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The Great "Gay" Racket

Culture/Society Editorial Keywords: HOMOSEXUALITY, GAY RIGHTS
Source: Sobran's
Published: 04/19/2001 Author: Joseph Sobran
Posted on 05/03/2001 11:33:11 PDT by sheltonmac

April 19, 2001

Getting in touch with my feelings the other day, I realized how I loathe homosexuals. All of them? Of course not. Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But homosexuals in general, yes. I can’t stand them. Especially the ones who are organized under the rubric of gay rights.

I guess this makes me “homophobic.” So what? Homophobia is one of those ugly cant-words — like racist and sexist — that no self-respecting speaker of the English language would use. (Try to imagine Abraham Lincoln calling someone “homophobic.”) It’s a verbal badge of groupthink.

Funny how the people who style themselves victims always want to bully everyone else. Diversity now means conformity. It means making sensible people afraid to contradict nonsense so obvious as to insult their intelligence.

Normal people find homosexuality, especially male homosexuality, repellent. We’re supposed to apologize for that? Our slang words for the anus, and their use as insults, express our disgust with the whole idea of anal sex. Apart from the personal defilement it involves, it’s grossly unsanitary.

My own feelings are intensified by personal experience. Believe me, when a child you love has been sodomized, it takes a lot of the romance out of buggery. What was merely disgusting becomes nauseating. You needn’t hate the perpetrator — who, in this case as in so many others, had been sodomized as a child himself — to feel utter revulsion at the act, and contempt for those who try to endow it with dignity.

Will the victim now grow up to sodomize other boys? Will he come down with AIDS? Will he, on his wedding night, remember this first “sexual” experience?

Another instance of homosexual pedophilia has been in the news lately — or rather, hasn’t been in the news. In 1999 two Arkansas perverts raped, tortured, and murdered a 13-year-old boy; that crime has been almost totally ignored by the same news media that spent a year bewailing the murder of the homosexual Matthew Shepard. Because the boy was a victim rather than a victimizer of homosexuals, his story might hurt The Cause. No martyr he!

The standard “gay” line on pedophilia is that most child molesters are heterosexuals. This is sheer propaganda. Homosexuals are only 1 or 2 percent of the general population (despite their inflated claims — also propagandist — of 10 percent), yet they are wildly disproportionate among pedophiles.

What is more important, though, is that most heterosexuals are more than willing to punish molesters of little girls. They don’t make excuses for them or cover up their crimes. They recognize norms of behavior.

But pedophiles are an integral part of the “gay rights” movement. Does that movement repudiate them? Not at all. On the contrary, the North American Man/Boy Love Association is a regular and welcome contingent at “gay pride” marches. In England, organized “gays” agitate for lowering the age of consent for sex.

This stands to reason. Homosexuality is an abandonment not only of the normal, but of any norms. Once you approve of promiscuous anal sex with strangers, how can you draw a line against anything? Why not have anal sex with kids, if that’s your thing?

And once again, the news media — which love to highlight any “extremists” at conservative events — refuse to report on pedophiles in the movement. It might embarrass The Cause. If it’s “diversity” you want, don’t look for it among journalists.

I used to feel sorry for homosexuals. However they became that way, it was an inclination I could only pity them for being saddled with, since so much of normal life was closed off to them. And I understand why parents who find out their sons are homosexual want to protect them, even if it means denying that homosexuality is a serious disorder. That’s natural.

But no parent is glad to learn his son is “gay”; no parent would wish that condition on a child. This is why all the propaganda of “gay pride” rings false. Normal people aren’t even proud of being normal; they take it for granted. But “pride” in an abnormality?

I don’t blame anyone for being sick. I blame them for telling me that sickness is just another form of health.

Joseph Sobran

1 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:33:11 PDT by sheltonmac
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2 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:36:11 PDT by sheltonmac
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3 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:36:37 PDT by sheltonmac
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4 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:36:57 PDT by sheltonmac
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5 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:37:44 PDT by sheltonmac
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RE: "Homosexuals are only 1 or 2 percent of the general population (despite their inflated claims — also propagandist — of 10 percent), yet they are wildly disproportionate among pedophiles."

I'd like to see a source on that.

Anyone ?

6 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:39:47 PDT by Eddeche
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I ocne heard of a guy who had no friends. And then he announced he was gay and no he was friends up the a**

<Sorry_about_old_joke/>

7 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:39:55 PDT by pikachu
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I'm glad someone had the guts to write a column like this. It's beats the Administration naming an AIDS czar that believes in clean needles, condoms and gay marriage as solutions to AIDS.

8 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:42:10 PDT by Ol' Sparky
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Well, Joe Sobran has been invited to his last wine and brie social.

9 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:43:18 PDT by dead
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I hope Joe dosen't ever want to get his hair "styled" or need the sevices of an interior decorator!!

10 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:49:01 PDT by 101viking
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As a society, Amerika falls all over itself to protect its homosexuals, yet cares not a whit for the widespread, daily murder of its preborn.

Satan's work is very nearly complete.

11 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:49:03 PDT by Buffalo Bob
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We recently had an article here in Rochester about an epidemic of hepatitis. The article states that the outbreak seemed to disproportionately affect the gay community, yet said it believe the cause of the disease was unwashed hands after using the bathroom in restaurants.

Couldn't be related to anal to oral sex being performed on people without 'washing'. It must be careless wiping, not washing and then going to the salad bar. OK. All science points out that homosexual activity is unnatural and unhealthy. Yet we are told to celebrate it by the PC crowd.

12 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:53:47 PDT by bird3three3
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BTTT

13 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:56:25 PDT by Inspector Harry Callahan
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All kiding aside, what most see as "Gay" or "homosexual" behavior, is merely sexual deviants who have flocked to the gay community for protection. Just as Joe points out, NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) is wecomed at many "gay-pride" events, and many of us still have churning stomachs from the scenes broadcast from the Washington D.C. Gay parade a few years back, complete with simulated sex acts, and masochism in broad daylight, in our Nation's capitol. These people, are most likely not gay, or confirmed homosexuals. They would have deviant sex with a can of tuna, if there were no other options available to them. What they promote is deviance in it's ugliest form, and have used the gay rights movement as a vehicle for their perversions.

14 Posted on 05/03/2001 11:57:52 PDT by 101viking
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I think Joe will be prisoner # 00001 when the left succeeds in starting up the re-education gulags.

15 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:00:43 PDT by Sans-Culotte
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Charlie the Tuna ain't gonna be happy with you.

16 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:03:02 PDT by paddles
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Getting in touch with my feelings the other day, I realized how I loathe homosexuals.

Cardinal rule of journalism: say it all in the first sentence -- the rest is all details. I'd say this qualifies. LOL!

17 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:03:25 PDT by r9etb
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How can we as normal thinking citizens ever accept a lifestyle that promotes anonymous sex in public bathrooms, in parks and with animals. Also, factor in the high rate of disease, AID's related deaths, emotional problems associated with this perverted way of life and the only conclusion is that any acceptance of homosexuality is PURE INSANITY.

18 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:03:37 PDT by american spirit
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Damn, I wanted that number!

19 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:05:20 PDT by Argh
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I don't have a souce either, but then again, out of all the people I know, even tangentially, I still only know a handful of homosexuals. My guess is (and notice I said guess) that Sobran is closer to being right than "The Movement".

20 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:06:31 PDT by irish guard
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"What they promote is deviance in it's ugliest form, and have used the gay rights movement as a vehicle for their perversions."

I think that sums it up perfectly.

21 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:06:52 PDT by sheltonmac
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Pretty damning article, by a "small-l" libertarian (if my memory serves me correctly. Not all libertarians are libertines.

22 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:11:21 PDT by Paradox
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... emotional problems associated with this perverted way of life and the only conclusion is that any acceptance of homosexuality is PURE INSANITY.

Whom the gods would destroy, they first make crazy.

23 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:11:29 PDT by r9etb
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Try the FBI. 33% of pedophiles are homosexual.

24 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:18:42 PDT by GuillermoX
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Good honest article. I concur with every word. Homosexuals will NEVER erase the 'replusive' reaction heterosexuals instinctually have to their sexual behavior. This reaction is probably a gift from God. And the word 'gay' is so stupid and perverse I refuse to use it when referring to the honest term, homosexual. There is nothing happy about homosexuals. But there is a great deal wrong.

25 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:20:40 PDT by Republic
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But pedophiles are an integral part of the “gay rights” movement. Does that movement repudiate them? Not at all. On the contrary, the North American Man/Boy Love Association is a regular and welcome contingent at “gay pride” marches. In England, organized “gays” agitate for lowering the age of consent for sex.

Hmm...and other groups wonder why conservatives oppose the "homo is ok agenda"!

26 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:21:12 PDT by reagankid
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Absolutely PERFECTLY stated! I second your comments.

27 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:22:41 PDT by Republic
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In order to "accept" homosexuality as "normal," you have to accept two propositions.

First, you must accept the proposition that sex is an activity without moral significance. Unfortunately, more and more people seem to believe this. And, the necessity for acceptance of this proposition explains why homosexuals are in the front lines of those anxious to break down any moral boundaries associated with sex.

Second, you must accept the proposition that sex is an activity without biological significance. This is just plain ridiculous, and it's where the whole gay rights argument takes on an "Emperor's New Clothes" quality.

28 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:26:46 PDT by lady lawyer
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"Why doesn't Sobran just come out and say what he really thinks?"

GOD MAKES HIS OPINION CONCERNING SODOMITES VERY CLEAR THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE...........including the future of the unrepentant.

29 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:27:16 PDT by Messianic_Zionist
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Are you asking for the source material on pedophilia or on the 1% to 2%. The 1% to 2% is well documented. One place you can find it with a little bit of searching at Leadership University. I remember seeing a paper there with endnotes that cited the sources. I think the paper was about the patently false 10% figure put forth by Kinsey. If you are asking about the pedophilia, it would be interesting to see where Sobran got his information. He is a seasoned journalist and I would be surprised if he had not checked this.

30 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:27:58 PDT by chapman55k
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clean needles and condoms are a solution.

"After reviewing all of the research to date, the senior scientists of the Department and I have unanimously agreed that there is conclusive scientific evidence that syringe exchange programs, as part of a comprehensive HIV prevention strategy, are an effective public health intervention that reduces the transmission of HIV and does not encourage the use of illegal drugs."

Source: US Surgeon General Dr. David Satcher, Department of Health and Human Services, Evidence-Based Findings on the Efficacy of Syringe Exchange Programs: An Analysis from the Assistant Secretary for Health and Surgeon General of the Scientific Research Completed Since April 1998 (Washington, DC: Dept. of Health and Human Services, 2000), from the website of the Harm Reduction Coalition at http://www.harmreduction.org/surgreview.html.

According to Dr. Harold Varmus, Director of the National Institutes of Health, "An exhaustive review of the science in this area indicates that needle exchange programs can be an effective component in the global effort to end the epidemic of HIV disease."

Source: Varmus, H., Director of the National Institutes of Health, Press release from Department of Health and Human Services, (April 20, 1998).

According to a study in 1996, "Drug paraphernalia laws in 47 U.S. states make it illegal for injection drug users (IDUs) to possess syringes." The study concludes, "decriminalizing syringes and needles would likely result in reductions in the behaviors that expose IDUs to blood borne viruses."

Source: Bluthenthal, Ricky N., Kral, Alex H., Erringer, Elizabeth A., and Edlin, Brian R., "Drug paraphernalia laws and injection-related infectious disease risk among drug injectors", Journal of Drug Issues, 1999;29(1):1-16. Abstract available on the web at http://www.nasen.org/NASEN_II/research1.htm.

Between 1991 and 1997, the U.S. Government funded seven reports on clean needle programs for persons who inject drugs. The reports are unanimous in their conclusions that clean needle programs reduce HIV transmission, and none find that clean needle programs cause rates of drug use to increase.

Source: National Commission on AIDS, The Twin Epidemics of Substance Abuse and HIV (Washington DC: National Commission on AIDS, 1991); General Accounting Office, Needle Exchange Programs: Research Suggests Promise as an AIDS Prevention Strategy (Washington DC: US Government Printing Office, 1993); Lurie, P. & Reingold, A.L., et al., The Public Health Impact of Needle Exchange Programs in the United States and Abroad (San Francisco, CA: University of California, 1993); Satcher, David, MD, (Note to Jo Ivey Bouffard), The Clinton Administration's Internal Reviews of Research on Needle Exchange Programs (Atlanta, GA: Centers for Disease Control, December 10, 1993); National Research Council and Institute of Medicine, Normand, J., Vlahov, D. & Moses, L. (eds.), Preventing HIV Transmission: The Role of Sterile Needles and Bleach (Washington DC: National Academy Press, 1995); Office of Technology Assessment of the U.S. Congress, The Effectiveness of AIDS Prevention Efforts (Springfield, VA: National Technology Information Service, 1995); National Institutes of Health Consensus Panel, Interventions to Prevent HIV Risk Behaviors (Kensington, MD: National Institutes of Health Consensus Program Information Center, February 1997).

Needle exchange programs can "prevent significant numbers of [HIV] infections among clients of the programs, their drug and sex partners and their offspring. In almost all cases, the cost per HIV infection averted is far below the $119,000 lifetime cost of treating an HIV infected person."

Source: Lurie, P. & Reingold, A.L., et al., The Public Health Impact of Needle Exchange Programs in the United States and Abroad (San Francisco, CA: University of California, 1993), Vol. 1, Executive Summary, pp. iii-v.

Injecting drug use is the single largest route of exposure to HIV for Hispanics. As of June 1997, 37.2% of all AIDS cases among Hispanics were linked to IDU.

Source: National Coalition of Hispanic Health and Human Services Organizations, HIV/AIDS: The Impact on Minorities (Washington, DC: National Coalition of Hispanic Health and Human Services Organizations, 1998), Figure 5, p. 15.

but I'm sure facts and medical science you will choose to ignore

31 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:28:12 PDT by rb22982
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Some great quotes in this piece:

Homophobia is one of those ugly cant-words — like racist and sexist — that no self-respecting speaker of the English language would use ... It’s a verbal badge of groupthink.
Not only groupthink, but an attempt to turn perfectly normal thinking patterns into a pyschological "disorder" - calling the healthy "sick" and the sick "healthy".

Diversity now means conformity. It means making sensible people afraid to contradict nonsense so obvious as to insult their intelligence.
A challenge presented to academia by Heston. We wait to see if they'll get the point.

If it’s “diversity” you want, don’t look for it among journalists.
Here's a quote worth repeating - in the ears of every journalist you know, in editorials to your local papers, in any public forum where you can get your two cents in.

Normal people aren’t even proud of being normal; they take it for granted. But “pride” in an abnormality?
Not only are heterosexuals not proud, but if they even thought about a straight pride parade, the groupthinking diversiphobic press would slaughter them before they got started.

32 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:28:21 PDT by watchin
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These people, are most likely not gay, or confirmed homosexuals. They would have deviant sex with a can of tuna, if there were no other options available to them. What they promote is deviance in it's ugliest form, and have used the gay rights movement as a vehicle for their perversions.

Hear hear ... many of my homosexual friends are just as utterly repelled by "Gay Pride" as "homophobes" here on the forum.

33 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:29:26 PDT by Askel5
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It shouldn't be hard to source with a minimum of research, on the web or at a public library. A few years ago it was well-reported that the Kinsey figure of 10% had been repudiated, as his sample group was horrendously skewed by its use of prison inmates and anyone who'd ever experienced anything that resembled homosexual activity, even if it was innocuous adolescent horseplay. A more reliable percentage was found to be 1 or 2%. However, the Kinsey figure is still gospel to the gay rights advocates, as it supposedly lends more legitimacy to their claim of normalcy (despite the fact that, even at 10%, their claim to the term "normal" robs it of any useful meaning).

34 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:31:29 PDT by william clark
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That still does not mitigate anything that Sobran said about the homosexual act.

35 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:32:24 PDT by chapman55k
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RE: "Try the FBI. 33% of pedophiles are homosexual."

Got a link?

Thanks !

36 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:32:32 PDT by Eddeche
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Go spend some time on the Family Research Council site. They've got a lot of data in this area. I assume you're not asking us to do your footwork for you beyond that.

Dan

37 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:33:46 PDT by BibChr
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Those two propositions make perfect sense. They apply to heterosexual sex as well as homosexual sex. Heterosexual sex outside of marriage has serious consequences. The problem isn't just homosexual behavior, it is all deviant sexual behavior. Homosexuals lobbying for acceptance is no different than heterosexual pedophiles wanting to be accepted for "who they are."

38 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:33:53 PDT by sheltonmac
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Kinsey was the originator of the theory that 10 percent of the population is homosexual. And as usual no one even questioned it and many groups now use that as the standard. More recent and reliable studies put homosexuals at two to four percent. You might find more useful info on the Kinsey reports at Focus on the Family's web site.

Focus on the family recently did an interview with a woman who has done extensive research on Kinsey and his work at IU. She (can't remember the name) also published a book on her findings. It's very upsetting.

39 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:33:58 PDT by fightin kentuckian
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RE: "Homosexuals are only 1 or 2 percent of the general population (despite their inflated claims — also propagandist — of 10 percent), yet they are wildly disproportionate among pedophiles."

I'd like to see a source on that.

I also would like a source. I have seen the statistic before that paedophiles are 300 times more likely to be homosexuals than heterosexuals, but I have never found the original source for it.

40 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:34:37 PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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I don't doubt the 1 - 2% number, I think that has been fairly well sourced before.

I was curious about the % of hetero/homo pedophiles.

The author builds much of his animus for the homo's on this statistic, but doesn't source it.

41 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:36:42 PDT by Eddeche
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Getting in touch with my feelings the other day, I realized how I loathe homosexuals. All of them? Of course not. Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But homosexuals in general, yes. I can’t stand them. Especially the ones who are organized under the rubric of gay rights.

The same could be said for blacks, women, disabled, or ethnic minorities who prefer to marginalize their human dignity by defining themselves first by their skin, sex organs, handicaps or nationality.

That said ... I LOATHE those who take the bait and lump all homosexuals (or blacks or women, et al.) under some Rainbow Coalition flag.

I am sickened by the bigotry and malevolent hatred I've seen evidenced time and time and time again on this forum (particularly against homosexuals and particularly with reference to AIDS as a 'gay' disease or just retribution of some sort from their God the Fiend).

I wish more folks would speak up as Sobran has. With the exception of those hopelessly perverted or hateful sorts, there are many gullible, lost ones who get sucked up by these movement and conditioned such that it's very difficult to bring them back to reality.

42 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:38:49 PDT by Askel5
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Colorado skated by recently when a house committee barely killed a senate bill making "sexual orientation" a protected class under hate crimes law.These perverts and their sympathizers never give up---we've gone thru a variant of this for at least the past three sessions.

Last year the wife and I attended a committee hearing wherein several wellheeled law firms,numerous proud sodomites,and a bunch of looney feminists argued for similiar "protection".Three or four other grassroots Christians stood up to them and this bill was later killed in committee.Again,folks,don't let your guard down---these people will not give up on this nonsense--- your humble input could make the critical difference in continuing to defeat these schemes.

43 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:38:57 PDT by IGNATIUS
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The author builds much of his animus for the homo's on this statistic, but doesn't source it.

I'm interested as well. If you find (or receive) info before me, please flag me.

44 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:39:42 PDT by Askel5
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I thought Sobran was Constitution Party.

45 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:41:43 PDT by Askel5
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Most homosexuals are not child molesters. However, child sexual molestation is over 300% more common among homosexuals than among heterosexuals, according to the report, "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles among Sex Offenders against Children" in The Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy (No. 1, 1992).

46 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:42:23 PDT by chapman55k
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Hurrah for Joseph Sobran!!!

47 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:42:24 PDT by Surge-on
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See the source above.

48 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:43:16 PDT by chapman55k
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Most homosexuals are not child molesters. However, child sexual molestation is over 300% more common among homosexuals than among heterosexuals, according to the report, "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles among Sex Offenders against Children" in The Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy (No. 1, 1992).

49 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:44:14 PDT by chapman55k
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Isn't adult male men having sex with men or boys 100% homosex?

50 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:44:26 PDT by f.Christian
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I ran into an ex-girlfriend a few years ago, after not seeing her for a couple of years. I asked her what she was doing now. She told me she had moved to sanfrancisco and really liked it. I told her I was suprised that she could tolerate the prevalent gay comunity there.

She responded that gay men were some of the most intelligent men she had ever met.

I told her I would dispute that fact, based on sexual preference alone.

51 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:44:32 PDT by alaskanfan
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Hurrah for Joseph Sobran!!! Amen. Bigger print.

52 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:47:08 PDT by martinchemnitz
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Without a doubt, I could make quite clear not only how unclean is the act but profile its perversity such that none would be left in the dark as to its more sinister side.

Why don't I do that?

Because I think that those who spend a great deal of time discussing or alluding to the acts, linking folks to salacious sites which detail homosexual practices and offer wild, fantastic scenarios for perusal are themselves PERVERTED.

It's like waving pornographic pictures around as part of your argument against pornography. It serves no purposes whatsoever and only infects the heretofore clean minds which were not cluttered with such ugly images.

[It is for this reason (as well as a profound respect for the dead and fear of desensitizing folks) that I also reject the use of dead fetuses and gore as part of the anti-abortion movement. I think pen and ink drawings are sufficient to get the point across and actual images should be used sparingly, if at all.]

53 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:48:18 PDT by Askel5
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54 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:49:47 PDT by Askel5
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Read Andrew Sullivan's column on Jesse Dirkheising at www.andrewsullivan.com

Virtually all responsible homosexuals support age of consent laws, for straights and gays alike. People who violate them - and worse - should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as is happening in the brutal murder of Jesse Dirkheising.

Don't forget that unwed teenage pregnancy also causes significant social problems.

55 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:50:49 PDT by badboynofear
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well...I'm summarizing myself based on an examination of some facts I have before me.

Inmate interviews in 277 prisons in 45 states, conducted during 1991, revealed:

•  Of all prisoners convicted of rape or sexual assault, two-thirds victimized children;
•  Three out of four child victims were female;
•  Offenders typically preyed on children they knew, not strangers;
• Eighty-eight percent had a prior relationship with their victims;
•  Prisoners convicted of attacking children were mostly male (97 percent);
• Almost 70 were percent white;
•  Sixty-four percent were married or divorced;
• Child victimizers were generally five years older than those who victimized adults;
• About 22 percent of the child sex offenders reported having been sexually abused themselves during childhood; and
• Three out of four prisoners who victimized a child reported the crime took place in their own home or in the victim's home.

Source: U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Released March 3, 1996 (202/307-0784)

Conclusion

Since only 3% of the offenders were females, and only 75% of the victims were females, that means estimated  (25/97) 25.77% of all pedophile offenses were homosexual offenses.  I highly doubt that the male population comprises of 25% homosexuals in America.  This means, homosexuals are much more likely to be pedophile offenders than heterosexuals percentage wise.

Of course, this by no means that even a large minority of homosexuals are pedophile offenders with the stats I have on me.

56 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:53:25 PDT by rb22982
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How can we as normal thinking citizens ever accept a lifestyle that promotes anonymous sex in public bathrooms, in parks and with animals...

See The Massachusetts News Fistgate Archive articles:

Students Given Graphic Instruction In Homosexual Sex By Brian Camenker and Scott Whiteman, The Massachusetts News, May 2000

Fistgate II Teaches More Sexual Activity for Young ‘Homosexuals’ - Held in same building as last year, but this year included more students and sex kit By Ed Oliver, The Massachusetts News, March 26, 2001

Visit the Parents' Rights Coalition

Get the National Education Association out of Public Education

Please send the link to this message thread to every parent you know.

57 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:53:27 PDT by EdReform
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Its about time that Society STOP being "pushed" to accecpt deviency in the name of "political corectness"

58 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:56:18 PDT by Surge-on
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I thought Sobran was Constitution Party.

Like I said, I remember him coming out as a "small-l" (non-party) libertarian, which probably describes most of the libertarians on FreeRepublic.

59 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:56:22 PDT by Paradox
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The author's name is Judith Reisman and writes for WND. Here is a link to their archives of her articles:

Judith Reisman Archive

60 Posted on 05/03/2001 12:58:52 PDT by LibertarianLiz
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"Don't forget that unwed teenage pregnancy also causes significant social problems."

I agree (see post #38). I think this country has a problem with sexually deviant behavior in general. Once we start down that road, be it homosexuality, pedophilia, prostitution, etc., it is always hard to return. Just ask anyone who has made a habit of sleeping around with multiple partners or has battled an addiction to pornography. Sexual sin is very difficult to overcome.

61 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:00:17 PDT by sheltonmac
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Thoughtful post. I need to think about it a little. A certainly agree with you on your ideas about the pornographic nature of the depiction of homosexuality. I believe that societal mandates against it's practice can be successfully argued basing the arguments on the relative health benefits of monogamous heterosexuality vs. homosexual practice alone.

That said, as part of my own belief that Christianity is all of our objective reality, I believe there even better reasons than health for society to put strong mandates on such behavior. I don't make such arguments with non-Christians.

On the other hand, maybe because it involves innocent human life, I believe there is merit in buttressing the pro-life position through judicious use of the types of graphics we all find so distasteful.

62 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:01:02 PDT by chapman55k
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On the contrary, the North American Man/Boy Love Association is a regular and welcome contingent at “gay pride” marches

I'm sorry, but this is blatantly false. I'm still looking for a shred of evidence to back this up....just a shred.

63 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:02:12 PDT by GSWarrior
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My suspicion is that Sobron really doesn't know much about gays or the gay community. He exudes that one size fits all mentality, without nuance. That is a dead giveaway every time.

Frankly, I don't care what Sobran thinks, on this or any other issue. I don't have much use for the Paleos period.

64 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:02:27 PDT by Torie
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You may also be interested in this article, "Culture of Vice."

65 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:03:22 PDT by sheltonmac
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More statistics in the body of this article at World Net Daily along with references

66 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:05:11 PDT by chapman55k
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Just ask that we keep in mind that God created us all out of nothing. He loves each of us, regardless of orientation, with an infinite love. All sex acts outside of legitimate marriage are sinful and displeasing to Him including the use of use of artificial means of birth control.

Have a great admiration for Joseph Sobran and agree that organizing to legitimize homosexual agendas goes a bit too far. So does organizing to legitimize the killing of babies in the womb.

67 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:06:27 PDT by Renatus
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I loathe homosexuals . . . . . . Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But homosexuals in general, yes. I can’t stand them.

"I loathe Jews . . . . . . Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But Jews in general, yes. I can’t stand them."

"I loathe blacks . . . . . . Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But blacks in general, yes. I can’t stand them."

"I loathe Southerners . . . . . . Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But Southerners in general, yes. I can’t stand them."

"I loathe Christians . . . . . . Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But Christians in general, yes. I can’t stand them."

I want you all to realize how evil this Sobran fellow is, and how poisonous his rhetoric is.

68 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:07:55 PDT by xm177e2
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"He exudes that one size fits all mentality, without nuance."

You obviously failed to read the opening paragraph. If, however, you are referring to the "one size fits all mentality" that says all homosexual sex is wrong, then yes. And you could count me in that group as well. I also happen to think that all heterosexual sex outside the bonds of marriage is wrong. I suppose I'm really narrow-minded.

69 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:08:47 PDT by sheltonmac
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Why doesn't Sobran just come out and say what he really thinks?

Since most of us have been brainwash int knee-jerk fear, I am surprised that this thread is still here.

According to the new "groupthink", Sobrans stuff is clearly hate speech and homophobic, and not allowed on free Republic.

70 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:10:26 PDT by Publius6961
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"I loathe burglars . . . . . . Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But burglars in general, yes. I can’t stand them."

71 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:10:28 PDT by chapman55k
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I want you all to realize how evil this Sobran fellow is, and how poisonous his rhetoric is.

So, in other words, you loathe Sobran and those who use rhetoric like his?

72 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:10:41 PDT by Snuffington
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That's just the thing. It is secular science that considers these forms of sexual expression unhealthy. The pro-gay people are regressing into pagan and gnostic contempt for the human body.

Dr. Schlesinger, a physiologist provoked gay fury for mentioning the "exit only" nature of a certain orifice. It's biology and medecine, even more than Scripture, which warn against anality and other features of the gay "orientation."

73 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:12:14 PDT by Makhno
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RE: "Homosexuals are only 1 or 2 percent of the general population (despite their inflated claims — also propagandist — of 10 percent), yet they are wildly disproportionate among pedophiles."

I'd like to see a source on that.

Anyone ?

Do the math.

Assume victims are 50% male, 50% female.

Assume gays molest males, straights molest females.

Assume 2% of men are gay.

Then 2% of men (gays) do 50% of the overall molesting (male victims).

Gays are 25 times more likely to be molesters than straights.

QED.

74 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:12:52 PDT by Neanderthal
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That's just the thing. It is secular science that considers these forms of sexual expression unhealthy. The pro-gay people are regressing into pagan and gnostic contempt for the human body.

Dr. Schlesinger, a physiologist provoked gay fury for mentioning the "exit only" nature of a certain orifice. It's biology and medicine, even more than Scripture, which warn against anality and other features of the gay "orientation."

75 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:12:55 PDT by Makhno
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the North American Man/Boy Love Association is a regular and welcome contingent at “gay pride” marches

Unfortunately, this has been the case many, many times. This has been a very real stain on the gay pride movement.

76 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:13:52 PDT by xm177e2
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Don't forget that unwed teenage pregnancy also causes significant social problems.

The separation of sex from its procreative nature ALWAYS creates problems ... just as any studied rejection of Reality does.

77 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:13:53 PDT by Askel5
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Try the FBI. 33% of pedophiles are homosexual.

Well, the FBI must be wrong then.
We demand the FBI cite their source!
(/sarcasm)

78 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:14:33 PDT by Publius6961
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Lots of assumptions there Neanderthal. If they facts exist, why use assumptions which, in this case, are quite faulty.

79 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:15:21 PDT by chapman55k
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this guy is entitled to his own opinion.
but some people think personal freedom is still something to love about this country. if some sicko is a pedophile, fine, lock them up and misplace the key. if some over-zealous homosexual comes screaming into my face about "gay rights," then fine. i have the right to tell them where they can stick 'em.

but if two, or more, adults perform consentual acts in their home in private then more power to them. that is what this country was founded on. i find it to be hypocritical when conservatives espouse the need for freedom and choice and then try to stop normal, every day people from living their own lives. if it doesn't affect you, get over it!

80 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:17:06 PDT by thefactor
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the North American Man/Boy Love Association is a regular and welcome contingent at “gay pride” marches

Unfortunately, this has been the case many, many times. This has been a very real stain on the gay pride movement.

I'm still waiting for something other than anecdotes to bring some credence to this claim that NAMBLA is "regular and welcome contingent"

81 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:17:42 PDT by GSWarrior
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My suspicion is that Sobron really doesn't know much about gays or the gay community.

Perhaps you'd rather someone like me -- steeped in the gay community and an honorary drag queen of sorts -- to defend to the letter this article.

82 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:18:46 PDT by Askel5
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From the profile of a liberal in denial...

I used to be a left-wing socialist Democrat ("if only we could make America more socialist, maybe a hybrid system," "why do people need guns, anyway? let's take 'em all away," "religious Christians are mean" "Republicans are like Nazis" &c. Ad nauseum). But it wasn't my fault--I was raised in the Bay Area...xm177e2

...salon.com seems more of a fitting forum for your moronic analogies.

83 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:18:48 PDT by reagankid
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RE: "Homosexuals are only 1 or 2 percent of the general population (despite their inflated claims — also propagandist — of 10 percent), yet they are wildly disproportionate among pedophiles."

I'd like to see a source on that.

Anyone ?

Do the math.

Assume victims are 50% male, 50% female.

Assume gays molest males, straights molest females.

Assume 2% of men are gay.

Then 2% of men (gays) do 50% of the overall molesting (male victims).

Gays are 25 times more likely to be molesters than straights.

QED.

Actually I was off by a factor of 2. Its worse than that. Victim to molestor ratio was 25 for gay (.50/.02) and 0.51 for straight (.50/.98), so gays are 50 times more likely to be molestors (25/.51) than straights, not 25 times more likely.

84 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:20:59 PDT by Neanderthal
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FAMILY NEWS IN FOCUS STORIES
——————————————————————————————————
Actions on Military Gay Issue Questioned
By Martha Kleder, Washington, D.C., correspondent

SUMMARY: Despite a solid start, the Bush administration has made some
questionable decisions on homosexuality in the military.

While pro-family conservatives are mostly happy with the performance of the
fledgling Bush administration, there are long-standing questions about where
President Bush stands on a couple of key issues.

For example, there was hope that a new administration would end the failed “Don’t
Ask, Don’t Tell” policy that allows homosexuals to serve in the military.

But those hopes may have been in vain. According to Elaine Donnelly, with the
Center for Military Readiness, prominent homosexual activist
Stephen Herbits is helping the administration choose top Pentagon leaders.

“Why is a person who is an activist for the cause of gays in the military
there at the Pentagon?” Donnelly asked.

Herbits, a major donor to the Democratic Party, is also a good friend of Vice
President Dick Cheney. The connection leads Peter LaBarbera, with the
Americans for Truth Project, to suspect that Cheney is actively pushing the
homosexual agenda in the Bush administration.

LaBarbera said this is a tactic often used by liberals to push their agenda.

“They understand that personnel is power, and they understand that if they
can’t win an election, they can still win through the bureaucracy, and I think
that’s what’s happening here,” he said.

LaBarbera said Herbits’ activist credentials are sterling — he is an original
member of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which has
championed the issue of gays in the military.

“When you’ve given thousands of dollars for homosexual candidates and open
homosexuals who want to serve in the military, how can you be employed in
picking personnel for the Pentagon and not have this influence your
decisions?” LaBarbera said.

The big question that Donnelly said needs to be explored is what this
appointment signals for the issue of gays in the military. She added that
pro-family conservatives should not take this silently.
“We need to support the troops by making sure that the intent of Congress is
carried out accurately,” Donnelly said.

TAKE ACTION: Contact President Bush and express your concern over his
administration’s handling of the gays-in-the-military issue. Urge him to
abandon the failed “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy. For a history of the
policy, see:
http://www.family.org/cforum/research/papers/A0009472.html

To write the president:

President George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW

85 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:21:26 PDT by itsahoot
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The gay movement is in fact a racist supremacist movement that originates from the "sexual abuse liberation" of the 60s. The movement started with libertine heterosexuals who wanted the desire for flesh to overrule all other means of judgment.

Nazies used the desire for white skin to overrule all other means of judgement. This judgment did not make Nazies haters but discriminating lovers for material subhuman criterias such as skin color, believe it or not.

THe angry neo Nazi of today are cranky because they lost, but they are not at all like the gentle and attractive SS soldiers that they were when they had power, Heck, the SS had a sex field day with French women who loved them during the war, and Hitler was considered most desirable by German women.

Now a new kind of Nazism arose out of the 60s sex fascism, and it is the gay pride. Again, like Nazism, it is based on love and deep attraction for a certain sexual orientation, a subhuman material criteria of judgment. Imagine how loved a gay fuehrer would be. The death and destruction they would wreck on children and families would all be made in the name of love and pride.

This is what people do not understand, this "love" and pride is the worst kind of inhumane behavior. Yet we allow it. Last time a German told me that what happened to Germany could happen to the US. While I disliked that as a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting the US for the benefit of Germany (not wistanding the renewed gay pride of Berlin that is a lot scarier than the EastGerman neo-nazies), the guy was right objectively speaking. Heck, we are witnessing that right before our own eyes today.

86 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:21:54 PDT by lavaroise
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Your only problem is that the numbers with which you start have to be correct and yours are not. Check the previous cites.

87 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:23:12 PDT by chapman55k
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the news media — which love to highlight any “extremists” at conservative events — refuse to report on pedophiles in the movement

By covering it up, the media isn't doing gays any favors. They are only making Sobran right. This is no different than when the media covers for black rioters in Cincinnati, they are only helping the destructive elements within the community. How many gays were molested as children? They should all rise up against the NAMBLAites, and *deal* with them.

88 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:24:46 PDT by xm177e2
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Try the FBI. 33% of pedophiles are homosexual.

Well, the FBI must be wrong then. We demand the FBI cite their source! (/sarcasm)

33% ratio with 2% of general population means they are 25 times more likely to molest (if they make up 2% of population). (.33/.02) / (.67/.98) = 24.1.

89 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:25:19 PDT by Neanderthal
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I want you all to realize how evil this Sobran fellow is, and how poisonous his rhetoric is.

Well, I still agree with Sobran and do not believe that he is either evil or that his words are poisonous; simply honest.

But I have seen how clever you think you are.
Comparing Black, Southerners Jews and Christians with deviants who play in excrement is not likely to win you many friends or sway many to your perspective.

90 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:26:28 PDT by Publius6961
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The separation of sex from its procreative nature ALWAYS creates problems

I agree. But most heterosexuals don't want to give up contraception, so don't look for many articles backing up that point this side of the Vatican.

91 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:26:41 PDT by Snuffington
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Like when Harry Hay marched for NAMBLA at some gay pride parade in the 80s, after the parade specifically banned NAMBLA, and then they let him march anyway? He's still considered one of the leaders of the movement. But I guess that's just an anecdote.

92 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:27:03 PDT by xm177e2
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I believe that societal mandates against it's practice can be successfully argued basing the arguments on the relative health benefits of monogamous heterosexuality vs. homosexual practice alone.

That said, as part of my own belief that Christianity is all of our objective reality, I believe there even better reasons than health for society to put strong mandates on such behavior. I don't make such arguments with non-Christians.

I understand where you're coming from. Still, never hurts to use a 'full-strength' argument ... particularly as regards the Trojan Horse assaults that are society's gifting of Gay Marriage with all due sanctity of family.

Making homosexual relations equivalent to marriage is much more grave

23. The truth about conjugal love also makes it possible to understand the serious social consequences of the institutionalization of homosexual relations:

We can also see how incongruous is the demand to grant 'marital' status to unions between persons of the same sex. It is opposed, first of all, by the objective impossibility of making the partnership fruitful through the transmission of life according to the plan inscribed by God in the very structure of the human being.

Another obstacle is the absence of the conditions for that interpersonal complementarity between male and female willed by the Creator at both the physical-biological and the eminently psychological levels. ⁽³⁹⁾

Marriage cannot be reduced to a condition similar to that of a homosexual relationship: this is contrary to common sense. ⁽⁴⁰⁾

In the case of homosexual relations, which demand to be considered de facto unions, the moral and juridical consequences take on special relevance. ⁽⁴¹⁾

Lastly, 'de facto unions' between homosexuals are a deplorable distortion of what should be a communion of love and life between a man and a woman in a reciprocal gift open to life. ⁽⁴²⁾

However, the presumption to make these unions equivalent to "legal marriage," as some recent initiatives attempt to do, is even more serious. ⁽⁴³⁾ Furthermore, the attempts to legalize the adoption of children by homosexual couples adds an element of great danger to all the previous ones. ⁽⁴⁴⁾

The bond between two men or two women cannot constitute a real family and much less can the right be attributed to that union to adopt children without a family.⁽⁴⁵⁾

To recall the social transcendence of the truth about conjugal love and consequently the grave error of recognizing or even making homosexual relations equivalent to marriage does not presume to discriminate against these persons in any way. It is the common good of society which requires the laws to recognize, favor and protect the marital union as the basis of the family which would be damaged in this way.

93 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:27:40 PDT by Askel5
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While there are a number of posts here that DO make your point for you, the only one for which we don't really have a reference yet is the FBI cite. I would recommend making sure there IS an FBI reference or looking at the other cites that DO have references before "doing the math." It is your choice though.

94 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:28:03 PDT by chapman55k
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While there are a number of posts here that DO make your point for you, the only one for which we don't really have a reference yet is the FBI cite. I would recommend making sure there IS an FBI reference or looking at the other cites that DO have references before "doing the math." It is your choice though.

95 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:28:21 PDT by chapman55k
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The REAL problem isn't what they are, it's what they DO!

96 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:29:46 PDT by jaz.357
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Excellent piece. Sobran hit the nail on the head. Glad to see he isn't afraid to bust the PC myth and distinguish between male and female homosexuality. If you analyze the issue, there is something much more unnatural about male submission to penetration (and exposure to HIV like an Andrew Sullivan) vs. a more neutral lesbian like Mary Cheney. Male homosexuality is clearly more of a violation and in the case of lesbians, I in no way see any problem in how Mary was raised with wholesome values by the Cheney's (who deeply lover her). Sobran has guts to oppose the PC liberals on this one.

97 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:31:19 PDT by SpecialForcesVet
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Actually, I heard from a friend of his that he cuts his own hair, to save money. Just sticks a bowl on the head, and voila!

98 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:33:04 PDT by jrherreid
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But most heterosexuals don't want to give up contraception, so don't look for many articles backing up that point this side of the Vatican

Because they're stupid long pigs who've been conditioned to off themselves on the State's behalf.

From its origin as a republic, the United States had maintained, as public policy, the encouragement of national integrity and progress through the maintenance and expansion of its population by normal means. (5) Unlike many European nations such as France and Russia, which experimented with disastrous Neo-Malthusian programs of population restriction, the United States, up until the turn of the twentieth century, maintained a fundamentally hands-off, "pro-natalist" policy. This policy, generally supported by the American hierarchy and Rome, was reflected in liberal immigration policies, the promotion of public health measures to reduce infant and adult mortality, and state and federal legislation support-ing marriage and opposing divorce, birth control and obscenity. (6) A large and young vigor-ous population was viewed as an asset, both to national security and as a basic economic necessity for the well being of a great nation.

As early as 1873, a predominantly Protestant United States Congress passed the famous Comstock Law which included a provision to prohibit the interstate traffic and foreign importation of articles of "immoral use" to prevent conception. (7) This law was viewed as supporting a nation's basic instinct to survive and prosper.

Generally speaking, the Comstock Law was poorly enforced by federal agencies. For example, the U.S. Patent Office was notorious for "freely issuing patents and trademarks for all sorts of anti-conception devices and concoctions that this immensely profitable trade produced." (8) The law, however, did prove its worth by effectively preventing the establishment of public, free-standing birth control centers by the Sangerites. (9)

In 1936, after four unsuccessful attempts to repeal the Comstock Law, the Sangerites, with aid from the Masons, succeeded in getting the federal courts to drive a stake into the heart of the law by allowing birth control ostensibly for "health reasons." Technically speaking, however, many provisions of the original Comstock Law remained in the U.S. statute books until the mid-1980s.

Under the Franklin D. Roosevelt Administrations (1933-45), prosecutions for violations of the Comstock Law became rare. (10) It was also under Roosevelt's heavily Masonic Administration that the neo-Malthusians advanced their anti-natalist policies in the United States and its commonwealth possessions, including the island of Puerto Rico.

The Catholic Church's bitter battle over the Federal Government's "Grand Population Control Experiment" in Puerto Rico, which lasted well over half a century, provides us with some instructive insights into the evolution and development of the American bishops' thinking on population control, defined here as the imposition of specific demographic policies by the state designed to limit family size and achieve pre-determined demographic objectives es-tablished by the state as a matter of public policy.

Puerto Rico, The Great Experiment

Population control came to Puerto Rico in the early 1900s largely through the efforts of Protestant denominations and evangelical sects who wished to refashion Puerto Rican society and Catholic culture along more White-Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) lines. The Neo-Malthusian program was openly eugenic--to improve, what the WASPs perceived as "inferior human stock" (principally through direct sterilizations). (11) This island served as the United States' first experimental model for "the intelligent and scientific control of population," the key element of which was the "education of the people and overcoming the prejudices of the Catholic Church." (12)

The rationale for the Neo-Malthusian campaign in Puerto Rico was candidly expressed by Dr. Cornelius Rhoads, a physician at San Juan's Presbyterian Hospital, operated under the aus-pices of the Rockefeller Foundation:

The Porto (Puerto) Ricans ... are beyond doubt the dirtiest, laziest, most de-generate and thievish race of men ever inhabiting this sphere .... What the is-land needs is not public health work but a tidal wave or something to totally exterminate the population. I have done my best to further the process of extermination by killing off eight and transplanting cancer into several more .... (13)

President Roosevelt made his contribution to the on-going dialogue concerning Puerto Rico's "population problem" by jokingly telling Charles Taussig, his advisor on Caribbean affairs, "I guess the only solution is to use the methods which Hitler used effectively." It is all very simple and painless Roosevelt said--"you have people pass through a narrow passage and then there is the brrrr of an electrical apparatus. They stay there for twenty seconds and from then on they are sterile." (14)

"Abortion is Vital to the Solution (of population control at home and abroad) ... A Key Point from Kissinger's NSSM-200

99 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:35:40 PDT by Askel5
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To "loathe" is to dislike greatly, often with disgust or intolerance. That having been said, would you say you "loathe" pedophiles? Do you "loathe" rapists? Do you "loathe" murderers? As a member of the National Amerikan Groupthink Society you must be an expert on hate speech.

100 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:37:05 PDT by sheltonmac
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Like when Harry Hay marched for NAMBLA at some gay pride parade in the 80s, after the parade specifically banned NAMBLA, and then they let him march anyway? He's still considered one of the leaders of the movement. But I guess that's just an anecdote.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that NAMBLA took the organizers of the event to the courts who then decided that NAMBLA could march. The organzers of the event were horrified at the prospect of NAMBLA taking part. Most homosexuals don't even know who Harry Hay is.

One appearance does not translate to being a "welcome and regular participant."

101 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:38:39 PDT by GSWarrior
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102 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:38:49 PDT by Askel5
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You have that right. Clearly this is a lifestyle that needs heavy recruiting for the active homosexuals to have playmates. Generally, this a sickly club with lots of illnesses besides AIDS, and they tend to die very gaily at 40 to 45. Now that is a lifestyle we should endow with normality? NOT........!

103 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:39:09 PDT by Goreknowshowtocheat
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Since biology, medical science, evolution, and common sense all show the male homosexual to be extremely perverted, prone to higher incidence of pedophilia, STDs, shorter life span, mental illness, etc ... - Why are we welcoming them into the Republican Party? Are we that desperate? Doesn't personal, 'private' conduct reflect on an individual's character and integrity?

104 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:45:06 PDT by SpecialForcesVet
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The original source for the 10% number was the Kinsey Studies made back in the 1940's and 1950's. There was a sampling problem with his study population. Kinsey used male prisoners in his study. He was at times a prison psychologist - he had a "captive audience" so to speak. When he questioned sexual activity, the male prisoners showed a greater frequency of homosexual acts than the general population. Re-evaluation of the Kinsey data also suggests other sampling problems, but this does not pertain to the topic. (Note however, that Kinsey did not equate homosexual acts with homosexual orientation.)

So Kinsey reported that 10% of the respondents reported at sometime or another in their lives, "homosexual" experiences. This has been propogandized into 10% of the population being homosexual or bisexual.

105 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:47:49 PDT by capitan_refugio
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Thank you for the post. My problem with a lot of this is that many people on both sides of both this issue and the abortion issue want either a governmental sanction or mandate. I believe that there are valid reasons for such governmental involvement, particularily when innocent human life is involved - pedophilia and abortion both involve innocent human life. Nevertheless, I believe, given my world view, that societal sanctions and mandates are much more effective. Anything that is objectively true should be fair game in establishing the "rules." Your post (and the link to which it points) certainly contains a lot of interesting information that seems to buttress the idea of governmental sanctions against homosexual marriage. I am not really to familiar with this aspect of that issue and need some time to think about it to form a more knowledgeable opinion.

106 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:52:50 PDT by chapman55k
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Satinover. Of the 2% who are homosexual, 30-35% ae pedophiles. In the other 98% who are hetro less than 2% are Pedophiles. There are more hetero pedophiles but the homosexual ones make up a disproportiante amount.

107 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:54:40 PDT by mlmr
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Comparing Black, Southerners Jews and Christians with deviants who play in excrement

No, I was comparing the type of rhetoric used, it's dehumanizing. He hates the majority of them, for something they have no control over. How do they stop other gays from molesting kids? If other gay people are molesting kids, should they have to "stop" being gay? I just don't think there is anything inherently evil with homosexuality, and I don't believe pedophilia is inherently a part of homosexuality. I suppose that is where we disagree.

Although I will admit that gays may be more likely to be pedophiles. It was to do with how people "become" gay. Some seem to just "be" gay from birth, their mothers have different levels of hormones in the womb and whatnot. Others are molested, and some become gay. Others remain straight. Of those molested, not all become pedophiles. But those that were molested are more likely to become child molesters, gay or straight. So gays probably do have, within their ranks, more pedophiles per person than straights.

My question is, "so what?" Should all gays be smeared with the crimes of a few? Non-pedophile gays need to come out as strongly as possible against NAMBLA. Open NAMBLA supporters should run the risk of having their heads kicked in in the streets. I suppose I'm looking for a gay civil war, in which the predators would be exposed and run out of the movement. Until then, however, I cannot support even the mainstream gay rights movements. And keep them the hell away from the Boy Scouts, I know damn well why they want in. Some want to be proud and diverse and whatnot, but others want access to kids. And that is totally unacceptable.

108 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:55:25 PDT by xm177e2
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The pro-homo cheerleaders aren't going to like seeing this much truth all at once. No, they aren't going to like this at all.

Guess we should start a betting pool to see how long it takes for them to get this thread pulled.

109 Posted on 05/03/2001 13:55:48 PDT by FormerLib
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pro-homo indeed. it has made it to 110 posts so far.

i think this thread has opened up some good/not so good discussion of the issue. but some people will always disagree. i will never change someone's mind about this if they have been raised to believe homoness is evil. just like they will never be able to convince me that homoness is not, in many cases, genetic.

110 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:00:39 PDT by thefactor
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What you are saying is that facts don't really influence you a whole lot?

111 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:02:48 PDT by chapman55k
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One appearance does not translate to being a "welcome and regular participant."

He was a bigtime leader in the gay movement, and after NAMBLA was barred, he wore a shirt with something like "NAMBLA marches with me." None of the other gays stopped him. If a white supremacist wanted to march in the Columbus Day parade, I would hope the other marchers would force that person to leave. And white supremacists aren't a tenth as evil as child molesters.

112 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:03:56 PDT by xm177e2
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"I loathe blacks . . . . . . Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant. But blacks in general, yes. I can’t stand them."

Guess what, I agree with the above and I am black.

There is NOTHING "evil" in the statement. What is EVIL, is your implying that one is not allowed in society to like or dislike whoever they damn well please.

You are suggesting that people dont have the right of association, which is part of our Consitution. Only a fascist would try to tell me who I could or could not dislike. I cant stand most blacks, because they vote overwhemingly for the same party that sees them as a block of votes, rather than individuals.

Shoot me.

I can be civil with anyone, but dont you dare try to suggest to me that I cant loathe anyone or anything I want to, as you are neither my God or master. Got it?

113 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:04:19 PDT by innocentbystander
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"The pro-homo cheerleaders aren't going to like seeing this much truth all at once. No, they aren't going to like this at all."

We've tried for years to give them small samplings of the truth but they just spit it back out at us. It's a lot like giving your cat worm medication. Sometimes the direct, shove-it-down-their-throats approach is best.

114 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:05:15 PDT by sheltonmac
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A hetero who has sex with the same sex, no matter what age is a homosexual at that pt.---maybe a novice!!

115 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:06:10 PDT by f.Christian
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Very powerful article. Mr. Sobran is known for his guts and ability to not pull punches. Most of us are naturally disgusted by male gays. But people don't realize that we are distinguishing from hating the sin and hating the sinner. Although I find their lifestyle choice to be insane and even deadly, I welcome homosexuals into the Republican party. Many of them helped us elect Bush and they deserve to be respected and involved members of our Administration. Lesbianism is a different issue, as I see women as having a more naturally fluid sexuality. That being said, even if people we consider disgusting helped us get rid of Clinton, then they are welcome into the Republican political process any time. That doesn't mean I would ever leave them alone with my kids. It's a fine line.

116 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:06:29 PDT by CarlosRNZ
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THE GAY GENE: GOING, GOING … GONE is a survey of recent research that explains in some detail and cites references about the total lack of evidence for homosexuality as a genetic trait.

117 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:08:35 PDT by chapman55k
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There are plenty of valid reasons to fight the homosexual activist agenda without the association to NAMBLA. NAMBLA is to homosexuals what the Reverand Fred Phelps and his ilk are to Christians.

118 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:08:40 PDT by GSWarrior
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>>>It's a lot like giving your cat worm medication.<<<

Actually, I always roll some Tender Vittles in the medicine and the little beggars just wolf the stuff down! Kinda like what happens to the brie at leftist gatherings.

119 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:10:31 PDT by FormerLib
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would you say you "loathe" pedophiles? Do you "loathe" rapists? Do you "loathe" murderers?

Yes, I am filled with hatred for people who hurt other people (and I don't buy NAMBLA's line that what they do is consensual, it's EVIL).

120 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:12:30 PDT by xm177e2
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Sobran is now my favorite writer. This guy has written what many of us would be afraid to say for fear of being attacked by the liberal whackos. Anyone know what papers in California carry his column? I live in San Diego and would love to support this guy - well, reasoned, and thoughtful piece - and yes, compassionate too.

121 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:14:04 PDT by JesusdeCarlos
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the Family Research Council??? Please!
those people would string up every person just left of Pat Buchanan if they could. as for the "facts" that i am not fond of as you say: where would these facts be? the Bible?

as soon as G-d him/herself comes down and tells me face to face that homosexuality is bad, i will agree with you. until then, i will not trust a book that speaks of walking on water, resurrection, and the like. great story, but it ain't a documentary.

122 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:18:22 PDT by thefactor
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Did you look at any of the cited research before your fit of righteous indignation. While the article came from FRC, the cited articles did not. Silly them, citing facts and providing references.

123 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:21:40 PDT by chapman55k
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"...i will not trust a book that speaks of walking on water, resurrection, and the like..."

So your moral foundation would instead be built upon..............?

124 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:21:41 PDT by sheltonmac
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Here's an interesting aside---Harry Hay was a member of the Communist Party who founded the Mattachine Society which evolved into the Radical Faeries---along with actor Will Geer. Yes folks, Grandpa Walton was a homosexual communist.

125 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:22:53 PDT by GSWarrior
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Thanks for the quote sheltonmac. This might not be worth the effor based on the history you have so helpfully provided.

126 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:23:11 PDT by chapman55k
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How do you do that so quickly?

127 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:24:08 PDT by chapman55k
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What is the response of Log Cabin or the Republican Unity Coalition to Sobran's comments about their lifestyle choice?

130 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:27:30 PDT by JesusdeCarlos
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"How do you do that so quickly?"

Do what, exactly? I work at a computer most every day and I think my brain is getting fried.

131 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:27:38 PDT by sheltonmac
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NAMBLA is to homosexuals what the Reverand Fred Phelps and his ilk are to Christians.

Then why doesn't the media wage constant war on NAMBLA like they do Fred Phelps?

133 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:30:07 PDT by xm177e2
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1/3 of molested children are boys, not girls.

99% of molesters are males.

Not too hard to figure out... given that homosexuals represent only 1-2% of the population... they are grossly overrespresented in child molestations.

134 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:31:53 PDT by Garin Hunt
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If you're going to bother posting tripe, at least read the thread. I've mentioned in a couple of posts that heterosexual deviancy is just as bad. And Sobran, in his article, was not advocating government involvement in the lives of homosexuals. It is the gay lobby that is engaged in that in order to force the rest of us to accept their preferred brand of perversion as "normal."

136 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:32:10 PDT by sheltonmac
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Hmmm ... wonder if Sobran 'loathes' Matt Drudge's private lifestyle choice too (not that there's anything wrong with that).

137 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:32:57 PDT by SpecialForcesVet
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A hetero who has sex with the same sex, no matter what age is a homosexual at that pt.---a novice, or an intiate, or a victim!!

138 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:33:18 PDT by f.Christian
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"So you would rather see a child in a dysfunctional "normal" home then with two loving gay parents??"

And sexual perversion isn't dysfunctional??

139 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:33:48 PDT by sheltonmac
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Bump for a later read.

141 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:36:04 PDT by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
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On a side note, welcome to this forum. We need more liberals. :-)

142 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:36:39 PDT by sheltonmac
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Then why doesn't the media wage constant war on NAMBLA like they do Fred Phelps?

Is this a rhetorical question? Since when has the media presented fair and unbiased reporting on homosexual issues?

143 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:37:14 PDT by GSWarrior
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BUMP

What he really thinks? Geez, how more plainly made may it be? Never-the-less, big bump for the post!

144 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:37:25 PDT by Reschev
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Exactly the opposite, actually. There are no governmental sanctions against homosexual marriage (or matrimony with one's favorite pet, for that matter).

It's simply a matter of the state's not recognizing or respecting the sovereignty of any but those marriages which fulfill not only the criteria of marriage but the civil obligations that very vital institution -- and only that institution -- are bound to provide in civil society.

Equating "de facto" unions with marriage is simply a neat way to obliterate BOTH the sanctity/sovereignty of marriage and family AS WELL AS render moot the very real obligations and civilizing influences that only faithful heterosexual marriage and parenting provides.

145 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:38:17 PDT by Askel5
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Some great quotes in this piece:.... RE: Your post #32)

Roger that!! You support the quotes you chose EXTREMELY well with cogent, concise reality! Additional comment not required after you've nailed it so accurately - good job!!

146 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:39:42 PDT by mil-vet
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And gays arent pro-family?? So you would rather see a child in a dysfunctional "normal" home then with two loving gay parents??

So you would rather see a child in a home of two homosexual alcoholics who beat each other and practice S&M than with two loving swingers who practice incest?

In other words, the false 'either or' choice you set up rarely exists. There are thousands of healthy loving straight couples on waiting lists to adopt. When and if that list ever runs out, only then should we consider letting homosexuals, the mentally ill, or mentally retarded adopt innocent children.

147 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:39:58 PDT by SpecialForcesVet
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As a society, Amerika falls all over itself to protect its homosexuals, yet cares not a whit for the widespread, daily murder of its preborn.

148 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:40:42 PDT by sawmill trash
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Now you see him, now you don't. Looks like someone got pulled off of here. His posts are all gone, too.
(New York Liberal)

149 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:44:29 PDT by The Coopster
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my moral foundation is based upon the teachings of my loving parents and siblings and friends. some of whom are religious and some of whom are not. i choose to accept people as long as they are not hurting anyone else in the process of living their day to day lives. the rest is semantics. stay out of my life and i will stay out of yours. that is the true essence of this country.

150 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:47:35 PDT by thefactor
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Did NewYorkLiberal get banned already? I think that was a record. He had just registered today.

151 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:49:59 PDT by sheltonmac
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as soon as G-d him/herself comes down and tells me face to face that homosexuality is bad, i will agree with you. until then, i will not trust a book that speaks of walking on water, resurrection, and the like. great story, but it ain't a documentary.

then why believe in a Constitution and Declaration of Independence that tells us that we are equal and are endowed by our Creator with unalienable rights?

why believe murder is wrong? After all, it's just the law and the law is based on somebody elses idea of what is right and wrong. . . .

I guess everything is moral as long as I say it is moral. There are no objective morals, right? < / sarcasm>

152 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:50:49 PDT by JediGirl
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LOL! I don't miss him already!

153 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:52:15 PDT by Crouching Intern Stolen Sofa
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"Grandpa Walton was a homosexual communist??"

154 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:58:20 PDT by Buffalo Bob
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NewYorkLiberal...too redundant!

155 Posted on 05/03/2001 14:58:47 PDT by f.Christian
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It's true.

156 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:01:42 PDT by GSWarrior
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Wasn't johnboy the young bill clinton???

157 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:03:34 PDT by f.Christian
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Please help maintain the integrity of this forum by making an honest effort to use capital letters where the English language requires it. Thank you.

158 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:03:47 PDT by who knows what evil?
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NewYorkLiberal...too redundant!

Poor Bubba. Nobody pays any attention to his opinions anymore. And his first day on FR, he gets the hook!

159 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:03:54 PDT by Crouching Intern Stolen Sofa
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i choose to accept people as long as they are not hurting anyone else in the process of living their day to day lives. the rest is semantics. stay out of my life and i will stay out of yours. that is the true essence of this country.

So, you subscribe to the dictum "As ye harm none, do as ye will", do you?

Well, I'm sure you know that you have a lot of company here at FR. You're all united in that you believe you've found a way to make tolerence and even celebration of drug abuse, sodomy, and gay marriage conservative values.

160 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:06:07 PDT by Kevin Curry
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Go here:

http://www.indianahistory.org/pub/traces/geer.html

He (as they like to say) came out of the closet fairly late in life.

161 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:11:42 PDT by GSWarrior
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I believe that people should have the right to harm themselves if they are stupid enough to do so. I will never celebrate those things. I will keep them out of my life. That is why I dislike it when people (religious zealots, homosexual zealots, et al.) try to push their values on me. How dare they try to change my life. I see that same sentiment here when the issue of gun control comes up. Pry it from my cold, dead hand and the like. You wouldn't want someone's gun taken away, why should we take away their right to date whoever they want?

162 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:23:10 PDT by thefactor
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How was that punctuation? Have I obtained your approval? Gotta go folks. I have enjoyed this.

tf

163 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:24:55 PDT by thefactor
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Yeah, all that liberal, pseudoscience vs. conservative common sense. I don't ever want to hear a blockheaded loser like yourself -- EVER -- call yourself a conservative. Your ideas are increasing the problems, not solving them.

The condom philosophy has been tried for years in this country and we've gone from 5% of kids being born out-of-wedlock to a record-high 33%. And condoms are far less effective in stopping AIDS that pregnancy. Condoms have been proven only be 85% effective in stopping pregnancy and a women can only get pregnant three days out of month. DO THE MATH MORON. The AIDS virus is far smaller than a sperm and the condoms are far less effective than in stopping pregnancy.

No, jackass, one can not repeatedly stick things up their rectum and not suffer the physical consquences...One can not shoot up drugs and do it safely. Only the biggest knucklehead can't figure that out. And only an idiot -- a liberal or libertarian -- can't figure out the answer to stopping AIDS is stop the behavior the causes AIDS.

Tens of thousands are dying because of immoral, ignorant people like yourself.

164 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:33:30 PDT by Ol' Sparky
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How about a picture of ed asner?

165 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:36:44 PDT by f.Christian
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Notice you simply use ad hominem attacks, with no factual evidence, nor did you provide any evidence to claim to the contrary of what I provided

You aren't a 'conservative', you are a moral statist

166 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:38:02 PDT by rb22982
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"Sex between men and boys is the foundation of homosexuality." - 1992 editorial in The Sentinel, San Francisco's major pro-gay newspaper Apparently, you too stupid to understand basic statistics. Yes, according the to Justice Dept., 27% of all kids under 12 are boys molested by men. There are dozens of studies that confirm that about 30% of all kids are molested by homosexuals. That's 1-2% of the population molesting 30% of all kids. DO THE MATH, EINSTEIN. Homosexuals disportionately molest kids.

Homosexuals are the only self-identified group in the world to openly advocate pedophilia. Can you find me 12 publications from any other self-identifying group that supports pedophilia?

Gay Community News, Vol 4, #5, June 1982, asked; "How do you go about beating Anti-Pedophile attitudes"?

Gay magazine "Outrage" carried articles relating to Pedophilia in two thirds of its publications between April 1983 and July 1984.

The Journal of Homosexuality, 1987 published an article called; "Pedophilia and the Gay movement" detailing Homosexual efforts to end oppression of Pedophiles.

Gay Rights Group COC (Holland) in 1980 adopted the position that the Liberation of Pedophilia must be viewed as a Gay issue.

Gay Magazine "Outrage" Australia, May 1984 declared its editorial position on Pedophilia as "One of defence of the Civil Liberties of Pedophiles and alleged Pedophiles, and of the Right of Pedophiles to make their case in the Gay media".

The Gay Manifesto, London 1989 Calls for recognition of "Inter-generational" sex .

The Gay "Relationships" book by Charles Silverstein "Man to Man" says "Man/Boy love experiences (pedophilia) occurs too frequently to be ignored". He devoted a chapter to; "Love between the generations".

Lesbian book "Saphistry" says; "Lesbians feel it is not uncommon for an affectionate relationship between a child and an adult, since sexual desire can exist in children as well as adults"

"Sex between men and boys is the foundation of homosexuality." - 1992 editorial in The Sentinel, San Francisco's major pro-gay publication

Homosexual leaders blatantly voice tolerance for child sex abuse. A prominent gay magazine, Out, quoted Damien Martin, the head of New York’s homosexual Harvey Milk High School, as saying, "No kid has ever been hurt by [oral sex]" in September, 1994 on page 73.

The leading gay publication, The Advocate, in an article titled Getting Over It pondered on May 5, 1992 about how many boys "would have missed out on a valuable, liberating experience—one that initiated them into their sexuality—if it weren’t for so-called molestation?"

The nation’s largest gay publicist, Alyson Publications of Boston, which distributes Daddy’s Roommate and other homosexual books for kids, published Paedophilia: The Radical Case, hundreds of pages of why and how seven year old boys should be brought to climax. Another Alyson book, The Age Taboo on page 144 insists: "Boy-lovers... are not child molesters. The child abusers are... parents who force their staid morality onto the young people in their custody."

167 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:43:51 PDT by Ol' Sparky
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Don't quote The Sentinel----it's like quoting the National Enquirer

168 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:48:47 PDT by GSWarrior
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A 1984 study by Institute for the Scientific Study of Sexuality of all the world's records of child molestation since 1953 - found gays were 12 times more likely to molest children than straight people; gay teachers 7 times more likely to molest a pupil; gay teachers committed over 25% of all pupil molestations

1979 survey reported on pp. 275, 279, 281 of The Gay Report of 4,000 gay adult men found 73% had sex with boys 16-19 years old; 23% had sex with boys under 16.

Although only about 1% of society (Science 3/7/92) homosexuals commit between 33% and 50% of all recorded child molestation. (Dr P Cameron et al, Psychological Reports, 1986, Vol 58, 327-337).

Homosexual Teachers are 90-100 times more likely to be sexually involved with pupils. J Dressler, Rutgers/Camden Law Journal, 1978, Vol 9, No 3, 399-445

Homosexuals (1% of society) committed over half (55%) of all convictions for Indecency with children under 14, in 1973. (R Walmsley & K White, "Sexual offences, Consent & Sentencing" Home Office 1979, 56-62) and 46% of all gross indecency convictions against children under 14, between 1980-88. (Home Office No 223 23/5/88).

Drs Freund and Heasman (9) of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two sizeable studies and calculated that 34% and 32% of the offenders against children were homosexual. In cases they had personally handled, homosexuals accounted for 36% of their 457 pedophiles.

Dr. Adrian Copeland, a psychiatrist who works with sexual offenders at the Peters Institute in Philadelphia, said (10) that, from his experience, pedophiles tend to be homosexual and "40% to 45%" of child molesters have had "significant homosexual experiences."

Dr. C. H. McGaghy (11) estimated that "homosexual offenders probably constitute about half of molesters who work with children."

– Of the approximately 100 child molesters in 1991 at the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons, a third were heterosexual, a third bisexual and a third homosexual in orientation.

– A state-wide survey of 161 Vermont adolescents who committed sex offenses in 1984 found that 35 (22%) were homosexual.

– Of the 91 molesters of non-related children at Canada’s Kingston Sexual Behaviour Clinic from 1978-1984, 38 (42%) engaged in homosexuality.

– Of 52 child molesters in Ottawa from 1983 to 1985, 31 (60%) were homosexual.

– In England for 1973, 802 persons (8 females) were convicted of indecent assault on a male, and 3,006 (6 of them female) were convicted of indecent assault on a female (i.e., 21% were homosexual). 88% of male and about 70% of female victims were under age sixteen.

The 1948 Kinsey survey found that 37% of the gays and 2% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-17-yr-olds, and 28% of the gays and 1% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-16-yr-olds while they themselves were aged 18 or older.

In 1970 the Kinsey Institute interviewed 565 white gays in San Francisco: 25% of them admitted to having had sex with boys aged 16 or younger while they themselves were at least 21.

In France, 129 convicted gays (21)(average age 34 years) said they had had sexual contact with a total of 11,007 boys (an average of 85 different boys per man). Abel et al reported similarly that men who molested girls outside their family had averaged 20 victims each; those who molested boys averaged 150 victims each.

169 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:48:54 PDT by Ol' Sparky
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Apparently, you too stupid to understand basic statistics.

What are you smoking you tard. I came up with 25% of all child sexual offenses are done by homosexuals. You have 30%. Not that big of a difference. You have cognitive problems

170 Posted on 05/03/2001 15:50:29 PDT by rb22982
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Even conservative Republican homosexuals are weighing in with opinions that support the declaration of sodomy as a lifestyle choice among teens:

Andrew Sullivan:

A bill designed to clamp down on school bullying has been all but killed by some conservative Christians who fear it could lead to tolerance of homosexuality. They want to make sure that the bill does not preclude kids from expressing their disdain of gays. Now, I'm all in favor of maximizing free speech, but the bill even contains language expressly ensuring that such expressions of opinion would be protected. I'm also skeptical of attempts to ban anything but clear verbal and physical bullying, since vaguer definitions are very hard to define. But what surely shouldn't be protected is the physical abuse of kids targeted as "faggots." Do some Christian conservatives actually believe that such bullying and name-calling should be defended? Do they actually regard such intimidation of gays (and many straights) as an important part of their children's education? Perhaps they know that without verbal and physical bullying of gay kids, social disapproval of homosexuality might wane. These attitudes start early, after all. But enforcing social norms by defending the bullying of children seems to me a pretty unconscionable position. By the same token, I can't see any reason either for why some conservatives support hate crime laws protecting every conceivable minority except homosexuals. This is George Bush's nutball position. I'm against all hate crime laws. But if you're going to have them at all, why should they exclude the group that is one of the most likely to be targeted? This discrepancy is a signal. It's saying subtly to thugs: "Hate crimes are bad, but we understand it if you hate homos. That's a defensible pretext for bashing - or at least more defensible than bashing someone who's black or Jewish or Mormon." I can't believe that most humane conservatives really feel that way; or even that those who sincerely oppose homosexual equality still believe it's ok to slur, bully, attack or wound gay kids or adults. So why support policies that do just that? How about changing the tone, Mr President?

This is what many warned about. Even the homosexuals who helped us elect Bush are now asking for payback and pressuring Bush to legitimize their AIDS lifestyle. Shame on you Andrew Sullivan. If only a single vulnerable teen is recruited because of your rhetoric and contracts HIV, our Creator is watching.

171 Posted on 05/03/2001 16:34:06 PDT by SpecialForcesVet
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RE: "Homosexuals are only 1 or 2 percent of the general population (despite their inflated claims — also propagandist — of 10 percent), yet they are wildly disproportionate among pedophiles." I'd like to see a source on that. Anyone ?

Allow me to help.

The percentage of the general population that identifies itself as homosexual is actually much smaller than 10%. The original figure of 10%, provided by Dr. Alfred Kinsey (a zoologist who conducted sexual research without any psychological or psychiatric training) has never been duplicated by reputable researchers. For example, a 1991 national survey of sexually active adults done by the National Opinion Research Center shows that 98.4% of adults were exclusively heterosexual. (Smith TW. “Adult Sexual Behavior in 1989.” Family Planning Perspectives 1991, 23: 104.) A 1993 survey by the Battelle Human Affairs Research Centers found that only 1.1% of all Americans are exclusively homosexual. (Rensberger B. “How Many Men in US Are Gay?” Washington Post, April 17, 1993, p. A-1.)

A survey conducted by the Alan Guttmacher Institute in 1993 found that 1% of men consider themselves exclusively homosexual. (Barringer F. “Sex Survey of American Men Finds 1% Are Gay.” New York Times, April 15, 1993, p. A-1.) And a 1994 National Health and Social Life Survey at the University of Chicago found that 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual. (Vobejda B. “Survey Finds Most Adults Sexually Staid.” Washington Post, October 7, 1994, p. A-1.)

A March 1994 article in the American Journal of Psychiatry cites several surveys of American men showing the prevalence of homosexuality. For example, the National Survey of Men found that only 1.1% of men had been exclusively homosexual during the preceding ten years. Another study found that 2.4% of men are currently homosexual. (Cited by Seidman SN & Rieder RO. “A Review of Sexual Behavior in the United States.” American Journal of Psychiatry 1994, 151: 339.)

Evidence showing that pedophilia is in fact a common part of the homosexual lifestyle is staggering. Ironically, much of it comes from homosexuals themselves. In The Gay Report, for instance, a survey of “gay” attitudes and behavior by homosexual researchers Jay and Young, revealed data showing that 73% of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger. (Jay K & Young A. The Gay Report. New York: Summit, 1979.)

Faced with these statistics, homosexual activists are now trying to deflect the discussion by claiming that male molesters of boys should not be considered homosexuals at all. But a recent study of Canadians imprisoned for pedophilia reveals the truth: (1) 30% of the offenders studied admitted to having engaged in homosexual acts as adults, and (2) 91% of molesters of non-familial boys admitted to no lifetime sexual contact other than homosexual. In other words, their sexual orientation was clearly homosexual. (Marshall WL et al. “Early Onset and Deviant Sexuality in Child Molesters.” Journal of Interpersonal Violence 1991, 6: 323-336.)

In a desperate attempt to counter these numbers, many homosexual proponents claim that homosexuals are less of a threat to the innocence of the young than heterosexuals, because “heterosexuals commit a majority of child molestations.” The advocates conveniently fail to mention that since heterosexuals make up about 97% of the population, it would be incredibly surprising if they did not commit a majority of child molestations. What is extraordinary is the disproportionate amount of child molestation committed by homosexuals, relative to their presence in the general population.

Drs. Freund and Heasman of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two sizeable studies and calculated that 34% and 32% of the offenders against children were homosexual. In cases they had personally handled, homosexuals accounted for 36% of their 457 pedophiles. (Freund K et al. “Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality.” Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, 1984, 10: 193-200.)

Dr. Adrian Copeland, a psychiatrist who works with sexual offenders at the Peters Institute in Philadelphia, said that from his experience, pedophiles tend to be homosexual and “40% to 45%” of child molesters have had “significant homosexual experiences.” (Quoted by A Bass, Boston Globe, August 8, 1988.) A state-wide survey of 161 Vermont adolescents who committed sex offenses in 1984 found that 35 (22%) were homosexual. (Wassermann J et al. “Adolescent Sex Offenders -- Vermont, 1984.” Journal of the American Medical Ass’n 1986, 255: 181-2.)

Of the 91 molesters of non-related children at Canada’s Kingston Sexual Behaviour Clinic from 1978-1984, 38 (42%) engaged in homosexuality. (Marshall WL et al. “Early Onset and Deviant Sexuality in Child Molesters.” Journal of Interpersonal Violence 1991, 6: 323-336.) Of 52 child molesters in Ottawa from 1983 to 1985, 31 (60%) were homosexual. (Bradford JMW et al. “The Heterogeneity/Homogeneity of Pedophilia.” Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa 1988, 13: 217-226.)

The 1948 Kinsey survey found that 37% of male homosexuals and 2% of lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-17-year-olds, and 28% of male homosexuals and 1% of lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-16-year-olds while they themselves were aged 18 or older. (Gebhard PH & Johnson AB. The Kinsey Data. New York: Saunders, 1979.) In 1970, the Kinsey Institute interviewed 565 white male homosexuals in San Francisco: 25% of them admitted to having had sex with boys aged 16 or younger while they themselves were at least 21. (Bell AP & Weinberg MS. Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978.)

In another survey, 23% of male homosexuals and 6% of lesbians admitted to sexual interaction with youth less than 16 years of age. (Jay & Young, 1979, supra.) In France, 129 convicted male homosexuals (average age 34 years) said they had had sexual contact with a total of 11,007 boys (an average of 85 different boys per man). (O’Carroll T. Pedophilia: The Radical Case. Boston: Alyson, 1982.) Abel et al. reported similarly that men who molested girls outside their family had averaged 20 victims each; those who molested boys averaged 150 victims each. (Abel GG et al. “Self-Reported Sex Crimes of Non-Incarcerated Paraphiliacs.” Journal of Interpersonal Violence 1987, 2: 3-25.)

Now, let's do the math. If 2% of the male population (the portion that is homosexual) is responsible for 40% of the child molesting cases, and the other 98% of the male population (the portion that is heterosexual) is responsible for the other 60% of the child molesting cases, it's clear that homosexuals are many times more likely to molest children. How many more times?

Well, let's see. Dividing 40% by 2% produces 20, that's easy. Dividing 60% by 98% produces .6122449. Dividing 20 by .6122449 produces 32.66667. Homosexuals appear to be about 30 times more likely than heterosexuals to molest children.

172 Posted on 05/03/2001 18:27:14 PDT by Bryan
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"I loathe homosexuals".....

If you have a busy and peaceful life you don't have the time to loathe anyone or anything. The problem I have with all the examples of whom one might loathe is: if you don't push your lifestyle on another, than they will not loathe you.

In other words, love your brother, and let them make their own choices as long as they don't push their lifestyle on you or your family. If they try to, your still free to just walk away. Loathing (hate) is very destructive.....IHS

173 Posted on 05/03/2001 18:34:02 PDT by SJLKickdragon
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"If you have a busy and peaceful life you don't have the time to loathe anyone or anything. The problem I have with all the examples of whom one might loathe is: if you don't push your lifestyle on another, than they will not loathe you."

I don't know what you mean by "push your lifestyle", but you're going to have a hard time convincing the average American that homosexuality is an equal to heterosexuality. It's just the natural order of things. When George W. introduces his wife and bedroom partner during interviews and talks about the importance of his marriage and lifestyle that is great because it encourages our kids to respect family values. But a homosexual really has no business publicizing his private life. Can you imagine someone like Arizona Rep. Steve May talking about his male lover and what he means to him? People would just be plain grossed out.

174 Posted on 05/03/2001 18:48:07 PDT by SpecialForcesVet
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Joseph Sobran -- Libertarian

175 Posted on 05/03/2001 18:55:12 PDT by tex-oma
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I dont think ive ever seen anyone link the worldwide spread of aids to homosexuals. It seems clear that aids would have never become a problem without these genetic freaks. How many innocent, non-queer people are dead or dying as a result of their activities.

176 Posted on 05/03/2001 18:55:46 PDT by Mr. Polish-hammer
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The majority of the stats on this come from crime reports of sexual molestations. Accoding to the FBI crime stats homosexual molestations make up mor thatn 50% of all of the molestation cases in the U.S.. Even thought homoesexuals only represent about one to two percent of the population they committ about half of the child molestations of the same sex as the adult molestor.

177 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:07:00 PDT by alpinist (Amendment Two -- Colorado)
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"You are a moral statist"

and what are you????.....

178 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:11:07 PDT by SJLKickdragon
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take a gander at my profile

179 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:17:53 PDT by rb22982
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Some of them are funny, kind, intelligent, and otherwise pleasant

Some are big and some are small
Some are in between
Some are yellow bellied queer
Some of them are mean

180 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:25:45 PDT by Uncle Meat
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I am withholding my opinion either way until homosexuality is proven to be genetic OR behavioral. Regardless, even if genetic, their "lifestyle" should never be accepted as desirable or mainstream. If it is behavioral my revulsion would be as deep a Sobren's. If the "gay" gene is ever found it would be both morally and ethically wrong to punish them in any way except to deny their attempts to "pro-create" using surrogate mothers or donor sperm. Based on life experience and the Homosexuals I have known I am leaning toward the genetic answer.

181 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:28:19 PDT by Texasforever
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bump

182 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:37:32 PDT by RaceBannon
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Sorry,don't know how that reply got posted under your name.

183 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:37:58 PDT by Uncle Meat
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How was that punctuation?

MUCH better. You'll receive instructions for the secret handshake in a sealed envelope delivered by private courier in a few days. Please note: the "gun zealots" believe as I do; that the RIGHT to bear arms was guaranteed to the citizens of this country by the Second Amendment. The RIGHT to date whoever or whatever you want does not appear in the Constitution, so the comparison you proffer is moot. Personally; date who you want...many of us just prefer that homosexual "zealots" keep it out of our schools and out of our face...simple as that. They will be judged by One more qualified than anyone else currently walking the earth.

184 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:40:54 PDT by who knows what evil?
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What I mean by "push your lifestyle" is that I don't like the fact that alternate life styles are being taught in the public schools, because the majority of people are not homosexuals: example look at what they are trying to do to the Boy Scouts of America.

"But a homosexual really has no business publicizing his private life"

Again, I agree with you. All I was saying is that; if they kept their mouths closed, nobody would know how ignorant they were....IHS

185 Posted on 05/03/2001 19:43:04 PDT by SJLKickdragon
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good points. I agree wholeheartedly.

186 Posted on 05/03/2001 20:27:26 PDT by SpecialForcesVet
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Not only are heterosexuals not proud, but if they even thought about a straight pride parade, the groupthinking diversiphobic press would slaughter them before they got started.

Who would march in such a parade? And why?

187 Posted on 05/03/2001 20:30:11 PDT by Dec31,1999
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I'd like to see a source on that. Anyone ?

Yes, get Dr Paul Cameron's book "The Gay Nineties - What the Empirical Evidence Reveals about Homosexuality".
ISBN# 1-884067-00-x

Excellent source book, widely criticized by the Homosexual community for obvious reasons, but brings all the real statistics out.

188 Posted on 05/03/2001 22:51:18 PDT by AgThorn
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Found some additional source material, written by Dr Paul Cameron:

Paul Cameron's own web site, with newsletters, reports, pamphlets, and audiotapes.
  Online copies of some Cameron pamphlets:

1. Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do
    
2. Child Molestation and Homosexuality
    
3. What Causes Homosexual Desire and Can It Be Changed?
    
4. Same Sex Marriage: Till Death Do Us Part?
    
5. The Psychology of Homosexuality
    
6. Violence and Homosexuality
    
7. Born What Way?
   

Dr. Cameron (FRI) vs. Dave Garrity (MGLPA)
May 29, 2000
Debate Topic: "Special Rights" for Homosexuals

189 Posted on 05/03/2001 23:07:01 PDT by AgThorn
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The real audio links didn't post well ... just go to the http://www.familyresearchinst.org/
it's at the bottom of the page.

Link

190 Posted on 05/03/2001 23:15:27 PDT by AgThorn
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Dr.Cameron presented some of this data on the gay lifestyle to a Denver schoolboard meeting held three years ago.This was open to the public to discuss proposals for more gay teachers,crossdressimg teachers,plus more gay teacher and student support group activity.My wife and I attended to support traditional values and were the only laypersons to speak against.There were over a hundred loud,vulgar,and exhibitionist queer students and teachers present--of which about a dozen spoke in support.

Dr.Cameron neatly pointed out how illogical it was for school authorities to demonize smoking while encouraging sodomy(about eight times more effective in shortening a man's lifespan).The audience booed,hissed,and threw stuff after his speech.Then one lady(!)sb member chewed him out as a racist for ten minutes.I received similiar treatment although my beautiful Hispanic wife did not.

Better homeschool your kids if not already.

191 Posted on 05/04/2001 09:01:12 PDT by IGNATIUS
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I believe "Dr." Cameron is a supporter of the neo-Nazi movement and eugenics as well.

192 Posted on 05/04/2001 09:20:21 PDT by ehat
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Please don't cut this thread, just eliminate the inevitable nasty rhetoric, it is a very good reference post for any future arguements. It'll save alot of redundant posting...

193 Posted on 05/04/2001 09:25:58 PDT by doubtfullyhopefull
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Oh there you are, I was wondering when you would mosey on over here and try to get this thread pulled!

194 Posted on 05/04/2001 09:28:16 PDT by doubtfullyhopefull
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25 April 2001

      WEST HOLLYWOOD, CA--The mainstream acceptance of gays and lesbians, a hard-won civil-rights victory gained through decades of struggle against prejudice and discrimination, was set back at least 50 years Saturday in the wake of the annual Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade.

	Above: Participants in Saturday's Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade, which helped change straight people's tolerant attitudes toward gays.

      "I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."

      The parade, organized by the Los Angeles Gay And Lesbian And Bisexual And Transvestite And Transgender Alliance (LAGALABATATA), was intended to "promote acceptance, tolerance, and equality for the city's gay community." Just the opposite, however, was accomplished, as the event confirmed the worst fears of thousands of non-gay spectators, cementing in their minds a debauched and distorted image of gay life straight out of the most virulent right-wing hate literature.

      Among the parade sights and sounds that did inestimable harm to the gay-rights cause: a group of obese women in leather biker outfits passing out clitoris-shaped lollipops to horrified onlookers; a man in military uniform leading a submissive masochist, clad in diapers and a baby bonnet, around on a dog leash; several Hispanic dancers in rainbow wigs and miniskirts performing "humping" motions on a mannequin dressed as the Pope; and a dozen gyrating drag queens in see-through dresses holding penis-shaped beer bottles that appeared to spurt ejaculation-like foam when shaken and poured onto passersby.

      Timothy Orosco, 51, a local Walgreens manager whose store is on the parade route, changed his attitude toward gays as a result of the event.

      "They kept chanting things like, 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it!' and 'Hey, hey, we're gay, we're not going to go away!'" Orosco said. "All I can say is, I was used to it, but now, although I'd never felt this way before, I wish they would go away."

      Allison Weber, 43, an El Segundo marketing consultant, also had her perceptions and assumptions about gays challenged by the parade.

      "My understanding was that gay people are just like everybody else--decent, hard-working people who care about their communities and have loving, committed relationships," Weber said. "But, after this terrifying spectacle, I don't want them teaching my kids or living in my neighborhood."

      The parade's influence extended beyond L.A.'s borders, altering the attitudes of straight people across America. Footage of the event was featured on telecasts of The 700 Club as "proof of the sin-steeped world of homosexuality." A photo spread in Monday's USA Today chronicled many of the event's vulgar displays--understood by gays to be tongue-in-cheek "high camp"--which horrified previously tolerant people from coast to coast.

Above: Members of the Laguna Beach Leatherdaddy Association make their final pre-march preparations.

      Dr. Henry Thorne, a New York University history professor who has written several books about the gay-rights movement, explained the misunderstanding.

      "After centuries of oppression as an 'invisible' segment of society, gays, emboldened by the 1969 Stonewall uprising, took to the streets in the early '70s with an 'in-your-face' attitude. Confronting the worst prejudices of a world that didn't accept them, they fought back against these prejudices with exaggeration and parody, reclaiming their enemies' worst stereotypes about them and turning them into symbols of gay pride," Thorne said. "Thirty years later, gays have won far greater acceptance in the world at large, but they keep doing this stuff anyway."

      "Mostly, I think, because it's really fun," Thorne added.

      The Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade, Thorne noted, is part of a decades-old gay-rights tradition. But, for mainstream heterosexuals unfamiliar with irony and the reclamation of stereotypes for the purpose of exploding them, the parade resembled an invasion of grotesque outer-space mutants, bent on the destruction of the human race.

      "I have a cousin who's a gay, and he seemed like a decent enough guy to me," said Iowa City, IA, resident Russ Linder, in Los Angeles for a weekend sales seminar. "Now, thanks to this parade, I realize what a freak he's been all along. Gays are all sick, immoral perverts."

      Parade organizers vowed to make changes in the wake of the negative reaction among heterosexuals.

      "I knew it. I said we needed 100 dancers on the 'Show Us Your Ass' float, but everybody insisted that 50 would be enough," said Lady Labia, spokesperson for LAGALABATATA. "Next year, we're really going to give those breeders something to look at."

195 Posted on 05/04/2001 10:36:27 PDT by Condorman
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Who says the homosexual community doesn't speak out against gay pride parades?

196 Posted on 05/04/2001 10:41:15 PDT by Condorman
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"Then 2% of men (gays) do 50% of the overall molesting (male victims). Gays are 25 times more likely to be molesters than straights."

Your math is based on a faulty premise. Pedophilia is not about sex, it's about conquest. The gender of their victims is inconsequential to the triumph if seduction. MARRIED men often molest boys. Are they gay?

197 Posted on 05/04/2001 10:57:32 PDT by calvin
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"Try the FBI. 33% of pedophiles are homosexual."

Wrong. 33% involve the male pedophile with a male victim. This does not mean the pedophile is homosexual.

198 Posted on 05/04/2001 11:00:51 PDT by calvin
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Great article. I agree 100%. let's see...if a man sodomizes a boy...can he be considered heterosexual in any sense of the word? Of course not! Any many who molests a boy MUST BE homosexual by definition. Case closed. In the last century, homosexuals were correctly called "sodomites". I say we bring back the proper terminology.

199 Posted on 05/04/2001 11:03:20 PDT by exmarine
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