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A CONSIDERATION:
WAS AMERICA DISCOVERED IN 1170
by PRINCE MADOC AB OWAIN GWYNEDD OF WALES?
By: Jayne Wanner
History 2A
Dr. Spear
9/21/95
In 1170 A.D., a certain Welsh prince, Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, sailed away from his homeland, which was filled with war and strife and battles between his brothers. Yearning to be away from the feuds and quarrels, he took his ships and headed west, seeking a better place. He returned to Wales brimming with tales of the new land he found--warm and golden and fair. His tales convinced more than a few of his fellow countrymen, and many left with him to return to this wondrous new land, far across the sea.
This wondrous new land is believed to be what is now Mobile Bay, Alabama. Time has left several blank pages between the legend of Madoc and the "history" of America, with its reports of white Indians who speak Welsh, and these blank pages have been the subject of much controversy in certain circles over the five centuries since Columbus discovered the New World.
Although in 1500 it may have made a significant difference exactly who first discovered--and therefore lay claim to--the North American Continent, that time has passed. In 1995, the relevance of the subject rests in the area of its interest to a student of history, rather than its significance to the world. This admission made, the story of Madoc, and the chronicle of the "Welsh Indians" will be explored, and the connection between the two will be considered for its place in that blank chapter of history.
Owain Gwynedd, succeeded his father, Gruffydd ap Cynan as ruler of the Gwynedd province of Wales in 1138.2 His thirty-two-year reign was a bloody and turbulent time of constant warfare between the Norman barons and the Welsh chieftans. Though he strived during his rule for both the prosperity of his people and the unity of all Welsh kingdoms against the English3 his aims were hindered by the treacherous feuding within his own ranks. Although well known for his ". . .fierce and brutal penalties for disloyalty. . .",4 he was nevertheless remembered as a mighty soldier and a great leader by his own people, and considered the "King of Wales" by those in England and other lands.5
Owain was said to have had seventeen sons, including Madoc, and at least two daughters, although few were considered legitimate by the churchmen of the time. This confused situation led to bitter dispute as to who among his sons would succeed him6 and his death in 1169 plunged his country into civil war.
It was this civil war from which Madoc fled. His story was repeated by bards and recorded throughout the next four centuries by various historians, but concise and detailed accounts would not be found until after the introduction of printing.7 Perhaps the earliest printed account of Madoc's story is from Dr. David Powel's The Historie of Cambria published in 1584:
Madoc. . .left the land in contention betwixt his brethern and prepared certain shipps with men and munitions and sought adventures by seas, sailing west. . .he came to a land unknown where he saw manie strange things. . . . Of the viage and returne of this Madoc there be manie fables faimed, as the common people do use in distance of place and length of time, rather to augment than diminish; but sure it is that there he was. . . .And after he had returned home, and declared the pleasant and fruitfulle countries that he had seen without inhabitants, and upon the contrarie part, for what barren and wilde ground his brethern and nepheues did murther one another, he prepared a number of shipps, and got with him such men and women as were desirous to live in quietnesse, and taking leave of his freends tooke his journie thitherward againe. . . .This Madoc arriving in the countrie, into which he came in the yeare 1170, left most of his people there, and returning back for more of his own nation, acquaintance, and friends, to inhabit that fayre and large countrie, went thither againe.8
Madoc's story was related in A Brief Discription of the Whole World (1620); a version was told by Sir Thomas Herbert in the last section of his Relation of Some Years Travaile (1626), based on what Sir Thomas said were records of "200 years agoe and more"9; the Dutch writer Hornius tells of Madoc in De Originibus Americanis (1652); and Richard Hakluyt's Principall Navigations (1600) establishes the fact that the story of Madoc existed before the time of Columbus.10 Hakluyt, a geographer as well as an historian, had a reputation for being a perfectionist. His work is thoroughly researched and supported by foreign as well as British sources.11
Gutyn Owen was a renowned Welsh historian and geneologist with a well documented career and a number of famous works of Welsh literature to his credit. His writings are cited as sources of Madoc's story by a number of authors, and the fact that his account of Madoc was written before 1492 ". . .refutes the criticism that the Madoc story was brought forward after 1492 in order that Great Britain could claim prior rights to the new world.12
" Among the writings of Madoc's story are found suppositions of his landing in the West Indies, in Mexico, and in the Alabama-Florida region of North America. The scope of this paper dictates pursuit of the latter theory--more specifically, Mobile Bay, Alabama.
The choice of Mobile Bay as Madoc's landfall and the starting point for his colonists is grounded in two main areas. One is the logical assumption that the ocean currents13 would have carried him into the Gulf of Mexico. Once there and seeking a landing site, he would have been attracted to the perfect harbor offered in Mobile Bay, as were later explorers Ponce de Leon, Alonzo de Pineda, Hernando de Soto, and Amerigo Vespucci.14
The second, and more convincing reason, is a series of pre-Columbian forts built up the Alabama River, and the tradition handed down by the Cherokee Indians of the "White People" who built them. Testimony includes a letter dated 1810 from Governor John Seiver of Tennessee in response to an inquiry by Major Amos Stoddard. Governor Seiver refers to a time he spent with the Cherokee in 1782, and relates a conversation he had with Oconostota, who had been the ruling chief of the Cherokee Nation for nearly sixty years. Seiver had asked the Chief about the people who had left the "fortifications" in his country. The chief told him: "It is handed down by the Forefathers that the works had been made by the White people who had formerly inhabited the country. . ." and gave him a brief history of the "Whites." When asked if he had ever heard what nation these Whites had belonged to, Oconostota told Seiver that he ". . .had heard his grandfather and father say they were a people called Welsh, and that they had crossed the Great Water and landed first near the mouth of the Alabama River near Mobile. . .."15
Three major forts, completely unlike any known Indian structure, were constructed along the route settlers arriving at Mobile Bay would have taken up the Alabama and Coosa rivers to the Chattanooga area. Archaeologists have testified that the forts are of pre-Columbian origin, and most agree they date several hundred years before 1492. All are believed to have been built by the same group of people within the period of a single generation, and all bear striking similarities to the ancient fortifications of Wales.16 The first fort, erected on top of Lookout Mountain, near DeSoto Falls, Alabama, was found to be nearly identical in setting, layout, and method of construction, to Dolwyddelan Castle in Gwynedd, the presumed birthplace of Madoc.17
The situation of the forts, blended with the accounts given by the Indians of the area, has led to a plausible reconstruction of the trail of Madoc's colonists. The settlers would have traveled up the Alabama River and secured themselves at the Lookout Mountain site, which took months, maybe even years to complete. It is presumed the hostility of the Indians forced them to move on up the Coosa River, where the next stronghold was established at Fort Mountain, Georgia. Situated atop a 3,000 foot mountain, this structure had a main defensive wall 855 feet long, and appears to be more hastily constructed than the previous fort. Having retreated from Fort Mountain, the settlers then built a series of minor fortifications in the Chatanooga area, before moving north to the forks of the Duck River (near what is now Manchester, Tennessee), and their final fortress, Old Stone Fort. Formed by high bluffs and twenty-foot walls of stone, Old Stone Fort's fifty acres was also protected by a moat twelve hundred feet long. Like the other two major defense works, Old Stone Fort exhibits engineering proficiency well beyond the skills of the Indians.18
The trail of the settlers becomes more speculative with the desertion of Old Stone Fort. Chief Oconostota, in relating his tribal history, tells of the war that had existed for years betweenthe White people who had built the forts and the Cherokee. Eventually a treaty was reached in which the Whites agreed to leave the area and never return. According to Oconostota, the Whites followed the Tennessee River down to the Ohio, up the Ohio to the Missouri, then up the Missouri ". . .for a great distance. . .but they are no more White people; they are now all become Indians...."19
Chief Oconostota's testimony has been very thoroughly followed up by later historians,20 and several points have been corroborated with other reports of "bearded Indians" and their trek upriver in retreat from hostile natives. Throughout the years ". . .there was abundant evidence. . .that travelers and administrators had met Indians who not only claimed ancestry with the Welsh, but spoke a language remarkably like it."21
It must be assumed that the remaining settlers were eventually assimilated by Indians, and that by the early eighteenth century very few traces of their Welsh ancestry remained. Although several tribes have been considered as possible descendants of the Welsh settlers, the most likely is the Mandan tribe, who once inhabited villages along tributaries of the Missouri River.22
These Mandan villages were visited in 1738 by a French explorer, The Sieur de la Verendrye, and he kept a detailed journal describing the people and their villages. At the time of Verendrye's visit, the tribe numbered about 15,000 and occupied eight permanent villages. The Mandan chief told him that the tribe's ancestors had formerly lived much farther south but had been driven north and west by their enemies.23 Verendrye described the Mandans as "white men with forts, towns and permanent villages laid out in streets and squares."24 He indicated that their customs and lifestyle were totally different from other tribes he had encountered, and was the first of many to remark about the beards of their men, the grey hair of their older people, and the magnificent beauty of their women! The Mandans had several visitors throughout the next century, (including Louis and Clark in 1804), each one reiterating the striking differences in their culture and appearance.
The Mandans had been repeatedly driven out of their villages and forced upriver by their continual conflicts with the Sioux. By the 1830s, when George Catlin made his memorable visit, their numbers had decreased by two thirds. Catlin spent several years living with, studying, and painting various Indian tribes, and in 1841 published his classic work: Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Condition of the North American Indians. He devoted sixteen of his fifty-eight chapters to the Mandans, explaining:
I have dwelt longer on the history and customs of these people than I have or shall on any other tribe. . .because I have found them a very peculiar people. From the striking peculiarities in their personal appearance, in their customs, traditions, and language, I have been led conclusively to believe that they are a people of a decidedly different origin from that of any other tribe in these regions.25
Catlin was so impressed by these differences that he speculated that the Mandan tribe could very well be the remains of the lost colony of Madoc.26 Although he had no Welsh ancestry himself, and no particular motivation for pursuing this theory,27 he went to great effort to investigate their origin and traced their migration up the Missouri and Ohio Rivers. His book contains several pages, including a vocabulary comparing numerous Mandan and Welsh words,28 in support of his theory. He reflects, "If my reasons do not support me, they will at least be worth knowing, and may be the means of eliciting further and more successful enquiry."29
When Catlin left the Mandans in August, 1833, he did not know his would be the last, and probably most important, account of the Mandan tribe. They had survived a trans-Atlantic voyage; they had survived the Cherokee; they had survived an eighteen-hundred mile migration; they had even managed to survive the Sioux. Like so many other Indian tribes, they did not survive the smallpox epidemic introduced to them by traders in 1837. Now considered extinct, the Mandans do however, lay claim to the distinction of being the only Indian tribe never to have been at war with the United States.30
Throughout the centuries, scholars and historians have argued for and against the Madoc story. The classic work denying the entire idea was written in 1858 by the distinguished Welsh scholar, Thomas Stephens. So thorough and detailed was his essay, it was considered the best work submitted for a competition held on the subject. Ironically, his prize was denied as his article refuted the theme rather than proved it.31
Current naysayers include Samuel Eliot Morison, who emphatically dismisses the entire subject as nothing more than a fable. He accepts no connections between the White Settlers and the Chattanooga area forts. He renounces all associations linking the tales of the Welsh Indians to the Mandans, acknowledging only the report of John Evans indicating that he met no Welsh speaking Indians when he spent one winter with the Mandans in the 1790s. Although Evans' character itself and motives for the report are questionable,32 Morison embraces his brief findings, while only mentioning George Catlin in his bibliography, stating that his Notes and Letters ". . .gave the legend a new lease on life. . .with phony comparative vocabulary."33 Where Richard Deacon devotes an entire book to detailed research on the subject, Morison only mentions it in his notes, indicating that Deacon ". . .pulls all the travelers tales together. . .he feels there must be something in it, but cannot say what."34 He attributes the claim of discovery to the eagerness of the Tudor court historians (of Welsh descent) ". . .to claim priority over Spain in the New World."35 His basic attitude may be summarized with the following line: "As Bernard De Voto well observed, the insubstantial world of fairies and folklore is as real as the visable world to Celtic peoples."36
Not everyone shares Morison's view, for in November, 1953 a memorial tablet was erected at Fort Morgan, Mobile Bay, Alabama by the Virginia Cavalier Chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution, which reads:
In memory of Prince Madoc, a Welsh explorer, who landed on the shores of Mobile Bay in 1170 and left behind, with the Indians, the Welsh language.
1 Richard Deacon, Madoc and the Discovery of America, p. 237.
2 Ibid, p. 34
3 Ibid, p. 39
4 Ibid, p. 37
5 Ibid, p. 39
6 Ellen Pugh, Brave His Soul, p. 5.
7 Op. cit., Deacon, p 29.
8 Frances Gibson, The Seafarers: Pre-Columbian Voyages to America, pp. 187-188
9 Frederick J. Pohl, Atlantic Crossings Before Columbus, p. 171.
10 Op. cit., Gibson p. 188.
11 Op. cit., Deacon, p 68.
12 Op. cit., Gibson p. 191.
13 Op. cit., Deacon, p 180.
14 Op. cit., Pugh, pp 105-106.
15 Op. cit., Deacon, p 68.;Op. cit.,Pugh, pp. 107-108.
16 Op. cit., Gibson, p 203.
17 Op. cit., Pugh p. 112.
18 Op. cit., Deacon, pp 201-206.; Op. cit., Pugh, p 111-118.
19 Op. cit., Gibson, p 205.
20 Op. cit., Deacon, p 209.
21 Ibid, p. 114
22 Ibid, p. 210
23 Op. cit., Pugh p. 83.
24 Op. cit., Deacon, p 211.
25 Mooney, Michael M., George Catlin, 1796-1872, Letters and Notes on the North American Indians, p. 209
26 Ibid, p. 224
27 Op. cit., Deacon, p 215.
28 Op. cit., Mooney, p 228.
29 Ibid, p. 228
30 Op. cit., Pugh, p 100.
31Op. cit., Deacon, p 9.
32 Op. cit., Deacon, pp 137-150.
33 Samuel Eliot Morison, The European Discovery of America, p. 106.
34 Ibid, p. 106
35 Ibid, p. 85
36 Ibid, p. 85
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Deacon, Richard, Madoc and the Discovery of America: Some New Light on an Old Controversy, George Braziller, Inc., N.Y., N.Y., 1966.
Gibson, Frances, The Seafarers: Pre-Columbian Voyages to America, Dorrance & Company, Philadelphia, 1974.
Mooney, Michael M., Ed., George Catlin, 1796-1872. Letters and Notes on the North American Indians, Clarkson N. Potter, Inc., N.Y., N.Y., 1975, First Edition.
Morison, Samuel Eliot, The European Discovery of America - The Northern Voyages, A.D. 500-1600, Oxford University Press, N.Y., N.Y., 1971.
Pohl, Frederick J., Atlantic Crossings Before Columbus, W. W. Norton, Inc., N.Y., N.Y., First Ed., 1961.
Pugh, Ellen, Brave His Soul: The Story of Prince Madog of Wales and His Discovery of America in 1170, Dodd, Mead & Company, N.Y., N.Y., 1970.
Great find. Thanks.
Thanks for posting this...will read later
Yeah - but does anyone want to call the capital of this nation "The District of Gwyneddia"?
The body found in Washington St. with the spear in the back was said to be a white man's over 6,000 yrs old. That before CLINTON had the Corp of Engineers cover it with tons of dirt. They have found Viking camps in Minn.,and New Hanprise, so it was possible white Europeans cound have been here before the Indain's, but were killed off. Of course this is not politically correct.
Right! And move it down to the Alabama coast!!
Maybe they weren't killed off. Maybe they married and were assimilated.
Old Tales Retold
by Ken
McCutchan
The Evansville Courier
Sunday, February 6,
1994
Along the Anderson River in Perry County, Indiana, not far from the town of Troy, Indiana, there was once a curious structure that the early settlers called Troxel's Horseshoe.
It was a stone fortification about 4 feet high built in the shape of a horseshoe some 200 feet in circumference.
Since this was not the type of structure that any of the Indians known to have inhabitied the area would likely have built, a fanciful legend credits it to early white travelers -- Spanish pirates who came up the Ohio River and built it as a retreat when they had to defend themselves.
Out of this grew stories of fabulous buried treasure, and for years the credulous dug and probed until the site was virtually destroyed. So far as anyone knows, no treasure was found.
In light of current knowledge, it seems entirely possible that this unusual structure was built at a very early date by white men, but not Spanish pirates.
There is a Welsh legend in verse and song about a prince named Madoc ab Owain Gwynnedd who sailed with two ships from North Wales in 1170, more than 300 years before Columbus, to explore the western ocean. He returned and reported that he had found a "pleasant and fruitful land" and had left 120 men behind to build a settlement.
The prince organized a second expedition with two of his brothers and set out with seven ships and 300 men, women and children to form a colony, but they were never heard from again.
As American history is generally taught, the first Welsh people came to this continent in the 17th century. They were followers of Roger Williams, who founded the Rhode Island colony in 1631. However, these Welsh people reported meeting Indians with whom they could converse in their native tongue.
In 1721, a Catholic missionary, Father Charlevoix, traveled from Canada to the juncture of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. He was told by Indians there that three days' journey away was a tribe called Omans who had white skin and fair hair, especially the women.
George Catlin, the famous artist, later found a tribe called Mandan on the Missouri River that matched exactly this description, and he reported that many of the words in their language were Welsh.
When all the bits and pieces are put together, it seems possible that Madoc and his people landed in Mobile Bay, worked their way up the Alabama River to Lookout Mountain, then to Old Stone Fort, Tenn., which is supposed to resemble a Welsh fortification, then to Nashville, Tenn., and finally to the falls in the Ohio near Jeffersonville, Ind.
The landing at Mobile Bay is firmly enough believed that the Daughters of the American Revolution has erected an historical marker there that reads: "In memory of Prince Madoc, a Welsh explorer who landed on the shores of Mobile Bay in 1170 and left behind with the Indians the Welsh language."
In Indiana, stories appear in the writings of George Rogers Clark of encounters with white Indians. A large burial ground near his home at Clarksville reportedly contained the bones of ancient white people.
In 1824, this account was left by an unknown writer: "In 1799 six soldier' skeletons were dug up near Jeffersonville. Each skeleton had a breastplate of brass, cast with the Welsh coat of arms, the mermaid and the harp, with the Latin inscription "Virtuous deeds meet their just reward'."
Legend has it that the land around Clarksville was at one time occupied by a white race, but Indians drove them out. According to legend, they went down the Ohio River and settled for a time on an island, but were driven out again. They went to the Mississippi River and up the Missouri River and were not see again until Catlin discovered and painted them.
Brant & Fuller's History of Vanderburgh County gives an account of late 19th-century hunters of Indian relics who unearthed from the riverbank, near the current West Franklin in Posey County,Ind., a bronze ax which appeared to be of Celtic origin.
So it seems entirely possible that Troxel's Horseshoe, similar to the stone fort in Tennessee, was built by the followers of Madoc as they moved from site to site in their journey down the Ohio River. Here is another of the great mysteries of our land that probably will never be satisfactory solved.
St Brendan the Navigator was in North America in the early 500s and sailor/scholars after that used his writings to "discover" this continent. There is even Irish writing know as "oagham" in caves in West Virginia dated before 1000. This Welsh dude probably had access to the acumulated wisdom of the time. Even Columbus stopped in Galway on his way west to pick up an Irish navigator.
Although in 1500 it may have made a significant difference exactly who first discovered--and therefore lay claim to--the North American Continent
According to current "PC" wisdom, no one ever had the power to do that.
Except perhaps the Indians themselves (I've never been able to figure it out).
bump
Okay - No problem.
He discovered America much earlier, as did, most likely, the Vikings coming west from Iceland and Greenland.
So what?
What did either group "do" with the information?
The Chinese sent an explorer south from China almost halfway down Africa's east coast - well past the equator, though he never got to the Cape.
The explorer returned, the chinese never did anything with their discovery ..... and the world (correctly) ignored their otherwise laudable efforts.
Columbus - regardless of ANYTHING else ever said, regardless of anything anybody else wants to believe in this "politically corrupt" era .... DID something that affected the world.
He "published" his findings...he repeated his findings inother places, and he got people moving to new territory.
NOBODY else did that.
Perhaps the earliest printed account of Madoc's story is from Dr. David Powel's The Historie of Cambria published in 1584:
The Flat Earth Society and the Hollow Earth Society both came out of GB too.
What's wrong with this picture?
415 years after the fact and, conveniently, 92 years after Columbus had established the fact that America existed?
Although I really enjoy this sort of maverick story, my BS meter is twitching.
I wish these clowns had learned to write about 100 years sooner.
Interesting read
Bumpin' ya for a later reading.
There are Hieroglyphs and Celtic runes in caves in Oklahoma.
Speak Welsh?
Check out this Gloria Farley site:http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm I don't know how to link. Sorry.
Columbus never discovered America. Even when he arrived.
He was actually working from a map...
He was actually working from a map...
Are you referring to the Piri Reis map? or a Welsh one?
He "published" his findings...he repeated his findings inother places, and he got people moving to new territory.
He also went nuts and I heard he hung people who said he didn't make it to India.
Of course it was. That's why we sing "Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, the Gem of the Ocean."
Of course it was. That's why we sing "Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, the Gem of the Ocean."
Does your BS meter also discount Redbones and Melungeons?
Nope - Didn't have that "power" - at least not when he was back home in Spain.
Columbus was guilty (as I admitted) of many atrocities - including mutilating/killing Indians who attacked his troops left in the islands betwwen trips, troops guilty of revolt, etc.......
Oh well.
I repeat - What did this Welch Prince "do" with his discovery?
If he accomplished nothing but getting killed in Indiana - which appears probable, he didn't affect history.
Would America (the islands, the Central American passage to the Pacific, or North America itself, ever been discovered (usefully)) later - if Columbus had failed ineither raising money, navigting his fleet, or returning toEurope?
Eventually - probably. But he did it.
LOL. I'm familiar with this legend and have it bookmarked. I'm in Mobile, where do I look? We have an Island down here (in the mouth of Mobile Bay) that was once named Massacre Island, now Daulphin Island.(It would be a good suspect area) In 1699 it was the capital of all the Louisiana territories. There are two recent sites reported one in Virginia, "Cactus Hill" and "Topper Hill" in South Carolina. I've seen dates of 17k (pre-Clovis) for Cactus Hill and 20k is being mentioned for Topper Hill. They have discovered some preClovis stone tools/techniques (forgot what it is called) that are generally associated with European cultures of the period.
Does this mean Liar Gore didn't discover America, after all?
My guess is that the Prince ran off with an intern, or went on a year-long bender, and when asked where he'd been, fabricated a story about the New World.
"NOBODY else did that." I don't believe that. In your lifetime, you WILL be proven wrong.
Piri Reis
"The body found in Washington St. with the spear in the back was said to be a white man's over 6,000 yrs old." He is known as Kennewick Man with a two inch spear point in his hip and he is 9,500 years old. Analysis of his skeleton and skull has determined that he was Polynesian/Ainu. Forensic anthropologist, James Chatters, states that the Americans Indians of today are more like all other humans on earth today than they are like Kennewick Man. There are no American Indian remains found that date back further than 6,000 years. Prior to 6k years ago, there were other people here that were different than the present day American Indians.
Nope - Didn't have that "power" - at least not when he was back home in Spain.
He was govenor for a while of Santo Domingo which was in Hispaniola and he was sent back to Spain in chains because of his cruel deeds.
Quite a compelling read. The evidence is certainly strong.
Nope - Didn't have that "power" - at least not when he was back home in Spain.
He was govenor for a while of Santo Domingo which was in Hispaniola and he was sent back to Spain in chains because of his cruel deeds.
Bump
Would America (the islands, the Central American passage to the Pacific, or North America itself, ever been discovered (usefully)) later - if Columbus had failed ineither raising money, navigting his fleet, or returning toEurope?
Eventually - probably. But he did it.
True. Only Columbus was able to raise a second VC round and then do an IPO.
There are Hieroglyphs and Celtic runes in caves in Oklahoma.
E.g., The Heavener (sp?) Runestone, which even has it's own state park.
WAS AMERICA DISCOVERED IN 1170 by PRINCE
MADOC AB OWAIN GWYNEDD OF WALES?
Red Alert citizens of Wales and Americans of Welsh-heritage:
This could open the door to being hit with a larger part of any future "reparations" bill!
(I joking...sort of...)
Of course I meant to say "I'm joking...sort of..."
Aren't we Welsh an enterprising bunch!
Aren't we Welsh an enterprising bunch!????
I'll take bets that the Zulus at Rorke's Drift thought so.
Father Charlevoix...was told by Indians there that three days' journey
away was a tribe called Omans who had white skin and fair hair, especially the women.
George Catlin, the famous artist, later found a tribe called Mandan on the Missouri River
that matched exactly this description, and he reported that many of the words in their
language were Welsh.
Need a cite about this.
I've seen some of Catlin's sketches of the Mandan, but to my eye they looked like
most Native Americans, dark hair, dark eyes, and darker skin that most Western Europeans.
I don't remember seeing any Mandans in the sketches that I'd have said looked "European" or
Caucasian.
Did the history books just hide this? Citation please!
Besides, Catlin came along nearly a century after the story was told to the French father.
My understanding is that the Mandan ladies had the encouragement of their husbands to
sleep with the Europeans as a way to capture a bit of the "power" of the Europeans and
transfer it (via sex) to their husbands and thus strengthen the Mandan tribe.
With the passage of a fair number of European traders and trappers through Mandan territory,
it would not suprise me that Catlin might have seen some fair-haired Mandans, after three or four
generation of the sharing of genetic material between the Mandans and the Europeans.
Welsh history! We may be the original Americans.
Most interesting: In 1721, a Catholic missionary, Father Charlevoix, traveled from Canada to the juncture of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. He was told by Indians there that three days' journey away was a tribe called Omans who had white skin and fair hair, especially the women.
Compare this with the inhabitants of Pitcairn Island, well-documented and with piles of photos and real-life present people.
Far more than just a genenic "fluke," but a fact, the Pitcairn men with minor few exceptions look European, while the females invariably look Polynesian. Beyond noting that, it's rather amazing that no scientists that I know of have tried to do a genetic investigation.
One problem with the report that raises flags for me: this Indian chief said they were "Welsh." "Welsh" is the English word, not the Gymraeg (Brythonic Celtic known as "Welsh"). Doesn't make me doubt the entire story, but this particular report or the reporter.
I should throw in, I suppose, that the Pitcairners are the descendents of the mutaneers of the Bounty and their Tahitian women; there were some Tahitian men too but most of the descendents are the mixed group. Fascinating subject. Pitcairn itself is just about dead now.
Thanks for posting this. Something to read other than condit/levy BS is good!
Of course it was. That's why we sing "Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, the Gem of the Ocean."
Or, as I first learned it, "Atlantis the Gem of the Ocean".
Interesting ............. FYI
Welsh history! We may be the original Americans.
LOL!
Yep!
Wouldn't suprise me at all :)
bump
For further reading, America, B.C by Professor Barry Fell of Harvard.
"For further reading, America, B.C by Professor Barry Fell of Harvard." Barry Fell's follow up to that book is even better, Saga America. He refutes all the arguments made against his claims in, America,BC. There is a Barry Fell web site. I'll see if I can post a URL.
The URL for the Barry Fell web site, I don't know how to link."whhttp://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=Barry+Fell&hc=0&hs=0"
Did you mean this?
http://www.equinox-project.com/DRFEL.HTM
In Praise of Barry Fell: The equinox project
LOL. That just covers the first topic that is contained in this larger section: http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=barry+fell&hc=0&hs=0
There are examples of Celtic Ogam writing reported throughout an "Ogam Corridor" SE of LaJunta Colorado stretching down to upper Cimarron river in Okla.panhandle.Am told Gloria Farley did a lot of work there.
Once spent a memorable week wandering/camping in Nat'l Grassland along CO/OK border--- saw several examples of Ogam.There are a number of very old strange upright stone circles along both sides of the Apishipa River.Lots of amateur speculation about their origins.Fun and interesting stuff!
Bob
Interesting stuff, huh? I read/study a lot of these things as a hobby. I'm actually more interested in even older periods. I'm also interested in how catastropies have affected humankind.
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