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"I haven't told this to anybody before," said Dr. Jeremy George, senior consultant in the Department of Thoracic Medicine at London University's Middlesex Hospital. On the table in front of him were the official hospital notes of "Sir Alfred Ayer, date of birth 29/10/10, of 51 York Street, London, W1."
We were discussing the incident of June, 1988, when the eminent 77-year-old British philosopher, arguably the most influential 20th century rationalist after Bertrand Russell, famously "died" in London University Hospital. His heart stopped for four minutes when he apparently choked on a slice of smoked salmon smuggled in by a former mistress.
Three months later, while recuperating at his house in the south of France, the atheist author of Language, Truth and Logic, whose more than 50-year career was devoted to ridiculing all metaphysical statements, especially all Christian doctrine, as nonsense, wrote a lengthy article for Britain's The Sunday Telegraph, titled What I Saw When I Was Dead, about his bizarre visit to the other side and how, as a humanist philosopher, it had affected his view of death.
Ayer's article, with his vivid memory of being pulled toward a red light, "exceedingly bright, and also very painful," his encounters with the "ministers" of the universe, and his frustration as he tried to "cross the river" -- which he presumed was the Styx -- bears a very curious resemblance to similar reports of near-death experiences recalled by 63 survivors of cardiac arrest at Southampton General Hospital, and published last week in the science journal Resuscitation.
Dr. Peter Fenwick. of the Institute of Psychiatry in London, a leading consultant who was involved in the findings, said the collected data is the first medical evidence that proves the mind can continue to exist after the body is clinically dead, and that a form of afterlife is now scientifically explainable. "Those who return all report that they have been changed," he said. "Those who were religious found their faith renewed. Those who had no faith often acquired at least a belief in some form of afterlife".
However, in his article Ayer concluded his experience had done nothing to weaken his belief that there is no God. In a second article, titled Postscript to a Postmortem, Ayer added a further denial that the experience had led him to alter his secularist view that "there is no life after death".
Ayer, after all, had good reason to rebut any suggestion he had changed his atheist convictions. From the late 1940s, he had been employed by the BBC to take on such opponents as Hugh Montefiore, Bishop of Birmingham, and Jesuit priest Martin D'Arcy, a friend of Evelyn Waugh, and to broadcast his vigorously humanist views. But did intellectual pride induce Freddie -- as he was known to many -- to compromise his version of the truth of what really happened during the four minutes of his clinical death?
Last year, after I wrote a play for the Edinburgh Festival about Ayer's near death experience, I received a letter from Dr. Jeremy George, who had been senior registrar in charge of Ayer while he was in hospital. He told me he had some new information he thought I might find "very interesting."
Dr. George was the duty doctor when Ayer was first admitted on May 31, 1988, after falling seriously ill with pneumonia after a lunch at the Savoy. By a strange coincidence, Dr. George had been a student at New College, Oxford in the 1970s when Ayer was at the college as Wykeham Professor of Logic.
Although he was not taught by Ayer, Dr. George had met him. When the young doctor saw this "crumpled heap in a corner of the private wing," he immediately recognized him as Britain's most celebrated living philosopher.
"He was very pleased that somebody knew who he was" said Dr. George, "He looked very blue. His oxygen level was virtually incompatible with life."
Dr. George gave Ayer emergency oxygen and put him immediately in the intensive care unit, where his condition improved. "He would not have survived the day. I was amazed how lucid he became. I think he made a joke in Latin."
During Ayer's week in intensive care, the nurses turned a blind eye to his private supply of smoked salmon in the unit fridge provided by an old lover who left him for Graham Greene in the early 1950s but remained a close friend. Indeed, the hospital staff had to put a ban on the number of his female visitors, among them his latest girlfriend, a married Canadian woman with whom he was planning an adulterous weekend in Paris the moment he was discharged.
In the early evening of June 6, Ayer later wrote, he "carelessly tossed" a slice of salmon down this throat. Choking as it went the wrong way down, he was clinically dead for four minutes. The hospital notes state: "cardiac arrest with bradycardia, and asystole, but was resuscitated".
Having been alerted by the nurse, who administered emergency procedures, Dr. George looked down Freddie's throat. "I found a lot of secretions and sputum but the smoked salmon was a red herring. There wasn't any that I could see. But I suppose it made a better story".
In order to ascertain whether Ayer had suffered any brain damage, Professor Spiro, the senior consultant, and Dr. George then had to subject Ayer to a general knowledge quiz to test his brain.
"I think we asked him who the prime minister was, and what day was it," said Dr. George. "The answers quickly shut us up. They were all correct. He blew us out of the water. There was absolutely no brain damage. He was very lucid. I think he wanted to be asked more questions, such as the name the players of the winning football team of the First Division. We had no idea if he was making them up or not, we just assumed he got them right."
That same day, having finished his rounds, Dr. George returned to Ayer's bedside. "I came back to talk to him. Very discreetly, I asked him, as a philosopher, what was it like to have had a near-death experience? He suddenly looked rather sheepish. Then he said, 'I saw a Divine Being. I'm afraid I'm going to have to revise all my various books and opinions.'
"He clearly said 'Divine Being,'" said Dr. George. "He was confiding in me, and I think he was slightly embarrassed because it was unsettling for him as an atheist. He spoke in a very confidential manner. I think he felt he had come face to face with God, or his maker, or what one might say was God.
"Later, when I read his article, I was surprised to see he had left out all mention of it. I was simply amused. I wasn't very familiar with his philosophy at the time of the incident, so the significance wasn't immediately obvious. I didn't realize he was a logical positivist."
"I am amazed," said his widow Dee Wells, after I related the extraordinary confession Dr. George had passed on to me.
Their son, Nick Ayer, who had been with his father in hospital throughout his illness, and had slept in Ayer's private room, was also silent for a second when I told him the story, and then added: "It doesn't sound like a joke. It sounds extraordinary. He certainly never mentioned anything like that to me. I don't know what to make of it. When he first came round after he was 'dead' he said nothing of any of this. Nothing at all."
Nick said that he had long felt there was something possibly suspect about his father's version of his near death experience. "All this stuff about crossing the River Styx -- it just sounds too good to be true. There was three months between his time in hospital and when he decided to write the article in France. He never mentioned any of that business once. And I was with him all the time. I always thought it sounded more like a dream."
According to Freddie's article, his first recorded words after he came round in hospital were to exclaim to the audience gathered around his bed:
"You are all mad." But again, Nick Ayer has no recollection of ever hearing any mention of this until the piece appeared three months later.
So can Ayer's memory or his own words really be trusted? Freddie always claimed he devoted his life to the pursuit of Truth. But as Dee Wells was quick to point out when I visited her at York Street, where she has continued to live since Freddie's death, the truth could rapidly become meaningless for Freddie when it happened to suit him -- with women, for example.
Certainly it does seem very odd that Ayer, in either of his two detailed articles, did not so much as mention his conversation with Dr. George about having to rewrite all his books and works; if only -- in his usual fashion -- to dispose of it with his usual logical clarity.
According to Freddie, and his newspaper piece, the first conversation he remembered having was with his ex-lover Beatrice Tourot, who was sitting on his bed. They spoke in French, with Ayer saying: "Did you know that I was dead ? It was most extraordinary, my thoughts became persons."
Freddie was discharged from hospital on July 3, 1988. He died a year later, having remarried Dee Wells (who had been his second wife and then became his fourth). Despite declaring himself a "born-again atheist," his friends and family noticed that Freddie -- like the 63 patients interviewed for last week's report -- certainly seemed to change.
"Freddie became so much nicer after he died," said Dee. "He was not nearly so boastful. He took an interest in other people." Ayer also told the writer Edward St. Aubyn in France that he had had "a kind of resurrection" and for the first time in his life, he had begun to notice scenery. In France, on a mountain near his villa, he said, "I suddenly stopped and looked out at the sea and thought, my God, how beautiful this is ... for 26 years I had never really looked at it before."
What is also undeniably true -- and has never been reported on -- is that at the end of his life, Freddie spent more and more time with his former BBC debating opponent, the Jesuit priest and philosopher Frederick Copleston, who was at Freddie's funeral at Golders Green crematorium.
"They got closer and closer and, in the end, he was Freddie's closest friend," said Dee. "It was
quite extraordinary. As he got older, Freddie realized more and more that philosophy was just
chasing its own tail."
Does God ever get lonely, being the only God around?
Amazing, the thought of A.J. Ayer and Copleston as best friends.
Speaking as an atheist that's what it'll take for me. I'm from Missouri - you have to SHOW ME.
Very discreetly, I asked him, as a philosopher, what was it like to have had a near-death experience? He suddenly looked rather sheepish. Then he said, 'I saw a Divine Being. I'm afraid I'm going to have to revise all my various books and opinions.'
One case of smoked salmon on its way to you.
fix
at the end of his life, Freddie spent more and more time with his former BBC debating opponent, the Jesuit priest and philosopher Frederick Copleston, who was at Freddie's funeral at Golders Green crematorium. "They got closer and closer and, in the end, he was Freddie's closest friend," said Dee. "It was quite extraordinary
Birds of a feather?
Too late, too late, for his case it is sealed. His sentence it is passed, and cannot be repealed.
Just because your heart or breathing stops for a few minutes doesn't mean you're dead. Certainly not dead in any way that would confuse God. The notion that a brain temporarily deprived of oxygen is seening anything theologically profound is on the same order as the druggie's claim that LSD will give you spiritual insight.
Maybe it will for some people, but it ain't God.
Does God ever get lonely, being the only God around?
No - because of the trinity. There is only one God, but three persons, whose will and coummunion is perfect.
If there were no trinity - God would be incomplete. He, being love, would have had no one to love prior to the creation.
"Freddie became so much nicer after he died," said Dee. "He was not nearly so boastful. He took an interest in other people." Ayer also told the writer Edward St. Aubyn in France that he had had "a kind of resurrection" and for the first time in his life, he had begun to notice scenery. In France, on a mountain near his villa, he said, "I suddenly stopped and looked out at the sea and thought, my God, how beautiful this is ... for 26 years I had never really looked at it before."
Of course, the most likely explanation of this moral transformation is that it resulted from a cerebrally anoxic recall of his trip down his mother's birth canal.
You are correct.
Dr. Peter Fenwick. of the Institute of Psychiatry in London, a leading consultant who was involved in the findings, said the collected data is the first medical evidence that proves the mind can continue to exist after the body is clinically dead, and that a form of afterlife is now scientifically explainable.
The above passage makes it clear that as far as the clinicians are concerned these people are clinically dead. Are you a pathologist? Neurologist? Theologian? Have you had a similar experience?
Some people die and come back to life. Period. God is not limited by man's agenda. They are not half-dead, three-quarters dead or 99% dead. They die (for a short time)and then come back to life. For the edification of themselves (almost always) and others (infrequently).
Has anyone ever studied the reports of "near-death" experiences in non-Western societies? I wonder if people raised in Hindu or Buddhist cultures see similar things under these circumstances.
Take a good look around you. I have always thought that it takes more faith to be an athiest than it does to believe in a creator God.
FYI Kublai Khan's mother was a nestorian christian.
Just because your heart or breathing stops for a few minutes doesn't mean you're dead.
He thought he was dead. Why do you think he wasn't?
For a very young perspective with a life-time of spiritual growth ahead of him:
Written by an 8 year old, Danny Dutton of Chula Vista, CA, for his third grade homework assignment. The assignment was to explain God.
EXPLANATION OF GOD
"One of God's main jobs is making people. He makes them to replace the ones that die, so there will be enough people to take care of things on earth. He doesn't make grown-ups, just babies. I think because they are smaller and easier to make. That way He doesn't have to take up His valuable time teaching them to talk and walk. He can just leave that to mothers and fathers."
"God's second most important job is listening to prayers. An awful lot of this goes on, since some people, like preachers and things, pray at times beside bedtime. God doesn't have time to listen to the radio or TV because of this. Because He hears everything, there must be a terrible lot of noise in His ears, unless He has thought of a way to turn it off."
"God sees everything and hears everything and is everywhere which keeps Him pretty busy. So you shouldn't go wasting His time by going over your Mom and Dad's head asking for something they said you couldn't have."
"Atheists are people who don't believe in God. I don't think there are any in Chula Vista. At least there aren't any who come to our church."
"Jesus is God's Son. He used to do all the hard work like walking on water and performing miracles and trying to teach the people who didn't want to learn about God. They finally got tired of Him preaching to them and they crucified Him. But He was good and kind, like His Father and He told His Father that they didn't know what they were doing and to forgive them and God said O.K."
"His Dad (God) appreciated everything that He had done and all His hard work on earth so He told Him He didn't have to go out on the road anymore. He could stay in heaven. So He did. And now He helps His Dad out by listening to prayers and seeing things which are important for God to take care of and which ones He can take care of Himself without having to bother God. Like a secretary, only more important."
"You can pray anytime you want and they are sure to help you because they got it worked out so one of them is on duty all the time."
"You should always go to church on Sunday because it makes God happy, and if there's anybody you want to make happy, it's God. Don't skip church or do something you think will be more fun like going to the beach. This is wrong. And besides the sun doesn't come out at the beach until noon anyway."
"If you don't believe in God, besides being an atheist, you will be very lonely, because your parents can't go everywhere with you, like to camp, but God can. It is good to know He's around you when you're scared in the dark or when you can't swim and you get thrown into real deep water by big kids."
"But...you shouldn't just always think of what God can do for you. I figure God put me here and He can take me back anytime He pleases.
And...that's why I believe in God."
gura:"But...you shouldn't just always think of what God can do for you. I figure God put me here and He can take me back anytime He pleases. And...that's why I believe in God."
For anyone who thinks that four minutes of "clinical death" has anything to do with being dead in a religious or theological sense -- I am speechless. I have no response. This is flat earth revisited. This also goes for those rare cases where people have been nearly frozen and revived.
The cells of the body do not die instantly when the heart stops. Even in tropical conditions some cells remain alive and healthy for weeks. Brain cells are most vulnerable to lack of oxygen, but low temperatures seem to slow their dying.
You do not need to be an M.D. to know this. This is first year high school biology.
It was suggested for the head-stone of Robert Ingersoll, one of America's most vocal atheists, his favorite poet:
Yeah, I know all that. What does high school biology tell you about Ayers' account?
For anyone who thinks that four minutes of "clinical death" has anything to do with being dead in a religious or theological sense -- I am speechless. I have no response.
Try. At what point does the soul depart from the body? Four minutes isn't enough. So when? Four hours, four days, four weeks? When all the cells in the body die? When necrosis commences? What if a person is caught in an explosion and is instantly incinerated? Does the soul depart sooner than one who passes away peacefully in a hospital bed?
...the druggie's claim that LSD will give you spiritual insight.
Everyone knows that you have to use Peyote and stare at the sun to gain spiritual insight of that kind. :-)
At what point does the soul depart from the body?
Sounds like either you or God needs to give this some serious thought.
While you're doing your part of the thinking, let me entertain you with a thought of mine. In recent years there has been a fad involving kids covering their heads with plastic bags in order to get "high". What they are getting is an oxygen deprived brain and apparently, some pleasant experiences. For the ones who survive, should we assume they have seen a glimpse of heaven?
Right, but you still can't play a decent game of Canasta with only 3 people. Maybe they could split it into 4. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Bob, who brings the snacks on Friday.
Wrong, its Bill or you or some other horney thing trying to get in. Says phong: "Completely enthralled by Clinton's enigmatic personality"
No - because of the trinity. There is only one God, but three persons, whose will and coummunion is perfect.
Do they need a fourth to play bridge?
Do they need a fourth to play bridge?
Of course, but you just know God only gets dealt trump every time.
Right, and I meant enigmatic, too - I can't think of too many people who are quite so corrupt and have so many ardent defenders. It's, well, enthralling. Ah, well.
This is not new. Raymond Moody MD, PhD, wrote reported the phenomenon in several books and continues to today. "Life after Life", is the first and several have followed.Also, a pediatrician reported the same thing in dying children.
This MD was on Larry King Live later and treated very rudely by King.
Thanks for the plastic bag anecdote. If any of these kids is/was classified as "clinically dead" by a physician, as Ayer and many others were, I'd be interested to hear their stories.
Let me try again. I accept at face value, the clinical diagnosis of death in Ayer's case. It is you who is stating that he (and others) are not truly dead. Presumably because four minutes is insufficient time. What I want to know is; at what point does he become dead. Deceased. Bereft of life. An ex-philosopher (to borow from the famous Python sketch).
From http://www.sonic.net/~jhuger/kisshank.htm:
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first: |
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John: |
"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary." | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Hank is a billionaire philanthropists. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever he wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss his ass." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"That doesn't make any sense. Why..." | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?" | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Well maybe, if it's legit, but..." | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Then come kiss Hank's ass with us." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Do you kiss Hank's ass often?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"Oh yes, all the time..." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"And has He given you a million dollars?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"So why don't you just leave town now?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Haven't you talked to her since then?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"What's that got to do with Hank?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Hank has certain 'connections.'" | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game." | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit of you." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from him..." | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Then how do you kiss His ass?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Who's Karl?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself." |
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|
|||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead." | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"Hank didn't have any paper." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting." | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Of course, Hank dictated it." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"How do you figure that?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!" | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up." | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong." | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..." | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese." | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!" | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"We do?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
"Of course we do, Item 5 says so." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
She blushes. | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"What if I don't have a bun?" | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"No relish? No Mustard?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
She looks positively stricken. | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!" | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?" | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la." | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
"That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..." | ||||||||||||||||
Me: |
"It's good! I eat it all the time." | ||||||||||||||||
Mary: |
She faints. | ||||||||||||||||
John: |
He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater." | ||||||||||||||||
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off. |
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A person is dead when the worms crawl in and out. Cellular death is not a mystical concept. It can be observed, defined and studied. Brain death is relative to the number neurons that die in a cerebral "accident" and the location of the cells that die. In the absense of bodily disintegration or decomposition, there is no universally accepted definition of final death.
People have lived in comas for years and recovered. In a coma there is a nearly complete absence of normal brain function (as observed in EEGs or MRIs) but the neurons are not dead.
What real question are you asking? Humans have no way of knowing what God considers to be death. But we can say absolutely and with no possibility of error, that people who recover after several minutes of heart stoppage, were never dead.
Thanks for posting that! I had run across is several years ago and forgot to bookmark it. Doh!
Speaking as an atheist that's what it'll take for me. I'm from Missouri - you have to SHOW ME.
Be careful what you wish for, for it may come true.
God is like a little boy standing on the street holding all kinds of precious gems in His hands. Many gather around Him begging the boy for just one small ruby or just one small diamond or pearl. But the boy will not hand over any of His gems to the importuners. Then someone walks by not at all interested in what the boy has to offer. He then rushes over to man, begging that he accept all His gems.
What real question are you asking? Humans have no way of knowing what God considers to be death. But we can say absolutely and with no possibility of error, that people who recover after several minutes of heart stoppage, were never dead.
But, man! What a journey, whatever name you call it! What a change afterwards! What else can be as totally Absolute?! Where else is found perfect acceptance and perfect love and perfect peace?!
Don't you Christians have anything better to do than to hang around old people's beds, hoping they'll recant when death comes near, and forging the evidence if they don't? (eg. Darwin.)
Guess what, You're going to die too, and when you're on that bed you're going to have a lot of regrets. You're going to regret not spending more time with your wife, kids, and family, you're going to regret not taking that roll in the hay with that girl way back when, before you were married. You're going to regret all that time you spent on the job, or thinking about religious or political garbage, when it's ultimately the people in your life that mattered the most.
Mark my words for future reference.
You do not need to be an M.D. to know this. This is first year high school biology.
Within the spinal chord, there is a central-most nerve which runs from the tip of the spine into the brain. Science has no explanation for this central-most nerve, nor any undersanding for what purpose it serves. Once science can come to understanding this one nerve, it will come to understand God-vision. But it will never happen. Science has its sphere of knowledge, and religion (the science of the soul) has its sphere. Problems occur when one branch of knowledge tries to explain Reality for the other branch for which it is unequipped to.
That is the funniest thing I have read all week!!!
Bwahahahahahaha! I have tears running down my cheeks...
....perfect love and perfect peace?!
Yes, this is what the druggies have been promising for decades. But hear this. The phenomenon you describe is equivalent to a drug induced hallucination. It can be reproduced and studied. The allure of it has caused the real and permanent death of kids.
They do.
Near Death Experiences are almost universally the same. There are some variations, and a few off cases that are radically different, but on the whole, almost all of them contain strikingly similar sequences of events.
That's wonderful! I need to print that out and save it.
Speaking as a SHOW ME, person. God did.
I really wish some more folks could accept witness testimony.
I have no need for gems from little boys; I earn a living with my mind.
How often does LSD completely change an atheists life ?
How do you explain the transformation ? How do you explain seeing the same thing as if born again ?
Isn't it curious that Jesus himself said we need to die and be born again before we understand.
A person is dead when the worms crawl in and out.
No kidding.
Cellular death is not a mystical concept. It can be observed, defined and studied.
More high school biology.
Brain death is relative to the number neurons that die in a cerebral "accident" and the location of the cells that die. In the absense of bodily disintegration or decomposition, there is no universally accepted definition of final death.
"No universally accepted.....? " Is that a fact? Are you speaking philosophically or medically. If it's the latter, you are wrong. There is such a thing as clinical death and physicians generally agree on what it is. That is what the subject of the article was classified as. Clinically dead. People do not need to "decompose or disintegrate" as you put it, before they are covered with a shroud and given a funeral.
People have lived in comas for years and recovered. In a coma there is a nearly complete absence of normal brain function (as observed in EEGs or MRIs) but the neurons are not dead.
But there is a hearbeat. So no clinical death.
What real question are you asking?
I'm trying to find out why you consider someone classified as clinically dead by a physician,(not God) to be truly "not dead".
Humans have no way of knowing what God considers to be death.
OK.
But we can say absolutely and with no possibility of error, that people who recover after several minutes of heart stoppage, were never dead.
Why? And who is the "we" in this statement?
For the ones who survive, should we assume they have seen a glimpse of heaven?
Not many, if any, such children are completely transformed by the experience. When it is uniformly reported that all (or nearly all) who experience a NDE has their life changed then something remarkable is happening besides oxygen deprivation.
In fact if oxygen deprivation worked our church's would have Glad Bags instead of baptismal founts.
If I were hopelessly trapped on the top floor of a burning building and some firemen risked their lives to rescue me, I don't think my response would be, "Oh, darn, now I have to kiss their asses!"
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, the righteous for the unrighteous.
There is such a thing as clinical death and physicians generally agree on what it is.
Only if yo allow Bill Clinton to define "generally agree". There are dozens of court cases every year, including on recently involving a FReeper, where this is disputed.
Doctors are doctors. They are not God, although some like to play God. There are many anecdotal stories of people recovering after being pronounced dead. This was far more common before we had instruments to measure brain activity.
But unless the neurons, individually, are unrecoveerably dead, the person is not dead.
As for LSD, I knew dozens of people in the 60s who swore their lives were transformed. I didn't believe them either.
To expand the metaphor
Tatooed on the firemens buts is "All your asses are us.".
As for LSD, I knew dozens of people in the 60s who swore their lives were transformed. I didn't believe them either.
The LSD'ers and other druggies always want to repeat the experience. Those who report they had an NDE's and their families say the person was changed dramatically by it even though the person never has a desire to ever repeat the experience.
Virtually all lose any fear of their ultimate death.
These changes never took place in anyone I knew that had tried drugs etc.
Whether one attributes the NDE's to God or not, it seems without a doubt these experiences create similar changes in the lives of those who experience them. Something besides oxygen deprivation is taking place.
Speaking as an atheist that's what it'll take for me. I'm from Missouri - you have to SHOW ME.
Let's say for the sake of the argument, there is no G-d. Then your covered.
Now, let's say for the sake of the argument, there IS a God...
5.56mm
Faith is just that----faith. For people who really know God, serving him is not a chore. You say "SHOW ME", yet when an atheist (whose writings you probably agree with) shares his spiritual witness with you, you throw it aside. Ultimately, we are all responsible for our own salvation. The door only has one doorknob and it's on our side.
Something besides oxygen deprivation is taking place.
We will have to end by disagreeing on this.
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