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This is in response to attempts to make light of Americans for their general lack of knowledge about Canada. But the more I learn about Canada, the more disgusted I become.
You see, Canada, compared to the United States, is not a free country.Canada lacks the same free speech absolutism found in America. Police have even gone so far as to listen in on private conversations in restaraunts to make sure there is no racist speech occurring--private conversations! And they made an arrest, as reported March 28th in the National Post! "Operation Napkin" is the stuff of police states.
Canada lacks the same protections for firearms owners. Registration is just a necessary step towards confiscation, anti-gun politicians don't make any secret of their intentions. If you doubt the effects of gun control, just look at the abysmal failures of the British and Australian experiments.
And what about Canada's infatuation with that Molson commercial? When I think of nationalism and beer together, the first thought that comes to mind is of Nazi Germany. I don't know how much sausage Canadians eat, but I believe you do wear liederhosen and listen to accordian music--so I am getting very worried. Add to that the increasingly oppressive police state, and you've got a very bad situation.
Is Canada slipping towards fascism? I'd say it's already there. The Prime Minister gets to decide when he wants to hold the elections! I don't know what that is, but it's not democracy! That's extreme compared to our minor problems in Florida.
When it comes to tastes in clothing and music, Canada has always been a few months behind America. But don't you think you're a few centuries behind when it comes to having a real Constitution with real guarantees for individual rights?
And don't forget that they come south for medical support they can't wait for up north - so much for socialized medicine.
There are 2 peoples living in Canada, the French and the Brits who descended from the losers in the American Revolution. The French all go to Florida in the winter and bitch that the Canadian dollar is worth only $.66 in real money. Many of the Brits live and work here and whine about how much better Toronto is. The Brits whinge, that is, constant whining about how they are under-paid and over-worked, under-appreciated and over-accomplished. They should have stayed here instead of fleeing northward.
For all their criticism of Americans' lack of geographical knowledge, how much do Canadians know about America? It is neither my obligation nor desire to learn the intricate details of an obscure country noted mostly for ice and Pierre Trudeau.
You left out the MOST IMPORTANT thing about Canada - there is NO ACKNOWLEGEMENT OF PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS in the Canadian Constitution.
Things are so bad that there is revisionism even from the court system - the British North America act has been renamed to the "Constitution Act of 1867" - pure blather, as it was no such thing.
This is in response to attempts to make light of Americans for their general lack of knowledge about Canada.
How self-centered can you be? It's one thing to expect your people to know about your country. It's another to expect other people to know about it, especially if you're Canada. Canada, for crying out loud!
Twenty years from now when we're standing on the border with our collective cups out, begging them to sell us more oil and water, perhaps you'll lose your smugness...
If we need to buy, they'll want to sell. No begging involved.
Who says we'll still need as much oil(and/or that other sources won't have devoloped) and that we won't have cheap desalinization?
As for smugness, I don't know much about Minnesota either, because it doesn't matter to me(and I don't care how much you know about Illinois). If that's smug, so be it. We can hardly spend our lives learning pointless information about places that don't matter to us to avoid being "smug" to someone.
"We can hardly spend our lives learning pointless information about places that don't matter to us to avoid being "smug" to someone."
Canada is (by far) our largest trading partner. Over the next twenty years we will become increasingly reliant on them for oil, natural gas, wheat, lumber, water and perhaps food.
Knowing some basic information about a country that is so important to our future well-being can hardly be described as pointless. Not knowing can be described as smug.
Stupid, self-serving and arrogant are other adjectives that describe our current knowledge gap...
I'm involved in neither trade policy nor actual international trading. I have no influence over those things, nor any particular wish to influence them. Tell me again why I should know about Canada.
Lets put this in perspective: I'm in college right now, and I'm a history major. My main interest is ancient Rome. Most likely, I'll wind up teaching Roman history to bored undergraduates at some point in the future. If I'm going to spend X number of hours per day learning about another country, why devote some it to Canada instead of Rome?
First if all, our problem as Americans is not that we don't know anything about Canada, we lack basic knowledge about anywhere and anything that goes on outside of our own border. Further, and perhaps most importantly, (especially and most acutely here on FR) that we do not respect those that are not Americans.
Canada is going to loom awfully large in your future in terms of what you consume. Can you say the same about ancient Rome? Canadians are rightfully pissed at our xenophobic and provincial attitudes (expressed by you as well as anyone...)
They may in future come to the realization that "hey, these people hate us - why do we sell oil and water to people that hate us?"
This is not a conversation we want them to have. Taking ten minutes to learn some basic information about Canada and Mexico is not an onerous task.
Where is their capitol? (Ottawa)
Who is their leader? (Prime Minister Chretien)
Is it always cold there? (no - only in winter)
Is it true there are only three million of them? (no, there are over thirty million Canadians spread across ten provinces and three territories)
There, how long did that take?
We as Americans can spout minutiae about our own country's history, but know next to nothing about the rest of the world. As someone who believes in self-preservation, that attitude seems increasingly myopic...
Well, growing up in Detroit, I have to at least thank the Canadians for allowing me to come over there and get smashed three years before it was legal to do so here. I will always hold a soft spot in my heart for them for that.
Aside from that, don't really have any use for them.
A couple of years ago, I had to attend a conference in Buffalo- and one of the channels on the cable inthe hotel was the CBC-Toronto. There was a broadcast in the early morning that was on their health system, and if you ever wanted to hear anti-American BS, it was there. Their news broadcast was more geared to a European view of the world than a North American one- but certainly critical of the government that provides a good chunk of their security.
I don't mind it being critical, so much as I mind their attitude that we are a bunch of cowboys, and they are the genteel, cultured standard setters.
When you shoulder our responsibilities, then you can dictate how it should be. If you don't like our "arrogance", then go and lead the pack. Otherwise, shut the hell up and go brew your beer.
Canada is going to loom awfully large in your future in terms of what you consume. Can you say the same about ancient Rome?
The only thing that recomends Canada, then, is the fact that it happens to be next door. That's the reason we trade with them so much. Rome, on the other hand, is significant in itself.
Canadians are rightfully pissed at our xenophobic and provincial attitudes (expressed by you as well as anyone...)
Xenophobic and provincial? You're kidding, right? If not, you are either terminally stupid or you don't even know what those words mean. How the heck can we be xenophobic towards them? They're all from the same races we are. I'd imagine they're more white, but there are no major ethnic differences. My grandfather is from Canada. Provincial implies being in an insignificant place, and knowing nothing about the outside world. That's a different thing from being in such a significant place that everything else looks too insignificant to pay much attention to.
They may in future come to the realization that "hey, these people hate us - why do we sell oil and water to people that hate us?"
Hate? Who said anything about hating? I'm indifferent to them. I don't know about Indiana either(nor do I think there's some magical quality to knowing the state capital and who the current governor happens to be; that type of knowledge is trivia at best), and I'm sure Illinois does more trade with Indiana than it does with Canada.
And if they ever do ask that question, here's the answer: $$$. If they don't see the obvious and cut their own economic wrists(America matters more to Canada than Canada does to America) over a childish snit about whether or not the typical American knows that it's only cold in the winter, let 'em.
Where is their capitol? (Ottawa) Who is their leader? (Prime Minister Chretien) Is it always cold there? (no - only in winter) Is it true there are only three million of them? (no, there are over thirty million Canadians spread across ten provinces and three territories)
Having read that, I know as little, in a real sense, as I did before. That's trivia. If I wanted to learn about Canada, I'd read about their history in a serious way.
We as Americans can spout minutiae about our own country's history
Most can't.
I have to at least thank the Canadians for allowing me to come over there and get smashed three years before it was legal to do so here.
ROTFLMAO! I could make it from Rochester to Windsor OR Sarnia with my eyes closed! What a wonderful memory...ten of us crammed into the '68 Galaxie on our weekly booze run...
God bless Canadians!
"Do you have anything to declare ?"
"Yeah, I'm wasted."
ROTFL.
We as Americans can spout minutiae about our own country's history, but know next to nothing about the rest of the world. As someone who believes in self-preservation, that attitude seems increasingly myopic.
I guess it's better policy to sieze on a single oft-repeated stereotype with which to characterize an entire people.
And they cant even say about, its about not aboot.
Cheers Tony
>Is it true there are only three million of them? (no, there are over thirty million Canadians spread across ten provinces and three territories)
30 Million. That's about the same as the population of California.
Goodness knows why I wasted any time debating with a myopic boob such as yourself. Anyone who thinks that learning about ancient Rome is somehow more important than learning a few basic facts about our largest trading partner is reason enough to weep at the future of our country.
I'm sure you'll be a fine "teacher" someday...sigh...
Funny, I happen to agree with A.J. and I don't consider myself a stupid person. I function quite well in society, "play well with others", and seem to hold down a fairly comfortable well-paying job ...
... all without having the slightest inclination to know anything about Canada and the Canadians except that, generally, their self-serving hypocrits who constantly criticise the US while enjoying the close proximity to good medical care, hemispheric defense, and television programs (although I won't necessarily grade these as "good").
No, I figure that if Canada is our largest trading partner, then that's the business of business to make that work.
As Bill Murray said in "Stripes" ...I think it was .. "We're Americans. We've been kicked out of every decent country in Europe."
What does that make Canadians?
"their" ... should be "they're" .. oops.
anadians are rightfully pissed at our xenophobic and provincial attitudes (expressed by you as well as anyone...)
Canada, the nation that rations out the amount of "non-Canadian" time their TV and radio stations can use. Yes, Canada has federal laws dictating what percentage of what radio and TV broadcast must be made in Canada, I think TV has to spend 80% of it's broadcast on totally Canadian stuff and radio has to spend 60%. And you think they have any "right" to call us xenophobic. That's funny. These laws, BTW, are one of the reasons we film so much stuff in Toronto. American made but done in Canada counts as 50% Canadian, so 2 hours worth of that counts as 1 hour of Canadian when working out the percentages. But we're the xenophobic ones. Right.
Anyone who thinks that learning about ancient Rome is somehow more important than learning a few basic facts about our largest trading partner is reason enough to weep at the future of our country.
As Agrarian said on the most recent Lives of the Twelve Caesars thread, "It goes back to the old distinction between the important and the merely urgent...."
You're the one who thinks trivia about the country north of us(and yes it is nothing but trivia; a person who knows only what you listed is as ignorent of Canada as someone who knows nothing about it at all) is more important than the root of our civilization. Continue to be a barbarian. Focus only on the here and now. You'll have a great time self-righteously calling your betters ignorent, but only because of your own foolishness. You'll never know how benighted you are.
Now you know why genX Canadians look upon Alanis Morrissette like some kind of goddess.
As a hockey fan, I can play pretty good on this one:
Where is their capitol? While Ottawa has the big building, Canada has similar big city/ rural issue we have, subsequently Toronto (as the only really big city) actually runs the country.
Who is their leader? All I need to know about their prime minister is that all the Canadians that work for ESPN hate him.
Is it always cold there? Depends on where your from. Remember, America is a very large nation with many different climates. I'm from Tucson, according to my body, yes it is always cold in Canada. Much as I'm sure it's always hot down here to some one from Calgary (my favorite team).
Is it true there are only three million of them? (no, there are over thirty million Canadians spread across ten provinces and three territories) Didn't know the total population, but I do know that 50% of the population lives within 100 miles of the Air Canada Centre in Toronto (like I said, the only city we would consider to be big).
Other things I know about Canada:
They're tax happy enough to make our tax and spend liberals look positively pro-free enterprise (eg. the Montreal Canadiens, least taxed of their NHL teams, pays more in taxes than ALL American franchises combined).
Self defense isn't a defense in their criminal system.
Their beers our better than our, but you can say that about just about anywhere (just comparing main market beers, microbrewries mudy the waters too much for fair comparisons).
Overall they're a pretty friendly lot. But, like many of our friends and allies, just don't get America. But since we're the ones with the money and the military, it's their job to figure us out, not vis versa.
"You're the one who thinks trivia about the country north of us(and yes it is nothing but trivia; a person who knows only what you listed is as ignorent of Canada as someone who knows nothing about it at all) is more important than the root of our civilization."
That's not what I said though is it? In time, you'll make a fine socialist teacher...
""Continue to be a barbarian. Focus only on the here and now. You'll have a great time self-righteously calling your betters ignorent"
Young man, you have already admitted you know nothing: "I don't know about Indiana either...and I'm sure Illinois does more trade with Indiana than it does with Canada. In fact trade between Illinois and Ontario (auto-pact) far surpasses trade between Indiana and Illinois. Surprised? I thought so...
It doesn't take long to find out a few elementary facts about somewhere else, whether that be Canada, Mexico or other nations crucial for our future survival. As a physician, I know a great deal about the myriad elements of my profession. I also strive to learn about that which I do not know. If I could impart any advice at all, it would be that...
p.s. If you’re going to insult someone, you would be wise to learn that there is no “e” in ignorant.
Best regards,
"Canada .... what, is that still a country?" Dougie Franklin, monster truck driver from the States now living in Canada
(stolen with glee from "The New Red Green Show")
:-)
Then again, most of the world makes fun of our beer. It was either Monty Python or Terry Pratchett that called it "making love in a canoe" beer.
"(censored)ing close to water"
LOL, I saw the thread, decided to give these little people a pass, allow them to rant and vent......... they seem to need it.... :-}
It was both actually. Monty Python said it first though.
OK, thanks! (smile)
All you need to know about Canada: 1. In 15-20 years "Canada" will mean what is now know as Ontario. The rest will either be part of the US or Quebec. 2. They need us more than we need them. Have you seen Canadian TV? Please!
That's not what I said though is it? In time, you'll make a fine socialist teacher...
Yes it is what you said. You said that it's reason enough to weep that one person cares more about Rome than Canada. You are personally offended that I prefer a source of our civilization over our leading trade partner. That's your choice. I pity you if you can't see why someone would prefer culture over GNP(even more if you think that's socialist, of all things, not knowing that socialism is the death of Western culture), but it won't cause me to weep.
Young man, you have already admitted you know nothing
Knowing little about Indiana, Minnesota, or Canada is not the same as knowing nothing. I can't know everything, and I won't try. The top ten factoids about everywhere in the world are not a substitute.
In fact trade between Illinois and Ontario (auto-pact) far surpasses trade between Indiana and Illinois.
I can see your obsession with Canada surpasses my obsession with Rome. You're like an anglophile or a francophile, but if you could've picked a more boring place to be philed with, I can't think of one. And you're offended that anyone wouldn't share your obsession, or, worse, would see no reason to. Just remember, 1,000 years from now they'll still remember Rome, unlike Canada.
As a physician, I know a great deal about the myriad elements of my profession.
I suppose you want me to as well. Sorry: I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV.
I also strive to learn about that which I do not know. If I could impart any advice at all, it would be that...
Your advice is not to learn things I don't know, it's to learn things I don't know and you do know. Sorry here too: I have my own interests, and our largest trading partner has little part in them. You have a right to yours, but mine are more important in the grand scheme of things.
"Have you seen Canadian TV? Please."
Have you seen American TV?
Canada will loom large in American popular conciousness if, and only if, Toronto gets an NFL franchise.
Ignorance is for chumps.
This is in response to attempts to make light of Americans for their general lack of knowledge about Canada.
I haven't seen the show. Is it broadcast here? IMHO, if they can find Americans who allow themselves to be made fun of, it has no reflection on all us. If anything, you should be more upset over some of these daytime shows that foreign visitors will watch. I doubt the Canadians can make Americans look any more foolish than what American producers put out as daily fare.
Canada is going to loom awfully large in your future in terms of what you consume. ... They may in future come to the realization that "hey, these people hate us - why do we sell oil and water to people that hate us?"
(Info from some irrelevant Canadian FAQ here.)
We as Americans can spout minutiae about our own country's history, but know next to nothing about the rest of the world. As someone who believes in self-preservation, that attitude seems increasingly myopic...
Here is some "minutiae" about our history. We have invaded Canada 3 times. We have been repulsed twice. If you count the Oregon Trail we actually invaded four times. In any case we almost went to war over Oregon (Remember "54 40 or Fight".) We have this nasty tendency to get what we want. (Remember the Panama Canal.) We have the ability to de-stabalize governments, not always to our advantage to be sure. (remember Iran)
As long as we don't know or care about Canada, Canada is safe. When we get "Interested" in Canada, don't be so sure. I am sure that Canada and canadians know this, and would not be so stupid as to not trade with us just for spite.
Well, I for one, am glad that Canada and the Canadians are our Northern neighbor.
"You have a right to yours, but mine are more important in the grand scheme of things."
Silly naive boy. What I'm sure you meant to say was: "but mine are more important to me in the grand scheme of things.
Make sure you end up teaching at a public school, where your ignorance about the world we live in can be fully appreciated...
HAH! bumbug....they're all a bunch of hockey pucks!!!! gotta admit, the country is beautiful. woe canada!
Silly naive boy. What I'm sure you meant to say was: "but mine are more important to me in the grand scheme of things.
No, relativist dimwit, I mean in the grand scheme of things. There's only one, you know.
If you can tell me seriously that 1,000 years from now, people will care about Canada as anything but an aspect of American history, let alone in a position like Rome, you're dumber than you seem.
BTW, you're particularly stupid if you think the public schools would want to teach about dead whites like Romans, who happen to be major contributors to our culture. In fact, that they are behind much of our patrimony is why they aren't in public schools. It would get in the way of deconstructing Western Civilization. You have to get rid of those boring old Romans and substitute more "relevant" topics. You are an unwitting or witting ally of the enemey.
Well, I for one, am glad that Canada and the Canadians are our Northern neighbor.
Agreed. By and large, they're an alright bunch, and my grandfather fought in their Army at the sharp end, during the Great War. I just found his name recently on the Canadian Government's online military archive.
I haven't been up since the seventies, but I was quite well treated as an American, and really enjoyed the place.
If folks want to flick fecal matter at one another across the border just for some sparring fun, that's cool. But they aren't bad neighbors. Just wish their government would leave their gun owners alone.
Canada is incredibly fortunate to border the U.S. They're also fortunate that, so far, no U.S. President has dealt with them as we could (and will, if we need to.) We can drop a hammer on them they won't believe, if they push us. And a lot of them know it.
Why do you get so emotional over attacks on Canada? I am Canadian and these attacks on Canada don't bother me, and in fact, they are somewhat justified by the attitudes I sometimes see up here. After some of the things I see written about the U.S. by Canadians, I don't blame Americans for feeling angry.
I lived and and worked in Canada for 6 years, and I still return frequently, I feel I am qualified to comment
1. Canadian knowledge of the United States, In Canadian High Schools there are two American History courses, that go far beyond anything my children were taught in public school in Texas, you would be hard pressed to find a Canadian who didn't live on the arctic tundra who didn't have a general knowledge of the United States, By the way, Rick Mercer is funny as hell.
2. Healthcare, Everyone has an agenda and everyone spins stories so they compliment their personal agenda, I would say that the public healthcare is somewhat better than a good HMO, everyone with an agenda loves a good horror story, 99% of Americans will never have a problem here, 99% of Canadians will never have a problem there.
3. Politics, Canada has had since 1993 a Liberal government, I would consiter the Chretien Liberals to be Center-Right on a fiscal bearing, although with the exception of homosexual rights, they are certainly on the left where social issues are concerned, the offical opposition is lead by a certifiable idiot named Stockwell Day who is quite simply an absolute disaster, the clown is polling around 6% at the moment, the Canadian Alliance is quite simply, falling apart and drifting into irrelivence, there is no offical opposition to speak of.
4. Guns, Seriously, the average Canadian couldn't care much less
5. Taxes, It depends on the state, If you live in a place like California or New York, and you move to a place like Alberta or Ontario, you will over all pay less in taxes, if you move from a part of the country that has very low or no State taxes you will pay more. Federal taxes are higher, Provincial (state) taxes are lower, if you take into account a lower cost of living, you probably wouldn't notice
6. Quebec, These idiots were screaming long before 1776 that they want independance, although keep in mind these are the french after-all, if they launched a revolution, they would probably surrender to the first crop duster that flies over-head!
I really enjoyed the time I spent in Canada, From time to time I think about returning, If my employer were to offer me another assignment in Canada, I would accept it in a second
A.J.
For a young man with pretensions of having a higher education, you seem somewhat thick. There is nothing inherently wrong about learning about the ancient Romans, and I never said there was.
My point is a simple one. It is ALSO possible to spend a few minutes a week learning about a subject you have a professed ignorance of. You claim no knowledge of Canada or Canadians, yet you started out in this thread by bad-mouthing them. If you have a gap in your education about geography, then you owe it to yourself and your future students to fill that gap in.
Our neighbours to the north and south are interesting fascinating folks and their natural resources are essential to our progression as a nation.
If you (as you admitted) don't know anything about them, and you do not want to learn even a few basic facts, then you should cease to comment on their affairs, lest you look like the quintessential ugly American.
Best regards,
Canada is incredibly fortunate to border the U.S. They're also fortunate that, so far, no U.S. President has dealt with them as we could (and will, if we need to.) We can drop a hammer on them they won't believe, if they push us. And a lot of them know it.
YOU wouldn't happen to be Wesley Clark, or Maddie, would you. ?
After some of the things I see written about the U.S. by Canadians, I don't blame Americans for feeling angry.
That surely goes both ways.
For a young man with pretensions of having a higher education, you seem somewhat thick.
And then you proceed to demonstrate your own thickness in the rest of your reply. Of course, that line in itself shows how think you are: I get your point, I just don't a agree with it.
There is nothing inherently wrong about learning about the ancient Romans, and I never said there was.
You just wept about it. After all, Canadians are our trading partners!
My point is a simple one. It is ALSO possible to spend a few minutes a week learning about a subject you have a professed ignorance of. You claim no knowledge of Canada or Canadians
I never said I know nothing about Canada, just very little. All I know is from articles here, but it's not nothing. Again, nothing of real value could be learned in a few minutes(well, it can be, but not about something like a another country). I can't know everything. You've spent the whole thread telling me to learn about something of minor importance, pretending that not doing it is some sort of moral failing.
yet you started out in this thread by bad-mouthing them.
...
If you (as you admitted) don't know anything about them, and you do not want to learn even a few basic facts, then you should cease to comment on their affairs, lest you look like the quintessential ugly American.
If you don't remember what I actually said, you should reread it, lest you look like a flaming simpleton. I didn't say anything about their affairs. I said that you shouldn't expect other people to know about your country as if it was some sort of moral obligation, especially if you're a minor country like Canada.
I fear for the future of our children, should you be an example of a teacher in training. I do not think I have ever met a duller, more unctious twit.
"I never said I know nothing about Canada, just very little."
Yet you contine to pontificate. Woe are the children...
I fear for the future of our children, should you be an example of a teacher in training. I do not think I have ever met a duller, more unctious twit.
In other words, I don't agree with you. There's a reason for that: you're a cretin. Proof? See below.
Yet you contine to pontificate. Woe are the children...
I'm not "pontificating" about Canada. Either you know that and you're so stupid you throw it out knowing how easy it will be to knock down, or you've got such poor reading comprehension skills you can't figure out what I'm saying. If you go back and read the thread, you'll find few, if any, comments about Canada itself(as opposed to the relative importance of knowledge about Canada). Don't let that stop you from making a fool of yourself.
At least you were smart enough not to call me "ignorent" again (giggle) Woe the children...
I'd rather be bad at spelling than bad at thinking.
You aren't worth devoting any more mental effort toward, especially since all I've done is repeat the obvious. I'll repeat it once more and be gone. It's absurd to treat not knowing minor facts like who the current prime minister of Canada happens to be as a moral failing. There are some things you could say you're morally obligated to know, but the answers to all the Trivial Pursuit questions about Canada are not among them. Roman history isn't either, but it's a heck of a lot closer.
Look, you provincial little twit, your attitude of wilfull ignorance about Canada clearly demonstrates to me your profound incapacity to understand your own historical world, let alone that of the Classical world.
Romans had an interest in the political world around them; the error of the Greek city-states, and the reason they were powerless against an expanding Rome, was their extraordinary indifference to the political world outside their own walls, occupied by definition, by mere barbarians.
You could look it up.
Bump
Look, you provincial little twit, your attitude of wilfull ignorance about Canada clearly demonstrates to me your profound incapacity to understand your own historical world, let alone that of the Classical world.
My attitude is simply that it's not a moral failing to not know the particular minor facts that Dr. Luv knows. If you think having a different knowledge base than Dr. Luv makes you have a "profound incapacity" to understand the world, you've given him a heck of a lot more credit than I have.
Romans had an interest in the political world around them; the error of the Greek city-states, and the reason they were powerless against an expanding Rome, was their extraordinary indifference to the political world outside their own walls, occupied by definition, by mere barbarians.
First, the Roman interest in the outside world is not something for us to emulate, although unfortunately we are emulating it. Their interest was imperialism, which ultimately ended the Republic. As for Greece, the Romans were invited in as allies against, if I recall correctly, Macedonia. Most of what we know about Rome from the time of the Punic wars is from a Greek, Polybius. If you want to use classical examples(especially if you're going to insult me by saying I'm profounding incapable of understanding my own subject because I don't agree with an obvious amateur like you) know what the hell you're talking about.
I would submit that what I do know about Canada, which consists of bits and pieces about Quebec and the resentment of some in the western provinces, would be better at helping me understand possible future events than trivia like where the capital is. If you think that kind of thing will make you really understand Canada, you're a very shallow thinker. Europe is more important to the future anyway, and I have been following the fight between the Europhiles and Eurosceptics whenever articles appear on it here.
And now, unless you've got anything better than the worthless idiocy of your last post, I'll quit wasting my time.
I retract,"little twit", the rest stands.
Goodbye.
You've heard the saying, "Don't major in minor things," right? Canada is a minor thing. Nothing wrong with it, there are just better things to spend your time on. That's my last word on the subject.
I dunno, when we run out of clean water and the Arabs tell us to goto hell
Canada just might become a pretty major thing
Police have even gone so far as to listen in on private conversations in restaraunts to make sure there is no racist speech occurring--private conversations! And they made an arrest, as reported March 28th in the National Post! "Operation Napkin" is the stuff of police states.
Operation Napkin took place in England.
Is Canada slipping towards fascism? I'd say it's already there. The Prime Minister gets to decide when he wants to hold the elections!
I'd say you're right and it's much worse than you state here. No hard tradition of free speech, no gun rights, and no property rights are deadly enough but it gets much worse. To demonstrate the precariousness of Canada, and the dwindling liberties that remain, I will try to transpose the current governmental situation onto the American system. It will probably be a bit crude but it should demonstrated my point. For added horror, imagine this situation with Bill (or Hillary)Clinton as president. That's not to say Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien is as bad as the Clintons but but he's certainly no gem and worse could come down the pike.
The Canadian parliamentary system doesn't have an effective separtation between the executive and legislative branches. This would mean in America that the president would also be a law maker. But wait, it gets a lot worse. If the president also has a majority in the House of Representatives and Senate his power becomes effectively absolute. Accomplishing this electoral feat is easier in Canada because senators aren't elected, they are appointed by the prime minister. For that reason they have no real legislative power and the Canadian Senate is for all purposes irrelevant. The president, with a minority in the House of Representatives, would be king.
He could have any law he wishes passed because the House majority must vote the way their party leader, the president, orders them to vote. They can go against the party line but if they do their status in the party drops like a stone. The president could even expel them from the party. As long as the majority House members stayed loyal to the president they could rule as a king and his court.
But what if the president you vote in with a majority has the ethics of a Clinton? What then?
You’re screwed. Because there is no mechanism for getting rid of the bum other than calling for an election. The trouble with that is the only one who can call an election would be the president. The president could call an election any time he pleases but he would not be required to do so for five years.
An unscrupulous leader, with a completely loyal majority, could legislate the five year limit to ten years. Or twenty.
Canada has severe structural problems that it has no institutional means of addressing, much less altering. The pressure is building and the country, by its very constitution and governmental system, is proscribed from even building a blowout protection valve.
Canada just might become a pretty major thing
Actually there is a fair chance that in some years it may be no thing at all!! A few modest predictions (all assuming the the US stays a single nation, which is probable).
In 2012, after a manufactured incident in the City of Montreal, a referendum in the Province of Quebec calls for independence of the province. Against all expectations, the federal Canadian government sends troops to try to prevent secession, outraging the citizens of Quebec and other Canadians. After a few casualties, the troops are withdrawn, and Quebec is independent. In pride and resentment, and against their own interests, the citizens of Quebec put up tariff barriers against Canada including traffic on the St. Lawrence Seaway Friction increases.
In 2022 the maritime provinces, pushed further into poverty by economic isolation, with their small population starts reconsidering their situation. They remember that it large part they are descended from American Tories. New Brunswick was actually represented at the First Continental Congress, and has a large contingent of American vacationers since before FDR at Campobello island. They decide that given the choice between domination by Quebec, poverty, or return to the US, the later is the least evil choice. Over the next decades they successfully petition for admission to the United States.
By the 2030's Canada is the country from British Columbia to Ontario, with Ontario having over half the population. British Columbia has little in common with Ontario, being economically part of the Pacific Basin. Resenting control by politicians from Ontario, the Columbians secede. In short order, BC joins the nation with its economic and political twin -- Washington State, and becomes part of the US in the middle 2040's.
In the 2050's the prairie provinces, the tail to Ontario's dog, with far more in common with the Dakotas than with Ontario, follow British Columbia into the United States.
In the 2060's Ontario, a totally landlocked nation, with no outlet to foreign commerce decides it would rather be a large frog in the sea of the global superpower, than try to fend for itself, and annexes itself to the US on much the same special terms as Texas did 220 years earlier.
Proud Quebec, in splendid isolation, recognizes as the 21st century ends, that the US is now a multi-cultural nation, that nearly half of its area, and a third of its population are majority Hispanic. It is not the same as the former all English Canada. At the end of the 21st century Quebec goes to the aid of its Romance language speaking fellow Catholics in the American southwest, and joins the American Union, which becomes a trilingual state, including all of the continent north of the Rio Grande.
RESULT -- WE CAN'T BLAME CANADA ANYMORE!!
"Europe is more important to the future anyway"
My goodness, perhaps I've missed the fact that Europe now exports to us massive amounts of oil, natural gas, lumber, wheat, electricity and all the other elements essential to our future.
Perhaps Europe has discovered a massive store of fresh water that will be accessible to us when we need it.
Perhaps I was ill the day it was announced that the U.S. is no longer a trading nation.
Perhaps, as someone else remarked, you are a provincial little twit...
What does that make Canadians?
Jerks...
Try saying you're from Alaska while there and see what happens. (Hint: It won't be pretty!)
Bump
I know all about Canada, I saw the John Candy documentary called: "Canadian Bacon", it tells all you need to know of Canadians, eg. "they look like us, but they are Canadian".
Canada is incredibly fortunate to border the U.S. They're also fortunate that, so far, no U.S. President has dealt with them as we could (and will, if we need to.) We can drop a hammer on them they won't believe, if they push us. And a lot of them know it
Oh, I see, we're lucky that the US hasn't invaded, attacked or blockaded us militarily yet, is that it? Actually, you're right. That's just what most Canadians believe about the US: that you are a country that is a power unto itself with no respect for ethical, moral or legal restrictions about what you can or can't do. That given the right circumstances, just like Germany in the second world war, that you would launch an aggressive war against us. What does that say about the US? We may fear you, but we don't respect you.
Also, btw, the "insignificant" country of Canada makes up over half the land mass of the continent of North America, even if a good part of it is a frozen wasteland. And no it is not necessarily cold here. Where I sit right now I am farther south than the northern reaches of California, and significantly warmer (90+ F in the shade here yesterday). And while we do have our political problems, we don't have the insane WOD-caused violations of rights that you do, with the asset forfeitures and the no-knock searches with their concommitant "mistakes". Although, of course, the US has done what it could to force us to adopt your policies.
I like Americans and Canadians even if you do all talk funny and are built like porkers.
wink
Well, growing up in Detroit, I have to at least thank the Canadians for allowing me to come over there and get smashed three years before it was legal to do so here
Just out of curiosity, when you or your friends were ticketed for underage alcohol consumption, could you just claim that you got drunk in Canada? Would that be a valid defense?
Just out of curiosity, when you or your friends were ticketed for underage alcohol consumption, could you just claim that you got drunk in Canada? Would that be a valid defense?
He sure could, since it is not illegal to drink under 21 in Canada. The Bush daughter can drink in Alberta at 18, and then come back to america without getting charged for drinking either. For anyone that has ever watched William F. Buckley, he has admitted to smoking marijuanna several times, but only after he passed the 7 mile limit on his yacht, therefore, he never smoked mj in america. A New York city resident can shoot a machine gun in Las Vegas while on vacation on Flamingo Road, and they have, and New York cannot do anything about it.
"But don't you think you're a few centuries behind when it comes to having a real Constitution with real guarantees for individual rights?"
To be downright pessimistic ... We may just be a few decades behind in obliterating all concerns of individual rights.
If we were ticketed for consuming alcohol while underage it would have been found out after we were pulled over and found to be driving under the influence. That is illegal in both countries.
Your timetable is a little off. Expect Canada to accede to the EU by 2012 as the first non-Euro member, possibly in conjunction with Quebec rejoining France. By 2020, at the latest, the US also will have acceded to the EU, making us all one big happy socialist family.
By 2020, you are way out we expect to occupy Canada next year and America in 2005.
All your bases will belong once more to us.
You might try claiming you were not used to real beer and thought you were drinking what passes for it in the US.
than learning a few basic facts about our largest trading partner
I agree with you that we need to know a few basic facts about them. One will do for starters.
That one fact is that they are a socialist country and to the extent that we don't become as socialist as them, we will never have a cup out begging for anything from them.
If we keep a free economy and they stay the way they are, they are doomed and they will always be begging to us, just like they are now. They sneak down here to use our hospitals and every other thing they need and then scurry back up to their nanny state teats to take advantage of the theft of their neighbors wealth.
The country sucks and always will if they stay on the path they are on.
Sadly this country is sliding into the abyss with them.
We as Americans can spout minutiae about our own country's history, but know next to nothing about the rest of the world.
The rest of the world is irrelevant.
Planning to forgive them for that little misunderstanding and invite them back into the Commonwealth?
Who is their leader? (Prime Minister Chretien)
Sort of.
Canada's head of state is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, whose daily duties in Canada are carried out by Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, C.C.
"...we expect to occupy Canada next year..."
Make your reservations early, it gets crowded here during invasion season.
I say lets invade America occupy it and give it to the Mexicans for a laugh
I have a feeling that there are individuals here not taking this thread seriously
Problem with travelling in Blighty is that everyone was calling me a Yank.
Except at Aldershot.
"The country sucks and always will if they stay on the path they are on.
'They may in future come to the realization that "hey, these people hate us - why do we sell oil and water to people that hate us?"'
I have a feeling that there are individuals here not taking this thread seriously
It is hard to take anything about Canada seriously.
"hey, these people hate us - why do we sell oil and water to people that hate us?"'
For the money. Econ. 101
For the record, most people, myself included, don't hate them, we feel sorry for them, and are terrified that we will someday be more like them than we already are. Socialism and the tyranny and social degradation it brings are truly terrifing to freedom loving people.
The truth is the whole world sucks and this country (so far) just sucks a little less. I hate to grade on the curve, but there you have it.
Not when you say aboot instead of about.
The country sucks and always will if they stay on the path they are on.
I stand by that statement BTW, I'm glad you reposted it, but your bold was on the whole thing instead of the operative part.
re : It is hard to take anything about Canada seriously.
Not one to point the finger or anything but some one here is having a go at the canucks isnt that right waterstraat.
Big sh*t stirring cheers Tony
That's just our mid-Atlantic accent, beloved by US broadcasting networks.
I always have trouble asking for directions in the States. Whenever they say route, they pronounce it rout and I have a mental picture of an army retreating in disorder.
Also, they can't spell "colour" or "labour".
But they can spell "tire".
In officer's school we called it ordure stirring.
"Officer by the grace of God, gentleman by an act of Parliament".
I promised myself I wouldn't do this, but your last comment was too stupid to pass up knocking over. You call me a provincial little twit, yet you focus exclusively on direct, short term relevance to America, while I, in my so-called provinciality, look further afield and past the short term. Sounds like you're the provincial one. You can't even perceive the important things, so you insult those of us who do and pay attention to them instead of the irrelevances you pay attention to.
Oh, good. A thread in which people brag about how ignorant they are. From what I have read, apparently the idea is that
1.)We shouldn't have to learn about Canada because it's not the United States.
2.)We shouldn't have to learn about the United States if we don't want to.
3.)Even though we know nothing about Canada, and very little about the United States, we are better.
4.)Because we are better, the Canadians will always sell gas, oil, wheat, and water to us, even if they are totally alienated.
5.)If that doesn't happen, we will either invade or they will (for obscure reasons) become part of the US.
OK. I think I have this down. Except for the part where people apparently are admitting to limited brainpower and therefore can't cram any Canadian information into their already overloaded skulls.
I would recommend some people read Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People.
"The truth is the whole world sucks..."
This northern provincial will now shamble back to his rude cabin, once again dazzled by the cosmopolitan brilliance of the American Philosopher.
Oh well, there's always moose hunting season to look forward to.(sigh)
I give up I have tried to start a flame war done a bit of stirring and for what nothing.
So you were an officer
A Wupert or a Wodney, A Wupert is born to the Wank and a Wodney wose to the wank.
Cheers Tony
LOL like it centurian like it
Cheers Tony
I would respond, if only I knew what the hell you were rambling about.
Q: why do we sell oil and water to people that hate us?"'
A: "Because we want their money"
Canada has severe structural problems that it has no institutional means of addressing, much less altering. The pressure is building and the country, by its very constitution and governmental system, is proscribed from even building a blowout protection valve.
Remember how in every election they promise to change the system, and after every election the whole idea of change gets shelved............. the way it is, is a good tool for whomever is in power.
1.)We shouldn't have to learn about Canada because it's not the United States.
Can you tell me (without looking it up) who the current mayors of Vancouver and Mexico City are? If you can't, does that mean that you are an "ignorant" person in general?
We shouldn't have to learn about the United States if we don't want to.
Are you saying that we should be forced to learn such information?
3.)Even though we know nothing about Canada, and very little about the United States, we are better.
No, we are better because our country still possesses a measure of capitalism and freedom.
4.)Because we are better, the Canadians will always sell gas, oil, wheat, and water to us, even if they are totally alienated.
The Canadians will always sell us gas, oil, wheat and water because they crave our strong (and thus 'better") American dollar, so that point is fundamentally accurate.
5.)If that doesn't happen, we will either invade or they will (for obscure reasons) become part of the US.
See my answers to pints three and four, for the explanation of why Canada will always want to trade with this country.
I like Americans and Canadians even if you do all talk funny and are built like porkers.
Those should be fighting words, but darn it you're right, the one thing we notice when in Europe, is that there are a lot fewer obese people, in spite of the fact that the Euro's eat food a lot richer than we do......... so much for the lean mean machine.............. LOLOLOL.
No, I don't know the names of those mayors. On the other hand, I wouldn't BRAG about it. What's the matter, did I hit a nerve? LOL!
For the record, most people, myself included, don't hate them, we feel sorry for them, and are terrified that we will someday be more like them than we already are. Socialism and the tyranny and social degradation it brings are truly terrifing to freedom loving people.
Last time I looked, you were already there, there is a lot less difference than you think.
Big sh*t stirring cheers Tony.
And you're soooooooo good at it. :-}
:-}}}}}}}}}
Last time I looked, you were already there, there is a lot less difference than you think.
Just a matter of degrees. I don't think we are there yet because I have been in Canada and I do know something about their government and their people. But I know we aren't far away from declining as fast as they have. Hillary and the rest of the reds are trying to get us there sooner rather than later by imitating thier failed socialist medical care system.
So in answer to your comment, I don't think there is a great deal of difference. Just enough to keep us from begging them for oil and water as one poster here suggested.
Where do you live that is so much less socialistic than Canada or here?
Remember how in every election they promise to change the system, and after every election the whole idea of change gets shelved....
Making and breaking such promises is standard operational procedure in probably every country that holds elections. The promise is a guaranteed vote getter. There is a difference in Canada though. In many countries politicians make the promise but then find the structure they railed against isn't so bad once they are in power. Good intentions fail. But, what if good intentions didn't fail? What if Canada's politicians decided they really did want to change the system?
Too bad, in Canada it can't be done.
Previous Canadian governments have slammed the door on change. Canada has already made the last change to its Constitution. That last change was a constitutional amending formula that absolutely guarantees another amendment will never occur. Canada can't fix itself, even if it suddenly found honorable leaders.
A completely new constitution is Canada's only hope for survival, at least as country worth living in. Before that change takes place things will get much, much worse.
I'm not optimistic.
From the movie "Canadian Bacon":
"Think of your children pledging allegiance to the maple leaf. Mayonnaise on everything. Winter 11 months of the year. Anne Murray -- all day, every day. The Canadians. They walk among us. William Shatner. Michael J. Fox. Monty Hall. Mike Meyers. Alex Trebek. All of them Canadians. All of them here."Some really funny "canadian" jokes in that movie. Especially the part where they discuss the proper way to pronounce 'O's. In fact the whole movie premise is a satire on the lack of knowledge Americans have of Canada.
Its, the wine, Lise.
We don't drink enough of it.
The doctor that put me on chelation therapy also told me to drink one or two glasses of wine every day.
When I virtuously told him that I was using margerine instead of butter, he said "That'll have to stop! Go back to using butter immediately!".
"That last change was a constitutional amending formula that absolutely guarantees another amendment will never occur. Canada can't fix itself, even if it suddenly found honorable leaders."
That whole package of changes, including an amending formula that would have cast the constitution in stone in perpetuity, was voted down in a national referendum.
All the major political parties except Reform campaigned for "Yes".
All the major special interest organizations campaigned for "Yes".
All the newspapers and electronic media, including the conservative ones, urged us to vote "Yes".
The school teachers were telling school children to urge their parents to vote "Yes".
The National Action Committee on the Status of Women (NAC, the Canadian equivalent of NOW) even said "Hold your nose and vote 'Yes' ".
Canadians voted "No".
OK I pride myself on being a moderator on disputes like this so I'm gonna try my luck here. First of all I am Canadian. 2nd of all over the last couple of years, to have patrotism in Canada, you'd also have to think were better then Americans in every way, but we still have a respect for Americans. 2nd, if the Canadian Alliance ever did get elected, (or a new right wing party which is looking more and more likely) the first thing they have pledged to do is amend the constitution to make a senate like the states. I have campaigned to amend the charter of rights and freedoms to be more stronger and to include the right to bear arms. It's going to happen, believe you me, just wait till old-school reformers get into office.
Canadians voted "No".
Indeed. It was Canada's finest hour. Never was I prouder of my fellow Canadians. Unfortunately, in the years that followed, every aspect of the package Canadians voted against en masse was brought in piecemeal through the back door. Canada got exactly what its citizens vote resoundingly against. And there is no way out.
Don't worry about this thread. These kind of threads crop up every now and then and everyone has a bit of fun tweaking each other.
I have a Kiwi friend who can't understand why Canucks were always complaining about Yanks but jumped to their defence if a Brit, Kiwi or Digger did the same.
My reply was "brothers may disagree."
I agree that we need an elective Senate, and I campaigned for Reform in Ontario back when Reform was just moving east from the Lakehead.
The so called Triple E (Elected, Equal and Effective) Senate simply could get no support in Ontario and Quebec. Ontario and Quebec tend to combine to outvote the rest of Canada and so a Triple E senate would undermine their power.
My gloss on the senate would be to elect members, not as part of a National general election, but rather each Province would elect its members as part of the Provincial general election, thereby making it clear that the Senate represents regional interests. Writs for Senate by-elections would be dropped by Lieutenant Governors instead of the Governor General.
While easterners see the dichotomy as being between Anglophone and Francophone Canada, westerners realize that on economic issues the "Ontario-Quebec Axis" is generally united to the detriment of the west.
The Ontario-Quebec population and economic powers make Confederation lopsided. That may change as British Columbia's population increases and its economic strength as part of the Pacific Rim asserts itself.
"I do know that 50% of the population lives within 100 miles of the Air Canada Centre in Toronto
(like I said, the only city we would consider to be big)."
????
It seems you have not heard of a city called Montreal,
which is 340 miles from Toronto.
Yes, but the everything important in Canada can be seen from the top of the CN Tower.
Just ask the mayor.
Or the Toronto Star, or the CBC.
Apparently this whole feud started because Americans are ignorant of Canada. Well, isn't that a problem caused by our public schools? Instead of attacking Canada and Canadians we should be attacking the commissars of our public school system.
yep. my buddy is a perfusionist in Phoenix. there are clinics that cater 90% to canadians. RICH canadians. so lets hope they lay off the rich run everything in the USA nonsense.
Canadians don't know crap about the US, as evidenced by their constant "ha ha we burned down the white house" banter. They are so ignorant themselves they don't even know that they were still a part of Britain when that happened.
canada's sense of self seems to be only that they are not Americans.
mmmm Molson is much better than Sierra. I don't think most of the rest of the world realizes "beer" is a legal term in the US, based on al-kee-hol content. Thus the "weak american beer" nonsense. I'll put a 40 of Crazy Horse up against any "strong" beer from over seas!
by American standards Montreal is not a big city. It is a nice city, and I cheer for the Habs over the Leafs every time. But it is not large. I got the 50% figure from Gary Bettman's speech when the Air Canada Centre opened. Gary could be full of crap, he has been before, but given that just about every hockey fan in two countries was watching that I'm trusting he paid somebody to research it.
"The Canadians will always sell us gas, oil, wheat and water because they crave our strong (and thus 'better") American dollar, so that point is fundamentally accurate."
Would you deal with another country whose citizens held you in such contempt? Canadians, by and large, have no idea (as I didn't until recently) the hatred and contempt so many conservative Americans have for them. It is attitudes like yours that will be our undoing, for their natural resources are fundamental to our survival.
If I were them, I 'd tell us all to take a flying F*(k...
I say lets invade America occupy it ....
Didn't you Brits last try that in 1812? Seems we kicked you butts back accross the pond.
And we've grown a tad since then... ;-)
Over the next twenty years we will become increasingly reliant on them for oil, natural gas, wheat, lumber, water and perhaps food.
In 20 years, Canada will have become states #51-#60 (or #52-#61 if Puerto Rico ever pulls its head out of its tail end ...).
Gary Bettman is full of crap.
Year 2000 population:
Canada 30.75 million
Ontario 11.7 million
Greater Toronto 4.75 million (Toronto exurban area)
City of Toronto 2.5 million (As recently amalgamated)
Toronto is the 5th biggest city in North America after Mexico City, Los Angeles, New York and Chicago.
Toronto has the biggest influx of immigrants in Canada, about 1.5 million in 10 years balanced by a similar number moving out to exurban towns and townships.
"51 - 60"
There are ten Provinces and three Territories.
Probably, if they became states it would be logical to merge the 3 Maritime Provinces and largely rural Northern Ontario might want to separate from largely urban southern Ontario.
Quebec, as always would be a problem.
You might want to give it back to France.
I didn't know about the three territories (but then again, I couldn't tell you exactly how many territories the U.S. has either*).
*Guam, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, and Micronesia are all that come to mind
"Didn't you Brits last try that in 1812? Seems we kicked you butts back accross the pond."
I apologize to our foreign friends at our, ahem, historical revisionism.
Psst, AFreeBird, we lost the war of 1812. Get back to the books...
Actually, the war of 1812 was started by the United States, during which it unsuccessfully tried to occupy Upper Canada (Now Ontario). They invaded using the 4th Infantry and 3 Michigan militia units and were repelled by a force of Brits, United Empire Loyalists and Iroquois under command of Gen. Brock, during the course of which he captured Detroit.
Gov. William Hull had issued a proclamation that no white man found fighting beside an aboriginal was to be taken prisoner, a clear breach of the customs and usages of war, even in those times.
US forces did manage to take Fort York and caused some damage to the village of York (now Toronto) but left after a departing British soldier left a lit fuse in the powder magazine.
In retaliation, the Brits sacked Washington and caused such fire damage to the Presidential Mansion that the Yanks had to paint it white.
How blind men describe an elephant depends on which part of it they grope.
"In 20 years, Canada will have become states #51-#60"
Have you ever been to Canada? Canadians are no more interested in becoming Americans then we are in becoming Canadians. Maybe one day - but not in 20 years...
Parkman's 16 volume history of the struggle for North America between French and English is one of the prizes of my library.
We actually have a fascinating history, here in the land God gave Cain.;^)
From a nation that requires that you register you're crossbow, I don't think much of them.
Canadian Bacon
A great movie, but I liked "Strange Brew" a little better. Seriously though, there are things that this American truly appreciates about Canada:
1) Molson Golden
2) Ice Hockey
3) Labatt's Blue
4) Lacrosse
5) Molson Golden
But you folks in Montreal really need to attend your Expos games a lot more if you want to keep your team. 8,000 fans a game just simply won't cut it, trust me on this one.
Then there is the issue of the legality of the userpation of sovereignty from the Queen of Hawaii, now before an international court, which makes that state at best a Territory but more probably simply a foreign state under illegal occupation.
;-)
Oh and that flag with the leaf on it, now thats a sign of strong, united power that would scare off any potential aggressor.
OOPS, spelling - should be usurpation.
If I were them, I 'd tell us all to take a flying F . .
'The great do what they will, while the weak suffer what they must' ('The Melian Dialog', Thucydides, The Pelopenesian War). I trust Canadians will not want to have what happenned to the inhabitants of Melos happen to them.
we lost the war of 1812. Get back to the books...
No, we didn't. The British army was routed in the Battle of New Orleans, with almost no casualties for the American forces led by Andrew Jackson, who later became president partly because of his having won that battle. Shortly afterward, word got back that the peace treaty had already been signed in Europe. By the terms of that treaty, the war ended in a draw, with both sides coming out in pretty much as they had gone in(like the way the Korean War ended with North and South Korea divided by the same parallel they had been divided by before). Militarily the war was an American vistory.
I would recommend some people read Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People.
[For a ruler]'it is better to be feared than to be loved' -- The Prince, Macchiavelli.
"by American standards Montreal is not a big city."
Have you ever been in Montreal?????
I have lived in Toronto, Montreal and Boston,
and I would call them all pretty big cities.
My home town, Vancouver, is not too small, either.
Canada 30.75 million
Ontario 11.7 million
Greater Toronto 4.75 million (Toronto exurban area)
City of Toronto 2.5 million (As recently amalgamated)
Depending on if the "greater" population includes the city population that looks pretty close to saying Gary was right. You've got either 7.5 million (about 1/4 of the population) or 4.75 million (just under 1/6), in the area considered Toronto and attached part. Gary said half the population is within 100 miles of Air Canada, that's a circle with a 100 mile radius centered (should I spell that "centred") in downtown Toronto. I'm not sure what Canadian's consider to be the "greater" area of a city. Down here we're usually talking a city that's about 20 miles across (10 mile radius from some center point), with another 10 mile ring around that for the "greater" city (I hate that term BTW, no hit on you, it's a standard use, I just don't like that standard use). So assuming, to make our calculations easier) that Air Canada is in the middle of Toronto, then the greater Toronto figure (1/4 of Canada's population) is in an area with 1/5 of the area Bettman described. So then the question becomes, given how suburban sprawl works, and how many towns tend to form up near big cities, is there another 1/4 of Canada's population in the other 502.4 square miles in Bettman's circle.
Remember, a 100 mile radius circle is a lot bigger than it sounds like. If you drew one around my chair right now (pretty close to the center of Tucson), you'd get all of Phoenix (plus a touch above it) and related suburbs, Tombstone, Benson, Kitt Peak, Green Valley, Sierra Vista, parts of 3 or 4 indian reservations, and a good chunk of Mexico. Actually, given that we're throwing Phoenix in there, THAT circle might equal about half the population of Canada.
Then there is the issue of the legality of the userpation of sovereignty from the Queen of Hawaii, now before an international court
Clive, if you really think that the US is going to pay any attention to any decision of ANY 'international court' as to what is our sovereign territory, other than inquiring from the court 'With what nuclear weapons do you intend to make us?', you have been drinking far too much Molson's.
Don't laugh yanks, those regulations are creeping in to the United States. Your celebrated 2nd amendment has been effectively interpreted out of existence, using psychopathic statutory construction by autocratic courts legislating in the guise of interpretation.
The crossbow must be registered, but not the long bow.
A cloth yard arrow in the hands of a skilled yeoman was capable of pinning a heavy cavalry rider to his horse, and has a much higher rate of fire than a crossbow.
Anyway, the government figures show that 300,000 Canadians are now criminals, having failed to register themselves as gun owners. This is based on government estimates of the number of guns in Canada being about 2.5 million. The government cooked the numbers to make it appear that the majority of Canadians were in compliance and that the law is a success. Other estimates place the number of guns closer to 9 million, which means there are a hell of a lot of unregistered guns in Canada.
Tell me that the law in California is less onerous than the one in Canada.
[For a ruler]'it is better to be feared than to be loved' -- The Prince, Macchiavelli
I am sure the Canadians don't see us as their rulers. Just my opinion, of course.
This question about 100 miles from downtown Ontario misses the main point. About 90% of the Canadian population lives less than 200 miles from the U.S. border. Canada is a buffer on our northern border. It's why most of them watch US TV, other than their own (except for the Francophones, of course).
Greater Toronto (called the GTA) includes the city of Toronto.
4.5 million is not half of 30.75 million.
d'accord.
Most of Canada is Pre-Cambrian Shield.
"Canada 30.75 million
Ontario 11.7 million
Greater Toronto 4.75 million (Toronto exurban area)
City of Toronto 2.5 million (As recently amalgamated)"
Dear discostu,
you need some instruction in geography AND geometry.
Please reread the figures above,
which you yourself quoted.
The part of canada contained in
A circle of 100 mile radius of Toronto
is a subset of Ontario.
Ontario is NOT 1/2 the population of Canada!!!
QED
I am sure the Canadians don't see us as their rulers. Just my opinion, of course.
The meaning of Macchiavelli's statement in this context, is that, given the choice, we should prefer that the Canadians fear us than that they love us.
"Militarily the war was an American vistory."
A “vistory”. – Is that like “history” for the winners? I do not claim to be an historian, but the offensive actions of the United States failed in every attempt to capture Canada. The Brits damned near burned down the White House, and despite starting the war, we agreed to a cessation of hostilities without succeeding at the objective.
That only sounds like a victory to a revisionist...
Most of Canada is Pre-Cambrian Shield.
Kind of appropriate when you remember that back in the cold war, the thing that most Americans knew about Canada is that the DEW line radar network against soviet attack was (mostly) located in the north of the country. Sorry, I just can't resist a setup line for a pun.
I'll give you that one. Went over to Yahoo and 100 miles around Toronto won't get you out of Ontario without going into America. But it does get Bufalo. Gary loses, and in such so do I. I don't feel bad about not being familiar with that chunk of the world, I'm 40 miles from the Mexican border on the Baja side, navigating Ontario is low on my priority list. But I stuck my foot in it, this happens. All one can do is beg forgiveness.
You'll excuse me, but my agency made that ad for Molsen and let me tell you it sold a lot of beer. Capitalism at its finest!
This particular Canadian will not buy any Molson product, specifically because of that ad.
It is an embarrassment to Canadians.
What other country would hit on the idea of using a beer can label for a flag?
That only sounds like a victory to a revisionist...
We beat their army...
That's the definition of victory...
In geopolitical terms, it was a draw...
But in purely military terms, we won...
Your elipsises are excessive and annoying...
Where do you live that is so much less socialistic than Canada or here?
I am in Canada, but frequenly check the pulse on both countries......... your problem is, the Dems get elected too often.......... our problem, the same, but ours are called Liberals......:-}
A completely new constitution is Canada's only hope for survival, at least as country worth living in. Before that change takes place things will get much, much worse. I'm not optimistic.
Then we have better get on with demanding it.
We don't drink enough of it. The doctor that put me on chelation therapy also told me to drink one or two glasses of wine every day. When I virtuously told him that I was using margerine instead of butter, he said "That'll have to stop! Go back to using butter immediately!".
I have heard that, but the danes drink more beer than wine, and isn't it lovely to have your doctor tell you to have a couple of glasses a day.
I also know that butter is better for you than margerine, but I do wish the doctors would make up their minds.
Canadians voted "No".
Failed brainwashing at it's best. :-}
It's going to happen, believe you me, just wait till old-school reformers get into office.
You are giving us all hope....... now if only we knew what the next right-wing party will be. ?
We talking about (aboot) the same ad? The guy standing in front of the big screen talking about his Canadian pride? It's brilliant. IMHO, it makes fun of Americans and our perceptions of Canadians.
The Ontario-Quebec population and economic powers make Confederation lopsided. That may change as British Columbia's population increases and its economic strength as part of the Pacific Rim asserts itself.
Only trouble is, Quebec has been given 25% of the seats in the house, even if their population decreases by 50%... now we're talking lopsided.
canada's sense of self seems to be only that they are not Americans.
Nonsense.
As per the War of 1812, we did not conquer any part of Canada, which remained in the empire, so G. B. (Canada in this discussion) 'won'.
However New England did not secede from the U.S. and we remained independent so we 'won' as well.
P.S. The Battle of New Orleans was fought after the war was officially over.
I am sure the Canadians don't see us as their rulers. Just my opinion, of course.
Thank you, no we certainly don't, on these threads one does get a giggle now and then. :-}
we should prefer that the Canadians fear us than that they love us.
So sorry to disappoint you.. :-}
As per the War of 1812, we did not conquer any part of Canada, which remained in the empire, so G. B. (Canada in this discussion) 'won'. However New England did not secede from the U.S. and we remained independent so we 'won' as well.
Neither side achieved its war aims. Neither side gained any advantage by the outcome of the war. Hence, a draw.
P.S. The Battle of New Orleans was fought after the war was officially over.
I knew that, and mentioned it in my comment. If the treaty had been delayed enough for the battle to happen and word of it to reach Europe, things would've been different. The fact remains, though, that our army beat their army.
The Maple Leafs had a pretty good year.
Say isn't it time for the annual referendum on Quebec?
Remember, a 100 mile radius circle is a lot bigger than it sounds like
Ontario has 1 Million Square Kilometers (415,000 square miles).
Pretty big chunk of land, if you ask me.
Just for interest:
Ontario’s quarter million lakes and countless rivers and streams hold about one-third of the world’s fresh water
"Say isn't it time for the annual referendum on Quebec?"
Actually, we call it the 'Neverendum' because of that recurring feature.;^)
O.K., I have a personal story. Last summer I was travelling with a couple of guys in Europe. One of my friends complained every time he saw a backbacker wearing a small Candian flag on his backpack, "They only do it to tell Euopeans that they are not Americans, you know." We had met some Canadians, more than one of whom was extremely unpleasant to us, and the truth of this repeated remark etched itself into our consciences. And so, despite their presence everywhere we went, we did our best to ignore them. We, proudly, were Americans. Well, these three proud Americans one day found themselves in Florence, Italy. Florence is a beautiful city, of course, and we did our best to absorb high culture and beauty and art. We were not "ugly Americans" at all. On the contrary. Hey, I even changed my shirt before going to the Uffizi to look at Renaissance paintings. And I spoke Italian at least three times! But, anyway, on our last night there we stumbled upon a free open-air concert of Irish musicians in a piazza across the Arno. The music was great and there were pretty girls and an open-air bar. We were happy. Unfortunately, Europe does have one major problem which is particularly acute in Florence, and especially for American guys sitting around late at night drinking beer, and lots of it. There are no bathrooms. We panicked. We clenched our teeth. We endured pain. At length, we found some large shrubbery down a dark alley. And after midnight, stumbling our way back to our hotel, I noticed a dumspter surrounded by consrruction equipment near the river. Doing our thing from the bridge would not have been too cool, so, I said to one of my friends, "Look, here's a place, behind this dumpster." So, it was with great sighs of relief that we began to water this particular dumpster when, to our sudden alarm, a car screeched to a halt right there with a very large Italian man in it who shouted to us "What do you think you are doing?!" And before we could answer he continued, almost angrily, "Where are you from?!" TO which, of course, I immediately replied at the top of my lungs, "CANADA!"
Happily, the car sped away, as my anti-Canadian friends doubled over in laughter. The moral of this story? Don't ever get caught being an ugly American when visiting Florence.
We, the U.S., did get one great lesson from that war. It showed the need for a modern professional officer corps for our army. We built the U.S. Army in such a way as to never again embarass ourselves in war. In one way the real loser of the war was Mexico.
The most important fact has not been mentioned.
The Canada-Us border had been undefended on both sides since the end of the War of 1812.
That is 187 years.
America's expansionist aspirations toward Canada have not re-emerged since then, except for some silliness about "Manifest Destiny" at the beginning of the 20th century and that was entirely political, not military.
Britain stopped pressing American seamen and, apart from arresting slavers, respected American flagged ships as belonging to a sovereign nation and New England merchants stopped flying British colours for RN protection while denying the RN's right to press seamen from ships flying those colours.
It is true that the outcome was indecisive, but both sides were able to claim victory and the air was cleared between them. The relationship became a mature one as between sovereigns.
In a peculiar way, the war ended the residual bad feelings arising from the rebellion.
Thanks for setting the record straight re War of 1812. I am stunned that we teach people that the Americans lost.
I am talking about the ad called "The Rant".
Perhaps subconsciously one of the reasons I hate it is that Sheila loves it.
That Sheila about whom Crosby said, when she was late for a panel discussion: "Her broom had engine trouble".
So sorry to disappoint you.. :-}
Right now this is not a problem. Should it ever become a problem, this will change.
Say isn't it time for the annual referendum on Quebec?
Yes it is, but Bernard Laundry is afraid of it, he knows the separatists will loose AGAIN, I even offered to help them pack.
That WAS funny.
Right now this is not a problem. Should it ever become a problem, this will change.
LOL, you will be sure to let me know, won't you.?
Well, whenever I contact my old friends, now, I sign off by saying "Don't be too much of a Canadian!"
Is it always cold there? (No--only in winter.)
Been bass fishing north of Toronto every summer for years--in July. Like as not, it's colder'n snot.
LOL, you will be sure to let me know, won't you.?
If it happens, you'll be sure to notice. See reference to 'The Melian Dialogue', #139 above.
I had some canadiEns in my group on a tour of Europe. For the first week, they wore their canadien flag pins on their shirts.
eventually they gave up on that. But EVERY SINGLE THING that they could link to Canada...they did. driving by the Ferarri plant, the dad says "oh so-and-so from Canada drives for Ferrari" etc etc etc. The best one though was at the colesium in Rome.... a local guide is telling us about silk cloth that used to be pulled over the top of the colesium to block the sun and it only took "about 20 minutes." So canadian dad says "oh yeah, thats about the same amount of time it takes to close the dome in Toronto."
Luckily they didn't have that Toronto accent. Yeah, thats the one I'm talking abooooooooooot.
Oh and that flag with the leaf on it, now thats a sign of strong, united power that would scare off any potential aggressor.
I wasn't aware that a mere flag was supposed to scare off aggressors.
What other country would hit on the idea of using a beer can label for a flag?
Hummmm Clive, I thought the flag was here first.
"I wasn't aware that a mere flag was supposed to scare off aggressors".
Oh you're not are you? You ever hear of the Jolly Roger pal? What do you think, they designed that for friendly public relation voyages?
Operation Napkin took place in England.
And Canada. Go to OVERLAWYERED.COM.
Re :Didn't you Brits last try that in 1812? Seems we kicked you butts back accross the pond.
Yeh but we weren’t really trying then.
And you're soooooooo good at it. :-}
Ah shicks blush
snigger
Oh you're not are you? You ever hear of the Jolly Roger pal? What do you think, they designed that for friendly public relation voyages?
That sir was not a national flag merely a banner, but just in case, may I suggest that the star and stripes as beautiful as it is, does not evoke fear.
What aboot a great Canadian song.
I want to be... A LUMBERJACK! Leaping from tree to tree! As they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia! With my best girl by my side! The Larch! The Pine! The Giant Redwood tree! The Sequoia! The Little Whopping Rule Tree! We'd sing! Sing! Sing!
Oh, I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay, I sleep all night and I work all day.
CHORUS: He's a lumberjack, and he's okay, He sleeps all night and he works all day.
I cut down trees, I eat my lunch, I go to the lavatree. On Wednesdays I go shoppin' And have buttered scones for tea.
Mounties: He cuts down trees, he eats his lunch, He goes to the lavatree. On Wednesdays he goes shoppin' And has buttered scones for tea.
I cut down trees, I skip and jump, I like to press wild flowers. I put on women's clothing, And hang around in bars.
Mounties: He cuts down trees, he skips and jumps, He likes to press wild flowers. He puts on women's clothing And hangs around.... In bars???????
I chop down trees, I wear high heels, Suspenders and a bra. I wish I'd been a girlie Just like my dear papa.
Mounties: He cuts down trees, he wears high heels Suspenders and a .... a Bra????
That sir was not a national flag merely a banner, but just in case, may I suggest that the star and stripes as beautiful as it is, does not evoke fear.
Oh really. What the hell do you think has kept us free for over 200 years and the world stabilized, my canadian friend? Tell the Japanese and Nazis during world war II that the stars and stripes did not evoke fear. If it were not for the stars and stripes Mr. Maple leaf, the world would be a much meaner and nastier place today and probably in total chaos.
America has the smartest, toughest, and most proud free people on earth, and our flag says that, and you know it, my Canadian friend.
America has the smartest, toughest, and most proud free people on earth, and our flag says that, and you know it, my Canadian friend.
Sorry you need to feel that way, the American flag will never strike fear in me. To me, a flag represents pride and love for ones country, nothing more nothing less.
You wrote:
"may I suggest that the star and stripes as beautiful as it is, does not evoke fear".
I responded:
Oh really. What the hell do you think has kept us free for over 200 years and the world stabilized, my canadian friend? Tell the Japanese and Nazis during world war II that the stars and stripes did not evoke fear. If it were not for the stars and stripes Mr. Maple leaf, the world would be a much meaner and nastier place today and probably in total chaos.
America has the smartest, toughest, and most proud free people on earth, and our flag says that, and you know it, my Canadian friend.
I noticed you now have changed you're statement and added,
" Sorry you need to feel that way, the American flag will never strike fear IN ME. TO ME, a flag represents pride and love for ones country, nothing more nothing less".
Go to war with us or attack us, as some have attempted, and I am confident you're weak and inaccurate statement will change again.
Its unfortunate for you, there are thousands here that noticed you're quick change of statement
USA #1
"America has the smartest, toughest, and most proud free people on earth, and our flag says that, and you know it, my Canadian friend."
As an American, I apologise to any non-American for the jingoistic remarks and boorish behaviour of Hadenuf. This type of arrogance is not reflective of our population at large.
i hoped you'd chime in, sis. let's remember and thank you all once again for the rescue of those of our hostages in iran that canada smuggled out way back then.
Oh Jesus Christ can you people stop acting like liberals I mean children! (same thing)
To tell you the truth I am Canadian as I said and this is what I think and I'm not going to be partisan about it:
Canada Con's:
* - Constitutional Republic gives head of state dictator like powers. Not kept in check
* - Charter of Rights and Freedoms not as strong as Bill Of Rights by far
* - Socialized health care is bullshit
* - No right to bear arms
* - Under populated
* - Not enough National Unity
USA Con's:
* - Way too much crime
* - Poverty out of control due to high immigration
* - Not enough poeple have health care coverage (not gov's fault)
* - Takes way too long to get anything made into law (took 5 months to get tax cut past, in Canada would have taken 2 weeks)
* - Politicans are way too corrupt, and special interest groups have way too much power.
See we all have our problems, and we are diffrent, but we are all alike so DEAL WITH IT!!!
" Sorry you need to feel that way, the American flag will never strike fear IN ME. TO ME, a flag represents pride and love for ones country, nothing more nothing less".
Your point ........... please.?
This type of arrogance is not reflective of our population at large.
Yeah, I know that, but these threads seem to attract all the chest beating bravado filled kind of people, guess this is where they think they can shine...... not. :-}
i hoped you'd chime in, sis.
Well, I wasn't going to, but Tony Cavanagh dragged me in..... he is such a trouble maker. :-}
let's remember and thank you all once again for the rescue of those of our hostages in iran that canada smuggled out way back then.
HEHE, even that has been turned around by some chest beaters....sure is a strange world.
You forgot to add how quickly the politicians here gave them selves a 45% raise.
LOL, I saw the thread, decided to give these little people a pass, allow them to rant and vent......... they seem to need it.... :-}
When I was about 10 years old, I thought all they made in Canada, were hockey players. Maybe I was not so far from the truth. LOL, sorry, I could not resist that. :-)
California has more people (33.9 million) and a larger economy than Canada or Australia... 'nuft said.
"Canada, compared to the United States, is not a free country."
Is it even a country at all? The queen of another country (England) is on their currency, for crying out loud...
Mexico has the 2nd largest proven oil reserves in the world. We should be develop the interior of Mexico, not just the border regions, and leave Canada to the socialists.
Mexico has 3 1/3 times the population and 10 times the potential. And labor is cheap, $0.37 cents per hour (U.S. denomination) in the rural areas as of April 1st, 2001.
Its unfortunate for you, there are thousands here that noticed you're quick change of statement
What in the world are you talking about????
When I was about 10 years old, I thought all they made in Canada, were hockey players. Maybe I was not so far from the truth. LOL, sorry, I could not resist that. :-)
Nah, we make dumb politicians too. :-}
O lord, I don't blame that kid for thinking that all we make is hockey players....i mean member that study that said that most kids don't know who america declared independace from? Now that's sad!
O lord, I don't blame that kid for thinking that all we make is hockey players....i mean member that study that said that most kids don't know who america declared independace from? Now that's sad!
LOL, good grief, where those kids theirs, ours or both.?
american kids
According to overlawyered.com, it took place in England, not Canada:
In Canada's National Post, John O'Sullivan writes that his "attention was caught by a small item in the British press: Police in Gloucester are cracking down on local racism by entering restaurants in disguise and listening for racist conversation. In the first week of 'Operation Napkin,' one man was arrested for racially aggravated harassment. Another was overheard mimicking an Indian waiter, but the police decided that his behavior did not warrant prosecution." (John O'Sullivan, "Operation Napkin to the Rescue", National Post, March 28, link now dead).
It says the operation took place in Gloucester, England, and was reported in the British press.
216 Posted on 10/04/2001 05:04:27 PDT by BlairS
217 Posted on 10/04/2001 16:48:06 PDT by Oak and Thistle
218 Posted on 10/04/2001 16:51:45 PDT by Oak and Thistle
219 Posted on 10/04/2001 17:10:13 PDT by Untouchable
220 Posted on 10/04/2001 17:47:40 PDT by Untouchable
221 Posted on 10/04/2001 19:32:56 PDT by Alpenkatze
222 Posted on 10/04/2001 23:30:50 PDT by Oak and Thistle
223 Posted on 10/04/2001 23:55:07 PDT by Untouchable
224 Posted on 10/05/2001 00:06:15 PDT by Nogbad
225 Posted on 10/05/2001 00:10:26 PDT by MadIvan
That's a good idea. Byzantium is interesting.
226 Posted on 10/05/2001 09:24:33 PDT by A.J.Armitage
That wasn't even a Constitution, it was a railway contract!
227 Posted on 10/05/2001 09:41:02 PDT by Lorenb420
I've lived in Canada for about 24 years now. I'm still working on getting the h*ll out!
1. Canadian knowledge of the United States, In Canadian High Schools there are two American History courses, that go far beyond anything my children were taught in public school in Texas, you would be hard pressed to find a Canadian who didn't live on the arctic tundra who didn't have a general knowledge of the United States, By the way, Rick Mercer is funny as hell.
I didn't have those courses in my high school, or perhaps they were available but not mandatory.
2. Healthcare, Everyone has an agenda and everyone spins stories so they compliment their personal agenda, I would say that the public healthcare is somewhat better than a good HMO, everyone with an agenda loves a good horror story, 99% of Americans will never have a problem here, 99% of Canadians will never have a problem there.
Last time I went to the hosipital, I was being born. In that sense, I've never had a problem with Canada's healthcare system. However the costs of the socialist health care system, are something that I have a problem with every 2 weeks!
3. Politics, Canada has had since 1993 a Liberal government, I would consiter the Chretien Liberals to be Center-Right on a fiscal bearing, although with the exception of homosexual rights, they are certainly on the left where social issues are concerned, the offical opposition is lead by a certifiable idiot named Stockwell Day who is quite simply an absolute disaster, the clown is polling around 6% at the moment, the Canadian Alliance is quite simply, falling apart and drifting into irrelivence, there is no offical opposition to speak of.
Chretien is a dictator, plain and simple. He's only slightly ahead of Castro or Sadaam. Does GWB sell real estate on cocktail napkins? Even Clinton probably has more class than that.
4. Guns, Seriously, the average Canadian couldn't care much less
I care, I would like to be able to defend myself, however if you talk about guns here, you'll be called either a) an American or b) plain crazy, maybe both. It's almost a crime to talk about guns, it's certainly not acceptable.
5. Taxes, It depends on the state, If you live in a place like California or New York, and you move to a place like Alberta or Ontario, you will over all pay less in taxes, if you move from a part of the country that has very low or no State taxes you will pay more. Federal taxes are higher, Provincial (state) taxes are lower, if you take into account a lower cost of living, you probably wouldn't notice
The US doesn't have VAT taxes like the GST. Or do they?
6. Quebec, These idiots were screaming long before 1776 that they want independance, although keep in mind these are the french after-all, if they launched a revolution, they would probably surrender to the first crop duster that flies over-head!
Yeah, but their screaming and whining have paid off. They are allowed to do whatever they feel like, no matter what the other provinces say. It's all for national unity or something. What a joke.
228 Posted on 10/05/2001 10:15:12 PDT by Lorenb420
229 Posted on 10/05/2001 12:15:43 PDT by Oak and Thistle
230 Posted on 10/05/2001 12:19:12 PDT by GodBlessRonaldReagan
231 Posted on 10/06/2001 07:14:07 PDT by Oak and Thistle
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