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"A classified report prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City last April was caused by five separate bombs. The two experts reached the same conclusion for the same technical reasons.
Sources close to the Pentagon study say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot." The multiple bombings have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either Iraqi or Syrian involvement."
See item 19
We know what happened to Colby now, don't we? Arkancide.
OKC Bomb Analysis- Partin is not alone
As I recall, Colby died 4-27-1996 in a canoe accident.The date of the article and the date of his death is interesting.
We know what happened to Colby now, don't we? Arkancide.
More like Mossaudized....
Same thing goes for the OKC bombs, even the IRAQI connection is Mossaud. All trails lead back to these pukes, the real question is who ordered these pukes to do it. Now thats were the investigation gets interesting....
Paging _Jim and Sinkspud and soo many other feds, where have ya'all gone these days... to much truth coming out on OKC you cant handle it all!!! Man i love it when the truth comes out on top, even after all the shizen these idiots have spewed... HappyDays are here again....
Bump
Well, that makes four bombs in the building and the big one outside PLUS the three unexploded bombs found inside.
Who planted all these internal bombs? How come we haven't heard anything about them?
Why would a Middle Eastern faction bomb the Murrah Building in OKC and not claim credit for it?
Why would a Middle Eastern faction bomb the Murrah Building in OKC and not claim credit for it?
I have no idea but I do not recall a Middle Eastern faction taking credit for the World Trade Center bombing.
ANYONE, with a clue about explosives knows that the damage was not done by a truck filled with fertilizer bomb !
One interesting fact remains...why was all the debris hauled away and buried ?
Why did the structural supports show signs of shaped charges (a directional charge)?
a car bomb effect would be largely cancealed out by the vastness of of the parking garage. Unless the explosion was "DIRECTED" much of the impact would be disapated harmlessly to the side. Structurally the building could withstand a sizeable blast in the open garage area, with minimal damage to the upper floors. This is due to the huge concrete support columes remaining "directly untouched". A support say 4 feet thick is not going to be effected by a non-directional blast..chipped some concrete maybe, but no decernable damage.
To bring down the center of the buiding...you must take out the supports structures in the garage parking area. Shaped Charges specifically designed to "cut the supports in two is the ONLY ANSWER. It cannot physically be done by a nondirectional car bomb.
I could give you 20 one lb. sticks of TNT place them 20-30 yrds from a tree with a 24" dia. trunk. Much less strength than a 4' concrete support. Set the 20 sticks off and all you'll have is chipped bark.
Now place 4 1/2lb.(2lbs.) sticks around 1/2 of the tree's truck connect with det-cord...it'll cut the tree in half.
Its not as much about HOW MUCH, as it is about where and how.
bump
Wow...
Does anybody suspect that Clinton/Reno ordered the details to be covered up so that the anti-government tinfoils could get the blame rather than the real villians? For political gain?
Its not as much about HOW MUCH, as it is about where and how.
Well written and a key point.
Does anybody suspect that Clinton/Reno ordered the details to be covered up so that the anti-government tinfoils could get the blame rather than the real villians? For political gain?
I think you nailed it.
Question here: Many of the folks who dismiss the shape charge theory simply claim that the building was built poorly. What about that? Thanks.
I can agree to withholding evidence to further their propoganda, but show me evidence when the claims go as far as to say our own government conspired in the bombing. (I'm not implying you stated that.)
Does anybody suspect that Clinton/Reno ordered the details to be covered up so that the anti-government tinfoils could get the blame rather than the real villians? For political gain?
I remember hearing that the Waco files were kept there too.
I don't know about explosives, but the "Truck Bomb" theory always bothered me for the same reasons you state here..
Controling the shape and direction of an explosion is what makes Guns Shoot and Engines Run..
As powerfull as the explosions that power these devices are, without the combustion chamber to direct the explosion and control it's rate of expansion/dissapation, they would be completely unimpressive.
I just don't see how a single fertilizer bomb caused that much damage in an open garage..
I am not acquainted with the security in that building, but I'd guess it's pretty tight. I could be wrong. If it was even fairly secure, then whoever planted the bombs had to be either government employees, or allowed in by government employees. If security is very lax, it could have been just about anyone.
his status as editor contributes to the credibility of the article.
it's not outside the realm of possibilty that "his status as editor" also contributed to his death.
Because they weren't working for a M.E. country, but were doing black work for the U.S. maybe? A guess on my part, or I should say, a suspicion.
My theory is that they were more happy with the patsy outcome with Tim and Terry. IF they had been held accountable the backlash could have grown out of proportion. IMO somebody missed the child care center. My favorite suspect is still F-troop.
bump
As far as I'm concerned, the jury is out on that one. The report was prepared by a company who later recieved lots of lucrative U.S. government contracts, and endorsed by FEMA--the head of that organization was a major FOB (&H). So do we trust a report like that? I'm not sure I do.
'"A classified report prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City last April was caused by five separate bombs. The two experts reached the same conclusion for the same technical reasons.
'Sources close to the Pentagon study say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot." The multiple bombings have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either Iraqi or Syrian involvement." '
You would think these government idiots would learn some new tricks.
When doubts first surfaced about the "lone assasin" theory of JFK's assasination, news stories suddenly appeared to point the finger of suspicion at a foreign party, Cuba. Yet nobody could explain how Cuba could get POST magazine to print staged fake photos to bolster the "Magic Bullet" theory, or to get Gerald Ford to fictionalize the location of JFK's back wound in the Warren Report.
When the cover-up collapsed around the Vince Foster murder, there was an immediate flood of posts and news stories suggesting that Foster was murdered by the Mossad. Of course, it was never explained how the Mossad was able to sneak into the White House, where Foster was last seen alive, let alone getting him back out either alive or dead (not to mention why they wouldn't wait until Foster was more accessible). Likewise, it was never explained how the Mossad was able to pursuade the FBI to show Lisa Foster a silver colored gun and tell her it was the gun found with her husband's body, when the gun actually found with the body was dark blued steel. Nobody could explain why the Mossad would even bother staging a fake suicide, with escape just a plane flight away.
When it became obvious that the government's "spark in the fuel tank" explanation for the crash of TWA 800 was not able to withstand all the eyewitnesses who had seen a missile hit the plane, news stories and posts sprang up insisting that foreign terrorists had fired the missile everyone had seen hit the plane. Nobody bothered to explain how foreign terrorists could sneak into the middle of an ongoing Navy anti-missile exercise, flip off a missile at the 747, then depart apparently unnoticed by the Navy. Nobody could explain how foreign terrorists could pursuade the NTSB to falsify lab tests and then lie about the results, as it was proven to in court, or pursuade the FBI to remove all of the red residue from the reconstructed wreckage in a failed effort to pretend it never existed.
So here we are. Yet another government cover-up hatched by cold war mental fossils is collapsing under the onslaught of the internet, and what happens? Same-O same-O, we get articles attempting to lay a false trail to a foreign party. Osama Bin Goldstien is worn out as the mandatory boogie-man, so now it's Syria and Iraq.
Except that nobody can explain why foreign terrorists would care if Americans knew about additional bombs in the Murrah Building or not. Nobody can explain how foreign terrorists could pursuade the media to ignore the official documents regarding those additional bombs even if they did care. And nobody can explain why the FBI would work so hard to conceal the existance of and thereby protect, foreign terrorists, unless of course those foreign terrorists were really informants working for the FBI all along (as was the case in the World Trade Center bombing).
I've also seen reports that Gulf War syndrome data was kept there too. I haven't yet tried to verify it.
Do we not have the African Embassy bombs to look to as an example of the damage done to a building by a large external bomb?
The evidence suggests that the other bombs were planted by undercover ATF and FBI agents or informers, who outnumbered the "extremists" they were spying on at Elohim City. Several ATF agents were seen carrying unexploded bombs out of the building after the explosion, although they insisted that they were "practice" weapons and nothing more was said about them. They carted the evidence away and buried it for the same reason that they carried away the evidence at Waco--because it might have revealed too much about FBI and ATF involvement.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the force exerted by an unshaped charge is inversely proportional to the CUBE of the distance, and therefore it is simply impossible for a fertilizer bomb outside the building to have severed three or four columns. That's why there must have been another three or four bombs, presumably strapped to the support columns in the basement. Nothing else could have severed the rebar and pulverized the concrete, which is what brought the building down. And that's why they carted the rubble away so fast and never published any clear pictures of the damage.
Remember that round hole you can see in pictures of the roof of the bunker at Waco? That was done by a shaped charge too, which bent the rebar, and almost certainly it was what killed the children inside. It's not surprising that they wanted to destroy the evidence.
I hate to beat an old drum, but if the Mena Arkansas scandal records were in that building, it's a foregone conclusion.
If that was the case, the Christians In Action would have done the job.
A previous post on another thread alluded to the records being there, but no supporting documentation was cited.
Calling all sleuths.....
but show me evidence when the claims go as far as to say our own government conspired in the bombing.
The most convincing evidence is the length to which the government has gone to cover-up the fact there were multiple bombs in the building. What do they gain by covering up the bombs found inside the building?
Additionally, the feds made no effort to arrest John Doe II and later made up a story that the eyewitness's were mistaken. The The feds fabricated a story about a fertilizer bomb, eventhough they have no scientific evidence of ANFO.
The feds found numerous fingerprints in the Dreamland Motel room McVeigh was in and chose not to run those prints.The list goes on and on.
I suspect the Middle Easterners had nothing to do with. It was a US black ops project for political purposes. They just picked the first dup that wanted to make a statement and assisted him.
With Andy Strassmier fitting the image of John Doe #2, what do you expect??
After the fact innuendo. Who transpired to bomb the building? Who requesitioned supplies? What I ask for was proof, not dought. And all of you are right. This smells to high heaven. Now what about those F-Troops?
You are probably right, but we will never know!
The multiple bombings have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either Iraqi or Syrian involvement."
LOL!
"Do we not have the African Embassy bombs to look to as an example of the damage done to a building by a large external bomb?"
Freeper rdavis84 has posted some excellent comparison pictures of the Khobar Towers vs. the Murrah Building, with good analysis to go with them. Perhaps he will repost them here.
Yet nobody could explain how Cuba could get POST magazine to print staged fake photos to bolster the "Magic Bullet" theory,
Another parallel I find interesting is that in both cases the government/media cover story requires the public to ignore their fundamental understanding of physics. In reply #31 Cicero explains it better than I could in the OKC case(a truck bomb could not do the damage) and in the JFK story we were asked to believe if a man is shot in the back of the head, his head moves backwards and the public bought it.
I know I am off subject, but that parallel has always interested me.
Waco records, Mena records, Gulf War syndrome records--my, that would just about clean house for them, even if only 1/3 of this list were there.
You might find some mind-food to chew on this link (Revealing the truth about OKC/Geoff Metcalf interviews bombing investigator Charles Key). When I said I thought there might be Middle Easterners involved, I didn't mean in an official capacity for their governments. I'm thinking more in terms of ex-Iraqi soldiers now in this country, now employed by one or more of the alphabet agencies, for instance. One such--just for instance, of course--seemed to be involved in some capacity, and was mentioned by KFOR-TV reporter Jayna Davis.
"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the force exerted by an unshaped charge is inversely proportional to the CUBE of the distance, and therefore it is simply impossible for a fertilizer bomb outside the building to have severed three or four columns"
Yes, at any point outside the point charge, the force will decrease by the cube of distance. But reconsider the geometry of the situation. Several buildings in the area, I recall, were closely spaced. Now integrate that force over the same area of the face of the building. We quickly discover that the face of the building will transmit a percentage of these forces into singular structural members of the building.
This doesn't mean it's going to fail, but explosives by intuition doesn't always work so simply.
I recall using shaped charges to blast footings into rock adjacent to a lone wooden bunker in the middle of nowhere, with the intent to leave the existing building intact until the new structure was completed. I ran the calcs to make sure the distance from the wooden structure cube rooted with the blast force was less than the shearing strength of the structural members.
I was mistaken. After popping the charges, I went to the blast area and discovered I had collapsed the entire side of the building because the side absorbed about 1/2 of the full blast force, less densely, but transmitted those forces as shear to the handful of vertical structural members, which were easily sheared.
Think of it another way, concentric spheres indicating the equal force per unit area traveling outwards from the blast. Then consider the vertical structural columns supporting the building. Then consider the magnitude of shear transmitted to those columns and the rate at which the force is applied. By the continuity equation we arrive at the cube root distance variable, but likewise apply the continuity eqn to fit the physical problem, wherein we have a point charge acting on a plane bisecting one of the spheres. The plane absorbs half the force. Now where and what rate is that force transmitted to the structural columns in the way of shear stress.
Additional identification is required to measure the overpressure/aftershock dynamic, gravity caused impulse from falling failed loads, difference in brittle (say glass, versus more elastic steel structural materials transmitting forces, and power observed in distributing the floatsam.
It might be simpler than this once the eqns are laid out and algebraicly manipulated, I suspect it's complex. This is how I would approach the problem.
From this thread with much detail ---- http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3afdd41a2e85.htm
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Background:
The Khobar Towers terrorist bombing on 25 June 1996, a cold-blooded act of murder, was a tragic and costly event of unprecedented magnitude, involving a high degree of sophistication. It was an act of war where terrorists detonated a bomb with an estimated likely yield of more than 20,000 pounds of TNT-equivalent explosives outside the fence of the American occupied sector of Khobar Towers. The explosion killed 19 service members and injured hundreds more. It also injured many Saudi Arabian citizens and third country nationals (TCNs) and severely damaged or destroyed a significant amount of property. This was the second bombing in Saudi Arabia in less than a year, a country where tens of thousands of Americans had lived safely for decades prior to these attacks.
Then this photo of the Murrah Building ----- 4000 pound ANFO bomb ----
Greatly appreciated! Thank you! These pics are really stunning.
Sources close to the Pentagon study say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot." The multiple bombings have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either Iraqi or Syrian involvement."
Oh! Right! It was those damn raghead bastards from eye-rack! Yeah! That's the ticket. It wadn't us here in the guvermint. NO! NO! Not us, Jack!
Wasn't it GHWB that said something along the line of, "If the people knew what we were doing, they'd hang us."? Well, heck, if Bush, Sr. would say that, what could Herr Klink be capable of?
Here's the thread about the Crater that can't be found on the web ---- Missing Crater
I'll find Partin's comments on it.
I have suspected that this was a government "black" operation ordered by politicos. Purpose: to divert attention FROM Klintoon, and his scandals, AND to point a finger at militias and pro-American groups.
An expert on munitions came out after the bombing. His analysis of the damage indicated the same results as this. Additionally, he did a drawing showing WHERE each was placed. He said the entire building didn't come down because of a bad connection, and 2 of the bombs didn't detonate. Those were the ones the "bomb squad" that many of us saw arrive on CNN removed.
There were exercises conducted the week BEFORE the bombing of a terrorist attack almost exactly the same as the Murrah Building Bombing. AND it is fairly common knowledge in OK City that the Feds did not come in to their offices that day.
One other question, the person who called 911 or who called the bomb squad was a specialist in bomb detonations, and defusing of this particular type and was only a block away.
Coincidence? No more likely than getting 5 in a row straight royal flushes in Vegas.
McVeigh is guilty -- of thinking himself so important, and so smart, and so efficient, that the Feds used his arrogance to make him the fall guy. But arrogance and self-importance don't deserve the death penalty. His bomb, in the truck, probably did minimal damage...and possibly minimal to no loss of life. It was OUR Government AGAIN, destroying innocent lives to make a political point. [Klintoon/Reno] McVeigh was a dupe. Just like the drug runners mules. Used by bigger and badder dudes.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if the truth ever really comes out the above scenareo will be very close in fact to what actually occurred.
Poorly built ?
You have no idea how many really extensive inspections a building that size must pass. Next time you go into a big building parking garage look around.
Those concrete poles, the concrete ceiling the concrete walls and foundation structure all steel reinforced and computer designed...all huge.
Think of the size and weight that the building puts on the supports, now think about earthquakes, tornado's and such.
The extra level of strength built in is unbelievable. Concrete is gaged by the ability of its structural strength, a simple core sample would reveal any weakness.
Say a contractor dumped a load of concrete for the forms, maybe $250-$300,000 dollars worth.
Then the inspector comes in and "red tags" the concrete as not being up to specifications. He's toast, he'd have to remove all the defective concrete, pour new concrete, and pay huge penalties for delaying the project...it just doesn't happen.
The cost for doing it right is built right in.
Now when you take into account that the Ryder truck was parked OUTSIDE when it exploded...the chance of it doing that kind of damage drops to ZERO...I'd bet my life on it !
Sorry, it's from the Key interview ----- http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b1a37681cc3.htm
"For example, the FBI claimed the crater – which is an important piece of evidence, especially in determining how big a bomb was used – was 32 feet wide in diameter.
Q: What was the real deal?
A: The reality is it was between 16 and 18 feet in diameter. We've proved that and clearly show that in our report. When they had this FEMA-sponsored group of American Society of Civil Engineers come in and do their report, they wouldn't let them get any closer than 200 feet. And they fed them information, including the 32-foot crater. They said then it was 28 to 32 feet. They fed them the information to produce this report. They didn't let them come on and do a hands-on inspection."
Yes, that entire post is excellent. Maybe you should post a link to it over on the "crater" thread? Some folks might still check in over there. (That was another good thread.)
Your exactly right...the story given to the public defies the law of physics. How far does a bullet shoot if the energy is not directed ? Same principal here.
The chance of the bombing happening the way the government states...is zero. The law of physics can not be amended, a omni-directional burst of energy of known output, cannot destroy steel reinforced concrete. Yes, if you have ENOUGH, explosive power or a small nuke...But this was a Van, with a known amount of explosive power, PARKED OUTSIDE.
Here's another example in WW2, D day those ships firing at the concrete bunkers with 16" shells unless they hit the bunker directly with a time delayed fuse...they just scratched the outside walls. Same with the OK bombing !
Here's one more....you can place a firecracker in your open hand and lite it. The explosion will hurt but there won't be any real damage. Do it with your fist closed and watch your fingers fly...in this case the charge wasn't directional, but the containment was...same thing.
re your pix in # 44: where is the crater?
bump
"re your pix in # 44: where is the crater?"
I've figured it out.
It was like that Rubber Vomit gag. The feds had a big version made and laid it out. It didn't photograph too well, so they rolled it up and buried it with the rest of the evidence.
IMHO, this is TOTAL Bullsh*t.
I'm inclined to believe that the Federal agencies in the building may have had explosives stored for their own uses, and THAT may account for the secondary and tertiary explosions that were heard.
To suggest that it had a Middle Eastern involvement in the plot is NOT worthy of even Michael Rivera.
"re your pix in # 44: where is the crater?"
You'll need to go to the link in #47. There's a photo with plywood on the ground. That's where the rubber vomit ....crater was before it was rolled up and hauled away.
That was all posted around BBQ&Beer Day, so you might not have a clear memory of it :-)
Only an idiot would maintain McVeigh didn't set off a bomb. Even Rivero admits that McVeigh was a perpetrator.
"Who planted all these internal bombs?"
The Severed Leg!!
... and by extrapolation 5 Seperate Bombs caused damage to over 300 buildings in downtown Oklahoma City then ...
... including structural damage to several of those closest to the Murrah bldg ...
Sorry, this doesn't wash with the physical evidence and post mortem analysis of the damage done.
Period.
An expert on munitions came out after the bombing. His analysis of the damage indicated the same results as this. Additionally, he did a drawing showing WHERE each was placed. He said the entire building didn't come down because of a bad connection, and 2 of the bombs didn't detonate. Those were the ones the "bomb squad" that many of us saw arrive on CNN removed.
Yes, I remember it well. I think many of us who don't buy the fed version were watching live news coverage that day. Some people trust their own eyes and ears, even more than Dan Rather.
The link Bomb Damage in reply #6 is a good summary of the work of the expert you mention, if I am not mistaken. Thanks rdavis84.
Why did the structural supports show signs of shaped charges (a directional charge)?
I'm curious. Where is this found?
Let's ignore the other dozens of points that prove that McVeigh has nothing to do with the whole thing.
Let's just stick to this thread.
As this thread clearly shows, there were bombs inside. So what does McVeigh has to do with that ?
I wonder why you say "even" Rivero. Somebody that claims that McVeigh was involved in the bombing, under these
circumstances - what's his purpose ?
Waco records, Mena records, Gulf War syndrome records--my, that would just about clean house for them, even if only 1/3 of this list were there.
What about Resolution Trust Corporation records for the South Central United States? Were they, as I have heard, there???? Anyone know?
Oh that’s nonsense! You didn’t link us to “Strategic Investment" newsletter, you linked us to a crackpot tin-foil hat website. What a bunch of damn idiots!
Here is a direct link to Strategic Investment....
To suggest that it had a Middle Eastern involvement in the plot is NOT worthy of even Michael Rivera
This is the conclusion of a Pentagon study, according to William Colby's Strategic Investment newsletter. Please don't shoot the messenger, contact the Pentagon.
... That's where the rubber vomit ....crater was before it was rolled up and hauled away.
That was all posted around BBQ&Beer Day, so you might not have a clear memory of it :-)
dang! musta had a major blur to have missed the roll up rubber vomit crater gag! makes as much sense as anything.
Oh that’s nonsense! You didn’t link us to “Strategic Investment" newsletter, you linked us to a crackpot tin-foil hat website. What a bunch of damn idiots!
Nice language. You didn't mention the archives are not available, however, please see reply #2 with a link that forever preserves the Strategic Investment newsletter article in the court record. Stategic Investment newsletter online can go away, William Colby can pass, but the article is not leaving the court record.
"Jane C. Graham, a HUD worker injured in the bombing, also clearly felt two distinct blasts. As Graham stated in a videotaped deposition: "I want to specify that the first bomb — the first impact — the first effect, was a waving effect, that you got when the building was moving, you might have maybe felt a little waving, perhaps an earthquake movement, and that lasted for several seconds.
"About 6 or 7 seconds later, a bomb exploded. It was an entirely different sound and thrust. It was like it came up right from the center up. You could feel the building move a little.… But there were two distinct events that occurred. The second blast not only was very, very loud, it was also very powerful. And as I said, I just felt like it was coming straight on up from the center of the building — straight up."[80]
I remember hearing that the Waco files were kept there too.
Did they ever find that metal front door from Mt. Carmel? Was it stored in the Murrah building?
That could certainly have something to do with it. After the bombing the government began to fund studies on how to make their buildings more bomb resistant. It makes perfect Clintonian logic, to cover for your corupt and contributing contractor friends.
Remember the Jocyln Elders scandel when Arky school childern had been all given defective condoms from one company that the Clinton administration was cozy with ? The very same year SBIR sponsered research on methods to detect manufacturing defects in condoms.
Fred25 and _Jim on the same post. I think the relevancy rule may be in play. (relevance = number of debunkers). I remember them well on your posts.
please see reply #2 with a link
Oh, thanks. I didn’t read that far.
............................................... Ok, I read that second link, and this is what I found in reference to the alleged article:
“Letter to Joseph H. Hartzler concerning an article in Strategic Investment magazine which referenced a classified Pentagon study concerning the bombing of the Murrah Building.”
That’s it. Nothing else. This note was about a “letter”. Hearsay, hearsay, hearsay. You still haven’t produced the article.
When you claim to quote something, link us to the original source or at least a legitimate copy of the article, or keep your mouth shut. I’m fed up with internet hoaxes.
Dashjim and Fred 2.5 on the same thread ON A SUNDAY :-)
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b1a37681cc3.htm
"For example, the FBI claimed the crater – which is an important piece of evidence, especially in determining how big a bomb was used – was 32 feet wide in diameter.
Q: What was the real deal?
A: The reality is it was between 16 and 18 feet in diameter. We've proved that and clearly show that in our report. When they had this FEMA-sponsored group of American Society of Civil Engineers come in and do their report, they wouldn't let them get any closer than 200 feet. And they fed them information, including the 32-foot crater. They said then it was 28 to 32 feet. They fed them the information to produce this report. They didn't let them come on and do a hands-on inspection."
Jane C. Graham, a HUD worker injured in the bombing, also clearly felt two distinct blasts
It is easy for me to understand how the debunkers dismiss what I post, but how do these guys ignore the words of a woman that suffered through the blast?
Let's ignore the other dozens of points that prove that McVeigh has nothing to do with the whole thing.
There are NO points that "prove" that McVeigh had nothing to do with the OKC bombing. He even admits that he did it, albeit in a book. Notice, he's never denied what was published in that book.
You're dreaming, my friend.
BTW, why would you choose a nickname of a murderous thug? Or do you believe he's an angel too?
Why would a Middle Eastern faction bomb the Murrah Building in OKC and not claim credit for it?
The entity that benefitted the most from the OKC bombing was Clinton and his/her mafia. Some terrorists blow up the Reichstag and Clinton does them some favors (ie screws Israel).
There are NO points that "prove" that McVeigh had nothing to do with the OKC bombing. He even admits that he did it ...
Mc Veigh thinks he did it. All he did was set off the fertilizer bomb; he didn't destroy the building. McVeigh probably doesn't know about the other bombs. In his deranged mind he's a hero and believes he will end up being a martyr. Meanwhile, the real bombers are free. If it can be shown that the other bombs did most of the damage, it will be very difficult to prove that anyone was actually killed by McVeigh.
When you claim to quote something, link us to the original source or at least a legitimate copy of the article, or keep your mouth shut. I’m fed up with internet hoaxes.
I gave you an exact quote from a specific publication with a specific date for the article. Go get the publication and look it up. There is no internet link for that article, an internet link does not exist. However, the original article is in the court record, see Petition of Writ of Mandamus for the court reference.
While we are on the subject of hoaxes, you posted a fake 4 Ryder truck Camp Gruber photo on this forum and said you would get back to me with your source. I guess I know the source. You also produced faked documents on Michael Rivero's posts.
You are busted Fed 2.5. Thanks for letting me know this is important.
This must be loon bug season.
Revealing the truth about OKC/Geoff Metcalf interviews bombing investigator Charles Key
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Oklahoma City Bombing Cover-Up INFO
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Some terrorists blow up the Reichstag and Clinton does them some favors (ie screws Israel).
Maybe. It seems that the major thing that happened as a result of the bombing was the collapse of the growing public sympathy for the militias. I think it was a black ops mission, myself. There's plenty in Bubba's administration to make that better than a tinfoil hat idea.
bump
Thank you for that link. If there is anyone who has not heard the report recorded in reply #84, please listen to it. It will erase any doubt about the existence of bombs found inside the Murrah building.
It is amazing how fast Fed2.5s,and all the rest flee when hit with a taste of truth like the link in #84.
I gave you an exact quote from a specific publication with a specific date for the article.
Not enough. That was a second-hand quote. Who are the authors? How did they get their hands on a “classified” Pentagon report? Where are the authors today? I want to ask them some questions. Why did they go out of business? Are there crackpots at the Pentagon too? (I know the answer to that last question.)
However, the original article is in the court record, see Petition of Writ of Mandamus for the court reference.
No, that link you gave us only refers to a “letter” about an alleged article. You still haven’t proved that the article actually existed in the first place.
Look, I can go out right now and buy a tabloid newspaper that says the “Pentagon is covering up the existence of space aliens living among us”. But that is not enough “evidence” for me to get excited about.
You know the 4-Ryder truck and the Mickey Mouse documents were jokes. There is no “Mickey Mouse” working for the DOD, as far as I can tell. He works for Disney Studios. You have not proven to me that the 1-Ryder truck photo is not a hoax. You never produced the photographer, the pilot, or any government document containing comments about the photo. The Great Rivero seems to be the original source for the 1-Ryder truck photo and the original source of all the look-alike “documents” that were all typed up on the same computer.
Now you turn up a legitimate copy of that Strategic Investment article, or I am really going to be mad at you.
Five “bombs”, why that’s absurd!
Why don’t you work on a project that is worthwhile, instead of this tin-foil hat thing?
at risk of sounding like a liberal, I always have felt, based upon the videos of CLinton on the day of the bombing, that he knew it was going to take place, but had'nt emotionally "prepared" himself to deal with the death of the children.
ping
What a bunch of crap! I guess Bush and Rumsfield are sitting on this Pentagon Report now too? Yes I keep forgetting here at Free Republic the entire would is involved in a conspiracy.
BUMP
Why McVeigh has nothing to do with it - some of those dozens of questions :
- What ever happened to that leg found in he blast with a military boot attached? - It was never identified with any known employee or visitor to the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
- Why was the Kansas Pizza delivery man's testimony as to the radical description variation of the man in the Kansas motel room, who the Government identified as McVeigh totally discarded by during the trial?
- Was the FBI clever enough to back trace that rental truck axle to McVeigh in a matter of hours?
- Did the rental truck agency clerk in Kansas immediately recognize that McVeigh (renting under an assumed name), was the actual person who rented the truck when questioned by the FBI.?
- How many people actually believe that McVeigh parked his car in downtown Oklahoma City, removed the license plate and attached a note on the window stating essentially that, "he would be back in a few days to pick it up; and to please don't disturb it"
- Can you believe that McVeigh had all of his Anti Government literature on the front seat of his car in plain view when he was stopped by the local Oklahoma Police?
- Why was the license plate supposedly removed from the vehicle?
- Why was McVeigh trying to get caught?
- Did McVeigh really ask his council when first meeting them in jail about whether or not the room was wired, and when told that it wasn't, said: "I Did It"
bump
I think that everyone who watched closely as the events unfolded know that there was a cover-up. But, as all propagandists know, you tell a big lie, then repeat it often and eventually the majority will believe the lie. Look at the Zapruder film. The bullet cleary enters the front of the head, expelling brain matter on the way out of the back. However, people can see this with their own two eyes, then set aside visual confirmation, the laws of physics and common sense and believe the lie.
Now you turn up a legitimate copy of that Strategic Investment article, or I am really going to be mad at you.
It is in the court record. Defense Exhibit 1923(Vol.III,Exhibit "P")
You want me to spoon feed you, too.Either produce the source of the fake 4 Ryder truck Camp Gruber photo or show yourself for what you really are.
I provided you with the quote from the Washington Post article that established the authenticity of the original Camp Gruber photo and let me see, the Washington Post is full of closet Freepers propagating tin foil hat stories.
Do you know this from first hand experience? :)
However, people can see this with their own two eyes, then set aside visual confirmation, the laws of physics and common sense and believe the lie.
That is exactly how I see it.
I read were the investigators found that the support pillars were sheared by the explosion....sorry I forgot where. All the debris was ordered buried.
I'm no real "expert" on explosives...but during the war as a tunnel rat it was my job to blow enemy bunker and tunnels. On occassion I did blow trees and reinforced postitions.
If you work around explosives, some things are under the law of physics. That is when A is combined with B in this amount, in this postition, and placed in a directional position the result will always be "c".
For the real experts demolition is a science, there is no guessing...hence very, very few mistakes.
When "a" amount of explosive is placed against a known surface strength and material the result will 99.9% of the time equal "b". They knew by building specification the strength of the concrete in the supports, the tolerance of the walls and ceiling and the lbs per sq." the load bearing areas would accept in a blast...its all science and math to the experts...no guessing. That's exactly why, the story the govenment fed the public is total Bullsh*t.
Please take your medication and try to relax. Everything is not going to be okay.
"It seems that the major thing that happened as a result of the bombing was the collapse of the growing public sympathy for the militias. I think it was a black ops mission, myself. There's plenty in Bubba's administration to make that better than a tinfoil hat idea."
That is what I have always believed. And they succeeded. Example: Norm Olsen had to disband for lack of participation.
But I believe there was a double whammy - clintoon was able to further the FEMA objectives, too.
Pardon me, why do you think that the MOSSAD killed Colby? and/or did the bombing?
TO ALL, I HOPE PEOPLE TOOK THE TIME TO READ THE WHOLE DAME THING. THEY {OR WE } better keep this old boy alive. THER IS TO0O0 MUCH TO LOSE IN KILLING THIS OLD BOY. TIME IS ON OUR SIDE. NOT LIKE KENNDY OR MARTIN. HOLD ON TO THIS OLD BOY,HE MY BE JUST THIS DUMB. OR DO OTHER PEOPLE THINK WE ARE DUMB???????????????????????????????????????????????????
It is in the court record. Defense Exhibit 1923(Vol.III,Exhibit "P")
I think Exhibit 1923 (Vol. III, Exhibit “P”) refers to “a letter”, not the article.
You want me to spoon feed you, too. Either produce the source of the fake 4 Ryder truck Camp Gruber photo or show yourself for what you really are.
The 4-Ryder truck photo was a JOKE. HA HA!!! So, does that mean your “article” is a joke too?
Do you remember the thread about the “beaver-like” marks around the base of some of the columns? Remember several people tried to say that the “beaver-like” marks were a sign that explosives had been put all around the column? Then, remember when I posted a link to the “PRIMARY SUSPECT” who I said caused the “beaver-like” marks? Then when you clicked on the link, up popped a photo of a big furry Canadian beaver. You did accept that photo as a joke, right?
I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll post the 4-Ryder truck photo again, if you will post the full original Strategic Investment article.
Heck, I’ll even throw in the photo of the beaver, and I’ll try to find a Washington Post article that authenticates the beaver.
Do we not have the African Embassy bombs to look to as an example of the damage done to a building by a large external bomb?
Try Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. That was a fuel truck full- several times as much explosive by weight as OKC, but the only damage was to the facade of the building.
"The 4-Ryder truck photo was a JOKE. HA HA!!! "
It wasn't funny.
This is not a humor web site. We are having a serious discussion of the facts in the FBI's withholding of evidence (which by any definition of the term constitutes a cover-up) and all your forgeries do is advertise that your goal here is to cause as much distaction and confusion as possible. When you first presented the 4-Ryder truck photo, you didn't say it was a joke, you claimed it as your "proof" that the original photo of the single Ryder truck in the secret base was a phony, even though the Oklahoma National Guard and the Washington POst had already authenticated the photo.
Tell us all, when you were still a working reporter, did you play such "jokes" on your readers?
Did they ever find that metal front door from Mt. Carmel? Was it stored in the Murrah building?
To my knowledge, no. The FBI either disposed of it somewhere or they still have it.
Sources close to the Pentagon study say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot."
Mrs. McVeigh, "Now Timmy, I want you to listen to me real good, because some day I want you to grow up to be a really useful idiot."
Sounds like Mission Accomplished.
Gawd I wish the whole truth would come out.
Thanks.
They just picked the first dup that wanted to make a statement and assisted him.
I certainly agree with your statements. So, we must assume that McViegh actually thinks his 'super fertilizer bomb', caused a major section of the building to implode. He wants to die to cover for his co-conspirators whom he believes to be genuine. Now, what if McViegh learned that he was setup and duped ? What if he began to get doubts about how genuine his 'anti-government' co-conspirators were ? My guess is that McVieghs own ego is blinding him to the reality that he may have been duped. Thus, they picked their man well. McViegh also once claimed the military was placing chips in his head while he was enlisted. How long will it be until McViegh realizes that to claim that his co-conspirators might have been agents of the government, would deal a potential devastating blow to the FBI he hates ? Why has he not even attempted this yet ? How genuine is McViegh ?
It wasn't funny.
I thought it was hilarious! The guy who did it made it look just like your original photo.
Tell me, who was the pilot who flew the plane in your photo? I’d like to interview him. Who was the photographer? I’d like to interview him too. How did you get a copy of the picture? Simple questions. Do you mind answering them?
even though the Oklahoma National Guard......... authenticated the photo.
Give me some proof of that. You often make outrageous claims but offer no proof.
I don’t consider a casual one-sentence statement in the Washington Post to be proof of anything. Show me the Oklahoma National Guard “proof”.
Too many photos and documents are easy to fake today. That’s why I ask you to provide corroborating evidence that prove your documents and photos are genuine, but you always refuse to offer any such evidence.
I came on this thread because of the headline “Pentagon Report: Destruction in OKC caused by 5 Seperate Bombs”. I wanted to read the report, but it turns out there is no report. No one can produce a copy of it. I click on the “Source”, which is labeled “Strategic Investment Weekly”, but it turns out NOT to be the Strategic Investment Weekly, but a tin-foil hat website.
I detest conspiracy theories made up by people who refuse to provide thorough documentation to back up their claims.
The government can lie, and so can strangers I meet on the internet. If you and other fail to back up your claims and fail to provide thorough documentation, then you are no better than government agents who do the same thing.
The Washington Post never “authenticated” that photo. For all I know, the Post writer was merely and naively taking his information from you. I’ve seen such a thing happen many times.
If your photo is authentic, you should be able to prove it. If the Oklahoma National Guard commented on it, you should be able to provide us with documentation of their statements. If honway says the Pentagon wrote a report that says such and such, I want to see that report. You guys make a lot of wild accusations that you NEVER back up with real facts and documents.
On many threads you posted a photo that showed a tarp covering something. You claimed it was hiding evidence, and I was able to prove that it was merely covering flower bouquets and American flags that had been placed in a small temporary memorial by the families of victims. The tarp was protecting them from the rain. You are a phony, Rivero. Your documents are worthless unless you can authenticate them, and you consistantly refuse to do that.
But I believe there was a double whammy - clintoon was able to further the FEMA objectives, too.
Oh, I'm sure there was a bundle of things. Laws were passed, maybe even debts paid, like one poster mentioned.
There is the possibility that McViegh made a deal, too.
You're not taking your medication!!
Probably because it was not a "faction" but a government sactioned bombing. As such neither Iraq, Syria or maybe Iran would want to claim credit. Then it means war. I put my money or either Iran or Iraq.
You're not taking your medication!!
You want me to take “medication” so I will stop demanding verifiable documentation of outrageous claims.
Surely I’m not asking too much, am I? Surely you don’t believe that young American National Guardsmen helped hide and load a truck filled with explosives so they could use it to blow up a building and kill 168 Americans?? Surely you don’t think the ATF said, “Ok, just in case that 7,000 pound truck bomb doesn’t kill enough people, let’s wire the building with 4 more bombs”? Surely you don’t believe alien space men and flying saucers are being hidden away at Area 51?
Government coverups and lies, yes. Government participation in the bombing by wiring the building with additional bombs, no.
"To: dbbeebs, honway
"Who planted all these internal bombs?"
The Severed Leg!!
61 Posted on 06/03/2001 17:30:20 PDT by rdavis84
" ROFLMAO!!! That's cute!!!
With all this talk of "internal bombs", I have started reading it as "Infernal Bombs" and "Infernal Internal Bombs"!!!
I am serious about misreading it but it always sounds kind of funny when I do..It reminds me of the book "If at Faust You Don't Succeed". I forget who wrote that sci-fi/fantasy book but it's good and funny.
*tori goes back to reading the thread, laughing and smiling as she reads again about the Severed Leg that planted all those Infernal Internal Bombs*
It wasn't even an open garage. It was parked on the street in front of the building.
Semper Curious
Question here: Many of the folks who dismiss the shape charge theory simply claim that the building was built poorly. What about that? Thanks.
The building was poorly designed -- if you assume that buildings should be able to withtstand failure of one or more support columns without the upper floors collapsing. It's actually pretty hard to bring down a modern steel framed building.
My question is, was this taken into account by those dwho chose to bomb it?
fix it???
I'm inclined to believe that the Federal agencies in the building may have had explosives stored for their own uses, and THAT may account for the secondary and tertiary explosions that were heard.
I want you to CAREFULLY consider your statement above. In a building that housed a day care center, and a public access building, do you REALLY think that there were explosives STORED there? That is completely and totally bogus. Federal regulations and even zoning regulations would be violated. What if there had been some form of accident that would have been traced back to ATF stored explosives. The hue and cry from such an event would be deafening. No sir, you are simply clutching at straws. I doubt that there was even extra ammunition stored in the building. IF there were sympathetic and ancilliary explosions (and I am uncertain on that point) they were most certainly not caused by government stored explosive devices. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it simply is a specious argument.
Semper Fidelis
You are a phony, Rivero.
And you're a mean one, Mr. Grinch. Pouring cold water on a steamer.
do you REALLY think that there were explosives STORED there? That is completely and totally bogus. Federal regulations and even zoning regulations would be violated.
Perhaps someone can direct us to the story that the FBI blew up its own laboratory with illegally stored explosives, and covered up the fact for more than a decade.
- What ever happened to that leg found in he blast with a military boot attached? - It was never identified with any known employee or visitor to the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
Just to throw gasoline on the fire. This one is a personal interest. The "leg" was from a black female. It was clad in black BDU's and was wearing a combat boot. The BDU's were bloused (with blousing bands, not tucked in).
I have been told that this was an ARMY recruiter that was pulling duty in the building. No dice. If that were the case, she would be wearing #4 Woodland Camo BDU's not black.
Semper Fi
Ah yes, but, the FBI LAB was a standalone building that had NO public access. Nice try..
Semper FI
"" ROFLMAO!!! That's cute!!!"
It was aimed as a jibe at dbleebs and Fred 2.5 in a humourous way. But they've got NO true sense of humour.
Now Fred 2.5 is on the kick of wanting Nth. degree verification of every previously cited fact so I'm sure the leg reference to another person involved with the explosives is lost on them.
Nice try indeed. I have worked for both private and government employers for several decades, and have no preconceived notions of what people will or will not do regarding safety. Entire books have been written about bad engineering and bad decisions.
Of one thing I'm certain. When any large organization has caused a disaster, even if the cause was innocent stupidity, there is an immediate rush to isolate the blame to one individual or one small group. Whereas in fact, most bad decisions are known about and discussed prior the the disaster.
"On many threads you posted a photo that showed a tarp covering something. You claimed it was hiding evidence, and I was able to prove that it was merely covering flower bouquets and American flags that had been placed in a small temporary memorial by the families of victims. The tarp was protecting them from the rain. You are a phony, Rivero. Your documents are worthless unless you can authenticate them, and you consistantly refuse to do that."
The audio file linked at #84 should be played by all. Then the likes of Fred 2.5, dbleebs, dash jim will become more transparent.
Good Job on the comparison photos. It's clear enough to those who would see.
No logic to that 'memorial' being right in the middle of the rescue efforts. It had to be a slab over to one side.
I agree. And the main character (McVeigh) is white, ex-military & anti-govt: Clinton/Reno needed NO other villians to get their message across. They killed 3 birds with one stone.
re, post #28: IMHO, the argogance of the fed is their great weakness, or was with OKC; the fed *thought* they were running a sting, but failed to stop the horrific bombing, all because they assume themselves capable of outsmarting the terrorists; they fed was complicit in the explosion because of their failure to stop something they suspected was coming, and now they MUST cover up their incompetence.
I'm no real "expert" on explosives...but during the war as a tunnel rat
There isn't a momument high enough to demonstrate the courage it took to climb into a tunnel with explosives.
Just the thought still gives me the heebeejeebees.
You may not be a Gen Partin when it comes to explosives, but then the Gen never did a duck waddle down a dark tunnel.
Jane C. Graham, a HUD worker injured in the bombing, also clearly felt two distinct blasts
It is easy for me to understand how the debunkers dismiss what I post, but how do these guys ignore the words of a woman
that suffered through the blast?
It's easy if you're an FBI agent who wants to collect on his retirement, and you've been ordered to keep her quiet. The rest of Ms Graham's statements are quite interesting, as well:
"On many threads you posted a photo that showed a tarp covering something. You claimed it was hiding evidence, and I was able to prove that it was merely covering flower bouquets and American flags that had been placed in a small temporary memorial by the families of victims. The tarp was protecting them from the rain. "
Fred, in the photo you posted to support this claim, you can clearly see the street curbing running under the slab. In the photo I posted showing the covered debris, the slab and covered object are well back from the edge of the street, and from the ladder next to the covered object, it's obvious the two slabs are different scales.
Also, in case you forgot, rain is GOOD for cut flowers. Nobody would completely wrap flowers with a tarp because the flowers would die, not only from the lack of water but from the lack of CO2 and the heat buildup.
Just call the guy Fed25.
Question here: Many of the folks who dismiss the shape charge theory simply claim that the building was built poorly.
What about that? Thanks.
The building was poorly designed -- if you assume that buildings should be able to withtstand failure of one or more support
columns without the upper floors collapsing. It's actually pretty hard to bring down a modern steel framed building.
My question is, was this taken into account by those dwho chose to bomb it?
Well, let's see: If there had been a case in which contractors skimped on the materials specified for the construction of a federal building, the investigation would have been for a Conspiracy to Defraud the United States, a violation of Title 18, Section 371 of the US Criminal Code:
Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to
defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or
more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under
this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a
misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum
punishment provided for such misdemeanor.
And who would investigate such an offense? Why the FBI, of course; they'd have had any details of any such potential weaknesses in the structure, though to my knowledge, no such charges were ever filed or prosecuted
. And the FBI of course did NOT have their own office in the Murrah Building, though FBI Agents and employees frequently left their kids in the Murrah Building's day care center, since their building didn't have one. But not on the day of the bombing....
And have FBI personnel ever been caught in wrongdoing in other Oklahoma City area crimes- including murder? Why as a matter of fact, yes....
-archy-/-
bttt
"Just call the guy Fed25."
We seemed to have a respite from the government huggers for a while there. It was like someone called for a short vacation for the crew. Now they are back full force, which suggests that something big is about to blow, probably the Key Report, and the government huggers want to be rested and ready.
As I pointed out in another thread, it's mportant to keep the facts in the case tgether and handle them as a unit. If you allow the huggers to break up the evidence into tiny pieces they can argue about it endlessly, which is their objective. But if you keep all of the facts in the case together as a whole, the reports of the bomb squad AND the Partin report AND the eyewitness affidavits AND the bomb dogs AND the Eglin Report AND the audio recording AND the photos of wrapped building debris and Ryder trucks in secret camps AND the FBI's now admitted cover-up of evidence AND the ex-agents statements of withheld evidence AND the FBI lab scandal, the government huggers have a much rougher time trying to keep the lid on, since they have to stand there shouting "tin foil", and "liar", and "fraud", and "in cahoots with the commies", at everything at once, making it very obvious that denial of the facts, rather than the facts, is what the government huggers are all about.
I have never suggested that the Murrrah building materials were substandard. But the design is no longer considered acceptable, especially for buildings that might be targets for terrorism.
Engineers in earthquake zones would have been negligent to use the Murrah design, but ten years ago, not many engineers considered terrorism in their designs.
"As I recall, Colby died 4-27-1996 in a canoe accident.The date of the article and the date of his death is interesting." from an earlier post!
During the airing of "Waco:Rules of Engagement" at the LP convention, one of the Davidian supporters explained that the FLIR tape was in evidence but they had NO idea what they had. A CIA agent came and showed them. -- little rivalry going on? -- Shortly thereafter the head of the CIA is found floating. I really think these guys play for keeps.
There are documents that show preliminary plans on a terrorist act to justify invading Cuba. This came from the 60's. One of their ideas was to sink a boat of Cubans fleeing Cuba as a rallying cry, bomb a military boat in harbor (shades of Pearl Harbor), etc. Why would we discount our current leaders from that or worse. After all, the agencies have had scores of years to fester.
Thanks for the two photos. Note that both slabs are the same shape and size. Both have the North (street-side) upper corner broken off. Both have parallel sides. Both are the same thickness. Both are tilted at the same angles (tilted Northwest). Also note that the secondary transfer girder goes through the bottom of the (very same) slab in both pictures. I don’t know what kind of a slab this is. It looks too thick to be a floor slab, but both pictures are of the same slab. Note the rainwater on the ground in the “tarp” photo. The tarp was evidently used to protect the display from the rain, because of the printed material in the display and the flags. There are some flowers sticking out from under the tarp on the lower right-hand side of the tarp. There are no other photos showing this single slab as being two different slabs.
These photos do NOT prove or disprove a conspiracy in any way. I just wanted to point out that Rivero makes stuff up in an attempt to mislead his audience. I think McVeigh was involved with more people, but I don’t believe other bombs were planted in the building as part of a conspiracy.
As I pointed out in another thread, it's mportant to keep the facts in the case
You wouldn’t know a “fact” if you saw one on sale at Wal-Mart.
AND the audio recording.....
mlo, who is another FReeper and an audio expert, totally discredited your “audio recordings”. His analysis was much better than yours. There is the sound of only one bomb on both recordings.
mlo acoustics report – post 169
You disrupted several of my JFK threads in which I was showing documentation about how the Russians began the major JFK “conspiracy” stories. The Russians published their phony stories in Moscow, starting the day of the assassination. They carried on that disinformation project for several years. I posted many documents that proved what I said was true, and I told you and everyone else how to find the originals at university libraries and the Library of Congress. Then you came in and disrupted my threads and tried to cover up for the Russians and their disinformation project. You called me a “liar”, even though I told you how to find original copies of my documents. I think you are a hoaxer trying to promote and disseminate false “conspiracy” information.
The Cold War is not over.
I'm not a demolition expert. Not many on this thread are. Probably none.
But take a look at the crater.
That is how much sand was blown away by the Truck bomb, immediately below it.
Now, 50 to a 100 feet away could this bomb have destroyed steel-reinforced concrete columns?
Go ahead, and I’ll call you Laz-Com.
Go ahead, and I’ll call you Laz-Com.
Low in originality, but expected for you.
If you are intending on linking me with communism, Fed25, might I suggest the far wittier Lazocialist?
Or how about Lazbertarian?
Or how about Lazbertarian?
Well, Fed25, you are looking to insult me, żno? Being called a Libertarian is no insult to me. Stick to my first suggestion.
Fix what??
As I recall, Colby died 4-27-1996 in a canoe accident.The date of the article and the date of his death is interesting.
I think there should be quotes around "canoe accident."
At one point the thread would not finish loading on my browser. It seemed to hang up on a font tag. It may have been a glitch in the network, because it went away.
Osama Bin Goldstien is worn out as the mandatory boogie-man, so now it's Syria and Iraq.
Michael, it warms my heart to see someone else recognize Emmanuel's handiwork in these devious matters.
That last one was just a little joke. Ha Ha.
I think McVeigh was involved with more people, but I don’t believe other bombs were planted in the building as part of a conspiracy.
If you actually do believe what you have written, then you MUST agree that McViegh and his accomplishes could have infiltrated the building prior to the truck bombing. They could have placed some extra explosives on columns in the parking garage. Why have you NOT pointed this potential out ?
Siesta time for Bonzo !
One other thing I noted that resulted from this 'terrorist' attack, now all Federal buildings appear to be prepared for fighting a war with terrorist (foriegn and domestic). Yet, at the same time our rights to defend ourselves as individuals are being taken away.
"You disrupted several of my JFK threads in which I was showing documentation about how the Russians began the major JFK “conspiracy” stories. The Russians published their phony stories in Moscow, starting the day of the assassination. They carried on that disinformation project for several years. "
Please explain how the Russians pursuaded POST magazine to publish staged photos to support the "magic bullet" theory just two weeks after the shooting, photos which years later would be exposed as obvious fakes.
Please explain how the Russians pursuaded Gerald Ford to "relocate" the location of JFK's back wound in the Warren Report, then publicly admit to the alteration years later.
Is POST part of the Russians' plot? Is Gerald Ford?
"The Cold War is not over. "
The commies are after you, Fred. They're putting flouride in your water! They are poisoning your precious bodily fluids. Commies are stealing the tags off of your couch cushions. Commies are planting crabgrass on your law. Commies are interfering with your TV reception. Run. Hide under your bed! The commies gonna GETCHA!
"That is how much sand was blown away by the Truck bomb, immediately below it."
Why do you believe that? Because FEMA made a drawing?
Crater? What Steenking Crater?
"The commies are after you, Fred."
A Fascist Nightmare!
"There are some flowers sticking out from under the tarp on the lower right-hand side of the tarp. There are no other photos showing this single slab as being two different slabs."
Have you seen this one?
I didn't know you were a tunnel rat. Hats off to you! Only the most brave could do that.
>Why would a Middle Eastern faction bomb the Murrah Building in OKC and not claim credit for it?
Ah.. perhaps because they were just on loan to an aryan group, wich they share a few goals with?
Ah.. perhaps because they were just on loan to an aryan group, wich they share a few goals with?
Or on loan to Bubba, which they share more than a few goals with?
>Or on loan to Bubba, which they share more than a few goals with?
That too. For that matter, who's to say what kind of connections might be between bubba, aryans and muslims? Sh*t tends to fall in a heap, you know :)).
Ok, that’s a good start. You might make a good detective one of these days. But I traced the photo to its origin and I found it at Gila Net, a small local ISP in New Mexico, and to a “contrail/cemtrail” “conspiracy” website. It seems to be sort of a “tin-foil hat” website.
What is the true origin of the photo? How can I tell it’s not faked? Why is the center of your photo so red? I posted the true origin of my “flower” photos, and in fact I posted a second photo of the right side of the same slab, and I posted the true origin of both. So let me see the origin of your photo.
In the meantime, study these. The first is a blow-up of Rivero’s “tarp” photo, showing two black splotches (roofing material?) on a fallen roof slab. The second photo is my “slab and flowers” photo, showing the same two black splotches, revealing that both original “slab” photos are of the same “right” slab.
BLACK SPLOTCHES IN RIVERO’S PHOTO
SAME BLACK SPLOTCHES IN FRED’S PHOTO
Now, 50 to a 100 feet away could this bomb have destroyed steel-reinforced concrete columns?
Possibly, if there was something in that truck besides a few supposed drums of homebrew AN/FO prills. But even if that were the case, it doesn't explain how the external truck bomb could do so much damage to a reinforced concrete building, yet not blow the leaves- much less the limbs- from nearby trees, still standing after the blast.
U.S. bomb planted in Bogota terror plot had checkered past
By Andrew Selsky
ASSOCIATED PRESS
May 30, 2001
BOGOTA, Colombia -- Made in the United States in the 1970s. Shipped to a
Central American government fighting leftist rebels. Stolen in 1992 as part
of an assassination plot against a drug kingpin. And planted last week by
right-wing paramilitary troops next to a communist newspaper's offices in
Bogota.
The journey of a U.S. Air Force bomb from an ammo depot in Oklahoma to
Colombia serves as a cautionary tale about where sophisticated munitions can
wind up if not guarded carefully.
The yellow 500-pound bomb, discovered May 21 by a security guard, is not a
medium-level explosive like the two that blew up in the capital Friday,
killing four people and injuring 26.
Police said if the bomb had gone off, it would have blown two city blocks to
bits -- the worst terrorist attack in Colombia in more than a decade.
Part of the MK-82 bomb's history can be traced by the numbers engraved into
it, including 0473, which shows it was made in April 1973, according to
Cathy Partusch of the Naval Aviation Systems Team in Patuxent River Naval
Air Station, Md.
It was delivered in January 1974 to the U.S. Naval Ammunition Depot, now
called the Army Ammunition Plant, in McAlester, Okla., said Capt. Almarah
Belk, a U.S. Air Force spokeswoman at the Pentagon.
Belk said that because the bomb is so old, records are difficult to trace.
But it appears to have been sent to El Salvador as part of a U.S. military
assistance package to the Central American country, which battled leftist
rebels from the late 1970s until 1992.
In 1992, the Cali cocaine cartel bought four bombs from corrupt Salvadoran
air force officers, the Salvadoran armed forces said at the time. The
purpose: to kill Pablo Escobar, the Cali cartel's rival, who was imprisoned.
The plotters intended to kill Escobar -- boss of the Medellín drug cartel --
by dropping the bombs from helicopters onto the prison, according to
Salvadoran officials.
Salvadoran agents broke up the plot, but only after three bombs were flown
out of El Salvador.
Colombia then banned air traffic over Escobar's prison and installed
anti-aircraft guns.
Carlos Castańo, head of a right-wing paramilitary army that during the 1990s
supported the Cali cartel's war against Escobar, acknowledged his outfit had
buried the bomb under a load of bananas and oranges in the back of a pickup
truck, and parked it in front of the newspaper Voz.
Explosives experts said the bomb, which is more than 6 feet long, could not
have detonated without having been dropped from a great height.
Castańo said his United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia planted the bomb as
a warning to Voz publisher Carlos Lozano -- recently named to a government
peace commission -- to tread carefully.
Copyright 2001 Union-Tribune Publishing Co.
'I have no idea but I do not recall a Middle Eastern faction taking credit for the World Trade Center bombing."
because these middle easterners are controlled by the feds or by assets of the feds... ie Mossaud
Look, I’m just trying to teach you guys how to be good investigators. You go about everything the wrong way. First, you automatically assume that all bombings, car accidents, and plane crashes are “government plots”, then you take the largest and most noteworthy cases, and you try to find statements and photos that you can use to try to talk other people into believing the way you believe.
A tarp at a construction/demolition site, in a photo taken after a rainfall, two to three weeks after an explosion, doesn’t mean anyone is “hiding” anything.
Out of a hundred thousand or more ear-witnesses in Oklahoma City – or any other city – a few will always say they heard more “explosions” than actually occurred. This is a well known fact of nature. If 100 people witness a hit and run car accident, 6 or 7 will get the color of the runaway car wrong. Most will get it right, but a few others will make some slight error in the color. Several will get the color completely wrong.
When someone presents you with “documents”, you need to track down the origin of the documents.
If you say in a headline that the Pentagon wrote a report saying there were 5 bombs, I want to see a copy of that report, or at least the original article about the alleged report. Surely that is not too much to ask.
If McVeigh was involved with other crackpot “fringe militia” types, then by following a wrong trail, searching for evidence of 5 or 6 bombs in the building, is a big mistake, especially since so many structural engineers said the building collapsed as a result of only one truck bomb. It would be better to search for McVeigh’s accomplices and crackpot friends, since they can possibly instigate another bombing, somewhere else, which will tend to make the government more repressive.
...Come on!!! They wouldn't do that.(Extreme sarcasm)
...Interesting theory, I thought it was John Candy on the mortar in "Stripes"
You know, Fred, I was only trying to keep you from soiling your pants and stinking up the thread. I see I was too late. The two slabs are entirely different and you know it. I think your apology to Michael Rivero is long over-due, don't you?
...The same government came up with the "Magic Baton Theory" when they acquitted the policemen that beat Rodney King.
Sh*t tends to fall in a heap, you know :)).
Especially if it all comes through the same sphincter, the one behind the belly of the beast.
...If that theory holds up, it is possible that the bomb McVeigh set off did not, in fact kill anyone. It would be hard to prove, but, I think it's very interesting. If, in theory, that could be proved, then Timmy would not be guilty of murder, guilty as an accomplice, maybe. More food for thought.
The plot thickens... Personally, I already believe that Bill Clinton is a murdering psychopath...
"Look, I’m just trying to teach you guys how to be good investigators. You go about everything the wrong way."
Ok. I take it back! Fred 2.5 DOES have a sense of humour.
Here is Rivero’s original “tarp” photo. You can clearly see that his “slab” is on the RIGHT side of the building, just like the “flower slab” is.
You owe me an apology.
Ok. I take it back! Fred 2.5 DOES have a sense of humour.
Yes I do. I take it you boys want me to leave you alone. You don’t seem to appreciate my help.
HA! As a matter of fact, I think the large photo might contain both slabs. I think we are looking directly at the front edge of the left slab, which is positioned directly in front of the camera, and in front of the 2nd column from the left edge of the big picture. We are looking at it straight-on. It looks like that column behind it is numbered “20”.
Note in your photo that the left slab is one full column-space to the right of the big hole that goes deep into the building, and so it is in the big picture.
Nyaaa, Nyaaa, Nyaaa! You owe me an apology!
Thanks, but in all honesty it was part time. The REAL "tunnel rats" went in everyday, that was their only job. I was a recon/scout and no one else wanted to go into the tunnels when we came across them. My primary job was Recon., but I probably went into 200 tunnels during my first tour, about half were just holding tunnels (short).
Once I was down there for 3 hours after a tank caved in the tunnel, and I had to find another way out...that was scary. Another time I saw a light down the tunnel. When I got to it, it came out at the bottom of a "Tiger Trap" (7' hole with sharpened bamboo spikes)the enemy would wait at the tunnel opening at the bottom and when a GI fell into the trap and was impalled, he jump out and stab him and take his weapon and gear and dissapear into the tunnel complex.
I got there and found a little carved area like a dirt lounge chair...I sat there for a moment relaxing then I noticed a cupped area in the wall next to me like an ashtray...with a gook ciggarette burning in it !
That was a pucker factor of about 8.5. I didn't pass him coming in, and he sure as hell didn't go out the top of the trap. I'd missed a secret passage somewhere on the way in...
I wasn't going back to look for it either...lol. I got up and yelled for the guys above and they pulled me out. I loaded myself up with C-4 and det-cord and went back into the tiger trap entrance and set my charges about 50' inside. If he didn't have another way out...he's still in there !
"I believe his status as editor contributes to the credibility of the article."
Not to mention contributing to his current mortal status.
"Paging _Jim and Sinkspud and soo many other feds, where have ya'all gone these days... to much truth coming out on OKC you cant handle it all!!! Man i love it when the truth comes out on top, even after all the shizen these idiots have spewed... HappyDays are here again...."
This is how to call the hogs !!
Lest you forget, amongst all your chorteling, that severed leg once belonged to a human being, who may or may not have had anything to do with the bombing. It could have been a passer-by. And while you chortle some more, I'd like to remind you that 168 other people died as a result of your "hilarious" internal/infernal bomb. Most of us in this area are not laughing. I guess that's reserved for those who live elsewhere, happily thinking it will never happen to them, or to their loved ones.
"HA! As a matter of fact, I think the large photo might contain both slabs. I think we are looking directly at the front edge of the left slab, which is positioned directly in front of the camera, and in front of the 2nd column from the left edge of the big picture. We are looking at it straight-on. It looks like that column behind it is numbered “20”.
Note in your photo that the left slab is one full column-space to the right of the big hole that goes deep into the building, and so it is in the big picture.
Nyaaa, Nyaaa, Nyaaa! You owe me an apology!"
Here all this time I believed you didn't have a sense of humor. Hahaha. Okay, here's your apology. I'm sorry the facts don't match your supposition.
Being the good detective that you are, you should have no trouble finding photo evidence somewhere (other than what I posted) that the Rivero slab, on the right side of the big picture, is actually on the left side of the 'memorial' slab, which is not shown (further to the right) in the big picture. Your column numbers don't match up.
There may indeed be some kind of a column or slab shown head on in the picture you refer to, but it is not relevant to the discussion, unless you want to call it Slab # 3, though it may be a column.
Let me know when you apologize to Michael and we'll talk again. Thank you for your interest in finding the truth here.
You owe me a full apology. I used your picture and Rivero’s picture to PROVE that the “tarp” slab is the same as the “flower” slab and is on the RIGHT side of the building in all the photos, even in Rivero’s photo.
If you look carefully at your photo, you can see a narrow black stripe around the column that is to the left of the left slab. That stripe is ABOVE the area where that particular floor was attached. Now, if you look in both photos, you will see a black stripe BELOW that level on the column to the RIGHT of the other one (the column that is directly behind the left slab). And, you will also see all that extra debris hanging on to the next column to the right, in both photos.
We need another couple of good eyes here. What do you think about my comments about the “left” slab and the “right” slab, starting with post 162.
Consider laying down the ego for a while and check the edges. Also check the slabs showing the 'X' marked on it. They are the same...the one with the flat edge towards the street. The Rivero slab is noticeably jagged and rounded outwards. Can't you see that?
"Can't you see that? "
He doesn't want to see it.
It should be obvious to an objective observer that the slab next to the plastic wrapped object is over ten feet tall, based on the scale of the ladder propped up next to it. Working from the size of the street curbing seen under the edge of Fred's slab, it's obvious that Fred's slab is only a few feet tall, a scale confirmed by examination of the flowers placed next to it.
But ol' Fred here, he could care less. He is desperate to explain away the plastic sheeting wrapped around the building wreckage, so he's going to claim that somebody decided rain was harmful to flowers and wrapped them up completely in plastic, no matter how obvious is is that the wrapped object is far too tall to be flowers.
Keep in mind that Fred has already admitted resorting to frauds to argue his agenda. For someone who claims to have been a reporter, that's a stunning admission!
Kids, don't make me pull over and stop!
lol thanks for the mental picture! But seriously there is enough in this mess that doesn't add up I think that rushing to put Tim down is (and should be) of great concern to us as a country. We have many people that have been on death row for 25 years in this country... what if Tim is "retarded" like the case the Supremes ruled on today? Would we have then executed a "defective" human? Of course all of those who murder are defective by default in my opinion!
What happened to Rivero’s “tarp” picture?? Sometimes I can get it to show up, and some times I can’t. I’ve got a copy in my files, so I’ll go take a look at that so I can answer your questions.
Also check the slabs showing the 'X' marked on it.
That side with the “X” is the West side of the Rivero “tarp” slab and my “flower” slab. The pictures are of the same slab. My photos show the West side and Rivero’s photo shows the East side, with the building facing North, toward the street.
They [the “X” photos] are the same...the one with the flat edge towards the street. Right.
The Rivero slab is noticeably jagged and rounded outwards. Can't you see that?
No, that’s an illusion because of the way the tarp is folded around it. The outer edge is straight, but the tarp is folded around it in a way that makes it look (to you) like the concrete sticks out.
RIGHT SIDE OF RIGHT SLAB, SHOWING MEMEORIAL. THIS IS THE SAME SLAB AS THE “TARP” SLAB IN RIVERO’S PICTURE. THE TARP WAS PROTECTING THE FLOWERS AND FLAGS FROM THE RAIN.
Eastbound won't apologise!
Here are Rivero’s “tarp” photo and my “flower” photo, with circles around the two black “roofing-material squares”. Note how they are the same size and shape. They are pictures of the same objects, taken from different angles.
I didn't say anything about National Guardsmen. Is there something you're not telling us?
In the simplest of terms, Freddy, the bogus and non-scientific claims by the BATF / FBI are bad enough without the blatant cover-ups.
With so much testimony of John Doe #2 alone, why the cover-up???
Is that the government you're trying to protect? Are you proud of them? Would you hold them accountable?
If this is so up-and-up, Freddy, why are you protecting blatant cover-up and lying??
Does the New World Order issue new citizenship papers? Are you part of a new American society that the rest of us have been denied?
"..with liberty and justice for all." Remember that part Freddy?
Just go to the fact that the FBI and BATF knew about the bombing in advance - per their own admission in open court. Yet, they let innocent people - including children - die in that building.
Remember the World Trade Center bombing - same game, Freddy. A reliable informant on the inside, yet the FBI risked the entire United States economy. OKC was a repeat. On the heels of Ruby Ridge and Waco. Does that make you feel proud and defensive???
Go to the fact that certain people were 'magically' not in the Murrah building at the time.
Go to the documented lies that government investigators were in the building at the time.
Go to the fact that 'special' kids were not dropped off that morning in the daycare.
If you'll take your medication and stay away from the Kool-aid, your vision will improve dramatically.
Is that what you want us to buy into, Freddy???
Not today, okay?
I didn't say anything about National Guardsmen. Is there something you're not telling us?
I was referring to Rivero’s National Guard Ryder truck photo.
You guys just don’t know how to conduct a proper investigation. That’s my main point. There is no “Pentagon report about 5 bombs”. Face it. The headline of this thread is a hoax, along with much of Rivero’s material.
However, I’m beginning to believe that whatever I say won’t matter at all to this particular group of people. You mix fact with fantasy, and you don’t know how to tell the difference, and I am wasting my time with you.
Tell you what, Fred, just tell us about the obvious massive cover-up and lying, etc.
Was the WTC informant bombing a figment of the FBI imagination?
Was Carol Howe a figment of the FBI imagination?
Did the FBI & BATF lie about her warnings of the impending bombing in the court room?
Having given the BATF & FBI clear warning, why did they respond by charging her with the felonies?
I'll settle for that.
C'mon Freddy, let's hear it for government integrity.
"...to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies; foreign and domestic."
That one have any meaning to you???
Take your medication, lay off the Kool-aid for a day and give us an answer we can believe.
Keep in mind that Fred has already admitted resorting to frauds to argue his agenda.
You have been shown to resort to fraud to argue your agenda. Have you removed that false acoustic analysis from your page yet? Have you done anything to correct the serious errors in it, or don't you care if you are promulgating lies?
Yet, former Attorney General, Ramsey Clark, justifies the U.S. Embassy bombing in Kenya, on behalf of the bombers. Seems he doesn't think the death penalty is warranted - only for non-Americans, I guess.
Is anybody learning anything in this picture yet????
According to the AP, the former U.S. attorney general ,Ramsey Clark, went to the trouble to testify on the behalf of one of the men convicted in the 1998 bombing of the embassy in Kenya - attempting to save him from the death penalty.
I wonder if Freddy & associates have anything to say to Clark???
The headline of this thread says, “Pentagon Report: Destruction in OKC caused by 5 Seperate Bombs”. Do you want to show me a copy of that Pentagon report, or not?
I don't know if there were multiple charges involved or other forces not reported also involved. I do know the mathematics employed in the standard design of these structures, the seismic design considerations, and anti-terrorist design methods.
The argument appealing to many known calculations on these structures ultimately relate gravity and the weight of the structure to the forces which the building is designed to withstain.
These figures are typically assumed to be a constant field of force and the gravity included in vector or scalar quantities, generally operating on other scalars and in some cases integrated over the spans of the structural members.
Also much field experience of those in the military who have placed charges, popped 250, 500, or 1000 lb bombs, or hae conducted BDA with calls for fire are very familiar with how important delivery is to the effectiveness of the explosion.
THose who deal with shaped charges generally employ a limited number of methods. Point charges, line charges, and sometimes planar or sheet charges operating against vicinity, area, volume, and point targets.
In the situation of the truck bomb, we do know there was a point charge acting on a vertical plane tranferring those forces to columnar structures. Failure of the structure is also related to either shear of columns, but probably more influenced by failure to structural joint connections, because generally less shear is required to destroy a limited number of joints, thereby rendering the structural design insufficient to withstand gravity or slight shear.
A person standing several hundred meters from a exposion probably isn't hurled through the air simply because mathematically the person is a point receiving force from a point charge spherically distributing its blast and even reflecting with partial absorption from the ground surface.
The same point charge acting on a nearby vertical line requires the the integration of the point forces over one dimension. To a vertical plane integration over 2 dimensions. Each of those integrations will operate on eqns describing the planar surface, which in this case is compound and probably better handled by integrating between vertical supporting spans. This assumes the vertical material is strong enough to transmit blast forces to the columns. What would happen is that a large portion of the force would be transmitted to the structural elements up to the breaking strength of the glass, then the remaining force would be partially absorbed by the broken glass surface formation/crack formation and the remainder passed by as air pressure into the structural members.
Note that these forces are now emanating spherically from a point source, laterally, with rebounding surface waves and other partially bounced waves from adjacent building structure surfaces. So harmonics might come into play.
Once certain structural components to the building fail, all bets are off regarding design. The original structural design is performed with safety factors simply multiplied along the calculations effectively incresing the normal strength of the building by maybe a factor of 10 to most forces it encounters.
Seismic design considers the components of structural design more than considering the degrees of freedom which IMHO is a more rigorous seismic identification issue.
I won't go into Antiterrorist design, but keep it simple, if an intelligent person is determined to destroy a building, design of the structure won't prevent him from taking it down or greatly damaging it. Accordingly such design might be prudent to keep angry idiots who are anticipated to arise from casually causing damage without recourse, but not a guarantee against terrorism.
Now I'm open minded to even read the UFO theories, the space based phonon pulsed weapons theories, possibility of multiple charges, but I don't find sufficient evidence to point one way or the other. WYSIWYG isn't in my mind grossly disproven.
I do believe there were many, many, well qualified, hard working, dedicated people who had direct interest to truthfully identify ANY possible enemy associated with the bombing. Of that group, I do believe many are fully confident this was the act of a single person, so I also give credance to their efforts.
I do find the above eyewitness testimony letter to be disturbing and wonder why it hasn't been at the focus of controversy and at least fully and openly explained at every whim of investigation by authorities.
Then again propaganda might also exist, but I have doubts. The letter raises doubts on the credibiity of the investigation.
BTW, on the blast crater, when running magnitudes and accounting for all force delivered from the bomb, a chunk of that power went towards simply vaporizing the material nearby the blast.
Now as for the severed leg, was it seen being drug by its toes? Seriously, I'd never heard reference to it.
Interesting, your obviously more educated in explosives than myself.
A question ?
The truck was parked OUTSIDE the building. The energy was "omni-directional" with probably the bulk going up and down as indicated by the crater. The question, is all release of energy "blast force" went in all directions, uncontained or directed, how could such damage have been inflicted on the Fed Building, but hardly any on the other side of the street ?
The same force ENTERING the Fed building from the street, and causing the huge damage should have been equal to that going in the opposite direction, causing so little damage ...where am I wrong ?
Correct, but imagine if you will a sphere of equal force caused by the blast emanating outwards from the blast. Every object or surface it encounters will partially absorb a portion of the blast and reflect portion and others may become projectiles if they remain structurally sound and unlodged while others may lose material properties and vaporize.
I believe I've seen some photos of adjacent building also heavily damaged but they were only several stories tall.
back to that radiating sphere, the Gov't building essentially formed a plane vertical to the ground. One can take as a crude estimate, the total energy converted from chemical to mechanical energy from the bomb, crudely estimate that 50% is directed down, but reflects, say 45% reflects. Now this means about 95% of the blast goes outwards and upwards. Now we have a building acting as a plane not quite cutting half of that. but as theta (angle) goes to zero, sine theta goes to zero, so let's say 50 % of 95% is directed towards a vertical plane from the bomb, bomb was near the building but what 50' away, so say 40% of the 95% outward force is now impacting on the building.
Yes at any one point the magnitude varies with the cube root of distance, but a simple idea in engineering called the continuity equation helps to understand the entire surface of the building absorbs about 40% of the blast energy.
Now dynamic effects might occur. I.e. the blast in the opposite direction breaks up a building and some of it bounces back at a slighter later time. Expolsions are different than other calculations in structural design becuase they involve rates of reaction by orders of magnitude as opposed to forces and accelerations and velocities above normal levels by percentages or simple factors near unity.
Also Pressure/overpressure may have effect, but again because of that continuity equation. A large volume of low density force concentrated ultimately at key points by planar surfaces. The building also might face internal stress from the explosion on one side, vaccum formed on the opposite side by air velocity along sides of building. Overpressure on blast side could cause secondary implosion then return of environment air back into the collased air space, again on blast side only, causeing other major forces onthe building.
If multiple charges were involved, then another issue arises on synchronizing their detonation. Dynamics get even more dicey to employ minimum explosives. Lots of destruction projects out there where part of the building collapsed, but not quite enough to level it. Generally the engineer designing that effort will closely use the plans and design of the building and equally perform on site inspection of key nodes/weaknesses and actual conditions. Otherwise would have to plan a safety factor (to insure it collapses, not to protect people) that increases the explosives substantially.
Now with all this said, that's just the method or a possible method to work the problem. I'm not a pro at it. professionals in failure analysis do exist. It might be the case that after quantifying a handful of the calcs that the forces available are still off by an order of magnitude.
That's why I say it might not be intuitive. You might be very correct that multiple charges were used. I don't know.
Not my posting; I don't have a copy of the report - sorry.
bttt
Surely you don’t think the ATF said, “Ok, just in case that 7,000 pound truck bomb doesn’t kill enough people, let’s wire the building with 4 more bombs”?
Surely you don't believe the FBI gased and burned women and children in their church with the operational assistance of Delta Force.What cowards.
Freddy believes what he's told to believe. He does that very well.
bump to the top
bump
Thanks to all who contributed to this post. For those who might not fully understand the motivation of those who have laid the ground work on FreeRepublic for the OKC investigation, one word sums it up-Justice. We all owe a debt to people like Michael Rivero, OKCSubmariner and the many others who have gone far beyond what we should have to ask of our fellow citizens to fill in for the absent "free press".
Make no mistake, McVeigh will never leave federal or state custody unless he is on his way to the cemetery. That is Justice.
What we seek here is that all his accomplices are apprehended and brought to Justice.
If there's a trace of justice left; McVeigh will have left a diary. I'm not holding my breath.
McVeigh was the last significant hope to get the truth out. Now we'll have to do it the hard way.
That Arkansas military magazine exploding makes me nervous. I fear a lot of explosives were stolen first. I have to bet that the next bombing will be a lot more sophisticated. None of us should be surprised when it happens.
No doubt Sink, Freddy, Aggie & the rest of their lot will be losing sleep tonight, in anticipation of their big day tomorrow.
I'm at a loss for words to describe my disgust. I'm sure that sentence will be recorded as an understatement of record.
That Arkansas military magazine exploding makes me nervous.
And we all know that there isn't any corruption in that state, the home of "the most ethical administration in history".
bump
Remember Texas the City Explosion?
The First "Truck Bomb" ........50 yrs ago.
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/metropolitan/txcity/main.html
Go to this web site to see the devastion from the explosion of the Nitrogen Fertilizer tanker.
...just for a perspective. I think you will be amazed.
thanx for diggin this one up!
bump
BTT
221 Posted on 10/23/2001 15:47:04 PDT by dbbeebs
222 Posted on 10/23/2001 15:56:03 PDT by Renatus
Why would a Middle East faction fly planes into the World Trade Center and not take credit for it?
Remember, NO ONE has admitted to doing this.
223 Posted on 10/23/2001 16:09:46 PDT by nm_james
I'm bound to say that's a good point. Of course, the answer has to be, the US would do what it's doing now. The interesting thing is, if there were Arabs or Muslims involved in OKC, the US must have known at some point. The difference between OKC and WTC seems to be that A) Bubba was in power B) the knowledge of the perps could be concealed (clumsily, in my opinion: too many loose ends, people intimidated, testimony denied without comment).
I'm still not sure that lets the government off the hook about any dark ops. I would have been easy to discover the plan and guide it along. I believe the most cynical attitude possible ought to be used to consider any federal government investigation.
224 Posted on 10/23/2001 21:05:55 PDT by William Terrell
225 Posted on 10/26/2001 15:37:21 PDT by honway
226 Posted on 10/26/2001 15:50:36 PDT by aristeides
227 Posted on 10/26/2001 16:29:49 PDT by William Terrell
228 Posted on 10/26/2001 16:37:23 PDT by monkeywrench
229 Posted on 10/27/2001 07:27:57 PDT by honway
The Goldstein reference is especially apt in light of comments made that this "war on terrorism" will go on for a long time and that "we may never find Bin Laden" It's all beginning to sound like; "We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia." "Chocolate rations will be increasing to 25 grams next week. The war with Eastasia is going well, there have been many recent successes. B..B..B..B..B..B..B..B!"
230 Posted on 10/27/2001 12:47:09 PDT by KirkandBurke
I always loved to read his posts.
231 Posted on 10/27/2001 13:21:27 PDT by carenot
232 Posted on 10/27/2001 16:57:45 PDT by KirkandBurke
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