on them. I'm sure the lawyer the "customer" must now hire will be willing to counter sue the punk's mom.
nobody should get killed trying to get money for their kids!!!
Rule of etiquette #42: Always ask the robber what he wants the money for before blowing his stupid brains out!!
See #44.
Here's the caption from the picture above as written by the Ministry of Truth:
Ronnel Devett Copeland Jr. holds his 6-month-old grandson Nevett Claiborne Jr. Ronnels son, Neshion, was killed during a ABC store robbery in Portsmouth.
Here is how it should be written:
Ronnel Devett Copeland Jr. holds his 6-month-old grandson Nevett Claiborne Jr. Ronnels son, Neshion, was killed while committing an armed robbery at an ABC store in Portsmouth.
"They interviewed the robber's father and he was asying that the only reason he robbed the place was to get money for his baby and nobody should get killed trying to get money for their kids!!!"
Absolute tripe. Kids or no kids--armed robbery is unacceptable, and the contemptible little twerp got his just desserts.
If his kid needed help, he should have called "Social Services".
I'd be interested to see if the two holdups are related and surprised if the media reported it if they are.
Even if they weren't, the odds are that the robber would have killed someone eventually. The fact that you walk into a store to rob it, and you have a gun, strongly implies that you will shoot if you don't get what you want.
The CCW holder probably saved one or more lives over the long run
And where are the touching pictures of the family of the man who successfully defended himself against an armed felon?
I would have been very upset if they put pictures of my family in the paper if I had done a self-defense shooting against a punk.
You will notice they didn't release the name of the CCW holder. Don't you think the punk has friends who might be interested paying a surprise visit to the citizen and/or his family?
The two choices you mention are great guns, and in good calibers in my opinion. I personally carry a Kahr K-40 Covert in 40S&W. It only holds six rounds but it is small enough so I don't have an excuse not to carry it. I use a Ruger GP-100 .357mag and a Rem. 870 12ga. riot gun for home defense. I shouldn't say "use" because I've never had to use them for that but you know what I mean.
In my opinion, from what I have read and from my own chronograph and penetration test, the 9mm Para. and the 38Spl. are minimum calibers. Actually, the 9mm is probably better than the 38 Spl. in the lighter weight bullets (95gr. - 125gr.). Neither cartridge has a sterling record for bringing fights to a quick end.
Remember this though, it doesn't matter what you shoot at them with if you don't hit them in a vital spot. If you shoot and miss with a shotgun, and shoot and hit center mass with a 22LR., the 22LR will do a better job.
I wondered the same thing. Where did the robber obtain the gun? Purchased? Stolen? Trigger lock? (Obviously not)
The libs are always quick to point out ownership in a firearm mishap that occurs in a home.
As far a for the use of "teen", I have a suspect he was "unemployed, which I find odd, as the press will usually state a persons occupation. I suppose "robber" will have to suffice.
The shooter has declined to be interviewed or photographed, so what he was packing might never be known.
The local radio station said the robber had been hit 3 times, the last, (and fatal?), was when the robber, (now wounded and on the ground), attempted to reach for his gun.
I bet this robber won't do it again.
The teen's mother, Gloria Copeland of Suffolk, said Wednesday her son was shot at least eight times.
Golly gee. We need to let the family of criminals decide now how their darling babies must be prevented from mugging, holdups and burglaries.
This criminal's mistake was using a gun. The new rule is if they don't have a gun, and can outrun the cops, they are home free...
I was curious about that aspect of the Social(ist) Security issue.
I think that in this case, since "poppa" was dusted in the act of commiting a violent ,(gasp) he used a gun) crime, any payment of public funds should be null and void.
Funny story that happened in my old hometown many years ago. One night two young punks entered a convenience store, held the cashier up with a gun, and made off with the bag of money he was putting together for the night deposit.
As they were running out the door, he grabbed his shotgun, went to the door and shot the guy with the moneybag in the back, killing him. He cooly walked outside, picked up his money, went in and phoned the cops, telling them "there's a damned kid laying dead in front of my store," locked up and went home.
This punk will end up on the "killed with a firearm" BATF list pushing for confiscation of personal firearms.
Aw s**t!
I forgot about that.
One of the 16 darlin' children killed by those nasty firearms today.
Shocking! Shocking!
The new rule is if they don't have a gun, and can outrun the cops, they are home free...
As long as they get past CCW citizens who are sick of letting the crooks run the show.
The shooter was black, I know this only due to the local tv and radio accounts.
That is why the Pravda doesn't mention this.
Believe me, if the shooter had been anything but black, they would have played it up.
Believe me, if the shooter had been anything but black, they would have played it up.
Here on Free Republic we have no such problem.
Doesn't matter what the perp's race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation or handicap is...
"Why did he shoot him so many times? . . . "
Every time you are at the range, some time MUST be used in emptying your weapon into the sillouette. You never know how your target will respond. He cannot shoot accurate when bullets are penetrating his felonious body. A .38 cal is not a weapon that stops a criminal. If you hit him in the head or heart, he MAY not get off a shot. Why take the chance? Bullets are cheap, YOUR LIFE IS PRICELESS, his life is worthless.
A good weapon for close dirtbag elimination is a 5 shot .44 cal revolver. This will inflict massive trauma and knock down force.
Thanks for the reply. For home defense I have an H&K Fabarm FP6 12 Guage Shotgun with carbon fibre heat shield. I added a magazine extender and folding stock to it. I also have a romanian AK-47 on stand-by for the revolution ;)
I would have been very upset if they put pictures of my family in the paper if I had done a self-defense shooting against a punk.
You will notice they didn't release the name of the CCW holder. Don't you think the punk has friends who might be interested paying a surprise visit to the citizen and/or his family?
Good point. I was sufficiently irritated by the obvious attempts to elicit sympathy for the perp that I didn't think it through.
I want something compact to fit my hand well. I'm thinking of a H&K .40S&W Compact or .45 Compact. Suggestions?
I have a Glock G30 .45 cal. My hands aren't large and it is a nice fit. 10 round clip. A .45 hollowpoint has excellent stopping power. Practice regularly.
Rem. 870 12ga. riot gun
hehe, you never know when you might have a riot on your hands!
Won't the .45 have some recoil in a compact gun? I'm hopeing that the .40 would have a bit less, I'll probably rent a few before I make my decision. Thanks for the reply.
Bullock said the man was ``extremely sorry'' that he went into the store that day and extended his prayers to the family of the teen.
he is sorry because these bloodsuckers will now sue him for wrongful death of po lil po boy- - THIS F@@@@IN COWARD PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SHOT ONE OR MORE PEOPLE BEFORE EXITING - as most convenience store robbers do.
I just upgraded from a 9mm to .40. Mucho more stopping power. I bought the same model gun - S&W sigma - used, so S&W won't get any of my bucks.
There's no such thing though as "One shot, One kill" with a handgun unless you get a head shot. Even if mortally wounded a perp has 15-30 seconds of useful consciousness in which to fight back.
Won't the .45 have some recoil in a compact gun
the recoil is proportional to the knockdown power- dont worry about the recoil- GO FOR the KNOCKDOWN POWER.
"Why did he shoot him so many times? . . . "
ooooops, bad disconnector, will replace it ASAP.....
Keep the faith
Greg
"One shot, One kill" with a handgun unless you get a head shot
BINGO
1 st shot ALWAYS- FOR THE HEAD, second one, into the body on the floor(to be sure)
Recoil isn't a whole lot more more than a lightweight .40. The Glock is fairly heavy for a compact.
My son-in-law bought the same .40 new last year (before the boycott). Finally got rid of it. Right out of the box it misfired and double fired. He had it worked on and it still had the same problem. I'd fire lots of ammo through it to test it's dependability.
What am I supposed to do for the CRIMINAL? Cry? Poor him, why'd he have to be shot while threatening to shoot people? Boo hoo! So of course, the first thing we see is the picture of the nice young CRIMINAL, smiling.
Oh, the hero won't be charged? Gee, thanks so much for your leniency.
If you want true one shot capability in a lightweight concealable package, this is it:
I really hope so but I doubt it. It's the UN policy that they're following. Maybe he will reailze that Yankees consider our guns are as needed as our teeth.
Something else. Why isn't anyone asking where this 18 year old got the handgun he was using in the armed robbery,and why isn't his previous criminal record (and you KNOW he has one!) being written about in the paper?
Pete, I think we all know the answer to that. The color of his skin determines these factors you mentioned.
It depends on how tall and what body frame you have. I'm thin and carry a Model 36 .38 Special when (I need to). What is your nature under serious pressure, are you calm or excitable ?
"Why did he shoot him so many times? . . . "
Ran out of ammo?
>> I'm thinking of a H&K .40S&W Compact or .45 Compact. Suggestions?<<
My suggestion is to forget the autoloaders and get a .357 Magnun revolver in stainless steel with a 4 inch barrell.
If your heart is absolutely set on a compact autoloader (the hardest to shoot and the most complicated to operate for a gun "newbie")forget anything above 9mm. Chances are you won't shoot it well,and no matter how "effective" the cartgidge is you are shooting,if you can't hit your target with it it's useless. Please notice this robber DID assume room temperature,even if he WAS shot with a 9mm.
At any rate,forget a S&W autoloader for two reasons. One is that I have never had one that was accurate worth a damn,despite them feeling so "good" in my hand. The other reason is we are having a boycott on all S&W firearms.
If you HAVE to have a "compact" autoloader,stick with something like a Kahr in 9mm,or if you can stand a slightly larger handgun,a Makarov in 9mm Makarov. Do NOT even bother with a autoloader unless you KNOW you WILL carry it with a round chambered. BS me all you want,but don't BS yourself on this. If you ever need a handgun,you need it NOW. Chances are you won't have either the time OR the proper frame of mind to chamber a round if push comes to shove.
" I guess that Neshion the felon won't be voting democrat from jail."
That's OK, the local Democratic committee will appoint a Proxy to keep voting for him ;-)
Live by the sword die by the sword... expect no quarter or no pity for being killed while executing a crime and threatening the lives of others.
It depends on how tall and what body frame you have. I'm thin and carry a Model 36 .38 Special when (I need to). What is your nature under serious pressure, are you calm or excitable ?
I'm 5'10" and stocky, and while I've never been in any firefights or similar situations, from situations I have been in while driving and flying small planes, I tend to keep a cool head under pressure.
#70 You may be right about that issue. Also I'm guessing he was unemployed at the time and maybe never employed at all, so maybe the child doesn't qualify for Soc. Sec.
Is 9mm not adequate? How about with hollow points? In the next couple of months I'm gonna get my first handgun and I want something compact to fit my hand well. I'm thinking of a H&K .40S&W Compact or .45 Compact. Suggestions?
9mm is certainly better than nothing. Personally, I carry a .40 Sig Sauer P229. Much more go power.
>>They interviewed the robber's father and he was asying that the only reason he robbed the place was to get money for his baby and nobody should get killed trying to get money for their kids!!!<<
You DO know that Channel 13 is owned by the Reverend Bishop Willis,don't you? He is the Tidewater version of JJ,but with more money and a LOT lower profile. Some say he is a "king maker" in local Dim politics in that area. He MAY be one of the richest people in that area of the country. He got a govt grant to buy the first "album rock" radio station up there in the early 70's,and his first move was to fire ALL the white people who worked there except for the janitor. He turned it into "urban contemperary" format,and hired all black DJ's.I remember seeing the full-page ad he bought in the Virginian Pilot that announced the new station ownership,and it had the photos of all the station employees,including the white janitor. This is only one of about 14 radio stations he owns.
He even opened his own bank 10 years or so ago with a "minority grant",and it didn't last a year before it was closed down due to poor record keeping and lost deposits. At least that was the rumor I heard. I DO know it closed and went out of business. I'm not sure,but I don't think he or anyone else was ever charged,either. The feds just paid the people who lost money out of the fed insurance program,and walked away. He also owns/owned a lot of property on and around the Outer Banks of NC,including ocean front property in the Nags Head and Hatteras area. I had a friend who bought some lots from Willis in the mid-70's to build houses on.
Willis used to have and may still have (I don't know) a Sunday morning church tv show. This was were he got his financial start,and it probably where all the money came from that bought the property.
#32 You don't think these people will see the error of their way and raise this child better! :-( (sarcasm)
Jiminy! Didn't I see Han Solo carrying one of those in Star Wars?
>>If she sues, then the "customer/shooter" should COUNTER SUE her for FAILING to teach/raise a MORAL child; and for the mental stress/anguish he must now endure because he was forced to shoot her criminal son to defend himself and the other customers. We conservatives need to learn to turn the tables on them. I'm sure the lawyer the "customer" must now hire will be willing to counter sue the punk's mom.<<
He won't sue because it would cost him more than he could ever hope to gain. What's he going to get,her welfare money or food stamps? Meanwhile,the NAACP will get a lawyer to represent her for free,and the taxpayers will pay her lawyer's fees.
>>Ronnel Devett Copeland Jr. holds his 6-month-old grandson Nevett Claiborne Jr. Ronnels son, Neshion, was killed while committing an armed robbery at an ABC store in Portsmouth. <<
How can that baby be a junior when his dead father was named "Neshion",and HIS name is "Nevett"?
BTW,where the HELL do they get these names from?
If your heart is absolutely set on a compact autoloader (the hardest to shoot and the most complicated to operate for a gun "newbie")
I enjoy shooting and don't mind spending time at the range practicing. Also, I think I like the fact that I can have a clip standing by for the automatic, but not for a revolver. Also don't automatics have lower recoil then a revolver?
At any rate,forget a S&W autoloader for two reasons. One is that I have never had one that was accurate worth a damn,despite them feeling so "good" in my hand. The other reason is we are having a boycott on all S&W firearms.
Yea, I'll avoid S&W.
If you HAVE to have a "compact" autoloader,stick with something like a Kahr in 9mm,or if you can stand a slightly larger handgun,a Makarov in 9mm Makarov. Do NOT even bother with a autoloader unless you KNOW you WILL carry it with a round chambered. BS me all you want,but don't BS yourself on this. If you ever need a handgun,you need it NOW. Chances are you won't have either the time OR the proper frame of mind to chamber a round if push comes to shove.
That's interesting. I will likely want to do concealed carry, is it safe to cary a gun like that? My 12 Guage is by my bed and I have a few shells in the magazine, but not in the chamber, for safety and because I think the sound of the pump action might encourage an intruder to exit my house.
>> I have a suspect he was "unemployed, which I find odd, as the press will usually state a persons occupation.<<
This means he had probably never had a job. He was only 18,so all he had probably ever done was crime. Keep us posted if they ever release his arrest record.
The AK is a good firepower gun. Lots of rounds and real reliable. Sneakypete's advice on the revolver is good advice. The revolver is reliable, easy to operate, and very quick to get into action. The only problem I have with revolvers for concealed carry is that it is harder to hide them on the body, especially a full size 4" gun. Trust me on this, I'm 6'2" and 250lb.s and I have a hard time hiding my GP-100.
Don't get me wrong on the 9mm or 38 spl, they have accounted for alot of bad guys and good guys over the years. Both are very old and useful cartridges, but for duty or home defense, I prefer something bigger. No matter what handgun cartridge you choose, it is pitifully weak compared to just about any rifle cartridge.
I'm a big fan of the .45 cal Glock 30. Don't leave home without it
Maybe he attended a Law Enforcement Shooting course – they are taught to fire until the magazine is empty. If you just “wing” the bad guy – he might start shooting.
Why did it take the customer so many shots? If I were the judge, I would sentence him to a couple of shooting lessons at a local range. Next time, he won't need so many shots.
Have you ever been in a tense situation shooting. By law, the most his gun can hold is ten. So, if the punk was running and ducking and still got hit eight times, then I would have to say that the costumer needs to teach such a class. I have seen many reports of police officers that have missed after 6 or 10 shots fired, and they were trained. Thank you, whoever, for ridding this country of one more thug.
WE NEED A WHOLE LOT MORE OF THESE ROTTEN THOUGS SHOT!!!!!
>>and maybe never employed at all, so maybe the child doesn't qualify for Soc. Sec.<<
It does not matter if his father never worked one day in his life,the son will STILL get his fathers "SS money". He WILL get SSI,and this DOES come from the SS trust funds. There is a EXCELLENT chance his grandmother and grandfather will even be paid to care for this future felon,and there is no doubt at all they will get foodstamps and other benefits for raising him.
Now you done it! Chuckie Schumer will be fit to be tied if he thinks that thing exists. Of course now that there's a picture of it on the internet, it has to exist.
How much you wanna bet some clunkhead reporter does a story about a .50 Barrett pistol that can shoot through police cars?
Another reason to ban fifties even if it is BS.
They interviewed the robber's father and he was asying that the only reason he robbed the place was to get money for his baby and nobody should get killed trying to get money for their kids!!!
Well, gee, consider this from the father's point of view. He, the father himself, is still alive. That means he never got shot for the same thing, so why should his boy? By the way, couldn't he have spared a little food for his grandson so his own son wouldn't have to rob at gunpoint to get money to buy food?
Or, gosh, couldn't he just have gone in and shoplifted some baby food instead of jeapordizing people's lives?
I love to see that kind of "gun control". Great shootin'
>>I enjoy shooting and don't mind spending time at the range practicing.<<
This is essential,regardless of what you buy. This is one area where the 9mm and the 357 Mag are the wise choice for MOST people. There is plenty of surplus 9mm ammo you can buy cheap for practice,and you can shoot cheap 38 Special reloads in the 357 revolver.
>>Also, I think I like the fact that I can have a clip standing by for the automatic, but not for a revolver.<<
See,here you are ALREADY planning on reloading because you missed with all your first shots.(G) My serious advise is to do the majority of your practice shooting doing "point shooting" in groups of 3 shots as a minimum. Practice mostly on head-sized targets at ranges of 21 feet or less. Don't do this untill you have already shot several boxes of ammo through the gun and have a better idea of how accurate it is,and "where" it shoots. I'd recommend 200-300 rounds "bullseye" shooting at first,and then go to "point shooting" once you become comfortable with the gun.
This is self-defense we are talking about here,not a combat assault. IF you ever have the misfortune to get into a shooting match with a bad guy,chances are he's close enough to spit on before you are aware you even have a problem. PLEASE note that this does NOT mean you HAVE to go for a head shot in the real world. The target you choose to shoot at depends on your own individual skill and self-confidence, as well as the unique set of circumstances you might be facing in that particiluar situation. Heads can be bobbing and weaving,and can make for hard "real life" targets. Don't hesitate to go for the breastplate instead of the head if this is the case. The "vital area" is still roughly the same size as the head,but it doesn't move as much.
BTW,they are also "speed loaders" for revolvers than hold a cylinder full of rounds ready to load.Lots of people will throw one of these in their jacket or pants pocket. I normally carry a 5 shot 44 Special revolver with a 3 inch barrel,and I never carry any back-up ammo for it. I have a hard time picturing a situation where I would need more than 5 shots,and if I do there is bound to be another gun laying around I can pick up. I HAVE carried everything from a 22 LR semi-auto small enough to fit in your t-shirt pocket,to a Ruger 44 Mag with a 6 inch barrell,and felt well armed with them all. Bullet placement is EVERYTHING.
>>Also don't automatics have lower recoil then a revolver? <<
To be honest,I don't really know. I'm not sure there is any way to compare them unless you compare a Ruger revolver in 9mm with a autoloader of roughly the same size and weight. Besides,they recoil different due to their designs of their grips. A revolver has more of a tendency to "rock" in your hand,while a autoloader has more of a tendency to push straight back and twist. It's a "apples and oranges" thing for the most part. I shoot both,and don't have any problems with either. The ONE thing you MUST keep in mind with a autoloader is that they do NOT tolerate a "loose grip" when firing one. Hold it loose and it WILL malfunction,failing to either feed or eject the fired case.
You should also know that revolvers come in more powerful calibers than autoloaders. This might be one reason you heard they recoil more. >>That's interesting. I will likely want to do concealed carry, is it safe to cary a gun like that?<<
Yes,but chances are you won't be able to bring yourself to completely believe it. Some designs like the 1911A1 Colt and the P-35 Browning are designed to be carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. Others,like the Kahr and the AMT "DAO Backups" are "double action only" guns that require a long trigger pull similiar to a revolver to shoot,and they are perfectly safe to carry with a round in the chamber.
>>My 12 Guage is by my bed and I have a few shells in the magazine, but not in the chamber, for safety and because I think the sound of the pump action might encourage an intruder to exit my house.<<
Everybody says that,but I keep mine ready to go at ALL times by simply taking the safety off. If *I* were the intruder/burgler in your house and heard you racking a shotgun,all it would encourage ME to do would be shoot your ass through the wall. The sound would not only tell me where you were,but it would also tell me you are armed and a serious threat to me even if I try to retreat. I prefer both of these pieces of information come as a surprise to anybody who comes in my house.
The bad news; we will be supporting the son on Social Security for the next 17 1/2 years.
The father was 18, how many 18 year old fathers take care of their children financially. My point is the taxpayers would be footing this bill either way.
I recommend that you buy a revolver because they don't have magizines to jam or a very high quality pistol that you can install Crimson Trace Corp. Lasergrips. (www.cromsontrace.com) These are the most effective laser grips that I have ever seen. Install the grips and practice, practice, practice, ............... at a range of 25 feet. Practice quick draw until you can draw the weapon and hit the target in 2 seconds or less. Then you'll be qualified to carry the gun with a sense of security. Good Luck !
``It was wrong. God knows it's not right....."
I wonder what God thinks about people who raise their children to be predatory animals with no regard for life? What regard did this piece of s**t have for his own childs life?
One more for our side.
Good Guy: = 1
Criminal: = 0
The Good guys win one more round.
WTG!
Sound advice,I am cocked and locked and ready to rock.
The .45 IS a load to carry though,have been thinking of looking at a Titanium .44 long colt to save on the chiropractor bills.
I will likely want to do concealed carry, is it safe to carry a gun like that?
If your heart is set on a small auto-loader, check out the Taurus PT-111. Here's a link.
It's a 10-round (plus one in the chamber) 9mm pistol that's easily concealable in the waistband or in a jacket. It has three "degrees of comfort" (I can't think of a better term right now) for a new shooter. It requires a heavier double-action trigger pull that reduces the chance of an accidental discharge, it has a manual safety that prevents trigger pull and slide movement and can be flipped off in a heartbeat, and it has an integral safety lock that will secure a loaded pistol from curious hands. Because of the light weight (19 oz.) and plastic stock, there is more perceived recoil and probably reduced accuracy. It's not a bad option for a close-in, last ditch weapon.
Just make sure you're using hollow-points (reduced danger to bystanders, more damage to target) when you're considering 9mm as a defensive round.
Just my opinion ..........
That was my thought. Maybe he had already robbed the other store and killed the clerk. I did not see the times involved or any more detail. But he certainly got what was coming to him even if this was his first offense.
This was my first handgun and I still carry it a lot. My only warning is to be sure you put several hundred rounds through it before you carry it for self defense. Up until I fired 3 or 4 hundred rounds, it jammed at least once with every magazine. Now, it fires first time and every time and is highly concealable and lightweight. But I am getting used to my Colt M1991A1 .45. I picked it up pretty cheap and it really is a fine gun and very accurate. I just have to get used to the weight compared to the Taurus.
Good advice.
btt ......
True story
Went 'coon' hunting a while back. Another guy wounds a big one. Goes to finish the critter off with a 9mm. shoots out the magazine (8) direct hits including a head shot. Coon still struggling. Had to get out my 45 and end it. Guy looks at me like he can't believe he just shot a little ol'e coon 8 times and couldn't kill it.
Lesson here? Get the largest caliber you can control.
http://www.pilotonline.com/news/nw0106fire.html
Excerpt:
``Yes,'' said Maria Heil, a spokeswoman for Second Amendment Sisters Inc., a grass-roots, pro-gun group based in Texas. ``For the most part, people are getting absolutely fed up, especially in high-crime areas. They know police won't come, and if they do come, it's after the fact. People know now that they have to do something to protect themselves.''
Those fears, anxieties and frustrations are largely why there has been so much public support in South Hampton Roads for a 41-year-old Portsmouth man who fatally shot a teen-ager who was robbing an Alcoholic Beverage Control Store on Dec. 22. The man, who legally was carrying a concealed weapon, was one of six customers in the store and was ordered to the floor by the armed teen.
The customer lived to see another day.
The good news is that dear ol'mom had to bury "her mistake". Maybe she got the message that her sorry son was commiting a felony and putting peoples lives at risk.
Take note mom: The man who defended himself has reloaded. In case you have another robbing son.
Notice that the Second Amendment Sisters are quoted by the press, in my last post.
Hey guys. I've been trying out several different hand guns out at the range. Previously I was strongly leaning towards the HK USP Compact .40 S&W. Yesterday I went and tried a Glock 27 (very small .40 S&W) and I really didn't like that. Very inaccurate and lots of recoil.
When shooting with the autoloaders my accuracy was not great, especially when going out beyond 15 feet. So I went to the counter and was going to rent a revolver. I asked for a recommendation and the guy behind the counter was raveing up and down about the Ruger GP-100 .357 Magnum with 6" barrel.
I went out and was hitting bulls-eyes with my first shots! The feel was way more solid and reliable then any of the autoloaders I've tried. (How horrible would it be to have drawn your gun in self defense and then and have it jam?) This firearm felt like a finely crafted precision instrument, I really like it. I also like the fact that I can shoot the .38 special rounds for target shooting. And it looks cool too :)
So now I am all but decided that I will be getting the GP-100 .357 Magnum, stainless steel, with a 6" barrel. According to the Ruger site this is available with a shroud or no shroud. What does this mean?
Finally, my last concern is that, it was great single action, but certainly took much more force double action. I would think during a self defense situation you very likely won't have time to cock the hammer back. How do you expect you would use your revolvers in a fire fight - double action? I guess practice would make me more comfortable with the double action.
Again, I will be considering this weapon for future use as a concealed carry. One of you were saying that you had trouble concealing your GP-100 with 4 inch barrel, so I guess the 6" will be tough. I think I want the added accuracy and easier handling of the longer barrel. I don't mind if it is bulky and sticks through clothing, I mean as long as I am legal to carry it I think that doesn't bother me. If we didn't live among such fearfull and ignorant people I would have no problem wearing it unconcealed in a holster on my belt.
Thanks for all the advice so far, I may have not even considered a revolver otherwise.
>> Had to get out my 45 and end it. Guy looks at me like he can't believe he just shot a little ol'e coon 8 times and couldn't kill it. <<
I shot a possum one night 8 times with my 45ACP and he walked away when I went back in the house to put my boots on to go get a shovel to bury him with. He left behind most of his jaw bone and a lot of his intestines,but he walked away from it.
The lesson to be learned here is unless you make a brain or a spine shot,even handgun rounds are WAAAY overpowered for small critters. All the bullet energy is just blown out the other side of him without even slowing down. It's like shooting a white tail deer with a 458 Win magnum.
The truth of the matter is the best handgun round to dispatch animals such as this is the good old .22LR HP.
>>So now I am all but decided that I will be getting the GP-100 .357 Magnum, stainless steel, with a 6" barrel. According to the Ruger site this is available with a shroud or no shroud. What does this mean? <<
I haven't seen the Ruger web site or even paid any attention to their guns in years,but I am ASSUMING "shroud" means "ears" that come up on both sides of the hammer and sheild it from getting caught up in clothing. If you have this as a option,get it.
>>Finally, my last concern is that, it was great single action, but certainly took much more force double action. I would think during a self defense situation you very likely won't have time to cock the hammer back. How do you expect you would use your revolvers in a fire fight - double action?<<
Yes,you will shoot it double-action,and won't even remember having to make ANY effort to pull the trigger.
>> Again, I will be considering this weapon for future use as a concealed carry. One of you were saying that you had trouble concealing your GP-100 with 4 inch barrel, so I guess the 6" will be tough. I think I want the added accuracy and easier handling of the longer barrel.<<
The barrell length has absolutely nothing to do with making a handgun hard to conceal. You just carry it in a "Inside the waistband" (IWB) holster. What a longer barrell DOES do is make a quick draw even more awkward unless you have one of those "long,lanky frames". Remember,you have to keep drawing UP before you can start going forward.
MY own choice would be whatever version of the GP-100 that Ruger sells now that comes in stainless steel and that doesn't have rear sights,and I'd get it in a 4inch barrell. Ruger used to call these the "Police Service Six",but I have no idea if they still do or not.I bought mine in 1976. Adjustable rear sights tend to stick up and have sharp edges that can catch on your clothing when you're trying to draw in a hurry. You don't need them anyhow. What you will be doing is "point shooting" ,anyway. When you do this,you get squared with your target,and raise the handgun up to eye level with both arms equally extended and locked. You look at the front sight and your target only. Do this for a while,and you will end up only looking at your target.
>>I don't mind if it is bulky and sticks through clothing, I mean as long as I am legal to carry it I think that doesn't bother me.<<
It WILL be bulky,but the Ruger is the least bulky of the strong revolvers. Get one of those form-fitted plastic inside the pants holsters like the cops use (Keltec,or some similiar name),and it won't really be a problem as long as you wear a loose shirt or coat over it. You do NOT want the gun to show for several reasons,the biggest one being you lose the "edge" surprise gives you. >>If we didn't live among such fearfull and ignorant people I would have no problem wearing it unconcealed in a holster on my belt. <<
It's legal to do this in some states,and NC is one of them. The problem is everybody wants to freak-out and stare at you.I carry out in the open when I'm working in my yard,and even this freaks out people who stop to visit or ask me questions.
Like I said,get the version WITHOUT the adjustable rear sights,get it in stainless steel with a 4 inch barrel,and made DAMN sure you get one of those hard-plastic form-fitted holsters that you can wear inside the waistband of your pants. If you have any specific questions,FR mail me.
Oh yeah,you should also be aware that your practice 38 Special rounds you use for practice,and the 357 rounds you use for carry will shoot radically different. For one thing,the magnum loads will shoot a LOT lower. You will need to practice with both in order to know what to expect.
Try a sig saur Model 239 in .40 S&W.
Thanks for the reply. In regards to the shroud, according to the Ruger web site, I was slightly incorrect. It is not with or without but "short" or "full" shroud.
Also according to the web site, the rear sights are available "fixed" or "adjustable". I understand you recommend the "fixed" in this case? The 6" barrel is only available with the fixed sites, the 4" barrel is available either way. It's sounds like the 4" barrel will be the way to go. How much accuracy will I loose versus the 6"? How much more recoil?
Finally concerning carrying the fire arm, you say it is legal in NC to carry it unconcealed, but not everywhere? I thought it would be legal anywhere? Are you saying there are states that do not allow you to carry a firearm at all?
Thanks.
You have mail.
Would these socialist pukes cry for a robber if natural law made bullets strike the shooter if the shooter ever fired a gun wrongly? I mean, are we supposed to simply take this sh*t from these thugs and NEVER fight back?
Fight crime-Shoot Back!!!
I AM GLAD THIS PUNK IS DEAD! He is God's problem now, or God is now HIS problem!
Just what do these punks and puke mothers think when they pull a gun on We the People? I carry, and I would willingly shoot the SOB!
Man, this "he shouldn't have been killed for pulling a gun and threatening to kill everyone else" crap PISSES ME OFF!!! OF COURSE, HE SHOULD BE KILLED!!!
>>Thanks for the reply. In regards to the shroud, according to the Ruger web site, I was slightly incorrect. It is not with or without but "short" or "full" shroud. <<
Ok,what they are talking about here is the "ejector rod shroud". The "ejector rod" is the little round rod you push to eject the empty cases before you reload the cylinder. The "full length" shrounds provide some advantage to long-range target shooters,but all it would do for you would be to add weight and bulk. Get the "short" one. "Full length" means the shroud is the same length as the barrel.
>>Also according to the web site, the rear sights are available "fixed" or "adjustable". I understand you recommend the "fixed" in this case? The 6" barrel is only available with the fixed sites, the 4" barrel is available either way.<<
Sure you don't have that backwards? I've never seen a modern revolver with a 6" barrel and fixed sights. You do see this in the 4" versions though,as this is the version most commonly carried by the police. Yes,I recommend the fixed sights.
>>It's sounds like the 4" barrel will be the way to go. How much accuracy will I loose versus the 6"? How much more recoil? <<
You will neither lose accuracy nor gain any recoil. You will lose some velocity when shooting maximum loads,but not enough to bother you considering your intended use. A 4" barrel IS the minimum length if you ever plan on shooting Magnum loads,though. Hot 357 Magnum loads out of a 2" barrel amounts to 38 Special loads.
Where you "gain accuracy" with the longer barrels is purely related to a longer sighting plane makes it easier for you to align your sights. The only way *I* can hit anything with a 2" barrel revolver is to throw the gun. I hit running snakes with my 3' barrel 44 Special,though.
>>Finally concerning carrying the fire arm, you say it is legal in NC to carry it unconcealed, but not everywhere? <<
There are the same restrictions as placed on carrying a concealed firearm,plus it's likely some stores will tell you to not come in them if they see the gun. These same stores don't have the "no concealed weapons" signs,but the manager on duty DOES have the right to bar your entry if he sees the gun being carried openly. You can do this if you want,and no harm is done. The only thing is people WILL stare at you.
??I thought it would be legal anywhere? Are you saying there are states that do not allow you to carry a firearm at all? <<
Of course there are. I know of several states where "open carry" is legal without a permit,but the majority of the states require a permit to carry,and you can only carry concealed,even then.
Now,I KNOW this may be a slight technical exaggeration,because there ARE systems in place in ALL states for carrying concealed firearms. Since the average person has a better chance of being elected as the next Pope than they do of getting a permit in one of these places,you might as well say you are allowed to carry a firearm at all.
One example of the scam used in anti-gun states and areas to allow the "annointed elite" to carry a gun even if there are no provisions for this in law is to have a sheriff name someone a "special deputy". This technically makes them LEO's,and there is not a chance in hell of any other LEO actually arresting them .
Another way is to be a political "insider" and just have a judge issue you a CCW.They are the ultimate authority,and all they have to say is it was their belief your life was at severe enough risk to justify this. I personally used to know a guy in NC that had a Virginia CCW permit before they became commonly available in Virginia to average citizens. A judge he goes hunting with gave it to him. This may have been technically illegal,but who is going to tell a judge this?
To conceal the GP-100, look up Ken Null. Simply the best concealed holsters in the WORLD.
Thanks. I did have that backwards. The fixed sights are NOT available on the 6" (only adjustable). The 4" can be had either way.
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