Click for full size document.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
Apparently you guys are surfing this web site.
Here's tomorrow's story.
Official documents confirming the presence of additional bombs in the Murrah Building.
The Tiffany Bible Affidavit.
Tiffany Bible was a paramedic called to the Murrah Building following the bombing. This affidavit reports three important facts.
1. The ATF were not in the building.
2. That the ATF was already putting out a story that the Murrah Building was bombed "because of Waco" only a few hours after the actual blast and before Tim McVeigh was even arested.
3. That an unexploded bomb was found attached to a gas line inside the building. This alone disproves the government's claim that the bombs were just practice materials owned by the BATF (which is not a bomb disposal agency, BTW).
The Arlene Blanchard Press Release.
Arlene was a survivor of the bombing. In this press release, issued at the time of her grand jury appearence, she reveals that she was ordered to keep silent about what she knew of the bombing by the Army under threat of court martial.
DoD Atlantic Command Memo.
This memo, issued 24 hours after the bombing, reports at least two additional bombs were found in the Murrah Building.
FEMA Situation Report.
This FEMA memo also reports at least two additional bombs were found in the Murrah Building.
U.S. Forces Command Daily Log
Again, confirmation of at least two additional bombs which were found in the Murrah Building.
Jane Graham Statement
This statement by a survivor tells of three men he saw in the Murrah Building Garage the week prior to the bombing, and the FBI's obvious disinterest in the matter.
Joe Harp Statement
Joe Harp, based on his military explosives experience, refutes the ANFO claim and identifies the additional bombs he sees removed from the building as being military in nature. This witness reports the military bomb as being painted green. Practice weapons are always painted blue for safty rasons. This eyewitness report of a green painted weapon also contradicts the govermnent's bovine excrement about the bombs being practice weapons (which relies on the assumption that trained bomb disposal personell in the police and fire departments would not know the difference).
Oklahoma Highway Patrol Radio Logs
These four pages are the radio log of the Oklahoma Hihgway Patrol. Note that the reports of additional bombs are confirmed by the fire department.
Good luck Mike.... I highly doubt they will investigate it but you never know.
Foxy Bump
Where do you get this stuff from? And, if you have access to it, why doesn't the news media? And if they do and are ignoring it, why bother bringing it to their attention?
Bump! (Nice post, Michael. You're armed and ready to unroll the facts. Lucky is the investigative journalist who is intelligent enough to realize that there is a story behind the story here.)
bump
"Good luck Mike.... I highly doubt they will investigate it but you never know."
Probably not, but with Fox broadcasting that it is watching Free Republic, everyone now KNOWS they know about these documents. If they do not report them, or try to explain them away with the government's already discredited excuses, Fox's credibility will take a big hit.
Mike, I do have my fingers crossed that this will indeed be the reason to look into every "tainted" case handled by our government and their minions, the FBI, Justice, Defense, Military and on and on... I really dont think it matters if McVeigh is alive to do all that.
"Where do you get this stuff from? And, if you have access to it, why doesn't the news media? "
The media does have access to it. But now at least Fox cannot pretend they never saw it.
As to why they don't cover this material, when you answer that question you will know who McVeigh was working for.
Why bother? Well it is a good start in catching the propoganda that our media uses or doesn't use to suit its agenda.
Why bother? Well it is a good start in catching the propoganda that our media uses or doesn't use to suit its agenda.
"Mike, I do have my fingers crossed that this will indeed be the reason to look into every "tainted" case handled by our government and their minions, the FBI, Justice, Defense, Military and on and on... I really dont think it matters if McVeigh is alive to do all that."
All of them is to much to ask under the current administration. But in the case of the Murrah bombing and TWA 800, the current administration has little to lose and much to gain by ripping the lid off, and laying the blame for the cover-ups, for the LIES, at the feet of the Democratic administration of Bill Clinton and the mainstream media who helped him do it.
If Fox is smart, they'll break ranks and blow the lid off themselves.
Well, Fox News did report that the FBI withheld documents, informants, and tapes from Alabama's investigation into the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing for over 30 years.
So word is slowly getting out that the FBI has a very (shall we say) "strange" habit of consistently withholding evidence in cases of domestic terrorism.
Well Michael, you know as well as I do there'll be more than a few pantloads on this thread who'll trash you for being a kook. If our own resident nutjobs can't find the wattage to grasp what you're saying, I doubt Fox will. All the more power to you fella for staying the course.
So who was he working for?
Michael, I am just as surprised as the next person about the hoopla regarding these new documents and their relevence if any to McVeigh.
Having said that I find it so amazing that it may well be the smoking gun that sets up new standards based on truth in our government which is all any of us ever asked for to avoid such tragedies in the first place.
Yeoman's work, Michael! The coverage and government reaction to the bombing has stunk to High Heaven from the git go.
I must admit that I have absolutely no confidence whatsoever that any fed agency or institution will do anything at all, no matter what turns up..."can't we all just move along?"
But, thank you for posting this. We haven't even glimpsed the tip of the iceberg of the clinton years...
MP
I have always said, if the media finally breaks just one of the following, OKC, the China Connection, Clinton's Criminality, the Foster Case, Waco or TWA Flight 800, it's likely the coverups will all tumbling down. Once the public understands our nation's highest law enforcement agencies and elected officials cooperated to stonewall these issues, they'll be a lot less likely to buy the party line from here on out. Here's to that one network that has the guts to cleanse this nation once and for all.
"Well Michael, you know as well as I do there'll be more than a few pantloads on this thread who'll trash you for being a kook. "
Yes, the shills are on overtime this weekend.
The media does have access to it. But now at least Fox cannot pretend they never saw it.
You are often wrong, but on this issue and TWA800 you are dead-nuts accurate.
Well, Fox News did report that the FBI withheld documents, informants, and tapes from Alabama's investigation into the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing for over 30 years.
So word is slowly getting out that the FBI has a very (shall we say) "strange" habit of consistently withholding evidence in cases of domestic terrorism.
The FBI is like every other federalized bureau: Fat, lazy, incompetant, and thoroughly corrupt.
"So who was he working for?"
The whole point of my web site and my long years of posting is for people to quit waiting for someone else to tell them what to think and to start thinking for themselves.
You already KNOW the answer.
Who has the ability to pursuade the mainstream media like CNN to stop reporting on the additional bombs? Who has the ability to pursuade the mainstream media to ignore the above documents? Who has the ability to have Connie Chung fired just two days after trying to confirm reports that fire trucks were already parked on nearby streets when the bomb went off. Who has the ability to arrange for all the FD-302 forms regarding perpetrators other than McVeigh to somehow not get delivered to the defense team?
Who?
That's who McVeigh worked for.
bump for Michael
GRANDSTANDING over here?
I don't think I saw a link to your Lone Gunman website either Michael ...
another bump for an important story.
Bump
Good Work! Great Post! So Much Not Reported!
Just watched NBC nightly news on this story...it was all about the victims and how terrible it is that all this will likely be dragged out in the courts for years to come...not one word on the content or significance of the documents.
Some things never change.
great work MR - bttt
FBI = Fumblers Bureaucrats and Incompetents
Thank you for your links. I find it interesting that all the discussion today on CNN is about "John Doe #2" and that these documents point to information about "others" who may have been involved. Is it possible that this supposed "new information" is an indication that somebody wants this information to be newsworthy enough to dispel the "lone terrorist and sidekick" story and dig into a broader conspiracy and cover-up??
GO MIKE GO!!!!!
More goodies here.
Click here for the "other" Ryder truck.
"I don't think I saw a link to your Lone Gunman website either Michael ..."
Yep, the shills are on overtime.
(Thanks for the bump).
Mike, have you heard of Freenet. Its a conspiracy theorists dream come true. I recommend it to you. It will probably take a little work to get it working for you. But once you get it working it isn't much harder than HTML to use.
http://freenet.sourceforge.net/
That's who McVeigh worked for.According to Michael anyway ...Here are a couple of websites with slightly more authority then Michael's Lone Gunman style website:
McVeigh's defense team pleading - from which it appears that Michael has derived much of his conspiracy theories about the OKC bombing:
http://www.newnetizen.com/archives/okc1.htm
Grand Jury report on the OKC Bombing.
http://www.kwtv.com/news/bombing/grand-jury.htm
And an excerpt from the OKC GJ report where the OKC Grand Jury expresses their opinion on the 'bunk' that was beginning even then to propagate about the OKC bombing:
During the course of this Grand Jury's investigation, we have observed a tremendous amount of journalistic overlap in a number of magazines, books, talk radio shows and internet websites. The same misprinted information is repeated over and over again without any validating its veracity. Sadly, these organizations and individuals have glorified those convicted in federal court by vilifying the federal government and increasing the public's distrust of its government by providing half-truths, uncorroborated, and oftentimes out-right false information.
It seems funny to me that all this evidence exists that "someone" is behind this (not McVeigh) and none of the media is reporting the Story of the Millenium. Not even papers like The Naiton or the Village Voice has jumped on this, or foreign media. Why hasn't the AFP reported this? Are they controlled by the Feds as well? Maybe the Chinese, Cuban and Iraqi media are controlled from DC as well...
My point is, it would seem that at least ONE media organization on earth would have jumped on this. There may be powerful people behind the scenes that have some influence on what makes it into the press, but I can't ever be convinced that they have all power over all media over all the earth.
Betcha didn't know this one.....
T H E N E W Y O R K T I M E S * * * * * Thursday October 28, 1993 Page A1 "Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast" By Ralph Blumenthal Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center, and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after the blast. The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer, Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said. [end excerpt]
BUMP. Do you think the reason the electronic media have been so silent and even antagonistic toward any other explanation is because they've been told to cooperate or lose their licences to broadcast?
Are you kidding? Under Klinton's watch, I'm surprised they didn't indict the Republican Party for the crime. Of course they did try to indict talk radio and conservatives for it. The Clinton FBI/DOJ possibly hiding documents and evidence? Wow, what a revelation.........NOT.
"It seems funny to me that all this evidence exists that "someone" is behind this (not McVeigh) and none of the media is reporting the Story of the Millenium. "
Who has the power to keep that from happening? That's who McVeigh worked for. Who has the tax dollars to hire hundreds of shills to prowl the internet trying to keep the lid on?
The shills are easy to spot. On the day when the government is outed for concealing evidence the shills are the ones who think that continuing to post more government propaganda will somehow make it all better.
I can just see _Jim's handlers in a back room somewhere. "Well gee, we were caught lying to the people. What should we do?" "I dunno, how about we lie some more?" "Gee, I guess that would be cool."
Intelligence Agency is an oxymoron.
From:
THE JOHN DOE TIMES,
Vol. V, Number 3,
22 March 1997It appears the the *source* for all this conspiracy talk is the result of a dis-information campaign conducted by TMcV's defense attorney - and John Doe #2 was a case of mistaken identity ...
Less than two weeks after the blast, investigators had found a man who exactly fit Kessinger's description of John Doe 2.The man, an innocent soldier named Todd Bunting, had been in Elliott's Body Shop the day after McVeigh rented the Ryder truck.
But Kessinger stubbornly insisted that he had seen the two men together on the same day.
Only last November ['96] did Kessinger finally change his mind and identify Bunting as John Doe 2.
Jones, McVeigh's lawyer, relished bringing out Kessinger's contradictions at a hearing last month. Despite the judge's order not to talk about evidence or strategy to reporters, Jones kept feeding speculation to the press.
There was the suggestion that two Ryder trucks were involved in the blast and that the Feds had been warned before the bombing.
Government sources say Jones's theories are farfetched. But by hiring conspiracy-minded detectives (at taxpayer expense: Jones has so far billed the government for about $10 million), he hopes to baffle prospective jurors.
The FBI also has to worry about reports that its lab has become slipshod. Fortunately for the government, the FBI lab "whistle-blower," Frederic Whitehurst, was once Burmeister's mentor.
In fact, Whitehurst is on record saying that some of Burmeister's OKBomb work was "brilliant."
If Jones is going to play the role of Johnnie Cochran, he must find a sympathetic jury. The pool around Denver may have some anti-government views. It takes only a single juror to hang a verdict. But it would have to be a very stubborn juror indeed to hold out in the face of the evidence against Timothy McVeigh.
"BUMP. Do you think the reason the electronic media have been so silent and even antagonistic toward any other explanation is because they've been told to cooperate or lose their licences to broadcast?"
They can lose licenses, they can lose access, which is worse, or they can be fired, as was Connie Chung for trying to confirm the story that fire trucks were parked on nearby streets when the bomb exploded.
Or they can be killed, like that police officer who wanted to go public.
But keep in mind that since the end of WW2, the CIA has positioned its people into the top management positions of all the media in Operation MOCKINGBIRD.
Where do you get this stuff from?Selective viewing of only that evidence that leans toward or opens the way for the weaving of a good conspiracy theory.
Notwithstanding the veritable mountain of evidence, the sworn testimony of non-governmental witnesses -
- for none of this is of any use to Michael. It only get in the way ...
Thanks! BUMP
It was because of you I took an initiave to get involved with the USS Iowa tragedy. I can no longer post with the families ( too painful for me)because their bias is so huge however my eyes are now wide opened to what can and will go on if no one speaks up loud enough. It appears to me now that only 3 of the dead sailors families are in for the long haul and I find that so tragic. Did all the other families simply give up? Is it ok to live without the truth. I surely can't and it will probably now be a mission of mine to get the truth because frankly I can not live without it now, my friend's life was worth more than that. I am of firm belief that he would want his family to know the complete truth.
We are making progress, linking all the way back to Lebanon and the USS New Jersy.
I hear that the same thing happened on the TWA grief boards in that the families grief is too much to argue with on simple facts. Even though I lost a friend I was not accepted because I came to the "game" late. However when I speak with non-family members who are concerned and want the truth no matter what it is I am accepted. Its strange and sad.
_Jim. You know that it is impossible to prove a negative.
If there was nothing to the John Doe No. 2, then why did the FBI feel it was necessary to conceal the statements of the witnesses who saw him/them.
Joghn Doe Number 2.
And his incredible look alike.
"Selective viewing of only that evidence that leans toward or opens the way for the weaving of a good conspiracy theory. "
That's a very good statement to make on the very day we are learning that none of us, INCLUDING YOU, had access to all the evidence.
I'll repeat that. You DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AT OKLAHOMA CITY. You weren't even there. You have far less factual information to bring to the discussion that the people cited in the above documents.
Yet somehow, even though the government has just been exposed for concealing material evidence in this case, including witness statements regarding additional perpetrators, yo0u just sort of psycicly know that all the people who saw additional bombs and additional bombers are wrong, and even though the government has admitted concealing eyewitness reports of a John Doe No.2, you alone know that there was no second bomber. You are right and all thse other people are wrong, and even though the government has admitted withholding evidence of an additional bomber, you already know that the new evidence doesn't really mention an additional bomber; it's just old parking tickets and such.
Tell me, oh psychic wonder, does Elvis talk to you?
Part I, the OKC GJ report on the OKC bombing:We, the Grand Jury, duly empanelled on the 30th day of June, 1997, and charged with the responsibility of investigating all public offenses against the State committed or triable within Oklahoma county as contained in the petition for calling of the Grand Jury duly filed in the Office of the Court Clerk of Oklahoma County on June 2, 1997, and having in a fair and impartial manner, to the best of our abilities and understanding and with due regard to the Court's instructions, and having heard 117 witnesses and received 1,909 exhibits and having fully considered any and all complaints alleged to exist in Oklahoma County, and having been in session for 133 working days, and having heretofore after due deliberation voted according to law, the Grand Jury to this Honorable Court its Final Report as follows:IV INDICTMENTS
We have returned one indictment. We leave other charging decisions in this matter in the capable hands of the appropriate prosecutorial authorities. However, we urge the Oklahoma County District Attorney to follow through with his publicly announced intention to pursue State murder charges resulting from the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
V EXPRESSIONS OF APPRECIATION
The Grand Jury wishes to express its appreciation to our Judge, the Honorable William Burkett, who always put the Grand Jury's needs first. His willingness to stop proceedings in his court to hear our Interim Report and to convene court in the Oklahoma County Detention Facility to keep the jurors from having to travel to the Oklahoma County Courthouse are two examples of his professional courtesy to us.
Our Bailiffs, Wanda Bernard and Sonny Briggs, were ever cheerful and patient with the juror's irregular meeting days and times.
We also thank our Court Reporters Kim Fowler and Mark Trebbe, who were readily available when needed.
We wish to express our special appreciation to our legal advisors, Assistant District Attorney Ms. Suzanne Lister-Gump and First assistant District Attorney Mr. Patrick Morgan for their excellent, unbiased advice. They were prepared and thorough in their examination of witnesses. All applicable legal statutes were promptly provided pursuant to the Grand Jury's requests for further information by Mr. Morgan, and read by him for clarification. The legal advisors did not at any time offer their opinions regarding the evidence or witnesses.
Oklahoma County District Attorney's Office Investigator Larry Dellinger was assigned to this Grand Jury. He spent countless hours interviewing witnesses, collecting evidence, delivering subpoenas and testifying before this Grand Jury. His efforts were invaluable to this body in its endeavor to address the issues cited in the citizens' petition.
Sheriff John Whetsel and the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Department provided the Grand Jury with transportation, security, parking, and a quiet and secure meeting place. We are deeply appreciative to the Department for enduring the inconvenience of the jury's presence.
We thank our employers and co-workers for their support, understanding and patience during our prolonged service as grand jurors.
Lastly, but most importantly we wish to thank our families. Their patience and support allowed us to focus clearly on our task. Over the past eighteen months many of our families suffered financially and emotionally as a result of our service. We would like to express our heartfelt thanks to them for standing by us throughout this lengthy process.
VI EXPLOSION INVESTIGATION
Although we recognize that Section 346 of Title 22 of the Oklahoma Statutes as interpreted in a recent Oklahoma Supreme Court decision severely restricts our ability to report fully the results of our inquiry, we offer the following information, opinions and recommendations based on the evidence and testimony before us regarding the matters asked for by the petition to convene us:
At 9:02 a.m. on April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City experienced the worst act of domestic terrorism ever recorded in United States history, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Within minutes local police, fire and ambulance units arrived on the scene. By 9:30 a.m. the site was cordoned off as a crime scene. Rescue efforts began immediately by citizens and professionals alike.
The FBI assumed control of the crime scene and the investigation because the target of this tragedy was a Federal facility. At approximately 11:30 a.m. the rear axle housing of what later was identified as a Ryder truck, was found on N.W. 5th Street, in front of the Regency Tower Apartments, where it had struck a vehicle and fallen onto the street. The Regency Tower is located one block west of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. A partial vehicle identification number was retrieved from the axle and used to trace the vehicle. It was traced to the Ryder Truck Rental Company in Miami, Florida. Also found was the license tag off the Ryder truck and the ignition key.
The Ryder Truck Rental Company in Florida issued that specific truck to Elliott's Body Shop in Junction City, Kansas. Through the ensuing interview with Eldon Elliott, owner of Elliott's Body Shop, and employees Tom Kessinger and Vicki Beemer, the FBA learned a 20 foot Ryder truck had been rented at that facility on April 17, 1995 by Robert D. Kling. With the assistance of Tom Kessinger, who had the best recollection of Mr. Kling of the three body shop employees, a composite drawing was prepared by FBI artists.
A canvas by FBI agents of the area around Junction City, including businesses and motels, was immediately conducted. At the Dreamland Motel, owner Leah McGowan remembered a man in a Ryder truck who had been a recent guest there. She provided a description of the individual to the FBI. When asked if she remembered the man's name, Mrs. McGowan identified him as Timothy McVeigh. Mrs. McGowan was then shown the composite drawing of John Doe I and was asked if Timothy McVeigh resembled the drawing. The response was affirmative.
On April 21, 1995, the FBI conducted an NCIC (National Crime Information Computer) inquiry on Timothy McVeigh and found he had been arrested on April 19, 1995 at 10:20 a.m. in Perry, Oklahoma. He was being held in the Noble County Jail.
On the morning of April 19, 1995, Trooper Charlie Hanger, Oklahoma Highway Patrol, was traveling north on I-35 between mile markers 202 and 203 in Noble County. Trooper Hanger initiated a traffic stop of a 1977 Mercury Marquis for failure to display a proper license plate. During this routine stop, it became apparent to Trooper Hanger that the driver of the Mercury was carrying a concealed weapon. The driver, Timothy McVeigh, was removed from his vehicle and placed in Trooper Hanger's car. He was subsequently arrested for failure to display a current license plate, failure to maintain proof of insurance, unlawfully carrying a weapon, and transporting a loaded firearm. He was taken to the Noble County Jail. The 1977 Mercury was left on the side of I-35 at Timothy McVeigh's request. Timothy McVeigh declined the offer of towing the car to Perry.
Upon learning of Timothy McVeigh's whereabouts, the FBI initiated further investigation of his clothing and car. The FBI reported that particles of ammonium nitrate were found on Timothy McVeigh's shirt. Residue from Primadet cord, PETN, was found in both front pockets of his jeans. Earplugs found on Timothy McVeigh tested positive for nitroglycerine and EDN (indicative of dynamite).
When he was booked into the Noble County Jail, Timothy McVeigh was wearing a white T-shirt with a picture of Abraham Lincoln and the message SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS on the front. On the back was the message, "The Tree of Liberty must be Refreshed from Time to Time with the Blood of Patriots and Tyrants." T. Jefferson. The words "refreshed", "with the blood of" and "tyrants" were printed in red with the rest of the words printed in black. The background is a tree, and several red droplets representative of blood are positioned throughout the message.
The contents of the car revealed a hand printed sign "NOT ABANDONED". "Please do not tow, will move by April 23. (Need battery and cable)". The handwriting is Timothy McVeigh's.
Also found in the car was a white envelope containing several folded papers. One of which again in Timothy McVeigh's handwriting, was the note, "Obey the Constitution of the United States and we won't shoot you". Several clippings from "The American Response to Tyranny", including the headline "When the Government Fears the People THERE IS LIBERTY. When the people fear the Government THERE IS TYRANNY.", S. Adams. And in Timothy McVeigh's handwriting below it is written, "Maybe now, there will be Liberty!" A copy of "The Turner Diaries" by Andrew Macdonald was also in the car. Numerous entries were highlighted including one statement which read, "But the real value of all our attacks today lies in the psychological impact, not in the immediate causalities."
The FBI's investigation uncovered a telephone calling card issued by "The Spotlight" magazine in the name of Darryl Bridges. The original application was stamped with the date November 12, 1993. The handwriting on the application was Timothy McVeigh's. The calling card was found in the residence of Terry Nichols' brother, James Nichols, in Decker, Michigan.
The telephone calling card records were used by the FBI to build the case against both Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. A sample of calls made on the card are: Terry Nichols' home; Terry Nichols' ex-wife, Lana Padilla; storage unit companies in Las Vegas, Nevada; Kingman, Arizona; Council Grove, Kansas; and Herington, Kansas; James Nichols' home in Decker, Michigan; various barrel companies; demolition companies; chemical companies; Mid-Kansas Coop (where Terry Nichols bought the ammonium nitrate in the name of Mike Havens); various racing fuel companies; V.P. Racing Fuel/Timothy Chambers, Ennis, Texas (where we believe Timothy McVeigh purchased three 55 gallon drums of nitromethane); Elliott's Body Shop, Junction City, Kansas; Bill McVeigh, Timothy McVeigh's father in New York; Michael Fortier, Kingman, Arizona; The "Spotlight" (to check phone card balance), Edward McVeigh, Timothy McVeigh's grandfather in New York; Hunam Palace Chinese Restaurant, Junction City, Kansas; Dreamland Motel, Junction City, Kansas; telephone calls to Terry Nichols' home in Herington, Kansas from the Dreamland Motel in Junction City, Kansas.
With each call retrieved from the records, the FBI was able to corroborate the presence of either Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols in the immediate vicinity through the use of motel registration cards, receipts for purchases made, and video tapes from security cameras. The Daryl Bridges calling card has not been used since April 17, 1995.
Both Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols purchased money orders to pay on the debit phone card in the name of Daryl Bridges. Both men used the calling card. No persons outside of the Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols families have been connected to the use of the Daryl Bridges card.
In September, 1995, Marife Nichols left Kansas for the Philippines not to return until April, 1995. On September 14, 1994, the security camera at the Equity Standard Numismatics of Kansas Coin Shop in Wichita captured on video tape Timothy McVeigh talking with a clerk. On that same date a check from the shop was issued to Marife Nichols in the amount of $2,330.00.
On September 30, 1994, Terry Nichols quit his job at the Donahue Farm in Marion, Kansas. That same day, we believe Terry Nichols, using the name Mike Havens, made his first purchase of ammonium nitrate at the Mid-Kansas Coop in McPherson, Kansas, some 40 miles from Marion. During searches of Terry Nichols' home, FBI agents seized a pink customer copy of a receipt from Mid-Kansas Coop dated September 30, 1994, issued to Mike Havens for the purchase of forty 50 pound bags of ammonium nitrate in the amount of $228.74.
On October 3, 1994, the Martin Marietta Rock Quarry near Marion, Kansas, was burglarized. A Makita drill and drill bits found in Terry Nichols' home were matched to the markings on the locks on the trailer and magazines at the Quarry. Taken from the Quarry were 229 sticks of tovex sausage explosive, 93 rolls of Primadet, non-electric blasting caps, and 544 electric blasting caps. No ammonium nitrate was taken. Five rolls of Primadet, non-electric blasting caps were found in Terry Nichols' home, and three more were found in Michael Fortier's home.
On October 17, 1994, Terry Nichols rented storage unit #40, in Council Grove, Kansas, in the name of Joe Kyle. On October 18, 1994, we believe Terry Nichols made his second purchase of ammonium nitrate at the Mid-Kansas Coop in McPherson, Kansas. At 9:00 a.m. on November 5, 1994, Roger Moore of Royal, Arkansas, was robbed. In testimony given by Michael Fortier in the Federal trial of Timothy McVeigh, Fortier told prosecutors Timothy McVeigh said Terry Nichols robbed Roger Moore himself.
Based on records of the 6th and 7th of November, 1994, there were a series of attempted telephone calls from Terry Nichols in Manhattan, Kansas, to Timothy McVeigh in Lockport and Pendleton, New York. It appears that contact was finally established on November 7, 1994 at 7:22 p.m. in a call showing a duration time of six minutes nine seconds.
On November 7, 1994, we believe Terry Nichols rented a second storage unit, #37, in Council Grove, Kansas, using the name Ted Parker. It was in this unit the FBI later found some of the guns stolen from Roger Moore. Terry Nichols' fingerprints were also found at this site.
On November 22, 1994, Terry Nichols left for the Philippines. Lana Padilla, Terry Nichols' ex-wife, having received written instructions from Terry Nichols to send a sealed letter to Timothy McVeigh in case he (Terry Nichols) didn't return, instead opened the letter herself. In it, Terry Nichols instructed Timothy McVeigh to, "clear everything out of CG37 by 1 Feb. 95 or pay to keep it longer under Ted Parker of Decker." The reference to CG37 most probably being storage unit #37 in Council Grove. Just before signing the letter, Terry Nichols wrote, sic, "Your on your own. Go for it!!!" Below his signature he wrote "liquidate 40", and "As far as heat - none that I know, this letter would be for the purpose of my death." Lana Padilla also found $20,000 in cash behind a kitchen drawer in her home in Las Vegas.
In the Las Vegas storage unit, Lana Padilla found a ski mask, ladies stockings, and jade (perhaps from the Moore robbery). Terry Nichols returned from the Philippines on January 16, 1995. Motel registration cards show he was registered at the Sunset Motel in Kingman, Arizona, from February 12 through February 16, 1995. At the same time, Timothy McVeigh was registered at the Hilltop Motel in Kingman. Records from the Daryl Bridges phone card show five calls were attempted from the Hilltop Motel to the Sunset Motel on February 12, 1995. On February 13, 1995, there were two more calls with a connection.
Terry Nichols told the FBI he had not had any contact with Timothy McVeigh for one to two months prior to Easter Sunday, April 16, 1995. However, a Wal-Mart receipt dated April 13, 1995, was found in Terry Nichols' wallet. The receipt was for 4 quarts of oil and an oil filter. The filter fit Timothy McVeigh's Pontiac, J-2000, but not Terry Nichols' pick-up, a 1984 GMC. On April 15, 1995, Terry Nichols used the April 13, 1995 receipt in the Manhattan, Kansas, Wal-Mart to return the oil filter. Timothy McVeigh had left his Pontiac at the Firestone Store in Junction City, Kansas, on April 14, 1995, when he purchased the 1977 Mercury. Both Terry Nichols' and Timothy McVeigh's fingerprints were found on the April 13, 1995, Wal-Mart receipt.
A telephone call was made to Terry Nichols' home on April 15, 1995, from room 25 at the Dreamland Motel in Junction City, Kansas, where Timothy McVeigh was registered in his own name. At 3:08 p.m. on April 16, 1995, Terry Nichols received a call at his home from Timothy McVeigh. Terry Nichols told his wife and son, Josh, that Timothy McVeigh was in Omaha, Nebraska, and that he had car trouble, and wanted Terry Nichols to pick him up. The Daryl Bridges phone card records show that call was made from Timothy's Amoco, a few blocks from Terry Nichols' home in Herington, Kansas. At 8:17 p.m. on April 16, 1995, the security cameras at the Regency Tower Apartments in Oklahoma City video taped what was believed to have been Terry Nichols' pick-up passing west to east in front of the building. Again it was taped at 8:24 p.m. In his initial interview with the FBI, Terry Nichols admitted driving down N.W. 5th Street in front of the Regency Tower apartments. The Regency Tower apartments are located at 333 N.W. 5th, one block west of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. On April 17, 1995, a security camera in the McDonalds in Junction City, Kansas, video taped Timothy McVeigh at 3:57 p.m. inside the restaurant. That McDonalds is one mile from Elliott's Body Shop where we believe he picked up the Ryder truck at 4:20 p.m. on April 17, 1995. The video tape from the McDonalds does not show anyone with Timothy McVeigh. He appears to be alone.
Terry Nichols said that on April 18, 1995, at 6:00 a.m. Timothy McVeigh called him to ask to borrow his pick-up truck. They met at McDonalds at 7:30 a.m. in Junction City. Terry Nichols said he had Timothy McVeigh drop him off at a military surplus sale at Ft. Riley, Kansas. He signed in at the sale at 12:50 p.m. A bid by Terry Nichols was recorded at 1:37 p.m. No witnesses can place Terry Nichols at the sale between 8:00 a.m. and 12:50 p.m.
Army Sergeant Rick Wahl saw a large Ryder truck at Geary Lake near Junction City, Kansas, at 9:00 a.m. on April 18, 1995, with another vehicle, a dark pick-up. Bob Nelson, who worked at Elliott's Body Shop in Junction City, drove by Geary Lake on April 18, 1995, at 7:45 a.m., and also saw a Ryder truck with a pick-up parked next to it. These were the only two witnesses to report observing a Ryder truck at Geary Lake before the FBI canvassed the area with a road block on Highway 77 on May 2, 1995.
Double tire tracks found in front of the storage unit in Herington were consistent with a 20 foot Ryder truck - the same size used in the bombing. Inside the storage unit, three circular rust stains found on the floor were consistent with the 55 gallon barrels of nitromethane we believe were purchased by Timothy McVeigh in Ennis, Texas, on October 21, 1994.
On April 20, 1995, Terry Nichols cleaned out the storage unit in Herington, Kansas.
A Daryl Bridges calling card coupon booklet with the address 3616 N. VanDyke Road, Decker, Michigan, produced both Terry Nichols' and Timothy McVeigh's fingerprints. Payment coupons were also found to coincide with money orders purchased by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols.
Evidence recovered during the searches of Terry Nichols' residence in Herington, Kansas, reportedly included the following: Primadet, non-electric blasting caps, Makita drill in a blue box with drill bits, exerpts from "The Hunter" by Andrew Macdonald, pellets of ammonium nitrate on the front porch, twenty guns belonging to Roger Moore, safe deposit keys which fit safe deposit boxes belonging to Carol and Roger Moore, and a quilt believed taken from Roger Moore's home.
Michael Fortier testified to the following at Timothy McVeigh's trial:
1. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols broke into a magazine and a trailer at a rock quarry near Marion, Kansas, (Martin-Marietta, October 3, 1994) and stole explosives tovex, Primadet and blasting caps). 2. Terry Nichols robbed "Bob" (Roger Moore) for guns (November 5, 1994). Terry Nichols hid and waited for "Bob" to come out and get his paper. Terry Nichols approached "Bob" from behind with a shotgun and ordered "Bob" back into his house. During the robbery, Terry Nichols became tired and untied "Bob" and had "Bob" help him load weapons and other items into "Bob's" van. "Bob" was retied by Terry Nichols. 3. Lori Fortier was asked to wrap blasting caps in Christmas wrapping paper by Timothy McVeigh before he transported the blasting caps to Kansas (December 1994). 4. December 15, 1994, Michael Fortier and Timothy McVeigh left Kingman, Arizona, to go to Kansas. During the trip, Timothy McVeigh told Michael about the type of truck he wanted to use, he said, "like a Ryder truck with a door on the side." 5. December 16, 1994, Michael Fortier and Timothy McVeigh stopped in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Timothy McVeigh showed him the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, first going by the back of the building with the courtyard (i.e. south). They then drove around to the side where a truck could park in front of the building (i.e. north). Timothy McVeigh told him about two ways to leave Oklahoma City after the bombing. One, he would have Terry Nichols follow him down the day of the bombing and pick him up. Two, Timothy McVeigh would drop off a vehicle a couple of days before the bombing. Then drive the truck himself, leave it in front of the building, run to his car, get in and drive away. Timothy McVeigh wanted a building between him and the bomb when it exploded. 6. They stopped at a little lake (Geary Lake) on the way to Junction City, Kansas. 7. Timothy McVeigh wanted to do the bombing on the anniversary of Waco because he thought orders (raid) came from the ATF in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 8. Timothy McVeigh wanted Michael Fortier to "max-out" his credit cards and give him the money. Fortier refused. Michael Fortier said he could get false ID papers and then Timothy could get credit cards on the false ID. This Fortier did. He gave forms for blank certificate of birth, blank driver's license and blank social security card to Timothy McVeigh in February, 1995. 9. In March of 1995, Timothy McVeigh told Fortier that Terry Nichols did not want to help him any more. He asked Michael Fortier if he would come to Kansas and help him mix the bomb. Fortier refused.
We shall now try to address some of the various allegations presented to us by some of the petitioners.
A. JOHN DOE II
Numerous sitings. Approximately 26 witnesses testified to the Grand Jury they saw John Doe II or saw Timothy McVeigh with John Doe II. Often the testimony of these witnesses conflicted with each other and these sitings were reported after composites were shown on television or after Timothy McVeigh was led from the Noble County Jail on April 21, 1995.
Based on the descriptions of these witnesses John Doe II would have to be as follows: Height 5'3" to 6'3"; Weight 140 pounds to 210 pounds; Build: slim and skinny to stocky and muscular; Race: white, Hispanic, Middle Eastern or Asian; Skin color: white, olive or dark; Hair color: dark blond, red, brown or black; Hair length: crew cut, 2 inches long or shoulder length; Facial hair: mustache or none.
We believe that the most likely identify of John Doe II was that of Todd Bunting who with Michael Hertig was in Elliott's Body Shop on April 18, 1995. The similarity of Mr. Hertig to the composite of John Doe I and the similarity of Todd Bunting to the composite of John Doe II are remarkable, particularly when you take into account Mr. Bunting's tattoo of a Playboy bunny on his upper left arm and the fact he was wearing a black T-shirt and a Carolina Panthers ball cap when he was at Elliott's Body Shop.
I've followed this case close enough to know that you're actions on this thread rather than make Rivero look bad, make you out to be a chump. Why don't you trot off to the toddler's corner and leave this topic to the grownups.
The history the government hopes you DON'T learn!
Mike's Site
I've followed this case close enough to know that you're actions on this thread rather than make Rivero look bad, make you out to be a chump. Why don't you trot off to the toddler's corner and leave this topic to the grownups.
If all this news comes out and gobment is found guilty I hope _Jim does some time also.
This is for being an accomplice to the coverup.
Now that a certain poster has made it obvious that the government pays people to try to argue the government's case on line, no mattrer hos silly it makes them look, you should maybe study up on COINTELPRO, which shows that the FBI has been engaging in lies, deceptions, and domestic criminal operations against law abiding citizens, since the 60s (if not before).
Typical of how the FBI does its business was the smearing of actress Jean Seberg.
Jean Seberg was a well knoan actress supportive of civil rights. She was pregnant by her husband, a French Diplomat, when the FBI decided to destroy her career and her credibility by putting out a false story that she was actually pregnant by one of the Black Panthers. At the above link you will find scans of the actual letter sent by the Los Angeles FBI to Washington DC requesting permission for the lie, which was granted. The smear was published in the Los Angeles Times, and picked up around the world.
Seberg's career was wrecked. The shock triggered a miscarriage, and Seberg later committed suicide. Because of her husband's diplomatic station, the FBI was forced to admit to the smear and publicly apologize, something they normally never do.
This is the real FBI!
OKC GJ Report, Part IISome of the other claims regarding John Doe II were:
1. The so-called Middle Eastern connection which, based on the evidence available, we believe simply did not exist. 2. The FBI expended over a million man-hours and spent millions of dollars tracking John Doe II and Middle Eastern connection leads and interviewing the people who called in the reports. All came to nothing. The most promising lead, involving a man named Robert Jacks, or Jacques, also dwindled away as the FBI pursued it. 3. After the bombing an APB was issued for a brown pick-up truck which was reported speeding away from the vicinity of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Shortly before 9:00 a.m. on April 19, 1995, an employee of the Journal Record Building received a call that one of her children had become ill at school. She got in her brown pick-up, matching the description given on the APB, and left the Journal Record parking lot at a high rate of speed. 4. It would seem that everybody who saw a Ryder truck on April 19, 1995, saw Timothy McVeigh in it. Some of the sightings had the effect of canceling each other out as Timothy McVeigh could not have possibly, or physically, been at such widespread locations, at the same a time.
However, in spite of all the evidence before us we cannot finally put closure to the question of the existence of a John Doe II. We are encouraged that the FBI continues to have an agent assigned full-time to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing and are confident that if any new evidence comes to light, they and other law enforcement agencies will pursue those leads.
B. CONSPIRACY/PRIOR KNOWLEDGE
1. Part of this Grand Jury's responsibility was to investigate allegations that federal government agencies had received prior warning the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was to occur. More specifically, an allegation surfaced that agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) assigned to the Oklahoma City Office were contacted on their pagers on the morning of April 19, 1995, prior to 9:02 a.m. and were advised not to come into the office.
Four employees of the ATF who were in the building prior to 9:00 a.m. on April 19, 1995, appeared before us and testified. Additionally, we have received photographic evidence and the testimony of other witnesses. We are convinced that ATF employees Luke Franey, Valerie Rowden, Vernon Buster, James Staggs and Alex McCauley were in the building when it was destroyed. There was no credible evidence present4ed to us that leads us to believe the ATF had prior warning of the bombing.
2. In January, 1998, for the first time, another allegation relating to prior knowledge surfaced. This allegation focused on a claimed comment by a local United States Congressman the night of the bombing. We heard the testimony of the people who claimed to have heard the comment, the Congressman, and the people who was supposedly with the Congressman that night. We have concluded that whatever words were said (and there was a dispute about this between those who claimed to have heard and those who supposedly said something) they were not evidence of prior knowledge by the Congressman.
C. ELOHIM CITY
After the bombing of the Murrah Building allegations surfaced that an individual identified as an informant for the ATF had provided information to the ATF prior to April 19, 1995, that the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was going to be bombed.
The allegations were basically that several "white supremacists" with connections to Elohim City, a small white separatist community located in Sequoyah County, Oklahoma, may have been involved in the bombing. We have made every effort to try to identify any plausible connection between these individuals and the bombing. In spite of a possible telephone call from Timothy McVeigh to Elohim City in April, 1995, we have been unable to find such a connection. It is our understanding that the FBI has also been unable to find such a link.
D. STING
There were rumors of a government "sting operation" that went wrong. Knowledgeable witnesses testified under oath and with full knowledge of the law pertaining to perjury, that this was simply not so. We agree. Our view is that everything else in this regard is either fabrication or uninformed speculation.
E. TELEPHONE CALLS
We investigated several telephone calls that have been called suspicious by some people. These calls and our findings regarding them follow.
1. Fire Chief Charles Gaines received a telephone call allegedly from "Gilmore with OSBI" on April 14, 1995, with a warning to be aware of something that may happen on April 15, 1995. The caller was not specific. It was not unusual to receive such calls. Chief Gaines passed the call on to Dispatch with instructions to notify the chiefs and safety officers. As an Oklahoma City Fire Department District Chief, Harvey Weathers was quoted regarding this call in USA Today.
Additionally, Jon Hansen, Assistant Fire Chief, was paged and made aware of the telephone call taken by Gaines and understood that they needed to be aware of a possible Seron Gas incident similar to Japan. He made an attempt after the bombing to find out who "Gilmore" was, but was unsuccessful.
2. Opal's Answering Service took calls from the U.S. Secret Service in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, one of their 600 clients. Opal's Answering Service has been answering their calls since 1974, and on Saturday April 15, 1995 at 7:45 a.m., they took a call in regard to a possible terrorist attempt. The operator asked if this was an emergency and the answer was no. The caller said "it's a hunch, I've been up all night thinking about it". On Monday, April 17, 1995, at 8:38 a.m. the call was relayed to the Secret Service. We received into evidence a typed record of the call and determined the call was not specific and this call was not unusual. The Opal's employee who took the call remembered it right after the bombing and reported it to her supervisor who in turn called the Secret Service. 3. Among the many rumors brought before the Grand Jury, was a report of a telephone call allegedly made to the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C., stating the caller was across the street from the Murrah Building which had just been blown up. This call was supposedly made thirty-eight minutes prior to the actual bombing.
The Justice Department employee who took the call, later worked out the timing of the telephone call he had received from Oklahoma City. He was able to determine the time based on a package delivery. The actual time was determined to be after the bombing.
4. Another strange call was reportedly made to the Respiratory Research Unit of Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, Washington, D.C. The call was made on Monday, April 17, 1995, by a person who identified himself as being a Pentagon Congressional Liaison Officer representing the Governor of Oklahoma. The caller was inquiring about how to treat victims of a blast and what type of medical team and equipment would be required to treat such victims. None of the persons involved could recall the caller giving his name. None of them could recall any specific reference to a bombing in Oklahoma City. We were unable to find the source of this call. 5. We also learned of a telephone call made from a pay telephone at a Taco Bell on April 12, 1995, at 4:00 p.m. to 911. The call was taken by an Oklahoma City Police Department dispatcher, and she recalls it was a bomb related call and was categorized as a signal 8, meaning a mentally ill person. We received an audio tape of the telephone call. Police officers responded to the Taco Bell and talked to the individual who made the call. His address was a home that cares for the mentally disabled. The dispatcher with 20 years experience, felt the caller knew about a bombing that was to occur, but had no specifics and never mentioned a Federal Building. We listened to a tape of the call and there was nothing specific mentioned. 6. The FBI emergency headquarters in Oklahoma City had 25 operational communication lines provided by Southwestern Bell. One of which was previously assigned to a R.D. Hardin. This communication line was added to the Command Post billing on April 19, 1995. This would explain a telephone call made from Hardin's previous number on the 27th of April to the Fortier's in Kingman, Arizona. This call was verified by Agent Jon Hersley and by Southwestern Bell's billing records.
F. EXPLOSIVES REPORTED TO BE FOUND IN THE BUILDING
We investigated claims that explosives were found in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Our investigation determined as follows:
1. A desk ornament that looked like a bundle of dynamite with a clock attached to it. The desk ornament belonged to an ATF agent, and was not an explosive device. 2. Several federal law enforcement agencies were housed in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Small arms and small arms ammunition were not an uncommon discovery throughout the search and rescue phase. 3. An inert T.O.W. missile was found and mistaken for a secondary explosive device. The inert T.O.W. missile belonged to the U.S. Customs Department. 4. Based on our review of video tapes and photographs, packages of small arms ammunition were mistaken for packs of C4 explosive by one Oklahoma City Police Department officer.
G. SOME HAVE CLAIMED THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT AND RESCUE WORKERS ARRIVED TO SOON AFTER THE BOMBING
Our investigation revealed:
1. Many who heard the blast and could see the smoke knew something was wrong. 2. The following departments dispatched themselves and did not wait for a call:
Fire Station No. 1 at 820 N.W. 5th. Fire Station No. 4 at 100 S.W. 4th. Fire Station No. 5 at N.W. 22nd and Broadway. Fire Station No. 6 at 620 N.E. 8th.
3. A Prayer Breakfast for law enforcement being held at the Myriad in downtown Oklahoma City was adjourning at the time of the explosion. 4. Oklahoma Highway Patrol Bomb Squad was conducting a previously scheduled training session at 36th and Martin Luther King Boulevard in Oklahoma City. 5. Oklahoma City Police Department is located at 701 Colcord, about four blocks away from the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. 6. Oklahoma County Sheriff's Department is located at 201 N. Shartel, less than five blocks away from the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. 7. Oklahoma City Police Department had officers on patrol in downtown Oklahoma City. 8. Oklahoma County Sheriff's bomb truck was at the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office Training Center, N.E. 36th and Air Depot, at the time of the blast and responded immediately.
We conclude that these responding units, as well as many other law enforcement officers, medical personnel, and other citizens who responded to the building so promptly should be congratulated. There is absolutely no support that this prompt response was evidence of prior knowledge and we do not understand why others have tried to twist this into something evil.
H. THE ELEVATORS
There were claims that no one could possibly have been in the elevators in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building at the time of the blast. DEA Agent Dave Schickendanz, has said that ATF Resident-in-Charge (RAC) Alex McCauley, was in an elevator with him when the blast occurred.
Through the testimony of other witnesses and photographs of the elevators taken minutes after the blast, the Grand Jury believes RAC McCauley and Agent Schickendanz were in elevator three which stopped on the third floor, and were able to get out on their own.
I. UNIDENTIFIED FINGERPRINTS
There were over one thousand latent fingerprints taken from various locations which the FBI has not been able to identify through comparisons with known suspects. However, there are many fingerprints that have been identified. We are confident that the FBI will compare the as yet unidentified prints with additional persons if any future evidence warrants it.
J. THE MORE THAN ONE BOMB THEORY
Based on our investigation we believe that there was a single bomb.
1. Testimony about sound waves and layers of the earth's crust, and that ground waves travel faster than air waves rendered the two bomb theory inconclusive. The seismograph closest to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building recorded one blast. The seismograph in Norman recorded two sound waves. This was explained due to the density of the earth's crust. The first was the ground wave followed by the airwave five seconds later. The farther the waves go the more separation in time the waves get until they can no longer be measured. 2. The burns on the victims and the building from the blast depict a definite pattern of a singular explosion according to the expert testimony. The intensity and the direction of the burns and debris substantiate only one bomb. The greater distance from the detonation site less debris was found. The rebar in the building was bent in many directions because of falling debris.
K. THE SHERIFF'S BOMB TRUCK
Some people have claimed to have seen the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Bomb Squad truck early the morning of April 19th, 1995. It was possible to see the truck, as it was in the downtown area. The driver of the truck picked up the truck at 7:00 a.m. to prepare for a training session. He drove to the County Courthouse to complete a work schedule, and he parked the truck in the alley next to the County Annex and Investors Capital Building. From there he went to a McDonald's located at Western and Sheridan at about 7:40 a.m. He then drove on I-40 east to the training center which is located at 4001 Air Depot Road. When the Oklahoma County Sheriff's bomb truck driver heard the bomb and felt the shock wave, he proceeded to the building and arrived around 9:12 a.m.
When the bomb exploded the Oklahoma City Police Department Bomb Squad tried to get their bomb truck to the Murrah building, but the truck experienced mechanical difficulties. This bomb truck had to be towed to the Murrah building. It arrived at around 10:00 a.m.
A box was found in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, and it was believed to be a bomb. After checking it for a possible bomb it was found to be an inert T.O.W. missile. It was put in the Sheriff's bomb truck and taken to the training area. Later it was discovered the inert T.O.W. missile belonged to U.S. Customs for an investigation they were conducting.
L. WAS MORE THAN ONE RYDER TRUCK USED IN THE BOMBING OF THE ALFRED P. MURRAH FEDERAL BUILDING
Many people say they saw the Ryder truck at Geary Lake. The problem with this is that they say they saw the Ryder truck at Geary Lake at times and dates which conflict with other sightings. The Ryder truck we believe to be carrying the bomb was picked up on Monday, April 17, 1995.
Many sightings placed a Ryder truck at Geary Lake before the 17th. Some reported that the Ryder truck was seen with the Mercury Marquis. Many describe a Ryder truck with cabover and others with no side door at Geary Lake.
Only two witnesses came forward and talked to the FBI about seeing a Ryder truck at Geary Lake before the stories about the lake were aired in the media. One witness said he saw a Ryder truck with a dark colored pick-up truck parked next to it at around 7:45-8:0 a.m. on April 18, 1995. The other witness described the Ryder truck as having a Broncho type vehicle or dark pick-up parked next to it at 9:00 a.m. on the same day.
On May 2, 1995, the FBI set up a road block to find out whether other witnesses had seen the Ryder truck. It was there that all kinds of Ryder truck sightings were reported. Witnesses described a Ryder truck with trailer, a cabover Ryder truck, or a 15 foot Ryder truck. Numerous witnesses did not report seeing a Ryder truck at Geary Lake until after media coverage.
M. VITAL STATISTICS
After the bombing on April 19, 1995, the FBI conducted over 35,000 personal interviews worldwide. The Grand Jury has also interviewed numerous witnesses generated by local sources not contacted by the FBI. An on-going investigation is still being conducted by the FBI.
Over 2,700,000 motel records were examined concerning the travels of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols prior to the bombing. These were achieved by canvassing the areas around the telephone calls attributed to the Daryl Bridges phone card. Timothy McVeigh had registered at ten different motels and Terry Nichols had registered at four.
There were 685 calls on the Daryl Bridges phone card between November 1993 and April 17, 1995. 101 pay telephones were used along with eight residential listings. There were no more calls made on the phone card after Timothy McVeigh's arrest on April 19, 1995. Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and Marife Nichols were the only names established on the Daryl Bridges phone card.
The FBI's intense investigation consisted of over two million man hours along with tens of thousands of other man hours from local authorities.
The FBI set up a 1-800 communication line immediately after the bombing. Anyone who thought they had any information could call the FBI at absolutely no expense. This line is still in active service and is being monitored by the FBI, who take the information and investigate any leads to a logical conclusion.
For the first 10 days (April 19th, 1995 through April 29th, 1995) the communication bill for the FBI's emergency command post along was $18,540.02.
N. ESTIMATED COSTS OF THE GRAND JURY
1. Oklahoma County Court Clerk (juror and bailiff payroll) $58,003.71 2. Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office (security, refreshments, room, supplies, copies, transportation) $82,271.61 3. Oklahoma County District Attorney's Office (witness fees and transportation expenses) $4,857.97 4. Oklahoma County District Attorney's Office (legal advisors, investigator, support staff and witness coordinator) $322,148.25 5. Oklahoma County Court Administrator (court reporters) $17,344.00 6. United States Government (federal witness costs) $40,809.00
GRAND TOTAL $525,434.54
CLOSING COMMENT
This Grand Jury is convinced that most witnesses who came before us described events that they believed to be true and accurate accounts of what they had observed. In some cases, their testimony could not be substantiated by any other evidence we could find.
There was unfortunately another group of witnesses who testified before us on issues that were not relevant or were found to be nothing more than a recitation of the already numerous and varied cover-up and conspiracy theories.
During the course of this Grand Jury's investigation, we have observed a tremendous amount of journalistic overlap in a number of magazines, books, talk radio shows and internet websites. The same misprinted information is repeated over and over again without any validating its veracity. Sadly, these organizations and individuals have glorified those convicted in federal court by vilifying the federal government and increasing the public's distrust of its government by providing half-truths, uncorroborated, and oftentimes out-right false information.
We would like to specifically address each of the falsehoods asserted by these individuals. Unfortunately, due to the current status of the law in the State of Oklahoma, we cannot specifically mention individual's testimony or comment on the motivation or professionalism of certain other individuals. We can and have, however, expressed our appreciation towards those individuals that are worthy of such.
We are aware that no matter what we do we will be criticized by some. We rely on the common sense of the public to recognize the motives for such criticism. As 14 individuals that have met for 18 months, we brought to this Grand Jury a wealth of diversity. We dedicated ourselves to trying to find out the truth. In spite of those who criticized us and our legal advisors, we worked hard and we were not distracted. We persevered and continued to focus on our task.
After meeting 133 days, hearing 117 witnesses, listening to over a hundred hours of video and audio tapes, and thoroughly examining several thousand pages of exhibits, we can state with assurance that we do not believe that the federal government had prior knowledge that this horrible terrorist attack was going to happen. We also do not believe that this was sting operation that went too far or that this was a terrorist attack financed or conceived by individuals outside of this country. This was an act perpetrated by Americans on Americans. Our First Amendment provides for the freedom of speech. Seizing upon this Constitutional right, certain individuals have published and personally profited off books illustrating recipes for such destruction. This was an act that could have been carried out by one individual. We cannot affirmatively state that absolutely no one else was involved in the bombing of the Alfred p. Murrah Federal Building. However, we have not been presented with or uncovered information sufficient to indict any additional conspirators.
As Americans we do not want to believe that fellow Americans could plot, scheme and carry out such a cowardly act in the name of protest. Tragically this is the current reality of the world in which we live. City, county, state and federal law enforcement agencies should be praised for the manner in which they handled this tragedy on the scene, and additionally for the manner in which they investigated and quickly apprehended those responsible.
Mike, http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3afc71fa212a.htm
To: DoughtyOne I have always said, if the media finally breaks just one of the following, OKC, the China Connection, Clinton's Criminality, the Foster Case, Waco or TWA Flight 800, it's likely the coverups will all tumbling down. Once the public understands our nation's highest law enforcement agencies and elected officials cooperated to stonewall these issues, they'll be a lot less likely to buy the party line from here on out. Here's to that one network that has the guts to cleanse this nation once and for all. 18 Posted on 05/11/2001 15:34:29 PDT by DoughtyOne
bttt
bttt
bttt for excellence DO
The history the government hopes you DON'T learn!
So you're buying the OKC Grand Jury conclusions as gospel hugh? Whew, if you're that outa the loop you're one out of your element squirrel on a thread like this one.
Normal people would stop posting the government's conclusions about the OK City bombing on the very day the goverment stands exposed for concealing part of the evidence from the body that wrote that conclusion.
The reports you keep posting are based on the evidence the government allowed to be seen. Now it is known that some of the facts were withheld. The reports you keep posting, based on that selective evidence, and written without having all the facts in hand, are totally discredited. Garbage in, garbage out.
The grand jury did not have all the facts. Therefore their conclusions are noe invalidated.
More to the point, YOU don't have all the facts, and in your persistance in repeating the government's now discredited conclusions, you prove that truth and facts were never your agenda, so much as propaganda.
Mike, email your stuff to: oreilly@foxnews.com
Gee, I am surprised that no one has posted the connection to Osama Bin Laden to the OKC bombing on this thread (sarcasm)...
"So you're buying the OKC Grand Jury conclusions as gospel huh?"
That's what pegs _Jim as a shill. The OK City Grand Jury provably did not have all the information, only that which the FBI allowed to be seen to create the conclusion the FBI wanted.
CNN has confirmed that the withheld documents contain eyewitness statements to at least one other bomber, statements the grand jury never got to see, statements which _Jim could never have seen.
The Grand Jury's conclusions are automatically invalidated by the fact they were not given all the evidence.
But what really marks _Jim as a spook is that even though he cannot possibly have seen the materials regarding John Doe No. 2 which CNN has confirmed are included in the withheld evidence, _Jim still continues to try to claim that he knows all the witnesses to additional bombers and additional bombs are all wrong, and that he, _Jim the Great, _Jim the all knowing, the all seeing, (First 5 minutes one dollar, fifty cents a minute thereafter) is the only one gifted with the ability to know, without seeing those documents, that nothing will be found in them.
Just keep spamming. People know to read between you posts.
Poor Jim probably hasn't heard of Elohim City. If he has then he's a damn liar. At Elohim City there were three different individuals who each thought they were the government's lone undercover person on scene.
The owner of Elohim City was an informant. Andreas Strausmeyer was a government informant. And the young woman who's name I've forgotten for the moment was another government informant. These people met Tim McVeigh before the bombing. The young woman told her handlers that there were going to be a bombing. She mention two or three different locations, one of which was a building in OKC call Murrah.
It's rather sad to see someone with "PLANT" written all over them on threads like this.
The statements you have posted stand on their own. I am amazed that a person who is capable of posting the materials Jim has, is unable to read them and gain any insight into the Oklahoma bombing.
What does Jim have to say about the judge who was warned to stay away from court the morning of the bombing? What does Jim have to say about the Fireman who testified he was told in advance there was to be a major incident on the day of the bombing?
Jim. Shut that yap of your's for a few minutes and try learning something. Obviously you could use a little briefing on this case.
However, in spite of all the evidence before us we cannot finally put closure to the question of the existence of a John Doe II. We are encouraged that the FBI continues to have an agent assigned full-time to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing
168 people are dead and hundreds were injured and
they got one FBI guy assigned to investigate for John Doe II?
This is F@#king pitiful.
I just took a short tour of _jim('s) posts on this forum. Most of them look like they were cookie cutter jobs from a government site. Big surprise.
Poor Jim probably hasn't heard of Elohim City.STRAIGHT out of the playbook of McVeigh's first attorney Oklahoma Jones.It appears we havn't *all* done our homework - have we?
IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE TENTH CIRCUIT
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Petitioner-Defendant,A small 'excerpt':
The evidence collected by the defense suggests that the desired ideology was found by the state-sponsored terrorists in Elohim City, Oklahoma, a small compound near Muldrow, Oklahoma,MUCH more of this pap at:--snip--
consisting of between 25 and 30 families and described as a terrorist organization which preaches white supremacy, polygamy and overthrow of the government. Elohim City was a haven for former members of The Covenant, The Sword and the Arm of the Lord ("CSA"), another extremist organization that had been raided by the federal government on April 19, 1995, exactly ten years to the day prior to the Oklahoma City bombing. One member of CSA turned on the organization and testified in court at the trial of Richard Snell and others who were charged in Arkansas with sedition in that they conspired to destroy the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City with a rocket launcher in the early 1980's. Snell was convicted on unrelated capital charges and sentenced to death in Arkansas. He was executed the day of the Oklahoma City bombing--April 19, 1995--and is buried at Elohim City. It is from this group of people that the defense believes that the evidence suggests foreign, state-sponsored terrorists groomed the most radical persons associated with Elohim City and extracted monumental revenge against the federal government by destroying the Murrah Building on the day of Richard Snell's execution and the anniversary date of federal raid.
But the defense hypothesis also entails evidence, very strong evidence, that the federal government, through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, had an informant in Elohim City, an informant who warned federal law enforcement prior to April 19, 1995, that former residents, including the former chief of security, of Elohim City were planning to "target for destruction" federal buildings in Oklahoma, including the Alfred P. Murrah Building ...
I found out who _Jim is:
ov- er
"Arlene was a survivor of the bombing. In this press release, issued at the time of her grand jury appearence, she reveals that she was ordered to keep silent about what she knew of the bombing by the Army under threat of court martial."
O.K. ... I read this press release, but where and what is the information she knew about the bombing that is so important?
Did I miss something?
"Did I miss something? "
ONly that the government was threatening people to keep silent.
You missed my point. I agreed that there are those who have influence over what the media reports (or fails to report). My point was that there is NO WAY they can control ALL of the media, American and foreign, ALL the time.
And the worst thing is..........
He's not even a very good shill. But he's probably the best they have!
Bumpity Bump BUMP!!
Elohim City was a haven for former members of The Covenant, The Sword and the Arm of the Lord ("CSA"), another extremist organization that had been raided by the federal government on April 19, 1995, exactly ten years to the day prior to the Oklahoma City bombing...
You don't mind if I quote from your materials do you Jim? Could you tell us when the bombing of the Murrah building took place? Evidently the person who developed the materials you're quoting thinks it took place on April 19, 2005. Perhaps before you return to the forum you could develop a better source.
Sorry to be so picky.
I am really appreciating your efforts today, Michael. Even if the documents prove meaningless, or duplicates of already viewed materials-your work is extraordinary. I won't be able to grasp all of it-even if I spent the weekend doing nothing else. But I want and need to say that because of what happened at WACO, and Alamo-Girl's and ol Dan Tucker's extraordinary work on the bomb blast over the shelter, and the horrendous deaths those families underwent (for WHAT? so bill and hillary could look, what? In control? Oh blow me over with a feather! How sick is that?), this conservative mom does not shut herself off from looking at issues from all sides. Liberals use the word conspiracy theorist to denigrate and marginalize those who close in on the truth (albeit there are paranoid wackos who deserve the nomenclature, you don't). My brother is friends with a really great guy who WITNESSED the MISSILE going UP to intersect with TWA. Therefore our family will NEVER get over the way the witnesses to this horror were shut out of the investigation. I am sorry this is taking so long-but what I am trying to say is-THANKS. You are making many of us THINK! And the name callers be Dam+ed. You were right- INFORMATION WAS WITHHELD.
The question I have Mike, if you are still reading this blather is as follows:
Mike, you have provided documents to back up your theory. Including photos, etc. But why haven't you spoken of the reporter who tried, BEGGED, the FBI at the Okla office to take her notarized documents ( as she spoke of on O'Reilly and today on Fox News Live)? I want to know if it is possible to get the NAMES of the person or persons in Denver who told the FBI in Okla to REFUSE to take her information. I want to know if DOJ employees were working alongside the FBI at critical offices to ensure a censure of incriminating (to be specific-clinton administration involvement) evidence. Mike-I know that some FBI folks are corrupt, and I know that MOST of the DOJ was corrupt under CLinton. I would like to know how much the DOJ was involved with the bombing.
Also-Mike-ya know, it is GOOD that the archivist made this info known. Who did the archivist inform. Whoever it was-that person was HONEST and that is the entire reason we KNOW about this find in the first place. So there are some good eggs Micheal. Maybe, this was left to a time when the impact would be greatest. Maybe, there are whistleblowers out there who have been waiting for honest people to run our agencys. And Michael-no one, NO ONE, is perfect.
There must be some kind of miscommnunication. I have nothing against Rivero. This sort of thing is exactly what Freenet was created for. My intent was to promote Freenet, not disparage Rivero.
Then please accept my appology. I was watching for people who were going to start trashing Michael and misinterpreted your comments. Sorry about that.
And check out that thin Al Gore look-alike.
BUMP. Do you think the reason the electronic media have been so silent and even antagonistic toward any other explanation is because they've been told to cooperate or lose their licences to broadcast?
That's what I was thinking. The only way a news source withholds info is when it will hurt them. The only way to hurt the news media is to disallow future access, etc. "Pssst.... if you forget about this story, I'll give you an exclusive about something big that is brewing...If you don't forget about this story, there will be no more Lincoln bedroom nights or parties at Alec Baldwin's house for you!"
You are often wrong, but on this issue and TWA800 you are dead-nuts accurate.
He's done damn good work on the death of Vincent Foster too. His silver/black gun analysis made a convert of me.
Thanks for the link, XBob!
The grand jury did not have all the facts. Therefore their conclusions are noe invalidated.
From a logic standpoint, that is not an accurate statement. The grand jury could indeed come to the correct conclusions based on the information at hand. More facts could or could not validate those conclusions. If one uses your statement to apply to other events, be it science, politics or whatever, we would not be able to draw conclusions of a reasonable nature, as one could always claim there were additional facts.
"From a logic standpoint, that is not an accurate statement. The grand jury could indeed come to the correct conclusions based on the information at hand. More facts could or could not validate those conclusions."
From a logic standpoint, you cannot assume they have reached the correct conclusion once it is known there are additional facts.
Once it became known that the FBI had withheld documents, including apparenrly all of the witness statements detailing perpetrators other than McVeigh, the Grand Jury report cannot be assumed to be accurate or correct. There is a reasonable doubt, and reasonable doubt is what our justice system acquits on.
Bttt.
5.56mm
I am not talking specifically about the OKC matter. I am talking about facts, logic and reasoning used to substantiate conclusions.
The conclusions of the grand jury, or any reasonable man or reasonable body can indeed be made based on a set of facts or information. Additional facts do not render their conclusions invalidated. There conclusions may be incomplete or at worst inaccurate. It is also possible that their conclusions are accurate. Whether you agree with that or not, it is a possibility The point is there needs to be a precise use of language in this matter. We're talking about people's lives.
Let's all mail this thread to Fox News, just to make it impossible to pretend they are unaware of the official documents documenting additional bombs.
Bump this a thousand times.
Thanks Michael. I'm 180 degrees out of phase with a lot you say; but I think your work on Vince Foster, TWA800, and OKC has been excellent - and is very much appreciated.
I'll pray the truth finds the daylight in this world - but I'll also be comforted in knowing that there is no lie that is hid, nor will go unpunished, in the time alloted by the Lord
Fox is being very favorable to FR, let's not make them mad with too much incoming. Keep up the great work, Michael
As to why they don't cover this material, when you answer that question you will know who McVeigh was working for.
Great work Michael. However, I never see the proposition that the government works for the media and their cronies, not vice-versa. When totalitarians have a virtual monopoly on all media sources, politicians play by their rules. It is very difficut to have a political career if the media and their friends decide you are not willing to be somewhat subordinate to them.
Control of the media is control of opinion and culture.
Seemingly Fox News Channel is a bit outside of this monopoly, but I suspect, given time, they will be bought out and added to the stable.
Do you think the reason the electronic media have been so silent and even antagonistic toward any other explanation is because they've been told to cooperate or lose their licences to broadcast?
So why wouldn't they make public the threat and tell the government to go to h***? Maybe the corrupt Clinton administration could have made such a threat stick, and have kept any attempt to make the matter public out of the media. But now, under Dubya?
This all comes out the week we find out the FBI knew of an
innocent man incarcerated in prison for thirty years in Boston, just
to keep the lid on a sting.
For a crime they new he did not do.
Fox has little credibility in my book.
Any organization that puts the grand liar and political communist, Holmes, on the air is not for the truth. They are simply for the ratings and making money. They should make money, but not at the expense of the truth that is hurting this nation so badly.
Nice work, Michael. Copies of original documents are far more powerful than mere transcripts; thanks for providing.
From my experience, I know that an ANFO explosion burns too slowly to cut steel-reinforced concrete, so other charges were obviously necessary to have done that damage. That the feds so deliberately overlooked all evidence except against the dupes, McVeigh and Nichols, proves the government's prior knowledge and organized coverup.
"Any organization that puts the grand liar and political communist, Holmes, on the air is not for the truth. "
Colmes interviewed me on his radio show regarding Vincent Foster, and I was able to corner him into having to admit that he hadn't actually read any of the factual evidence in the case and based his conclusion that Vince Foster committed suicide solely because that was what the government said.
Which probably explains why they never called back for a second interview.
From my experience, I know that an ANFO explosion burns too slowly to cut steel-reinforced concrete,
I am in no way disputing your experience, but from a photo I saw of the collapsed building, there was little or no reinforcing (rebar) steel in the concrete...certainly not like any concrete structures I have seen built...more like third world country building practices...I need to see more close-up photos to be sure.
I knew Jean Seberg. She and I were both delegates to Iowa Girls' State in 1955. She was governor (or lieutenant governor) and I was a senator.
We spent the week together.
I mourned when she died.
You make a 'he said he did it, therefore he is guilty, therefore more knowledge is pointless" arguement.
Fine, but Oswald said he did not do "it" and paid anyway. I presume from your posts that you agree with that result anyway?
Fine, but Galleleo was, in fact, guilty and more (available) knowledge would have told Columbus that the world was flat:
aren't you glad the went ahead to explore "pointless" possibilities?
He's not even a very good shill. But he's probably the best they have!
What's this "they" business? If he's a goobermint shill, our tax dollars are paying for the shilling. We should settle for nothing less than the very best in shilling.
I plan to write my Congressman and see if they can pass the Shill Reform Act of 2001 (also known on the Hill as the "Shill Full Employment Act of 2001), so that we can get the kind of quality shilling we should expect from our hard-earned tax dollars!
Red Flags From an Expert
by William F. Jasper
One of the earliest calls placed by THE NEW AMERICAN in our investigation into the Oklahoma City bombing was to Brigadier General Benton K. Partin (USAF, retired). As one of the world’s foremost experts in both the theoretical and practical applications of explosives technology, General Partin possesses virtually unparalleled qualifications to authoritatively evaluate the public-source information available on the bombing.
From the start, the general expressed very strong misgivings about the “official” story — that the horrendous damage to the federal building had been caused solely by the reported truck bomb. Too many facts, he said, “simply just don’t add up” to support that convenient explanation. For Partin, the reported “facts” contradicted not only the laws of physics, but a lifetime of personal experience as well.
Appeal for Delay
In a letter to Senator Don Nickles (R-OK), which he personally delivered to the senator’s Washington office on May 18th of last year, General Partin appealed for action to delay destruction of the Murrah Building until a full, independent forensic examination of the site could be conducted. In that letter, which was also personally delivered to the offices of 23 other senators and some 30 members of the House, the general offered his initial analysis of the bombing evidence and explained:
I am concerned that vital evidence will soon be destroyed with the pending demolition of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City. From all the evidence I have seen in the published material, I can say with a high level of confidence that the damage pattern on the reinforced concrete superstructure could not possibly have been attained from the single truck bomb without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforced column bases. The total incompatibility with a single truck bomb lies in the fact that either some of the columns collapsed that should not have collapsed or some of the columns are still standing that should have collapsed and did not.
“To produce the resulting damage pattern on the building,” wrote Partin, “there would have to have been an effort with demolition charges at column bases to compliment or supplement the truck bomb damage. A careful examination of the collapsed column bases would readily reveal a failure mode produced by a demolition charge. This evidence would be so critical, [that] a separate and independent assessment should be made before a building demolition team destroys the evidence forever.”
General Partin was not offering another “wacko conspiracy theory.” He was offering solid, compelling, methodical, scientific analysis backed by a sterling career and impeccable credentials. Twenty-five of his 31 years of active service in the Air Force were involved in intensive research, design, development, testing, and management of weapons at all levels. This included extensive hands-on work at the Ballistic Research Laboratories and field testing of all types of explosives on a broad spectrum of structures and targets. He served as commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory and was the first chairman of the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD) joint service Air Munitions Requirements and Development Committee, responsible for munitions development for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines.
General Partin is recognized as a major guiding force behind our modern precision guided weapons systems. As far back as the late 1950s, he developed the earliest focused energy weapons program, wrote the first contract for laser weapons development, and pushed for deployment of a functional “Star Wars” missile defense system decades before it became the hotly debated issue of the 1980s. General Partin was a Command Pilot and Command Missileman, a Distinguished Graduate of the Air War College, a recipient of the Distinguished Service Medal, and thrice a recipient of the Legion of Merit. In short, General Benton Partin is an “expert’s expert,” and his carefully reasoned analysis should command a respectful hearing. Unfortunately, he received no hearing whatsoever from political officialdom or from the arbiters of “acceptable” debate in the Establishment media.
Glaring Inconsistencies
General Partin’s analysis focuses on a number of crucially important and glaring inconsistencies in the forensic evidence of the Murrah Building that continue to challenge the official truck bomb scenario. These include:
• Pattern and magnitude of the damage. These were “technically impossible without supplementing demolition charges,” says Partin.
• Demolition charge signatures on columns and header beam. The smooth failure modes and exposed steel rebar are clear signs of contact charges.
• Position of the collapsed columns and header beam. If caused by the truck bomb, they should have been blown at least slightly inward, but instead came straight down.
• Contradictory damage to light and heavy materials. It is “absurd,” says Partin, to hold that the truck bomb blast was powerful enough to take down large, steel-reinforced, concrete columns and still leave sheet rock, furring strips, and other light, decorative materials virtually unfazed.
• Structural soundness of the remaining building. If the blast from the truck bomb was sufficient to cause the damage seen at the Murrah Building, much greater structural damage would have been sustained by the remainder of the building which was left standing. However, structural analysis revealed that it was relatively sound. Evidence of Blast Charges
General Partin has repeatedly emphasized some of the basic physics problems associated with the single-truck-bomb scenario which seem to be lost on most laymen — and even many professional demolitionists — who are unduly impressed with the huge blast wave associated with the Ryder truck explosion. “First, blast through air is a very inefficient energy-coupling mechanism against heavy reinforced concrete beams and columns,” the general points out. “Second, blast-damage potential initially falls off more rapidly than an inverse function of the distance cubed. That is why in conventional weapons development, one seeks accuracy over yield for hard targets. Columns in large buildings are hard targets for blast.”
This principle was very well illustrated, he noted, in the bombing of the World Trade Center. In that case, he told THE NEW AMERICAN, a similar truck bomb blew a large cavity through several floors above and below the bomb but caused very little lateral damage. “The floor areas directly above and below the bomb were accelerated by the blast force and completely stripped away, but you can see in the published photos that the reinforced concrete column is standing there in the middle of the cavity with no damage.”
“The entire building in Oklahoma City could have been collapsed with relatively small demolition charges against the base of the columns and with even less explosives if linear cavity cutting charges had been used,” General Partin wrote in his letter to Senator Nickles. Partin’s point was dramatically illustrated with the final demolition of the Murrah Building on May 23, 1995. As that event demonstrated, a very small amount of explosives is required to bring down a large building — if the demolition charges are strategically placed within, or in direct contact with, the key structural points of the building. A spokesman for Control Demolition, Inc. informed THE NEW AMERICAN that less than 150 pounds of explosives placed in 420 locations were used to fell the three-fourths of the building left standing after the April 19th explosion.
Exhaustive Study
On July 13, 1995, General Partin released his 23-page report entitled Bomb Damage Analysis of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The study includes five full-page color photographs taken of key areas of the crime scene which the general asserts provide “irrefutable evidence that at least four demolition charges were set off at four critical columns of the reinforced concrete structure at the floor level of the third floor.” The report also includes an important aerial-view diagram of the Murrah Building showing the position of the truck bomb in relation to the building damage and a computation by Partin of the damage potential of the blast wave pressure in concentric circles as it radiates out from the blast source. (The photo on page 26 is based on the Partin diagram.)
THE NEW AMERICAN stands virtually alone in having published not only all of the report’s photographs and the building diagram, but a substantial portion of the text as well, together with interview comments from General Partin. (See our August 7, 1995 issue, “Explosive Evidence of a Cover-up.”) Space does not permit us to duplicate that valuable and extensive coverage here, so we have summarized some of the most compelling points made by General Partin.
It is particularly worth noting that no developments in the ensuing months have impeached or seriously challenged Partin’s compelling analysis. Indeed, quite the contrary. One of the more interesting examples of the general’s vindication can be found in the “official commemorative volume” of the Oklahoma City tragedy, In Their Name. This “officially authorized” book, with an epilogue by Governor and Mrs. Frank Keating, contains many moving photographs and stories, as well as much useful data and many valuable illustrations. In the middle of the book is a large illustration of the Murrah Building spanning two pages (pages 86-87) and detailing the damage caused by the April 19th blast. What is quite striking about the illustration is that the artist has obviously moved the bomb crater to the left so that it is aligned with the deep blast cavity that extends into the building where the B3 column was collapsed, thus “solving” one of the glaring inconsistencies in the crime scene evidence pointed out in the Partin analysis.
That this placement of the crater is clearly wrong can be verified by an examination of almost any aerial photo of the building which shows the crater. In fact, In Their Name provides just such a shot a few pages earlier in the book (pages 82-83) which patently contradicts the illustration. What this episode demonstrates is that — whether consciously or unconsciously — the illustrator (and/or the book’s producers) have attempted to reconcile the conspicuously conflicting data by altering the evidence to fit the official story. However, this only serves to reinforce the trenchant arguments advanced by Partin.
Diagramming the Blast
General Partin’s bomb-damage diagram illustrates the fact that in the first row of columns facing the street where the truck bomb was parked (row A), seven columns (A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8) collapsed, while in row B only B3 failed. Unlike rows B and C, where all 11 columns ran from the ground floor to the top of the building, in row A the bases of the even-numbered columns stood on a heavy reinforced horizontal concrete header which was supported by the odd-numbered columns.
“The truck bomb was not in front of column A3,” the general explains, “but instead, as the crater shows, between columns A4 and A5, which means that column B4, which did not come down, would have received about 40 percent more blast pressure than B3 which did come down. If any columns were going to come down in the B row it would have been columns B4 and B5. You don’t have to go any further than that to know that you had a demolition charge on column B3 — unless you believe in magic.”
Additionally, the photographs reveal a number of other troubling dilemmas. 93"If you look at those B-row columns,” says Partin, “you can see that they still have furring strips and sheetrock on them.... Now, you can’t have the blast reaching clear in to column B3 and bringing down that heavy reinforced column and at the same time not even blowing off this lighter covering from the column.” (See page 27, bottom photo.)
Restating his earlier point about the tremendous falloff of blast pressure traveling through air, General Partin makes this important observation:
Using the official estimate usually cited for the amount of explosive in the truck bomb — 4,800 pounds — would yield a sphere of ammonium nitrate about 41/2 feet in diameter with a blast pressure of about 1/2 million pounds per square inch at the detonation point. But by the time the blast wave travels through the air to the nearest of the columns in the A row (A5) it dropped off to around 375 pounds of pressure per square inch, and by the time it reaches the B row columns it’s down in the range of 27 to 38 [pounds per square inch]. And out at column A7 it’s down around 25 to 35 pounds per square inch. The yield strength of concrete is around 3,500 pounds per square inch, and yet we’re supposed to believe that this large, reinforced concrete column is going to be brought down by 25 to 35 pounds of pressure? It’s absurd.
According to General Partin’s authoritative analysis, the blast wave from the truck bomb would have carried sufficient force to cause considerable damage to the face of the building and to some of its floors, but would have fallen far short of the force needed to cause the massive structural damage experienced at the Murrah Building.
Other Examples
This opinion is consistent not only with the bomb damage at the World Trade Center cited earlier, but from the results of other terrorist bombings as well. One of those which closely parallels the Oklahoma City incident is the 1989 bombing of the DAS (Colombia’s police intelligence) headquarters in Bogota, Colombia by drug lords of the Medellin cartel. An estimated 1,300 pounds of dynamite (which is much more powerful, pound-for-pound, than the ammonium nitrate mixture suspected in the Oklahoma City Ryder truck) packed in a bus was detonated in front of the 11-story DAS building. Although witnesses and survivors compared the explosion, which caused damage in a 26-block area and took dozens of lives, to “a mini-atom bomb,” the blast did not cause the kind of severe structural damage seen in Oklahoma City.
Another strike against the single-truck-bomb theory is the structural integrity of the remainder of the Murrah Building after the explosion. A single bomb large enough to cause the devastation seen in that structure would also cause considerable structural damage to the rest of the building. However, architects involved in the structural safety assessments said that this was not the case. Architect Ed Kirkpatrick told THE NEW AMERICAN that most of the building was structurally sound and worth rebuilding. Jim Loftis, the architect who designed the award-winning building, concurred, stating, “I think technologically we could have removed the damaged part of the building and rebuilt it ....”
. © Copyright 2001 American Opinion Publishing Incorporated
And by the way, I was at Dhahran a month after the bomb went off...got lots of pictures of the Khobar Towers building that was blown up. Compared to the Murrah bldg, it was made of chicken wire and papier mache'. It was a humongous truck bomb, left a crater 70' wide and 30' deep. Those there at the time told me the ground shook like an earthquake 5 miles away. Yet, compare the photos of the Murrah bldg and the Khobar bldg...they look roughly the same. Problem is, the Murrah bldg was MUCH sturdier, and I don't think nearly as powerful a bomb. Tinfoil hats on....
Have to agree, (a) I loathe Alan Colmes, and (b)Fox is also doubtful.
I raced home tonight, passed up work on my car and a local cruise night, to see what was on the air.
Puff balls! That's what was on the air!
John what's'name doing warm fuzzies with the nice lady who had eleventeen operations after the building fell on her
... no O'Reilley and I can't bear Hannity or colmes.
Stick with FR, stick with the under current until it becomes the main stream.
Then look for another under current.
"I plan to write my Congressman and see if they can pass the Shill Reform Act of 2001 (also known on the Hill as the "Shill Full Employment Act of 2001), so that we can get the kind of quality shilling we should expect from our hard-earned tax dollars!"
The problem is that since the Constitution does not explicitly authorize the government to lie to the people, the mere presence of government shills trying to promote a cover-up delegitimizes the government. The government is acting both unconstitutionally and illegally.
When they lie to us, they are criminals. I know the shills like to hallucinate that they are somehow loyal patriotic Ameicans for lying to the rest of us, but then I guess the Gestapo thought they were a swell bunch of guys too.
"Mike, email your stuff to: oreilly@foxnews.com "
I just did, and IT WAS BLOCKED!
""Mike, email your stuff to: oreilly@foxnews.com "
I just did, and IT WAS BLOCKED!"
I just sent the link to this thread and THAT CAME BACK AS BLOCKED!
Fox News is starting to look like a little kid with its eyes tight shut, fingers in ear, stamping their feet and shouting, "I CAN'T SEE IT AND I CAN'T HEAR IT, NYAHH NYAHH NYAHH."
BTT
"...from a photo I saw of the collapsed building, there was little or no reinforcing (rebar) steel in the concrete...certainly not like any concrete structures I have seen built...more like third world country building practices..." -lewislynn
There is not a building code in the world which allows such a large multi-story building to have its vertical concrete columns poured without significant steel reinforecment; this has been standard building practice for a century.
You might recall the truck bomber who took down the Marine BLT 1/8 Headquarters building in the third world city of Beirut almost 18 years ago... That was a massive structure resting on large columns of steel-reinforced concrete. The driver reached reached the atrium lobby before detonating his huge, sophisticated bomb -- which was specifically designed with the necessary criticality to cut the concrete columns.
NO CRUDE, SLOW-BURNING ANFO BOMB COULD EVER DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE TO STEEL-REINFORCED CONCRETE COLUMNS! THEREFORE, THERE HAD TO HAVE BEEN OTHER CHARGES ON OR NEAR THOSE COLUMNS TO CUT THEM.
Semper Fi BTTT
The problem is that since the Constitution does not explicitly authorize the government to lie to the people, the mere presence of government shills trying to promote a cover-up delegitimizes the government. The government is acting both unconstitutionally and illegally.
I know that, and for what it's worth, my post wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of underscoreJim either. (And for the Fox newshounds reading this thread, there isn't really any Shill Full Employment Act before Congress.).
Also for what it's worth, I've never believed the lone truck theory, and I respect General Partin's analysis of the situation.
Oh, _Jim, we love you anyway! Sometimes you almost contribute.
Thanks for the link, I had not seen it.
"NO CRUDE, SLOW-BURNING ANFO BOMB COULD EVER DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE TO STEEL-REINFORCED CONCRETE COLUMNS! THEREFORE, THERE HAD TO HAVE BEEN OTHER CHARGES ON OR NEAR THOSE COLUMNS TO CUT THEM. "
Two different audio recordings, one by a lawyer several blocks away and the other by the Oklahoma Water Board just across the street, captured a high frequency pulse consistant with the detonation of a cutter charge 4.2 seconds prior to the truck bomb blast. The 4.2 second spacing is identical for both recording locations, proving that it is indeed a seperate event unrelated to the truck bomb detonation which follows.
It is interesting to note that one survivor in the Murrah Building was found under his desk, and reported that he had felt the Murrah Building shake once, feared an earthquake, and had "several seconds" in which to crawl under his desk, where he was when the truck bomb (and all but two of the bombs inside the Murrah building) exploded. This survivor was quite adament that he would not have survived the bombing had it not been for the warning shake which occured prior to the truck bomb blast.
These three seperate pieces of evidence support the suggestion by General Partin and others that cutter charges were detonated inside the Murrah Building to weaken it prior to the main truck bomb blast.
"Also for what it's worth, I've never believed the lone truck theory, and I respect General Partin's analysis of the situation."
Partin has gonads, no doubt.
Thanks, I had no trouble with your link. It is getting late, I will look at it tomorrow. Thanks again.
Oreilly has his email set so it won't accept attachments, you will have to send plain text (no hyperlinks).
You don't remember TWA Flight 800? They put the reporter in jail!
"...Two different audio recordings... captured a high frequency pulse consistant with the detonation of a cutter charge 4.2 seconds prior to the truck bomb blast."
Remember, also, the University of Oklahoma (in nearby Norman) Earthquake Center's recording of two distinct seismic events? The truth, further corroborated...
Thanks for posting the official Grand Jury report of the OK City bombing.
I am talking about facts, logic and reasoning used to substantiate conclusions.
And that's why you're doomed.
Keepin' it btt.
Hi, Michael. Being a long-time researcher of documents myself, I’m just curious as to why all of your documents have the same gray background and have similar typestyles. Several of them also have similar formats. Were they all retyped and standardized? If so, why?
Oreilly has his email set so it won't accept attachments, you will have to send plain text (no hyperlinks).
Apparently you don't understand Occam's Razor; O'Reilly is a "shill".
I never heard about that. Thanks.
Dang !
Two different audio recordings, one by a lawyer several blocks away and the other by the Oklahoma Water Board just across the street, captured a high frequency pulse consistant with the detonation of a cutter charge 4.2 seconds prior to the truck bomb blast.
Can you post a link to those two recordings? We would like to hear them.
2. That the ATF was already putting out a story that the Murrah Building was bombed "because of Waco" only a few hours after the actual blast and before Tim McVeigh was even arested.
As I recall, watching the news live on CNN and NBC that day, the big rumor going around was that “Arab terrorists” might have done it.
It is interesting to note that one survivor in the Murrah Building was found under his desk, and reported that he had felt the Murrah Building shake once, feared an earthquake, and had "several seconds" in which to crawl under his desk, where he was when the truck bomb (and all but two of the bombs inside the Murrah building) exploded. This survivor was quite adament that he would not have survived the bombing had it not been for the warning shake which occured prior to the truck bomb blast.
Do you have some testimony or document related to this story? Why would only one guy in the entire building feel the “shake” and get under his desk? Why wouldn’t others feel the building “shake” and think there was an earthquake going on?
The whole point of my web site and my long years of posting is for people to quit waiting for someone else to tell them what to think and to start thinking for themselves.
But you are telling us what to think.
Their email won't accept attachments, have to do it another way.
The problem is that since the Constitution does not explicitly authorize the government to lie to the people, the mere presence of government shills trying to promote a cover-up delegitimizes the government.
When they lie to us, they are criminals. I know the shills like to hallucinate that they are somehow loyal patriotic Ameicans for lying to the rest of us, but then I guess the Gestapo thought they were a swell bunch of guys too.
Jim asked us all yesterday not to use any personal attack rhetoric on this message board. So what gives you the right to call someone a “government shill” today? Are you exempt from the rules of decorum?
yes email Fox, just sent the link to Oreilly
I admit you've got me curious. I've been to your web site. Some of the stuff is interesting, some I honestly disagree with, such as your Hawaii thing. There are others, but that is the one that stands out. I will have to go there again.
ok, after posts 121, my curiosity has peaked....what is a shill? no laughing please! LOL
When, Michael? Do you have somthing to point us to? A transcript?
I admit the Government lies. They do it all the time, particularly that war that's going on. However, I think we can be fairly certain that nothing exciting will emerge from the new documents.
This is an interesting thread Michael. You have presented some great documents. As I said before, I appreciate you sticking to your guns on this issue. But it disturbs me some of the off hand compliments you've received.
A number of people have dropped by to tell you what a flake they think you are, but they really agree with you on this subject. Geez, folks, how about a little respect for someone who's running interference for the truth. If you disagree with this thread and his documents, say so. Otherwise why not give him the respect he deserves.
Your documents clearly stand in stark opposition to the OKC Grand jury. Even so, people come here to defend the grand jury as if it were infalible. Folks, if Michael's documents didn't shoot down the grand jury, I might agree that it was infalible. But as it stands, the grand jury is shown up for the shallow brain dead conclusions it reached and the complete body of work that was obviously never presented to it.
This is a very important topic. We're all interested in what really happened. Let's not search for a reasons to diss Rivero unless the material he's presenting on this thread is flawed.
Thanks.
Keep up the good work MR.
I would have said,LOL, but you are so good and I think you are right!
Have you been to Michael's website? It's kinda entertaining.
BTTT
Where is the link to Mike's website?
Another bump!
Let me guess: you are Larry King?
Where did you get these? Please post more if you have them.
It would make sense that the communist in sheep's clothing who ran our government for the past 8 years had to come up with a way to convince the public that they should turn in their gunsso they could complete their plan to turn our country into 'The United States of China'. There was Waco, then what looks like happened is the ATF or other agency was involved to bomb the Murrah building setting up McVeigh to think that he was getting in on something big. Once the bombing took place, the gov't could then begin to discredit the militia groups (which I don't know if I have an opinion about) and begin the propaganda to 'turn in your weapons'.
One thing backfired though and that is that Gore lost the election.
Something isn't and never has been right about the way this investigation was handled. And to use the expression "Enquiring Minds Want to Know".
Hi, Michael. Being a long-time researcher of documents myself, I’m just curious as to why all of your documents have the same gray background and have similar typestyles. Several of them also have similar formats. Were they all retyped and standardized? If so, why?
1. The documents were scanned in. Depending on the settings of the scanner, a normally white background can become gray.
2. The gray background is not the same on all of the documents, which fact is clear once one expands the images.
3. The typestyles are noticeably different and varied, and this is again easily verified. Some of the images come from the same source, so they would be expected to be similar. But anyone can see for themselves, just by simply expanding the thumbnail images, that the type styles do vary.
4. In your statement about your qualification as a "long-time" researcher of documents, the expression "long-time" means precisely what? 2 days? 2 weeks? 2 months? 2 years? 2 decades? More than that?
Have you been to Michael's website? It's kinda entertaining.
I’ve glanced at it. I’ll get back to it later. Mike and I had a discussion in my JFK threads, and he said some things about the case that weren’t quite accurate. On his website, for example, he says Oswald was standing in front of the Book Depository at the time of the shooting. This is certainly not true. A fuzzy photo shows Billy Lovelady standing in front of the building, but most members of the “general public” don’t know that. In a fuzzy photo, Lovelady looks similar to Oswald.
In 1967 Josiah Thompson published a photo of Lovelady, alongside a photo of the fuzzy photo, and it is obvious that it is Lovelady in the fuzzy photo. Michael has a clever way of promoting “conspiracy” stories in, as you said, an “entertaining” way. But I’m an historical researcher and a journalist. I want to know why all his documents posted above have the same gray background and similar styles and typestyles. This is very unusual, since all the documents (reportedly) came from different sources. Also, check out these links.........
When someone publishes a whole lot of anti-American government propaganda, with one overriding theme – the U.S. government sucks – I like to check that guy out. I’ve got some Communists books in my collection of propaganda books that have the very same theme. I’m not saying he’s a Communist. I think he’s more like an Oliver Stone.
From the Joe Harp statement:
The devices were...the size of round 5 gallon drums.
I remember this being reported where witnesses said they saw
men delivering drums to different floors before the explosion.
It's www.whatreallyhappened.com
. I want to know why all his documents posted above have the same gray background and similar styles and typestyles.
I noticed that too when I originally went to his site and looked at the documents. The U-Haul truck picture also wasn't convincing to me. I live close to a military base, and I've seen U-Haul trucks there plenty of times. I guess the Government doesn't have enough trucks.
In your statement about your qualification as a "long-time" researcher of documents, the expression "long-time" means precisely what? 2 days? 2 weeks? 2 months? 2 years? 2 decades? More than that?
About 35 years, with several national credits in a few books, science journals, television networks, and one Presidential Library.
In the links below, compare the three documents I posted in a JFK thread. Note how different they are, even though all three are black and white and copied by the same scanner. In my opinion, Michael’s documents are too similar to be separate and distinct pages from different people, agencies, sources, etc. Generally, several documents in a miscellaneous group like this will show some signs of being photocopied multiple times, but his don’t.
It’s possible they’ve all been retyped and reformatted, since only a very few similar typestyles are represented. But they don’t look like totally separate documents from different sources to me. That’s why I asked Michael to explain to me why they are so similar.
Examples of miscellaneous separate and distinct document, as run through he same scanner......
I live close to a military base, and I've seen U-Haul trucks there plenty of times. I guess the Government doesn't have enough trucks.
LOL! Well, you know, there could be a sinister reason for that! It could be that the military is planning other bombings around the country. You’d better stay out of federal buildings!
On the other hand, I would think that if the military planned to use that particular Ryder in the most sinister anti-citizen government plot of the 20th Century, they could have at least parked it indoors somewhere.
Say, didn’t the State of Florida rent a Ryder truck to carry all those ballots up to Judge Sauls?
One thing I noticed when I subscribed to the Soviet propaganda magazine, New Times, for about 6 years, back in the ‘80s, was that they used every major U.S. disaster as a propaganda tool. Everything was a “CIA plot” to them. Plane crashes, car wrecks involving notable people, etc. In fact, the Russians invented this modern anti-U.S.-government “conspiracy” craze. Back in the ‘50s, when I was growing up, if anyone said the word “conspiracy”, it always meant some branch of the “Great Communist Conspiracy”. The Russians got damn tired of that! So they co-opted the word “conspiracy” and began to use it against us.
NO CRUDE, SLOW-BURNING ANFO BOMB COULD EVER DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE TO STEEL-REINFORCED CONCRETE COLUMNS!
I won't/can't argue that...I was referring to horizontal re-bar @ the floors and beams, not the columns...of course if the columns were blown out there wouldn't be a lot of steel left to see.
This would explain why I didn't see any re-bar:
The north side of the remaining structure had been torn apart when the building fell, tearing reinforcing steel out of its confinement from underneath the remaining slabs and leaving concrete pieces hanging on reinforcement steel on all floors.
Here are a lot of photos taken of the building right after the explosion.......
Thanks for posting the Grand Jury's findings...you've added credibility to the old "ham sandwich" saying.
Because _Jim IS A government shill. It's only an insult if it's not true. And his posts are the evidence. Search.
But then.... You've got a good track record of defending almost every government action too...
The important point about the Ryder truck photo.... That barrier around it is designed to make it invisible at ground level. Which means to hide it from observation. They don't do that with moving trucks.
The only reason that picture even exists, if I recall correctly, is that an amateur pilot just happened to be curious...and had his camera.
Hey _Fed.
Quit spamming this thread, creep.
Jim Rob: Michael Rivero is attempting to have a discussion about this issue and _Fed seems to think its funny to spam the thread up. While I don't think banning is the answer, because it is important to know what the Feds think, could you maybe advise those who post on the government payroll to please not regurgitate reams of documents in the effort to squelch conversation?
You make a 'he said he did it, therefore he is guilty, therefore more knowledge is pointless" arguement.
No, that is not the argument I am making. I attempted to discuss that more information may yield the same conclusion or provide further validity of the first conclusion Sigh.... Please be precise in what you say. As stated before, there are lives at stake here.
And that's why you're doomed.
Doomed? No.I'm not sure what you are using to make that claim. Have seen an interesting theme. If someone discusses information that may cast a different opinion or cause folks to consider conclusions counter to some in this matter, they are often called a shill or trying to spread disinformation. Speaking for myself, I do know there are some real questions that remain to be answered. But it's too bad when the folks that are often the most vocal and passionate about the OKC matter, start the flaming when some take a position counter or different than theirs. And that's just not unfortunate, that is hypocrisy.
I wouldn't get too 'fussed over 'ol "Jim," Mike.
Since his main ploy is just throwing Grand Jury documents at you (& what a Grand Jury "comes up with" is controlled by the info fed to it by the prosecutors--who have now been shown to have blatantly witheld data from the GJ).
Garbage in--Garbage out (sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it?)
Doc
Fixed?
My point was that there is NO WAY they can control ALL of the media, American and foreign, ALL the time.
So what?
They don't have to.
Consider the '96 election, the Chinese money - Clinton connection, Bob Dole saying "Where's the outrage?" Clinton won anyway becauswe the major media played the story down. They didn't have to keep it out of "fringe" sources, they didn't even have to keep the facts out of the major papers, just treat it like is was no big deal.
So long as you can get the New York Times, Washinton Post, CNN and network news to say "move along, there's nothing to see here," you've won.
You do not need total control of all media, just sufficient control of enough media to fool enough of the people enough of the time.
Mike, maybe you can clear this up for me. Back in the summer of 1995, I definitely recall a loud but brief flap in the news about a fellow named Dan Spiegelman.
Spiegelman was a jewel smuggler and art thief who was busted by Dutch police in Amsterdam that summer after trying to sell some $1 million in rare US historical documents he had previously stolen from the Columbia U. rare book museum.
Janet Reno made a big deal about extraditing Spiegelman in connection with the OKC bombing, and badgered the Dutch about speeding up Spiegelman's extradition, even trying to pressure the Dutch Foreign Ministry to hold the extradition hearings in secret, which they refused to do.
Spiegelman was finally returned to the US and convicted of the Columbia U. thefts and that was the last heard of him. Nothing else about him and any OKC connection. Do you know any more about this?
Color correct.
But then.... You've got a good track record of defending almost every government action too...
No, that’s not true. However, I do tend to defend our “government” over the Russian, old Soviet, and Chinese governments, and I also recognize our “government” as many different entities and agencies. It’s certainly not monolithic. The people who originally brought you the concept that our “government” is monolithic and is only one single entity, were the Soviet Communists. I think Michael has been one of their propaganda victims.
I was posting some real Soviet documents over on one of my JFK threads, when Michael came on and started calling me a liar. He spammed up my threads with his phony “conspiracy” junk. I posted real original Soviet documents, from the original sources, but Michael’s documents look phony to me. They all look like they originated on the same word processor. They all look like they are of exactly the same-generation copies. They are all from the same internet source.
When I posted my document copies, I told people where they could go look them up in libraries, to confirm that I was telling the truth about them. When I talked of “audio tapes”, I actually produced the audio tapes and I sent copies to fellow FReepers. FReeper mlo, who I never met before, posted two of the tapes on his internet website for all to hear. Michael talks about audio tapes, but he provides no means for us to actually hear them.
I don’t know if _Jim is a “government shill” or not, but I seriously doubt it. I know a number of patriotic Americans who get fed up with reading leftist, Marxist, and Communist anti-U.S.-government propaganda over and over again on the internet. Maybe _Jim’s an old WW II vet, fed up with a lifetime of hearing anti-U.S. Communist propaganda. Maybe he’s a VFW member who can’t stand leftists. Maybe he’s a cop who can’t stand anti-government hippies and liberals.
That barrier around it [the Ryder truck] is designed to make it invisible at ground level
Duuuuuh! Yet the military let anyone in a light aircraft fly over their base and photograph it?
Down at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, when the Army built an exact duplicate of Manuel Noriega’s home, in preparation for the raid on Panama several years ago, they built it under tall pine trees so it couldn’t be photographed from the air, and there have always been severe restrictions against civilian aircraft flying over Camp Shelby.
You and Michael are talking about paranoia tin-foil hat stuff. If there were really a massive series of government conspiracies designed to murder thousands of American citizens in many on-going operations, Michael would have disappeared years ago.
Hey _Fed.
Quit spamming this thread, creep.
Jim Robinson has said NO PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST FELLOW FREEPERS, and I agree with him. If we want to post our “conspiracy” or “non-conspiracy” theories on this board, I think we should be prepared for legitimate critiques of our work, but for a bunch of leftists to start calling conservative people and critics of leftist anti-American propaganda “creeps” is just too much of a personal attack, in my humble opinion.
If you go to Rivero’s website, click on the JFK “conspiracy” section, then click on “CLICK FOR HCSA EVIDENCE – WAVE FORMAT”, you will hear a sound recording of 4 gunshots. Rivero says, “This was the evidence which led the House Select Committee on Assassinations to conclude that there had indeed been a conspiracy in the murder of John Kennedy. But he’s tricking his readers. Those four gunshots he plays on his website were recorded in 1978 during the HSCA test firings in Dealey Plaza. You can read that information in several links I provided in my JFK threads. Those gunshots were edited together by one of the House Committee sound labs and presented to a gullible public as if they were recorded in 1963. Ask mlo. I sent him complete documentation about the phony gunshot sounds, including a video of Robert Blakey appearing on an NBC program admitting that the shots were recorded in 1978.
Go to Rivero’s website and click on “CLICK FOR OSWALD’S VOICE” and you will hear Oswald denying his guilt. But go to my JFK threads and click on the following link, and you will hear a rare recording of Oswald explaining his anti-government, anti-CIA, and pro-Marxist beliefs, three months before the assassination. The recording was provided by me, and the link is provided by fellow FReeper mlo. When you hear the recording, you might notice that Rivero has the same anti-government and anti-CIA attitude that Oswald had in 1963.
Go to Rivero’s link titled “PHOTOS FROM POST MAGAZINE” and see his propaganda about “Oswald in the doorway”. Note that Rivero doesn’t show a clear picture of Billy Lovelady, and he tries to claim that Lovelady was Oswald. Now go to my link below and see pictures of Lovelady in the fuzzy photo and in a clear photo. The guy in the doorway is obviously Lovelady, not Oswald. My link is a copy from a page from “Six Seconds in Dallas”, published in 1967. The photo sequence shows (top to bottom) Oswald, fuzzy Lovelady, clear Lovelady..........
Michael Rivero’s website is filled with PHONY “conspiracy” junk that can easily be disproved by any legitimate investigator who is willing to take the time to expose his scams. You shouldn’t be so darned gullible and trusting of “conspiracy” stuff that any amateur leftist “investigator” and phony anti-American propaganda artist puts on the internet.
We’ve got a bunch of problems in America today. One of the problems is too much multi-government control over our daily lives and manipulation of public opinion, and another problem is too much anti-American and anti-government leftist, Marxist, and Communist propaganda. Trying to find out which is which can sometimes be very difficult.
bold off
bold off
Well, Mike, based on the Fed flunkies that have shown up to discredit you, it sounds like you may be close to target judged by the amount of flak you are receiving.
What is the government trying to cover up? Complicity on the part of the Feds? Very suspicious that the the ATF were NOT in the building when the blast happened.
Also, the recent news of unreleased docs....was this done by an insider?
Wanna bet that the McVeigh execution would have proceeded under a Gore administration (if he successully stole the election?)
In any event, this is a black eye for Director Freeh. Under his leadership (and Reno), his organization looks like the "Keystone Kops". It is time for new blood, a clean, bright-faced conservative to take his place...
Guess again; don't know about _Jim, but Fred25 is right on target. Whenever Rivero is questioned, the first word that comes out is "shill". I've known Rivero longer than most, perhaps all of you, and I can tell you that Fred25 has hit a home run--try to learn something from him.
Respond to the claims made by Mike. They are very good questions. Can you respond. You seem to know so much.
Thanks.
Why doesn't the news media report? Are you a child? Come on, the news media is not going to report government involvement in terrorism, they're not. The news media sees itself as the defender of the centralized state. The more power that state has, the happier they are. They do not report anything that conflicts with the vision of expanding that political power. Now you know.
You shouldn’t be so darned gullible and trusting of “conspiracy” stuff that any amateur leftist “investigator” and phony anti-American propaganda artist puts on the internet.
Freddy has spoken. It sounds as if HE is the true expert. He has quickly identified Michael R. as an "amateur LEFTIST investigator (the worst type I might add). In addition, Mike has spread phony anti-American proganda on the internet.
Freddy, you must be an expert. Why? Your buddy Katze told me so. BWAAHAAHAAHAAAHAAA! Katze and Freddy. Free Republics TRUE Investigative reporters.
By the way, who are you guys? You are not in the phone book?
I have my own theories about several issues, but since I can't prove them, I'm not too vocal about it.
About his "claims", I can't respond, since I do not waste my time reading him any longer, tho' I did, some years ago. He tells you what you want to hear, nothing more. I've been there, and see no need to waste my time with propaganda from this Clinton supporter. Call me a "shill" if you like.;-)
Fred25 is doing a much better job than I, so I leave the facts to him.
Now, aside from the Rivero topic, take a look at a few paragraphs from a Communist book published in 1976 by Vitaly Petrusenko, an anti-American Soviet propaganda artist. After the Watergate scandal was able to bring down President Nixon, the Soviets (the KGB included) began a campaign of trying to turn many American leftists and Marxists into “investigative journalists”. The KGB was so please with the independent liberal/leftist work and success of Woodward and Bernstein, they decided to try to inspire thousands of young American leftists to become “investigators”, who could dig up dirt about the American way of life, and about our government. (Bernstein wrote a book in the late 1970s, admitting that he had grown up in a Communist family. He said his parents had been CPUSA members in the 1950s, and he said when he was a kid, he learned to hate and even fear President Eisenhower and Vice President Nixon.)
In the 1970s and ‘80s, other books were published by the Soviets, in the English language, for distribution in America, that detailed how American leftists could “investigate” all sorts of capitalist and U.S. government “crimes against humanity” and feed that propaganda to the mainstream American media. The result of this Soviet project was a big expansion in the number of freelance leftist “investigative journalists” in America in the 1980s and ‘90s. The now-booming “conspiracy” propaganda industry is partly a result of that Soviet project.
Click on the link below and read a few paragraphs to see what Petrusenko (and a leftist professor at U.C. Berkeley) suggested that American leftist freelance “investigators” cover in the future, as some of their investigative “conspiracy” topics. Conspiracy propaganda doesn’t have to be accurate..... it only has to be believable to a large number of gullible people.
I want to make it clear that I’m NOT accusing Mr. Rivero of being a Communist. Many different types of people, including conservatives and Republicans, can fall for clever Communist propaganda. There are probably many young conservative and Libertarian freelance “investigators” in America today who would be shocked to learn the Soviet origins of some of their own investigative material. I think Mr. Rivero is more of a Jim Marrs type of “conspiracy buff” and an Oliver Stone type of anti-government person; more or less an independent and mostly-liberal anti-government type of person.
bold off again?
trying again!
I never heard of Katze before in my life. I never heard of _Jim before a few weeks ago.
I can’t find you in the phone book either.
Until the pro-government extremists and the pro-government propagandists in the media grapple with the fact that the government knew about the OKC bombing before it happened, they are worthless. Tell us how they could know about it ahead of time and do nothing to stop it.
What's more, we have a pattern of FBI foreknowledge of terror bombings. They knew all about the World Trade bombing ahead of time. In fact, the FBI insisted on using explosives instead of substituting a harmless powder.
Who in the FBI was involved in these terrorist bombings? Why are they not under investigation, arrest, indictment, trial, conviction and executed? Why is no Federal Law Enforcement (that's a joke) ever indicted for the crimes they commit? Why do they remain anonymous and go on to commit further crimes? Why does no one in Congress speak out?
katze's been here (FR) a long time, even before we were required to register. I've been on the Internet since 1994. I'm a retired fed employee, but only a cost analyst, nothing glamorous. And, I haven't heard of Fred25 until late last night.
Hi Mike, listen, you need to send a post to Big JimRob and ask him to delete post #48 and #54. It is apparent that Underscore Jim is trying to bulk up this thread so no one can open it.
By the way is underscore jim a member of FR's "we know what's right" committee?
By the way, who are you guys? You are not in the phone book?
173 Posted on 05/12/2001 07:08:06 PDT by WeThePeople...
See my response to Fred25--I'm not his buddy, but feel I'd be in far better company. You've been had, live with it.
I'm in the phone book, but you have no need to call me. ;-)
I don't want to quarrel with you, but I believe you could learn facts from someone besides Michael Rivero, who is indeed a "leftist", voted for Clinton twice, and claims he changed party affiliation sometime after Nov '96. Think about it.
"Government shill" is an attempt at a factual statement, based on experience, not a personal attack. Ol' underscoreJim should identify, who he is working for and why.
Thank you sir. I have spread your info to as many people as I can. Have to go now I am sick ....My god man how low will they go?
send a post to Big JimRob and ask him to delete post #48 and #54
Agree, agree! My old kluge took 3 tries to load this & it takes forever anyhow! Jettison that trash!
The Congress has passed a law making it a crime for a citizen to lie to a Federal Agent. It is not a crime for a Federal Agent to lie to a citizen. What more does one really need to know to understand, who is the master and who is the slave?
"Why would only one guy in the entire building feel the “shake” and get under his desk? Why wouldn’t others feel the building “shake” and think there was an earthquake going on?"
That guy was from California, the rest of the Okies never felt an earthquake before. (Wildassguess)
I’m interested in your term “government involvement in terrorism” regarding the U.S. government. This concept began to be promoted in the early years of the Reagan Administration, by Soviet propagandists. They got fed up with hearing the Reagan Administration talk about “international Communist terrorism”, and so they decided to turn the “terrorism” word around on us Americans and our own government agencies, especially the CIA.
The link blow shows the cover of an anti-American propaganda book that was published in Moscow in 1983. Here is some text from that book......
----------------------
In choosing the moment to start the attack [President Ronald Reagan’s attack on Communism] , the campaign's organizers paid due regard to American and world public opinion. At that time terrorist acts by the ultra-right and ultra- left elements were shaking Western Europe, especially Italy, and evoking widespread condemnation. That was when US statesmen and the vast propaganda machine of the West tried to blame it all on "Reds". The battered bug- bear of "worldwide communist conspiracy" and the sinister "long arm of Moscow" was dragged out into the open again, after so many times since October 1917.
The Soviet Union and other socialist countries were alleged to be the "behind-the-scenes manipulators" of virtually all terrorist groups, including the anarchist West German Baader- Meinhof gang of "urban guerrillas" and the Italian Red Brigades. Some US newspapers even hastened to state that the attempted assassination of the Pope by a Turkish neo- fascist was "in the interests of Moscow".
The Soviet Union declared, for all to hear, that it condemned in principle all terrorist acts which disrupted diplomatic activities, international transport ties and the normal conduct of international contacts and meetings, that it opposed acts of violence which served no positive purpose and entailed loss of life. But Western propaganda, usually quite vociferous, either hushes up or distorts this statement and keeps trying to brainwash millions into believing that the militant communist ideology is by its nature a "philosophy of terrorism ", that the Bolsheviks came to power only thanks to terrorism, that the Soviets merely pay lip service to condemnations of terrorism because they want to preserve detente at any cost - it is to their advantage (is detente not to the advantage of other nations? ). No proof is cited, but that is easily explained too: Moscow is devious, it operates in secret and covers up its tracks with great skill.
------------------
And then the rest of this Soviet propaganda book goes on to explain that it is actually the CIA that is behind all acts of “international terrorism”. And we can read that kind of leftist propaganda on many internet websites today.
Go see how some Libertarians jammed up my JFK threads with photos of clowns and cartoons of space aliens.
Maybe it’s time to start Thread Two on this topic. I’d rather see a Thread 2 than censorship of certain posts that you don’t like.
You are right about the dead nuts. At least the nuts part on 800.
However, in spite of all the evidence before us we cannot finally put closure to the question of the existence of a John Doe II. We are encouraged that the FBI continues to have an agent assigned full-time to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing
168 people are dead and hundreds were injured and they got one FBI guy assigned to investigate for John Doe II? This is F@#king pitiful.
Did you miss this?
The FBI expended over a million man-hours and spent millions of dollars tracking John Doe II and Middle Eastern connection leads and interviewing the people who called in the reports.
LOL! Michael Rivero has turned up on another thread, posting some more of his propaganda. I wish he would come back here and answer some of my questions.
CONTINUING INVESTIGATION OF MICHAEL RIVERO AND HIS PROPAGANDA
I look at the evidence. If Soviet propagandists are correct, then they're correct. Why don't you try looking at the evidence? Here's a start, the FBI and the BATF knew about the bombing ahead of time. Two, the ANFO truck bomb could not have brought down the Murrah building alone. What do you make of this? Soviet propaganda? Psst, the OKC bombing was in 1995, the Soviet Union imploded in 1991.
Those are vital questions that must be answered, but until someone important starts asking them, they never will be. This is one reason that some of us consider some public figures to be less than conservative. They still can't comprehend that these are valid questions in need of answers.
I look at the evidence. If Soviet propagandists are correct, then they're correct.
Yeah, but if they aren’t, they aren’t. I’ve been looking at the so-called “evidence” for years, and I’ve found it to be filled with hoaxes. Ok, so maybe the CIA helped get the Shaw of Iran into power in 1954, and they’ve been fighting Commies in Latin America. So?
Why don't you try looking at the evidence? Here's a start, the FBI and the BATF knew about the bombing ahead of time.
How do you know that? Certainly you don’t trust any of Rivero’s claims. Give me some solid evidence, and I’ll examine it.
Two, the ANFO truck bomb could not have brought down the Murrah building alone.
Why not? Carefully explain to me why the front half of the building would not collapse, once the front lower horizontal concrete beam was blown off the front pillars. It looks to me like the building basically collapsed, rather than being “blown up”, after the beam shifted, as a result of the initial explosion.
Psst, the OKC bombing was in 1995, the Soviet Union imploded in 1991.
Leaving in its wake thousands of brainwashed leftist “conspiracy buffs” in America.
Why did Rivero suddenly disappear from this thread? Why doesn’t he answer my questions? I answered his questions on my JFK threads. It’s easier for him to produce propaganda than for him to try to back it up with real facts.
You said......
That guy was from California, the rest of the Okies never felt an earthquake before. (Wildassguess)
“Wildassguess”? LOL! Well, at least you seem to be much more honest than Rivero!
"Why did Rivero suddenly disappear from this thread? "
I have to work for a living. I cannot sit and post 24/7 the way the paid shills do.
"Carefully explain to me why the front half of the building would not collapse, once the front lower horizontal concrete beam was blown off the front pillars. It looks to me like the building basically collapsed, rather than being “blown up”, after the beam shifted, as a result of the initial explosion."
You are not an expert. What marks you as a shill is that experts like General Partin and the Armament Directorate, Wright Laboratory at Eglin Air Force Base have concluded based on their expertise and actual experiments, that the ANFO could not have brought down the building. The burden of proof is on you to prove that these experts are all wrong and you, all by yourself, without actually having been there to see the explosions, are right. That's a tall order.
What makes it harder is that witnesses (including one on FOX yesterday) described a distinct shake, and a loud report which preceded the actual truck bomb by several seconds. This matches the impulse which preceded the truck bomb blast by 4.2 seconds recorded on two seperate audio tapes.
So, let's see you back up your assertion that all these witnesses are wrong, all these pieces of evidence are wrong, all these experts are wrong, and that you, without actually even being there, are able to prove there was only one bomb.
Not excuses, not "maybe", not "could have been", or "may have been", let's see you PROVE your assertion that there were no other bombs used at the Murrah Building.
And if (I mean WHEN) you cannot, then we'll know that you and your noise are just more of the FBI's COINTELPRO bovine excrement.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Click for full size document.
Cointelpro Revisited -
Spying & Disruption
By Brian Glick
author of War at Home, South End Press
A History To Learn From-
What Was Cointelpro?
"COINTELPRO" was the FBI's secret program to undermine the popular
upsurge which swept the country during the 1960s. Though the name
stands for "Counterintelligence Program," the targets were not enemy
spies. The FBI set out to eliminate "radical" political opposition
inside the US. When traditional modes of repression (exposure, blatant
harassment, and prosecution for political crimes) failed to counter
the growing insurgency, and even helped to fuel it, the Bureau took
the law into its own hands and secretly used fraud and force to
sabotage constitutionally-protected political activity. Its methods
ranged far beyond surveillance, and amounted to a domestic version of
the covert action for which the CIA has become infamous throughout the
world.
How Do We Know About It?
COINTELPRO was discovered in March, 1971, when secret files were
removed from an FBI office and released to news media. Freedom of
Information requests, lawsuits, and former agents' public confessions
deepened the exposure until a major scandal loomed. To control the
damage and re-establish government legitimacy in the wake of Vietnam
and Watergate, Congress and the courts compelled the FBI to reveal
part of what it had done and to promise it would not do it again . . .
How Did It Work?
The FBI secretly instructed its field offices to propose schemes to
"misdirect, discredit, disrupt and otherwise neutralize "specific
individuals and groups. Close coordination with local police and
prosecutors was encouraged. Final authority rested with top FBI
officials in Washington, who demanded assurance that "there is no
possibility of embarrassment to the Bureau." More than 2000 individual
actions were officially approved. The documents reveal three types of
methods:
1. Infiltration: Agents and informers did not merely spy on political
activists. Their main function was to discredit and disrupt. Various
means to this end are analyzed below.
2. Other forms of deception: The FBI and police also waged
psychological warfare from the outside -- through bogus publications,
forged correspondence, anonymous letters and telephone calls, and
similar forms of deceit.
3. Harassment, intimidation and violence: Eviction, job loss,
break-ins, vandalism, grand jury subpoenas, false arrests, frame-ups,
and physical violence were threatened, instigated or directly
employed, in an effort to frighten activists and disrupt their
movements. Government agents either concealed their involvement or
fabricated a legal pretext. In the case of the Black and Native
American movements, these assaults -- including outright political
assassinations -- were so extensive and vicious that they amounted to
terrorism on the part of the government.
Who Were The Main Targets?
The most intense operations were directed against the Black movement,
particularly the Black Panther Party. This resulted from FBI and
police racism, the Black community's lack of material resources for
fighting back, and the tendency of the media -- and whites in general
-- to ignore or tolerate attacks on Black groups. It also reflected
government and corporate fear of the Black movement because of its
militance, its broad domestic base and international support, and its
historic role in galvanizing the entire Sixties' upsurge. Many other
activists who organized against US intervention abroad or for racial,
gender or class justice at home also came under covert attack. The
targets were in no way limited to those who used physical force or
took up arms. Martin Luther King, David Dellinger, Phillip Berrigan
and other leading pacifists were high on the list, as were projects
directly protected by the Bill of Rights, such as alternative
newspapers.
The Black Panthers came under attack at a time when their work
featured free food and health care and community control of schools
and police, and when they carried guns only for deterrent and symbolic
purposes. It was the terrorism of the FBI and police that eventually
provoked the Panthers to retaliate with the armed actions that later
were cited to justify their repression.
Ultimately the FBI disclosed six official counterintelligence
programs:
Communist Party-USA (1956-71); "Groups Seeking Independence for Puerto
Rico" (1960-71); Socialist Workers Party (1961-71); "White Hate
Groups" (1964-71); "Black Nationalist Hate Groups" (1967-71); and "New
Left" (1968- 71). The latter operations hit anti-war, student, and
feminist groups. The "Black Nationalist" caption actually encompassed
Martin Luther King and most of the civil rights and Black Power
movements. The "white hate" program functioned mainly as a cover for
covert aid to the KKK and similar right-wing vigilantes, who were
given funds and information, so long as they confined their attacks to
COINTELPRO targets. FBI documents also reveal covert action against
Native American, Chicano, Phillipine, Arab-American, and other
activists, apparently without formal Counterintelligence programs.
What Effect Did It Have?
COINTELPRO's impact is difficult to fully assess since we do not know
the entire scope of what was done (especially against such pivotal
targets as Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, SNCC and SDS), and we have
no generally accepted analysis of the Sixties. It is clear, however,
that:
- COINTELPRO distorted the public's view of radical groups in a way
that helped to isolate them and to legitimize open political
repression.
- It reinforced and exacerbated the weaknesses of these groups, making
it very difficult for the inexperienced activists of the Sixties to
learn from their mistakes and build solid, durable organizations.
- Its violent assaults and covert manipulation eventually helped to
push some of the most committed and experienced groups to withdraw
from grass-roots organizing and to substitute armed actions which
isolated them and deprived the movement of much of its leadership.
- COINTELPRO often convinced its victims to blame themselves and each
other for the problems it created, leaving a legacy of cynicism and
despair that persists today.
- By operating covertly, the FBI and police were able to severely
weaken domestic political opposition without shaking the conviction of
most US people that they live in a democracy, with free speech and the
rule of law.
_________________
For more information on FBI COINTELPRO operations, see:
Ward Churchill and Jim Vander Wall, Agents of Repression: The FBI's
Secret Wars Against the Black Panther Party and the American Indian
Movement, 1990, South End Press, Boston
Eds. Jim Fletcher, Tanaquil Jones, & Sylvere Lotringer, Still Black,
Still Strong: Survivors of the War Against Black Revolutionaries,
1993, Semiotext(e), New York
Brian Glick, War At Home: Covert Action Against U.S. Activists and
What We Can Do About It, 1989, South End Press, Boston
#192 He's a busy fellow. ;-) He has used more FR bandwidth with those dubious testimonials than is normally used in 12 hrs. I still don't know what to make of that McDonald's shot of McVeigh--where did that come from? Rivero is great checking other's websites, but can't figure where this one came from.
"I have to work for a living. I cannot sit and post 24/7 the way the paid shills do."
Would 'ya mind divulging the "shill" names? You do this so often, I lose track of those, other than me, that you've determined to be "shills".
Funny, coming from a Democrat who voted for Clinton, not once, but twice.
Seems Fred25 and _Jim sorta have you on the run--nothing new to you, however. :-)
The burden of proof is on you............
I saw architectural engineers explain the situation on the Discovery Channel, in a well illustrated and documented program. They said that when the tenuous position of the large long bottom front horizontal concrete support beam was shifted off of several of the front pillars, as a result of the explosion, that allowed the building to collapse downward. So most of the front half of the building was NOT “blown up”, it merely collapsed, the very same way some buildings collapse during earthquakes, while buildings next door to them do not. I’ve seen collapsed buildings after earthquakes in California. When their main support beams are shifted slightly, they collapse. They act very much like that Oakland freeway that collapsed during that Bay Area earthquake.
The obvious “flaws” in the building design was having that one front beam support too much of the weight of the building, without being firmly anchored down to the support pillars, and also the problem caused by allowing a parking and loading zone in front of the federal building, so close to that main support beam. You can bet that that type of design will never be used in federal buildings again.
(including one on FOX yesterday)
It’s nonsense to say that one witness heard a pre-explosion and a shaking, while all the other people in the building did not.
all these witnesses
What “witnesses”? So far you only mentioned the guy who allegedly felt the “quake” and crawled under his desk. Where is his testimony? Show me some documentation.
And why do all your “documents” posted up above look alike, as if they were all typed on the same computer?
without actually even being there, are able to prove there was only one bomb.
Well, actually, I’m not trying to claim there was only one bomb, because I haven’t studied this case in great detail. I’m trying to show that YOU haven’t proven anything at all with your “conspiracy” hoax material.
Tell me, on your website, why did you post a recording of the 1978 HSCA test gunshots, and pretend they were 1963 Dealey Plaza gunshots?
And if (I mean WHEN) you cannot, then we'll know that you and your noise are just more of the FBI's COINTELPRO bovine excrement.
Yeah, well, you are filled with ********, and so is your phony website.
"COINTELPRO" was the FBI's secret program to undermine the popular upsurge which swept the country during the 1960s.
“Popular upsurg”?? Is that what you call an attempt at a Communist/Marxist/Maoist revolution in this country, at a time when Marxists and Communists were blowing up university campus buildings, ROTC buildings, military recruitment offices, and PG&E high-power towers in America, and killing people in the explosions?
David Dellinger, Phillip Berrigan ...Black Panthers”
Leftist anti-Americans at that time. Aren't you old enough to remember the Black Panther slogan, “Off the Pigs!” [Meaning “Kill the Police Officers!”]
Ultimately the FBI disclosed six official counterintelligence programs: Communist Party-USA (1956-71); "Groups Seeking Independence for Puerto Rico" (1960-71); Socialist Workers Party (1961-71); "White Hate Groups" (1964-71); "Black Nationalist Hate Groups" (1967-71); and "New Left" (1968- 71).
Oh, well, let’s not harm the Communist Party-USA or the Socialist Worker’s Party! And let’s be sure to support Hanoi Jane, who was giving aid and comfort to the enemy, while our boys were dying in Vietnam!
Too bad you aren’t a little younger. You could have joined the Marxist revolutionaries back in the ‘60s and killed a few pigs yourself, Comrade.
Who’s paying you now? Russia? China? Or are you just a freelance type of radical leftist?
Much of the stuff you posted from Brian Glick came from the Church Committee hearings that were promoted and sponsored by the Democrats, and some of his article is not accurate. It doesn’t mention the leftist murders, bombings, and riots of that era.
"Would 'ya mind divulging the "shill" names? "
They're the ones standing there with their hair on fire insisting they cannot smell any smoke.
More to the point, they are the ones still citing government reports as factual proof even though those reports, created by investigations which by virtue of not being given all the facts, are now discredited.
They are the ones who, without actually being present in Oklahoma to see what the witnesses saw, still somehow claim to know that the witnesses were all wrong.
They are the ones who are so totally ignorant of the history of COINTELPRO that they post claims about what wonderful people the FBI are.
GREAT MOMENTS IN THE HISTORY OF THE FBI.
"[Your information is] too precise, too complete to be believed. The questionnaire plus the other information you brought spell out in detail exactly where, when, how, and by whom we are to be attacked. If anything, it sounds like a trap."
FBI response to the top British spy, Dusko Popov (code named "Tricycle") on August 10, 1941, dismissing Popov's report of the complete Japanese plan for the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Peal Harbor: The Verdict Of History by Gordon Prange, appendix 7 published in 1986. Based on records from the JOINT CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE on the Investigation of the Pearl Harbor Attack, Nov 15, 1945 to May 31, 1946.
As a casual observer let me say that by attacking Rivero you only strenghten his position. You see Fred, Rivero has compiled a lot of info that originates elsewhere. Instead of trying to shoot him down, you need to shoot down the source.
Otherwise, your bucket has a hole in it, dear Fred.
And, dear Ben, if you believe *anything* on Rivero's site is original and/or investigated by him, I have some land you may be interested in buying, real cheap. I'm not in tandem with Fred25, I just happen to know Rivero--long time, dear Ben, and he isn't what he seems..
"I have my own theories about several issues, but since I can't prove them, I'm not too vocal about it. "
In other words, If I don't respond to someone's questions and allow them to control the discussion, that's a bad thing, but when you are asked a question and duck it, that's okay?
Quite a double standard.
One of the ways shills try to control discussions is to avoid answering any questions while demanding that everyone else answer theirs.
Fred and the rest of the goon squad do nothing but follow me around, and they pointedly ignore the topics of the threads.
Let's take a clear case in point. We see the FBI standing revealed for obstructing justice and withholding evidence. THAT is the issue. It follows from that reality that the government is the proven deceiver in the factual matters relating to the Murrah Bombing.
Normal free thinking citizens would examine this deception and seek to find its implications. Shills would attack anyone who would start with the proven deception by the government and follow it through to its logical consequences with regard to the government's conclusions about whether McVeigh acted alone or not.
I'll respond to any question which clearly seeks to clarify the facts in the matter, and yes I do make mistakes occasionally which I then correct.
The questions which I refuse to address are those whose intent is clearly to divert the topic of a thread into some pointless nitpic. Mostly I refuse to waste my time answering questions which have already been answered many times before, and which are asked again only to waste more time. Case in point when Fred25 demanded I post the audio recordings which captured an impulse 4.2 seconds before the truck bomb blast. They've only been available at my web site for a few years. If Fred were really interested in the data he would already have found them. But Fred's goal isn't facts or truth. He and his associates are here to try to attack anyone who dares suggest that the FBI's criminal withholding of factual evidence in the Murrah Bombing invalidates the government's story, to cause as much noise as possible, to endlessly repeat the government's already discredited conclusions and to hurl insults, some of them erroneous (I am NOT a Clinton supporter, and anyone who has been to my web site knows it).
That the FBI maintains networks of informants among the public is an historical fact. The Congressional hearings into COINTELPRO documented that. That FBI informants were involved with the OK Bombing case is also a fact, documented in court during the Carol Howe trial.
I therefore leave it to the lurkers to decide if those posters who claim to know all the above witnesses to additional bombs are wrong, without actually having been there to se what those witnesses saw, are psychics, or shills. I leave it to the lurkers to decide if those posters who insist that the government's feces are not odoriferous are just crazy, or more of the informants that the Congressional hearings into COINTELPRO confirmed are sent among us, or just idiots with no knowledge of American history. I leave it to the lurkers to decide what motivates any poster who works so hard to ignore the main topic of the thread to drag it off into unimportant nitpic details, then cries and kicks if they are not allowed to control the discussions on their own terms.
Yuo miss the point Mr. Katz. It is not a matter of believing or not believing Rivero. In fact much of what Rivero points out has also been pointed out on Network and Cable News shows. Since Charlie Gibson of ABC raises the question of the extra leg, is he to be demonized along with Rivero?
Once again, you would have a lot more credibility if you addressed the message instead of the messenger.
#200 You appear to believe that most people believe there is no crime, no graft, no murders by govt officials, no drug running, no, no, no.........
Color me an independent thinker, and a part-time skeptic, but not everything that happens is a conspiracy, as you have made a into full-time hobby. Posting lengthy documents of dubious origin, telling people how important you are (remember the more than 1M hits in a month, and I can tell you for sure, calling in to Alan Colmes radio program and talking with him is certainly no feat) does not make it so. Oh hell, I could go on and on, but you're just not worth it--a wanabee investigative reporter/con artist, and you don't even do a good job at that. You waste FR poster's time suggesting "lets all send to O'Reilly", then come up with a story about "no attachments"--they all know you, Rivero, and don't want to be bothered with your "bovine excrement" (your term).
BTW, what happened to all your rants about the Bush family? Wouldn't have anything to do with George W being elected, does it? I don't recall you speaking out against Clinton, either (well, you voted for him twice), so are you a coward to name names when they're in office? Or is it that you figure if you throw enough stuff on the wall, eventually some little piece will stick?
I haven’t studied the OK case enough to be able to say if there was or wasn’t a 2nd bomb. My expertise is in the JFK case, and I see that Rivero’s JFK pages are filled with false information. I’ve asked the guy to tell me the sources of his various OK documents posted up above, but he won’t do it. I want to know why they all look alike, but he won’t say. All of those separate documents, from different and independent sources, should have a different look to them, but they don’t.
His website is filled with typical Communist and leftist propaganda, of the same type I’ve been collecting for the past 20 years. He does just like the Soviet propaganda artists used to do, and just like the modern Marxist and Maoist “revolutionaries” still do. He takes high-profile accidents, terrorist bombings, suicides, and murders, and he tries to turn them ALL into anti-American propaganda, and he uses fake material to do it, such as the 1978 recorded HSCA gunshots, which he insinuates are 1963 Dealey Plaza gunshots, and the fuzzy picture of Billy Lovelady, which he claims is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Do you not understand that the Chi-Coms were able to infiltrate the Democrats, and the old-style Soviet-oriented Communists were able to infiltrate our own liberal media? Why do you think Rivero is begging Fox to notice him? I think he probably works alone, and I think he’s probably an independent leftist, but he is NOT a legitimate “researcher” or “journalist”. He’s a propaganda artist.
" Oh hell, I could go on and on, but you're just not worth it--a wanabee investigative reporter/con artist, and you don't even do a good job at that. "
Still with the personal attacks?
Gee, what with the Associated Press breaking the story that the FBI did indeed know of the witheld documents LAST YEAR, most people interested in the actual facts would be following that thread.
But not you, obviously.
Yuo miss the point Mr. Katz. It is not a matter of believing or not believing Rivero. In fact much of what Rivero points out has also been pointed out on Network and Cable News shows. Since Charlie Gibson of ABC raises the question of the extra leg, is he to be demonized along with Rivero?
Once again, you would have a lot more credibility if you addressed the message instead of the messenger.
204 Posted on 05/12/2001 13:37:39 PDT by Ben Ficklin
Well, dear Ben, I'm Ms katze. And, I would have to ask you, where do you suppose Rivero gets his material? And, I don't "demonize" (if that is what you want to call it) Rivero for his questions--rather his incessant posting of documents of dubious origin (certainly not his origin), and passing much of the material off as his own.
I am not looking to establish credibility with you--I'm like many others here, posting my opinion; in this case, my opinion is you'd be better off listening/reading to what Fred25 has to say--he;s brought up some good questions to Rivero, that haven't been answered. And, no, I'm not in tandem with Fred25, but I'm interested in what he has to say.
Finally, FR deserves better than Rivero's variety of rants.
Still with the personal attacks?
Gee, what with the Associated Press breaking the story that the FBI did indeed know of the witheld documents LAST YEAR, most people interested in the actual facts would be following that thread.
But not you, obviously.
207 Posted on 05/12/2001 13:47:00 PDT by Michael Rivero
My most humble apology. Um, about the "FBI did indeed know", are you suggesting it is my opinion they *didn't* know? Oh my, was it *you* who notified the archivists? LOL
Don't bother answering, unless you want the last word.
"Um, about the "FBI did indeed know", are you suggesting it is my opinion they *didn't* know? "
No. Only that attacking government critics has a higher priority for you than paying attention to the emerging facts.
But, back to the major issue of the day.
The FBI, as an institution, tried to claim that the fact that 3000+ documents were withheld was discovered only a few days ago by an archivist. CBC broke the story just a while ago that the FBI actually knew about the files at least as early as December of last year, and Associated Press as just confirmed.
The FBI is now the proven liar in the case of the Oklahoma City Bombing.
Just like the Tim McVeigh/Nichols bomb...nuclear nut chain reaction that hasn't stopped or ever will---98% hot air, and 1% fact or 2% bs(paranoia)---the bang goes on!!
Gas, dust, powder any combustionable with the right distribution of fuel-air mixture could knock that building down, especially if the design-engineering-construction was faulty(in this case a "faulty" bomb and "faulty" explosion too)!
Most everbody is over-fueled and oxygenated to go off like whislin tea kettle singing some one else's nonsense!
The original source of the fire is what interests me!
Not the chain reaction!
When the government went into Waco knowing the surprise element was gone, and when the government went into Miami when the family on "unwanted" friendly terms settlement---still pursued a deadly force against American patriotic citizens---we shouldn't be distracted from the evil---Reno-clinton-Batf-INS-warmongers on America!--Americans!
Oh yeah, the Chucky son of sam schumer/waters/wrangel crowd too!!
We definitely need a congressional investigation! Now!!
Why are the liberals in Berkeley still applauding Janet Reno---the answer is obvious!
Just like the Tim McVeigh/Nichols bomb...nuclear nut chain reaction that hasn't stopped or ever will---98% hot air, and 1% fact, or 1% or 2% bs(paranoia)---the bang goes on!!
Gas, dust, powder any combustionable with the right distribution of fuel-air mixture could knock that building down, especially if the design-engineering-construction was faulty(in this case a "faulty" bomb and "faulty" explosion too)!
Most everbody is over-fueled and oxygenated to go off like whislin tea kettle singing some one else's nonsense!
The original source of the fire is what interests me!
Not the chain reaction!
When the government went into Waco knowing the surprise element was gone, and when the government went into Miami when the family on "unwanted" friendly terms already settled---still they pursued a deadly force against American patriotic citizens---we shouldn't be distracted from the evil---Reno-clinton-Batf-INS----warmongers on America!--Americans were/are doing!
Oh yeah, the Chucky son of sam schumer/waters/wrangel crowd too!!
We definitely need a congressional investigation! Now!!
Why are the liberals in Berkeley still applauding Janet Reno---the answer is obvious!
BTTT
bttt
bttt
bump
Here's another article on the web which correlates with much of the information here and elsewhere on what is *at the very least* a cover-up if not worse.
My sources in Oklahoma are not favorable towards J.D. Cash so anything connected to him in particular may be problematic.
Inside the New Oklahoma City FBI Documents at the APFN website.
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
bttt
Thanks.
The tinfoil hats are out in force on this thread... lol
bttt
bttt
I noticed that too when I originally went to his site and looked at the documents. The U-Haul truck picture also wasn't
convincing to me. I live close to a military base, and I've seen U-Haul trucks there plenty of times. I guess the Government
doesn't have enough trucks.
I've also seen the commonplace use of U-Haul trucks by the military, including the time leaking HazMat containers [including chemical weapons test samples] were loaded aboard a rental truck and the drums taken to a disused coal mine where they were dumped. The truck was then returned to base and burned in an *accidental fire* and the truck company happily got a new truck out of the insurance settlement.
Sure, I can appreciate the military using a civilian rental to haul the ammonium nitrate and hgydrazine to Camp Gruber from Tinker Air Force Base. I don't believe the airfields around Gruber [at Braggs, Oklahoma] would have handled an aircraft as large as a C130, and there'd have been too many curious eyes about. And an airdrop might have been mistaken for a drug drop, and the local cops might have gotten inquisitive about their percentage.
Wouldn't be from Gamma Chapter by any chance, TKEman?
-archy-/-
BUMP!!!!
Show us where you get this information. Anyone can make this stuff up, can't they?
"Show us where you get this information. Anyone can make this stuff up, can't they?"
The source for all the information is right in the scans. The Oklahoma Highway Patrol, FEMA, etc. The notary seals on the affidavits are easily read. And in any event, the authenticity of the Joe Harp affidavit has been confirmed by a Freeper who knows the man.
You show a real double standard here. I the matter of the Murrah Bombing the FBI is already admited to be lying and concealing facts in the case, yet you are totally unconcerned about those crimes while hurling baseless allegations at anyone who suggests that the FBI is concealing information about additional bombs and additional bombers.
Here's another fact proving there is a cover-up.
The minister who married my wife and I was in OK City at the time of the bombing and volunteered to help. Along with being required to show his ID six times before being allowed to help dig for survivors, he reported that even while the screams of the trapped people could be heard under the rubble, men in suits and ties were taping thin plastic sheeting over portions of the wreckage. The sheeting was too thin to provide any support to the wreckage or stop debris from faling off. he only purpose seemed to be to make sure that certain pieces of the Murrah Building could not be seen or photographed.
In the following photo, one such piece of plastic, shiny and new and free from dust, proving it had to be applied AFTER the bombing, is seen at the far right. Note the ladder leaned up against the flat piece of floor in the foreground to get a sense of the scale of the piece of the building that has been wrapped in plastic.
You show a real double standard here. I(n) the matter of the Murrah Bombing the FBI is already admitted to be lying and concealing facts in the case, yet you are totally unconcerned about those crimes while hurling baseless allegations at anyone who suggests that the FBI is concealing information about additional bombs and additional bombers.
I did not hurl a baseless accusation. I asked for the facts. Is there anything wrong with demanding the direct source of the information. You do have that responsibility, don't you. You can throw around unnamed sources, but that doesn't make you any more credible than CBS.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
[
Top
|
Latest Posts
|
Latest Articles
|
Self Search
|
Add Bookmark
|
Post
|
Abuse
|
Help!
]
FreeRepublic , LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 Forum Version 2.0a Copyright © 1999 Free Republic, LLC |