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Lucent Scientists Arrested in Technology Theft for Chinese Firm
Newark, New Jersey, May 3 (Bloomberg) -- Two Lucent Technologies Inc. scientists and a third person have been arrested and charged with stealing company trade secrets and giving them to a Chinese technology company in Beijing, U.S. authorities announced in a statement.
U.S. Attorney Robert J. Cleary has scheduled a 1 p.m. news conference to announce the arrests of the three people, who are foreign nationals. The statement did not identify the people arrested, the Beijing firm, or the secrets they allegedly stole.
The suspects are scheduled for an initial appearance in U.S. District Court in Newark at 2 p.m., the statement said.
May/03/2001 11:49 ET
"...to announce the arrests of the three people, who are foreign nationals."
The tip of the Chinese espionage network.
...more like a tentacle...
who are foreign nationals.............. Hmmmmmmmmm
...and Clinton appointees no doubt...
Time to close the borders.
The years of liberal propagandizing of students are bearing fruit. The country is now a compromized sieve.
This is typical of communist regimes. They can't develop it themselves so they steal it from the US and other westsern countries. I am reading the "Sword and the Shield" by Vasili Mitrohkin now and he details how the Soviets' best espionage successes came in science and technology because it was so open. The Soviets had spies at IBM and AT&T in the 60's and 70's. The
Ah yes the H1B visa program once again bites the USA. These foreign nationals who are usually competent for some high tech jobs are a whole lot cheaper to have on H1B visas than anyone who even has a green card. There once was a time when those who worked for firms that did some very high tech defense style work were required to be American citizens. No longer true.
Stay well - Yorktown
Could be this is how we send ChiComs a message. The jig is up ya little bastards.
Some lengthy *Jonathan Pollard* type sentences will be most effective. Release some stupid pot heads and throw these treasonous scum in Federal prison
Two Lucent Technologies Inc. scientists and a third person have been arrested and charged with stealing company trade secrets and giving them to a Chinese technology company in Beijing, U.S. authorities announced in a statement.
The rot goes deeper than we thought . . . .
Sorry, just posted it again. Used FBI to search since it's now in the Headline.
Read 'The Game of The Foxes'
This is indeed only the tip of the iceberg.
Whatever they gave them, it's crappy Lucent technology.
I hope they standardize some important Chinese military weapons systems around it.
Shoot them.
Penny wise is dollar stupid!
By hiring cheap H1B labor, they're giving away all of their trade secrets. Serves them right.
Whatever they gave them, it's crappy Lucent technology.
A friend worked as a Network Engineer for them for a few months, and from what he told me, you're absolutely right.
The Defense: I was just doing what the President did.
Serves them right.
It will be interesting, though, to contrast their fate with that of Danilov (the Russian most recently strung up for same).
This is just a minor thing. The Chinese have infiltrated pretty much all of the techonology companies in the US.
At least this is a good sign. We now have someone who will crack down on them.
If the people are Americans, give them 10 years for espionage. If they are Chinese give them 10 years, then deport them.
"Whatever they gave them, it's crappy Lucent technology. I hope they standardize some important Chinese military weapons systems around it."
LOL! Of course, even crappy Lucent technology is 40 years ahead of the PLA. Lucent makes up for crappy designs, crappy engineering, and crappy manufacturing by testing the crap out of their systems. Oy Vey. I wonder if the secrets stolen were Lucent's pride and joy "How to sell Ice to Eskimo's" sales manuals. Those guys can SELL!
I suppose we'll now hear from the Union of Concerned Scientists ( name approximate ): a super liberal group that nearly took a hairy when Chinese scientist Wen Ho Lee was indicted. The FBI INTERFERED with this poor fellow !
The suspects are scheduled for an initial appearance in U.S. District Court in Newark at 2 p.m., the statement said.
I don't like "purp walks" but, in this case I want photos!
I'm getting ready to fire-up the ovens!!!!!
LUCIFERSENTERPRISES
More of those hard working, smarter than us, Chinese techies. Let's get some more over here, okay? Fill all the grad schools. It's great for the U.S.
Go to Yahoo News and search keyword Lucent. The names are in the article.........
Maybe they'll roll over on Comrade Bill.
Maybe they'll roll over on Comrade Bill.
Lucent stocks down -5.94%
The typcial gang will still rattle on about how we should burn berets and boycott WalMart. While hundreds of thousands of Red Chinese are living in the U.S., costing taxpayers money and Americans jobs. All the while funneling our technology to Red China. And then these "patriots" will have the b*lls to say their fellow countrymen are too stupid to do the tech jobs, so we "need" the Red Chinese. If we're so stupid, why do they come here to learn and steal?
More good news!
I was just doing what the president was doing
Or Bernie Schwartz at Loral. Big business like big government has become virtually the same as organized crime ... all the fish, both big & small, setting themselves up for a piece of the action. I used to work for a company in which the head of security was himself discovered to be engaged in the sale of trade secrets.
bump!
I told some friends to sell their Lucent some time back and take their profit.
The fools didn't listen!
"Conquest by the National Science Foundation"
"Technology Theft... the H1B visa program"
"The Stealing of America's Wealth"
Visit the H-1B Hall of Shame
wait a min. We should take a lesson from our Libertarian friends here. As long as China has the demand, there will always be someone over here that will provide the supply.
I guess we should just legalize this.
all your bold are belong to us
Racial profiling!!
You're right, and don't forget that about 50% of the graduate students in physics in this country are from China.
Usually on tuition free stipends compliments of the US taxpayer. TIME TO END IT!!!!!!
I agree with you completely but let's admit that Americans bear some ....at least some... responsibility for not going into hi tech in sufficient numbers. There are hordes on Indians, Pakistani and Chinese who are doing the hi tech heavy lifting. In California, Americans are not welcome to work for some firms because they only hire fellow Indians or Chinese. I view Pakistanis as being as troublesome as Chinese funneling back sensitive info to their homelands.
Can you imagine the spying if GWBush gets his anti missile research and deployment going. This will be crash program thus semi-chaotic without good security checks. There will be a ton of spying for China and others. This is my prediction
Libertarians like (legal narcotic drugs and) open borders. So open all our borders to these nice Chinese scientists and the spies that accompany them. Why not? What me worry? What the heck say the libs as long as they can can shoot up, smoke and snort in peace
but let's admit that Americans bear some ....at least some... responsibility for not going into hi tech in sufficient numbers.
I blame a lot of this on our media culture which has brainwashed smart kids into thinking that only loser geeks and Asians go into high tech. Plus, many Americans went straight from undergrad to work during the dot-com boom, since the money was good. The foreigners can't do that (yet) so they are happy to go to grad school and take the smaller pay (courtesy of the U.S. taxpayers).
From a few years ago - our government knew that fraud was a major problem, yet chose to do nothing about it:
<< "While our primary concern about visa fraud is over its use as a means to facilitate illegal immigration into the United States, we should not forget that it also can be utilized by terrorists and criminals. Front companies that file fraudulent petitions on behalf of aliens who want to work illegally in the United States can just as easily be used as front companies for organized crime.
The INS and Department of State have identified pervasive fraud with some petition-based visa categories. First, let's look at L visas. Those visas enable personnel of multinational organizations to transfer to offices in the U.S. A 1997 report by the INS's California Service Center on L visa fraud by Chinese applicants, entitled ''The Great Wall of Deception,'' described how paper companies play a shell game with phony sales invoices, business contracts and other documents that give the appearance of legitimate business activities.
Site checks of subsidiaries in the United States, the destination where the L visa holders are supposed to work, turned up a ''flea bag motel, a residential home, an immigration consultant's office, and a legitimate business that allows subsidiary companies to use their address.
According to the report, 90 percent of the Chinese L visa petitioners investigated were found to have submitted fraudulent documents to the INS. Department of State reporting from China posts described similar levels of fraud with L visa petitions.
If the applicant did not have the necessary educational background to qualify for an H–1B visa, the recruiting agency would charge an additional fee and provide the applicant with fraudulent educational certificates or employment experience letters...
Next, the H–1B program is not without fraud. A March 1999 report by the INS's Vermont Service Center on Indian H–1B fraud described companies that established subsidiaries in the U.S. and then solicited job candidates and guaranteed them employment in the U.S. for a fee of $8,000 to $10,000.
If the applicant did not have the necessary educational background to qualify for an H–1B visa, the recruiting agency would charge an additional fee and provide the applicant with fraudulent educational certificates or employment experience letters.
Based on our review we identified four common types of nonimmigrant visa fraud or fraud related to the use of visas. First, a person uses fraudulent documents to obtain a legitimate visa. For example, a person improperly obtains letterhead from a U.S. business and creates a letter inventing a false reason for traveling to this country. If the State Department has issued a B–1, or temporary visitor for business visa, the INS inspector on duty has no basis for denying the person entry into the U.S.
Second, a person obtains a fraudulent visa. An individual can attempt to use the passport and visa of a person who has a similar appearance and similar bio characteristics, or the person can purchase an altered document. Accomplished counterfeiters can alter the biographical data and digitized photographs on even the most secure visas in use today.
Third, an individual may not meet the spirit or intent of the specific visa program. For example, the GAO found that 85 percent of individuals requesting religious worker visas are already in the U.S. and are attempting to adjust their status. Many of these individuals are requesting visas through unaffiliated so-called ''store front'' churches whose legitimacy may be open to question.
Fourth, after arriving legitimately, an individual may overstay his or her visa and plan to reside in the United States permanently. The subcommittee is well aware of this phenomenon in light of its hearing in March on nonimmigrant overstays.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, nonimmigrant visa fraud poses a threat to the orderly operation of our immigration system, and both the State Department and Justice Department have vital roles to play in this process. As resources permit, the OIG will continue to conduct investigations, inspections and audits that address some of the key vulnerabilities that exist in the system.
The H–1B visa program is an emerging area of program fraud for us. What we are increasingly seeing are cases where brokers are facilitating production of visas approved for individuals to enter the U.S. on the premise that they will assume a highly technical job only to find that the individuals are low skilled workers, slated for employment as janitors or nurse's aides or store clerks in companies that have handsomely paid the brokers. We found our joint investigations with entities such as INS, the Department of Labor OIG, the Department of Labor, Wage Hour Division, the Bureau of Diplomatic Security and the creation of task forces particularly useful and often necessary when dealing with H–1B visa fraud. We will continue to pursue these productive collaborative efforts to combat consular fraud. Thank you.
Consular sections often use referrals from travel agencies, businesses, universities, and U.S. personnel at post to facilitate visa processing. This allows low-risk applicants to bypass the interview process, thereby relieving consular officers of heavy workloads, facilitating the visa process for host country officials, and allowing officers to help important contacts. These programs, however useful, are extremely vulnerable to fraud and need to be closely monitored for noncompliance and abuse. We have found that posts rarely conduct spot-check verifications to determine whether the applicants remained in the U.S. illegally.
Fraud involving the H–1 visa program often involves large scale and complex operations. Joint investigations and the creation of task forces are particularly useful and often necessary when dealing with H–1 visa fraud. Moreover, the magnitude of the smuggling operations usually associated with these fraud cases requires significant investigative resources..." >>
<< "...Consular officers at the Consulate General in Guangzhou, China, recently chose ten random L-1 petitions from those that had been approved by the INS and forwarded for visa issuance. The officers then set out to verify the accuracy of the information contained in the petitions. Of these ten petitions, only two were bona fide companies whose petition beneficiaries were actual managers. Of the other eight approved petitions, three companies could not be located at all and did not appear to exist except on paper. One beneficiary was totally unknown to the claimed "parent company" that supposedly wanted to transfer her to the US. The other companies investigated were extremely small and unable to establish that their interests were international in scope. There are many examples where the listed addresses of "parent companies" seeking to establish an operation in the US turn out to be beauty salons, private residences, or small groceries. Indeed, a common abuse of the L-1 "intracompany transferee" visa involves a small shop owner traveling to the US on a visitor visa, setting up an "international branch" of the family grocery stand or fabric store, and then petitioning himself for an L-1. Once the petition has been approved, the remaining family travels to the United States. No real relationship between the store in their country of origin and their new enterprise in the United States is maintained..." >>
<< "...Attempts to falsify, alter, or counterfeit U.S. visas or passports, or obtain genuine documents by fraudulent means are a constant problem both within the United States and overseas. Fraud associated with these official documents focuses on either the document itself through counterfeiting or altering it, or on the issuance process through trickery or bribery. Defeating these efforts requires secure documents that are difficult to counterfeit and easy to detect when altered. Additionally, countering fraud requires competent and honest officials who are well trained and informed about common methods of fraud. People are willing to pay a tremendously high cost to obtain entry into the United States. Depending on the locale, quality, and type of a counterfeit visa, the cost can range anywhere from $1,500 to $5,000." >>
...Let's get some more over here, okay? Fill all the grad schools. It's great for the U.S...
Now that you're properly stoked and steamed, turn you wrath on American wimps so that they'll reduce the number of spare chairs to zero. Then you're reading out of my song book!
Here's Lucent's (NASDAQ: LU) trend chart for the last two years:
From a high of 80+/shr to a steadily decreasing 10, and sinking. Lucent is broke-dick in the tech game. Around my lab, they've long been the benchmark standard by what means we judge if another similar product is a heap of crap.
Sounds to me that whatever's been stolen from Lucent by these H-1Bisas and transferred to Beijing is just another Bay Area example of an underpaid slave engineer trying to make up some lost wages by robbing from a store that's about to go bankrupt.
Dot.commers were doing this to the extreme last fall, when they were taking 18" LCD panel monitors home with them in their backpacks the day before they knew they were getting a pinkslip. One of the biggest failed dot.coms had nothing of value left on premises when they foolishly announced that they'd be laying off people in a week.
...Usually on tuition free stipends compliments of the US taxpayer. TIME TO END IT!!!!!!
And the only way to do this without destroying our universities is to fill the chairs with our own kids, dag-nabit!!! The destructive liberal trends that infest every facit of our primary and secondary schools system are largely responsible for this mess. Crappy parents account for the rest!
GET THE AMERICAN KIDS INTO THE SCIENCES!!
Dot.commers were doing this to the extreme last fall, when they were taking 18" LCD panel monitors home with them in their backpacks the day before they knew they were getting a pinkslip.
I use a 15" LCD and am always looking to upgrade. Any of your exdot com friends selling to make the rent?
"GET THE AMERICAN KIDS INTO THE SCIENCES!!"
Oh sure, we Americans want our kids to be best in the world at Mathematics and Science, but not be bright enough to realize that mixing household ammonia with chlorine bleach creates Mustard Gas.
Oh, whoops... Did I let the cat out of the bag?
" I guess we should just legalize this."
When Clinton dropped restrictions on sensitive technology transfer, he did "legalize" breaches of national security. And Hughes, Loral, Lockheed-Martin, etal. took full advantage of it. Entrusted with lucrative contracts for the development and production of our national security hardware, paid for by the American taxpayer, they knowingly proceeded to help the Chinese develop everything they needed to successfully attack us. In essence, we have been paying for our own destruction.
...let's admit that Americans bear some ....at least some... responsibility for not going into hi tech...
Liberal mindset: move the responsibility onto another. The entire burden of the blame rests with Americans!
The Chinese students don't vote (probably because they'd vote Republican, by the way), raise our children, or choose our course of study for us. They don't tell our kids "that is cool" or "that ain't cool". Americans have degraded their own destiny through ignorance, laziness, stupidity, and the public stipend.
Recognize this and fix it before all of our glory may be viewed in the museum of your choice, just like the moon rockets!
More of those hard working, smarter than us, Chinese techies.
Hard working yes for no wages. Smarter than us please show me one example. As a general rule H1B people are merely lower cost labor replacing Americans who can do the job better but at more cost than slaves.
Let's get some more over here, okay? Fill all the grad schools. It's great for the U.S.
Now why pray tell should US taxpayer dollars be used to subsidize foreign students who have not paid for the expensive education they recieve and are of no benefit to the USA?
Not even the tip.
More like the infinitesimally small pin-head of the Chinese espionage network.
Foreign nationals in our universities, in the labs of our leading companies, even in DoD's labs.
Three people and one firm are a drop in the ocean of their spying program.
"...I use a 15" LCD and am always looking to upgrade. Any of your exdot com friends selling to make the rent?
No, but I have an out-of-work pal who ripped a 1250Gb SunSPARC Ultra RAID array that he uses to run an FTP site hosting hundreds of DivX movies. Some are still showing in the theatre.
Oh, wait a minute. No I don't. Forget I said anything.
I blame a lot of this on our media culture which has brainwashed smart kids...
I blame this strictly on the parents who allow their children to be raised by the school system, taught by socialists, and don't teach their chilren "the way things really are". It is so easy to blame the other, particularly when that "other" is the only one hustling toward a goal!
How many strong hemp rope nooses do we need?
Why are foreign nationals allowed to work in hyper sensitive fields? I don't understand. Are American scientist, living in China as foreign nationals, working in hyper sensitive areas of technology in China? Give me a BREAK! Lucent SUCKS!
No our country is an OPEN GATE ! We, the people need to scream at our politicians to close the damn gate before all our livestock gets out !
Are YOU concerned for this flag ?
Then FIGHT for IT !
Fax your Reps and tell them exactly what you want them to do about your concerns. They will not act unless we prod them to Fight !
FREE FAXES
All the LINKS you need to find them are>>HERE<<Boycott "Made in China" !
Shoot them? They stole "trade secrets" not top secret information. Killing them is a bit harsh.
I worked for Martin Marietta in the 80's where they had many foreign nationals working on space shuttle tiles and other projects. Security procedures dictated that foreign scientists rotate on projects every 6 months so they wouldn't have complete access to an entire project. The scientists scoffed at this and refused to rotate. No one followed up to make it happen. That's when I left that company!
who are foreign nationals.............. Hmmmmmmmmm
Chinese, I would suspect. Otherwise, I think we would already know.
I blame this strictly on the parents who allow their children to be raised by the school system, taught by socialists, and don't teach their chilren "the way things really are". It is so easy to blame the other, particularly when that "other" is the only one hustling toward a goal!
I'll agree. But it's not just the parents. Do you go to junior high and high schools to let kids know about the exciting area of high tech? I know for a fact that there are tons of very smart American kids out there. Hard working too. They are not being guided to take the challenging math and physics courses needed in high school to be able to go into engineering and hard science fields in college. Let kids know about all the math, hardware and software engineering which goes into their favorite video games. That they can make a good living in high tech, and that the lifestyle might suit them better than in law or business. The teachers and parents aren't doing this (generally). So we have a responsibility to our society to do this. Please help, if you don't already do so.
I blame a lot of this on our media culture which has brainwashed smart kids into thinking that only loser geeks and Asians go into high tech.
True. But blame also our education system where 1) students are praised for mediocrity in their work because we don't want anyone to feel bad, 2)there are not enough teachers with the background to teach technical courses, and 3) the academic standards have been lowered so much that the average high school senior knows much less math, engineering, etc. than the average eighth grader of the 1950s and 1960s knew.
See #61
They will build technology around it. I think Lucent [Bell Labs] technology is fine. It's the management that sucks!
Regards,
Do you go to junior high and high schools to let kids know about the exciting area of high tech?
Thanks for nudging one of my HOT BUTTONS!! A few years ago I tried to start a "high tech" club for kids to do model rocketry, airplanes, electronics, chemistry, and whatever else they might want to do. First I gathered pledges of support from a few tech-related companies, then I went around to junior high and high schools with prepared literature and talked with the principles. 100% of those august administrators refused adamently to discuss the matter or make the literature available to either students or science teachers.
100% of the reasons cited was "liability". You see, parents and administrators are willing to endanger kids in sporting programs "for the glory and honor of the parents and schools", but not for cranial development nor to promote the general welfare of the Nation. The government entities I spoke to needed a 500 pound proposal complete with copies of the credentials that would qualify me for such and undertaking.
When I say, "Its the parents and the schools", I know first hand what I'm talking about. Yes, I'm a "doer", not a talker.
Re: #51,
These guys were not low cost labor. They were scientists at Bell Labs. Say what you will about Loosenuts Tech, but it is one of the best high tech R&D labs in the world.
Harpseal, I agree that mgmt caused the big drop last year, but Shacht is turning it around with the new mgmt team and 7 point plan. Stock has gone from $7 to $11 in the last month alone.
Actually, they thought it would take too much time away from revisionist, multicultural history lessons and learning how to put a condom on a banana!!!
Just not enough hours in the day, don't you know.....
The only thing I want to know is, how much money did these people give to the Clinton-Gore campaigns?
H1B visa scientists are usually quite competent but they are still slaves treated as slaves and paid like slaves.
Stay well - Yorktown
And, while you are at it, check out this new Freeper link:
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3af1b488640a.htm
I'd love to see how you get this one blamed on something besides American kids, American parents, American schools, and liberal American activists:
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3af1b488640a.htm
Dot.commers were doing this to the extreme last fall, when they were taking 18" LCD panel monitors home with them in their backpacks the day before they knew they were getting a pinkslip. One of the biggest failed dot.coms had nothing of value left on premises when they foolishly announced that they'd be laying off people in a week.
Perhaps that is why companies would rather hire foreigners.
Hardly the same thing.
If you cannot differentiate between actions that do not affect others and those that do, I cannot help you.
And if you go down the path of saying that pot use affects others, let me head that off by stating that whatever dumbass actions one makes while stoned should be subject to penalty.
let me head that off by stating that whatever dumbass actions one makes while stoned should be subject to penalty.
Like smoking in public for others to see, or smoking around children, or selling it? Those all are dumbass actions.
However I support legalized marijuana.
No, they hire them because they're cheaper than domestic engineers and will row the oars overtime like galley slaves because the future of their temporary Visa depends on it.
BTW: We're talking two different things, really: Phony Dot.coms were not genuine IT corporations.
In fact, most Dot.coms were absolute frauds built from the ground up. They were designed for the sole purpose to make the top 5 people at the company filthy rich before they sold out leaving the idiot venture capitalists holding onto nothing.
Many had no business plan: The only corporate document in the whole company was the pitch that was used to get appallingly stupid rich people to empty out their wallets on the table.
H1B visa scientists are usually quite competent but they are still slaves treated as slaves and paid like slaves.
The ones I have worked with (from India) were paid well above middle-level managers, and refused full time jobs when offered, prefering to work for consulting firms on contract because they made more money. It also allowed them to work here for a few months, then go back to India to spend time with their families, and come back again.
I preferred being a contractor over a full-time employee too. It's still a lot better, if you can swing it.
I'd still be doing it if it weren't for California law that states that any company retaining a contractor over 18 months has to make an offer of regular employment before another 18 month extension can be granted one final time.
... All because one lady who answered phones at Microsoft on contract for ten years didn't become a multi-millionaire like she thought she deserved. She sued and won.
Execute them.
``They pirated Lucent's PathStar technology,'' Cleary said at a news conference. ``In short, Lin and Xu came to Lucent as scholars, but in reality they were nothing more than sleuths.''
The Pathstar technology generated revenues of about $100 million in fiscal 2000 at the $33.8 billion company, but was discontinued in January as part of Lucent's restructuring, company spokesman William Price said.
The foregoing is from a later Reuter's article.
Most likely PathStar is a Bell Labs research project that never translated to a commercial success. Bell Labs research is noted for comming up with the bright idea that doesn't scale, isn't economical, is buggy as hell, and can't be supported in the field. It either vanishes without a trace, (e.g. magnetic bubble memories, gold metalization in semiconductors, and others too numerous to mention) or someone else eventually makes it work.
Unix is the most notable example of the syndrome. It wouldn't be around today without the efforts of Berkeley grad students, such as Bill Joy.
"Libertarians like (legal narcotic drugs and) open borders. So open all our borders to these nice Chinese scientists and the spies that accompany them. Why not? What me worry? What the heck say the libs as long as they can can shoot up, smoke and snort in peace"
You're an uninformed fool.
Love to see somebody do a search of "list of Clinton/DNC contributors" for these names and their aliases.
I found the marketing goop for Lucent's PathStar technology here (Adobe Acrobat required): PathStar Access Server feature specification
You're right: PathStar is a turkey that Lucent has abandoned:
Lucent Backs Out Of PathStar Agreement
PathStar is a secure data-switching foundation that allows plain-old-telephone-service (POTS) to be converted to IP packets and routed over the Internet (AKA: Voice Over IP; VoIP) along with data, etc.
If the Chinese military were to develop this, they could produce a more reliable command and control structure for their clients (Iraq?) that wouldn't be as vulnerable to attack by conventional means. Rear-echelon Iraqi battlefield commanders wouldn't lose communication with their forward troops the way they might now if their communications centers fall under attack.
Simply put, you'd have to smash Saddam's existing telephony network entirely to keep them from relaying data and voice with whom they needed to contact at any given moment.
I don't know how critical a loss this is. If Lucent abandoned it because they thought it stunk, it must really be a heap. Also, there's plenty of competing solutions out there for this type of VoIP connectivity. I don't know what export controls the US has on this stuff, or even if it's considered a weapon at all, but I think the Chinese (or even the Iraqis, for that matter) could buy existing functional technology off-the-shelf. I think Nokia makes a fantastic one.
If the Chinese plan to standardize their strategic missile forces communication structure based on this turkey, it sure is nice of them to develop it on American IT tech that could be compromised. Better than developing it themselves based on some proprietary system we know nothing about.
Latest update:
05/03 17:01 Lucent Scientists Charged in Theft for Chinese Firm
(Update5) By David Voreacos
Newark, New Jersey, May 3 (Bloomberg) -- Two Lucent Technologies Inc. scientists and a businessman were charged with passing company secrets to a government-owned telecommunications firm in China, U.S. Attorney Robert Cleary said today.
The three men, all natives of China, are accused of a ``complicated scheme of corporate espionage'' to steal Lucent voice and data technology software to set up a joint venture with the Beijing company, Cleary said at a news conference. ``Charges of economic espionage such as this are extremely serious matters,'' Cleary said. ``An American company spends billions of dollars in research and takes enormous business risks developing a product to sell.''
Cleary said he has no evidence that the Chinese firm, Datang Telecom Technology Co. Ltd., broke the law. The arrests come at a time of mounting U.S.-Chinese tensions prompted by the forced landing recently of a U.S. spy plane in China and the U.S. detention last year of Wen Ho Lee, a Chinese-American nuclear scientist fired from the Los Alamos National Laboratory on suspicion of passing bomb secrets to China.
Lucent Technologies, based in Murray Hill, New Jersey, spent billions of dollars to develop the ``super-advanced technology,'' which the men pirated to give their joint venture with Datang a competitive edge, Cleary said. Datang makes and markets telecommunications equipment and software, as well as computer software and hardware.
`Cisco of China'
``The goals for the joint venture were for it to become the leading data networking company in China, `the Cisco of China,' and to go public both in China and the U.S. through initial public offerings of stock,'' said an FBI complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Newark.
The two Lucent scientists arrested today were Kai Xu, a 33- year-old resident of Somerset, New Jersey, and Hai Lin, a 30-year- old resident of Scotch Plains, New Jersey. Both are Chinese citizens who ran a New Jersey company called Comtriad Technologies Inc., the complaint said.
The third man taken into custody was Yong-Qing Cheng, a registered agent for Comtriad who also was president of Village Networks, an optical networking vendor in Eatontown, New Jersey, authorities said. Cheng is a naturalized U.S. citizen.
``Lin and Xu came to Lucent as scholars, but in reality, were nothing more than sleuths,'' Cleary said.
All three men are charged with conspiracy to commit wire fraud, which carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison. The case will be presented to a federal grand jury in Newark.
The three men made an initial appearance today before U.S. Magistrate Judge Stanley Chesler, who ordered them detained pending a bail hearing on Tuesday afternoon. Assistant U.S. Attorney Scott Christie said he will argue then that they should be detained without bail because they pose a risk of flight.
PathStar
In their jobs at Lucent, court papers said, the two scientists worked on the company's PathStar software system, which aids in the transmission of voice and text data by phone and Internet companies.
PathStar generated about $100 million in revenue for Lucent in fiscal 2000, according to the complaint. Lucent discontinued the PathStar system in January, said spokesman Bill Price.
The complaint said that Lin and Xu stole Lucent's proprietary information on PathStar for Comtriad, which they formed in January 2000. Cheng visited China in July 2000 to discuss a joint venture between Comtriad and Datang, and they reached an agreement in February 2001, the complaint said.
The executive summary of the business plan for the Comtriad- Datang venture described a product known as the CLX-1000, that was ``identical to the PathStar Access Server,'' the complaint said. The summary said the company planned to spend ``no money for research and development'' from August 2000 to August 2001.
Lin and Xu were arrested this morning at their homes, and Cheng was arrested at Village Networks, Cleary said. Authorities also searched the homes of the three men this morning.
Both Price and Cleary said Lucent has been cooperating since February in the investigation. Neither would say how the firm learned of the theft.
`Crown Jewel'
Cleary said that the PathStar source code and software were stored in their entirety on a Web site created by Comtriad and a Web-hosting company. The Web site was accessible only to those with a password, Cleary said.
Christie said that ``a substantial amount'' of the source code, which was the ``crown jewel'' of the joint venture, was transferred to Datang earlier this year. Cleary said that source code was worth ``a staggering amount of money.''
Datang was supposed to own 51 percent of the joint venture, which was preparing to market its product in September, authorities said. Datang had invested $1.2 million in the joint venture, authorities said.
Federal authorities searched the unidentified Web-hosting company on March 7. After that search, ``several Lucent employees confirmed that the source code itself is unique to the PathStar Access Server,'' the complaint said.
Small telecommunications companies, freed by deregulation to compete with Verizon Communications Inc. and other incumbent carriers, use PathStar to direct phone calls, Internet content, and other information on the same connection. PathStar combines the functions of several networking devices.
``It's not like this is super, top-secret spy stuff,'' Christie said. ``There's no inference that there's been spying or military involvement.''
good.
Guess what? Lucent would have needed an export license to hire these guys, even though they were working in the US. Why? There's something in the law called "deemed export". When a company hires a foreign worker to work on export-controlled technology, even in the US, the law considers that an export (see http://www.bxa.doc.gov for more info) which may need a license, depending on what country the foreign worker is from and what technology they are working on. Nothing about it in the press releases so far, although that may come later.
That's the little bit of good news. The big chunk of bad news is when these licenses to hire PRC nationals get refused, you figure it's the defense department that stops them. The defense group that reviews and votes on export licenses, however, is getting exiled to the bureaucratic boonies soon so that it will be a lot harder for them to stop these kinds of licenses when they need stopping.
Some of this was posted earlier. There used to be a group at the defense department called "Defense Technology Security Administration". They were part of the Office of the Secretary of Defense and started out, headed by Dr. Stephen Bryen, with a cold war charter under Reagan to keep the really good stuff away from the Soviet Union. Then there was no more Soviet Union and no more CoCom but there was Iraq and Saddam Hussein shopping for the ingredients to build a bomb and Communist China getting ugly towards Taiwan and some people realizing that the world still needed to be child-proofed, hence the Wassenaar Arrangement. But during the Clinton years some people, particularly those wanting to make money off Communist China, began to see DTSA as really inconvenient. No organization is ever perfect or has perfect people, but they slowed up questionable export licenses and actually got a few denied, by Dr. Peter Leitner and others. So DTSA got "reorganized". Instead of being part of the Office of the Secretary of Defense, they became a small part of the much larger "Defense Threat Reduction Agency". Their mission also got buried under DTRA's larger mission. It became harder to control anything, especially since other parts of DTRA sometimes wanted to export stuff too, sometimes to funny places, and didn't want hassles with the export laws. (Can you say "conflict of interest"?)
In the next couple of months the organization formerly known as DTSA will be buried completely. The element doing technology security work for defense will move from their place next door to the Pentagon and accessible to downtown federal agencies. This location is important, because the fight to stop an export license which could hurt the US means meeting frequently with those federal agencies, and DC traffic and parking limitations means people need quick access to either shuttles or to the metro. They will be moved from this workable location to an unworkable location some number of miles away in Alexandria; hard to get to, hard to get out of, farther away from everything, insufficient parking, etc. So the defense people will not be able to have frequent meetings with other agencies and thus will not be able to stop or slow down questionable export licenses or changes in the export rules. This bright idea happened in the Clinton Adminstration, which was not big on export controls or on national security, for that matter. It is a handy way to put this group out of business without seeming to. One might have hoped that the election of George W. Bush would have turned this bad decision around, and it may still, though the Bush team has been busy lately. But Clinton holdovers are pushing the move schedule even more aggressively and it may happen within weeks. If this move takes place, defense technology security and any vestige of stopping high technology going to Communist China will effectively be killed. THIS COULD HAPPEN WITHIN WEEKS. He who has ears to hear, let him hear ...
The suspects in this case are innocent until proven guilty. But the larger system for oversight of this stuff is about to get a lot more broken than it already is.
TIANANMEN
SQUARE: APRIL-JUNE, 1989
(Alert: Very Graphic Photos)
Isnt Bill Clinton the only one allowed to do this ?
Thats a great book, I am also reading it.
once again the bottom line rears its slimy head.
no telling what they will do to save a buck and look good to investers.
I hate what these guys did, too, but, PLEASE, if they AREN'T US citizens, then what they did is certainly DASTARDLY and very likely CRIMINAL, but, by DEFINITION, is NOT TREASON.
Now, if they are American citizens, then you are most certainly correct that they may be guilty of treasonous acts. Otherwise, please buy a dictionary.
P.S. They are entitled to a trial by a jury of their peers -- American citizens or no.
P.P.S. You wouldn't also one of those Israel-bashers that hang around here, are you? If so, it shows that your mental faculties fail you on more than just one front.
Sure. Shoot them. Just like they do in Communist China.
Ever heard of trial by jury? This IS America, right?
Ashley, for once, I agree with you: filling our graduate schools' engineering departments with Chinese (and French and Arab) students is NOT good for the US.
Trouble is, our kids are hooked on drugs, sex, and rock music. They can't even do in fifth grade the math that kids routinely do in SECOND grade in Japan and Brazil.
P.S. They are entitled to a trial by a jury of their peers -- American citizens or no.
Try them and then shoot these traitors. Just don't give them a Chinese jury
P.P.S. You wouldn't also one of those Israel-bashers that hang around here, are you? If so, it shows that your mental faculties fail you on more than just one front.
No way! They just need long prison sentences or to be shot and killed to death
Let's see if we are finally going to see traitors hang. Three down and thousands more to go.
GET THE AMERICAN KIDS INTO THE SCIENCES!!
Why? The foreigners are taking all the jobs, all the jobs are contracted out. If you want to work for a contractor, Ok; otherwise, forget it. I assume you're talking about computer programming, telecommunications, data handling, etc. There are thousands of programmers/analysts out of work because they don't want to work for contractors - here today, some other state tomorrow.
How much more do we have to take from the Chinese? BOYCOTT MADE IN CHINA! I'm beginning to wonder if we have anything left that they havn't stolen or bribed!
Throw them ALL out of the country! Stop the insanity. And yes, Boycott made in China too! Bring those dollars back home to America.
And that's another thing! Close the damn borders!!!
there won't be much left to pilfer after china, russia, israel, and the arab and persian countries get thru'.
at ucla graduate programs actually have mandatory admissions set aside for chicoms and israelis.
if they AREN'T US citizens, then what they did is certainly DASTARDLY and very likely CRIMINAL, but, by DEFINITION, is NOT TREASON
There is No requirement that to be charged with Treason you need to be a citizen. All you have to be is on American Soil or under the jurisdiction of the United States when you give aid or comfort to the enemy.
Here's the definition of Treason. Tell me where it says you have to be a citizen.
Article III, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution: "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." Treason requires overt acts and includes the giving of government security secrets to other countries, even if friendly, when the information could harm American security. Treason can include revealing to an antagonistic country secrets such as the design of a bomber being built by a private company for the Defense Department. Treason may include "espionage" (spying for a foreign power or doing damage to the operation of the government and its agencies, particularly those involved in security) but is separate and worse than "sedition," which involves a conspiracy to upset the operation of the government.
You don't have to be a citizen to fight as a US Soldier or to work in a top secret installation. But if you sell secrets to our enemies you are a traitor even if you are a Chinese national.
Marlowe
Someone posted on a LU stock board..that they hoped the ChiComs got Lucent's management "secrets"...Because if they did, and applied them, they would sink those companies. hehe
Best FRegards,
They stole "trade secrets" not top secret information. Killing them is a bit harsh.
Okay, put them in jail forever.
Ever heard of trial by jury? This IS America, right?
Yes, and the language is English, right? Where did I say "no trial"?
What's with this logo anyway?
I read the corporations explaination, and they made mention that it is a derivation of a Zen / Buddhist symbol.
They call it the "Circle of Innovation".
To me it looks like it was painted with chickens blood with feathers.
Maybe I'm just looking for trouble, wouldn't be the first time.
It's a serpent eating it's tail.
Sorta like the Mobil red ring.
...There are thousands of programmers/analysts out of work because they don't want to work for contractors...
I am a full time employee, not a contractor. I've never had a problem finding the job of MY CHOICE. But, I'm good at what I do. Besides, I've been a contractor as well, and actually prefer that. (Keeps you out of company politics and power struggles, generally engaged in by petty people such as yourself.)
Your comments epitimize why Americans can't beat out foriegn people anymore. Whine, whine, whine. Its just like students refusing to take standardized tests ... children taking charge of the schools, employees specifying the work. If you are typical of the younger generation, than I'm not surprised America is starting to "hit the skids".
I leave jobs when the don't have work for me. You'd probably leave they job if they did have work for you.
They will be moved from this workable location to an unworkable location some number of miles away in
Alexandria; hard to get to, hard to get out of, farther away from everything, insufficient parking, etc.
I can sympathize. Alexandria is hardly the boonies, but I imagine you've got the gist of the idea. This is a national defense issue provided that the stolen information was for a critical technology.
I also have worked with a number of H1B people from India and China. Good pay for them is not the same as good pay for an American due to exchange rates and cost of living in their home countries. Further, the "full time job" option has some imigration obstacles for most of them.
Stay well - Yorktown
Recently read "The Bear and The Dragon", by Clancy, and I had to keep reminding myself that it was fiction!
The suspects are scheduled for an initial appearance in U.S. District Court in Newark at 2 p.m...."
Osage, will you have time to give us an update after the suspects go to court please? Thank you.
I've scanned the whole thread...what was the outcome of the court date yesterday?
"There are thousands of programmers/analysts out of work because they don't want to work for contractors..."
See Professor Norm Matloff's (UC Davis) paper "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage, Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Immigration"
Visit the Programmers Guild
Visit the H-1B Hall of Shame
It's also time to review the passports of all the "agricultural engineers" and Trojan Horses who arrived from the Eastern Bloc after 1991. Some go right for the tech jobs. Others even use religious organizations as "sponsors" until they can launder some of their money and purchase homes and set up phony do-nothing businesses.
If we're so stupid, why do they come here to learn and steal?
Learning and stealing is a time honored tradition. Gene Amdahl worked at IBM, learned all he could, started his own company that built clones of IBM mainframes. Dave Thomas worked at a KFC, learned all he could, then started Wendy's. An anglo friend of mine worked for the IRS, learned all he could, and is now a tax advisor. GM routinely buys japanese cars and takes them apart to learn how to build better cars.
I think most successful entreprenuers have usually worked for someone to learn the biz, then go out and start their own companies.
You're right, and don't forget that about 50% of the graduate students in physics in this country are from China.
About 70% are foreign. About 40% are chinese, the rest are russian, korean, taiwanese, and others. Americans don't seem to want to study physics.
You wouldn't also one of those Israel-bashers that hang around here, are you? If so, it shows that your mental faculties fail you on more than just one front.
LOL
Shoot them? They stole "trade secrets" not top secret information. Killing them is a bit harsh.
Maybe you should check out the suggestion made in Post #24. I'm getting ready to fire-up the ovens!!!!!
However, one evening news show said that this was punishable by a maximum 5 years in jail and a $250,000 fine.
Ironic isn't it. Spy on the Govt. and you get shot. Spy on anything else and it's 5 years. Or put it another way, blow up an embassy with 5 tomahawk missles and does anyone go to jail ? Not if you are in the govt. Of course if you or I blow up and embassy by accident, it's the death penalty. If you don't pay a creditor, you go to court. If you don't pay the govt., you go to jail. Burn down the Los Alamos forest, does anyone go to jail ? Not if you are in the govt.
By the way, great job of freeping at the Hillary fundraiser. I was away and could not make it.
"...Others even use religious organizations as "sponsors" until they can launder some of their money and purchase homes and set up phony do-nothing businesses.:
You're right. The fraud was discussed during the May 5, 1999 House Judiciary Hearings. How long will our government let this go on?!!Reference: reply number 43 above:
** "...Third, an individual may not meet the spirit or intent of the specific visa program. For example, the GAO found that 85 percent of individuals requesting religious worker visas are already in the U.S. and are attempting to adjust their status. Many of these individuals are requesting visas through unaffiliated so-called "store front" churches whose legitimacy may be open to question." **
Have you ever worked with American students? They are not stupid, but they are intellectually lazy and simply not interested in learning the "Hard Subjects". The public school system strikes again!
I have had it with this crap, cockroaches. I am in IT in a big way, and there are a bunch of what amounts to ex-hippies in the shin-dig who can't program but are good in focus groups to they rise so the top of the scum in IT "management" by riding on word-smithing and Japanese Fish Bone models, then hire these cockroaches who do this crap - I say execute the roaches. Hang 'em high, try 'em and then fry 'em. Get Tail gunner Joe, now!
Totally agree.
The people vaguely know how the schools have been "dumbed down," what they don't know is how the math and science aspect has been dumbed down ten times worse.
Parents: Get your kids (especially boys) into scouting, ham radio, and force them to take science courses in high school!!
Sciences ought to be King in the USA; one sign of the near-victory of the atheist liberals is our piss-weak science and math education programs.
Liberals hate science, because science forces one to reason. Once you learn to reason, you become a conservative.
So liberals have an active agenda item in trying to discourage science education as much as possible.
And what about the Felon, his dumo enablers, Bernie Schwartz, Motorola, Hughes Aircraft and others that traitorously sold high tech secrets to China? Will they prosecuted like the Lucent perps? One wonders.
Thank you. I enjoy Freeping with my DC Chapter friends.
Like smoking in public for others to see,No more than smoking tobacco or drinking alcohol, IMO
or smoking around children,Agreed
or selling it?No more than selling tobacco or drinking should be, IMO.
Liberals hate science, because science forces one to reason. Once you learn to reason, you become a conservative.
So liberals have an active agenda item in trying to discourage science education as much as possible.
Nicely put.
These Chinese spies worked across the street from me. The technology they stole does not have any serious military applications nowadays (that's why they were allowed to work on it) but it has plenty of commercial appliations.
The woman who works across the aisle from me is a Chinese national (though her daughter is a U.S. citizen and she's about to get a green card). She was not surprised at all by this story. We're not worred about her giving my company's technology to the Chinese, it would set them back several years....
Perhaps we could allow them to steal the Windows source code.
No more than selling tobacco or drinking should be, IMO.
Well tobacco is lesser, as far as observing. I feel the same about alcohol as I do pot. I don't think people should be able to be obviously drunk on public property. Private businesses are fine, but not out for all to see, especially children.
announce the arrests of the three people, who are foreign nationals.
I try to think that I am not pre-judgemental, however, when I read stuff like this I tend to not trust any foreign nationals. Expecially if it's going to China.
announce the arrests of the three people, who are foreign nationals.
I try to think that I am not pre-judgemental, however, when I read stuff like this I tend to not trust any foreign nationals. Especially if it's going to China.
Federal export laws require an employer to get an export license for foreign-national employees from certain countries who might be exposed to certain technology, even when the employees will be working in the US. The concept is called "deemed export". If and when these export licenses get denied, it's usually defense who makes it happen (see recent WorldnetDaily Paul Sperry article, hence the significance of the upcoming move of the defense technology transfer unit).
For more background about "deemed export" licenses than you ever wanted to know, check out:
Commerce Department Bureau of Export Administration
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The tip of the Chinese espionage network.
It will be interesting to see what happens. How long until those guys are out on bail? Bona fide investigations and prosecutions of cases like this seem to be rare. If these guys have connections with the higher-ups in Lucent, this will go no where. Lucent has too much invested in the PRC and too much money floating around in Washington.
The change in FBI directors could be a very significant clue to our future disposition also.
Central Fla, Harris Co. had another case today. Didn't catch how many arrested, but they were headed for China with the goods....
They must be shocked, this time the FBI is not helping to load their trucks onto their ships.
Also cross-reference this thread:
Pentagon About To Muzzle Technology Watchdogs
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Quick to jump to conclusions aren't you? Quick to describe people as whiners or as being part of the younger generation, when you don't know the facts and aren't likely to learn much here at FR. Try getting a job when you are over 40. I started my own business thank you and told the computer/info mgmt world to kiss off. They can hire all the foreigners they want.
"It will be interesting to see what happens. How long until those guys are out on bail? Bona fide investigations and prosecutions of cases like this seem to be rare. If these guys have connections with the higher-ups in Lucent, this will go no where. Lucent has too much invested in the PRC and too much money floating around in Washington."
"The change in FBI directors could be a very significant clue to our future disposition also."
The change in FBI directors may be a factor. However, as more details come out on this, it seems that those who were arrested were stealing the technology, planning to give it to a PRC firm and cut Lucent out of the deal. The difference in the Loral case was that the PRC satellite firm made sure that Loral was in on the benefits of the technology transfer. Thus Loral used their financial clout in Washington to get off the hook. But it doesn't look like Lucent is going to cover for these guys who were arrested. It seems that this technology transfer was done in such a way as to cut Lucent out of the game.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3af31df67656.htm: "Three Chinese in the United States are charged with stealing software from Lucent Technologies to reproduce a now-discontinued Internet-based communication equipment in a joint venture with a Chinese state-owned firm, AP reported on Thursday...
According the the report, the three formed a joint venture with a Chinese company, the Datang Telecom Technology Co. of Beijing, to market the product. They talked about the joint venture as "the CISCO of China," stated the charges filed by the FBI. There is no evidence that Datang is aware of the theft.
The court papers alleged that the three stole the codes for Lucent's now-discontinued PathStar system which enables Internet service providers to offer low-cost voice and data services. PathStar generated $100 million in revenue for Lucent last year.
"A substantial amount of the source code, which is the crown jewel, has been transferred" to Datang, said Assistant U.S. Attorney Scott S. Christie.
Lucent spokesman Bill Price said that it reported to authorities in February about "the theft of company equipment and intellectual property." Price said that the theft was discovered soon enough to stop it from commercial development. He declined to comment on the amount and the value of the theft.
The charges for the three are conspiracy to commit wire fraud. If convicted, they could be sentenced to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. All three were arrested on Tuesday and held without bail."
Not all are “store-front” churches: Some are members of former state-tolerated churches also. Legitimate US religious organizations have been suckered into funding seminary education and housing for some of the individuals. They give wonderful confessionals and prayers in public: just substitute “Jesus” for “General Secretary” in the appropriate place in the customary party-congress speeches.
It may "just" be commercial theft, but we are going to see it as commo network systems which permit multiple platforms (land, sea, undersea) to find, track, share data, and attack our Navy and other targets.
We are just feeding the Dragon, at every level.
Czech Republic is Trojan NATO Ally
The Czech Republic has been re-occupied by Russians. You can purchase Russian-language newspapers such as "Izvestiia" even in smaller towns. Karlovy Vary is probably the largest settlement.
There is widespread revisionist propaganda among the youth that the US imperialists are at least as bad as the Russians/Soviets.
There is increasing and widespread drug use among the youth. Of greatest concern are methamphetamine(NAZI reduction formula for ephedrine) and heroin use.
Numerous "successful" businesses such as fully-staffed restaurants appear to have few retail customers.
Some businesses run by pre-1989 immigrants also appear to be quite successful.
Contemporary Czech folklore holds that the Czechs have developed technology which detects US stealth aircraft, and that the US is attempting to suppress this information and production of the system.
Czechs, as NATO members, are requesting information on modern US weapons technology.
This was as predictable as the movement of the hands on a clock.
As a retired Bell Labs (now Lucent) employee, I was fearful of this happening when Lucent opened a branch facility in China! That now gave the Chinese access to one of the finest technical libraries in the world. This benefit is not allowed with retirees.
Perhaps Lucent believed that the retirees were not as trustworthy as the Chinese.
Those guys can SELL!
Does Cisco have any headlines about foreign powers trying to steal their work? NO! Clearly, Lucent is the leader of the industry!
I am reminded of the story of the guy who goes into the hardware store. The owner is sitting there with a huge pile of bags of rock salt. Says the customer "I see you must really know how to sell rock salt!"
"Nah", says the owner. "I almost never sell any. But that guy that comes in here and sells me the rock salt, Oy, now there's a guy who can sell rock salt!"
When something like this happens is there any penelty to the corporation?
It seems to me that a company that does defense work should police itself very carefully..failure to do that should mean big fines to the company or the loss of a contract
Could be this is how we send ChiComs a message. The jig is up ya little bastards.
actually I think the best way to do it is to cut off trade and refuse to renew MFN status...
"The only thing I want to know is, how much money did these people give to the Clinton-Gore campaigns?"
Lucent gave $6,500 directly to the Diane Feinstein campaign and $500 directly to the Loretta Sanchez campaign out in immigrant-rich California.
Good point. They almost certainly would have needed an export license to hire these guys; the export laws treat this as a "deemed export" even though they would have been working in the US. The press reports have said nothing about this.
Look under "deemed export" in this reference for more info: Commerce Department Export Licenses
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bttt
"Love to see somebody do a search of "list of Clinton/DNC contributors" for these names and their aliases."
I just looked at the Lucent PAC report. They spread individual contributions around. The totals given directly to the 3 major party committes were $95,000 to Democrats, and $81,000 to Republicans.
It may "just" be commercial theft, but we are going to see it as commo network systems which permit multiple platforms (land, sea, undersea) to find, track, share data, and attack our Navy and other targets.
We are just feeding the Dragon, at every level.
This is true. In both the Lucent and Loral cases, there is both "commercial theft," as well as larger national security issues involved. Given the financial resources that both companies have to feed their lobbyists in Washington, whether these cases are ever honestly investigated and/or prosecuted will depend on, if or to what extent, the US firm, i.e. Lucent or Loral, is excluded from profiting from the deal. PRC satellite companies were shrewd enough to be sure that Loral got a big piece of the action. In the Lucent case, it is Lucent who got "left out in the cold," and, if that's the case, they are going to be cooperative with the FBI and federal prosecutors.
Using commercial deals for intelligence gathering is par for the course in PRC deals with foreign firms. And the idea didn't exactly originate with PRC intelligence operatives. American firms have used their CIA connections, not only to get enough intelligence info to beat their competitors, but also to gather info for the CIA. Recently the CIA has been more blunt about using their resources in this way. "Imitation may be the most sincere form of flattery," but it can also be deadly when it backfires. PLA-controlled firms are also fishing for "duel-use" technology with military applications, as well as using these opportunities for intelligence gathering on the latest US hi tech developments.
I have no problem—far from it—with asymmetry in favor of the United States.
These things don't "backfire" in the way you imply—the PRC certainly doesn't gather intelligence because we do. Even if we didn't, they would, yes?
Fortunately, despite the last eight years, we are still way ahead of the curve.
Best regards. S&wR.I.P.
...you don't know the facts and aren't likely to learn much here at FR. Try getting a job when you are over 40...
Tisk tisk! I'm 51. Never had any trouble with employment. Then, again, I'm really very very good, if I don't say so myself! Its really difficult to dredge up sympathy in my heart for "slackers". If you'd studied harder, you's find it easy to beat out the young and practically uneducated punks and foriegners.
These things don't "backfire" in the way you imply—the PRC certainly doesn't gather intelligence because we do. Even if we didn't, they would, yes?
I didn't say that the PRC gathers intelligence just because the CIA does. Of course, this is something that they would do regardless of what anybody else does. What I am saying is that when US firms use their commercial connections for intelligence gathering, they form business partnerships that other nations, such as the PRC, can also take advantage of. Even some government-to-government technology networking can backfire in this way. When Lee Wenho and his wife went to PRC conferences or used other opportunities to gather info on Chinese scientists and nuclear technology, to pass on to the FBI and also to the CIA, this also gave PRC operatives more ways to gather intelligence on the US. Evidently the PRC was also milking these contacts with US scientists and engineers for info on US programs.
You nailed it. This Lucent thing is just the tip. The Chinese use everything they can to get info or technology.
Economic espionage is one thing, espionage via economics is something else.
Silicon Valley is losing tons of info and development because of this.
The use of the technology is two fold: one is to fuel the Chinese tech sector.
They are bent on making a "Chinese Silicon Valley", but do not want to put the money into building it themselves. Its a game of leapfrog for them.
The second is to obtain that technology for military use. However, if you get the first, the second is bound to happen.
The only way to prevent this is to have a bunch of govt people watching our leading tech companies and watching out for spies. I personally think we should be monitoring the email and phone conversations of all those visa holders who come to Silicon Valley.
I hope this is the start of a new trend.
I would expect many more arrests of this nature in the near future should it be.
If we start enforcing the rules via counter intel, then the % of stuff they steal will decrease dramatically.
Gotcha.
Misunderstood what you meant by "backfire."
Best regards. S&W R.I.P.
Yep.
Best regards. S&W R.I.P.
Whatever work we don't send out of the country, we let them steal. No wonder unemployment is up, Americans are being forced out of work and their homes and off the land and outsiders are being let in to partake of freebies. We allowed it to happen.
The only way to prevent this is to have a bunch of govt people watching our leading tech companies and watching out for spies. I personally think we should be monitoring the email and phone conversations of all those visa holders who come to Silicon Valley.
It concerns me that the FBI and other federal agencies are going to use "catching the spies" as a pretext to further wiretapping and monitoring Internet communications of those who are "suspects." The Echelon system already enables the government to intercept internet communications of private citizens and whoever they think might be a spy. Also the government is increasing their monitoring of the Internet because they say the government is trying to track down hackers. This is part of a larger picture of government surveillance of civilians that has been made possible by ISP's cooperation with the FBI, even if there is no court order, that would be required in the case of telephone wiretapping.
If the feds want to find foreign intelligence operatives in the industry and in technology firms, they don't need to step up eavesdropping and intercepting email communications. They already know what US companies are dealing with the PRC in "duel-use" technology. Since most PRC high tech firms are managed and/or owned by the PLA, it is no big mystery as to how the PLA is acquiring this duel-use technology. The problem is not that the US DOJ doesn't know, it is a question of how much they are willing to follow-up and conduct a bona fide criminal investigation. High tech firms such as Lucent and Loral spend millions of dollars on Washington lobbyists and give generously to both the Republican and Democratic campaign funds. The bottom line is if a high tech US firm like this is benefiting from the technology transfer, such as Loral was, there may be a mountain of evidence of illegal duel-use transfers to the PRC, but there will never be any serious attempt at prosecution. However, there is a chance that there will be prosecutions in the Lucent case for the simple reason that Lucent was getting ripped off and this particular technology transfer to a PRC firm was designed to cut Lucent completely out of the deal. That's why Lucent is actually pushing for a criminal investigation. If the PRC firm had been willing to let Lucent share in the profits of this technology transfer, then Lucent wouldn't blow the whistle on anybody and would be more than willing to cover for them, such as the way Bernard Schwartz did in the Loral case. You can be sure that if someone tried to steal Loral technology and cut Loral out of the game, then Schwartz would get the FBI on the phone and demand action against the thefts.
Yea, well a lot of the contractors that I have seen have NO EMPLOYEES over the age of 30.
...NO EMPLOYEES over the age of 30...
I live in the Atlanta area. Folks that have recently moved in from Dallas and Huston and Boston tend to have the same complaints you have. Many firms here tend to hire the older guys because they are more productive and can write documentation. I'm currently working at a place where there are few guys under 30; and, there are 65 firmware engineers there.
To be frank, I've been worried about the employment of older guys; however, I have yet to go unemployed. I can generally out-produce six younger people, and that is from measured results. The only trouble I seem to have with younger people is that they can't write documentation, they have little respect for the "old farts", and they actually believe that education trumps experience. That sounds just like me just after I graduated.
Check for employment here in Atlanta. You might be surprised.
Add this to your links:
The PRC and the Indian military are being fed at every level by H1B programmers who come in as contract labor. They work for companies that charge US companies some relatively low rates for these workers. Yes, the US companies are paying better rates than middle managers get but the slaves do not actually get the proportion that a US citizen would get.
Stay well - Yorktown
bttt
165 Posted on 12/16/2001 10:23:09 PST by ChaseR
166 Posted on 12/16/2001 21:54:35 PST by goldilucky
167 Posted on 12/17/2001 08:32:35 PST by ChaseR
Interesting point/bttt
168 Posted on 01/17/2002 05:24:55 PST by ChaseR
Yes it will. -bttt
169 Posted on 01/17/2002 06:53:08 PST by ChaseR
170 Posted on 01/17/2002 19:00:06 PST by goldilucky
171 Posted on 01/21/2002 03:58:24 PST by Black Jade
172 Posted on 01/21/2002 04:06:09 PST by glassheart3
173 Posted on 01/21/2002 04:24:47 PST by aruanan
That's a good question. I dug up an article that I posted last May. It would be an understatement to say that Lucent is more concerned about its business interests, than any concern for "national security." "It looks like ComTriad [http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b031da24d32.htm] was planning to steal Lucent technology and give it to Datang. This would have cut Lucent out of the deal, which is why they have been so cooperative with the FBI. I also found another piece of the puzzle. Lucent, Datang, and numerous other firms have been competing for a CDMA contract with China Unicom. So this stolen Lucent technology was going to help a Lucent competitor! No wonder Lucent was so anxious to get the FBI and federal prosecutors going on the case, especially because "'Domestic companies will be considered first,' the paper quoted China Unicom vice president Wang Jianzhou as saying." http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b0629497939.htm#1
174 Posted on 01/25/2002 01:01:27 PST by Black Jade
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