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Throughout history, religious wars have been fought in the name of different gods. The premise of the Oslo Accords was that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was not an irreconcilable religious war, but one over borders. However, the Palestinian religious leaders, all appointees of the PA political leadership, are publicly preaching that the Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam's eternal religious war against the Jews. Jews are portrayed as the eternal enemies of Allah, and the killing of Jews as Allah's will. On the national level, Allah prohibits acceptance of Israel's existence and will destroy it.
This ideology is preached in sermons and religious lessons that are broadcast every Friday on official Palestinian TV and radio, and from the religious lessons appearing in PA newspapers and children's textbooks.
The Palestinians have redefined the conflict from one over borders, in which compromise may be a solution, into a religious war in which compromise is heretical. The implications for future peace are ominous.
This report is not brought as a critique of Islam's religious traditions, nor does it claim to represent authentic Islam. Rather it demonstrates the way Palestinian Authority religious leaders are selecting, interpreting and teaching Islam. Although Islam has positive references and traditions regarding Jews, the PA religious leaders have chosen to cite only negative references in their religious teaching, using the traditional sources to justify and even to demand uncompromising hatred of Jews and Israel.
The religious ideology of the Palestinian Authority religious leaders can be summarized by eight essential principles:
Regarding the Jews:
Regarding Israel:
- All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (which includes all of Israel) is a religious Waqf -- an Islamic religious trust. Any Moslem who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.
- All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature, and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.
- Allah will replace Moslems who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.
- The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.
The Palestinians repeatedly use Islamic sources to defend this religious hatred, even demanding the killing of Jews as a current obligation and the will of Allah. At least four times in recent months, Palestinian religious leaders have taught publicly that the following Hadith (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of Islam today, expressing Allah's will that obedient Moslems kill Jews. According to Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi, quoted in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (May 18, 2001), and Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, delivering the main Friday sermon on Palestinian TV (April 13, 2001), the Hadith itself states:
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
On Palestinian TV (March 30, 2001) the preacher Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi attacked Arab-Moslem world leaders because they are avoiding attacking Israel with missiles and tanks, and threatened them that Allah is liable to "replace them with other men... that fight for Allah... to liberate the lands from the defilement of the Jews."
These broadcasts by officially appointed religious leaders, presenting the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as an eternal religious conflict, have been preached long before the current violence began. This preaching it is not a reaction to the present violence, and possibly the opposite is true. The PA's religious worldview, that sees agreements with Israel as inherently temporary and war against the Jews as an expression of Allah's will, has in all likelihood fueled the hatred that has lead to Palestinian terror and violence.
This report presents representative selections from sermons broadcast during recent years:
* * *
Eternal Islamic War against the Jews is led by Palestinians; the Jews are enemies of Allah.
"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Mohammed said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them...' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..." (Palestinian TV, July 28, 2000)
"Blessed is he who fights jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: 'Allahu Akbar, blessed be Allah.' Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." (Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001)
"The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Moslem victory is coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith. And the day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers [the Moslems] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the Jews] and with their annihilation." (official P.A. newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, May 18, 2001)
"The Jews are the Jews. There never was among them a supporter of peace. They are all liars... the true criminals, the Jewish terrorists, that slaughtered our children, that turned our wives into widows and our children into orphans, and desecrated our holy places. They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah... it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them anyplace that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them -- kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them... Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere..." (Palestinian TV, October 13, 2000)
"My dear brothers, so continues the struggle between the Moslems and the Jews from the past, both near and far, in the present and in the future. And in this matter the word of Allah will be fulfilled: 'There will not be found [anyone] more hostile to the believers than the Jews and the idolaters." (Palestinian TV, April 13, 2001, quoting the Koran - Sura 5,84)
A repeated goal of PA religious teaching is to defame Jews and Jewish tradition:
"...The Jews are used to deceit... They fake the facts and changed the laws of Allah... The Torah was brought down with contained guidance toward the path of righteousness and light, just as every book which Allah brought down... [The Jews] switched the law of Allah and by this rebelled on His ruling and religion and way, and therefore they merit to be heretics and to be banished from the Allah's mercy... They faked the words of Allah and changed their religion and laws and they are the wicked. And whomever does not rule according to what Allah brought down, whomever rebelled against this... is in a rebellion against Allah, and is a descendant of Abelis [ghost], the descendant of the Satans, and worthy of receiving the punishment of the sinners..." (Palestinian TV, February 16, 1999)
"...Their Bible [of the Jews] today has no light and no teachings. Their Bible today is just a bunch of notes that were written down by people who lie about God, his prophets and his Bible... Those who do these kinds of things are the descendants of Abelis, meaning the descendants of the satans... They fabricated a Jewish history book full of promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that He will give them the land of Palestine..." (Palestinian TV, November 3, 1998)
* * *
All of the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea is Holy Islamic Wakf (Moslem religious trust).
Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, official preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, referred to the Israeli cities of Haifa, Lod, Jerusalem, and Nazareth, on Palestinian Radio (April 30, 1999):
"The Islamic Land of Palestine is one and cannot be divided. There is no difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between Jerusalem and Nazareth. Dividing Palestine into cantons and giving recognition to the occupation is prohibited by Sharia (Islamic religious law), since Palestinian is Wakf (Islamic Trust) for all Moslems in the East and in the West. No one has the right to give it up or to forsake it. The liberation of Palestine is a mandatory obligation for all Moslems and not only for our Palestinian nation."
Demonstrating the consistent ideology, a nearly identical speech was broadcast one year later (Palestinian TV, September 8, 2000)
"Allah made it clear to us through the laws of the Sharia (Islamic religious law), and we say: The Islamic Land of Palestine is one and cannot be divided. There is no difference between Haifa and Nablus, Lod and Ramallah, Jerusalem and Nazareth or Gaza and Ashkelon. Palestine is Wakf land that belongs to Moslems throughout the world and no one has the right to give it up or to forsake it. Whoever does this is a traitor to the trust and is nothing but a loathsome criminal whose end shall be in hell."
Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, the Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, referred to the Israeli cities of Jaffa and Acre on Palestinian TV (January 11, 2001):
"We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre... We are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic."
As broadcast on Palestinian TV (October 13, 2000), again referring to Israeli cities and regions:
"Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time..."
"It is forbidden for anyone, Arab, Palestinian or Moslem to forgo one grain of soil of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem and Al Aksa... Whoever forgoes even one grain of soil his sin is upon him, and all the sins of the Palestinians, the Arabs and the Moslems, forever and ever..." (Palestinian TV, September 8, 2000)
"...The Jews gathered from all ends of the earth in our beloved Palestine, from Rosh HaNikra in the north to Eilat in the south... from sea to river, it was all a land of Moslems... Palestine's borders, the promised Palestine, is from the sea to the river..." (Palestinian TV, August 18, 2000)
* * *
The Oslo Agreements are only temporary; future generations will complete the war.
In an interview on Palestinian TV (September 1, 2000) an Israeli Arab Knesset Member, Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe, defined the agreements with Israel as "Hudna" -- a temporary cease fire. In response to a viewer who called in to the studio and commented that, "Our problem with Israel is not a border problem, but an existential one," Knesset Member Dahamshe responded: "We exaggerate when we say 'peace'... What we are speaking about is 'Hudna.'" This idea of accepting "Hudna," temporary agreements until some future liquidation of Israel, has also been expressed by Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, leader of the Hamas terrorist organization, as quoted in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper, Al Hayat-Al Jadida (July 24, 2000):
"We are speaking of 'Hudna', [a cease fire] for a while, but not of the end of the conflict. In exchange for this
The newest Palestinian school textbooks, published in September 2000, teach this prohibition of leaving Islamic land in Israel's hands. In sixth grade "Islamic Education," the following is taught:
"Patriotism in Islam: In Islam, it is not improper for a Moslem to love his homeland. To the contrary, Islam encourages this, and established its defense as an obligatory commandment for every Moslem if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. I, a Palestinian Moslem, love my country Palestine..." (Part A, p. 68)
The same theme is echoed by preachers at the mosques, as broadcast on Palestinian TV (July 28, 2000):
"All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized."
And as proclaimed by Dr. Mohammed Ibrahim Maadi, in the Friday sermon on Palestinian TV, (June 8, 2001):
"Who is responsible for the loss of Palestine... and [for] deceitfully labeling it Israel?... The Prophet [Mohammed] soothes us with many Hadiths that Palestine shall return to its former days... We must prepare a foothold, for the coming army of Allah, by divine predetermination. May it be Allah's will [that] this oppressing state shall pass, Israel shall pass. This oppressing state, America, shall pass. The oppressing state Britain, shall pass, [those] that brought this catastrophe [nakba] of this nation..."
And then in the Friday sermon on Palestinian TV (May 4, 2001):
"...In our holy books [it is written] that when a state for the Jews is established in Palestine, it will not last more than 67 years. In other words -- the year 2022. And I beg Allah to bring an end to the country of the oppressor in America, and the country of the oppressor Israel in Palestine, by that date... Therefore, it is our hope that this oppressive country [Israel] will be terminated, as in the words of Allah..."
* * *
The destruction of Israel is a global Islamic responsibility.
"Arab and Moslem rulers! The weaponry that will not be used against the enemies of Allah will rust and you will use them against one another, as happens periodically. Aim your arrows once and make war, as they war against you. Why this fear of the State [of Israel] that is surrounded by Arabs and Moslems? Why this fear? Because you do not fear Allah -- whoever fears Allah, all else will fear him." (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)
"There are Hadiths (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) regarding our struggle against the Jews. And it is given: 'The day of resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!' This Hadith clarifies to us the characteristics of the campaign between us and the Jews. The tree and the rock do not say 'Oh, Palestinian,' 'Oh Arab,' or 'Oh resident of the Middle East.' Rather they say: 'Oh, Moslem, Servant of Allah.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)
"The Arab rulers and the Moslems, and our people everywhere. If we don't support Allah, He will replace us with other men... The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)
"Oh, our Arab brethren... Oh, our Moslem brethren... Don't leave the Palestinians alone in war against the Jews... Even if it has been decreed upon us to be the vanguard... Jerusalem, Palestine and Al Aksa, the land that Allah blessed and its surrounding areas will remain at the center of the struggle between truth and falsehood, between the Jews and the non-Jews on this sacred land, regardless of how many agreements are signed, regardless of how many treaties and covenants are ratified. For the truth is in the Koran, as verified by the words of the prophet Mohammed, that the decisive battle will be in Jerusalem and its environs: 'The resurrection of the dead will not occur until you make war on the Jews...'" (Palestinian TV, August 11, 2000)
"All the members of this nation must take part in this struggle against the enemies of Allah, so that through us the saying of Allah will be fulfilled: 'You will not find people more hostile than are the Jews.'" (Palestinian TV, April 13, 2001)
"Palestine... causes the Jews to lose sleep, causes the enemies of Allah throughout the land to lose sleep... It is a bleeding wound, and it will continue to bleed forever and ever... Jerusalem is a symbol... to the Moslems and to their war of Jihad forever and ever." (Palestinian TV, August 11, 2000)
"The victory is coming, the victory is coming, the victory is coming! Allah, show us your marvels against the Jews! Show them a black day, like the day of A'ad and Tha'mud (tribes that were defeated and destroyed). Because they boasted to us of their strength! Show us the prince against them, show them a black day! Allah, transform them into the Moslems' spoils of war! Allah, transform them into our spoils of war!" (Palestinian TV, April 13, 2001)
bttt
bttt
Gee thanks for the bump ..that ok I am sort of new so I'll just charge in and listen
Golly no flames on the horizon at all Yet
Give it time. LOL
Yeah, now these peaceful people are being allowed to build mosque's right here in the most Christian nation on earth. No wonder we get deep fried.
Opps maybe I should go Prepair
I guess no one is going to mention the Israeli's NAZIesque treatment of Arabs. Talk about anti-semetic. The Israelis are about as anit-semite as you can get!
I think the best thing the US can do is follow Washington and Jefferson's advise; stay the frell out of other countries' internal affairs and all entangling alliances. It's none of our, the US's, business what happens in Israel, the former Yugoslavia, Chechnea or most anywhere else, for that matter.
For those of you who feel strongly about this subject my advise for you is; go volunteer for the Israeli Army, and don't let the door hit you in the A$$ on the way out.
Palestinian demonstrators watch a model of the Third Jewish Temple, adorned with a U.S. flag, burn in the center of the West Bank town of Ramallah Sunday, July 29, 2001. Demonstrators protested the act of an ultranationalist Jewish group, the Temple Mount Faithful, who sought Sunday to enter the mosque compound that is Jerusalem's most contested religious site, in Jerusalem's Old City, to plant a cornerstone for a future Jewish temple. (AP Photo/Nasser Nasser)
Yeah, now these peaceful people are being allowed to build mosque's right here in the most Christian nation on earth.
Are you a Republican or a political conservative? You are? Can you say Freedom of Religion? Or is that freedom reserved only for religions you approve of?
I guess I was under the impression that only Liberals tossed aside Constitutional protections when it suited them. My mistake.
Right on. Those Americans, Jew and Gentile, who support Israel should be given a one way ticket to go there and fight and die for their beliefs.
Right on. Those Americans, Jew and Gentile, who support Israel should be given a one way ticket to go there and fight and die for their beliefs.
I know it's a right protected by the Constitution, we may all need protection from the wrath however.
You know the funny thing is "I would go" and before you flame me let me also state that I am a U.S. Air Force vet. I was recently over in Israel and seriously considered staying, but my family pitched a fit. The Israelis are the most PATROTIC people I have ever met, puts the US to shame. I still may return, b/c it is an honorable cause. Perhaps the IDF could find a use for me, even though I am over 40 and female.
Great information. Too bad the press won't publish these quotes. Islam is a religion of hatred. They won't even stop the slavery in Sudan by their Islamic brothers.
Oh, have you been catching on the news how the "Palestinian leaders" have been calling the idea that there ever was a Jewish temple on the temple mount in the first place a "fiction?"
Shows how damned ignorant the Islamic masses must be. Hell, Flavius Josephus documented the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. under Titus. (For those of you who don't know your history: Josephus wrote that over 600 years BEFORE Islam even came into existence.)
Right! We should've let all of Europe fall to Hitler! We should've let all of Asia and South America fall to the Communists! We should've let Saddam take over all the oil in the Gulf! America should become isolated from all the world and have a piss-poor economy and a piss-poor standard of living! All you racists in the Amen-Corner get the hell out my country! You have no right to lobby congress no matter what the Consititution says. Your opinions mean squat because you have 'dual-loyalties'. America, love it or leave it, and don't let the door hit you in ass on the way out!
Name one American serviceman who died defending Israel.
I can name hundreds who died defending Arabs from other Arabs. The fact is the Israelis have never asked for Americans to fight on their behalf and probably never will. It is the Arabs who consistently call for Americans to come and save their asses when they go too far, like we did in Lebanon and Kuwait -- at a very real cost to American men, women and families. Now even Arafat is asking for help, again, from American troops. As if we didn't learn our lesson when he started a war in Lebanon. He can start all kinds of trouble, but he always asks for us to save him when the fit hits the shan.
>NAZIesque treatment of Arabs
Lol. Guess you haven't heard of the arabs tradition with nazi entanglements? Hitler and the mufti? Who cooked up the "final solution" _together_?
But on second thought, from the general wild-eyed look of your post, you might not see that as anything negative.
>Can you say Freedom of Religion
Islam is about as much a religion as the klan is a religion, or as aryan nations is a religion. That it has many adherents is neither here nor there. The US ought to take a lesson from the way some countries have looked at the scientologists, for example - and banned them. But of course they will not, and will reap the consequences instead.
All you racists in the Amen-Corner get the hell out my country!
Racists? What the devil are you talking about? The only "racists" in this article are the Arabs and the Israelis.
As to Hitler, 1. The warning was about "entangling alliances", not protecting vital interests. 2. The US has a special relationship with Great Britain. 3. Also, believe it or not, the US did not defeat Germany in WWII, The Soviet Union defeated Germany, or perhaps better said, Hitler defeated Germany by attacking The Soviet Union.
Can you explain what BAD thing would have happened had the US let Saddam keep Kuwait? Or invade Saudi Arabia? No great loss to anyone. If those countries can't protect themselves why should we? As far as oil goes, it might have been better for us anyway, we would have been given a good incentive to drill ANWR, build more Nuke plants and develop fuel cells.
And as far as south-east Asia is concerned, just where did we stop Communism? South Korea, that's it. And to what benefit?
btw, pork breath I do not belong to the "amen corner".
>Can you explain what BAD thing would have happened had the US let Saddam keep Kuwait? Or invade Saudi Arabia?
Saddam would by now have had a hefty nuclear capability, and been rabid enuff to try a first strike. Quite possibly with you at ground zero. That might or might not qualify as a bad thing.
God says whoever supports Israel will be blessed....Whoever does not..well...it ain't good. Your view is post-modern, and that is what is wrong with the world. Israel is one little democratc nation in a sea of communism...are we not to support our Brothers in freedom? Or do we let them all fall until we are the only ones left. We cannot stand by ourselves. We must support any democratic nation...if we do not...our silence will be our demise
"However, the Palestinian religious leaders, all appointees of the PA political leadership, are publicly preaching that the Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam's eternal religious war against the Jews. Jews are portrayed as the eternal enemies of Allah, and the killing of Jews as Allah's will. On the national level, Allah prohibits acceptance of Israel's existence and will destroy it."
I don't believe the Palestinian religous leaders are misleading anyone. I do in fact believe what they say, Jews are Islams eternal enemy, and the killing of Jews is Allah's will.
"Are you a Republican or a political conservative? You are? Can you say Freedom of Religion? Or is that freedom reserved only for religions you approve of?"
If that religion actively seeks the destruction of Jews and Christians, then no, I don't approve of that religion.
"Right on. Those Americans, Jew and Gentile, who support Israel should be given a one way ticket to go there and fight and die for their beliefs."
I went and served and then I came back. Got a two way ticket. If you think you are safe here in the United States you are sadly mistaken. Christian, your enemies are everywhere.
Lol. Guess you haven't heard of the arabs tradition with nazi entanglements? Hitler and the mufti? Who cooked up the "final solution" _together_?
Now, that's funny!
Hitler, in the midst of WWII, carefully consulting with the mufti to decide how the Germans will deal with the Jews in the areas they control.
Sure, the Nazis protected him, but only as a way to cause trouble for the British who dominated the Middle East. The idea that he was important or influential with the Germans is ludicrous.
the way things are coming down it sure does seem biblical with the hand of god directing events, it is beyond us.
bump
Ovadiah 1:18
And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame,
and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle them, and devour them;
and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the YHWH hath spoken.
Thanks for the heads up!
Sure bttt
bump for Israel
Well stated Friend.
You are an honorable man Michael.
could find a use for me
If you read the Israeli press you would know that one thing over which they are tearing their hair out is their incompetence in public relations.
They can't understand how the world doesn't see the obvious as to who is responsible for all the pain and violance: the Arabs and their lies.
Trust me that what you are doing now is immeasurably more important-telling the truth to your fellow American Christians-then anything you could do for the IDF.
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Wow, thanks!!! That's the verse I was looking for!
Yep! So if your anti-semitic, anti-Judaic, or anti-Israel . . .
>The idea that he was important or influential with the Germans is ludicrous.
Many things were important and influential with hitler, some of which would seem incredibly ludicrous. He wasn't exactly what you'd call normal, you know
What is _known_ is that this mufti had meetings with hitler, and that they discussed these things - immediately before the "solution" was implemented. It's also _known_ that hitler didn't just cultivate the mufti to cause trouble for the british. The mufti provided hitler with some manpower as well.
Remember this quote: "Hitler of blessed memory..."? There are no coincidences here.
The Mufti was an influential guest of Hitler during the war. He helped recruit Bosnian Muslims into the Axis forces. The Mufti was also instrumental in preventing a group of Jewish children from being released to Palestine.
Thank you Seeker, and (from what I've seen so far) right back at you.
"They can't understand how the world doesn't see the obvious as to who is responsible for all the pain and violance: the Arabs and their lies."
Israel needs to stop caring about how they are treated in the press and what the world thinks of them.
Moslems should have as much freedom to practice their religion in America as Christians are allowed to practice their religion in Moslem countries like Sudan. The land of freedom is a foreign country to Moslems.
We may not need to go to Israel for that due to the fact that there are so many irrational Palestinian sympathizers here on domestic soil who are so willing to follow the deception of the nephew of the Arab Fuhrer.
No argument here
I was prouder of Israel when it did what it had to without giving a sh*t.
If they had always acted like they do today, hostages would still be in Entebee, and IRAQ would be in the Gulf armed with nuclear weapons.
The Mufti was an influential guest of Hitler during the war. He helped recruit Bosnian Muslims into the Axis forces. The Mufti was also instrumental in preventing a group of Jewish children from being released to Palestine.
I didn't say he wasn't a guest of Hitler. I just think it is ludicrous to portray him as a major influence on Hitler's decision to implement the Final Solution.
I can see it now. Hitler's hanging out on Berchtesgaden(sp?, sometime in 1943.
H: So, Mufti, what do you think I should do with all these Jews? It looks like we might be driven back in the East, and a lot of them might escape our control.
M: I think you should set up camps, then gas and incinerate them.
H: Well, I'm not crazy about the idea, but if you really think I should...
BTW, isn't there more than a whiff of hypocrisy detectable when we denounce a group, such as the Bosnian Moslems, for allying themselves with Hitler? We allied ourselves with Stalin, who is generally recognized as being reponsible for the deaths of somewhere between 2 and 5 times as many people as Hitler. We did so, appropriately in my opinion, because we recognized Hitler as being the greater danger to America, and we needed Stalin's help to destroy him.
Yet we use the old guilt-by-association theory to discredit any group which was allied with Hitler. Maybe they saw their alternatives as even worse, and were forced to choose between what they saw as the lesser of two evils. (For some reason, the Finns get a pass on this one. Nobody else, though.)
Moslems should have as much freedom to practice their religion in America as Christians are allowed to practice their religion in Moslem countries like Sudan. The land of freedom is a foreign country to Moslems.
Using this theory, Catholics in America would not have had freedom of religion till the 50s, if not later. There were quite a number of Catholic countries (Spain, Dominican Republic, etc.) that restricted Protestant groups until then.
Our Constitution recognizes the right of all groups to freedom of religion.
cool...we're on the same wavelength.
"Using this theory, Catholics in America would not have had freedom of religion till the 50s, if not later."
You cannot compare Catholics to Muslims. Catholics weren't killing Protestants, and they don't believe that non-Catholics shood be killed.
Catholics weren't killing Protestants, and they don't believe that non-Catholics shood be killed.
Historically speaking, a lot of this has indeed gone, on both sides. As late as 1762 a French Protestant was tortured to death for the crime of murdering his son to prevent his conversion to Catholicism. The son actually probably committed suicide. Persecution of Protestants also continued in Russia, Poland and other countries.
The Founders knew of these events. They established freedom of religion for all people, anyway. This was without reference to whether their co-religionists in other countries reciprocated in providing freedom of religion for Protestants.
Saddam would by now have had a hefty nuclear capability, and been rabid enuff to try a first strike. Quite possibly with you at ground zero. That might or might not qualify as a bad thing.
Well I do live within sight of Cheyenne Mountian. But seriously, what BAD thing would have happened?
But on second thought, from the general wild-eyed look of your post, you might not see that as anything negative
General? Wild-eyed? You are going to have to be more specific than that, old boy.
Israel neither deserves nor is entitled to the US's protection. They are not a State nor do they protect or harbor a vital interest.
Granted they served a purpose during our non-conflict with the Soviet Union, now they are but a nuisance.
These boys sure know the American media and how to play to it. Sound real peaceful too, right?
Great collection of quotes.
Nam Vet
God says whoever supports Israel will be blessed....
God has nothing to do with US foreign policy.
Whoever does not..well...it ain't good. Your view is post-modern, and that is what is wrong with the world.
post-modern? What the frell is "post-modern"?
Israel is one little democratc nation in a sea of communism...
"Sea of Communism"? China, N. Korea and Cuba. A veritable ocean.
are we not to support our Brothers in freedom?
Democracy? Freedom? Majority rules? Sounds like some sorta unholy tyranny to me! The frelling bastards torture their prisoners. They force the palestinans to live in ghettos. Like Warsaw!
Or do we let them all fall until we are the only ones left.
There never was "another". We are the only Republic on the planet. Though not for long I'm afraid.
We cannot stand by ourselves. We must support any democratic nation
Democracy sux.
...if we do not...our silence will be our demise
You plainly don't understand.
Moslems should have as much freedom to practice their religion in America as Christians are allowed to practice their religion in Moslem countries like Sudan. The land of freedom is a foreign country to Moslems.
Sounds to me like you are a REAL American. Like Benedict Arnold.
Chief, you don't have a clue.
If that religion actively seeks the destruction of Jews and Christians, then no, I don't approve of that religion.
Then it is time you moved to China. I'd say Russia but they have more freedom now than you would deem, safe.
Freedom is a two way street. Always has been. Jefferson knew that, even Lincoln knew that. You, on the other hand would seem to prefer some sort of theocracy.
Count me out, thank you very much.
>They are not a State nor do they protect or harbor a vital interest
Israel is not a state? Are you sure you're not dreaming arafat's wet dreams? If you start seeing images of that wife of his, you should perhaps contact a shaman or an exorcist or something.
Anyway, Israel do protect vital US interests in the area, as you probably well know. Another thing altogether is that they shouldn't - the US may be an unreliable ally, and it may behoove anyone to pick alliances with states a little less prone to slip the knife in your back, so to speak ;).
Israel is not a state?
State son, State. As in United States.
Anyway, Israel do protect vital US interests in the area
Name one. Just one.
The only "vital interest" we have in the Middle East is oil. Israel has no oil.
>The only "vital interest" we have in the Middle East is oil. Israel has no oil.
Hehe. You really have a simplistic view of this stuff, huh? Now, Israel have traditionally fulfilled a number of US-friendly functions, which even taken one at a time have significant value. One, it is a reliable bridgehead in a region where the US may at any time find itself unwanted, under attack, and generally referred to as "the great Satan". Two, it has on some occasions whacked heads in the ME that it was in the US interest to have whacked. Three, it serves as a damper on the islamic need to attack and kill anything western, most notably anything American.
But you know, I kinda doubt we're working from the same kind of rationality - after all, you saw no drawbacks with letting Saddam overrun the region, which places you somewhere beyond what I'd call reason or even sentience.
after all, you saw no drawbacks with letting Saddam overrun the region, which places you somewhere beyond what I'd call reason or even sentience.
Your adherence to "conventional wisdom" and inability to question is a sign of intelligence? HAH! You dispute my assertion but offer no facts.
Would it be bad if the US was forced to wean itself off middle-eastern oil? Nope.
Would it be bad for the people who live there? If they can't create their own freedom I rather doubt they would deserve it. Saddam would be no worse than the theocratic/monarchy (Saudi Arabia) or oligarchy/monarchy (Kuwait) that they live under now.
I invite you to take off your blinders.
As for the Facists who rule Israel and your assertion that they provide the US with "assistance". One: They were somewhat useful tools during the cold war. The cold war is over. Two: They cost more than they are worth. Three: I find it intolerable that the worlds only Republic sponsors a Nation that habitually tortures its prisoners and forces groups of its citizens to live in what amounts to Ghettos.
People here at Free Republic are often incredulous when the European press and gov'ts slam Israel for actions that we boycott Cuba for. This is truly an example of intellectual dishonesty.
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