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For Mustafa Sehic and Vahdet Alic, yesterday's appearance by Slobodan Milosevic at The Hague comes almost six years too late.
Their bones lie scattered across an east Bosnian hillside, long ago stripped of their flesh by woodland animals scavenging for food.
Before Milosevic came to power in the late 1980s in a frenzy of Serb nationalism, both were Yugoslav children barely out of their teens growing up in the peaceful silver-mining town of Srebrenica.
In 1995 they were among the estimated 7,000 Muslim men and boys rounded up and massacred by Bosnian Serbs in a three-day orgy of killing.
Mustafa and Vahdet probably died during the night of July 12 or 13 after the Bosnian Serbs stormed the United Nations-declared safe haven.
Through that autumn their bodies lay in the mountain meadow hidden from view. Around them the corpses of dozens more Srebrenica men rotted in the sun.
It was the largest massacre in the Balkan wars of the '90s and the worst atrocity in Europe since World War II.
While Milosevic appears in The Hague on charges only related to Kosovo, UN prosecutors hope to extend the indictment to include Srebrenica and other war crimes in Bosnia and Croatia.
In the region itself, change has been extremely slow. A handful of Muslim families have returned to the town, where Serb nationalists continue to hold sway.
But talk of the massacre is still taboo among Serbs, many of whom still feel they are the primary victims of the war. They refuse to admit that thousands of Muslims were butchered nearby.
Interspersed among the houses in Kravice, a few kilometres across the hills from Srebrenica, are the burnt-out shells of homes where Muslims used to live.
The valley was almost deserted on Monday except for a farmer driving oxen along a lane. Another farmer, a Serb, stood outside his house watching suspiciously. Asked about the bodies of the Muslims on the hillside, he shrugged. At that moment an old Serbian woman rounded the corner with a young girl. "You should go back," the woman said. "There is nobody up there, nobody at all."
Looking down from the top of the hill there were bodies as far as the eye could see. Some corpses still had their old Yugoslav identity cards in the pockets of their trousers. Mustafa was born on August 1, 1973, Vahdet on January 8, 1969.
Down below in the idyllic, green valley, Serbs moved back into their tiny villages that spring. They ignore the burnt-out Muslim houses around them, and even among themselves seldom talk of the bodies on the hillside.
If there were bodies they were of soldiers, they said, ignoring the civilian clothes and the fact that some corpses still have their hands tied up with wire.
The Telegraph, London
Yeah, but we know Slobo's innocent, right? Ramsey Clark says so.
C'mon Vooch, I need to hear you say these were more victims of Naser Oric, just for old time's sake.
Didn't Clinton and Albright claim that 200,000 were killed in 1998 alone? I don't have that big of a problem about Milosovic answering for his crimes . . . when will Slick Willy answer for his?
Another validation of the effectiveness of Muslim propaganda, foisted relentlessly on the ignorant.
Ah yes, the Serbs are always the peace-loving innocent victims of everyone else who've never harmed anyone. That's the attitude that's left them with an economy looted by Milosevic and his cronies and lots of neighbors who'd love to kill every Serb they can reach.
Hmm, well let me shine on your parade...having served in Bosnia for a year, you always knew when you were in the Croatian parts of places like Tuzla...the big white washed swastikas on each house gave that away...something don't change. I really like my photo of the Iranian culture ministry in Sarejevo and all the Mujahadin that were married off to Musli Bosnian women was a nice touch...that way Klinanazi could say with a straight face that there were no more Afghans and Iranians and Turks there...just those dark skinned, newly minted Bosniak citizens.
According to the stories from some of the local Musli vets...fighting in body waves with one magazine of ammunition in your rifle against Serb machine guns will get you the 3-6K dead in one week, actually more like one day.
On Iron Castle, a former Serb post south of Tuzla, 50 Serb artillery men kept a Musli Brigade back for a year. Only after the cease fire did they leave the mountain. But as for all those Musli farmers drafted to serve Izi and his fanatics, they came home to empty promises and no homes..all their farms were confiscated by the very government they were fighting for...boy doesn't that suck. We had enough of them begging for bread and left over rations, since some didn't even have their homes anymore...got to put those newly minted Bosniak Muhaj somewhere.
Those neighbors: Croat, Bosniak Musli and Alabanian have been trying to kill every Serb they could catch for 4 centuaries...Milosovic had little to do with that, or are you blaming him for Tujamen, Izi and the KLA?
Julius Strauss seems to be taking over from Kurt Shrok (sp?) as the condiut of misinformation.
Clever taking the story of two bodies who "may have been killed...." and then spinning it into a race baiting hate mongering rehash of long since discredited gossip and rumour.
come on Hoppie, even you aren't falling for this worthless tripe
If Molosivic stands trial..Clinton definitly should, especially since it was his idea for American Citizens to be answerable to an International Court. Lets let the Court have Clinton first.. if they do a good job, we'll let them have Ted Kennedy or Hillery next ! Marobe PS Happy Fourth fellow Patriots !
To me and most American's this is all very confusing. Why do the Serbs hate the Albanians, why do the Croats hate the Serbs, why do the Macedonians hate the Whatever's, etc, etc? Can someone recommend a source that helps folks to understand the region. From the pictures I have seen on the internet, the brutality and murder of civilians is unbelieveable.
...and lots of neighbors who'd love to kill every Serb they can reach.
And this is solely Milosevic's fault, right? They never even imagined something like that before he "invaded" their land?
"Blood and Vengeance" by Chuck Sudetic.
Focuses on Eastern Bosnia, but gives a good account of who has been killed by whom throughout history and how those events were used to motivate the lunacy of the '90s.
Doesn't have all the answers, but this account of a muslim family before and during the Bosnian war is a good place to start, as it doesn't suffer from the dry detachment of a pure history of the region.
You are right concerning the article. I read it over twice trying to link up with anything but images.
No luck.
As a propaganda piece it really is quite nice; two dead kids, sullen serbs, looking down on the whole picture which we are told is is [still] littered with bodies, which we are told were all innocent albanian civilians, etc. All images, none that can be cross checked or looked for in other sources (I still don't even know where this was supposed to be located other than Eastern Bosnia).
Even the title works!
Yes the script writers have definitely improved since '99.
well, ever since Kurt was killed "tragically" in a car accident (perhaps he wanted a bigger payoff and his handlers balked).......Jules has been doing a bang up job trying to fill his place.
You know Hoppie could just about get a job with these guys (but I think he already does as a "web advocate")
go to www.siri-us.com It is a DC based think tank of pretty decent conservative sensibility which has a load of information archived as well a first rate anaylst by the name of Ben Works.
I wouldn't read any book written prior to 1990. They are mostly all full of self interested blather designed to promote one side or another.
Why do Jews hate Nazis? Albanians, Croats and Bosnian Muslims took up arms and served the Nazis in WWII. The massacres of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and other ethnic groups were so horrific the Italian army, and some German units actually had to stop them. If you look at Albanian territorial aims on the KLA website you'll see a map of greater Albania that is very similar to the territory they were awarded by Nazi Germany.
The problems with the Croats go back to the rivarly between the Catholic and Orthodox churches and there is evidence that the Catholic Church did nothing to stop the genocide at Jasenovac and some high ranking churchmen in fact participated in the Ustashe government
The Bosnian Muslims are in fact Serbs who converted to Islam during the Turkish occupation in return for favors, land, wealth and social standing. Orthodox Serbs were exposed to massacres, high taxation, rape and worse of all the theft of their sons to serve as Janissaries. A similar story can be found in Greece and Bulgaria when you ask why they hate the Turks.
...it doesn't suffer from the dry detachment of a pure history...
For those who don't understand Newspeak, this means "not tied down by facts."
So you've read the book?
Which part in particular do you take issue with?
If you want a good neutral book, read
"The Balkans:nationalism, war and the great powers, 1804-1999" by the Czech journalist Misha Glenny
Ah yes, the Serbs are always the peace-loving innocent victims of everyone else who've never harmed anyone.
Come on LenS, you know better tham that, do you not find it strange that no Croat and Bosnian massacres has come to light, what the west is telling us is that muslims are the peace loving victims, I suggest there is crimes on both sides........ there always is, so lets not be so one sided about it.
THERES A KIND OF HUSH
There's a kind of hush
all over the hill tonight
All over the hill
you can hear the sounds of bodies in decay
You know what I mean
Just the two armies
and lots of body bags, in sight
Its time for a fire fight
Just holding my rifle....
A little story told to me by the producer of "Avoidable War,"
Obtained permission to tell the story here.
My coproducer a German television reporter went to visit the site in Doboj which was according to the muslim dominated government in Bosnia the scene of a brothel where muslim women were held captive and forced to serve as prostitutes for Serbian soldiers in December of 1992.
Lettmayer actually went to Doboj and visited the home of Milan Kerkez who was supposedly running this brothel along with his wife. when Lettmayer arrived however, he soon learned that Milan Kerkez was a reserve police officer who had been killed early in the war...... june 1992.
Lettmayer interviewed Milan's muslim neighbors on film and they spoke of him with obvious affection... angered that anyone would accuse him of running a brothel in their quiet little neighborhood, Milan's widow Aida Kerkez was also muslim and bitterly denounced the accusations.
Lettmayer follows her through her tiny little two bedroom bungalow where she lived with her mother and little daughter, one could see immideately how ludicrous was the story of a brothel at this site.
But when directors of stations which had originally carried the false report, were convinced that Lettmayer had successfully debunked the story, he was told that it was "just not possible to correct it on air."
My comment:
There were hundreds of stories like that.
These are old stories they are dragging up, makes it easier to convict Slobo.
And remember how many of these have already been debunked.
On the other hand, Holbrooks book "To end a war," might be worth a read, remember how he denied the US was helping the Bosnians and Croats getting weapons equipment and all that good stuff, in the book he admits that indeed the US did help, and long before the wars started.
If there were bodies they were of soldiers, they said, ignoring the civilian clothes and the fact that some corpses still have their hands tied up with wire
And if Julius Strauss actually cared to come closer to those bodies back in 1996 he would have found the remains of those with their hands tied with wire right next to the remains of those with rifles and other weapons next to them.
Now whence came the weapons and who were the victims with their hands tied and who were those with rifles? ID cards seem to suggest, the bodies belonged to Muslims, but were they?
Julius also presuposes that, just as in Kosovo, all the members of the Muslim militia actually wore uniforms, or perhaps some laminated military ID cards! In Bosnia in those days you could hardly get coffee or sugar, and he would have them all wear identical (issued?) unfiroms and laminated ID cards if they were other than "civilians." Hello?
The best part is his statement: [Srebrenica is] "the worst atrocity in Europe since World War II"
Mind you, the "original" total was 11,000, not 7,000. Downtown Tuzla, right next to the "Old Town" (with minarettes and cobblestones) had a huge sign on the wall in 1996 with the 11K figure. What happened? Well, the unidentified (or unidentifiable?) remains of some estimated 4,000 people are in Tuzla (I hope they have refrigerators big enough for that), which begs the question -- what about the 7,000 others? Obviously, they are still in the field, but how do they know that it's 7,000? Because 11 - 4 = 7, yet Julius obviously didn't go to school on the day when they taught addition and subtraction, because he parrots the cliche 7,000 victims. If it is 7,000, then 7 - 4 = 3, i.e. the scattered bodies (unattended?) must add up to 3,000. If that's the case, what happened to those 4,000 from the original 11,000? See, things can get rather "fuzzy" (a, "fuzzy math!").
Most importantly, when was the last census done in Bosnia? IN 1991, before the war. So, how do we know how many people were in Srebrenica, how many left, how many died of natural causes, etc. The answer is, we don't. Survivors, who fought their way through Serb territory to Tuzla, who bragged about it on Bosnian Muslim TV, are accounted for? How many of them made it to Tuzla? Fuzzy just got fuzzier...
Most importantly, the I though that genocide is the highest form of crime that can be committed. It is a planned and systematic elimination, partial or whole, of an ethnic group or culutre. In that case, Julius is also wrong on the "worst atrocity in Europe since World War II." By definition, the expulsion, ethnic cleansing of some 250,000 Serbs from Croatia is as close to genocide as the expulsion of over 90% of Serbs from Kosovo under the same general who did the 1995 Croatian "cleaning," Agim Ceku (KLA).
If you check the statistics of Croatia, they would have you believe that nothing has changed since 1991. Some sites provide estimated data (1998). In both cases, the number of Serbs (some list them as "Orthodox," avoiding the name altogether)is set at 11 to 12% of the population (1998 estimate) of 4,5 million. So, in 1991 there were about 12% Serbs in the census, and now, after the expulsion of an estimated 250,000 there are still 12% Serbs ("Orthodox") in Croatia! Yet we know that hadrly any of the refugees from Krayina have returned since 1995.
This is a blatant proof of how the "good guys" falsify everything to make themselves look good. On paper, no net change of the Serb/"Orthodox" population is ackowledged yet it is a documented fact that the entie Krayina region was ethnically cleansed of Serbs -- the worst It was the largest massacre in the Balkan wars of the which, by definition, fits Strauss' "worst atrocity in Europe since World War II" category.
But we all know why all this is resurfacing -- the old, washed out stories, some proven false, others inconclusive, but definitely politically motivated, others outright lies (Haris Silajdzic and his 200,000...in 1994). It's all about stacking up charges against Miloshevich -- because the kangaroo "judges" are worried their charges may prove to be as difficult to prove as those trumped up charges Djindjich (may he hang one day) came up with on April 1, 2001 to arrest Miloshevich.
They haven't found 4,000 bodies rather 2,000.
The 4,000 number is concocted by David Rodhe who sees his Pulitzer being yanked.
1) Kofi Annan said 3,100 villagers were murdered by Naser (ir) Oric in & around Srebrenica by his special execution squads
2) The very same places where Nasir Oric execution squads operated are where the mass graves were discovered.
3) Less than 100 of the bodies found have been id'd. That is in stark contrast to the routine 75-80% id'd in other mass graves. Why haven't the bodies been id'd by the War Party ? BECAUSE theses bodies are those of Serb & Muslim villagers murder by Nasir Oric in his 2 year killing spree.
The UN must be shunned and moved out of the United States, these are very bad precidents to be setting, to aquire and set a trial for the leader of a soveriegn nation. This is a matter to be kept in the nation to which it belongs.
I've read all the books recommended by my liberal acquaintances in their efforts to convince me that we must go to war against the Serbs. However, I am a very good reader. I was persuaded that the opposite course was correct by reading their poor propaganda. The fuzzy-headed one-worlders think that everyone has the piss-poor epistemology thy do.
So what you're saying is you haven't read Sudetic's book.
Their bones lie scattered across an east Bosnian hillside, long ago stripped of their flesh by woodland animals scavenging for food.
From six years and thousand of miles away, anyone could make up anything. It's remarkable that two years have gone by since the end of the Air War and NATO involvement, and truckloads of evidence -- bones and bodies -- haven't ended up documented by the UN in official reports. Instead, we're still being inundated by unverified -- and frankly purple -- prose.
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