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KOCOTV News, Channel 5, the ABC affiliate in OKC did a special report on responses it received from Tim McVeigh on May 4, 2001. McVeigh answered 10 of 24 questions posed to him by KOCOTV News 5's Terri Watkins. The list of the questions and the answers can be found on KOCOTV’s web site at www.channeloklahoma.com.
I saw and taped the broadcast. McVeigh’s answers were shown in his own handwriting during the broadcast in an attempt by KOCOTV to show that the answered were authentic. I did notice from the taped broadcast that there may have been some slight and subtle differences between the responses broadcast on TV and the ones given on KOCO’s website. I have not yet studied these differences yet to see if the differences are significant.
In what follows I paraphrase some of the questions and answers and discuss how McVeigh’s answers offer new insights into the OKC bombing. But I still do not know if we can believe everything McVeigh has said or wrote to KOCOTV. I have grouped the questions together by category for the purposes of my analysis and comment.
When asked if any others besides Michael Fortier and Terry Nichols knew in advance about the bombing McVeigh replied that Lori Fortier, Michael Fortier’s wife did, but no one else did. This was for question 1.
He was asked in question 10 how many times he and others cased the building. McVeigh told KOCO that he cased the Murrah building 3 or 4 times with Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier at different times.
In question 22 McVeigh was asked about the role of the methanphetamine crowd near Kingman Arizona who knew Fortier such as a Mr. Rosencranz. McVeigh said they played no role but he also said may have met them because of their “tagging along“ with McVeigh and Fortier in Arizona.
McVeigh’s response to question 21 was that Steve Colburn, an explosives chemist of Arizona, did not help him and he claimed he never met Colburn.
Commentary on questions 1,10,21 and 22:
If Lori Fortier was involved then why was she not prosecuted like her husband was? Melvin Beall, a security guard, and three other employees at a public utility building (OG&E) in OKC near the Murrah Building told the FBI, the assistant US prosecutor, Ted Richardson, the investigator for the OK County grand jury, Dillinger, and KTOK radio in OKC that McVeigh, Mike Fortier, Jenifer McVeigh ,Mike Fortier and LORI FORTIER visited them on April 7, 1995 to ask them about the Murrah Building. Note for question 10 that McVeigh says Fortier helped him case the building. Well, was Lori Fortier with them when they cased the building during one of the three or four times?
According to Dan Hebeck and Lou Micelle, authors of the book, “American Terrorist”, McVeigh had told them no others besides Nichols were involved, but did McVeigh exclude Lori Fortier in his interviews with them or did they accurately report what he told them?
What is interesting about replies to questions 21 and 22 is that the “meth” crowd that ran with McVeigh and Fortier would likely have learned from at least Fortier if not McVeigh about the OKC bombing and may have helped. Arkansas gun dealer Roger Moore testified at the McVeigh trial that he introduced Colburn to McVeigh because he knew both men and had sold them ammunition. Numerous stories came out that Colburn’s pickup truck following McVeigh pulled over when McVeigh was stopped by OK Highway patrol trooper Charles Hanger and the license plate on the pickup was allegedly recorded by Hanger’s video camera. Hanger and the FBI have not made the video tape available and Hanger admitted he took the tape home and reviewed it.
Neighbors of the Fortiers contend that Fortier and Rosecrans left Kingman about two weeks before the OKC bombing and did not return until several days after the bombing. Colburn was arrested in Arizona in May 1995 for weapons charges and had a “meth” facility on his property as reported in the New York Times on May 13, 1995. The NY Times reported that Colburn was a chemist who had built and tested bombs in the Arizona desert. During the McVeigh trial it was reported that a note had been found in the Artizona desert on a high power line written by McVeigh to Colburn.
McVeigh gave these answers to questions about the truck bomb:
McVeigh answered question 3 by saying that he did not use detonation cord or dynamite. He said he used “Tovex” and "Primadet"(shock tube) instead.
For question 15 McVeigh described the references he studied to design (engineer) and build the truck bomb. The list of references McVeigh gave were:
A book circulated on the gun show circuit entitled "Two-Component High-Explosive Mixtures". He said he learned later from an FBI 302 that the wrong AN/NM [amonium nitrate/nitromethane] ratio was given in the book.
The Turner Diaries
Encyclopedias
The Prime Time Live program in late March 2001 did a reenactment of how they claimed McVeigh told Herbeck and Michel the truck bomb was built. In that account a five minute and a two minute fuse were described as ingniting the truck bomb. Yet in his response to KOCOTV McVeigh says no detonator cord or fuse was used. So how is the discrepancy to be explained? Did McVeigh change his story, did the authors report correctly what McVeigh told them or is there some other explanation?
If the wrong ratio of ammonium nitrate to nitro methane was given in the book he used, did McVeigh use the wrong ratio? If so, would this mean that the truck bomb was not as powerful as he had intended and thereby not account for the pattern and extend of damage and suggest additional devices were used? A fresh dynamite wrapper was found in the Murrah building rubble aaccording to McVeigh trial testimony, yet McVeigh said no dynamite was used. Dr. Heath, the head of the VA office in the building says he heard a dynamite blast first then a truck bomb. Here is another discrepancy. Were the reports of dynamite correct? If they were correct, did McVeigh use dyamite or did others either known or unknown to him use dynamite? Was dynamite illegally stored in the building?
Also Heath has told a number of journalists (Bill Jasper of the New American, and others) in my presence that McVeigh, Mike Fortier and either an Indian or a Middle Eastern man came to his office on April 7, 1995 in the Murrah building saying they were looking for jobs. This is believed to be the same day Beall and his coworkers spoke to McVeigh, Fortier and his wife Lori Fortier at the public utility building near the Murrah building. Heath says the FBI threatened to destroy his reputation in OKC if he talked publicly and gave any more TV interviews about the John Does he saw with McVeigh in his office. Heath’s story like that of Beall and his coworkers bares upon the answer McVeigh gave about Lori Fortier’s involvement in question 1.
McVeigh said that he has tried to talk about the mistakes the federal prosecutors and the FBI made in the investigation, but he claimed he did not make “the cut”. He invited KOCOTV to do a story about the mistakes made by the FBI and the prosecutors that he tried but failed to get out himself. This was covered by question 20.
McVeigh’s answer to question 20 implies that his attorneys or perhaps others did not help McVeigh get his story out about what the FBI and prosecutors did wrong. Did Stephen Jones not listen to or help McVeigh with McVeigh’s knowledge and complaints about incorrect things FBI agents and prosecutors did at the trials? Did McVeigh try to tell others outside of prison through his attorneys or others what he knew was incorrect about the FBI and US prosecutors statements?
If McVeigh’s knowledge and complaints had gotten told we may have learned more of what really happened. Is it possible that the government and/or his attorneys may have blocked McVeigh from telling anything incriminating about the government’s sting operation role and their foreknowledge? Or it is possible that McVeigh could have lied anyway even if his story were told and had gotten out?
I doubt that KOCO will help McVeigh tell the story as he invited them to do. KOCOTV’s Terri Watkins who corresponded with McVeigh to get the questions answered has very close and long standing ties to the FBI and to a member of the US prosecution team, Vicki Bohenna, who went to high school with Mrs. Watkins. I have spoken to Watkins many times before and after the OKC bombing.
BUMP
i am beginning to become more convinced that WACO/Oklahoma City are truly monumental and scarring historical events
Thank you for studying into this. I was unaware of this interview. I'm so thankful for Free Republic, keep up the tireless work Patrick.
Bump!
Mr. Briley: your unflagging efforts are greatly appreciated. Truth is lovely, lies are ugly and dangerous.
It seems as if McVeigh knowing the end is near for him is talking and more may come out before his execution. The question becomes, can we trust anything he says except where facts can be verified? Maybe this is why Louis Freeh is leaving?
Great recap, thanks! BUMP
But I still do not know if we can believe everything McVeigh has said or wrote to KOCOTV.
TRANSLATION: "D*mn, no more fodder for our conspiracy theories! Now I've gotta sift and rehash the same ol' cr*p to keep it smelling fresh!"
Hi Regestered! Just wanted to say thankx for all the fantastic art, TLI.
Good questions you raise.
In the camera shots of McVeigh's handwritten answers, can you tell that the answers are in sequence? IOW, I'm wondering whether he may have providend answers to more than 10 questions. Suppose you can get KOCO to show you the handwritten note?
What is your opinion of Terri Watkins?
Again i bring the case of Ed Salvatori (sp), and his thirty years illegal detention by the FBI and DOJ.
Why should we believe anything that makes larry potts and Lon H heros.
The more I hear about OKC and the more I hear about the FBI, the more I believe the FBI caused it.
I am so sick and tired of hearing about this bum everyday. All I can say is grill him, the sooner the better!
It is curious that Louis Freeh is leaving in June. Why did he wait until June? He has to make sure McVeigh is dead before he leaves the FBI so he can keep covering stuff up as McVeigh keeps revealing stuff? I say it's damage control until McVeigh is gone.
McVeigh answered question 3 by saying that he did not use detonation cord or dynamite. He said he used “Tovex” and "Primadet"(shock tube) instead.
I know what det cord (instantaneous burn) and fuses (slow burn) are; but I'm not familiar with Tovex or Primadet. Could anyone explain what type of igniting devices they are in layman's terms?
KOCO repeatedly claimed during their broadcast that they only got 10 of the 24 questions answered. They did not decribe in any detail what the 14 unanswered questions were except to say they were of a personal nature,like do you believe in a Heaven or Hell,etc. I taped the broadcast and you can see on the tape ( I also saw it on the broadcast)in McVeigh's handwriting some of the answers to some of the questions.
its not just him!! he gets a big show execution and the gov. criminals at Waco get what?
its a monumental hypocrisy, it is not an accidental juxtaposition for the bomber McVeigh
McVeigh’s answer to question 20 implies that his attorneys or perhaps others did not help McVeigh get his story out about what the FBI and prosecutors did wrong. Did Stephen Jones not listen to or help McVeigh with McVeigh’s knowledge and complaints about incorrect things FBI agents and prosecutors did at the trials?
IMHO McVeigh's prosecutors made a trial of 10% fact and 90% fear-mongering. An enourmous challenge to go toe-to-toe with a justice department bent on taking attention away from it's own crimes. I doubt it would have changed the outcome for McVeigh, but Jones did the American public a disservice by not going on the counter-offensive and attacking the government for it's own lies and shameless propaganda offensive.
Timothy McVeigh's Answers To 24 Questions
19 posts and no paid disinformation responses.... ?
What, is Saturday a holiday on Federal payrolls?
Good observation. The gummint agents haven't invaded this thread yet.
"McVeigh’s answers were shown in his own handwriting during the broadcast in an attempt by KOCOTV to show that the answered were authentic. "
Oh? And how many viewers know what McVeigh's handwriting actually looks like?
The propagandists must rally be worried. They are working overtime on the myth of the "lone bomber".
Last in a four-part series
A former head of the Boston office of the FBI reportedly leaked the identity of a confidential informant shortly before the informant was murdered, allegedly by James J. ``Whitey'' Bulger and his gang, according to a former FBI supervisor.
In interviews with the Herald, Robert Fitzpatrick, the FBI's second in command in Boston from 1980 to 1986, said he told Justice Department officials about the alleged leak by then Special Agent in Charge James Greenleaf, but no investigation was ever done.
The informant was John McIntyre and, before he was murdered in November 1984, he was cooperating with federal and local investigators, providing incriminating information about Bulger's involvement in gun shipments to the Irish Republican Army and drug trafficking.
McIntyre was officially missing until his remains were found in a shallow grave in Dorchester last year. Last fall, Bulger and his cohort, Stephen ``The Rifleman'' Flemmi, were charged with his murder.
Fitzpatrick, who agreed to speak with the Herald and the CBS television program ``60 Minutes,'' is the first former agent to point the finger at a high-ranking FBI official in the ongoing scandal enveloping the bureau's Boston office.
The 21-year FBI veteran, who worked on a series of high-profile FBI cases before he was transferred to Boston, said the corruption he saw in the Boston office was ``systemic'' and included many more agents than have been implicated thus far.
``I've been in 10 (FBI) offices and I've never been in an office like this,'' Fitzpatrick said. ``The stupidity, the arrogance, the treachery is Machiavellian. It goes off the charts.''
The most disturbing result of that treachery, Fitzpatrick said, is that gangsters Bulger and Flemmi, while under the protection of the FBI as ``top echelon'' informants, were empowered to commit a slew of murders without fear of prosecution.
Because of that, he said, the FBI shares the blame for many of those killings.
``Innocent people were killed, murdered, and I hold certain agents responsible for that,'' Fitzpatrick said.
Chiefly responsible, Fitzpatrick said, are former agents John J. Connolly Jr., who handled Bulger and Flemmi as informants for 15 years, and Connolly's former supervisor in the organized crime squad, John Morris.
Fitzpatrick reserved his harshest judgment for Connolly, who he said turned the traditional relationship between an FBI agent and his criminal informants on its head.
``Connolly turned out to be an informant,'' Fitzpatrick said. ``Connolly let Bulger inside the FBI.
``When everybody was asleep, this guy (Connolly) went down and grabbed all this stuff and gave it out, anything Bulger needed, the information about criminal competitors, information about others ratting him out, information about other law enforcement agencies.''
Connolly was charged last year with obstruction of justice for allegedly giving Bulger and Flemmi the names of two informants and one witness who were later murdered by the two gangsters.
Fitzpatrick, 61, said he received credible information in the spring of 1985 from an FBI supervisor that then-Boston SAC Greenleaf had leaked the identity of an informant to a criminal defense lawyer.
That supervisor, Thomas MacGeorge, then the head of the public corruption squad, came into Fitzpatrick's office and told him he had found out ``who's been leaking,'' Fitzpatrick said.
MacGeorge said Greenleaf had told a criminal defense lawyer named Martin D. Boudreau the name of ``the informant who's missing.'' According to Fitzpatrick, MacGeorge insisted ``the information was accurate.''
Fitzpatrick said he later learned that the missing informant was McIntyre, who until he disappeared had been feeding the government information about Bulger's criminal activities.
When the alleged leak occurred, Boudreau, a former federal Organized Crime Strike Force prosecutor, was representing major drug traffickers. Also at that time, Bulger and Flemmi were collecting large ``tribute'' payments from traffickers doing business in the Boston area.
Contacted last week, Greenleaf, who ran the FBI's Boston office from 1982 to 1986, refused to discuss Fitzpatrick's leak allegation or the murder of McIntyre. He said any comments he might make would be ``unfair and totally inappropriate'' because of ongoing federal investigations and civil suits filed recently by families of murder victims.
``The less said to newspapers, the better,'' Greenleaf said. ``Let the process work.''
MacGeorge, who now runs a private security firm in Florida, claimed to have no recollection of notifying Fitzpatrick about a leak and declined further comment.
Boudreau said, ``That's absolutely untrue. I categorically deny it. James Greenleaf never told me anything of that nature.''
Immediately after he was approached by MacGeorge, Fitzpatrick said he placed a call to Jeremiah O'Sullivan, then the chief of the Organized Crime Strike Force in Boston, and told him about Greenleaf's alleged leak.
According to Fitzpatrick, O'Sullivan responded by saying that he had known about it for two weeks. When Fitzpatrick asked him what he planned to do, O'Sullivan reportedly said he was going to call the Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility.
Fitzpatrick next notified John Glover, who at the time was the assistant director of the FBI's internal policing unit in Washington. Glover ordered him not to discuss the alleged leak with anyone or write a report about it, Fitzpatrick said.
O'Sullivan, through his attorney, Hugh Scott, said he never heard any allegation that Greenleaf leaked McIntyre's name to Boudreau. Asked about the call from Fitzpatrick, Scott said: ``Mr. O'Sullivan says absolutely and unequivocably that it did not (happen).''
A secretary at Bristol-Myers Squibb Co., where Glover is vice president of security, said Glover does not discuss FBI matters with the press.
Greenleaf left as head of the FBI in Boston in 1986 and retired from the bureau in 1994.
In 1998, Greenleaf was called back to Boston to testify before U.S. District Court Judge Mark L. Wolf during lengthy pre-trial hearings on the FBI's relationship with Bulger and Flemmi.
On the stand, Greenleaf said that while he was in charge of the Boston office he did not initiate any investigations of Bulger and Flemmi. He claimed he was never told that Bulger and Flemmi were involved in gambling, loan-sharking, extortion and drug dealing.
Fitzpatrick testified at those same hearings, but he was cut off when the subject of Greenleaf's alleged leak was raised.
Defense attorney Kenneth Fishman asked Fitzpatrick if he had ever bypassed his boss and reported a leak directly to FBI headquarters in Washington.
Fitzpatrick answered ``yes,'' but when Fishman asked him to elaborate, assistant U.S. Attorney James Herbert objected, saying ``the details'' of Fitzpatrick's report of a leak were ``immaterial.''
There was an off-the-record sidebar conference and then Judge Wolf put a stop to further testimony about Greenleaf's alleged leak.
``So, the unchallenged testimony is that in one instance Mr. Fitzpatrick went over the head of the SAC headquarters and complained about a leak, and we're going to move on from there,'' Wolf said from the bench. The subject was never addressed again during the hearings.
Wolf, who at the time of the alleged leak by Greenleaf was chief of the public corruption unit in the U.S. Attorney's Office in Massachusetts, declined the Herald's request for an interview.
The consequences of the alleged corruption in the Boston FBI office were and will continue to be devastating, Fitzpatrick said.
``We lost the trust,'' Fitzpatrick said. ``Most people want to trust an agent and they certainly never think that if they told you something, it could get out. The whole idea of confidentiality is lost.''
Fitzpatrick said his efforts to report corruption inside the FBI, coupled with his repeated recommendations that Bulger be closed as an informant, were so unpopular internally that he became a pariah in the Boston office.
And after he reported Greenleaf, Fitzpatrick said he was a marked man.
In March 1986, one year after he reported Greenleaf, Fitzpatrick was charged internally with falsifying bureau records while reviewing an incident on Cape Cod in which another agent discharged his weapon during a drug investigation. Three months later, a recommendation was made that he be demoted to field agent.
Fitzpatrick responded by filing a complaint with the Merit Systems Protection Board, claiming the charges were false and that they were brought against him as retaliation for reporting Greenleaf.
In September 1986, Fitzpatrick reached a settlement with the FBI in which the bureau agreed to withdraw Fitzpatrick's demotion and remove any mention of it from FBI files, MSPB records show. In December of that year, Fitzpatrick resigned from the FBI. Thirteen years later, Fitzpatrick's reputation took another hit, this time at the hands of Judge Wolf.
In his 661-page decision following the yearlong hearings, Wolf concluded that Fitzpatrick ``successfully opposed'' a request by FBI agents from Oklahoma City to interview Bulger and Flemmi about their possible role in the 1981 murder of a Tulsa businessman. According to Wolf, Fitzpatrick did that in part by falsely claiming he had already interviewed Bulger about the matter.
Fitzpatrick said the decision to prevent the Bulger interview was made not by him, but by officials at FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. Furthermore, Fitzpatrick said, when he interviewed Bulger in 1981, he did not ask him about the murder of the Tulsa businessman, nor did he later claim to have done so.
Based on Wolf's written decision, Fitzpatrick was named as a defendant in two civil lawsuits filed last month by relatives of people allegedly slain by Bulger and Flemmi. A lawyer for one of the plaintiffs, however, has said Fitzpatrick is likely to be taken out of his case.
To this day, Fitzpatrick said, he is still trying to figure out how someone who tried to blow the whistle on corruption in the Boston office of the FBI came to be branded a dishonest agent.
``I was parachuted into Boston and killed in action,'' he said.
Thanks for the hard work.
BTTT and also see reply #16
Thanks for the heads up!
I don't give a hoot in hell for McVeigh, but I don't understand the rush to kill him. We have people on death row for 20 years before killing them. Why can't McVeigh have interviews, write books and stuff like the others. Give any monies to charity, but don't shut him up. We will have the "grassy knoll" theories one way or the other. The more info the better. There is just too much stuff that doesn't add up.
KOCO repeatedly claimed during their broadcast that they only got 10 of the 24 questions answered.
Rita Cosby of Fox News Channel also said only a fraction of the questions she posed were answered.
OK, here goes ....
is a small 3mm plastic tube that is lined with a very thin layer of explosive dust. It's primary use is for Non-Electric thus the term Non "el". The rate of detonation is about 6700 fps but the cool part is that the hose is not destroyed when the flash is sent down the tube. I have actually held the primadet in my hands while it was detonated. All one sees is a flash going down the tube and a loud bang from the other end that will detonate a cap via duration of pressure concept.....
The Nonel is distributed by Nitro Nobel or DYNO of Sweden and Norway respectivly. The primadet I believe is marketed by Royal Ordnance in England and possibly by Du pont under a different name.
As to it's plumbing and specific nuances I won't go into on a public forum as Bombmaking 101 is not needed.
is the trade name for a water gel based explosive distributed in Switzerland and exported by Societe Suisse des Explosifs, Brigue and also manufactured by Du pont. There are about 20 to 30 versions ranging from "shearing" charge's to aluminized common blasting agents. The commonly used versions are T1, 300, extra and "P2-PT" to Tovex Avalanche which is used as the moniker states..at Ski Resorts and mountain regions for Avalanche release...
Tovex is basicly a aqueous solution of ammonium nitrate which is mixed with other nitrates and sensitized fuels with just a trace of TNT or PETN ect ect and small bubbles introduced in such a manner that static pressure will not compress then.... I believe they are called "microballoons"
The relative equalivancy factors charts put TNT as a one and C-4 as one point three four with common ANFO in the point six zero range at the bottom of the chart. Tovex falls (based on the specific type) between ANFO and about 20 points shy of the C-4 in strenght or as some in the buisness state....."It's ability to do WORK as defined" .
"Brisance" which is the speed a explosive develops it's maximum power is fairly fast yet under that of C-4 or other exotics. Detonation Velocity of Tovex is around 4,000 fps and pure RDX (which is Royal Demolition Explosive) or it's base name Cyclonite is about 28,000 fps.
Hope that answers yer questions.....
Ya'll Stay Safe !
Squantos, I still believe the USAF General who said, "... that bomb? That damage? No way!"
BTW, wasn't it the Boston FBI Office who ignored the Walker Case for a few years, while the Walkers helped the Russkis and the North Vietnamese read our commo for a few years? They were obviously too busy framing Joe Salvati and running guns to the IRA.
Also BTW, the romantic IRA so popular in Boston, inundated Mother Ireland with cheap heroin.
Thanks for the run down - I'm out of date, how long have these been in wide use?
To Francohio.
a) The only way the government might convince me that one truck full of home-made nitrogen etc., designed from a pamphlet, by these clowns, could trash that building would be to do it again; with every news agency on the globe watching and a full examination to prove there were no explosives in the building itself.
Hell, I'd doubt that!
McVeigh is talking too much even though we are told he is only answering some of the questions .... I've got to beieve that he at least thinks he'll be slipping out the back door while TV interviewes the witnesses.
b) There would be no IRA if it were not for the money and material support sent to Ireland by expatriates in the USA. That's been going on way over a hundred and forty years and includes many of the same 'peaceloving' zealots who wanted the US to side with Germany in 1930's.
Side note: I was going to buy a '57 Ranchero from a guy once who stated his price, then told me that he'd waive the money for an AR-15 and some clothes for the widows and orphans. Neat people. (no sale)
Interesting that someone would speculate that dynamite may have been stored illegally in the Murrah building. I have never heard it mentioned that a sympathetic explosion may have contributed to the blast. It has been quite a few years since I studied the relationships of quantity, distance, and wave propagation speeds, but it seems like a truck bomb would have the ability to detonate other explosives some distance from the original blast epicenter.
--If Lori Fortier was involved then why was she not prosecuted like her husband was?--
She was granted immunity in exchange for her testimony. Everybody who knows anything about it knows that. But the group of those who know anything about it doesn't include 'Sub, or maybe he really does know better and is just trying to mislead people. He certainly ought to know better, it was in all the papers.
'Sub doesn't tell the truth. He pretends there's some big mystery when the answer is actually well known. He counts on the ignorance of his audience, to sell his little stories, and all too often he is not disappointed.
Of what was Michael Fortier convicted, 'Sub? You can answer that, I'm sure, so go ahead.
--What is interesting about replies to questions 21 and 22 is that the “meth” crowd that ran with McVeigh and Fortier would likely have learned from at least Fortier if not McVeigh about the OKC bombing and may have helped.--
'Sub is not telling the truth, again. Here are the actual question and answer for 22:
"22. Whyat [sic] role did the meth crowd -- the Rosencranz and other in Kingman -- play in the bombing? Were they help to build practice bombs? [McVeigh:] See Q #1. No role. (Didn't even know most of them; if met them, was tagging along w/me) "
There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in that answer which makes it "likely" the meth crowd knew anything. 'Sub is merely desperate to spin another one of his yarns.
And here's question 21, and the answer:
"21. Why wouldn't Steve Colburn help you? [Colburn [sic] is an Arizona physicist [sic] that McVeigh approached for help with making a bomb.] McVeigh: Never met him; never asked him; see Q #1"
Again, there is nothing whatsoever in the answer that makes 'Sub's spin "likely." 'Sub's remark is nothing but a conspiracy cult fantasy.
--Arkansas gun dealer Roger Moore testified at the McVeigh trial that he introduced Colburn to McVeigh because he knew both men and had sold them ammunition.--
Are you sure you're not a little mixed up, 'Sub? Are you sure you even have the right trial? Here's Moore's testimony from the Nichols trial:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
9393
Roger Moore - Cross
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, before the break, we were talking about Mr. Colbern.
3 Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did you and Ms. Anderson attempt to put Mr. Colbern in
6 touch with Timothy McVeigh?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. Do you deny that you and Ms. Anderson attempted to put
9 Mr. McVeigh in touch with Mr. Colbern?
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. Do you remember testifying before the grand jury in this
12 matter?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you remember being called down to Oklahoma City and
15 administered an oath and testifying before 23 citizens?
16 A. Certainly.
17 Q. And do you remember being asked the following questions and
18 being -- and making the following answers, page 50, line 6?
19 "Question: Just very briefly, can you" --
20 MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, could I just have a moment
21 to look at --
22 THE COURT: Yes, you may, if you have a transcript
23 there.
24 MR. TIGAR: I'm going to go down through 20.
25 MS. WILKINSON: Thank you. From line 6?
9394
Roger Moore - Cross
1 MR. TIGAR: Line 20. 6 to 20.
2 THE COURT: Do you have it?
3 MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
5 BY MR. TIGAR:
6 Q. "Question: Just very briefly, can you describe that to the
7 grand jury?
8 "Answer: Karen was talking to Steve Colbern one day,
9 and she said he was the type of guy that used to come out of
10 somewhere. I never did know where he worked. He would never
11 tell us that. He always talked to us on the phone. He seemed
12 to be kind of a loner. And she said he liked to do desert
13 maneuvers; and she said, 'I know somebody else in Kingman that
14 likes to do the same thing.'
15 "Question: And who was that?
16 "Answer: That was Tim McVeigh.
17 "Question: And did you folks put them in -- kind of
18 in communication with each other through --
19 "Answer: We attempted."
20 Do you remember being asked those questions and making
21 those answers?
22 A. Yes. When you say "we," that's probably the pivotal point.
23 Q. You said "we." Is that correct, sir?
24 A. I've said "they" a lot of times in the robbery, when I
25 meant one, just accidentally.
9395
Roger Moore - Cross
1 Q. So your testimony is that when you said "we" to the federal
2 grand jury, you meant "she"?
3 A. Yes.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Contrary to what 'Sub claims, Moore testified he never spoke to Colbern except on the phone, and he expressly denied introducing McVeigh and Colbern.
Always double-check what 'Sub posts; he has a terrible time getting things right.
If you have a McVeigh trial source for your remark, 'Sub, post the cite.
BTW, Anderson agreed she was the one who "introduced" McVeigh and Colbern, altho she had never met Colbern in person.
--During the McVeigh trial it was reported that a note had been found in the Artizona desert on a high power line written by McVeigh to Colburn.--
Which trial, 'Sub?
where's the big gov. run trial for the waco criminals...have any good info on that?
You are quite wrong about the Irish republican movement inundating Ireland with heroin. IRA controlled neighborhoods in Belfast and Derry City were no-go areas for drug dealers throughout the last 30 years of the shooting war. They have returned with their poison since the ceasefire. Many of the so-called "punishment beatings" that the British and American press have sensationalized over the past two years are actually republican neighborhood defense demanded and cheered by the residents.
--A fresh dynamite wrapper was found in the Murrah building rubble aaccording to McVeigh trial testimony,--
Which trial was that, 'Sub? You seem to be having a little trouble keeping your trials straight. Are you sure the testimony says what you claim it says? Let's take a look:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Burmeister, you were asked about a wrapper that you
examined. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall what color that wrapper was?
A. It was a brown -- slightly brown-paper-type material.
Q. You tested that for high-explosives residue?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find any?
A. No.
Q. And if it had been a dynamite wrapper, would you expect to
Steven Burmeister - Cross
find certain explosives residue?
A. Yes.
Q. What residues would you have expected to find?
A. Typically nitroglycerin would be the leading explosive.
There could also be EGDN, ethylene glycol dinitrate, as well as
any inorganic material such as sodium nitrate or ammonium
nitrate.
Q. Now, nitroglycerin as well as EGDN are both vaporous high
explosives; right?
A. Yes.
Q. If this had been a dynamite wrapper, would you expect those
residues to have seeped into the brown paper?
A. Yes.
Q. And you didn't find any of those?
A. No.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Always double-check anything 'Sub posts. You can't trust a word he writes.
You failed to give proper credit to Dr. Paul Heath, 'Sub. Tsk tsk. He's the president of the Murrah Building Survivors Association, which he founded.
--where's the big gov. run trial for the waco criminals...have any good info on that?--
Wish I did. We could bring back burning at the stake, just for them, and have a "hot dog" roast for a bunch of jack-booted thug hot dogs.
you mean they might be a little sensitive about being criticized for their cultroast? they must want their mommys
Wtih respect to reply #23:
Anderson was Roger Moore's lady friend who was very close to Moore. She says she put Colburn and McVegh in touch and she worked closely to run Moore's business. Moore spoke with Coburn on the phone and Moore knew what Anderson knew. In the MCVEIGH TRIAL Moore talked about his close association and advice and conversation with McVeigh. So we know Moore says he talked with Colburn and McVeigh and his lady friend talked to them both and Moore had to know. BTW, Moore recanted much of his testimony in a letter to US prosecutors about a year after the Nichols trial!
For question 22, My analysis or conclusion was that at least Fortier's "meth" friends likely learned of the bombing from at least Fortier. Why? Because they were close to Fortier and becasue Fortier was CONVICTED OF KNOWING ABOUT THE BOMBING IN ADVANCE WITHOUT TELLING THE USG. For McVeigh to admit that he or they tagged along with McVeigh and Fortier is a further indication that someone in the "meth" crown was IN A POSITION TO KNOW ABOUT THE BOMBING IN ADVANCE.
The poster of reply #23 does not use common sense or else is deliberately dense and is desperate to help the Feds and those in the local OK government who were culpable.
But he is too late to help the Feds and Ok state officials like Macy and Keating and former police Chief Sam Gonzales. There are too many cats out of the bag and too many cows out of the barn. He has already lost, put he either does not know it yet, or his ego is so big, he cannot face losing. Any nitpicking flaws he may identify and magnify in claims of "liar, liar" do not even dent the basic facts known to the public and those on FR that officials in the USG and OK government screwed the OKC bombing case up badly and are a threat to all law abiding citizens.
More on reply #23.
Dr. Paul Heath told a meeting of survisvors at St. Anthony's hospital in September 1996 that dyanmite went off first before the truck bomb exploded. Heath was challenged and asked to repeat his assertion (he repeated it) in the meeting by the Pentagon terrorism advisor, Jesse Clear who was also with Joe Camarrata, Paula Jones attorney at the same meeting. It is also a fact that the Daily Oklahoman reported in its coverage of the McVeigh trial that a dynamite wrapper had been found in the Murrah building. The FBI crime lab and the FBI agents who testified at the trials were found to have lied about OKC bombing evidence even by Janet Reno's blue ribbon committee after they investigated FBI chemist Fredrick Whitehurst's allegations.
As far as Heath meeting McVeigh and two John Does in his office on APril 7, 1995 at the Murrah Building:
Heath gave interviews to local TV in 1995 on the subject which were aired and he was threatened by the FBI over it. Heath also told me, Glen Wilburn (grandsons killed),William Jasper of the New American, and Nate Webb of KTOK radio in OKC the same story. Wilburn, Jasper and I taped Heath with his permission.
Is it possible that the poster of reply #23 has been deceived by others around him and he is now trying to deceive others because he does not know yet he has been deceived? Or is he trying so hard to deceive others in order to save himself from getting into trouble for something he knows he did wrong that was connected to the OKC bombing?? Hmmm???
It is interesting that he is taking a common defensive position and tactic of the FBI and DOJ when they get caught with their pants down by screaming "YOU CAN'T PROVE IT IN COURT (even if it is true)".
Thanks much, Squantos, for the explosives descriptions. That helps me alot.
Never a problem Fred....
Stay Safe !
OKCSubmariner, are you aware that the BATF stored explosives in the building they were housed in before moving to the Murrah building? I don't remember the name of the building, but it was pyramid shapped, and south of OKC, if I remember correctly. Explosives were found in the building after the BATF vacated the building. Has this ever been reported?
Roger Moore is the man who lied under oath about what weapons were stolen from him. He listed rifles purchased by Nichols in provable transactions. Where did Moore get the serial numbers of the rifles found to be in the possession of Nichols so he could falsify his lists, from the FBI or BATF? If not there, where? Why did the FBI and BATF allow the utilization of falsified information against Nichols? Why isn't Moore in jail for perjury?
An undercover narcotics officer personally told me about a group of people McVeigh was associated with who were meth dealers. The Government is unwilling to talk about this connection. Do you know why?
Bump
bttt
And, BF, you are quite right to correct me for that blanket indictment.
It was only certain rogue groups in the IRA, of which there were and are several, not to mention just plain gansters running under IRA Cover.
The fact remains, that Ireland suffered from them, not to mention a related AIDS problem from contaminated needles, that took a long time to get under control.
This is becoming more ridiculous by the minute. Really, could the prosecution have scripted better "answers" for McVeigh at his show trial? McVeigh has certainly opened up, hasn't he? Six years of frustrating silence on the subject, and now he can't seem to stop chanting "no conspiracy." Kind of like the media which will send him requests like this, but not interview him on tape, where the public can actually verify that McVeigh is not, in fact, actually screaming at his prison walls, "I never said any of that!" But the whole question is really moot, because Attorney General John Ashcroft has decreed, without any constitutional authority, that there will be no "more" public interviews of McVeigh. Hmmm- I must have missed all those other interviews.
You make a good case to question this latest pantload of alleged feedback from McVeigh.
These are all very good questions. McVeigh should die for his actions, but it is way too soon to kill him. We need more answers first.
You're right! Why the rush to kill this man? There are too many questions that need to be answered first. Life on death row is no picnic. What is the big hurry?
Flag to the post I replied to here, Mr. Squantos. Maybe you can answer Mr. Mertz' question?
Good job! Disregard my previous post, as you've already provided the requested expert information!!!
I know what det cord (instantaneous burn)
expanding on that. Det Cord burns at approx 25000 ft per second. I cannoit recall the exact time, but if a sigle line fo det cord were layed from coast to coast in the U.S. is would take 6 minutes to burn completely (that may be plus or minus..ti's been a while)..Nonetheless..many uses for detcord, great little invention..
Try this one on for size... It was from the front page of the Houston Chronicle (Houston's leading newspaper, and no conspiracy rag), and is from a very reputable news service:
"Third suspect identified in Oklahoma bombing"I still have the original issue of the Houston Chronicle with this article on its front page. I am not relying on anyone's say-so or a "copy received through the internet".
By Dan Thomasson and Peter Copeland
Scripps Howard News Service
[Printed on page A1 of the May 12, 1995 _Houston Chronicle_]A third man wanted in the Oklahoma City bombing has been identified as Steven Colbern, a fugitive from a previous firearms charge.
Colbern, aged 35 or 36, is described as 6-foot-1 and 195 pounds with green eyes, which roughly matches the description of John Doe II.
Law enforcement sources said Thursday night that Colbern was identified through his brown pickup. It was captured, by chance on video taken from the state trooper's car that stopped Timothy McVeigh for speeding only 80 minutes after the blast.
"That trooper had a hell of a day," a federal investigator said.
An automatic camera in the car of Trooper Charles Hanger was taping the arrest of McVeigh. In the background was the image of the pickup, which also pulled over while McVeigh was being questioned.
Sophisticated enhancement techniques were used to improve the video until investigators could read the license plate number.
The truck, registered to Colbern, contained traces of ammonium nitrate, believed to be the main explosive ingredient used in the bombing.
Colbern's age is uncertain. His address is unknown, but he shared a mail drop with McVeigh in Kingman, Ariz., sources said. The truck was found parked outside an abandoned mobile home in Kingman.
Colbern already was wanted on a federal firearms charge, officials said. He was arrested last summer in San Bernadino, Calif., for carrying a gun with a silencer. He was allowed to post bail but skipped.
[The rest of the article deals with McVeigh and Nichols, and makes no further mention of Colbern.]
This article has WAY too much specific information for it to be just a rumor mistakenly released on the Scripps Howard news service.
And it was printed just a few weeks after the actual bombing, while the evidence was still rapidly developing, before any conspiracy (or anti-conspiracy) "spin" had time to gain momentum and obscure basic facts.
So the question is, what in the hell happened to this clear, documented Steve Colbern connection?
What is the big hurry?
Am I wrong, or didn't McVeigh request that no more appeals take place and that they execute him asap?
Thanks for the heads up and the information!
Thanks for the heads up!
Check your private FR email for a message from me. Please respond by the Private Reply route. Thanks very much for the post.
see reply #55!
The insights of McVeigh:
"I'm gonna kill me some innocents in order to prove that I'm a good dude."
You're right. He isn't appealing and that speeded up the execution date. I don't think that is good enough reason to hurry to execute him now. I want answers and I want to make sure that everyone responsible is punished.