Most Excellent!
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ROANOKE, Va. (AP) -- A federal judge Thursday ordered Virginia to issue specialty license plates bearing the Confederate battle flag logo of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
The ruling comes after nearly two years of legal wrangling over whether the state can deny a group's request for specialty tags based on the group's viewpoint.
U.S. District Judge Jackson Kiser said the state's refusal to issue the tag violated the group's right to free speech.
"They singled out this group based on viewpoint, and that flies on the face of the First Amendment," said Art Strickland, an attorney for the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
David Botkins, a spokesman for Attorney General Mark Earley, said the state had not decided whether to appeal.
The Sons of Confederate Veterans sued Virginia in 1999 after lawmakers approved a plate but refused to allow the group's logo, which features a Confederate battle flag. Some legislators argued that the flag is racially divisive.
The state contended that it has the right to control which groups and designs are allowed because the specialty plates represent the state and what it stands for.
Brag Bowling, first lieutenant commander of the Virginia Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, said the group does not promote racist views and simply wants to honor its ancestors. He said the ruling was "vindication from an unconstitutional and discriminatory act."
In 1997, a federal judge in Maryland ruled that the flag could not be banned from license plates there because of free speech. A North Carolina judge ruled last year that the Sons of Confederate Veterans qualifies as a civic organization and is thus entitled to special plates in that state.
Deo vendice!
Can't the "honor their ancestors" without displaying the flag?
Small minded twit.
Can't the "honor their ancestors" without displaying the flag?
Only if you can convince us that somebody died and appointed you License plate PC comissar.
Most Excellent!
Displaying the flag is the honor to the ancestors.
Being a Yankee, I don't really understand the desire to display the confederate flag (I've never had any urge to fly my New Jersey flag).
But there are people who'd like to display the confederate flag, and I strongly support their freedom to do so.
Its about time conservative, right-wing groups were extended the same rights as communists and socialists. However, this may go to higher courts for a final resolution. I know where Bader-Ginsberg and Beyer wil go on this one!
It wasn't the flag as a separate item that Virginia denied to us. They would not allow us to put our organization's logo on the organization's license plate because the logo contained the flag. The State has no right to dictate to us what our logo design should be.
This country wants diversity-if we all decide to become Americans I am for that -but as long as we have diversity then the Confederate Flag should be ok.
Better watch it with the pro-Dixie posts today, folks. FR is on full Racism Alert and posts are getting pulled. Of course Jim has every right to pull any post he wants for any reason or none, but for safety's sake it's best we pro-Southerns lay low until the storm blows over.
This isn't a criticism; it's an observation.
Its about time conservative, right-wing groups were extended the same rights as communists and socialists.
Don't count your Hatches before they chicken. But at least we (may have) won this one.
Um, I don't think that you, of all people, would want open season on people handing out advice and making comments on how one chooses to deal with one's ancestors.
Southerners can respect their ancestors in the way they choose, you can respect yours in the way you choose, and I'll do the same with mine.
U.S. District Judge Jackson Kiser said the state's refusal to issue the tag violated the group's right to free speech.
Good ol' Judge Kiser. He was the one who, several years back, upheld the Virginia Military Institute's policy of excluding women, notwithstanding the fact that it was a state-supported school. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit subsequently overturned that decision, and VMI eventually decided to admit women, but I recall Kiser's original decision as a rare breath of fresh air and honesty in today's federal judiciary.
It's called southern populism, and not understood by those outside the South. Actually, not even by all southerners. I don't want the Confederate battle flag on my license plate, but I can understand those who do. The litigants see this license plate as a symbol of freedom -- that this is still America where we are able to express ideas freely and be proud of what we are.
This tests those who love to preach tolerance. Let's see if they can walk the walk and respect others who hold views different than their own.
You people are so funny.
What, you have to be a "commisar" to have an opinion now?
Going a bit over-the-top with the fascism thing, aren't we?
I dunno (just being a devil's advocate here, but...)
Can you imagine that the state would go for a "hammer and cycle" license plate, to celebrate and honor Virginia communists?
I've never had any urge to fly my New Jersey flag
You're sure setting yourself up with that one ....:)
It wasn't the flag as a separate item that Virginia denied to us. They would not allow us to put our organization's logo on the organization's license plate because the logo contained the flag. The State has no right to dictate to us what our logo design should be.
Well, thanks for clarifying it; that does put a little different spin on it.
But I continue to beg the question: Does the state HAVE to sponsor a license plate by any group that wants one?
The fact is that the Confederate flag offends a lot of people, just as many other hateful symbols do. To these people, this represents people who fought for slavery (and they did, too; read over the declarations adopted by the states that seceded. They give as their PRIMARY reason for secession that they no longer could count on the other states of the Union to return the "property"--slaves--to their owners in accordance with the fugitive slave laws).
So I can see why it might be offensive to some.
Wasn't there a case not long ago involving pro-life license plates? The NOW gang was fighting it out in court or something. Anyone remember that?
Then let's have the Swastika. "Nazis are people, too".
BTW, there were a LOT of Southerners who disagreed with Slavery and thus with secession.
Sure, but when you're talking public money, etc., it sort of takes on a different cast, wouldn't you agree?
It's called southern populism, and not understood by those outside the South.
I'm from the South, and I understand it. Most of those Southerners with an acute inferiority complex embrace it.
The rest of us are adults.
Can you imagine that the state would go for a "hammer and cycle" license plate, to celebrate and honor Virginia communists?
Sounds to me that a plate like that would honor bicycling carpenters.
Yeah, it was Florida, and NOW was defeated. But their claim was just silliness.
The tag simply had the slogan "Choose Life". They claimed that would foment "hate" toward abortion providers, and lead to more clinic bombings.
Needless to say, their suit was laughed out of court.
*Nyuk*!
"Being a Yankee, I don't really understand the desire to display the confederate flag."
A lot of it is reaction to being told we can't.
As an example, before the Brady Bill became effective, I owned two hand guns but had only fired 3 rounds in 15 years. Because of the Brady Bill and all the talk about taking guns, I now own several handguns , several rifles, and a shot gun and fired 1000 rounds of 9mm so I would be a good shot when taking the 50 shot timed firing test for the Texas CHL (concealed handgun license.) I joined the big rifle range in Houston and now fequently go shooting--and thoroughly enjoy it.
With the flag, a few people will always have one, but when the liberals started demonizing the flag, and by inference, the South, then it becomes a matter of honor.
Remember the quote from the War Between the States---the Northern soldier asked the Southern soldier why he was fighting---the Southern soldier answered. "Because you're down here."
I also believe that a big part of the facination of drugs for many people is that the drugs are forbidden fruit. And the "chase" is a big part of the facination of law inforcement with the "drug war". In fact, on a recent tv program on swat teams, the team leader said several times. "I want to be the first one through the door." He wanted to break down doors---and that is not good. And that has increased my interest in the law and court cases.
I'm from the South, and I understand it. Most of those Southerners with an acute inferiority complex embrace it. The rest of us are adults.
Calling yourself an "adult" is a stretch.
Does your statement claim that populists suffer from "acute inferiority complexes" -- that there are are no "adult" populists? If so, would this extend to populists of all stripes and regions? And why, in your view, is being a populist a sign of immaturity? I see populism as a healthy curb on those whose goal it is to expand government at all levels.
Can't the "honor their ancestors" without displaying the flag?
Why do you care?
As a great admirer of the enormous contributions of Virginia in defining what America was all about; in giving her much of her best early leadership, and in generally remaining truer to the principles of the Founding Fathers than any other State through the generations, I find it incredibly sad that a Virginia organization would have to appeal to a Federal Court for relief from a really silly decision by their own Legislature.
There is also something terribly illogical about the idea that a people need to apologize for their heritage, lest they offend others that do not identify with that heritage. Such a principle, applied on a larger scale, would strip most of the peoples of the earth from their cultural roots. Indeed, where on earth can you go; what previous time frame can you assess, that was not offensive to someone? Put another way, where can any of us travel, where we can not find some excuse to take offense at something in the past history of the place visited?
Before the age of the "politically correct," Americans of good will, found it easy not to take offense at the differing ways of one another, and at the differing ways of other peoples. We accorded respect to all, and all we asked back was respect in turn. It was a better system for getting along. And thus after the immediate heated antagonism of the War (1861 to 1865) subsided, those of good will North and South, learned to respect the honor of both their surviving veterans and their fallen heroes. What, in the name of everything sacred and holy, is the Virginia Legislature trying to do here?!
William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site
Can't claim to be an expert on all forms of "populism". But I grew up in Alabama, and I know who it is that gets all riled up about this stuff. It's people with no sense of self-worth anyway, desperately looking for SOMETHING to believe in. Something easy. Something that takes no thought.
NOTE: I'm not talking about "history buffs". I LOVE the history. I'm talkin' about people (like my ex-brother in law) that make this into a quasi-religious observance, and substitute their own twisted, one-dimensional version of these period of our nation's history for a serious inquiry.
WHy do you?
There is also something terribly illogical about the idea that a people need to apologize for their heritage,...
Well, there's "heritage" and there's "heritage". What if your ancestor was an ardent communist who took part in the Russian Revolution, and the subsequent Red purges? Is that your "heritage"? It is your family HISTORY, but "heritage" can be embraced or rejected.
What if you don't WANT to embrace the notion that your ancestors were willing to fight a war so that white people could own black people?
"Most of those Southerners with an acute inferiority complex embrace it."
Maybe Southerners want the right to choose.
Abortion offends me, so does that mean that women who embrace the right to choose abortion have an acute inferiority complex ?
Like I say, I can't generalize to all situations and people. But I grew up in Alabama, and I know what type people used to obsess about "th' South risin' agin'!"
They were typically losers.
"BTW a lot of Southerners disagreed with slavery and secession". ........... True, but they still fought for their homeland when the "balloon went up." Like Robert E. Lee who was opposed to both slavery and secession. Even Jefferson Davis was opposed to secession and was really against slavery in the final analysis.
"BTW a lot of Southerners disagreed with slavery and secession". ........... True, but they still fought for their homeland when the "balloon went up." Like Robert E. Lee who was opposed to both slavery and secession. Even Jefferson Davis was opposed to secession and was really against slavery in the final analysis.
The fact is that the Confederate flag offends a lot of people, just as many other hateful symbols do.
Since some view the flag with hatred and others with love, the flag itself isn't good, bad, wrong or evil, otherwise all that see it would have same mindless reaction. It is the color of viewpoint from which it's viewed. Therefore, any problem some people have with the flag is a personal problem generated by themsleves.
Don't you believe people should take responsibility for their own sight-enacted gastro-intestinal disturbances?
Thank you for your clarification. I tend to associate with the "history buff" types who support aspects of our heritage that are becoming increasingly controversial. I don't personally know anyone who fits the description of your brother-in-law, although sadly, I am sure they exist.
Even though we know there are those among us who will corrupt any and every thing given the chance, it's important for us to keep our focus on the larger picture of protecting the Bill of Rights. Symbols like the confederate battle flag fall unwittingly into this group. In order for our own rights to be protected, we must ensure the protection of our neighbor's.
WHy do you?
You made the negative statement on this thread. If you don't want to say why, say so. Are you ashamed of your reasons?
Can't the "honor their ancestors" without displaying the flag?
Ill Bay = the body of water adjoining the place where highest concentration of pernicious Yankees live (Massachusetts)?
I'm from the South
You may be from the South, but you are not of the South. Moving a Yankee (or a Yankee-fied mind) South of the Mason-Dixon line does not a Southerner make.
Your example, refutes itself. Obviously a Revolution against the long standing societal values--which the Bolshevik revolution was--is a repudiation of heritage. The Army of Northern Virginia, which is what that Confederate emblem remembers, was absolutely steeped in Virginia heritage, from its brilliant leader (General Lee) himself the son of one of Washington's principle Lieutenants, and the nephew of another, on down through the ranks.
You choose to emphasize the system of labor in Virginia at the time, but that is hardly the defining issue. As I have pointed out before, trying to make the issue simply over one's present day view of a past system would be akin to telling English school boys that they could not honor the tradition of Richard, "The Lion Hearted," without being accused of planning to restore serfdom, and go off to a religious war, after padlocking the loins of all the young women.
In my opinion, your preoccupation with slavery--which no one is advocating--is ridiculous. Certainly, Booker T. Washington, the great Negro educator, who wrote the classic "Up From Slavery," was not advocating slavery when he honored his shared Southern heritage with his Caucasian neighbors. And how do you distinguish the Confederate period from the earlier history of the State and of America in general, if you want to make slavery some sort of litmus test?
William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site
"But I grew up in Alabama, and I know what type people used to obsess about "th' South risin' agin'!"
" They were typically losers."
I suspect that many of those who object to the Confederate flag are typical losers.
I lived in New York City and New Jersey some years ago and was astounded at the anti-South prejudice many people displayed (there were more nice people though).
OK..... But will the liberals now drag this into the Supreme Court?
Half-wits have rights, too.
Well stated.
I'm from Virginia, and when I was a college half-wit I used to really hate the South. Then I did an internship with some Harvard students, and saw the error of my ways.
In Japan, chitterlings are known as motsu. They're pretty good cooked in miso sauce and served on rice with chopped scallions and Tabasco sauce.
I disagree with everything you have said so far. But I strongly support your right to to say it. So it is with the plates. Score a big one for the 1st Amendment.
What really needs to happen is that the states need to get out of the business of theme plates. A monster has been created and all it does is invite censorship. If they weren't such an easy source of revenue, they would be gone.
I'm from the South, and I understand it. Most of those Southerners with an acute inferiority complex embrace it. The rest of us are adults.
I'm from the South AND I'm an adult. I am not racist but my family's ancestors fought in this unconstitutional action forced upon us by the North. To my knowledge no one in my or my wife's family owned slaves but they believed in the right of the citizen and the state in which they lived to determine the best course of action for the growth and profitability of said state.
Now that does not mean slavery which is an abhorrent and horrible idea. What it does mean is choosing who offers the best price for your product and selling to the highest bidder, not being forced to sell to a neighboring state so that state can make money off your product while cutting you out of the profits.
The war of Northern Aggression was one of the first truly economic wars nothing more, nothing less
Then let's have the Swastika. "Nazis are people, too".
Oh, thank Goodness, Illbay knows which of us deserve to have their opinions and those who don't.
Illbay, it is precisely those people who have opinions that are despised by the majority that NEED to be defended. In case you forgot, that's what Liberty and Free Speech are all about. (And that's the Left's best weapon in taking away our Freedoms).
If my neighbor wants to fly a KKK symbol on her front lawn, then she should be allowed to, without legal ramifications. Now, I'm going to be sure to tell her she's a twit every time I see her getting her mail, and that's my right as well. Once she goes and lights a cross on my lawn, THEN you send her ass to jail.
See the difference? Freedom to have asinine opinions, thoughts and symbols... but not to assault persons or their property. Got it? Hate is NOT a crime (for the moment) no matter how your amazingly short-sighted heart feels about it inside.
And by the way, I think it's rather pernicious the way you refer to the Confederate flag and "other symbols of hate"... Guess what, flags symbolize pride in history, fraternity, and community, not emotions, no matter how often your TV tells you otherwise.
I know you espouse Constitutional principles in this forum, but I so rarely see you being able to back it up when it comes to those you disagree with. I wonder sometimes if you're not more dangerous than the Lefties I'm so angry with.
Illbay, if you will let the south have their vanity plate I won't complain about yours.:)
WarHawk42
The license plate simply had the symbol of a "Confederate Flag". They claimed that would forment "hate" toward southerners, and lead to more racial hatred.
Needless to say, their suit was laughed out of court.
Illbay says: "Like I say, I can't generalize to all situations and people. But I grew up in Alabama, and I know what type people used to obsess about "th' South risin' agin'!" They were typically losers."
Sounds like generalizing a situation and people.
I'm from Virginia, and when I was a college half-wit I used to really hate the South.
Public education makes half-wits of us all. Fortunately, some of us contunue to learn, grow, and, eventually, discover the truth, in spite of it. LOL.
I had an anti-South bias too, until I studied the Civil War era on my own. Needless to say, the scales fell from my eyes.
Illbay is still behind that learning curve, unfortunately.
LOL. Well done.
You obviously got here by mistake.Make this move to get back where you belong.
...Then let's have the Swastika. Nazi's are people too...
Yes. Let's do have the Swastika for Buddhists and those Sumerians who still can manage to drive a car after all these years.
The Swastika was around long before Mr. Hitler besmirched it.
Obviously, the symbology is not the problem here. People are simply opposed to this group using their chosen symbol in public because it offends some. Freedom OF speech folks!! Not freedom FROM speech!!
BTW, are you anti-Scottish and have something against the St. Andrews cross on the Confederate Battle Flag???? ;-P
Now that I have a 19" Monitor, I can clearly see who posted each message, thus IIIIbay's posts are unread by me if more than 2 or 3 words for laughs.
And as for this:
.....Oh Lord, I must have some Southern Blood in my veins?
Since some view the flag with hatred and others with love, the flag itself isn't good, bad, wrong or evil,...
When I was first born, in 1957, my father was an officer in the Army. Just after my birth, we moved to Germany where my father was stationed for the next four years, near Stuttgart.
We hired a "nanny" for me, an older German woman called Frau G___. She was a very sweet lady, my mother tells me, perfectly devoted to her job as my caregiver, very soft spoken, polite to a fault, and kind.
She was, however, ardently devoted to the memory of der Fuehrer, Adold Hitler. Nothing that anyone could say would sway her from that devotion. She remembered his rise to power when she was a young housewife, and how she and all her family had thrilled to hear him speak on the radio. Once, he even came to Stuttgart to give one of his potboiler speeches.
"The people were downtrodden, and he gave them hope again," she would say. Her husband and son were killed in the war, and she still had some of the medals and other memorabilia from their service, though she had to keep them quietly hidden as I think it must have been illegal to own some of those things.
This woman was, as I said, sweet and kind and very devoted to my family. And she was also completely, totally bamboozled, misled and closed-minded about anything negative that could be said about Adolf Hitler.
Since some view the flag with hatred and others with love, the flag itself isn't good, bad, wrong or evil,...
When I was first born, in 1957, my father was an officer in the Army. Just after my birth, we moved to Germany where my father was stationed for the next four years, near Stuttgart.
We hired a "nanny" for me, an older German woman called Frau G___. She was a very sweet lady, my mother tells me, perfectly devoted to her job as my caregiver, very soft spoken, polite to a fault, and kind.
She was, however, ardently devoted to the memory of der Fuehrer, Adold Hitler. Nothing that anyone could say would sway her from that devotion. She remembered his rise to power when she was a young housewife, and how she and all her family had thrilled to hear him speak on the radio. Once, he even came to Stuttgart to give one of his potboiler speeches.
"The people were downtrodden, and he gave them hope again," she would say. Her husband and son were killed in the war, and she still had some of the medals and other memorabilia from their service, though she had to keep them quietly hidden as I think it must have been illegal to own some of those things.
This woman was, as I said, sweet and kind and very devoted to my family. And she was also completely, totally bamboozled, misled and closed-minded about anything negative that could be said about Adolf Hitler.
I am all for the Bill of Rights. I am all for individuals being able to say whatever they want to say of a political nature, even if it is offensive.
But while I may prize all men's rights the same, I don't weigh the CONTENT of what one man says the same as another.
Why are you so insecure when something negative is said?
As I said previously, MY EXPERIENCE with "Confederacy worshipers" in the South is that almost uniformly are loud, boisterous louts. They typically have not much of substance to say, merely mouthing catch-all slogans, and talk about "Southern pride".
The secession was 90% about the preservation of slavery, but they don't want to understand that. You show them the actual words penned by those who seceded from the Union, from South Carolina, or Mississippi, or Georgia, and they respond by calling you all sorts of filthy names.
I'm pretty much tired of them, and realize they have little to contribute except obnoxiousness. Hence my feelings about the Confederacy is considerably muted compared to theirs.
Actually THINKING about issues tends to do that.
This woman was, as I said, sweet and kind and very devoted to my family. And she was also completely, totally bamboozled, misled and closed-minded about anything negative that could be said about Adolf Hitler.
Kind of like those who think FDR was the greatest thing since ice cream huh? Now what does that have to do with the confederate flag? Are you trying to say swastika=confederate flag?
Try all you want you cannot rewrite history. The confederacy is in no way comparable to the nazi's. You only show your own lack of understanding when you try to make that connection.
WarHawk42
She taught you well !
The Army of Northern Virginia, which is what that Confederate emblem remembers, was absolutely steeped in Virginia heritage, from its brilliant leader (General Lee) himself the son of one of Washington's principle Lieutenants, and the nephew of another, on down through the ranks.
Nevertheless, they fought to maintain slavery in Virginia.
Here is a passage from the declaration of Virginia's secession on May 23, 1861:
The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States... ... do ... declare, That said Constitution of the United States of America is no longer binding on any of the citizens of this State.So these people simply wanted to nullify the U.S. Constitution, in order to right the wrong of the "oppression of the Slave-holding States", Virginia included.
It was about slavery. In every declaration of Secession, slavery takes a prominent place.
I simply don't consider that to be part of my "heritage", although it is part of my family's history. I may have had forebears who thought slavery was a cause worth fighting for; I don't.
I should they have to? Just because you do not like the tag!