The scene in the Virgin of Guadalupe's eye.
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15-Jan-2001 -- ZENIT News Agency
Engineer Sees a Reflection, Literally, From a Scene in 1531
ROME, JAN. 14, 2001 (ZENIT.org) .- Digital technology is giving new leads in understanding a phenomenon that continues to puzzle science: the mysterious eyes of the image of Virgin of Guadalupe.
The image, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to the Catholic faith. Last week in Rome, results of research into the famed image were discussed by engineer José Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies during a conference at the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum.
For over 20 years, this graduate of environmental systems engineering of Cornell University has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough maguey fiber fabric of Juan Diego’s tilma. What intrigued Tonsmann the most were the eyes of the Virgin.
Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image’s eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, Tonsmann said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them.
Tonsmann says he believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on Dec. 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, with the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumárraga and others present in the room.
In his research, Tonsmann used a digital process used by satellites and space probes in transmitting visual information.
He insists that the image "that has not been painted by human hand." As early as the 18th century, scientists showed that it was impossible to paint such an image in a fabric of that texture. The "ayate" fibers used by the Indians, in fact, deteriorated after 20 years. Yet, the image and the fabric it is imprinted on have lasted almost 470 years ago.
Tonsmann pointed out that Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, has found that the image did not have natural, animal or mineral colorings. Given that there were no synthetic colorings in 1531, the image is inexplicable.
In 1979, Americans Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays and discovered to their surprise that there was no trace of paint and that the fabric had not been treated with any kind of technique.
"[How] it is possible to explain this image and its consistency in time without colors, on a fabric that has not been treated?" Tonsmann asked. "[How] is it possible that, despite the fact there is no paint, the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance?"
Tonsmann, a Peruvian engineer, added, "Callahan and Smith showed how the image changes in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon that is known by the word iridescence, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands."
The scientist began his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin’s eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes.
The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle, the moment Juan Diego unfurled his tilma before the bishop, according to Tonsmann. In other words, the Virgin’s eyes have the reflection that would have been imprinted in the eyes of any person in her position.
In the eyes, Tonsmann believes, it is possible to discern a seated Indian, who is looking up to the heavens; the profile of a balding, elderly man with a white beard, much like the portrait of Bishop Zumárraga, painted by Miguel Cabrera, to depict the miracle; and a younger man, in all probability interpreter Juan González.
Also present, Tonsmann believes, is an Indian, likely Juan Diego, of striking features, with a beard and mustache, who unfolds his own tilma before the bishop; a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave who was in the bishop’s service; and a man with Spanish features who looks on pensively, stroking his beard with his hand.
In a word, the Virgin’s eyes bear a kind of instant picture of what occurred at the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop, Tonsmann says.
Moreover, in the center of the pupils, on a much more reduced scale, another scene can be perceived, independent of the first, the scientist contends. It is that of an Indian family made up of a woman, a man and several children. In the right eye, other people who are standing appear behind the woman.
Tonsmann ventured to express why he believes the Virgin’s eyes have a "hidden" message for modern times, when technology is able to discover it. "This could be the case of the picture of the family in the center of the Virgin’s eye," he says, "at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world."
Fascinating post. Thanks. Watch out, here come the Mary and miracle bashers!
I've seen it. It looks like a painting, but that does not mean it is not a miracle.
They have a large conveyor belt in front of the shrine to keep the crowd moving. Before we got on it, our guide said; "Ladies, put your bag under your arm and hold onto it with both hands. Men, put your wallet in your front pocket, put your hand in with it and keep it there."
One man did not listen, they picked him clean. Watch, wallet, passport, pen, everything.
Is there a link you could provide?
Link to an article about the eyes.
IMHO, I'm a Christian myself, but those eyes look more like random paint than real people. There just isn't a lot of detail.
>Painting or miracle?
I have no idea. But I once read a "fringe" speculation type book which said that Leonardo Da Vinci (and other tech-oriented artists of the time) experimented in that period with "camera obscura" things (large rooms/large boxes with pin hole aperatures) that could project images onto surfaces. The writers of this fringe book _speculated_ that skilled alchemists of the time may have stumbled upon chemicals that react with light and, putting two and two together, used camera obscura rooms to project images onto these primitive chemicals and actually generate early, proto-photographs.
Could some early alchemist have done such a thing to this picture's pupils as a kind of conjurer's trick or alchemical demonstration?
Mark W.
Where'd you get this? Daily World News at the checkout stand at Kroger?
One man did not listen, they picked him clean. Watch, wallet, passport, pen, everything.
Wow! A Miracle!
The scene in the Virgin of Guadalupe's eye.
The face on Mars.
When viewed from the grassy knoll.
"that has not been painted by human hand."
The Greeks have a word for it: "acheirpoieton."
Looks like a little 'monkey business' as far as I can see!!
Painting or miracle?
I saw an elephant in the clouds once. Painting or miracle?
The scientist began his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin’s eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes.
Magnified 2500 times, then processed via computer. This sounds strikingly familiar to the Face on Mars episode, in which computer-processed pictures of a mountain on Mars looked like a bas relief of a human-like face; supposedly, the remnants of an ancient advanced civilization. When NASA sent a lower-orbiting probe to take a closer look, unprocessed pictures revealed it clearly to be just a mountain. Moral of the story? You get what you're looking for. You can use a computer to give any kind of results you want - just like the bible codes.
Thanks for the Mary baiting. Lets not be pious, we all love this debate.
I saw an elephant in the clouds once. Painting or miracle?
Most likely a combination of contrails and black helicopters.
Looks like Mr. Confetti Man is at the top right there. Freepers get around, don't they?
Asian or Indian?
Wait a minute-- I need coffee. African or Asian?
Wait a minute-- I need coffee. African or Asian?
Well, since it was flying, I would say it was more Dumboian.
Was it pink?
Have no doubt a miracle.
Sadly the catholic bashers as always on this forum will come out of the woodwork and bash the Virgin Mary ect... but IMO I have been there to the Cathedral in Mexico City,I have studied the facts and have seen and IMO it can be explained no other way than a miracle.
I saw an elephant in the clouds once. Painting or miracle?
LSD
I'm a practicing Catholic as well (as opposed to a CINO), but this is a classic example of people seeing what they want to see.
Sadly the catholic bashers as always on this forum will come out of the woodwork and bash the Virgin Mary ect.
Why are there gay bashers and Catholic bashers but no Christian bashers? What do gays and Catholics have in common that gives them that similarity?
Why are there gay bashers and Catholic bashers but no Christian bashers? What do gays and Catholics have in common that gives them that similarity?
It's not PC to bash Gays. But Catholic bashing is in vogue, certainly by the left at the very least.
And what is the point of this 'miracle'? Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons, etc; those are miracles and had a purpose.
FR is the worst place to have a thoughtful conversation about a subject like this. That's why I usually don't open these threads up. If I do I only read the article and skip all the banter.
I can't answer what only God knows but I can try and say that Our Lady Of Guadalupe is utilized as a patron to end abortion,that alone has good purpose.
The purpose was to bring the new world to the Church. Prior to the appearance of this image, almost none of the pagan Indians in Spanish-held America had converted. And wow, the Spanish generally respected their religious freedom (not all of them). But when Juan Diego came to the Bishop with this on his tilma, nearly the same number of people in the New World became Catholic as had left the Church in the Old World to become Protestant.
And what is the point of this 'miracle'? Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons, etc; those are miracles and had a purpose.
Dude, if you'd read on to the second paragraph of the article you'd see:
The image, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to the Catholic faith.
Purpose, indeed.
SD
And what is the point of this 'miracle'? Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons, etc; those are miracles and had a purpose.
Dude, if you'd read on to the second paragraph of the article you'd see:
The image, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to the Catholic faith.
Purpose, indeed.
SD
Couldn't agree more, PM...I've never understood why some of my fellow Catholics get so worked up over an "image" of Mary or Jesus in a building window, tortilla, or whatever. While I'd never dispute the reality of miracles (or even Marian appearances at Fatima or Lourdes), I am skeptical of basing one's faith primarily on them...as Christ said to Thomas, "Blessed are they who have not seen but have believed." That's always been my guiding principle.
LSD
Nope, just the regular old interesting cloud formations that every kid enjoys and a summer afternoon. It would indeed take a weak mind to turn it into a life changing event or wrap a theology around it.
The vision of the woman clothed with the sun and of the great dragon her persecutor.
12:1. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
A woman... The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.
12:2. And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.
12:3. And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
12:4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
12:5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule ll nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.
12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her, a thousand two hundred sixty days.
12:7. And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels.
12:8. And they prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.
12:11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of the testimony: and they loved not their lives unto death.
12:12. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
12:13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man child.
12:14. And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert, unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth, after the woman, water, as it were a river: that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
12:16. And the earth helped the woman: and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17. And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
12:18. And he stood upon the sand of the sea.
(1)Click Here:For those of you that would actually like to study facts before commenting in ignorance.
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There's a coffee stain on this file that I'm working on. It looks exactly like Eric Clapton, I tell ya.
They're on their game today (the rogue's gallery you brought out of the woodwork ... wonder which will be the one to laugh last? =)
Also always interesting to see where they draw the line at faith in the facts and conclusions -- the truth -- an electron microscope can tell.
In honor of your courage in posting this, I offer you RightOnline's excellent article on The Shroud of Turin. I really enjoyed the STURP info ... particularly the part about Pilate's lepton.
No need for such defensiveness.
I am a catholic and it's just a question of curious minds need to know.
If these images have been so thoroughly analyzed by computer etc., why can't the images be shared with us?
Where are the images described in the article?
That's what you see in the thread, actually. Not terribly convincing beyond "eye of the beholder" but a hell of lot easier to riff on than the way the tilma -- like the shroud -- still is here to be probed, photoed and poked fun at**.
(** by only the best, of course =)
This is very interesting. Thanks for the post. When examing how I feel about things like this, I always keep in mind the following scripture:
The wicked One will come with the power of Satan and perform all kinds of false miracles and wanderers, and use every kind of wicked deceit on those who will perish. They will perish because they did not welcome and love the truth so as to be saved. And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe in what is false. The result is that all who have not believed the truth, but taken pleasure in sin, will be condemned (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)
The woman is Isreal.
I don't understand it but that does not mean it is not true. If I didn't have faith, I would not believe either the old or new Testament. God is not dead. I am sure that Mary still fits into His plan of salvation somehow even if I don't understand. Current readings are about the miracle at the wedding feast at Cana. I don't know how that was done either but Mary played a part.
I wasn't being defensive, just predictive. I'm even bold enough to invite RaceBannon here.
I have a Christian friend who works for a large conservative newspaper. He is also an author. I sent him the link to your post. He asked me if there were any reports on this, other than what's here. I did a search on Google, Yahoo, and MSN. All I could find was personal webpages. Do you know of any news sites or ones that go into more detail about the examination of the eyes? He is as intrigued as I am. Thanks.
Lying signs and wonders!
Thanks.
The compulsive need of the atheists....sorry, "libertarians", to dump on posts like this is as predictable as day following night. Any hint of Divine intervention must be quickly ridiculed.
It's always amusing to see how quickly their mantras of "each to his own" and "live and let live" disappear when religion raises its head.
I once found a rock that looked like an ear.
The compulsive need of the atheists....sorry, "libertarians", to dump on posts like this is as predictable as day following night. Any hint of Divine intervention must be quickly ridiculed.
As both a recovering Catholic AND a Libertarian I must say that I cast a suspicious eye on most of the crying bathtub Mary stories, and view digital manipulation in this case with extreme criticism, yet believe the image itself is a miracle. Either the peasant's story is true and the image just "appeared" or there existed a very great and talented painter in this colonial backwater who toiled on this one work and then disappeared, when such talent surely would have found fame even in one of the art centers of the world such as Florence. Even the latter would be a miracle, albeit of the much smaller God-working-through-man variety.
"The scene in the Virgin of Guadalupe's eye."
It looks Demonic to me.
"Lying signs and wonders!"
Precisely !!!
Mary was chosen by God to give birth to his son. He chose many people to carry out the work of the Kingdom but only one through which we could gain salvation - Jesus. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light, no man comes to the Father except through me." It's not that I dislike Mary in any way, I just don't pray and worship to her just like I don't pray to Moses or Abraham or Noah. They did their work they were supposed to do and are now enjoying their reward with God. They helped prepare the way but they were not THE Way.
Ya got that right! Somehow, I thought they would be more polite this time, but the Catholic bashers never miss an opportunity.
"They helped prepare the way but they were not THE Way. "
Right. No one disagrees with that and no one prays to Mary. They ask Mary to pray for them "pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death".
Mary can't do anything but she can ask Jesus to do things just like at the wedding at Cana. Only Jesus is the Way.
no one prays to Mary
Depends what the meaning of "pray" is. No one worships or adores Mary, true. But "pray" means only to make a request. And we do do that.
"Depends what the meaning of "pray" is"
True, a lot of people prayed that Bush would win but I wouldn't call that prayer. People might be able to intercede for us, but only God can answer prayer. We might talk (pray) to people who have the ear of Bush but only Bush can answer the prayer.
As both a recovering Catholic ...
I really wish you wouldn't use this phrase. Apart from being the most dreadful and over-used cant, it implies that Catholicism is a disease. Talk like that is unhelpful and needlessly provocative.
As both a recovering Catholic ...
I really wish you wouldn't use this phrase.
My apologies. I did not realize it was a PC term whose meaning was just the opposite of my own intent. I am recovering from having fallen away from the faith. In returning to Catholocism, I am "recovering". In a way, losing faith was a kind of spiritual disease, but one for which the healing results in a stronger host, as it were, than the one before the fall.
I am recovering from having fallen away from the faith. In returning to Catholocism, I am "recovering".
Ah. I took you to mean quite the opposite. Perhaps "born-again Catholic" would have been less ambiguous (even if suspiciously happy-clappy). Anyway, welcome home.
Catholics get the unique opportunity of being bashed by both the left and the right -- for different reasons. It's really sad. Whenever I hear leftists bash fundamentalists Christians, I defend them. I see us as people with common goals. It's sad that some here can't see that.
So true. Our new battle cry could be..." I regret I only have two cheeks to turn for my religion."
hey good take for a catholic :) :)....i believe that we should put our faith in God, His Spirit and His Son...if we happen to see it withour own eyes thats a bonus... the only way we change the hearts of our fellow humans that are not Christians is to live a life that is reminiscent of Christ's.
LOL!
"happy-clappy"
Great !
I once found a rock that looked like an ear.
If you had only claimed that it was the ear of the soldier that was cut off by Peter, you could have made religious history. ;-)
Catholics are not required to believe in the appartions. I do if they have been approved. Guadalupe has been approved. This is not a good place to have this article because of the disrespect shown to all things Catholic on this site and the Blessed Mother in particular.
I can understand Catholic and Christian bashers. Who wants to be told that they cannot rip proto-humans from the incubators of women? Who wants to be denied the "right" to rape, pillage, steal, fornicate, get drunk, physically assault another person, curse G_d, hump goats, overeat, commit arson, commit murder, abuse children, publicly expose themselves and worship Marx?
Yeah, I can fully understand Catholic and Christian bashers.
Looks like the random stuff in the design of the panaling in my bathroom. I can make pictures out of them too. And I do, they always look like they are screaming.
No you don't, you're posting on this thread. Ha ha!
Sorry TaRa, I type so slow, I didn't see all the stuff.
The other night, I heard a cop give a presentation on identity theft. He used a Power Point presentation with a cloudy, blue background. The clouds in one corner looked like the head of a hippie with an Afro. Cool, man!
I started to get a phobia about these Catholic miracle things when I heard a radio broadcast one night about something called The Bayside Prophecy. It was some Long Island housewife allegedly channeling the Virgin Mary. Her half-hour rant could have been easily lifted from the Moral Majority Newsletter (anti-abortion, pro-school prayer, yada, yada, yada).
Didn't Cliff Klavin find a potato that looked like Nixon?
I am a non-believer in religion, yet I have a very strong sense of right, wrong and fair play. I refrain from rape, looting, robbery, pillage and violence. I work hard, keep a stable household and pay my taxes. I really, really get tired of religious people insisting that the only way to live a moral, decent and productive life is to believe in their particular interpretation of some Deity. There have been many, many thieves, rapists and murderers who loudly professed their belief in God. Religion does not equal morality. Sorry.
OttoD
Don't need to apologize to the thought police. If we all tried to not offend anyone, this site would be part-time.
Another recovering catholic
Re: #9, the second image from the left apears to be that of Brigham Young. Flame away....... ;-)
Hey, my children have a favorite video, "Zorro's Fighting Legion". In it, an outlaw dresses in a gold suit and convinces the Indians (oops, native Americans) to bring him their gold and worship him as a god. They cower before him, repeatedly intoning his name, "Don del Oro, Don del Oro!" Don del Oro wears a mask that looks almost exactly like the photo you posted of the image on Mars. Coincidence?