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Taste Feature
House Divided: Did Abe
Have The Right Stuff?Maybe it's a Yankee thing. Much as I admire the original George W., the conglomeration of his and Lincoln's births into a single, generic "President's Day" reminds me of one of those infelicitous Wall Street mergers where they don't know quite what to call the new beast.
de gustibus
By William McGurnOr maybe it's the revenge of the South. The reputations of Dead White Males being what they are today, few Americans would likely be shocked by a school of thought that claims our 16th president was a "monster," "racist," "dictator" or "war criminal" who practically invented "ethnic cleansing." But you can't blame the loony left for this one. For this all comes from a loose confederacy (pun definitely intended) of Southern Agrarian conservatives and aggrieved libertarians who see in Lincoln not the president who saved the Republic but the one who destroyed it.
Clearly Lincoln's crude jokes about blacks and his belief that the two races could never live together in peace suggest a man falling somewhat short of the sainthood bestowed upon him by Carl Sandburg and popular myth. And the indictments against the Lincoln presidency are worthy of serious debate: his suspension of habeas corpus, his support for tariffs, his expansion of the federal government during the war, etc. I mean only to note, on this Lincoln's birthday weekend, that the intemperance that seems endemic to Lincoln revisionism tends to harm rather than further its cause.
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In 1981, for example, Mel Bradford of the University of Dallas was Ronald Reagan's pick to head the National Endowment for the Humanities. It quickly emerged, however, that Bradford had championed a view of Lincoln as "dishonest," an "American Caesar" and "pseudo-Puritan" guilty of grave duplicity.
That doesn't make Bradford evil, or denigrate his literary credentials. But clearly Mr. Reagan appreciated the incongruity of a Republican president from Illinois appointing to a prominent position in his administration a man who confessed in a page-one New York Times profile that "in 1860 I would have been a Stephen Douglas Democrat." The result of this intellectual Pickett's charge was Mr. Reagan's retreat from Bradford -- and the appointment of Bill Bennett.
It's important here, of course, to distinguish between those, like the denizens of LewRockwell.com, who believe with all their hearts that the last, best hope for earth was in fact the Stars and Bars -- and those, like Trent Lott or John Ashcroft, who belong to that larger category of Southerners who can't help themselves when they hear the strains of "Dixie" and do silly things like granting interviews to the journal Southern Partisan that inevitably come back to haunt them.
Not least of the delicious ironies here is that, at a time when the publication of a book in Mr. Reagan's own hand has even old liberals conceding that they were wrong about the Gipper's smarts, this branch of conservatism is stuck with a Reagan who is either a dummy or as duplicitous as Dishonest Abe himself. Pretty hard to explain away the line in Mr. Reagan's First Inaugural Address that "whoever would understand in his heart the meaning of America will find it in the life of Abraham Lincoln."
Still, the greatest weakness in this revisionism is the most obvious, the idea that slavery would somehow have solved itself. That's a pretty big "if." Certainly neither Lincoln nor Jefferson Davis thought slavery would wither away; the expansion into the western territories that occasioned the split was rightly seen by both sides as essential to its continuation. Robert Fogel, a Nobel Prize-winning economist, has written two books making plain that slavery was in fact economically viable. To Lincoln, an expanding slave-based South was fine for the elites, but it threatened the free-wage system that to his mind represented American opportunity and upward mobility.
The bargain struck in 1789, on Lincoln's reading, was to have circumscribed slavery and left it on the road to extinction. But by Lincoln's own day the Republic idealized by the South was not that of Jefferson but of Calhoun, with slavery elevated from a necessary evil or accident of history into a positive reflection of the natural order. Far from revealing his insincerity and lack of scruples, Lincoln's measured response in, say, the Emancipation Proclamation demonstrates his Whiggish understanding that prudence was the consummate virtue for politicians aiming to resolve contentious moral questions.
In Lincoln's view this new Southern consensus was aggressive, changing everything and testing whether America as conceived could long endure. And as long as we are all being strict constructionists here, is it not asking a great deal to bless a secession that came not because Southern voters didn't like the Union but because they didn't like the results of an election in which they had participated? If our conservative Lincoln revisionists are right, Al Gore had a better case in Florida than we thought.
Lincoln's measured response in, say, the Emancipation
Proclamation demonstrates his Whiggish understanding that prudence was the consummate virtue for politicians aiming to resolve contentious moral
questions.
Somhow come Abe ONLY freed the slaves in the seceded states and not the north ( Thus General Grant was able to keep his until the constitution was amended}
If our conservative Lincoln revisionists are right, Al Gore
had a better case in Florida than we thought.
I don't kmow about that but I am all for allowing NY, California, Massachucetts etal to secede
But by Lincoln's own day the Republic idealized by the South was not that of Jefferson but of Calhoun, with slavery elevated from a necessary evil or accident of history into a positive reflection of the natural order. Far from revealing his insincerity and lack of scruples, Lincoln's measured response in, say, the Emancipation Proclamation demonstrates his Whiggish understanding that prudence was the consummate virtue for politicians aiming to resolve contentious moral questions.
The position of Calhoun etc. was an unfortunate reflection of the degeneracy of the initial idealism of the Republic, as both North and South avoided firmly dealing with the substantive issues involved. But Lincoln's left- Whiggism was really more Democratic-Republican in its more universalist/abstract view of the declaration. And prudence was hardly the nature of Lincoln's intemperate "A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" speech, which was the real cause of the division, not his election.
Talk about misinterpreting Florida! If Gore had won, say after the first machine recount, but then had resolved to unilaterally and completely alter all our voting laws along the lines of what say Jackson and Daley wanted, the "red zone" would have been justified succession too.
Never trust those WSJ pubbies.
Lincoln predated FDR, JFK, and WJC...
He would have been emperor...
I don't care what party he represented or whether or not slavery was OK at the time,
he only 'freed' those who he thought might revolt in the South and he wanted to eject their kin from the North...
Gee, whatta guy.
It would be nice to believe that the institution of slavery would have died of it's own weight and inequities within a few years and a few additional square miles of desert.
It would also be well to remember that many of 'our' white western european ancestors got here as indentured servants - otherwise known as willing slaves - and that what we now define as racism is hardly isolated to their off spring.
Lincoln is a great historical personna, and as such we will have the Lincoln lovers and haters on each side. Lincoln lovers can cite his many good conservative type sayings, Lincoln haters also have much to choose from.
I think it is important to carefully study his times carefully before you make a judgement on the man and what he represented. Both the Lincoln haters and lovers caricature and oversimpify the man. Lincoln willingly became a symbol of a cetain vision of our country. Try history must appeciate this, but must try to divulge the real truth behind the symbol.
The bargain struck in 1789, on Lincoln's reading, was to have circumscribed slavery and left it on the road to extinction.
That'd be the Ordinance of 1789, engraved in the stone of Lincoln's Cooper Union speech.
Slavery in the United States was indeed on the road to extinction; however, Eli Whitney's development of the cotton gin made it feasible to grow cotton (long variety) in the noncoastal Southern states, where previously, only the short variety was grown in limited Southern coastal areas.
Slavery then became a more attractive economic temptation, and the expanding, cotton-gin-driven agribusiness took with it the slave-labor system into the noncoastal plantations, and hence promulgated slavery.
bttt
Matthew 12:25 “And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:”
>>I don't kmow about that but I am all for allowing NY, California, Massachucetts etal to secede<<
"Allowing"? I'm not all that far from insisting.
Not really, considering that both Houses of Florida's legislature are Republican controlled.
Lincoln's Economic Legacy
by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
[February 9, 2001]
Americans have been led to believe that when they celebrate Abraham Lincoln’s birthday each year on February 12 they are celebrating freedom, the preservation of the union, and a reaffirmation of the principles of the Declaration of Independence. This belief is a testament to the notion that in war the victors get to write the history.
Lincoln will probably be forever known as the "Great Emancipator" because of the Emancipation Proclamation. But every Lincoln scholar knows something that few Americans are aware of: The Emancipation Proclamation freed no one, because it specifically exempted those areas of the southern states that were at the time under the control of the federal armies while allowing slavery to exist in the "loyal" border states of Maryland and Kentucky and in Washington, D.C. itself.
"The principle [of the Proclamation] is not that a human being cannot justly own another," the London Spectator observed on October 11, 1862, "but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States" government.
As Lincoln stated in a famous, August 22, 1862 letter to New York Tribune editor Horace Greeley, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
The Emancipation Proclamation was a propaganda strategy designed to deter England from supporting the Confederacy. It came as a complete surprise to most
Northerners, who thought they were fighting and dying by the tens of thousands to preserve the union. As a result, there were draft riots in New York City; a desertion crisis was created in the U.S. army, with some 200,000 deserters, according to historian Gary Gallagher; and war bond sales plummeted. According to James McPherson, the "dean" of "Civil War" historians, Union soldiers "were willing to risk their lives for the Union, but not for black freedom . . . . They professed to feel betrayed."
Slavery was ended in 1866 with the Thirteenth Amendment, but at the cost of 620,000 lives; hundreds of thousands more that were crippled for life; and the near destruction of almost half the nation’s economy. By contrast, dozens of other countries (including Argentina, Colombia, Chile, all of Central America, Mexico, Bolivia, Uruguay, the French and Danish colonies, Ecuador, Peru, and Venezuela) ended slavery peacefully during the first 60 years of the nineteenth century. Why not the U.S.?
Lincoln may have "saved" the Union in a geographic sense, but his war destroyed the union defined as a voluntary association of states. Forcing a state to remain in the union at gunpoint renders that state a conquered province, not a genuine partner. This was the overwhelming sentiment of Northern opinion makers at the outset of the war.
As Horace Greeley wrote on March 21, 1861: "The great principle embodied by Jefferson in the Declaration is that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed." If southerners wanted to secede, "they have a clear right to do so." "Nine out of ten of the people of the North," Greeley wrote, were opposed to forcing South Carolina to remain in the Union.
As of 1857, writes Roy Basler, the editor of Lincoln’s Collected Works, Lincoln had rarely ever mentioned the issue of slavery, and even then, "when he spoke of respecting the Negro as a human being, his words lacked effectiveness." What did preoccupy Lincoln’s mind throughout his twenty-eight year political career prior to becoming president was the political agenda of the Whig Party and of the man whom he revered most in life, the Kentucky slaveowner Henry Clay, whom Lincoln eulogized in 1852 as "the great parent of Whig principles" and "the fount from which my own political views flowed."
And those political views were clearly stated by Lincoln when he first ran for the Illinois legislature in 1832: "My politics are short and sweet, like the old woman’s dance. I am in favor of a national bank . . . in favor of the internal improvements system and a high protective tariff." These three things -- protectionism, government subsidies to railroad and canal-building companies, and central banking -- were called the "American System" by Henry Clay. Economists have another word for them: "mercantilism."
Murray Rothbard accurately defined mercantilism as "a system of statism which employed economic fallacy to build up a structure of imperial state power, as well as special subsidy and monopolistic privilege to individuals or groups favored by the state." This is what Lincoln devoted his entire political career to achieving. He was a master politician who once told a friend that his career ambition was to be "the DeWitt Clinton of Illinois." DeWitt Clinton was the notoriously corrupt governor of New York who is credited with inventing the spoils system.
The so-called American System of mercantilism could only be implemented by a highly centralized government of the sort that the U.S. Constitution attempted to deter. That’s why it could only be put into place by force of arms, which it was. As soon as Lincoln maneuvered the South Carolinians into firing the first shot (at a customs house, Fort Sumter) tariff rates were immediately raised to an average of 47 percent and higher, and remained historically high for decades after the war.
During the war Lincoln established a number of tyrannical precedents, including unconstitutionally conducting a war without the consent of Congress; suspending habeas corpus; conscripting railroads and censoring telegraph lines; imprisoning without trial some 30,000 northern citizens for merely voicing opposition to the war; deporting a member of Congress, Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio, for opposing Lincoln’s income tax proposal at a Democratic Party political rally; shutting down hundreds of Northern newspapers and imprisoning their editors for questioning his war policies; ordering federal troops to intimidate voters into voting Republican; and intentionally waging war against civilians.
The second plank of the American System of mercantilism, central banking, was achieved with the National Currency Acts of 1863 and 1864, and there was a virtual explosion of government subsidies to railroads and other businesses that bankrolled the Republican Party. The inevitable consequence was the notorious corruption of the Grant administrations.
In 1861 Senator John Sherman, brother of General William Tecumseh Sherman and a major power in the Republican Party, announced that "Those who elected Mr. Lincoln expect him to secure to free labor its just right to the Territories of the United States; to protect . . . by wise revenue laws, the labor of our people; to secure the public lands to actual settlers . . . ; to develop the internal resources of the country by opening new means of communications between the Atlantic and Pacific."
Translating from the politician’s idiom into plain English, this meant that Lincoln’s main objective was always protectionism for Northern manufacturers; buying votes with cheap federal land sales; and the purchase of even more votes and campaign contributions through a massive spoils system created by government subsidies to the railroad industry. The corrupt political strategy of DeWitt Clinton writ large is Abraham Lincoln’s true economic legacy.
--------------
Thomas DiLorenzo is a professor of economics in the Sellinger School of Business and Management at Loyola College in Baltimore. See his archive, read an interview with the author, or send him MAIL.
See also Joseph Stromberg's classic article, The War for Southern
Independence: A Radical Libertarian Perspective
There is no question that Lincoln presided over the destruction of Our Constitutional Republic as set forth by the Founding Fathers and in its stead created a centralised monster state of his own conception. The snowball effect of what he set in motion will culminate in a new slavery that will be infinitely more pernicious than anything he was ostensibly dealing with. The "ignornant masses" will cooperate willingly and glady.
They were doing all right until they got to this:
"And as long as we are all being strict constructionists here, is it not asking a great deal to bless a secession that came not because Southern voters didn't like the Union but because they didn't like the results of an election in which they had participated.
This is disingenuous. Lincoln got no votes in the coming Confederacy. He was elected with about 30% of the vote. This can hardly be called "participating in the election".
as lincoln was anti-Roman Catholic, anti-Semitic, anti-black,anti-immigrant, anti- Indian, anti-Asian, anti-Latino, etc, i find NOTHING to admire about him.
had he not been elected in 1860, the WBTS might have been put off long enough for the south to strengthen it's industrial base to WIN independence.
the union we have now is and always has been a BAD marriage; the solution is DIVORCE.
free the south NOW, sw
So what? You don't think the US is divided today? You think using force is better than seperating and living in peace? My relatives and I have been held captive of the US Federal governement now for over 135 years! WHY CAN'T we be left alone to live in peace??
I was just getting ready to read Thomas J. DiLorenzo's piece on LewRockwell.com, but I'm glad to see it posted here. Lincoln was a monster, moreso than WJClinton, really. We should all be working at a plan to do what Lincoln prevented- breaking the US up into smaller administrative units that can set their own policies and control their own affairs. DC is too corrupt to be reformed- secession is the only option, in fact.
It's important here, of course, to distinguish between those, like the denizens of LewRockwell.com, who believe with all their hearts that the last, best hope for earth was in fact the Stars and Bars -- and those, like Trent Lott or John Ashcroft, who belong to that larger category of Southerners who can't help themselves when they hear the strains of "Dixie" and do silly things like granting interviews to the journal Southern Partisan that inevitably come back to haunt them.
No such thing as bad publicity. I bet this little WSJ absurdity is taxing poor Lew's bandwidth. Heh. Of course, as everyone knows, the only thing wrong with LewRockwell.com is that Lew still publishes Gary North, who, surprisingly, has found the courage to emerge from his Y2K Apocalypse hidey hole and, unsurprisingly, is behaving as if he never made a fool of himself over the issue.
as lincoln was anti-Roman Catholic, anti-Semitic, anti-black,anti-immigrant, anti- Indian, anti-Asian, anti-Latino, etc, i find NOTHING to admire about him.
I hope you are being ironic. Lincoln was far less any of these things than most people of the time. Look at his speeches. He wasn't obsessed about race or ethnicity to the extent people are today, but he did his best, given the limits imposed by the attitudes of the day, to treat other groups more "fairly". Those looking for "anti" sentiments in his day, will find them far, far, far more violently expressed elsewhere. Why after all, was Lincoln a Republican and not a member of the Democratic or American ("Know-Nothing") party?
As for Lincoln's economics, hadn't most of his policies been tried before by Whigs or Federalists? I can understand the revulsion against the Civil War, which brought violence and centralization to a new level, but does anyone really think that without Lincoln we would be living in a libertarian world? Even without the catastrophe of civil war, the state has increased its power in other countries. The Civil War was something like our French Revolution -- a time of violence and concentrated, arbitrary power that has left lasting scars. But there are other episodes of violence and sources of centralizing power in American history and life.
Also, do we really want the nation to be broken up into smaller units? I can understand the emotion behind this idea, but what guarantee is there that the smaller units will be better run or freer than the whole is now? Or that the process wouldn't continue to other secessions and divisions? There are also costs and frictions involved in living in smaller states. Some have said that if the country had broken up, it would have found its way back together by now.
Like almost all commentators on this subject, McGurn gets it wrong from the start by his implicit assumption that the Civil War was fought over slavery.
Pre-Lincoln, we said, "the United States are.....", post-Lincoln, we say, "The United States is....". This is the best one sentence explanation I have ever heard about what Lincoln did to our Constitution. Old Abe would have easily identified with Clinton's Presidency, except, of course, for the sexual immorality and money grubbing.
And prudence was hardly the nature of Lincoln's intemperate "A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" speech, which was the real cause of the division, not his election.
====================================
That speech was the case of the civil war? Could you elaborate a bit on that?
I've always seen the war as essentially a constitutional matter. The southern states asseted that they could ignore the constitution & BOR's when it suited their purposes. The war & the 14th amendment has resolved that issue.
But there is nothing in the constitution to prevent a state from demanding that the federal government ALSO abide by the constitution. The supreme court is the proper place to fight for states rights.
If the clear intent of the constitution is ignored by the SCOTUS, then other measures are justified.
So what? You don't think the US is divided today? You think using force is better than seperating and living in peace? My relatives and I have been held captive of the US Federal governement now for over 135 years! WHY CAN'T we be left alone to live in peace??
====================================
The divisions in the US are apparent on this board.
How about getting enough people together in one state to challenge in court this federal monster we have ALL created?
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration"--Abraham Lincoln, Annual Message to Congress Dec 3,1861
Or maybe it's the revenge of the South. The reputations of Dead White Males being what they are today, few Americans would likely be shocked by a school of thought that claims our 16th president was a "monster," "racist," "dictator" or "war criminal" who practically invented "ethnic cleansing." But you can't blame the loony left for this one. For this all comes from a loose confederacy (pun definitely intended) of Southern Agrarian conservatives and aggrieved libertarians who see in Lincoln not the president who saved the Republic but the one who destroyed it.
Let's add Socialist Extraordinaire to the fine list given above. Lincoln wanted to be rid of the slave problem by moving them out of America(racist and ethnic cleansing),he ursurped the powers given to him in the Constitution(dictator and war criminal) and from his own mouth he gives us his political slant. This is one man that will never be respected or honored in my household
Lincoln was a politician. You're all debating his character as if there could BE a good politician. If you choose to work for a system which pays you with money it takes at gun point, you are bad. It hardly matters if you're Republican, Democrat, Whig, Communist, Libertarian. It all comes down to the same thing in the end. A class of folks who like being able to tell you how to live your life, and use YOUR labor to enforce THEIR rules.
We should all be working at a plan to do what Lincoln prevented- breaking the US up into smaller administrative units that can set their own policies and control their own affairs. DC is too corrupt to be reformed- secession is the only option, in fact.
Here, here! I just don't get where people seem to think that only through a bigger, more powerful central government will we be free. The opposite, in fact, seems obviously true to me. I don't i even like your "smaller administrative units" concept. I say break up the U.S.A. into many independent republics who may or may not have cooperative agreements with each other. How can a people who are not free to disassociate be considered free?
That speech was the case of the civil war? Could you elaborate a bit on that?
Lincoln you note, stated that the nation could not continue, half slave and half free. Either slavery would expand to encompass the entire nation, or it would be abolished. Fundamentally what Lincoln was calling for here was a war to abolish slavery, and overturn the results of the various compromises, both in the original constitution and later legislative compromises, which had allowed varying interpretations of the issue by different states. Thus he and his northern supporters, not the South, first declared their intention to abrogate the original constitution and power sharing agrrements which had allowed differing views on this civil rights issue to coexist within our nation, and fundamentally set the nation on the path to division and/or civil war.
I've always seen the war as essentially a constitutional matter. The southern states asseted that they could ignore the constitution & BOR's when it suited their purposes. The war & the 14th amendment has resolved that issue.
See above on who ignored the constitution. The right of secession BTW had long been asserted by Jefferson and the Democrat-Republicans as being implicit in the Declaration itself, and is really actualy hard to ignore.
But there is nothing in the constitution to prevent a state from demanding that the federal government ALSO abide by the constitution. The supreme court is the proper place to fight for states rights. If the clear intent of the constitution is ignored by the SCOTUS, then other measures are justified
Maybe you could clarify yourself here. The Supreme Court is the proper place to fight for states right, but only if it respects "the clear intent" of the constitution, i.e. decides things your way. If it doesn't like the pre-civil war SCOTUS did with Plessey vs. Ferguson, are you justified in abolishing Habeous Corpus, jailing Confederate supporters without charges, and threatening the same SCOTUS with same if they don't go along with you?
Doesn't this sound more like "ignoring" the constitution?
Lincoln's (and most other politicians') crimes go far beyond choose to work for a system which pays you with money. He (and they) use the force behind the government to stay in office, to enrich themselves, to deceive their benefactors, to make war, to help their cronies, and to perpetuate the opressive system.
1st, lincoln was a cold-hearted, emotionless racist, nothing more, nothing less. as an american indian i despise his memory, or rather legend. he would, given his violent racist character/beliefs, made a really good grand dragon.
his private correspondence, in his own hand BTW, reveals his plan to destroy the culture and ultimately the lives of ALL indians and to remove all other "undesireables" from the USA.
as for breaking this country into smaller units, i say let's get to it. i personally favor establishment of a new and free southeron republic, with freedom and liberty for all. this continent has plenty of room for Canada,Mexico,Southron Republic,Quebec & the USA.
a southron republic would have the sixth largest economy in the world, if we were free. not bad for what chuckie shumer once described as "a inbred, racist,stupid bunch of incestous crackers".
X, we are, i believe, NOT destined to be one nation for long;why not help us along by supporting a no-fault divorce.when dixie is free and independent, we can have the sort of God-fearing,armed-neutralist,conservative,strict-constructionist,FREE sort of republic of which i write and dream. the damnyankees would be able to have the godless, amoral, imperialist,meddling,marxist/socialist paradise that most of them seem to want.
who knows, in a few decades, the two countries might even become friends.
free dixie NOW, sw
well said!
I hope that you are not proposing that we try to get enough people together in one state to challenge in court this federal monster we have ALL created? We need to change the system from the bottom up, by first changing the way we think. We need to realize that we don't need the government to take care of us, and when we realize that we can, if we choose, simply deny it our permission to exist. It makes no sense to ask the government to fix itself, to admit that it (we) have been wrong all along.
bill, at least he wanted to deport the blacks; he wanted to KILL all of my race.
free dixie NOW, sw
for an okie, you are OK!
Now common. You're the one with the ancestoral Oklahoma moniker. Okie is just a term, as far as I know, popularized by disgruntled Californians.
I've always seen the war as essentially a constitutional matter. The southern states asseted that they could ignore the constitution & BOR's when it suited their purposes. The war & the 14th amendment has resolved that issue.
See above on who ignored the constitution. The right of secession BTW had long been asserted by Jefferson and the Democrat-Republicans as being implicit in the Declaration itself, and is really actualy hard to ignore.
-- Exactly! The right of secession over constitutional issues is really why the war was fought. And it was resolved, unless we resort again to further force of arms.
We agree. Thanks.
======================================
But there is nothing in the constitution to prevent a state from demanding that the federal government ALSO abide by the constitution. The supreme court is the proper place to fight for states rights. If the clear intent of the constitution is ignored by the SCOTUS, then other measures [civil disobedience / force of arms] are justified.
Maybe you could clarify yourself here. The Supreme Court is the proper place to fight for states right, but only if it respects "the clear intent" of the constitution, i.e. decides things your way.
-- 'My' way? You don't agree that federal and states rights are clearly outlined there? -- Could we agree they need further clarification? In the SCOTUS?
If it doesn't like the pre-civil war SCOTUS did with Plessey vs. Ferguson, are you justified in abolishing Habeous Corpus, jailing Confederate supporters without charges, and threatening the same SCOTUS with same if they don't go along with you?
-- Of course not. I made no such defense of Abe's actions. You know that, and are trying to confuse the issue.
-- Exactly! The right of secession over constitutional issues is really why the war was fought. And it was resolved, unless we resort again to further force of arms. We agree. Thanks.
How do you think it was "resolved", unless the resolution was negative? And could you tell me again where we agree?
I hope that you are not proposing that we try to get enough people together in one state to challenge in court this federal monster we have ALL created?
Why not? it may be the 'easiest' way to do it. States are still basically 'sovereign', as long as they adher to the constitution. A dissenting, 'runaway' state could lead a non-violent constitutional restoration or revolution, IMO, & others would follow.
We need to change the system from the bottom up, by first changing the way we think. We need to realize that we don't need the government to take care of us, and when we realize that we can, if we choose, simply deny it our permission to exist. It makes no sense to ask the government to fix itself, to admit that it (we) have been wrong all along.
You are preaching to the choir here. We all realise the federal government will NEVER fix itself. -- My proposal is at least do-able. What's yours?
-- Exactly! The right of secession over constitutional issues is really why the war was fought. And it was resolved, unless we resort again to further force of arms. We agree. Thanks.
How do you think it was "resolved", unless the resolution was negative?
See my previous post on the 14th.
And could you tell me again where we agree?
My first line, quoted here above, explains that, to me. How are you confused?
-- Exactly! The right of secession over constitutional issues is really why the war was fought. And it was resolved, unless we resort again to further force of arms. We agree. Thanks.
[How do you think it was "resolved", unless the resolution was negative? ]
See my previous post on the 14th.
Okay
I've always seen the war as essentially a constitutional matter. The southern states asseted that they could ignore the constitution & BOR's when it suited their purposes. The war & the 14th amendment has resolved that issue.
In other words the war "resolved" the right of secession issue, and the fourteenth amendment "resolved" the right of Southern States to ignore what the Federal government, or whoever says they are the federal government and has the support of its military, says the constitution means (and BOR's, what is that abreviation?). It resolved it by saying if you try to ignore constitutional liberties in your state we'll sic the 14th on you, and if you don't abide by ther court ruling we'll unleash military terror a la Sherman on you.
Tell me if and where I'm misinterpreting you.
"I've always seen the war as essentially a constitutional matter. The southern states asseted that they could ignore the constitution & BOR's when it suited their purposes. The war & the 14th amendment has resolved that issue."
In other words the war "resolved" the right of secession issue, and the fourteenth amendment "resolved" the right of Southern States to ignore what the Federal government, or whoever says they are the federal government and has the support of its military, says the constitution means (and BOR's, what is that abreviation?). It resolved it by saying if you try to ignore constitutional liberties in your state we'll sic the 14th on you, and if you don't abide by ther court ruling we'll unleash military terror a la Sherman on you.
Tell me if and where I'm misinterpreting you.
======================================
Your whole rant is misinterpretation, & an exaggeration. You know that.
Why don't you address my idea for a fight for states rights in the SCOTUS? Any communitarian hype on that?
[Tell me if and where I'm misinterpreting you.] ======================================
Your whole rant is misinterpretation, & an exaggeration. You know that.
But you can't tell me where or how, as usual.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just posted that verse to show that it was not Lincoln who invented the “house divided” metaphor. I comes from the Bible.
I grew up in the Occupied South. Most of the public schools down there are now being controlled by federal courts under something I think they call “standing court orders”, left over from the ‘60s and ‘70s. School superintendents must have their various programs approved by out of state Circuit Court judges. It’s sort of a new “reconstruction period” in the schools now.
I live in a part of the country now that’s slowly being invaded by Mexico.
All ready did, our at least as much as is possible, given your limitations.. Thanks again..
I was talking about the "house divided" speech too in 4 etc. It is true that Lincoln was apt at using the biblical metaphor when it suited his purpose, but as is always the case, using Christ's biblical language about his spiritual kingdom to a flesh and blood political situation produces despotism. Take for instance the "I shall drive out thy enemies with a rod of iron". Stephan Douglas in the debates noted that this "House divided" metaphor has always been one of the chief metaphor's of choice for tyrants everywhere to get rid of their enemies.
You always return to the ad hominem eventually.
NOPE, not true-it was popular in OK in the 20's when my dad was a child in the nation. he was from delaware county.
gee, how awful!
my home state (TX)is and has been invaded by Mexico for a rather longtime now, with few real ill effects.
what is it about God-fearing, politically conservative, 2nd amendment-supporting, pro-life, predominately Catholic & Baptist immigrants, that is cause for concern?
my beautiful, educated,conservative,hard-working,ambitious adopted daughter is a citizen of Mexico. would that we had MORE like her and LESS of the arrogant, ignorant, ill- and/or un-educated,lazy,whining,socialist,hatefilled,native-born damnyankees in this country.
perhaps we could work out a swap-we'd resettle all the meddling, socialist, anti-american, damnyankees in their country (and pay Mexico to KEEP them! NOBODY would take them otherwise!)and import a whole bunch like my daughter, that wouldn't whine, would work,pay taxes,support life, etc.,etc.,etc.
free dixie NOW,sw
perhaps we could work out a swap-we'd resettle all the meddling, socialist, anti-american, damnyankees in their country (and pay Mexico to KEEP them! NOBODY would take them otherwise!)and import a whole bunch like my daughter, that wouldn't whine, would work,pay taxes,support life, etc.,etc.,etc.
That sounds like a very good idea.
If you are familiar with the debates, are you familiar with Lincoln’s use of the “N” word?
even this "educated trailer-park trash" gets a GOOD idea from time to time!
Lincoln’s use of the “N” word?
Just heard about them second hand really. It doesn't surprise me really, but its anachronistic to make comparisons about words over different time periods. Words just change their meaning over time. Its no fairer to automatically impugne Abe Lincoln for the "N" word than it is Mark Twain. The context is what's important.
I’m not trying to impugn Lincoln for his use of the “n” word. I just think it’s an interesting and obscure fact of history that has been covered up by the media. I think he used it in a way so he could appear to “relate” to the redneck racists in his audiences. He didn’t use it in an insulting manner, he just said to his audience that his interest in freeing the slaves did not mean he wanted “to go out and marry a ‘n*****’”.
I doubt that W would have any problem at all with the secession of New York, California, and Massachusetts!.
I just think it’s an interesting and obscure fact of history that has been covered up by the media. I think he used it in a way so he could appear to “relate” to the redneck racists in his audiences. He didn’t use it in an insulting manner, he just said to his audience that his interest in freeing the slaves did not mean he wanted “to go out and marry a ‘n*****’”.
Well it is a generally acknowledged fact that in his debates he played to the audience. Douglas noted this, and pointed in the debates how different Lincoln was addressing slavery and blacl ("n") issues when speaking in Chicago as opposed to Carbondale or Cairo.
I think talot of times southron conservatives and copperheads draw the wrong lessons from this though, just as they draw the wrong lessons from the fact that Senator Robert Byrd and Justice Hugo Black once belonged to the Klan. Conservatism has always been concerned with ideals, while liberalism has been concerned with power. That's incidently why the South lost (and conservatives still lose). The South clung obstinately to its ideals, while the North picked the relatively moderate Lincoln to assuage swing voters and states. They don't care about a persons ideals, just as long as he acts they way they wants to and furthers their interests.
And prudence was hardly the nature of Lincoln's intemperate "A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" speech, which was the real cause of the division, not his election.
Oh ye of little history, explain how a speech in 1857 caused the split that came to light in 1832 and blossomed in hard fact in 1850? The South and the Democrats could easily have defeated Lincoln. Abe only got 39% of the vote. The truth is, that the South planned for Lincoln to win and split the Democratic party into three for that purpose. If you don't think so, then give a read to what happened at the Democratic Conventions in 1852, 1856 and 1860. It's all right there.
Somhow come Abe ONLY freed the slaves in the seceded states and not the north
Perhaps you should read the article. The author explains it, though perhaps the sentences are too long for you, or perhaps you just skimmed over the article and posted it because you liked the title.
Lincoln predated FDR, JFK, and WJC... He would have been emperor...
Yes, Lincoln predated them, but they are not of his political lineage. Jefferson Davis was Emporer. So much so, that if you read the classic Southern boys history of Secession by the editor of the largest Newspaper in Richmond, you will find Davis referred to as 'The Tyrant'.
Davis was a Democrat.
Davis wanted blacks evenly dispersed thoughout the North.
Davis instituted the first Federal Draft in Anglo Saxon History.
Davis instituted the first direct tax in America.
The Confederacy never had a bill of rights or a Federal Court system.
Davis was never elected in an election.
Davis authorized the investigation of the personal affairs of all citizens of the South.
Davis authorized government oversight of all telegraphic communications in the South.
Davis authorized the seizure of any and all property at will by the Central government.
Davis overrode the Confederate Constitution and spent Government funds on national improvements without authorization (the cause of the Act of Nullification in 1832),
Davis embargoed all Southern exports, Davis masterminded a 150 million dollar bank fraud in April, 1860,
Davis took the Central governments money and lost it in a massive bank scheme in Europe,
Davis arrested anyone he felt like and refused to recognize Habeus Corpus whenever he felt like it for months at a time on a country wide basis,
Davis hung anyone he wanted at anytime for any reason,
Davis closed down any newspapers and sources of news he saw fit to close down.
The list goes on, but since you didn't have a clue to begin with, I will stop here.
Oh and yeah, Woodrow Wilson was the little boy who watched Davis's arrest by Federal authorities, who admired Robert E. Lee and considered the most memorable moment of his boyhood the moment when he got to shake Lee's hand when Woodrow was 14, who grem up in Columbia SC amongst the ashes left by Sherman, who studied Davis and modeled his implemtations of the Selective Service act, the IRS and the Fed after Davis's inspirations, and who bamboozeled Southern Democrats into buying into Socialist Reforms by waving aroung the old Confederate Flag from the White House.
Take you confederate trash and crawl back under your rock.
Not a single thing in this essay refutes the basic premise that, Lincoln was the beginning of the end. Just because Reagan made a political move reather that a politically stupid one doesn't refute the original facts either.
I love it when you get that blatantly ridiculous. Like the sun rising in the morning it means that 136 years of propaganda and indoctrination have failed to smother truth's light. It must leave you awfully frustrated though.
I love it when you get that blatantly ridiculous.
Except I can go the Library of Congress and pull up the documentation all day, and all you can do is cruise the garbage sites on the net.
Start with Jefferson Davis' "the Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government'. Davis was proud of what he did.
[Somehow come Abe ONLY freed the slaves in the seceded states and not the north]
Perhaps you should read the article. The author explains it, though perhaps the sentences are too long for you, or perhaps you just skimmed over the article and posted it because you liked the title.
You mean the article at the start of this thread? Maybe you could show me the relevant sections.
[And prudence was hardly the nature of Lincoln's intemperate "A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" speech, which was the real cause of the division, not his election.]
Oh ye of little history, explain how a speech in 1857 caused the split that came to light in 1832 and blossomed in hard fact in 1850? The South and the Democrats could easily have defeated Lincoln. Abe only got 39% of the vote. The truth is, that the South planned for Lincoln to win and split the Democratic party into three for that purpose. If you don't think so, then give a read to what happened at the Democratic Conventions in 1852, 1856 and 1860. It's all right there.
Of course the deep regional divisions had existed for a long time, and possibly the South might have seceeded fairly soon even if Lincoln hadn't been elected. It is hard to read Southern minds, especially not without a good more background than I have, but the real point of the Lincoln speech is that it demonstrates that Southern fears that the North planned to unleash a war on the South eventually to exert its dominance over this recalcitrant (in its view) region was accurate. It in other words demolishes the Northern claim that Lincoln unambiguously would have respected the Southern states constitutionally guaranteed self determination had the South not chosen to seceed, and that he started the war mainly to preserve the Union out of respect for the constitution, against the "rebellious" South.
As to the South easily winning, even though Lincoln only got 39% of the vote, by the quirks of the electoral college he would have still won the 1860 Presidential election even if the Democrats Party had remained united and had ended up getting every single vote that instead went for Douglas, Bell, or Breckenridge. It's hard to interpret the Democratic convention. There were hotheads that wanted to seceed at all costs in the Deep South, but there also were the border state people who seceeded, reluctantly, only when Lincoln started to raise an army.
Guess I'm attracted to garbage? I've read every word of Davis' book but I missed these claims of yours. Please reference some specific statements and the page numbers they can be found on. If you can back up what you say I'll be happy to give you your due. It will continue to look like baseless rhetoric until then.
Davis instituted the first Federal Draft in Anglo Saxon History.
Happy to see that you have corrected your earlier claim that "(i)t was the first draft n Anglo-Saxon history." As I noted then, the Anglo Saxon fyrd ("...a general levy of all able bodied men...") predated the Confederate draft by over a thousand years.
Except I can go the Library of Congress and pull up the documentation all day, and all you can do is cruise the garbage sites on the net.
Did you stumble across any references to the fyrd at the Library of Congress? Or was it brought to your attention by "confederate trash" at a ‘garbage site?'
;)
I was trying to help him understand that which you can not see. Still.
sw wishes they would!
I was trying to help him understand that which you can not see. Still.
I "can not see" the need for insults. It is somewhat like walking into a room and announcing that you can whip everyone there with one hand tied behind your back. Don't be surprised if you get your teeth handed to you - figuratively speaking, of course...
;)
Please reference some specific statements and the page numbers they can be found on.
Don't hold your breath. Our friend recently claimed that a copy of the Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union posted at a law school web site had been "doctored:" that it differed from his personal copy, which he states "was published in 1860." He apparently believes the document posted on the web site was "doctored" because "Confederate mythology has long had a stronghold in the Ivy League, thanks to Woodrow Wilson." A comparison of the supposedly "doctored" document with the version posted by The Federalist Society (associated with the University of Akron - not an "Ivy League" school, if I remember correctly) showed no differences whatsoever. When asked to document his claims, he of course declined...
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