Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
Wall Street Journal - Rural Cleansing 7/26/01 Commentary: Rural Cleansing, By Kimberley A. Strassel. Ms. Strassel is an assistant editorial features editor at the Journal.
Federal authorities were forced to cut off water to 1,500 farms in Oregon's and California's Klamath Basin in April because of the "endangered" sucker fish. The environmental groups behind the cutoff continue to declare that they are simply concerned for the welfare of a bottom-feeder. But last month, those environmentalists revealed another motive when they submitted a polished proposal for the government to buy out the farmers and move them off their land.
This is what's really happening in Klamath -- call it rural cleansing -- and it's repeating itself in environmental battles across the country. Indeed, the goal of many environmental groups -- from the Sierra Club to the Oregon Natural Resources Council (ONRC) -- is no longer to protect nature. It's to expunge humans from the countryside.
The Greens' Strategy:
The strategy of these environmental groups is nearly always the same: to sue or lobby the government into declaring rural areas off-limits to people who live and work there. The tools for doing this include the Endangered Species Act and local preservation laws, most of which are so loosely crafted as to allow a wide leeway in their implementation.
In some cases owners lose their property outright. More often, the environmentalists' goal is to have restrictions placed on the land that either render it unusable or persuade owners to leave of their own accord.
The Klamath Basin saga began back in 1988, when two species of suckers from the area were listed under the Endangered Species Act. Things worked reasonably well for the first few years after the suckers were listed. The Bureau of Reclamation, which controls the area's irrigation, took direction from the Fish and Wildlife Service, and tried to balance the needs of both fish and farmers. This included programs to promote water conservation and tight control over water flows. The situation was tense, but workable.
But in 1991 the Klamath basin suffered a drought, and Fish and Wildlife noted that the Bureau of Reclamation might need to do more for the fish. That was the environmentalists' cue. Within two months, the ONRC -- the pit bull of Oregon's environmental groups -- was announcing intentions to sue the Bureau of Reclamation for failure to protect the fish.
The group's lawsuits weren't immediately successful, in part because Fish and Wildlife continued to revise its opinions as to what the fish needed, and in part because of the farmers' undeniable water rights, established in 1907. But the ONRC kept at it and finally found a sympathetic ear. This spring, a federal judge -- in deciding yet another lawsuit brought by the ONRC, other environmental groups, fishermen and Indian tribes -- ordered an unwilling Interior Department to shut the water off. The ONRC had succeeded in denying farmers the ability to make a living.
Since that decision, the average value of an acre of farm property in Klamath has dropped from $2,500 to about $35. Most owners have no other source of income. And so with the region suitably desperate, the enviros dropped their bomb. Last month, they submitted a proposal urging the government to buy the farmers off.
The council has suggested a price of $4,000 an acre, which makes it more likely owners will sell only to the government. While the amount is more than the property's original value, it's nowhere near enough to compensate people for the loss of their livelihoods and their children's futures.
The ONRC has picked its fight specifically with the farmers, but its actions will likely mean the death of an entire community. The farming industrywill lose $250 million this year. But property-tax revenues will also decrease under new property assessments. That will strangle road and municipal projects. Local businesses are dependent on the farmers and are now suffering financially. Should the farm acreage be cleared of people entirely, meaning no taxes and no shoppers, the community is likely to disappear.
Nor has the environment won, even at this enormous cost. The fish in the lake may have water, but nothing else does. On the 200,000 acres of parched farmland, animals belonging to dozens of species -- rabbits, deer, ducks, even bald eagles -- are either dead or off searching for water. And there's no evidence the suckers are improving.
Indeed, Fish and Wildlife's most recent biological opinions, which concluded that the fish needed more water, have been vociferously questioned by independent biologists. Federal officials are now releasing some water (about 16% of the normal flow) into the irrigation canals, but it doesn't help the farmers or wildlife much this year.
Environmentalists argue that farmers should never have been in the "dry" Klamath valley in the first place and that they put undue stress on the land. But the West is a primarily arid region; its history is one of turning inhospitable areas into thriving communities through prudent and thoughtful reallocation of water. If the Klamath farmers should be moved, why not the residents of San Diego and Los Angeles, not to mention the Southwest and parts of Montana and Wyoming? All of these communities survive because of irrigation -- water that could conceivably go to some other "environmental" use.
But, of course, this is the goal. Environmental groups have spoken openly of their desire to concentrate people into cities, turning everything outside city limits into a giant park.
A journalist for the Rocky Mountain News recently noted that in June the Sierra Club posted on its Web site a claim that "efficient" urban density is about 500 households an acre.
This, in case you're wondering, is about three times the density of Manhattan's most tightly packed areas. And it's not as if there were any shortage of open space in the West. The federal government already owns 58% of the western U.S., with state and local government holdings bumping the public percentage even higher.
Balanced Stewardship:
Do the people who give money to environmental groups realize the endgame is to evict people from their land? I doubt it. The American dream has always been to own a bit of property on which to pursue happiness. This dream involves some compromises, including a good, balanced stewardship of nature -- much like what was happening in Klamath before the ONRC arrived.
But this dream will disappear -- as it already is in Oregon and California -- if environmental groups and complicit government agencies are allowed to continue their rural cleansing.
When the Wall Street Journal uses our phrase, "Rural Cleansing", then documents what the enviral nazis are doing in the Klamath Basin Crisis, a big step has been taken!
Rural cleansing must be a phrase that we all use 24/7/365 when referring to the Envirals!
Indeed, the goal of many environmental groups -- from the Sierra Club to the Oregon Natural Resources Council (ONRC) -- is no longer to protect nature. It's to expunge humans from the countryside.
"Environmental groups have spoken openly of their desire to concentrate people into cities, turning everything outside city limits into a giant park.
A journalist for the Rocky Mountain News recently noted that in June the Sierra Club posted on its Web site a claim that "efficient" urban density is about 500 households an acre.
"This, in case you're wondering, is about three times the density of Manhattan's most tightly packed areas.
So now when we cite the rural cleansing the removal of Americans to the Goron voting Inner Cities, we can document that the Club Sierra wants to pack us in like sardines in the Goron Inner cities to 500 household an acre, more density than Manhattan!
Can you spell Soylent Green and say Recycled Food. That is what you will be fed if the Club Sierras and other envirals get their way.
Any conservative who donates to these Green Nazis and doesn't take a stand right now against them, is commiting suicide for himself and his family!
Thank you Kimberley!
FYI the Wall Street Journal is now on our side and is using our terms re Rural Cleansing and relocation!
FYI the Wall Street Journal is now on our side and is using our terms re Rural Cleansing and relocation!
See what you started a few months ago, you mean old lady!
Lets see that scumbag Andy Kerr respond to this editorial!
This is in lock step with the closure of logging roads and the gating of access to our public lands. What is the master plan?
FYI the Wall Street Journal is now on our side and is using our terms re Rural Cleansing and relocation!
Did you and Auntb ever think back in May, that all of what has happened has happened? Great Work!
What is the enviro manifesto?
For your information! Now the Wall Street Journal is spreading our word.
Could you send Kimberly an email with our petitions and other data?
Thanks for your "spear carrying" and being the point lady in the petition and info drives the past two weeks!
Fyi! Don't let Socks eat this editorial!
I would like a copy of the enviro manifesto to read for my own edification to learn what we are up against.
If the sucker fish and Socks don't eat you up this weekend, this would be great to pass around to the folks up there!
Now a Wall Street Journal writer is saying what we have been saying! Rural cleansing is now in the lexicon!
It's nice to see this story making the Journal.
WSJ is about the only paper worth reading anymore.
Thanks for the post GD.
L
Trapper posted, "This is in lock step with the closure of logging roads and the gating of access to our public lands. What is the master plan?"
Absolutely! The closure of logging roads and the gating of access to our public lands is the front line tactic of these Enviral Nazis to cleanse all humans off of their new Green Druid Cathedrals!
Under the smoke screen of enviromental emergency we will loose our rights and freedom. This is an insidiuos attack on constitution. Envro wackos are trying to trump the constitution.
I guess I am really angry since I had so many typos and grammer problems in my last message. I apologize for that. I can do much better. Please be patient with me. I turn off the mental spell check when I am upset. So flame away on a literacy check.
"FYI the Wall Street Journal is now on our side and is using our terms re Rural Cleansing and relocation!"
Even better, "Rural Cleansing" and "Forced Relocation"
I will post a link or two for you to link up re both sides.
The enviral nazis, don't really have a published manifesto that the rest of us can see. You just read what they want to do to us as in this article, close your eyes and think a little about it. Then you have their manifesto!
The link to the real side of the Klamath Basin Crisis, (documentation/writeups on the rural cleansing of S. Oregon and N. California)
The link to the envirals of Oregon and how they for about 2 decades have plotted to rurally cleanse a large part of Oregon. (A list of who's who in the Oregon enviral effort to Rurally cleanse Oregon)
"This is in lock step with the closure of logging roads and the gating of access to our public lands. What is the master plan?"
Look no further than the UN's Agenda 21.
Trapper posted, "I guess I am really angry since I had so many typos and grammer problems in my last message. I apologize for that. I can do much better. Please be patient with me. I turn off the mental spell check when I am upset. So flame away on a literacy check."
Trapper, don't worry about it. You are among friends and news like this enrages all of us! The so called conservatives who don't get emotional about this issue are the ones I have a short fuse with!
TJ Posted, ""FYI the Wall Street Journal is now on our side and is using our terms re Rural Cleansing and relocation!"
Even better, "Rural Cleansing" and "Forced Relocation"
You and I know that. If we start posting and saying that, we will get the tin hat with aluminum antennae classification. I had rather leave it up the readers to decide on how we all will end up in an inner city, cramming 500 families onto an acre, to live in a Goron city!
To control the masses: control the land ,control the food, control transportation and control the economy. Envionmentalism is the mechanism to accomplism those goals and deliver us to the urban enternment.
GREAT article!!! Thank you!!!!!
Support Sovereignty International's Freedom 21. The antithesis of the UN's Agenda 21.
Also, if you've got the time, check out this excellent research material on the Timeline to Global Governance.
Once rural areas have been cleansed 99.9% of our population will live in urban areas, making it much easier to track and control the behavior of citizens.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service offers a little brochure titled "Relocation Assistance" which "...explains the Relocation Assistance regulations covering persons that must move from a property as a result of acquisition".
The U.N. Global Biodiversity Assessment, Section 10.5: "During the initial stages of park and reserve establishment, there may be a transition phase while local inhabitants are provided with options for relocation outside the area..."
Section 10.4.2.2.3 cites "The Wildlands Project" (Reed Noss, The Wildlands Project land conservation strategy, Wild Earth, Special issue, 1992) for the national network of "Protected Areas" interconnected with "Corridors". According to The Wildlands Project, "One half of the land area of the conterminous [united] states be encompassed in core [wilderness] reserves and inner corridor zones within the next few decades..." (little to no human use).
"...what you have here is a turning back and a going forward. It is a bold attempt to grope our way back to October 1492..." Dave Forman, Wild Earth, Special Issue
>>"You and I know that. If we start posting and saying that, we will get the tin hat with aluminum antennae classification."
Oh, you mean you're not wearing yours now..??
Is "Involuntary Relocation" any softer?
Twenty-Five Actions to End Growth in Oregon
by Andy Kerr
Oregon's present population and consumption are environmentally unsustainable. It is imperative that we determine the state's optimal population, end population and consumption growth, and begin the walk toward ecological carrying capacity. By supporting policies that promote true economic, personal, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual growth, we can move Oregon toward sustainability.
This is the type of thinking we're up against.
Egads!!! Just reading the table of contents brings chills down the spine.
Thought you might like to see this also.
bump and a bookmark.
"The Wildlands Project" is a part of Agenda 21.
I want to thank everyone for there links via these replies. I going to check out right now I have time available and reading to do.
Forever lurking
Yours Trapper
Bump, and bookmarked
The House Resource Committee just passed HR-701, THE CARA ACT which will be a major source of funding to facillitate the continued implementation of the objective of The Wildlands Project. CARA is $47 billion over the next 15 years for more land acquisition and grants to enviro groups, ect, ect. This now goes to the full House for a vote. At a time when about 42% of the land is already in government ownership. There needs to be petition drive aganist CARA like the one for the Klamath farmers.
TJ posted, "Oh, you mean you're not wearing yours now..?? Is "Involuntary Relocation" any softer?
Relocation is fine for now.
I learned a long time ago during the CHiCom contribution gate affairs, that even if we are correct, when we use these terms, you can see the lights go off in the eyes of the people we are talking to!
I love it when we have a major newspaper with the impact of the Wall Street Journal with a lead editorial using the words "Rural Cleansing" and however she referred to relocation re jamming 500 family units into an acre. We just have to quote them and leave our tin foil hats in the closet! Only to the left wing extremists is the Wall Street Journal an extreme newspaper. The rest of American look on the WSJ as an excellent newspaper for business and governmental news and editorials! The more Americans who own stocks in their 401k's and IRAs, the more respectful the WSJ becomes and the other fishwraps are seen as propaganda arms to the left wingers!
This is, also, why I like to focus on our local nazis and not bring up the Blue Helmets. Americans know who these local envirals are. Many contribute money to them. If we wake them up to the threat here today and tomorrow from Americans who hate other Americans, we will have done our job!
Finally documentation of what the envirals have done to rural America does not require you or I to wear our tinfoil hats. We just have to read their own publications and go to their web sites for all the documentation we need. Now some Americans are starting to wait up. This WSJ is a great validation tool for us! We can leave our tinfoil hats under our beds on in our closets if we use the envirals own data and this editorial!
People who are setting up tables to get signatures for Jeff's petition can have a copy of this editorial for people to read and to wake up the readers! Now it is not just VRWC like you and I saying bad things about the envirals. The WSJ is validating it, and calling it "Rural Cleansing"!
Amazing what has happened in just this month on this issue!
To my wife, "Honey, would you polish my tinfoil hat and put it back under our bed with the eight guns! Thank you!"
The recognition by the WSJ, of attrocities being committed against the citizens, is a welcome sight, but I don't expect the publicity to alter the motivation or actions of Kerr, or similar creatures and groups.
There is an important factor in such public exposure of wrongdoing, as written in the Declaration of Independence:
... let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
The submission of facts did not convince the British to cease their tyranny, but it did serve to garner support from other countries in the civilized world in the actions which followed against the British.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.
When Americans are finished turning the other cheek, their actions will be supported by tons of documentation, if not by the ignorant masses.
I understand, appreciate, and mostly agree with your point of view. Thanks for the comments. Temperance is very useful.
The fact that the enviro-nazis recently proposed this huge expense of $4,000 per acre to buy the farmers' land indicates that they see they could lose on this issue. They fear the Klammath farmers and this issue. So, they arrogantly assert that the taxpayer should spend this huge amount of money. Any congressman who votes for it should be voted out of office. We are here to fight, not to yield. Any politician, Republican or Democrat, who fails to do this is our enemy.
tex-oma posted, "Twenty-Five Actions to End Growth in Oregon by Andy Kerr:
Oregon's present population and consumption are environmentally unsustainable. It is imperative that we determine the state's optimal population, end population and consumption growth, and begin the walk toward ecological carrying capacity. By supporting policies that promote true economic, personal, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual growth, we can move Oregon toward sustainability.
The current head watermelon posing as governor of Oredone, J. Katznslobber, has been following Kerr's radical anti human way. Oregon lead the way into recession and was named by the Wall St. Journal as one of the states in a serious recession earlier this year.
The Anti business attitude as bad as Washington and the City of Seattle. Major businesses had stopped trying to put in new facilities in Oregon due to the hostile attitude of the greens led by Katznslobber.
The ELF's and Earth First, shock troops who use arson and worse on Americans who disagree with them have run rampant since Katznslobber took office. He and his corrupted OSP say, we don't know who is doing all of this arson and crimes against personal and corporate property. Yeah sure!
As Auntb can tell you, Oregon is not overly populated! Hardly anyone lives east of Klamath Falls to the eastern border and north to the Columbia river.
Then Oregon only has about a dozen populated centers with Portland being the one with the highest density.
This over population is just another lie by Kerr, whose goal is to get rid of all who live in Oregon unless you are an Enviralist SS elite like Kerr!
I have hunted or fished in areas of Oregon, west to the Pacific from Klamath Falls and north to about the Roseburg area and never seen another human all day! A lot of mountain lions and bears which is another issue!
This remark by the SS Enviralist Kerr needs to be highlighted as my close, It is imperative that we determine the state's optimal population, end population and consumption growth, and begin the walk toward ecological carrying capacity.
Excuse me Kerr, who made you the determinate authority in Oregon? Have you ever been elected to a public office? Where do you think you got these powers to determine who gets to live in Oregon, where to live and how to work and consume?
The last people who thought this way were the first National Socialists and the first Enviral Nazis in Germany in the late 1930's and early 1940's. They suffered a huge setback in 1945 and the few years leading up to 1945!
During the 1970's there was a similar issue in the snail darter of Tennessee. Someone wanted to build a chemical plant in Tennessee, the environmentalists said the snail darter was endangered though and the government wouldn't allow them to do it. A politiician from Tennessee named Al Gore introduced legislation to Congress to specifically exclude the snail darter situation in Tennessee from the Endangered Species Act. The law passed the the chemical plant was built thus providing a lot of good construction jobs for Al Gore's constituents. The snail darter's population went up because after construction, just like at Klammath Falls, the concern over the supposedly endangered species was contrived and false.
You may feel this is old history, but it raises the question as to why today's politicians don't introduce similar legislation. Can't we get Congress to examine this issue and vote up or down on it. And if congress does that, then can't we have a way of discriminating at the voting booth against those politicians who in fact are enemies of the American people. If we cannot do this, then the democratic process is broken and our nation will be pushed further towards civil war.
Please note, King George is not on our side on this issue, nor on many others.
This is a great article! I am printing out copies and will hand them out or send web address to everyone I know. Maybe more journalist will begin to pick up on this. Would be a great story for John Stossel.
RJ posted, "The fact that the enviro-nazis recently proposed this huge expense of $4,000 per acre to buy the farmers' land indicates that they see they could lose on this issue. They fear the Klammath farmers and this issue. So, they arrogantly assert that the taxpayer should spend this huge amount of money. Any congressman who votes for it should be voted out of office. We are here to fight, not to yield. Any politician, Republican or Democrat, who fails to do this is our enemy."
Actually, I'm afraid that Andy Kerr had this preplanned. He was back in DC this past week to present a plan to buy out and move out farmers to his buds in Congress! They figured by now, the farmers would be totally without hope and abandoned by America as we watch Barry Bonds hit another HR! The Senate on 13 July had given the death sentence to the farmers when Barbara Boxer lead the Demonicrats to Table Senator Smith's bill to place the farmers into the equation. B$tch Boxer said in her squeaky/nasal NY voice, "The fish need someone to stand up for them!" or some idiotic phrase like that.
Immediately the LA Slimes wrote the obit for these 1500 farm families!
Then FreeRepublic got involved and these wonderful farmers and their families started getting some backbone, some victories, some symbolic water and a lot of positive publicity. The left wing media's strangle hold on spiking the news out of Klamath Falls was broken!
Then you posted, "Any congressman who votes for it should be voted out of office. We are here to fight, not to yield. Any politician, Republican or Democrat, who fails to do this is our enemy."
All I can say is to echo this and say AMEN!, "Any congressman who votes for it should be voted out of office. We are here to fight, not to yield. Any politician, Republican or Democrat, who fails to do this is our enemy."
christie posted, "This is a great article! I am printing out copies and will hand them out or send web address to everyone I know. Maybe more journalist will begin to pick up on this. Would be a great story for John Stossel.
Excellent, it will go out very soon to my email list!
We would love John Stossel to get a hold of this and shake the envirals like a rat terrier does with rats!
TJ posted, "I understand, appreciate, and mostly agree with your point of view. Thanks for the comments. Temperance is very useful.
We are all after the same goal. Throughout the learning process of my life (up to today), the hardest thing for me to learn was to use temperance and never expect people to be where I was on any issue.(particuliarly one where I have spent a lot of time studying)
Also, I believe that if conservatives we can "mostly agree" in critical areas like this, we learn from each other! Only the left wing extremists want 100% agreement from their sheeple. I learn from you and others, and hopefully others can learn a little from me!
This battle is so important, and we must win it for the farm families in the Klamath Basin and for us!
Have a great weekend. I'm going to get to be Grampa for the rest of the weekend. My two year old grand daughter will not allow me to get on the computer if she is around! She inherited that trait from her grandmother! She and her 5 month old little big brother will be arriving at Grandma's and Grampa's very soon!
Enjoy.
Thank you for this great WSJ post and for your work on the Klamath issues generally.
I also have travelled and camped throughout eastern Oregon, and can truthfully report that it is as unpopulated as back-country British Columbia.
At least when you see someone, you're happy to do so!
"Rural Cleansing"...my God, I wish that was just rhetoric!
Fight Rural Cleansing!"
Oregon's present population and consumption are environmentally unsustainable. It is imperative that we determine the state's optimal population, end population and consumption growth, and begin the walk toward ecological carrying capacity. By supporting policies that promote true economic, personal, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual growth, we can move Oregon toward sustainability.
Yeah, kill off the farmers and water supply, and the population will really be sustainable.
Why doesn't Kerr to go India and hassle them. Now, there is a population problem.
Hmmm, I think we need some bumper stickers that say "Stop Rural Cleansing". I'm so glad the WSJ picked this story up, it's time we started getting some attention. These guys want to stop overpopulation, then why don't we start with the cities?
ping!
ping!
Gdpleaser-Thanks For the ping!
GrampaDave-thank you for posting this. Rural Cleansing is exactly what this is. And it's going on all over America. People have to understand that this is not just a problem for Klamath. It's a problem for all of us. BTTT
How are they going to keep people in the cities that don't want to stay there? Robin Hood and his merry men dwelling secretly in Sherwood Forest come to mind. These guys don't realize that by sweeping all legitimate habitation from the land, they are creating uncontrollable guerilla havens.
Here's a link to the UN's documents:
United Nations Sustainable Development -- Agenda 21
Here's another one Adgenda 21
City folks are are afraid of the wilderness, and would never live there. They are simply trying to protect us from ourselves, which is something we can't seem to grasp. (thank God) I think rather than purge the city's, we should begin and end with the eviron's. Problem solved. (Where is my president, when I need him?)
How are they going to keep people in the cities that don't want to stay there?...
They will do it the old fashioned way-pass a law!
I agree with you, FWIW
The WSJ article quotes the Sierra Club as source for the 500 u/acre. Found the following that refers to the concept of urban density. It is a short article. You should read the whole article to get the full "flavor". Looks like they want us to all live in cities in apartment buildings.
The second study is an extensive analysis of two models of suburban growth. In their 1974 study for the Council of Environmental Quality (CEQ) and Housing and Urban Development (HUD), "The Costs of Sprawl," the Real Estate Research Corporation compared typical suburban single-family housing with suburban "high rise apartments."
However, at 33 units/acre, these "high rise apartments" are actually less dense than many older, comfortable urban neighborhoods. Densities of 50 to 100 units/acre are common with 3 to 6 story apartments, and to 400 with occasional highrises and no front-yard setbacks. Examples are the popular Nob Hill and Russian Hill areas of San Francisco traversed by cable cars climbing halfway to the stars. Since the study is of suburban "high rise apartments" with little transit, much land set is aside for parking lots, driveways and lawns.
Even these modest "high rise" densities save considerable materials and resources when compared with single family dwellings. The single family houses consume 4 times as much land for streets and roads and 10 times as much for the houses themselves. The single family houses use nearly 6 times as much metal and concrete, the mining of which threatens many of our natural areas. They consume over twice as much gas and nearly twice as much electricity, and produce over twice as much air pollution with their autos.
The link didn't want to open tonite. I'll try it again tomorrow. Any city that has more than 5000 people living in apartments is way too crowded for me.
Thank you for your link. I love to be able to provide doubters with links to actual UN documents which your link links to.
This is the most impressive set of links on this subject that I have ever seen posted. Good work TJ, good work!
The mayor brought over a copy of the WSJ the day it came out...he thought it was interesting. I think what he found interesting was the fact that I had written "Stop Rural Cleansing" in white shoe polish on the tailgate of my pickup two days before. Yep, wrote all over the truck like a hippy with a sack full of socialist bumper stickers...then drove to the protest at the head gates. My friend said,"Usually we see people like you working for the other side."
In all honesty Dave, I really didn't about think where this would lead when I got involved in it....mainly I was scared where it would lead if we lost. Klamath is our Lexington, we can't afford to retreat on this -- we must stand our ground and stay the course....
forester, "In all honesty Dave, I really didn't about think where this would lead when I got involved in it....mainly I was scared where it would lead if we lost. Klamath is our Lexington, we can't afford to retreat on this -- we must stand our ground and stay the course....!"
In the history of American, often important key movements that helped our country to reach independence were started by brave men and women, who had enough!
I don't see this as Lexington. There were a couple of things before Lexington that started things going against King George.
A group of brave men in NY wrote and signed the "Articles of Discontent". It was a simple document that put together their discontent with the way they were being treated by Britain/King George. It poed George so bad he sent Redcoat Marines to "settle things" with every signer. One of my ancestors had to flee NY and head south with 5 young daughters or face terrible consequences! Because of the impact the Articles of Discontent had on King George, Parliament and Britain in general and the hardships they and their families suffered after penning and signing the Articles of Discontent, the signers were considered to be our first soldiers in the Revolutionary War!
The second thing I believe the Klamath Water Pumping parties parallel is the famous Boston Tea Party! The tea party was symbolic but had impact throughout the 13 colonies and the wilderness areas! It stills has relevance to Americans who have a sense of history and patriotism!
Hopefully the Lexington incident will never have to be replicated by our brothers and sisters at Klamath Falls!
The brave farmers/ranchers in the Klamath Basin, AuntB, you, Jeff, Phil and other brave front line Freepers have let the envirals know that there is a whole of discontent with the enviral nazis Rural Cleansing going on there and other places. Then, you have an incredible and growing support of the FreeRepublic people on this issue. We will not let it die down or go whimpering into the night like a battered and beat cur dog.
The Rest of America needs to become aware of the Rural Cleansing being done and planned by the envirals!
Very informative links on the thread.
Keep telling everyone you know about the petition.
Have y'all seen this?
Great links!
LURKERS
DID YOU KNOW AMERICA'S FARMERS
WERE DENIED THEIR IRRIGATION WATER
IN FAVOR OF A BOTTOM SUCKING SUCKER FISH.
DON'T LET THOSE SUCKERS TAKE OUR LAND. "
For those of YOU WHO HAVE NOT YET SIGNED THE PETITION
Please click on the link above in blue and do so now.
This is something that will eventually effect us all.
Ask all your family and friends if you can add their names to the list also.
WE NEED 100,000 SIGNATURES BY AUGUST 21
Read how they are able to classify them as endangered
Endangered Salmon THE BIG LIE
Andy Kerr, lobbying Washington D.C. as the Larch Company LLC for the ONRC
is seeking a $840 million buyout of the farmers.
THE SUCKERS SUCKING THE LIFE BLOOD OUT OF THE FARMERS
Not sure if you caught this,
but thought you would be interested.
We are getting some National notice.
Andy Kerr Wages War on Growth
By Michelle Cole From the Portland Oregonian, June 4, 2000
Andy Kerr makes an effort to maintain his tarnished reputation.
In a three-page curriculum vitae listing his life's accomplishments, Kerr reports being hanged in effigy -- "at least twice" -- and receiving more death threats than he can count. Kerr also notes that he's a college dropout, schmoozer and agitator. He doesn't mention an arrest outside a U.S. senator's office. But he'll be happy to talk about it, if asked.
"I'm not conflict-averse," Kerr said. "Nobody got anywhere by being nice."
Kerr's career as a leading environmental activist is steeped in some of the most dramatic conflict the Northwest has known. In the 1980s and 1990s he was a much-decorated officer in the conservation movement's war with the timber industry -- with the outcome that logging in the past decade declined by more than 80 percent on Oregon and Washington public lands. Time magazine called Kerr a "terrorist in a white collar." The Christian Science Monitor described him as "one of the toughest environmental professionals in the Pacific Northwest."
Kerr had stepped out of the spotlight in the past several years, first moving to Joseph, near the Wallowa Mountains, then resigning a top post at the Oregon Natural Resources Council because of burnout. Now 45, with a gray beard and paunchy middle, he has moved to a new home and the agreeable climate of Ashland, where he could easily kick back and enjoy life. But that's not to be. Instead, Kerr is back, preparing to wage a bigger, potentially more divisive battle: shutting down Oregon's population growth.
The man who practices his witty and cutting sound bites in the shower is back on the Rotary club speaking circuit, asking audiences, "How many of you want Oregon to be like California?" "I've never had a hand go up," he said. It's a vintage Kerr tactic designed to get people to think about the rest of what he's about to say, no matter how radical. Kerr is sharpening his soldiering skills by re-reading as he does every spring "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, a Chinese general who lived 500 years before Christ and taught that the supreme art of war is to "subdue the enemy without fighting." Kerr keeps a list of his enemies handy on his tangerine laptop.
"Andy Kerr can be a jerk. But he's not such a bad guy," said Jon Chandler, a lobbyist for the Oregon Building Industry Association, who is more flattered than concerned that his name appears on Kerr's enemies list. As for Kerr's new organization, Alternatives to Growth Oregon, Chandler predicts it "won't get too much traction." Jack Ward Thomas, former chief of the U.S. Forest Service, can't help but laugh when he hears of such a dismissal. "That's what the timber industry thought, too," Thomas said. Reputation for trouble For a while, it looked as though Kerr wouldn't be invited to the Northwest Forest Conference convened by President Clinton in Portland on April 2, 1993. The White House didn't want any trouble, and Kerr had a reputation for stirring it up. Endangered species protection for the spotted owl probably wouldn't have made the cover of Time three years before if it had not been for Kerr. He conspired with his colleagues at the Oregon Natural Resources Council to raise the spotted owl issue for the first time in a timber sale appeal. That was in 1981. By 1988, Kerr's fingerprints were on more than 220 similar administrative appeals filed in one month.
"I told them they couldn't have a Northwest Forest Conference without Andy Kerr," said Jeff Rogers, a law school friend of the president and first lady who went on to become Portland's city attorney. Rogers knew of Kerr's reputation, but he had not met the man. "I said: 'I'll go talk to him and make sure he won't be disruptive,'" Rogers said. "I knew he wouldn't be." Seated next to the secretary of agriculture and across the table from the president of the United States, Kerr said he couldn't help but feel like the baseball player who finally makes the major leagues. Yet few people in his hometown were impressed that Kerr would shake hands with a president. He was the not-so-favorite son of Creswell, a blue-collar mill town in the Willamette Valley.
Sandra Wilson, a town historian and Creswell resident for more than half a century, chooses her words carefully in talking about Kerr. "We were a timber town," she said. "Timber people and Andy's people clashed."
Creswell in 1973 was not unlike the 1950s community depicted in the movie "American Graffiti." Most of the young people had gone to school together from kindergarten through high school. Kerr was an intelligent boy, a student government officer and a bit of a prankster. Saturday night usually found Creswell teens cruising nearby Eugene. Kerr's best friend in school, Don Ehrich, remembers they would also swing by Interstate 5 rest stops and shout at Californians to go home. Even then, Kerr liked to shock people. As a practical joke, Ehrich nominated Kerr as a candidate for "Creswell Carnival Queen." Kerr decided he'd play the joke out. "I wasn't going to wear the dress, but I did want to wear the tiara," he said with a grin.
He won the contest. And despite his objections, the students and administrators insisted upon calling Kerr the "Carnival King." Instead of the glass-and-glue dime store tiara, Kerr complained that they made him wear a more "manly" crown cut of cardboard and covered with aluminum foil. His most difficult battles came with his father, a home builder who didn't appreciate Kerr's opinions on forest conservation any more than he appreciated the beard his son wore home from Oregon State University. He made him shave it off each summer. Kerr would grow it back each fall. During the summer between his junior and senior years, Kerr worked for the family business for six days. "The first five of them my father was on vacation," he said.
On the sixth, Kerr decided he'd had enough. "I didn't want to shave my beard off that summer." He hasn't shaved since. Juggling full schedule On a Friday night in April, Kerr wagged his index finger in the face of an aide working for U.S. Sen. Ron Wyden. The Oregon Democrat had written legislation designed to stabilize the amount of money that timber communities receive from logging on nearby federal forest lands. Kerr was outraged that in April 2000, the government would tie dollars that communities need for schools and roads to what he considers the destruction of a natural resource. That message delivered, Kerr moved from the ballroom to the foyer of the Hilton Hotel in downtown Portland to talk growth with a candidate for the Metro regional council. Then, his burgundy tie askew, Kerr huddled with conservationists headed to Washington, D.C., seeking protection for the sage grouse.
All of this while others attending the Oregon League of Conservation Voters annual banquet listened to the keynote speaker. Kerr isn't one to waste time on 20-minute speeches, or to wait until after dinner to eat his dessert, or to squander an opportunity to consult, advise or cajole. "A happy workaholic," Kerr works 60 to 80 hours a week. He usually packs his schedule so tight that he's forced to change into his suit in parking lots. He's put 125,000 miles on his Toyota pickup in five years and credits cellular phones for cutting down on speeding tickets because now he can do business on the highway. Kerr keeps a digital voice recorder tucked in the pocket of his cargo pants. He yanks it out to dictate memos to himself, such as where he'll find the Toyota in the parking garage or to send some of what he calls his "ego-clippings" to a reporter.
In addition to launching Alternatives to Growth Oregon, Kerr runs the Larch Co., an environmental consulting firm named after a tree that thrives on scorched earth. He's also writing two books. The first, titled "Beyond Wood," argues for forest preservation and against wood products. The second, commissioned by the Oregon Natural Resources Council, is titled "Oregon Wild" and features the state's roadless forest lands. This summer, Kerr's "Oregon Desert Guide: 70 hikes" will be published by Mountaineers Press. He describes it as a "a little natural history, political future and hiking guide -- all with an attitude." "From the beginning I saw a lot of the same things in Andy that I see in him now," said James Monteith, the Oregon Natural Resources Council's executive director for 18 years. "Andy always knew what he wanted to do and has had a take-charge approach."
Monteith hired Kerr as a field representative in 1976. At the time, the organization was known as the Oregon Wilderness Coalition. Kerr describes the operation as "little more than four zealots who needed stationery." They also had one suit between them: a dark three-piece pinstripe that Kerr's mother bought. "We used to have pictures of each of us testifying (before Congress) in it," Kerr said. In those days, Monteith said, the conservation community was pretty timid. His group's goal was to create enough controversy in the press, in the courts and in the political arena to focus the public's attention on the disappearance of old-growth forests. Monteith used to call Kerr his "main deck gun." "You point him and you pull the trigger," he said. "The media and the political underpinnings of what we had to do were handled by Andy as part of our overall strategy." The group appealed so many timber sales in the late 1970s, Monteith said, that Congress called a hearing. "We sent Kerr back," he said. "They grilled him, and Andy held our ground. I think we impressed upon them that we were not going away. We were committed. We were using science and we were using economics."
They were also using the press. Brandishing sound bites Kerr perfected the art of the snappy sound bite. He could be shocking. He could be irritating. But he could always be assured attention. Kerr is the one who came up with the term "Rider from Hell," to describe a 1989 rider, or amendment, drafted by Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, R-Ore., to prohibit conservationists from seeking court injunctions against logging for a year. He insulted timber workers and their families when he said that another Hatfield rider would kill spotted owls "as sure as a drunken logger with a shotgun." And he angered a host of people when he said, "Asking the Oregon congressional delegation in 1990 to deal rationally with the end of ancient forest cutting is like asking the Mississippi delegation in 1960 to deal rationally with the end of segregation."
Reporters who interview Kerr all ask the same question: When? Tell us what prompted you to dedicate your life's work to the environment? "There just isn't an epiphany story," Kerr said. "Sometimes I've tried to make one up." Early focus on growth As a fifth-generation Oregonian, Kerr has always been concerned about the effects of population growth.
He joined Zero Population Growth when he was 17 and in high school.
He and his wife of 14 years, Nancy Peterson, have two dogs, a cat and no children, by choice. Over the years, Kerr has peppered his speeches and writing with warnings about overpopulation. Then in the fall of 1997, Kerr sponsored a conference in Portland titled "Alternatives to Growth." He hoped for 200; 600 came. The interest expressed at the conference, coupled with a University of Oregon survey indicating that 65 percent of Oregonians think the state's population is about the right size now and 29 percent think it's already too large, convinced Kerr the timing was perfect to launch a new campaign.
He had stayed in touch with Rogers, the Portland city attorney and friend of Bill Clinton, since the 1993 Northwest Forest Conference. Kerr also recruited like-minded environmentalists and others to help him form Alternatives to Growth Oregon last year. The group inhabits a small office in downtown Portland and has a Web site (www.agoregon.org). Yet, Kerr can't say exactly what its agenda will be. "In the next couple of years our goal is to both insist on debate and give permission to the body politic to talk about the end of growth." Will Alternatives to Growth Oregon promote a statewide no-growth initiative? Or will it seek local no-growth ordinances community by community? "I don't know. Give me a few years," Kerr said. "What we're trying to do is, in a sense, change the course of Western civilization as we know it."
Long list of actions He isn't kidding. Kerr has compiled a list of 25 actions to end growth that include swapping a "consumption tax" for the income tax to encourage savings and discourage waste. Kerr also proposes ending subsidies designed to lure new businesses and making birth control available to all sexually active people, regardless of age. Among the most radical of his ideas is a tax incentive designed to reward small families and limit foreign and domestic immigration. He concedes that immigration is a federal matter. But he suggests linking the number of people permitted to immigrate to the United States to the number of Americans who emigrate to other countries.
"About 100,000 people leave the U.S. each year," he said. "That's enough to take care of political refugees, especially if we also change U.S. government foreign and corporate policies that create refugees. It's also enough for immediate family reunifications. If we Americans want more immigrants, then we Americans should breed less so we have room for them." Isn't that incendiary? "Yes." Racist? "Unless you favor open borders, you are racist by definition. It's just a matter of degree," he said. Kerr already appears to have gone too far for some of his colleagues in the conservation movement.
Robert Liberty, executive director of 1000 Friends of Oregon, has worked with Kerr on timber and other issues. He admires him. But "it would be a mistake for people to confuse the work that we do and the work that he does," he said. His group is battling sprawl, which could happen with or without population growth, Liberty said. "I guess I'm distancing myself and trying to emphasize these are two different subjects." Meanwhile, Kerr hears encouragement from surprising corners. Ray Wilkeson, legislative director for the Oregon Forest Industries Council, suffered Kerr-induced heartburn for years. He labels Kerr's views on population "radical," and he warns builders and others who have a stake in Oregon's growth to take Kerr seriously.
"He's very smart. He's tenacious. He's fearless. He's a worthy adversary," Wilkeson said. Still, Wilkeson confesses, he's "emotionally sympathetic" with Kerr's campaign to end growth. "Whether his ideas are practical or not, I don't know," he said. "One thing he and I have in common, is we're about the same age. ... We can both remember Oregon in the '50s, when we were kids. It was a wonderful place. It really was." Sandra Wilson, a Creswell historian, says Kerr might find his hometown more supportive, too. Creswell has about doubled in size since Kerr graduated from high school and went off to fight the timber wars. More than 3,000 people live in the town today, and Creswell is no longer economically dependent upon logging. "Now it's a bedroom community to Eugene," said Wilson. "I think a lot of people moving in don't have that concept of a small town. They work and shop in the greater metropolitan area.
They're not involved in the community the way it used to be. ... To us who have lived here a long time, it isn't the same, and it will never be the same."
Thanks for the scary link to this truly scary Kerr!
The more I read about Andy Kerr, the scarier he becomes!
The problem is so many Oregonians look on him as a hero, a teacher and a great leader!
I just came back from a visit to the world fameoustent in Klamath. A bunch of great Americans! They were passing out copies of this article Saturday. Good news indeed.
They really liked the Tyranny Response Team shirts I donated to the cause.
I just came back from a visit to the world fameoustent in Klamath. A bunch of great Americans! They were passing out copies of this article Saturday. Good news indeed.
They really liked the Tyranny Response Team shirts I donated to the cause.
FYI
M posted, "I just came back from a visit to the world fameous tent in Klamath. A bunch of great Americans! They were passing out copies of this article Saturday. Good news indeed.
This WSJ editorial must make them feel that finally someone with some editorial power is listening to what has been happening to them. It legitimizes their comments and ours about the enviral nazis and their rural cleaning objectives and strategy!
They really liked the Tyranny Response Team shirts I donated to the cause.
Great, you need to fill us in what you saw and heard up there! The Tyranny Response Team shirts are great!
The Snail Darter was the first of these critters trotted out to make farmers/ranchers and private property owners miserable and to start the rural cleansing process!
sick
Check out this response to the Klamath issue by a nut-case at SF Gate: Water Welfare Cutback? (look about half-way down the editorial)
Thanks, now I have to wash down and sterilize my computer after having that nut case on.
That is the left wingers standard line to put down the Klamath Farmers. It does not apply to these farmers!
How are they going to keep people in the cities that don't want to stay there? Robin Hood and his merry men dwelling secretly in Sherwood Forest come to mind. These guys don't realize that by sweeping all legitimate habitation from the land, they are creating uncontrollable guerilla havens.
Can you say "free-fire zones"?
If there are no legitimate inhabitants of the land, then in a period of "national emergency" anyone found in the area is the enemy and can be killed on the spot (or after interrogation). In the absence of legitimate human scent, the work of tracker dogs is made easier, anti-personnel mines may be sown freely without creating too many problems with the populace, etc. Also, guerillas need resupply by sympathetic civilians in the area of operations.
With reduced habitation, and limited inter-city corridors, it would be much easier to surveil all traffic for "subversives"
Even these modest "high rise" densities save considerable materials and resources when compared with single family dwellings. The single family houses consume 4 times as much land for streets and roads and 10 times as much for the houses themselves. The single family houses use nearly 6 times as much metal and concrete, the mining of which threatens many of our natural areas.
One thing, though. Most people dont WANT to live in apartments, if they have a choice.
I've lived in apartments for most of my first 30 years. Now I have a house with some land, I have my own garden and tomato patch out back, and a swing set for the kids to play on. I like it the way I have it, and I consider anybody who tries to force me back into an apartment to be my enemy.
The problem with the environmentalists and socialists is that they have this grand plan of how the world is supposed to be, and they're quite willing to use governmental force to eliminate any who stand in the way of their plans
Everything the government touches ends up corrupted to the max, so if there is a master plan and there seems to be, taking it's corruption to the maxium effect, the master plan will consolidate people into urban areas where they can be totally watched and controlled. Food will be bought overseas or from corporate entities and distributed as the government, under the direction of the U.N., deems necessary.
Food will be the punishment or reward for compliance to the hive twenty years or so down the road. The U.N. has already stated that "US citizens have given up the right to control their natural resources given their urban sprawl, and their SUV's, someone had to take over".
Our wilderness area's will be only the playground for the wealthy, to be exploited only by the very wealthy. One article here on FR put forward that Klamath Falls is to be bought out by a corporation to grow hemp. After the farmers are cleared off irrigation will return to the area.
Stupid enviornmental activist sheep have no idea that they are being used, now in some areas these self same kooks can't ride their mountain bikes, they were shocked and hurt that their hard won efforts on behalf of the Grand Canyon had been snapped up by a wealthy man that had urged them on and now plans to build a resort for the wealthy to enjoy on the land they fought to make human free.
With Federal judges "sympathetic" to the environmental groups this is why the Democrats will never give an ok to anyone Bush picks to fill those 100 federal court seats.
EXCELLENT NEWS! Thanks for the post.
Thanks so much for the ping.
Here's another good link for you.
WAKE UP AMERIKA! GET UP, GET MAD, GET BACK ON TRACK!
MAP, posted, "Stupid enviornmental activist sheep have no idea that they are being used, now in some areas these self same kooks can't ride their mountain bikes,they were shocked and hurt that their hard won efforts on behalf of the Grand Canyon had been snapped up by a wealthy man that had urged them on and now plans to build a resort for the wealthy to enjoy on the land they fought to make human free.
Our younger son moved to Portland a little over 10 years ago and fell in love with the area. In about 3-4 years he had become a green enviral. He sold his pickup and just used his mountain bike, and we could not discuss politics.
Then in 2000, he and his fellow mountain bikers found themselves being restricted from areas where they had bike for years. The Club Sierra bought out a local park here in Napa that was independently owned. The park owners with the Mountain Bikers had started a great race with world class bikers and bikers like my son who just want to ride in the race every March.
The first thing the Club Sierrians did was to cancel this race. Then they banned all mountain bikes in that park! My son learned how to mountain bike and love mountain biking at that park. I bought him a yearly membership each year for his birthday. He was outraged, and I had predicted this move before it happened.
This woke up my green son. Now he calls the envirals, nazis like his old dad! He campaigned against Goron and Nader. He wasn't ready to vote for GW yet, he wrote in the SF baseball manager for president! He is now on the side of the Klamath Farmers after his last visit home!
He works in the bike industry, and he is against all of the envirals in Oregon at his work place and out in his private life!
It would still become another Vietnam or Afghanistan, and it's not like sheer, cussed human ingenuity can't overcome problems like linkages between guerillas and civilian aid - get out dem tunnel-diggin' shovels. Robert Heinlein's "Free Men" was pretty much a blueprint of how insurgents might operate in the situation described.
Experience is the best teacher. I hope he shares his anti-green views with his friends. It is unbelievable what has happened to this nation in ten short years, five even.
MAP posted re my son, 'Experience is the best teacher. I hope he shares his anti-green views with his friends. It is unbelievable what has happened to this nation in ten short years, five even.'
He is spreading the word. I believe that reformed envirals are worse than smokers and drinkers who stop those bad habits! Some of his comments make me look tame! His older brother who became a conservative the day he got his first paycheck after college, just sets back and grins when younger bro starts to bash the enviral nazis! He and I do a lot of winking at each other when the younger one takes off after the enviral nazis!
Re what has happened to this nation. A lot had started that we were not aware of. However, the major accerlation of the descent in to enviral hell for America, got jet boosters from Clintoon and his band of criminals who owed their elections to the envirals! It will take us a decade to find out all of the terrible things that they did to this nation and us in the name of clean air, water and mother earth!
This is a great thread.
The Wildlands Project exposed (in their own words): www.wildlandsproject.org
You are visitor number 40223/4 since October, 1997
Only 40,000+? Nice of them to put up a counter though. No wonder no one knows about it.
Keep in mind that the counter should have a pro and con aspect in the tally. Seems like nobody looks at this "informative" site.
Thak you for posting this . I was wondering, is there a list of all the enviromental groups so one could write to the whole list one by one and let them know what we think about what they are doing ?
Go to this site on the enviralist Oregon Natural Resources Council, (List of envirals in charge of Rural Cleansing of America)
Thanks for the info reference. I can't discover anything to suggest a benefit to the populations affected, as oppopsed to effecting an ultimate power-trip.
Talk about the ultimate in Nazism, WOW!
This is great. Thank you so much. I have just finished writing a letter about the Firefighters and will send it now. The one I wrote about Klamath Falls was to the Senators and Congressmen but I think I should add these horrible groups to the list. Thanks again so much.
Snow Bunny posted, "This is great. Thank you so much. I have just finished writing a letter about the Firefighters and will send it now. The one I wrote about Klamath Falls was to the Senators and Congressmen but I think I should add these horrible groups to the list. Thanks again so much."
You just might add, that you and the rest of America is waking up to how dangerous they are to Americans other than their elite!
Congratulations on your effort!
Congratulations on your efforts, too!
Thanks! Just doing what other good Freepers Do here!
This is why Free Republic is the worst nightmare and daytime terror of the socialist, facists, communists, and enviralists.
They need total control of all news to even appear to be successful. Free Republic eliminates that total control.
We all learn from each other, and just look at what has happened with the knowledge level of this issue since the Bucket Brigade in May!
Thanks for all of your replies and posts during this massive learning session on the Rural Cleansing of America in the Klamath Basin and the rest of America!
"The strategy of these environmental groups is nearly always the same: to sue or lobby the government into declaring rural areas off-limits to people who live and work there."
The US government has run out of gold and, unable to even meet the interest payments, is now collateralizing the National Debt using the land you live on. Environmentalism is just the excuse which the government hopes will conceal the true reason for the land grab, while the sheer multitude of different laws and programs conceals the scale of the land grab.
But for land to make a worthwhile collateral for the holders of the external debts, that land and its resources must be seen as untouched. That's why the Grand Staircase Esclanate monument blocked off the coal reserves, because it's the coal that is the collateral on the government's loans.
More at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE2/doodoo.html
I wrote a book on Yucca Mountain and Nuclear energy policy in '94, got blackballed but now it's time to put it out. Found tons on the communists behind Nader and the enviro movement. Y'all will love it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
[
Top
|
Latest Posts
|
Latest Articles
|
Self Search
|
Add Bookmark
|
Post
|
Abuse
|
Help!
]
FreeRepublic , LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 Forum Version 2.0a Copyright © 1999 Free Republic, LLC |
