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Charismatics Have Highest Levels of 'Biblical Accuracy'

Culture/Society News
Source: Charisma Magazine
Published: June 26, 2001 Author: Eric Tiansay
Posted on 07/02/2001 08:00:30 PDT by SLB

Survey explodes myth that Pentecostals are theological lightweights

Pentecostals are often accused of being emotional and theologically lightweight, but charismatics are "the most biblically astute people." That is the assessment of a leading Christian pollster who found widely varying religious beliefs among the 12 largest denominational groupings in the country.

According to the Barna Research Group (BRG), when it comes to having biblically sound beliefs, adults who attend charismatic and nondenominational Protestant churches emerged "at the top of the continuum" -- while those attending Catholic or mainline churches ranked at the bottom.

The latest BRG report, which evaluated people's opinions on eight faith-related perspectives, found "a clear-cut pattern" within the data: "Individuals associated with charismatic or nondenominational congregations were more likely than adults from other types of churches to possess biblical views on each item."

The nationwide survey of 6,000 adults also revealed some surprising insights into the views of laity in various denominations. The California-based organization said one of the most startling revelations was that the percentage of Mormons who have born-again beliefs - as defined by researchers on the basis of interviewees' answers -- was higher than the amount of professing believers in Episcopal or Catholic churches.

Thirty-four percent of those who attended a Mormon church said they had made a personal commitment to Christ and knew they would go to heaven when they died solely because they had confessed their sins and accepted Jesus as their savior. In contrast, just 30 percent in the Episcopal Church and 25 percent within Catholic parishes held the same perspective.

"Keep in mind that this research is neither a commendation nor a condemnation of any given church, but merely a reflection of what the people attending various churches believe," BRG president George Barna said. "Millions of Mormons attended Protestant and Catholic churches for years, and appear to have taken their prior theological training along with them."

In fact, a majority Mormons and Assemblies of God attendees firmly believe Satan is real, while only 20 percent of Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists hold this view. Other findings by BRG noted that Pentecostals based much of their faith on scriptural doctrine:

* Given the statement "the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches," four out of five charismatics agreed, while just one out of five Episcopalians concurred.

* Six of 10 Pentecostals believed salvation is a gift of God through the atoning death of Jesus, while only 9 percent of Catholics embraced this view.

* Personal responsibility for evangelism was most widely adopted by charismatics (73 percent) and least widely accepted among Episcopalians (12 percent) and Catholics (17 percent).

Barna said the survey challenges some widely held assumptions about charismatics.

"This survey did not go deeply into people's theological knowledge, but even in examining some very basic biblical concepts the study shows that the common wisdom about the Bible knowledge and convictions of charismatics is inaccurate. In fact, there is interesting correlation between the educational achievement and theological interpretation.

"Overall, charismatics have lower levels of education but higher levels of biblical accuracy, while individuals attending mainline churches are generally better educated but are more likely to have theological perspectives that conflict with the Bible."

1 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:00:30 PDT by SLB
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Orthodox Jews have the highest level of Biblical accuracy.

2 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:10:25 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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a majority Mormons and Assemblies of God attendees firmly believe Satan is real, while only 20 percent of Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists hold this view.

I was raised to believe Satan was real, but nobody ever satisfactorily explained to me where he actually lives, how he pulls off the invisibility trick, and where he gets his groceries.

3 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:12:56 PDT by Dog Gone
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Orthodox Jews are more educated than Charasmatics or members of mainline churches.

4 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:13:06 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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I always thought it was the Knights Templar. Or the Mennonites. Or the Buddhists. Or the Pagans. Or something.

I'm still trying to figure out how this fits into the politically-oriented nature of FreeRepublic.com.

5 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:13:59 PDT by Hank Rearden
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All depends on how you define 'education', huh. ;-)

6 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:14:36 PDT by EternalVigilance
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Unfortunately the Orthodox Jews haven't taken their knowledge of the Old Testament and discovered how these scriptures were fulfilled in the New Testament through the birth, life, death, & resurrection of Jesus Christ.

7 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:16:57 PDT by stars & stripes forever
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FYI.

8 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:17:13 PDT by SLB
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Orthodox Jews have the highest level of Biblical accuracy.

Would that include the New Testament?

9 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:18:09 PDT by Plummz
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when it comes to having biblically sound beliefs,

There's a lovely, loaded statement. "Biblically sound?". By whose definition?

AB

10 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:19:27 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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I'm still trying to figure out how this fits into the politically-oriented nature of FreeRepublic.com.

"One nation under God."

Seems plain to me.

11 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:22:09 PDT by SLB
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In fact, a majority Mormons and Assemblies of God attendees firmly believe Satan is real, while only 20 percent of Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists hold this view. Other findings by BRG noted that Pentecostals based much of their faith on scriptural doctrine:
* Given the statement "the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches," four out of five charismatics agreed, while just one out of five Episcopalians concurred.
* Six of 10 Pentecostals believed salvation is a gift of God through the atoning death of Jesus, while only 9 percent of Catholics embraced this view.
* Personal responsibility for evangelism was most widely adopted by charismatics (73 percent) and least widely accepted among Episcopalians (12 percent) and Catholics (17 percent).

THis should be a wake up call to all of us. 20% of Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists believe in Satan? Where are these peoples hearts? What are they doing in a church if they don't believe one of the basics of Christianity and is written in the bible? Only 9% of Catholics believe salvation is a gift of God through Jesus' death?! Wake up and listen during Mass, folks! 12% of Episcopals and 17% of Catholics do not take responsibility for evangelization? "They will be known by their fruits."

This is really sad. Reminds me of the Tonight Show when Leno takes to the streets to ask people basic questions that any 10 year old could answer.

12 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:24:03 PDT by al_c
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I'm still trying to figure out how this fits into the politically-oriented nature of FreeRepublic.com.

I'm still wondering what science-related posts or celebrity-related posts have to do with the politics. This qualifies as 'news' in the world of religion.

If religion isn't your cup of tea... no one is forcing you to read this thread.

13 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:24:51 PDT by John Farson
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Info on the researchers: Today, Barna Research maintains the most comprehensive database on the spiritual condition of the nation. And they want to help make that information available to you so that your ministry operates as strategically and effectively as possible. Among the major thrusts of the company's research are to challenge prevailing assumptions and to identify new opportunities for the church to be the agents of transformation that God intends.

Could this have been titled: "Charismatics Believe Charismatics Have the Highest Level of Biblical Accuracy"?

14 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:27:02 PDT by workerbee
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Let's see...the Bible claims to be Holy Spirit inspired; i.e. 'God-breathed'...

Charismatics claim to be baptized; i.e. 'immersed' by and in the Holy Spirit.

Seems to me that this is to a great extent empirical evidence for the truth of both claims....

As a 'charismatic' myself; one who believes what Jesus said in the New Testament...that when He went and sat down at the right hand of His Father that He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell and empower believers; I know from personal experience that it is the Holy Spirit who illuminates the Scripture...He did it for me personally.

Having said that, I have also seen charismatics led astray by false teachers...name it and claim it prosperity charlatans have infested certain charismatic churches...(although their influence seems to have waned, thank God).

But in general, I agree with the assessment of the writer...a majority of churchgoing Christians, of the mainline denominations especially, are biblically illiterate.

15 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:27:05 PDT by EternalVigilance
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In fact, a majority Mormons and Assemblies of God attendees firmly believe Satan is real, while only 20 percent of Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists hold this view.

As a Catholic in a very Catholic city, this is truly frightening. Guess this explains why no one has a problem with voodoo, Halloween, and Mardi Gras.

16 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:27:22 PDT by Reagan's_Mom
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As just about everything I read about "religion" these days, this misses the point, and to argue with it would also be to miss the point. Satan sure does seem to have his way with everyone calling themselves Christians these days.

The bottom line: it's who you know, not what you know. The whole modern Church, and Christiandom in general, whether they be Charismatic, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Brethren, Mennonite, etc., is becoming more and more ignorant and more and more dishonoring to Christ. We are sinking into the darkest of the dark ages.

Where are the Alexander Whytes, Charles Spurgeons, George Macdonalds, Jonathan Edwards, C.S. Lewises, and William Wilberforces today? Our minds are so puny and unimaginative.

17 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:31:21 PDT by agrandis
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Thanks for the info. I would note that Barna's results may well be skewed by their regional limitation--all of their 6,000 interviewees were from Ventura, California. I append the full report from the site below.

Barna Research Online

Free Subscription The Barna Update Get our latest findings e-mailed to you ... FREE! I need more info I     N     D     E     X CURRENT TRENDS Latest Release 2001 Releases 2000 Releases 1999 Releases 1998 Releases 1997 Releases 1996 Releases Permission to Reprint QuickSearch Search our entire site for seminar cities, books, videos, keywords, research data, etc. Site-Only Sale! . Cyberchurch Report by George Barna Buy It Invite a Friend! Type an email address to share this site with a friend! Site last updated June 25, 2001

Religious Beliefs Vary Widely By Denomination June 25, 2001 (Ventura, CA) In the land of tolerance and diversity, it turns out that there is very considerable diversity within the Christian community regarding core beliefs. A study of more than 6000 randomly-sampled adults by the Barna Research Group provides some surprising - and, in some ways, shocking - insights into the views of laity in various denominations. Nationally, in terms of religious classification, about four out of every ten U.S. adults are born again Christians and 8% are evangelicals (which is a subset of the born again segment). In terms of denominational affiliation, one-quarter of Americans are Catholic and a majority (three out of every five) are aligned with a Protestant church. Within that general framework, though, lies some fascinating distinctions. The Born Again Constituency Among the 12 largest denominational groupings in the country, the number of individuals who can be classified as born again - not based upon self-report but upon their beliefs about life after death - ranges from a high of 81% among the Assemblies of God to a low of 25% among Catholics. There was a clear-cut pattern within the data: adults who attend charismatic and non-denominational (Protestant) churches emerged at the top of the continuum, while those attending Catholic or mainline churches ranked at the bottom. The types of churches that have the highest percentages of born again believers, after the Assemblies of God, were other Pentecostal churches (80%), non-denominational Protestant churches (76%), and Baptist churches (67%). One of the most startling revelations is that the percentage of Mormons who have born again beliefs is higher than the percentage of born again believers within either the Episcopal or Catholic churches. In total, 34% of the adults who attend a Mormon church say they have made a personal commitment to Christ that is important in their life today and also say that when they die they know they will go to Heaven solely because they have confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. In contrast, the same perspective is held by just 30% in the Episcopal church and 25% within Catholic parishes. George Barna, president of the research firm that conducted the research, noted, "It is important to remember that we are not reporting the official teachings of these churches. The data reflect what the people within those churches believe. If nothing else, this outcome highlights the substantial theological shift that has been altering the nature of the Episcopal church, in particular, as well as other Christian churches, in recent years." Within the two largest mainline churches, slightly less than half of their adherents were born again. Forty nine percent of those who attend Methodist churches fit the born again classification, as did 48% of those aligned with a Lutheran church. The study also showed that during the last five years there has been substantial growth in the percentage of born again adults in four of the twelve groups examined: Mormons (a 26% increase), Presbyterians (+26%), Protestant non-denominationals (+12%) and Methodists (+11%). The percentage of born again adults remained relatively unchanged in the other eight denominations. Belief by Belief Besides people's views about their own ultimate eternal destiny the study also evaluated people's opinions related to eight faith-related perspectives. A similar pattern emerged, showing that individuals associated with charismatic or non-denominational congregations were more likely than adults from other types of churches to possess biblical views on each item. Given the statement "the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches," strong agreement with that view ranged from four out of five among those who attend a charismatic or Pentecostal church down to just one out of five Episcopalians. Nationally, less than half of all adults (41%) believe the Bible is totally accurate in all it teaches. Most Americans do not accept evangelism as a personal responsibility: only one-third (32%) claim they have an obligation to share their religious faith with those who believe differently. Acceptance of that responsibility was most widely adopted by those who attend Pentecostal churches (73%) and least widely accepted among Episcopalians (12%) and Catholics (17%). The notion that Satan, or the devil, is a real being who can influence people's lives is regarded as hogwash by most Americans. Only one-quarter (27%) strongly believes that Satan is real while a majority argues that he is merely a symbol of evil. Mormons are the group most likely to accept the reality of Satan's existence (59%) while Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists are the least likely (just one-fifth). There is a huge gap across denominations in relation to what their adherents believe about eternal salvation. Just three out of every ten Americans embrace the traditional Protestant perspective that good works cannot earn a person salvation, but that salvation is a gift of God through the atoning death of Jesus Christ. People attending Pentecostal, Assemblies of God and Protestant non-denominational churches are most likely to share this view (about six out of ten do so) while Catholics are least likely (9%). One of the most remarkable insights into America's faith is the fact that less than half of all adults (40%) are convinced that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life during His three decades on earth. Following the established pattern, the people most likely to describe Jesus' life as sinless were those who attend Pentecostal and Assemblies of God churches, as well as Mormons, while those least likely to view Jesus as sinless attend Episcopal, Catholic and Lutheran churches. Seven out of ten Americans perceive God to be "the all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect creator of the universe who still rules the world today." This view received near universal adoption among Assemblies attenders (96%), but was accepted by a much smaller majority of Episcopalians (59%). When individuals were asked to estimate their level of commitment to Christianity, those who were most likely to say they are "absolutely committed" were associated with Pentecostal, Assemblies of God and Protestant non-denominational churches, representing about two-thirds of the participants of those churches. The lowest levels of commitment were shown among those affiliated with Catholic, Episcopal, and Lutheran churches. People's Beliefs Vary by Denomination When seven theological perspectives are combined to determine the overall purity of people's biblical perspectives, the ranking of the twelve denominations shows three groups far outpacing the rest of the pack, with two far below all others. At the top of the list were people who attend Pentecostal churches (who had a firm biblical view on the seven items 72% of the time), Assemblies of God (72%), and non-denominational Protestant (65%) churches. The next echelon included people who attend Baptist (57% accuracy) and Church of Christ (54%) churches. In the lower portion of the standings were those aligned with Mormon (49%) Adventist (48%), Presbyterian (43%), Methodist (38%), and Lutheran (37%) churches. Lowest on the continuum were people affiliated with Catholic (28%) and Episcopal (28%) churches. Evangelicals Are Scarce All Barna Research studies define "evangelicals" as individuals who meet the born again criteria; say their faith is very important in their life today; believe they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; acknowledge the existence of Satan; contend that eternal salvation is possible only through God's grace, not through good deeds; believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and describe God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. In this approach, being classified as an evangelical has no relationship to church affiliation or attendance, nor does it rely upon people describing themselves as "evangelical." This classification model indicates that only 8% of adults are evangelicals. Barna Research data show that 12% of adults were evangelicals a decade ago, but the number has dropped by a third as Americans continue to reshape their theological views. Not surprisingly, there were only three denominations that had at least one-quarter of their adherents qualify as evangelicals: the Assemblies of God (33%), non-denominational Protestant (29%), and Pentecostal (27%) churches. One out of every seven Baptists (14%) met the evangelical classification. An unexpectedly high proportion of people associated with the Churches of Christ - 12% - fit this standard. (Barna explained that this was because a majority of the category was comprised of individuals associated with congregations not part of the United Church of Christ cluster, which tends to have very liberal interpretations of Scripture.) Churches that have the lowest proportion of adherents meeting the evangelical criteria were the Catholic, Episcopal, and Mormon churches, each of which has just 1% of its people in this category. The Protestant-Catholic Gap The theological differences between Protestant and Catholic laity are pronounced on many issues, but the gap appears to be closing in some areas. Looking at the seven core theological perspectives tested in the research, the difference between Catholics and those attending the largest of the mainline churches (i.e., Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian and Episcopal) is negligible on most of the seven views. The gaps that are the most noteworthy pertain to views on salvation. Catholics remain much more likely to see good deeds as necessary to attain eternal salvation, but even so, a majority of mainline adherents do not rely solely upon God's grace for their salvation. The study noted that Catholics comprise about one out of every seven born again Christians in the nation (13%). In contrast, Baptists represent twice as many of the born again believers living in the U.S. (28%) while attenders of mainline congregations constitute about one out of every five born again adults. Ironically, the denominations that contribute the greatest number of born again adults are the Roman Catholic and Southern Baptist churches, noted for their mutual theological antagonism. Insights Into Belief Patterns Barna commented that the survey challenges some widely held assumptions. "Charismatic and Pentecostal churches are often characterized as attracting people who respond on the basis of emotions but who lack strong biblical training. This survey did not go deeply into people's theological knowledge, but even in examining some very basic biblical concepts the study shows that the common wisdom about the Bible knowledge and convictions of charismatics is inaccurate. In fact, there is interesting correlation between the educational achievement and theological interpretation. Overall, charismatics have lower levels of education but higher levels of biblical accuracy, while individuals attending mainline churches are generally better educated but are more likely to have theological perspectives that conflict with the Bible." The researcher also expressed concerns about the overall pattern in beliefs. "The Christian body in America is immersed in a crisis of biblical illiteracy. How else can you describe matters when most church-going adults reject the accuracy of the Bible, reject the existence of Satan, claim that Jesus sinned, see no need to evangelize, believe that good works are one of the keys to persuading God to forgive their sins, and describe their commitment to Christianity as moderate or even less firm? The Episcopal church certainly stands out as one that is struggling to find its theological identity and equilibrium, but millions of individuals who attend other Protestant churches are going through similar substantive redefinition." Barna also predicted that many church leaders would take exception with the data about the biblical beliefs and born again nature of Mormons. "Keep in mind that this research is neither a commendation nor a condemnation of any given church, but merely a reflection of what the people attending various churches believe. Millions of Mormons attended Protestant and Catholic churches for years, and appear to have taken their prior theological training along with them. Likewise, recent theological battles over scriptural interpretations regarding homosexuality, women in leadership, divorce, and euthanasia have encouraged more people to ignore the teachings of their church in favor of customized theological views. In many ways, we are living in an age of theological anarchy." Survey Methodology The data described above are from telephone interviews with a nationwide random sample of 6038 adults conducted from January 2000 through June 2001. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample is ±2 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. All of the interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. Adults in the 48 continental states were eligible to be interviewed and the distribution of respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult population. Multiple callbacks were used to increase the probability of including a reliable distribution of adults. "Born again Christians" were defined in these surveys as people who said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as "born again." The Barna Research Group, Ltd. is an independent marketing research company located in southern California. Since 1984, it has been studying cultural trends related to values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. This research was funded solely by Barna Research as part of its regular tracking of attitudes, values and behavior. If you would like to receive a bi-weekly update on the latest research findings from the Barna Research Group, you may subscribe to this free service by typing your e-mail address in the field above located at the top of this page on the left-hand side. Born Again and Evangelical Christians, by Denomination born again evangelical % of U.S. population sample size all adults 41% 8% NA 6038 Adventist 37% 5% 1% 89 Assembly of God 81% 33% 2% 94 Baptist (any type) 67% 14% 17% 1035 Catholic 25% 1% 22% 1358 Church of Christ 56% 12% 2% 118 Episcopal 30% 1% 2% 112 Lutheran (any type) 48% 6% 5% 287 Methodist (any type) 49% 4% 6% 392 Mormon/Latter Day Saints 34% 1% 1% 86 Christian non-denominational 76% 29% 5% 321 Pentecostal/Foursquare 80% 27% 2% 124 Presbyterian (any type) 54% 8% 3% 192 Ranking of Theological Purity of People’s Beliefs, by Denomination* (average percentage of denominational adherents who had a biblical perspective on each of seven theological considerations, items A,B,D-G listed below plus the born again questions) Pentecostal/Foursquare 72% Assembly of God 72 Christian non-denominational 65 Baptist 57 Church of Christ 54 Mormon/Latter Day Saints 49 Adventist 48 Presbyterian 43 Methodist 38 Lutheran 37 Catholic 28 Episcopal 28 A Comparison of the Beliefs of Catholics and Mainline Protestants* A. Bible is totally accurate B. must tell faith to others D. Satan is real E. works don’t earn Heaven F. Christ was sinless G. God is the all knowing, all powerful Creator H. born again Christian Catholics 26% 17% 17% 9% 33% 70% 25% Mainline Protestants 35 27 29 39 45 72 48 *Mainline Protestants included in these aggregated statistics include those who attend a Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian or Episcopal church. Those associated with a United Church of Christ or American Baptist Church are excluded. Theological Beliefs, by Denomination A. Bible is totally accurate B. must tell faith to others C. relig. faith is important D. Satan is real E. works don’t earn Heaven F. Christ was sinless G. God: all-powerful Creator H. absolutely committed to Christianity all adults 41% 32% 68% 27% 30% 40% 69% 41% Adventist 64 42 73 37 32 45 76 53 Assembly of God 77 61 86 56 64 70 96 66 Baptist (any type) 66 51 81 34 43 55 85 58 Catholics 26 17 68 17 9 33 70 43 Church of Christ 57 51 81 36 42 54 80 59 Episcopal 22 12 60 20 26 28 59 46 Lutheran (any type) 34 27 63 21 27 33 72 55 Methodist (any) 38 28 74 18 24 33 73 47 Mormon/Latter Day Saints 29 55 90 59 15 70 84 NA Christian non-denominational 70 59 86 48 60 63 89 67 Pentecostal/Foursquare 81 73 94 47 62 73 90 66 Presbyterian (any) 40 33 71 22 31 45 76 60 A=strongly agrees that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches B= strongly agrees that they have a personal responsibility to tell others about their religious beliefs C= strongly agrees that their religious faith is very important D= strongly disagrees that Satan is just a symbol of evil E= strongly disagrees that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others they will earn a place in Heaven F= strongly disagrees that Jesus Christ committed sins while on earth G= believes that God is the all-powerful, all-knowing perfect creator of the universe who rules the world today H= says that they are absolutely committed to Christianity NA=not asked Recent News Releases June 5, 2001 Churches Lose Financial Ground in 2000 May 21, 2001 More Americans Are Seeking Net-Based Faith Experiences April 30, 2001 Most Americans Are Concerned About the Nation's Moral Condition April 16, 2001 Researcher Predicts Mounting Challenges to Christian Church March 29, 2001 Pastors Paid Better, But Attendance Unchanged March 5, 2001 Annual Study Reveals America Is Spiritually Stagnant View entire list

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18 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:31:50 PDT by Paul Ross
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Are Mormons charistmatics? Serious question, I don't know anything about them.

19 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:32:16 PDT by PoisedWoman
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There is still a group of people that think this is a religious discussion board to play 'My Religion Is Better Than Yours, You Heretic!'....

20 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:33:04 PDT by beowolf
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I'm not going to flame you. This is me turning the other cheek............ ;9) (9;

21 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:37:48 PDT by Ditter
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"I'm still trying to figure out how this fits into the politically-oriented nature of FreeRepublic.com."

Let me explain then.

What people believe about God is critical to how things play out in the real world; i.e. politics.

For example, Hitler had a totally corrupt theology...it amounted to a belief in ancient superstitions and occultic garbage. That really mattered for millions of people, didn't it?

Clinton, while he loved to carry around his huge Bible for purposes of photo ops, didn't seem to pay much attention to anything written in it, did he? Did that matter politically?

My first warnings about Clinton were really when he gave his speech to the '92 Democratic Convention. Why did I go tell everybody I knew that Clinton was a danger to our Republic? What gave him away to me as a totally corrupt person? It was because I heard him, in that speech, totally twist and misquote scripture...the whole theme of it was 'A NEW COVENENT'!! He was a shameless blasphemer and liar in my eyes henceforth. Was I right?

Yes, my friend, what people believe about God and the Bible is important to the political future of the world and our FRee Republic.

22 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:38:45 PDT by EternalVigilance
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II Timothy 4: 3&4

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Those Christians (little christs) following in the footsteps of the Savior Have Highest Levels of 'Biblical Accuracy'. If your church doesn't have 'Biblical Accuracy' find a Bible Church that does!

23 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:39:48 PDT by Rodm
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Those Christians (little christs) following in the footsteps of the Savior Have Highest Levels of 'Biblical Accuracy'. If your church doesn't have 'Biblical Accuracy' find a Bible Church that does!

Amen!

24 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:42:49 PDT by SLB
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I was raised to believe Satan was real, but nobody ever satisfactorily explained to me where he actually lives, how he pulls off the invisibility trick, and where he gets his groceries.

Didn't you ever read The Screwtape Letters? You be ol' Nick's groceries, son. :-)

25 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:46:15 PDT by logos
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Thanks for the info. I would note that Barna's results may well be skewed by their regional limitation--all of their 6,000 interviewees were from Ventura, California. I append the full report from the site below

To my reading, the interviews were conducted from Ventura; the interviewees were dispersed throughout the continental United States.

[FROM THE REPORT] All of the interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. Adults in the 48 continental states were eligible to be interviewed and the distribution of respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult population. Multiple callbacks were used to increase the probability of including a reliable distribution of adults

26 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:47:14 PDT by Caleb1411
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You just misunderstood; he meant new COVEN!

27 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:51:02 PDT by antidisestablishment
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Mormons are a two-tiered cult, that nominally worships Christ, but then superimposes on those teachings, the Book of Mormon, which was plagiarized from a 'novel' of the era by Joseph Smith. It REJECTS the Bible where the Book of Mormon's teachings conflict. They deny the individual walk with Christ, and bearing our own crosses, and that the salvation comes from Jesus's forgiveness alone. They limit salvation to the 'male' of the family, who must 'pull-through' any women-folk and family members he chooses. They also teach that prosperity is a prerequisite mark of grace from God, and that you should be 'making it' if you're saved. Many of the members put on the dog, run up the credit cards, etc., just to show how saved they are.

Nonetheless, I must say I am impressed at their doctrinal literacy if it is accurate, as opposed to main line protestants. The Presbyterians always used to be among the very best, and hit these types of things out of the park, and now look where they have apparently fallen. Very disappointed with them. Part of why I left them 8 years ago for the Church of Jesus Christ.

28 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:55:02 PDT by Paul Ross
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No, Orthodox Jews do not believe that the NT is the word of G-d, and do not believe that Jesus fulfilled any prophesies made in the OT.

29 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:57:02 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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All of the interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. Adults in the 48 continental states were eligible to be interviewed and the distribution of respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult population. Multiple callbacks were used to increase the probability of including a reliable distribution of adults.

You are right, the way they portray it, however, the Devil is in the details, and those particular raw data are not included. I would still be suspicious of skewing, but I guess that I am not really all that shocked at the results. A backsliding nation, has to first have backsliding parishioners.

30 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:58:02 PDT by Paul Ross
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I actually took a college class where The Screwtape Letters was one of the required texts. It is a very though-provoking book.

Still, I wonder about these things.

31 Posted on 07/02/2001 08:58:30 PDT by Dog Gone
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Charismatics Have Highest Levels of 'Biblical Accuracy'

Not really - they're just able to convince one they do.

32 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:05:18 PDT by Senator Pardek
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According to none other than Thomas Paine these OT scriptures were not fulfilled in the NT. "OLD TESTAMENT "PROPHESIES" OF JESUS PROVEN FALSE" by Thomas Paine You can check it out at http://www.deism.com/paine_essay04.htm

33 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:06:56 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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Thanks for posting the full study - I just finished reading it on their website, and was going to post a link.

Fascinating reading, but sad at the same time.

34 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:07:08 PDT by mombonn
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This Christian says that this article is pure "horse shit". I wouldn't send my dog to a charismatic church. It's nothing but a "feel good" circus.

35 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:07:13 PDT by Bloody Reaper
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Bingo. Jewish scholars remind me of the adage "can't see the forest for the trees". They know the details of who was stoned when but don't know what it all means.

36 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:10:21 PDT by plain talk
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Good. It's when you stop wondering that you've got a problem.

37 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:14:18 PDT by logos
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Nonetheless, I must say I am impressed at their doctrinal literacy if it is accurate, as opposed to main line protestants. The Presbyterians always used to be among the very best, and hit these types of things out of the park, and now look where they have apparently fallen. Very disappointed with them. Part of why I left them 8 years ago for the Church of Jesus Christ.

The authors asked all Presbyterians. Had they asked just PCUSA they would have come up with a much lower percentage, the PCA or Orthodox Presbyterian, a much higher percentage would have answered for Accuracy.

38 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:17:13 PDT by Gamecock
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Charismatics and such sorts are full of crap.

39 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:17:27 PDT by J.Parsek
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Thomas Paine, rabble-rouser extraordinaire, author of Common Sense was well known as more or less, an atheist, and his attacks on the Bible have been debunked... His views on the Bible never had any currency with the Founding Fathers, even the most sypathetic to his view, such as Jefferson, who created the "Jefferson Bible."

40 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:20:29 PDT by Paul Ross
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Thank you very much for your opinion. I do not hold yourself with such regard though, for Jesus tells us (the Pentacostals and charasmatics you insult) to love those who hate us.

41 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:21:20 PDT by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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"Overall, charismatics have lower levels of education but higher levels of biblical accuracy, while individuals attending mainline churches are generally better educated but are more likely to have theological perspectives that conflict with the Bible."

I see this statement as very positive. The majority of the more educated folks have been mucked up with worldly views and just don't GET IT, the true spiritual walk. Where as, the lower educated person receives the teachings of scripture with open arms, and easily GETS IT (who I might add, have a fuller and much more rewarding life on earth).

1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

42 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:22:43 PDT by shield
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"where he gets his groceries"

janet reno delivers his groceries in her flaming red truck.

43 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:24:46 PDT by Cinderreno
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No they don't but I bet they have the highest level of women killing their children and other mental problems.

44 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:26:48 PDT by biblewonk
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What is most telling here is the statement, "says that they are absolutely committed to Christianity". For the "Mormons"(The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints) instead of a percentage, we get "N/A". The key below says "N/A" means "not asked".

Very peculiar for a survey of the 12 major religions in the USA. Why would they bother to ask LDS all the other questions and not if LDS are absolutely committed to Christianity? Either they knew the answer.(It is widely held among "evangelicals" that Mormons are reserved a very warm place in hell.) Or they did not want the answer to skew their data.

How "nice" it is to have an "honest" survey. Never heard of Mormons? I am sure some experts will tell you to stay away, far away.

45 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:28:11 PDT by scottiewottie
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That wasn't really an answer to my question, but I would assume the answer is no anyway.

46 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:28:35 PDT by Plummz
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People's Beliefs Vary by Denomination

Imagine that!

47 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:29:57 PDT by Steve0113
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Rabbi Singer backs up what Thomas Paine wrote concerning Jesus not fulfilling the OT prophesies. You can check out Rav Singers web - site at www.outreachjudaism.org

48 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:30:08 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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I especially have to agree with the last paragraph. Now, let the flaming begin.

I'm not disagreeing with it but I do have higher edukasun. Unfortunatly it wuz in Kalifornia publik skules.

49 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:32:30 PDT by farmfriend
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And you can check out the Jews For Jesus web site, which debunks Rabbi Singer. I further would just invite you to read Paul's Letters, particularly the one to the Romans and Hebrews.

50 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:34:31 PDT by Paul Ross
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I was raised to believe Satan was real, but nobody ever satisfactorily explained to me where he actually lives, how he pulls off the invisibility trick, and where he gets his groceries.

What? You're able to see all the other angels, just not him?

51 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:34:35 PDT by farmfriend
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It must be a two-tiered cult because I am not in the tier that you described.

52 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:34:49 PDT by scottiewottie
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This might prove interesting to some of you since it ends with reference to upcoming Fourth of July. Use your discernment:

The Father Speaks of Healing and our Heritage
"Many, many wounds" by Silvana Lupetti at Table of the Remnant
January 25, 2001

[When I heard about the vandalism by the staffers from the Clinton administration which was done in the White House] I felt stabbed because Americans think of the White House as the founding fathers, and Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Roosevelt, Reagan, and Kennedy. Even though Kennedy had failings in the flesh, there were moments of nobility with John Kennedy. So we think of the White House almost as our house, as the country's house. When we sent out the posting today [to the Table of the Remnant mailing list] that showed the Drudge Report about it [the vandalism] I only said, "This is the enemy showing his anger," and it was the truth of it. Because behind [the scenes] the enemy has had freedom in the White House for eight years. Unchecked. I don't know if there is anyone in the [former] White House who wouldn't lie for him [Bill Clinton]. Even the ones you would consider to be more respectable. Like Betty Curry, his personal secretary, she lied for him. And these people had sway and the enemy had sway.

How the enemy must have mocked us as he had all that power, and yet the day came, the day came. He had to be pulled out of there. With every malevolent thing in the enemy he was ripping and tearing as he was being dragged out of there. Probably [he was dragged out] by Gabriel - beaten over the head with the flag of UNITY and dragged out of there. So he just left his poison behind; his vitriol and his disrespect and his hostility and his hatred and his baseness, as a mark.

But it is not a lasting mark. Something that can be healed can't be considered lasting. And I see the Father in the green fields and I see George W. Bush speaking the truth every day, and representing Jesus every day, because he does with his demeanor and his actions. I see him as faultless, covered with blood. Faultless because he loves Jesus and doesn't want to displease him and wants to do everything for Him and for his country. That is what will heal the mark [that was] put on our country.

The scar is in Jesus' wrists until it is not. I hope that a time comes when we don't have to remember what we did to Him. Our country is scarred and bloody and healing must come. Healing will come as He promised it, and what better time to promise it but in the spring, on Easter, the Passover time, the time of mercy. He could heal us of these wounds we are suffering. We are suffering, and our children's suffering surpasses our own because they are innocent, before the age of accountability. They are innocent; they really need our covering and we need His. So with all these national wounds and personal wounds, because our marriages have become oceans of pain; for children, for people and there are so many wounds.

It is like Jesus. He was beaten beyond recognition, you couldn't tell who He was. And you can't tell who and what this country once was. You can't tell that there were men who placed self last and country first and others before themselves. Even to putting themselves in harm's way, paying the ultimate sacrifice, and dying for their country. You'd never know there was nobility here at one time, and that a whole nation stood together when there was war, that they sacrificed personally without complaint. We joined together in unity then. We were beautiful then in our own way, even though vessels of clay we are. But you'd never know that happened. We have been beaten beyond recognition. Everything is anti-God, an ocean of anti-God; not just no God, anti-God, hostile towards Him. As if they would rip Him limb from limb. "Don't talk about Jesus." His name became mockery. It's already being used as a curse word, but it became mockery. We didn't look anything like we were once.

Even so with God all things are possible. God can take death and turn it into life, so what else is beyond His control or power? Nothing. This country is loved by Him. It has a story to tell - that in all of the human experience, with all the darkness in history, this country stands out, just like Israel did. Israel, who said, "Hear O Israel, Your God is one God, the true God," and we say, "Hear O world, Jesus is the only way to the true God, and He is the true God." We say that to the world. Now, we really say it to the whole world as a city on a hill. But before we can stand and do His will, we ourselves have to be healed. So the Father offers a promise to us. We have written about this and it is in the writings.

He is going to heal. Three days before Easter, three days after Easter, and Easter itself, the Father reserves and sets aside a time where He heals many, many wounds, and all the people's division, and all the pain of their division, and in the schools, with no safety there. All of these broken promises, He will heal them. It will be as we feel about Mayberry, with Andy Griffith. Something pure, something where people don't fear each other so much, where there is not so much violence. Where abortion happens as rarely as we can possibly get. We are fighting for every inch we can get, and we already have made a great stride when we stopped funding abortion overseas. So America is not doing that as a nation any more.

This healing will come. So many things that we could think of that are broken that could be repaired. He says, "I will restore what the locusts have eaten," because it is His will that we have a strength right now at this time in the earth. He wants us to have a strength that can only come from God. "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me," can be said to the whole nation so that we are ready for what is coming.

Our borders are miracles. We are Goshen because Jesus is on the throne in America. We are the Goshen that those who will be come against can come to and turn to and find out what is at the heart of the city on the hill. Where is all this light coming from and all these miracles and strength? It's from Jesus, the Son of God. That's our message. That's the message of our time and the message of all times. But we are to be standing strong now because we are in this time and generation facing the things that are coming. He knows. His return is at the end of them all. We point towards Him and His healing will come and we will move forward.

"Then on July 4, 2001," the Father said, "Americans will wake up and again feel like Americans." They will have patriotism, their hearts will be stirred at the sight of their flag. They will desire to teach their children what really happened, that ended up with the founding of America. Not the secular, world's version, with omission of the miracles that happened, and the visions that happened, and God's involvement, and the founding father's involvement with God. That will be something desired by Americans more then it ever was.

So, July 4, 2001 the Father has, I see, in His hand, a golden tray and He is approaching. On His arms and draped over His shoulders is the American flag, and He is walking towards July 4, 2001, and on that tray is our heritage. It was lost to us and He is going to give it back to us again. [He will restore: "Unity, restoration, peace."] "Remember what you come from. Remember you stand on a green living thing, the Constitution, and I gave it to you. That is your heritage. Remember the founding fathers trusted Me, and I was with them and I will always be with America. I founded it, I created it, I love it, and, here is your heritage. Come and take your heritage back."

53 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:35:18 PDT by 4truth
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Oh, no, you mean that Leno's jay-walks are truly representative of the California School products ??!

54 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:36:59 PDT by Paul Ross
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Could this have been titled: "Charismatics Believe Charismatics Have the Highest Level of Biblical Accuracy"?

You noticed that too?

Reminds me of a brand of generic cigarettes I used to smoke. Each pack was emblazoned with the message, "GPC Approved". A closer look revealed that GPC was the manufacturer. The message has since been eliminated.

55 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:38:15 PDT by Steve0113
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A look at the numbers by denomination is amazing too. This cannot pretend to be accurate by any means. What is important to realize is the researchers here were not really concerned about being scientifically accurate. They were just out show how the other major cults relate to their cult.

56 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:40:15 PDT by scottiewottie
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Having said that, I have also seen charismatics led astray by false teachers...name it and claim it prosperity charlatans have infested certain charismatic churches...(although their influence seems to have waned, thank God).

Boy do you have that right. I was attending a church that got into that stuff and the Lord told me to go else where.

57 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:40:46 PDT by farmfriend
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I was raised in a conservative Baptist church and our pastor was an excellent Bible teacher and we had wonderful theologians come in as guest speakers from Talbot, Dallas, Portland, etc. But, it was in scripture memorization that really helped me retain those doctrines and in Deuteronomy 34:6 God says to memorize His word in your daily life as well as Phil 4:8 (I'll let you look them up)...most people sit and listen to pastors but don't open up their Bibles at home and dig out things for themselves.

58 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:41:16 PDT by princess leah
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Moose, check out this website: http://www.biblecodedigest.com/

FReep regards,
Princess Nara

59 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:41:54 PDT by TrueBeliever9
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Indeed, it is two-tiered. The initial tier is probably the one you are in. That one emphasizes its 'christianity' and is coy about their 'higher' views. Does your church get its weekly sermon straight from Salt Lake City via closed circuit television? My brother, who is rather agnostic, joined the Mormon's to marry his wife, and is rather quietly relaying some of this stuff to me.

60 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:43:12 PDT by Paul Ross
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"Where are the Alexander Whytes, Charles Spurgeons, George Macdonalds, Jonathan Edwards, C.S. Lewises, and William Wilberforces today? Our minds are so puny and unimaginative."

close my tag - sorry

65 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:52:23 PDT by sendtoscott
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Didn't you hear, Mr. Materialist....he was just discovered living with a woman in Texas!!!

Golden

ps, why don't you next enquire as to where 'Love' & 'Justice' reside, also? After all, no one has ever seen them either, right? Of course that means there is only one answer --- they couldn't POSSIBLY exist!!!

Then read some Das Kapital, and get back to us with a book report about 'Marks'...Maybe after that, you can announce during Show-n-Tell, with a shocked look on your face, that Santa Clause is a myth, too!!!

Then you can go on a bike ride, drink some Ovaltine, and then stay up late and watch the 'nakie' channel that your parents have blocked on cable!!!

66 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:54:26 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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Ravi Zacharias: Extraordinary teacher

Yes, he is, and funny. I've heard several of his talks.

67 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:56:34 PDT by Steve0113
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I'm no theologian, but when Christ said: "No man comes to the Father except through me", how may that be interpreted to mean that there are other avenues to salvation? Don't the evangelicals have a point there, over the Catholics et al?

I would be interested to see Biblical, New Testament evidence of where a Christian can validly believe that there are other ways to salvation other than through Christ's saving Grace. Thanks....

68 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:57:33 PDT by freedomcrusader
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Oh, no, you mean that Leno's jay-walks are truly representative of the California School products ??!

Don't get me started, don't even get me started.

69 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:59:21 PDT by farmfriend
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Your brother needs to attend church once in a while, he would know the answer. There is no LDS church that gets weekly sermons by closed circut television.

Joined to marry his wife? Not required. My daughter married a very fine husband who is not LDS. They were married at our church meeting house by our Bishop. He is still not LDS, but both he and his wife(my daughter is not active in any church right now) are very good parents to my grandson. They both life Christ-like lives in many ways and are very happy.

70 Posted on 07/02/2001 09:59:30 PDT by scottiewottie
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This is a piece of psychosis - chilling, especially the part about W.: yes, he's covered with blood... think he would have stayed Christ's execution? commuted the sentence?

71 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:00:28 PDT by maggiesfarm
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"No man comes to the Father except through me" ... Don't the evangelicals have a point there, over the Catholics...?

No. (The Catholic Church has been teaching that for 1968 years.)

AB

72 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:03:28 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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Hmm. Funny they pit the Episcopalians against the Charismatics. If they put the Baptists in there they'd blow the dichotomy to bits.

73 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:03:42 PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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Ask what percentage of black Americans worship wooden & stone idols. The answer: You'll get pretty close to zero, even though they descended from ancestors who believed objects of nature had some element of divinity.

Same thing with Catholics & various Protestant denominations today. Most of them label themselves so just because they come from families who always had associated themselves with such groups. Beliefs are increasingly becoming a race/ethnicity in itself, rather than an actual religion.

Now, if you went to a Catholic church on a random Sunday and asked the attendees if they believed in Satan, you'd get a *very* good response.

The newer the religion, the higher percentage of people who associate themselves with that particular religion who actually believe in its core tenants.

74 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:05:28 PDT by Garin Hunt
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What difference does it make if someone joins the Mormon (LDS) church or not? They believe the VAST majority of people will go to one of the 3 levels of heaven, while only the chosen few-- Hitler, Stalin, Nero, Mao -- make it to hell.

Then again, if a man wants to be a GOD, as good as any other in the universe, and have his OWN planet, and many wives to have eternal celestial sex, he should sign up Right Away!!!

Golden...ps Does it bother the Mormons that they have No Seminary for teaching church history, theology, or pastoral theory? Instead, the 'succesful' of the community..ie rich and powerful business people, become "Bishops" for a year or two!! now talk about a 'Success Religion'!!!!! **WARNING** **WARNING** **WARNING**...Mormons have a different 'definition' for MANY Biblical terms, so that they might pass a Barna Biblical Literacy test, and have NO Idea what it is the Bible actually teaches!!!!

75 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:10:29 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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Another great website: http://members.aol.com/prophecy04/Articles/Siteindex.html

76 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:13:48 PDT by TrueBeliever9
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No. (The Catholic Church has been teaching that for 1968 years.)

But according to the study, only 9% believe it, whereas a majority of evangelicals believe it.

77 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:15:00 PDT by freedomcrusader
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That's what many said about the wild man of the desert, John the Baptist, when he introduced God's Son.

As for President Bush covered by the blood of Christ...Jesus died for the whole world, but it is spiritual connotation that only those who believe it would be able to appreciate.

I also agree with the President that the death penalty is an important deterrant and necessary punishment in this violence-filled country in which we live.

78 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:15:54 PDT by 4truth
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Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. These are the disciples, they walked with the LORD, they spoke the language and they had to have their understanding opened! How much more we?

John 16
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

79 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:20:54 PDT by Jeremiah Jr (ZTV)
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I'm still trying to figure out how this fits into the politically-oriented nature of FreeRepublic.com.

It should be listed under "entertainment" as we watch the various sects slime each other and condemn each other to hell. It is especially hilarious to hear each religion call the others fake and made up.

80 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:21:52 PDT by jlogajan
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Mormons are the group most likely to accept the reality of Satan's existence (59%)

This shouldn't be surprising given that Joseph Smith's account of the First Vision contains the following (emphasis is mine):

15. After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16. But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

Does this mean that The Church Lady ("Could it be... Satan?") is really a Mormon? ;-)

81 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:22:32 PDT by CubicleGuy
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But according to the study

a) I don't trust the study.
b) I know (of) many people who were baptized in the Catholic Church, but haven't darkened a church door (of any sort) in many years. If anything, they believe in the gospel according to St. Washingtonpost. Are they Catholic?
c) In some geographic areas, Catholics have, of late, done a poor job of teaching their children well. It's scandalous.
d) I don't trust the study. (Actually, I trust the study to support whatever its authors want to support, regardless of the truth. I believe most "studies" are similar.)

AB

82 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:23:45 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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I understand the metaphor: can you appreciate the irony? There is nothing Christian about W's signature of the death warrants of 152 (?) people. This is hypocrisy in its most sublime form.

83 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:24:48 PDT by maggiesfarm
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I believe Rabbi Singer comments on the supposed Bible Codes. Check it out at www.outreachjudaism.org

84 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:25:38 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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ArrogantBuzzard....You say "No man comes to the Father except through me" ... Don't the evangelicals have a point there, over the Catholics...?

"No. (The Catholic Church has been teaching that for 1968 years.) AB"

Yea, sure AB, the Catholic Church has been teaching that for 2000 years!!! Just like their position on Mary, made "Official" in the 1800's was the "Official" Church position for 2000! hahaha

The "Church" gets around to teaching EVERY position at some point. The real question is... How does a person get to heaven via Pelagianism, when the Church that teaches that position now, ALSO condemned Pelagianism as an ABSLOUTE HERESY More Than 1000 Years Ago???!!!! Another Divine Mystery?

Pelagianism is the idea that you can WORK your way to heaven, with a li'l boost from God. I guess the Catholics throw out Galations & Collosians, TOO!!! (teaching man can NEVER 'Work' his way to heaven, and that Salvation is an ABSOLUTELY FREE GIFT!!! )

Oh, and don't misquote 'Work out your salvation by Fear and Trembling...' to me either, since it finishes by saying "... For it is the LORD WHO WORKS IN YOU For His will and good pleasure"!!!!

85 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:26:13 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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Rabbi Singer soundly refutes "Jews for Jesus" on his web-site at www.outreachjudaism.org

86 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:28:04 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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Go to Rabbi Singer's web-site and access the sub-title where Rav singer answers questions. You will be suprised to hear what Rav Singer has to say. Let the Rabbi teach you the things that the church will not tell you.

87 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:29:54 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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Forget about Ravi Zacharias. You need Rabbi Tovia Singer at www.outreach Judaism.org

88 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:31:06 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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Thank you for playing our game. There are many "good" well meaning "christians" that make a career selling and lecturing about that devil cult the mormons. If you consider that kind of literature as accurate, all I can suggest to you is to follow your own counsel and read the Bible. I live by the admonition of Paul, to prove all things and to hold on to that which is good.(I Thes. 5:21) I know nothing about the Church you think is mormon, when I find it I am sure I will stay away from it just as wisely as you have.

89 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:32:57 PDT by scottiewottie
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Let Rabbi Tovia Singer teach you. www.outreachjudaism.org

90 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:33:18 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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I think you've ran across a problem in this survey. Catholic's don't use the term "born again" even though they understand what the requirements for salvation are. This may account for the many "no" answers to the "born again" question.

91 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:36:11 PDT by redhawk
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LOL!! I agree. It really is great entertainment.

92 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:37:28 PDT by scottiewottie
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ArrogantBuzzard
Cute. But a bustard is a predator, not a scavenger.

I guess the Catholics throw out Galations & Collosians
ROFL!!! It's not the Catholics who like to throw books out of the Bible. Ask your good buddy Martin Luther what he thinks of James and Revelation.

The rest of your post says more about you, than it does about the Catholic Church.

AB

Try reading Matt. 25.
'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

93 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:39:18 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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Baptists know more than both groups.

94 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:41:02 PDT by RaceBannon
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Yes, I do see where you are coming from and respect your right to your opinion. I don't have a problem with the irony because I consider man's limited finite understanding in comparison with an eternal Creator's own viewpoint. Now, we see through a glass darkly on some things, but we both can trust that a Just God will reconcile all things to Himself in the end.

95 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:41:05 PDT by 4truth
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Paul Ross, go to www.outreachjudaism.org and let Rabbi Singer teach you. Learn the truth from Rabbi Singer.

96 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:41:16 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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Charismatics and such sorts are full of crap.

Interesting you would say that in light of the fact that Jesus' twelve apostles were charasmatics. I'm sure that you are also aware that every word of the New Testament was written by a charasmatic, a follower of Jesus who spoke in tongues. [Even Mary, the mother of God, spoke in tongues.] So I guess your opinion tells us more about you than it does about charasmatics.

97 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:44:07 PDT by 11th Earl of Mar
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And you can check out the Jews For Jesus web site, which debunks Rabbi Singer.

There has always been a " remnant" of Jews that have believed in Jesus, and Him being the Messiah. A Jewish friend of mine that joined " Jews For Jesus " 14 yrs ago has given me literature that shows they are growing by leaps and bounds world wide.

98 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:44:23 PDT by DreamWeaver
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Let the Rabbi teach you the truth at www.koshertorah.com

99 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:44:28 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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The most biblically literate people are the Orthodox Rabbis. You have never given them a chance.

100 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:45:33 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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Yeah, when we all know the only True Church was created in an Alabama trailer park in 1947.

Everyone else is, for sure, going to hell if they don't figure this out. Too bad for them, eh?

101 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:47:59 PDT by Hank Rearden
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It is especially hilarious to hear each religion call the others fake and made up.

It seems to be an ingrained tradition. We've been doing it for centuries, and it's probably started more wars than any other cause.

It's still the source of hotspots around the world from the Middle East to Northern Ireland.

Pakistan and India could take their religious dispute nuclear, which would be less hilarious.

I think the religious threads on FR probably do more harm than good. It divides people who are otherwise united on political issues, and I haven't seen anyone change their views because of a thread.

102 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:49:09 PDT by Dog Gone
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But I've seen Charasmatic nutballs who for all the world seem like they've got MUCH better pot than the rest of us. I fail to see how this improves our political reality.

103 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:49:21 PDT by Hank Rearden
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Gee, I'd just love to sit here and read all that, then let it soak in and redeem me. But I have to go wash the cat. Darn.

104 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:50:17 PDT by Hank Rearden
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Hank you need to seek the truth from Rabbi Singer.

105 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:51:57 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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"I understand the metaphor: can you appreciate the irony? There is nothing Christian about W's signature of the death warrants of 152 (?) people. This is hypocrisy in its most sublime form."

I do not see this as hypocrisy as these executed people took the lives of others. I assume you in agreement with the President against the millions of aborted innocent lives going on in America now, right?

106 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:52:30 PDT by 4truth
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I think the religious threads on FR probably do more harm than good. It divides people who are otherwise united on political issues, and I haven't seen anyone change their views because of a thread.

Actually in all seriousness, I think you are probably right about that.

107 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:53:06 PDT by jlogajan
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Col. Mustard (there...is that better? lol), you say The rest of your post says more about you, than it does about the Catholic Church.

You now compound your support of a Heresy -- Pleagianism -- by resorting to a couple calassic Fallacies -- 'Red Herring' (changing the subject without addressing the question presented), and Ad Hominem (you attack me personally, yet -- not surpisingly in a very vague way).

Friend, you MIGHT be able to blow some smoke down here, but in front of the Great Judge, NONE OF THAT WILL WORK!!!

Thanks, Golden.

108 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:54:28 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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I don't think it was intended to redeem anyone, Hank. It was written to "believers." I just thought it might interest you because of the references to the founding of our political make-up as a Republic. I was wrong, and won't tag you again. Freegards anyway.

109 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:57:49 PDT by 4truth
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Ever see a 'conservative' nutball...or a 'Republican' nutball?...just because some charismatics are 'nutballs', as you say, doesn't change the reality of the real thing.

I have to leave....a pressing family obligation....but tonight I hope to have time to address this issue further.

But here's one more point. Luther 'rediscovered' the scriptural truths to do with salvation coming by faith alone, apart from works....he arrived at this conclusion by taking the verses to do with salvation literally...this changed the world of that day, and we are still experiencing the blessings of that discovery.

But he singularly failed to take the scripture to do with prophecy and the nation of Israel literally, and it led him to great error...he became an awful anti-semite...for which the world is still paying a heavy price.

More tonight. Later.

110 Posted on 07/02/2001 10:57:52 PDT by EternalVigilance
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Orthodox Jews have the highest level of Biblical accuracy.

Especially when Isaiah 53 is concerned, huh?

111 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:00:31 PDT by AlGone2001
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I think that one reason Charasmatics posess a higher degree of Biblical knowledge, if true, is that they believe that God's word is for them, today. If one believes that God's word hold the solutions you need for their life, they will read it, study it, memorize it and use it.

Charsmatics do not believe that the promises of God passed away with the Old Testament or that the Spirit quit moving powerfully when the last apostle died.

They believe, hopefully, that the Spirit is just as alive today as he was in the "early church." [Personally I don't see any Scripture that teaches us that there is an "early church" where God's Spirit moves powerfully and a "later church" where God promises not to move powerfully.]

It is sad to see the moral and spiritual decline of all the major denominations. But when you deny the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Truth, what can you expect?

112 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:02:26 PDT by 11th Earl of Mar
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How can you be sure all of those folks were actually guilty? And, do you remember Karla Faye Tucker? W's great evil lies in the fact that he does not value human life. The death penalty as a deterrent to crime is a myth, the equality of the system is dubious, and the sheer fallibility of our human judgement is so great that innocents have almost certainly been put to death. W's got more blood on his hands than any of our leaders, and yet professes himself a christian. He's a laughable hypocrite. What's more, i think it's important for me to mention, that i am indeed in favor of the death penalty, and even believe it should be extended to punish other violent acts.

113 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:04:13 PDT by maggiesfarm
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RE: "Biblical accuracy"

Jumbo Shrimp

Military Intelligence, etc.

114 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:06:46 PDT by Eddeche
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Col. Mustard
You know what seasoned troops are, no? They've been mustard by their commander, then assalted, peppered, and battered by the enemy.

I never committed Pelagianism. I merely suggested that one's behaviour in this life does have some impact on one's destination in the next life. If you don't like that idea, your beef is not with me, but with a young rabbi named Jesus, the Nazorean. You will find His thoughts on the matter in the Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 25. Look it up. Read. Learn. Believe.

For you to talk about logical fallacies is quite ironic. Re read your own post #72. It is, among other things, a straw man arguement from start to finish.

AB

115 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:10:05 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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How about "Saint Paul" ?

116 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:10:58 PDT by maggiesfarm
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It was the religious zealots of Jesus day who wanted to kill Him off. Perhaps this is just the only method available now that He is Spirit? Sad to watch though.

117 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:12:04 PDT by 4truth
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Couple of differences with the Charismatic "denomination" as opposed to a Pentecostal/Apostolic one. They believe one can learn to speak in tongues, when Acts 2:4 says "as the Spirit gave the utterance". Many do not believe in Baptism in the Name of Jesus (as the Apostles did, nine references in the NT) and many do not believe in outward holiness standards.

There is no doubt many Charismatics are chock full of the Holy Ghost and love God immensely and are loving and decent people. Also, it doesn't surprise me that their knowledge of the Bible is better than others...Most "theologians" and mainline churches today have no clue about what they're talking about.

118 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:18:19 PDT by GuillermoX
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"I was raised to believe Satan was real, but nobody ever satisfactorily explained to me where he actually lives, how he pulls off the invisibility trick, and where he gets his groceries."

I'll give it a try:

Within the atmospheric circumference of the earth; he is a spirit; by munching on the brains of people who don't believe he exists.

119 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:18:38 PDT by A2J
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Rabbi Singer deals with Isiaih 53 on his web site at www.outreachjudaism.org and proves that the church's explanation of Isaiah 53 is incorrect

120 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:20:29 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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"I'm still trying to figure out how this fits into the politically-oriented nature of FreeRepublic.com."

Because Free Republic believes in something you apparently have not heard of, free speech, therefore these types of threads are very welcome.

If you don't want to play, go play somewhere else.

121 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:21:13 PDT by A2J
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"W's great evil lies in the fact that he does not value human life. "

We are not gods who can mete out perfect justice in this life, but we have come up with an American system that is law. George Bush was elected to uphold the law, remember? But because we do value life, Bush and I stand opposed to abortion on a mass scale and from allowing murderers to finish their lives in prison, getting degrees, enjoying nutritious meals and watching TV and all that stuff when their innocent victims had their lives snuffed out. We just see it differently, Maggie, and agree to disagree. Isn't it nice to express our opinions though?

122 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:22:10 PDT by 4truth
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According to the Barna Research Group (BRG), when it comes to having biblically sound beliefs, adults who attend charismatic and nondenominational Protestant churches emerged "at the top of the continuum"

I'd love to see their belief meter! And where did they use the probe? Ouch!

123 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:23:54 PDT by patlaw_guy
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If you are a GOOD Catholic, then you are Pelagian. If you are NOT Pelagian, then you are NOT a good Catholic. This is according the Doctrines, articulated in the Council of Trent, the Church's response to the Reformation, that have NEVER been repudiated.

If you are NOT Pelagian, then you are in the WRONG 'Church.'

Sounds like you are confused, another 'Classic Catholic,' who always insists on Having His Cake & Eating It Too!!

Thanks, Golden.

ps, You are Somewhat right about the Catholics not throwing out books. In fact, they mistakenly added the Apocrypha during the Council of Trent, to show the Protestants that they had the 'Right Bible.' Even as they -- IRONICALLY -- refused to accept the Original as infallible, in The First Place.

But then again, if they had done that, they would have Accepted Luther's 99 Theses in the FIRST PLACE, and saved themselves 500 years of vain striving!!! Brahahahahaha!!

124 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:26:09 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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They believe, hopefully, that the Spirit is just as alive today as he was in the "early church." [Personally I don't see any Scripture that teaches us that there is an "early church" where God's Spirit moves powerfully and a "later church" where God promises not to move powerfully.]

Thanks!  Here is a passage from 1 Corinthians 13 that those opposed to the modern use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit can not defeat.  Obviously, I used the red to make my point.

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Those opposed to the use of the gifts will use 1 Corinthians to do so.  But they usually stop at verse 11.  When they do this, they seem to make their point,  but not for the one who continues to read in search of the truth.

We see in verse 12 that Paul tells us that when that which is perfect is come, we shall know as also we are known.

Those opposed to the use of the gifts today basically say that the completion of the scriptural writings is that which is perfect.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that the Word of God is inerrant.  But in saying that, I must also make every attempt to honor what it says.  It says that when the perfect has come, I shall know as also I am known.  I'd like for someone to demonstrate to me how that know as also they are known.  Really!

125 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:26:22 PDT by AlGone2001
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Agreed! Sorry to get so off topic: that Silvana Lupetti post freaked me out.

126 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:26:34 PDT by maggiesfarm
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Master Wu's Kung Fu is much stronger than your Kung Fu.

127 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:27:36 PDT by dead
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Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Mark 9;1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." Question: Did Jesus return before all of his listeners tasted death, as he said he would? Answer for yourself.

128 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:27:53 PDT by Moose_Leonard
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For your entertainment:

Thermodynamics Of Hell

The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry midterm. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues via the Internet, which is of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law, (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

You need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate of which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rater faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Teresa Banyan during my Freshman year, "...that it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you.", and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then, #2 cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze.

The student received the only "A" given.

130 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:28:54 PDT by scottiewottie
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THANKS RUBYBOOBRAINS, FOR RUINING THE THREAD WITH TEN THOUSAND PICTURES OF THE SAME THING. YOU COULDN'T JUST LEAVE ONE PICTURE AND LET IT GO. NOW EVERYONE WITH A SMALLER COMPUTER CAN'T DOWNLOAD IT.

I GUESS SELFISHNESS HAS ITS OWN REWARDS...OR WAS IT IDIOCY?

IN DISGUST, GOLDEN

131 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:33:52 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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THANKS RUBYBOOBRAINS, FOR RUINING THE THREAD WITH TEN THOUSAND PICTURES OF THE SAME THING. YOU COULDN'T JUST LEAVE ONE PICTURE AND LET IT GO. NOW EVERYONE WITH A SMALLER COMPUTER CAN'T DOWNLOAD IT.

I GUESS SELFISHNESS HAS ITS OWN REWARDS...OR WAS IT IDIOCY?

IN DISGUST, GOLDEN

132 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:34:06 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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Sounds like you are confused

Someone is confused, here, O Master of the Logical Fallacy and Historical Error. Not I, though. I suggest you read something other than Jack Chick comics. They're funny enough in their own peculiar way, but they were written by people whose ignorance is only exceeded by their arrogance. BTW, what do you think of Matt. 25?

AB

133 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:41:44 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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I Cor: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face

[AG2001]Those opposed to the use of the gifts today basically say that the completion of the scriptural writings is that which is perfect.

I have heard the same argument. But I Cor. clearly states that these things will pass away when we see him "face to face." That sounds like heaven to me not today's church.

134 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:45:36 PDT by 11th Earl of Mar
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Mormons are a two-tiered cult, that nominally worships Christ, but then superimposes on those teachings, the Book of Mormon,...

Of course, I would imagine that the Jews feel pretty much the same way about the Christians having superimposed the New Testament onto the Old Testament.

... which was plagiarized from a 'novel' of the era by Joseph Smith.

This theory has consistently been demonstrated to be hogwash. Even Fawn Brodie has said so.

It REJECTS the Bible where the Book of Mormon's teachings conflict.

Well, if you had two sets of books, one claiming to be a direct revelation of God, and another claiming to be the translations and re-translations of various groups of scholars going back 2000 years and more, which set would you pay more attention to in the case of perceived conflicts of teachings?

They deny the individual walk with Christ, and bearing our own crosses,...

If this is the case, the statistics in post #18 would seem to demonstrate that a bunch of Mormons don't really know what it is that they believe. In any case, it's hard to take statements like this seriously when Mormons claim to believe that the Lord has told them

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Why would a people that denies an "individual walk with Christ" claim to believe such a thing?

... and that the salvation comes from Jesus's forgiveness alone.

Is repentance involved in this process at all, or does Jesus just forgive everyone for everything, regardless?

They limit salvation to the 'male' of the family, who must 'pull-through' any women-folk and family members he chooses.

Not quite. The do limit salvation (in Mormon terms, we're talking about obtaining celestial glory) to married couples, since Paul has stated, "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." No man obtains celestial glory without a woman at his side, and vice versa.

They also teach that prosperity is a prerequisite mark of grace from God, and that you should be 'making it' if you're saved.

Well, this makes it extremely clear that you don't have a clue as to what the LDS Church teaches. Any member of the LDS Church who could read Hugh Nibley's "Approaching Zion", wherein the doctrine of the Law of Consecration is commented on extensively, and the topic of the obtaining of wealth is touched on repeatedly (to say nothing of the obvious, repeated lesson and not be immediately and completely disabused of any such notion simply isn't paying attention. (As if he's the only member of the church to say so.)

Many of the members put on the dog, run up the credit cards, etc., just to show how saved they are.

These members who are supposedly doing so because the Church supposedly teaches them to do so have somehow missed the urgings from LDS General Authorities over the years to stay out of debt as much as possible.

Do your own credibility a favor, and leave explanations regarding what Mormons believe to actual Mormons, OK?

135 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:49:46 PDT by CubicleGuy
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Do you EVER answer a question directly? Your approach seems to be to disagree, then change the subject, or VAGUELY insinuate that the person you are responding to isn't correct, WITHOUT EVER ANWERING HIS EXPLICIT POINT!!!!! Of course you round this out by adding a few personal insults to cover the fact that you have NOT COVERED THE FACTS!!

From how this 'conversation' is proceeding, I think it is FAIR to say I Know Catholic Doctrine and History FAR BETTER than you!! Either that, or you are ashamed of it.

Life must be frustrating, with your points and beliefs ALL articulated in a series of rambling statements, defended by an endless stream of Ad Hominem insults.

Tired of running for the shadows every time a real discussion breaks out? I bet you are!!! BRAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Your Friend, Golden

136 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:51:53 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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No they don't but I bet they have the highest level of women killing their children and other mental problems.

The Church of Christ (Andrea Yates) is NOT charismatic.

137 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:52:39 PDT by DallasDeb
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Death: "separation from the LORD God for eternity"; this is cast into outer darkness

Even though many have died, leaving the physical body, their spirits have not tasted death yet! Death or the Lake of Fire are reserved for Judgment Day -- the day that Yeshua opens the "Lambs Book of Life!"

138 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:53:04 PDT by TrueBeliever9
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No they don't but I bet they have the highest level of women killing their children and other mental problems.

The Church of Christ (Andrea Yates) is NOT charismatic. it is extremely judgmental, legalistic, and dictates much non-Biblical rules and regulations (e.g., no dancing, no playing cards, no drinking, no gambling).

139 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:53:56 PDT by DallasDeb
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well said ... why people cannot simply avoid posts that do not interest them is amazing ... if someone is "pinged" in error, well then one can still avoid the thread

140 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:54:53 PDT by Bobby777
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Why would they bother to ask LDS all the other questions and not if LDS are absolutely committed to Christianity?

Because, by their own teachings, Mormans are NOT Christians.

141 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:55:07 PDT by DallasDeb
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Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Mark 9;1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." Question: Did Jesus return before all of his listeners tasted death, as he said he would? Answer for yourself.

Well, well, well.....lookie here....All red text has been highlighted by me, and are not necessarily the words of Jesus.

What you are failing to consider here is that the writing continued on into the next chapter...I'll show you.

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 17:1
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

This very story was told three times in scripture.  In each account, the writer made sure to count the days after the prophesy was given.  In fact, the other two stories include the whole story in one chapter.

Christ told them that some would see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.  He did not say that all would see it.  This is why Matthew, Mark and Luke all made sure to say that a certain number of days had passed since the date the prophesy was made.  There was no reason to include the number of days, save that the writers understood that it was in reference to the prophecy of Christ Jesus.

Here are the other examples, to make my point:

Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Mark 9:3
And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

Mark 9:4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
.....................................

Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:28
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

Luke 9:29
And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering.

Luke 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Luke 9:31
Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Luke 9:32
But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

Luke 9:33
And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

Please return with more challenges. And, do get back to Isaiah 53, before I jump on it.

142 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:57:12 PDT by AlGone2001
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one question: Is Zion: a) Jerusalem, Israel or b) Independence, Missouri or c) Salt Lake City, Utah?

I won't pull you into a long debate ... I'm just wondering what you've been taught ... a, b or c?

143 Posted on 07/02/2001 11:58:26 PDT by Bobby777
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not to mention Acts of the Apostles 1:6-11 ... especially the last two verses, 10-11 ...

144 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:00:17 PDT by Bobby777
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I have heard the same argument. But I Cor. clearly states that these things will pass away when we see him "face to face." That sounds like heaven to me not today's church.

I hope you know that this is what I wrote. I've heard some say that face-to-face is a figure of speech, and we should look no further, but the issue of knowing as we are known is the real key to the passage. This really defines face-to-face, doesn't it?

145 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:00:54 PDT by AlGone2001
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Do you EVER answer a question directly?
I most certainly do. See my first post on this topic. Does it get any more direct than "No"? Then you come along, with ignorant attacks on what you think the Catholic Church teaches, and the truly puerile tactic of insulting my screen name. For you to accuse anyone of logic problems is, well, preposterous. Did you know that the Council of Trent anathematizes Pelagianism? No? Go read it. Altavista is your friend. Good day.

AB

146 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:04:00 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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think he [W]would have stayed Christ's execution? commuted the sentence?

You're an idiot (meaning foolish, ignorant person), and hardly worth even responding to. You also must not be a Christian, because, if you were, you would understand that it was God's intention that Christ die on the cross for our sins so that we may have everlasting life in heaven. He (Christ) is our perfect sacrifice for our sins. Maybe you'll come to understand that in your heart one of these days.

BTW, been disrupting here only since 4/01--enjoying yourself?

147 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:04:18 PDT by DallasDeb
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LOL! Yeah, I thought it might with some folks, but just wanted to shake up things a little. Prophets are seldom appreciated by their contemporaries, but at least they are never dull, huh?

148 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:05:11 PDT by 4truth
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not to mention Acts of the Apostles 1:6-11 ... especially the last two verses, 10-11 ...

That's a good verse. The real point in Matthew, and the reason that I like to use it with a (non-Christian) Jew, is that it clarifies that the law and the prophets had become servant to Christ.

Moshe and Elijah were the Deans of the Law and Prophets, weren't they?

Jesus had told us that the Law and the Prophets bare record of Him. He was simply validating it to those who would most need that knowledge after He was gone. It was a purposed move.

149 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:06:28 PDT by AlGone2001
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You are absolutely correct about Mormons. And other things, as well--I've read some of your responses on other threads. A little tactfulness might help your cause.

150 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:07:02 PDT by DallasDeb
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Oops. Helps to make the paragraph more comprehensible when the initial thought is completed, rather than in leaving it incomplete when sidetracked.

Let's try it again:

Well, this makes it extremely clear that you don't have a clue as to what the LDS Church teaches. Any member of the LDS Church who could read Hugh Nibley's "Approaching Zion", wherein the doctrine of the Law of Consecration is commented on extensively, and the topic of the obtaining of wealth is touched on repeatedly and not be immediately and completely disabused of any such notion simply isn't paying attention. (As if he's the only member of the church to say so.)

Which is to say nothing of the obvious, repeated lesson found in the Book of Mormon, where, as Nibley puts it

Repeatedly in the Book of Mormon we are told that when people "set their hearts upon riches," their doom is sealed.

151 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:12:24 PDT by CubicleGuy
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>>>Go to Rabbi Singer's web-site and access the sub-title where Rav singer answers questions. You will be suprised to hear what Rav Singer has to say. Let the Rabbi teach you the things that the church will not tell you.<<<

Moose, you bring up an interesting point that I am always making to Christians! Because they lost their "Hebrew Roots" they lost so much of the richness of what Yeshua spoke. Yeshua spoke to Jews, for He came to the lost house of Israel; therefore the Jews knew what He was saying. Rabbi Paul went to the gentiles by direction of the Holy Spirit, and I am sure Rabbi Paul's knowledge of Torah was instrumental in bringing understanding to the early gentile Christians.

For example: When Yeshua said, "I AM the Way, I AM the Truth, and I AM the Life!"

The Jews listening to Him knew that He was saying: "I AM The Law, The Word of YHVH!" "I AM The Love of YHVH (Jakin)* and The Fear [Awe] of YHVH (Boaz)* I AM the Life of YHVH -- The Light of the World and The Light of the World to Come!

Jakin and Boaz were the two pillars on each side of the entrance to the Temple: Jakin representing "The Love of YHVH" and Boaz representing "The Fear [Awe] of YHVH

152 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:13:07 PDT by TrueBeliever9
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a figure of speech

It is the most common excuse to deny passages of the Bible. Liberals use this excuse and so do many "conservatives" who deny God's power and promises. I [you and I] have decided to simply stand on the word. It is much simpler.

153 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:15:21 PDT by 11th Earl of Mar
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I live by the admonition of Paul, to prove all things and to hold on to that which is good.(I Thes. 5:21)

Then what say you about Gal 1:8-9, where PAUL admonishes us: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! [9] As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"?

Test your own {Mormon) teachings. Isn't it true that the Mormon teachings deny that Jesus is the son of God? And I don't mean he is the son of God like we are sons and daughters of God, but rather he was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit? And don't you believe, by your teachings, that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer (Satan)?

154 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:18:28 PDT by DallasDeb
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Will you ping me if you get an answer from Scottie, please? I've got to go, but interested in the exchange. Thanx.

155 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:29:12 PDT by 4truth
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Lately we've been visiting non-Mainline Protestant Churches every Sunday because our LIBERAL Presbyterian pastor agrees with every LIBERAL vote that has passed lately, including gay unions, etc. It's been REFRESHING, spiritual, and uplifting. BTW, these churches have been full, as opposed to our empty Presbyterian Church.

156 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:32:23 PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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W's got more blood on his hands than any of our leaders, and yet professes himself a christian.

Barbra Streisand (BS)! I have read that more were put to death during Ann Richards' (Democratic Governor before W) office than W's. He upheld the law of the citizens of Texas.

If you have a Bible, go back and read Genesis 9:5-6. In it, God makes a covenant with Noah (i.e., a covenant with all of mankind--not just the Jews or the Christians or the Moslems, etc., because there were none at that time, but with all of mankind). It reads,

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too. I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. [6] "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man . . ."

157 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:32:39 PDT by DallasDeb
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Is Zion: a) Jerusalem, Israel or b) Independence, Missouri or c) Salt Lake City, Utah?

I'll go with answer B, Regis. And that's my final answer.

As we understand it, Jerusalem and Zion are two distinct places.

And I could always dodge the issue by mentioning that according to the Doctrine and Covenants, Zion is simply anyplace where "the pure in heart" are to be found.

158 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:33:15 PDT by CubicleGuy
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FlusteredBustard: Puerile? Brahaha...nice one!

You do NOT know your history. If you are trusting the online Catholic Encyclopedia as your first introduction to Pelagianism, they have let you down...What a Shock!!

'Pelagianism,' like many other Heresies, stands for one CENTRAL theme -- that man, who still has a divine spark inside, gets to Heaven through his OWN WORK, after aknowledging God. Certainly, the Pelagians had many other ideas too, but that is the main one.

The Bible does NOT teach this idea, so the Coucil of Trent made the Church's works and own histories and Papal statements the EQUAL of Holy Writ. This was simply so they could claim am absolutely un-biblical idea as being 'from God. 'Theolologically, you don't find any larger errors than that.

Are you SERIOUSLY challenging my thesis, that the Council of Trent does not take that stand? If you are, then you are not familiar with it, or the Articles developed from it. Not only that, but you are misleading the credulous and the uneducated in this room. Shame on You!!

I re-read all your posts, in vain. You nowhere directly answer questions, citing logical or historical support for your positions.

AB, being Catholic does NOT immunize one from all the hard questions. You need to learn your Church's tenents and history. 'Altavista' searches are not nearly the same thing as owning a rather excellent library of the history of all the churches.

Thanks, Golden

159 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:37:28 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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Forget about Ravi Zacharias. You need Rabbi Tovia Singer at www.outreach Judaism.org

What for? Can he explain and defend Christianity better than Ravi Zacharias?

160 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:54:10 PDT by Steve0113
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These statistics couldn't be right. Everyone knows that there are more Baptists than people;>)

161 Posted on 07/02/2001 12:56:05 PDT by yeswecan
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How can you be sure all of those folks were actually guilty? ... W's great evil lies in the fact that he does not value human life. ... W's got more blood on his hands than any of our leaders,

Get your facts straight. Under Texas law, the governor CANNOT commute a death sentence except on the recommendation of a review panel. The panel made no such recommendation in Tucker's case. A governor can postpone an execution ONCE, and only for 30 days, but that is all he can do.

Whether W wanted those executions to happen or not is irrelevant. He had no power to stop them.

162 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:03:54 PDT by Steve0113
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Sir (or ma'am, as the case may be):
Since you have showed no inclination to do anything other than knock down straw men, distort the history and teaching of the Catholic Church, and evade the one question I have posed to you, I shall have nothing further to do with you.

AB

One of your fellow protestants admonished you about "tact". I suggest you learn the meaning of the word.

163 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:05:58 PDT by ArrogantBustard
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>>>Isn't it true that the Mormon teachings deny that Jesus is the son of God? And I don't mean he is the son of God like we are sons and daughters of God, but rather he was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit? And don't you believe, by your teachings, that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer (Satan)?<<<

Mormons believe that an "angel named Moroni" left some gold tablets in upstate New York, and that these tablets were descovered by Joseph Smith. From these tablets Smith translated the Book of Mormon, which is the foundation upon which Mormonism is built. Two other books: "Doctine and Covenants" and "Pearl of Great Price" are considered divinely inspired.

Mormons do not believe that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Mormons must work their way to Heaven ("Mormon Doctrine," by B.R. Conkie, Salt Lake City, 1958, p.191). Mormonism teaches that God is not the "only" god, and that we all have the potential of becoming gods (Ibid, p. 576). God, according to Mormonism, is not just Spirit, but has "...a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's." (The Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22) They teach, "As we are, He was. As He is we shall become." ("The King Follett Discourse," Joseph Smith, p.9)

164 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:07:25 PDT by TrueBeliever9
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as I promised I won't drag out the debate. thanks for answering though.

165 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:09:19 PDT by Bobby777
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>>>Let the Rabbi teach you the truth at www.koshertorah.com<<<

See your www.koshertorah.com and raise you www.levitt.com

166 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:16:48 PDT by TrueBeliever9
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And don't you believe, by your teachings, that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer (Satan)?

It's worse than that, Deb: we believe that you are the sister of Lucifer.

(And, to clarify, I, also, am the brother of Lucifer, as well as being the brother of Jesus, as are you. We are all the spiritual offspring of God the Father, and we are the "morning stars" who "sang together" and "shouted for joy" when God "laid the foundations of the earth" [see Job 38].)

167 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:22:07 PDT by CubicleGuy
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Sir/Madame/Other? Straw men? What I have outlined is an accurate depiction, both historically and theologically, of the Catholic Church. This appears to be more than you can bear, for whatever reasons. I find people get 'incensed' as the last resort to a discredited position.

I tried 'tact,' humor, clarity, and directly asking for answers. I get obfustication, insults, and lots of Catholic 'attitude' in respone. Until you change the latter, your 'ignoring me' will only be a benefit to my overall sanguine mood!

golden

168 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:24:02 PDT by goldenapplesofthesun
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For the record: I don't know what the recipient of this post believes, but I am personally against the death penalty AND against abortion. We do not have the right to take life, period.

169 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:26:51 PDT by LibertyGirl77
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The 'Kingdom' (church) was established on the day of Pentecost, 33 AD. Many of those present when Jesus spoke these words, saw that day.

170 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:28:26 PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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"You need Rabbi Tovia Singer"

Was the "rabbi" with God when He created the heavens and the earth? How about when He set its pillars in place? Or what about when he formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, was your "rabbi" there?

Apparently you must think so, since you quote him more than you quote the Scriptures you claim he "knows."

Get your nose out of your rabbi's booty and read the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, for yourself and then make your own decision.

171 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:29:36 PDT by A2J
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With Zion also being a place for gathering, A, B, and C were and/or are Zion. So I say all of the above, based upon history, two definitions of the word Zion, prophecy fullfilled, and prophecy yet to be fullfilled.

172 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:43:02 PDT by scottiewottie
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It is the most common excuse to deny passages of the Bible. Liberals use this excuse and so do many "conservatives" who deny God's power and promises. I [you and I] have decided to simply stand on the word. It is much simpler.

So I take it you believe in the catholic teaching of transsubstantiation?

173 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:43:50 PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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"Interesting you would say that in light of the fact that Jesus' twelve apostles were charasmatics. I'm sure that you are also aware that every word of the New Testament was written by a charasmatic, a follower of Jesus who spoke in tongues. [Even Mary, the mother of God, spoke in tongues.] So I guess your opinion tells us more about you than it does about charasmatics."

But what happened?

As one who has been involved in the charismatic movement for nearly 30 years, I can tell you that the charismatics of today in no way resemble the "charismatics," as you call them, of the Early Church.

While charismatics pride themselves on being the ones enjoying the "fullness of the Spirit," by being "baptized in the Holy Spirit," they have allowed more heresies within their ranks than any other Christian sect.

By emphasizing esoteric (emotion and/or sensory) experiences, charismatics have introduced such NON-Scriptural doctrines as the "laughing revival," and the "faith movement," and such "superstars" as Benny Hinn, Rod Parsely, Jesse Duplantis, and Kenneth Copeland to name a few. Remember, Jim Jones was a charismatic, too.

And while I can hear you screaming about the so-called "Biblical accuracy," that Barna's poll purports, I can only say that accuracy and application are two entirely different issues.

174 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:53:45 PDT by A2J
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"We are all the spiritual offspring of God the Father, and we are the "morning stars" who "sang together" and "shouted for joy" when God "laid the foundations of the earth" [see Job 38]"

Says who?

175 Posted on 07/02/2001 13:57:47 PDT by A2J
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So I say all of the above, based upon history, two definitions of the word Zion, prophecy fullfilled, and prophecy yet to be fullfilled.

Yeah, well, I was given a multiple-choice, one-answer-only format, and I didn't want to have to go into a huge explanation. I figured I left myself an "out" by giving our definition of Zion meaning the pure in heart.

Just as there are countless cities on the map today that would aptly be named Babylon, so will there be more than one Zion eventually.

176 Posted on 07/02/2001 14:14:34 PDT by CubicleGuy
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Says who?

God, by way of revelation to modern prophets.

Who do you think the "morning stars" were who "sang together" and who "all the sons of God" were who "shouted for joy" when the foundations of the earth were laid?

It was us. We couldn't wait to get here.

177 Posted on 07/02/2001 14:25:40 PDT by CubicleGuy
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Not quite sure why you bumped me. I see no surprises here.

178 Posted on 07/02/2001 14:31:21 PDT by Salman
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