Bitterroot National Forest in Montana on August 6, 2000. This fire burned out of control because of Clinton/Gore's
Photograph by John McColgan
roadless policy. Firefighters
couldn't get in to fight it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
William La Jeunesse asks; "What really happened at the 30 mile fire?
Well, investigators from two federal agencies are trying to find out
One of the questions they're asking is this. Did a policy to protect fish endanger firemen?
District Ranger John Newcom says, "We have Chinook Salmon, we have Steelhead, we have Bull trout, um all three of those species are in the Chewuch and they all are a consideration as we fight fire.
William La Jeuness: "A consideration but not an obstacle insists Ranger John Newcomb. But two veteran fighfighters with intimate knowledge of this fire and the river that ran through it tell a different story.
Veteran fireman in disguise says; "The crew had ordered water. Needed a helicopter with water and they were denied the use of water from the Chewuch River. They were told that this was a protected water source and that they needed to go through the channels to use this water source.
William La Jeunesse says; "Forest policy prohibits firefighting helicopters from drawing water from protected streams out fear they will scoop up endangered fish. Exemptions require review by government biologists.
Veteran firefighter says; "Lots of people lost friends. People, Oh! See now I am going to cry. So many lost their children, for a fish!
William La Jeunesse says; "Commander Newcomb claims the Endangered Species Act neither delayed nor denied water drops that might have saved lives.
William La Jeuness; "So permission for a helicopter was never denied because of either some forest management plan or pack fish?"
Ranger Newcomb: NO!
William La Jeuness; "If anyone was to make a suggestion that fish and or wildlife were put before people."
Ranger Newcomb; "Absolutely incorrect!"
William La Jeunesse; "Twenty-four hours later the forest service changes it's story releasing a time line in facts that contradict what we were first told and what emerges is a story of young inexperienced firefighters who are calling for and expecting support from water dropping helicopters. While dispatchers wait for enviromental clearance a relatively small fire grows out of control.
William La Jeunesse asks; "Were efforts to save a fish, responsible, for the potential, potentially responsible for the death of these people?"
Environmental officer Jan Flatten; "I don't know and I think thats what the investigation team is going to answer."
In Winthrop, Washington, William La Jeunesse reporting for Fox News
Of the four firefighters who died in this fire three were just nineteen years old and barely out of high school. Two were girls, and I believe the fourth was a young man in his late twentys or early thirties with small children.
TOLL THE BELL! The Endangered Species Act Must Go.
This is HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE
Read how they are able to classify Salmon as endangered
Endangered Salmon THE BIG LIE
Tags, closed?
BTTT!
TOLL THE BELL! The Endangered Species Act Must Go.
I agree! This is insane that water could not be taken from that stream to save the lives of humans. I hope that the proponents of the Endangered Species Act get sued. Or something!
bump to the top
Read above.
We must all TOLL THE BELL!
LURKERS
DID YOU KNOW AMERICA'S FARMERS
WERE DENIED THEIR IRRIGATION WATER
IN FAVOR OF A BOTTOM SUCKING SUCKER FISH.
DON'T LET THOSE SUCKERS TAKE OUR LAND. "
For those of YOU WHO HAVE NOT YET SIGNED THE PETITION
Please click on the link above in blue and do so now.
This is something that will eventually effect us all.
Ask all your family and friends if you can add their names to the list also.
WE NEED 100,000 SIGNATURES BY AUGUST 21
ONE MILLION BY THE END OF THE YEAR
Man, it was hard enough hearing about those young girls dying, but the fact it could be a senseless death is almost too much to bear.
BUMP!
Jul 31, 2001
Colorado Congressman: Endangered Species Act May Have
Contributed to Deaths
By Katherine Pfleger
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - A Republican congressman said Tuesday that delays related to Endangered Species Act protections may have played a role in
the deaths of four firefighters in Washington state.
Citing confidential sources, Rep. Scott McInnis, R-Colo., chairman of the House Resources' forests subcommittee, said at a hearing that water to
douse the deadly flames was delayed for hours while officials wrestled with endangered species protections.
Following the delay, the July 10 fire exploded in the northern Cascade range, growing from 25 acres to 2,500 acres in less than three hours. It
trapped several firefighters, killing Tom Craven, 30, Devin Weaver, 21, Jessica Johnson, 19, and Karen FitzPatrick, 18.
Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth said he heard "a whisper" Monday related to the congressman's account, but could not confirm it until the
agency completes its investigation.
Ken Weaver of Yakima, Devin's father, was angry about the allegation.
"It's stupid enough that it rings true. That's the extreme that some of these zealots go to," he said. "It begs the question: If they were capable of
bringing water into this fire, why weren't they capable of airlifting people out of there?"
After the hearing, Bosworth said he will continue to work to put the safety of the public and firefighters first. But, as was the case in the fatal fire,
he said, "Sometimes it is not enough."
McInnis offered this timetable from his sources outlining what happened:
The congressman said a water drop was repeatedly requested, starting at 5:30 a.m. on the day of the fire.
The water did not arrive until 3 p.m., after officials had determined that a helicopter could dip into a river - which contained three endangered
species - for water to fight the blaze.
About an hour later, the fire exploded. And at 5:25 p.m., McInnis said, the four were dead.
"I am very, very concerned," he said. "We need to find out if there was a delay putting resources on this fire because of the Endangered Species
Act."
Doug Crandall, staff director for the subcommittee's Republican majority, said the timeline was confirmed with local Forest Service officials, but
without additional information, it is still unclear what role the water drop's delay played in the deaths.
Crandall said investigators will also look at how endangered species protections should have been weighed against firefighting efforts - often an
ambiguous issue.
"That is always a question," he said. "Unless there is a specific policy or previous court decision, that is one of the things that the analysis will have
to show. ... What flexibility is there?"
More broadly, the hearing looked at how agencies within the Interior and Agriculture departments are coordinating efforts under the National Fire
Plan. Passed by Congress last year, the plan gave the departments an additional $1.8 billion over their 2000 budget to fight wildfires.
Read above.
TOLL THE BELL! TOLL THE BELL!
This is pure insanity.
How utterly disgusting! The lives of a fish were of higher value than those of four humans? What has this Country come to?
Is there a news link to this (it looks like you transcribed this from the broadcast)? I'd like to send this to my Congressman as soon as possible, and would like hard copy of it to send.
The wheel has turned. It is time, it is time for the Endangered Species Act to go.
Wonderful Democrats, those fish had as much right to live as the firefighters. Gotta love them leftist eco-nuts.
When the environmentalist officer says "I don't know", that means "Yes!" Fox News said they would follow up on this story tomorrow.
I think our government has gone insane!
THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT IS KILLING PEOPLE
The Wall Street Journal tells how peoples land and life blood are being taken from them.
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL TELLS HOW THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS ARE USING
THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT TO WIPE OUT RURAL AMERICA!
RURAL CLEANSING
Is there a news link to this (it looks like you transcribed this from the broadcast)
Yes I taped it then transcribed it.
I just noticed post #9 copied an AP story so go to post #9
Insanity is right.
ping
Thanks. I didn't notice that.
And, thanks for taking all the hard work to transcribe this for us. It is most appreciated by all of us.
I guess this is what happens when we devalue the lives of the unborn... and then the elderly... and then the sick and crippled... we go down that slipperly slope and end up here where fish are treated better than people.
I am a former volunteer firefighter and this just breaks my heart and makes me ABSOLUTELY LIVID!
The firefighters called for water at 5:30 AM and didn't get it until 3PM! There is absolutely, positively NO EXCUSE for that!
It's one thing to drive 1400 farmers to the brink of bankruptcy for a freaking fish, but to not allow water from a river/creek/stream to put out a fire because of the #*)$&%! fish and as a result four firefighters lose their lives! That is just a bit more than I can deal with!
I hope the families of these firefighters sue the living hell out of the government and those responsible on a personal and professional basis. Maybe if those harmed by these outrageous endangered species laws started suing these creeps that make such idiotic decisions they would be put out of business!
Prayers for the families of these four young people. And may the environazis burn in hell for eternity!
I was just about to post this, posted on klamathbasincrisis.org. I am physically ill over this. It has to stop!
by Larry
Endangered Fish Policy May Have Cost Firefighters' Lives
Tue Jul 31 19:35:16 2001 Endangered Fish Policy May Have Cost Firefighters' Lives
AP
July 12, 2001: The shelters of four firefighters who survived the Thirty Mile Fire in Okanogan National Forest. Tuesday, July 31, 2001
Firefighters struggling to contain a blaze in central Washington State that ultimately killed four of their own were hampered in their efforts by a federal policy to protect endangered fish, Fox News has learned.
Firefighters were unable to douse the deadly fire in Okanogan National Forest in Winthrop, Wash., in July because of delays in granting permission for fire-fighting helicopters to use water from nearby streams and rivers protected by the Endangered Species Act, according to sources close to the fire.
Firefighters Tom L. Craven, 30, Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18, Devin A Weaver, 21, and Jessica L. Johnson, 19, burned to death while cowering under protective tents near the Chewuch River, home to protected species salmon and trout. Seventeen other firefighters survived the ordeal.
Forest Service policy in the Northwest requires that special permission be obtained before fire helicopters can dip into certain restricted rivers, lakes and streams. The fear is that the dippers could accidentally scoop up protected species of fish.
A 17-member team from the Forest Service and other federal agencies is now investigating whether the four firefighters died as a result of the policy.
Rep. Scott McInnis, R-Colo., chairman of the House Subcommittee on Forests & Forest Health, said the committee is also looking into allegations that environmental policy and bureaucracy were factors in the deaths.
Testifying before the committee Tuesday, USFS Fire Chief Dale Bosworth said that under standard procedure, firefighters would have used the Chewuch water to fight the fire and addressed any environmental violations or restrictions after the fire was extinguished. He said he was investigating why dispatch waited for approval before sending the helicopters.
"We get the water where we can get it and ask questions later," Bosworth said.
Forest Service District Commander John Newcom told Fox News last week that the Chewuch River’s population of salmon, steelhead trout and bull trout are all considered when fighting fires, but insisted helicopter permission was never delayed or denied because of the policy.
But the USFS reversed that position Tuesday with the release of a timeline of events that depicts the harrowing plight of a band of very young, inexperienced firefighters waiting desperately for helicopter relief that never came.
According to the timeline, the first team of firefighters, an elite crew called "Hot Shots," had contained what came to be known as the "30-mile fire" by the very early morning and requested a helicopter water drop at 5:30 a.m. However, they were told one would not be available until 10 a.m.
At 9 a.m., the Hot Shots were replaced with a young "mop-up" crew expecting helicopter relief to arrive within the hour. When the mop-up crew inquired about the missing helicopter just after noon, the dispatch office told the crew field boss that helicopters could not be used in the area because the Chewuch River contained endangered fish.
Final permission to use Chewuch water wasn’t granted until 2 p.m.
Jan Flatten, the environmental officer for the Okanogan and Wenatchee Natural forests, confirmed that environmental concerns caused crucial delays in dispatching the helicopter.
"At 12:08, the dispatch office ordered the helicopter," Flatten told Fox News. "However, because there are endangered species in the Chewuch River, they wanted to get permission from the district in order to dip into the river."
However, the dispatch office could not reach anyone at the district with the authority to approve the helicopter drop. Flatten said those authorities — Newcom, Fire Manager Peter Sodoquist and the Methow Valley biologist — were actually meeting during that time to approve an exemption to the policy.
"That time lag of about two hours was when they were trying to locate someone with the authority to tell them they could go ahead and take water out of the Chewuch River," Flatten said.
The USFS did not explain why the intra-agency team required to approve an exemption did not convene until 12 p.m., two hours after firefighters had been told the helicopter would be available.
Two former USFS firefighters familiar with the Thirty Mile Fire said getting permission to dip into the Chewuch caused the delays that led to the death of their colleagues.
"(The crew) were told that (the Chewuch River) was a protected water source and they needed to go through channels to use this water source," one of the former firefighters told Fox News.
The first load of helicopter water was dumped on the fire around 3 p.m., but the fire was by then out of control. An hour later, air tankers had to be turned back and the ground crew fled on foot to the river where they deployed their survival tents. The crew was completely surrounded by the flames with no avenue for escape.
Fox News' William LaJeunnesse and Robin Wallace contributed to this report.
Bitterroot National Forest in Montana on August 6, 2000. This fire burned out of control because of Clinton/Gore's
Photograph by John McColgan
roadless policy. Firefighters
couldn't get in to fight it.
The lives of a fish were of higher value than those of four humans? What has this Country come to?
Simple answer? Insanity.
More complex answer? Schizophrenia induced by a bunch of screaming idiots who are certain, absolutely certain, that this globe would be better off without humans.
But more important, the Congers of the Unitity States actually subscribed to an unsupportable and, on the face of it, stupid thesis: namely, that the loss of ANY species meant the ruination of all species.
Will Rogers used to say that his jokes didn't hurt anyone, but that when Congress makes a joke, it's a law.
Will was right. The endangered species act is so idiotic that one would normally laugh uproarously at the joke. Unfortunately, the Congers made this joke into a law.
Read it at foxnews.com Here is the address' http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31019,00.html
As a fellow Washingtonian, I cry with you over this shocking revelation today. I fully expect it to be ALL over the Seattle media tomorrow. If not - I'll be asking questions over at the Times/P-I.
There is so much clean up to do in this federal gov't after the last 8 years of punks, cheats, idiots, liars, sluts, and incompetents.
My father fought forest fires back in the seventies. As the story first broke, I remembered him talking about the dangerous and capricious nature of these fires - especially the "chimney effect". My father was a brave man, but a chill would cross his face when he spoke of the "red devil" and how it could trap a man.
To hear how these brave men and women died - protecting the expensive homes of spoiled elitests who voted for the policies that chose fish over firefighters - makes me ill. The blood of these firefighters is on their hands...
As a mother of a young man about to go into the fire academy I am angry to the core.
"Crandall said investigators will also look at how endangered species protections should have been weighed against firefighting efforts - often an ambiguous issue.
"'That is always a question,' he said. 'Unless there is a specific policy or previous court decision, that is one of the things that the analysis will have to show. ... What flexibility is there?"
This is APPALLING ! "weighed"? "ambiguous"? "question?" "flexibility"? "court decision"? My God, the lives and health of HUMAN BEINGS were at stake. This is madness!
<>This fire burned out of control because of Clinton/Gore's roadless policy. Firefighters couldn't get in to fight it.
So what?. Nature recovers. What is your point?.
---max
Words cannot express the abysmal level to which this country has sunk, in light of the above. Flag is at half mast...
Y'all know damn well that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will happen to the bureaucrats responsible for these deaths. At worst, they would just be laterally moved to another position within their department, with equivalent or better pay, fringe benefits, pension/retirement, sick days and vacation pay. That is the reality of "civil service." Ain't nothin' you or I can do about it. AND, George W. Bush will do nothing to change it. You can bet on that!
I wonder if there will be or could be any court action --class action suit-- to protect firefighters in these circumstances?
You're totally right, marsh, these people who think animals are so important truly need our prayers, too.
Wasn't one of the signs of the coming of end times the elevation of fish and fowl over humans?
Another talking point for use at the WH "Klamath Farmers" FReep this weekend??
How many WH tourists do you suppose have heard the extent to which the ESA is affecting innocent human lives?
Oh, marsh, how does one make a decision to fight these fires for a government that has no value in thier lives, much less in saving the forests. I wouldn't trade places with you for anything at this moment. You know our Kathy V. with FOF was a firefighter? She and I were at the Headgates discussing how we'd been too busy to even check into this story. Consider yourself hugged.
B.
You used to wonder why I harbored such animosity for people like ferret. Are you now starting to understand why I consider people who pursue the Earth First! agenda a threat to life?
"So what?. Nature recovers. What is your point?."
What's your point, max61???
Washington_minteman, wasn't that fire pretty close to you?
Be sure to see posts#9 and #21 for the rest of the story by two more sources.
Let's hope people start 'getting it' pretty soon.
Thanks,
L
"I am angry to the core."
So do something about it.
L
Heard this on Carlson today. Outrageous! This is total insanity. Putting fish before humans.
Jolly Rodgers & fellow Oregonians, when I was researching Andy the Curr, I found lots of conventions with Kerr, Earthfirst!, and TONS of U of O professors, and Oregon State employees putting on workshops together. These idiots are everywhere! And they're teaching our kids! I don't even know who's in charge of Education in Oregon now, how pathetic is that? I HATE local politics, but we HAVE to do something about Oregon....LCDC would be a good start....
Yes, to all you foreigners, Oregon has a "club", private, non- elected called the LCDC that sets land use laws for us.....How weirds is THAT!
What a mess. What a sad sick mess.
bump!
This fire burned out of control because of Clinton/Gore's roadless policy. Firefighters couldn't get in to fight it.
So what?. Nature recovers. What is your point?.
---max
People died in that fire, too. Or didn't you know? (or care?)
I don't even know who's in charge of Education in Oregon now, how pathetic is that?
A couple of elections ago, one of the candidates running under the Socialist Party listed themselves as the president of the Oregon Education Association. I don't know how one becomes the president of the Oregon teacher's union, but I'm guessing the other teachers elect them. What do you suppose that says about the state of education in Oregon public schools?
"The firefighters called for water at 5:30 AM and didn't get it until 3PM! There is absolutely, positively NO EXCUSE for that!
Yes, there is. Allowing the Gummint to "manage" anything has proven over and over to be a mistake.
This is simply a good example of how freaking incompetent and controlled by the Watermelon People the Gummint IS!
It is Bush's Gummint and he ain't doin' Jack about any of this! He is more concerned about letting Mexican trucks and people in here illegally than he is about is own kind.
IT sucks and HE sucks!
I agree with you. I posted this on another thread on this subject about an hour ago:
By savedbygrace
I realize the policy is the proximate cause for these deaths, but it seems to me that somebody in the middle wasn't willing to lose his/her job to save these lives. I would've given the choppers the go-ahead, even if it meant I'd be fired later. Now people are dead. Nice trade-off.
My reply
IMHO....This situation is an excellent example of the buracracy that is sufficating our nation, made possible by the citizen's indifference. Unfortunately, the people in those positions that would have taken the initiative have already been fired. It's the people that allow rules like this to be written that have the blood of these fire-fighters on their hands (for "rule-makers" read "legislators"). What would become of us all without "immortal" young people to obey these heartless, arrogant !@#$%^&'s and put their lives at the whim of this indifference?
Roadstar, isn't Dale Bosworth a holdover from Clinton/Gore? I keep being told by people that Bush can't fire any of them??? Can that be true?? Clinton fired nearly every US Attorney, and everybody else.....Billy Dale, etc. What's the point of changing Prez's if we can't get rid of the henchmen?? HORSEFEATHERS! As my daddy would have said.
bump
Lurkers!! WAKE UP! YOU are as indespensible as these 4 fine young people. Better find out what's happing in this country....check the "LET THE WATER FLOW" petition: www.petitiononline.com/klamath/
If this government can decide that deeded water rights mean NOTHING, just how much do you suppose the deed to your house in town is worth..
Are you now starting to understand why I consider people who pursue the Earth First! agenda a threat to life?
Even though I am Shhhhhhhh! 60 somethingI am still learning.
It is amazing how much you can learn when you have the internet and FOX NEWS.
Even though I am Shhhhhhhh! 60 somethingI am still learning. It is amazing how much you can learn when you have the internet and FOX NEWS.
Of course it also comes with a curse. Now everybody will think you are a radical nut like you used to think I was. :-)
I had heard of a possible lawsuit, last week. I had posted that here last week as well. But, then could find nothing more about it. Makes me just SICK!!!!!!!!!!!
Another talking point for use at the WH "Klamath Farmers" FReep this weekend??
How many WH tourists do you suppose have heard the extent to
which the ESA is affecting innocent human lives?
Probably none. We need you DC Freepers to
TOLL THE BELL! TOLL THE BELL!
The people that dies were friends of my granddaughter, Becky Smith.
She was a firefighter for two seasons based at the Cle Ulum Ranger Distict.
And, she is from Yakima.
She was working at Glacier Natl Park when she got the news, and, left for home immediately, home being Yakima, Washington.
Here is a Letter to the Editor my daughter LeeAnne wrote;
July 25, 2001
Published in the Herald-Republic on Wednesday, July 25, 2001
Their Bravery
To the editor --
My daughter has been a wildland firefighter in the previous two summer seasons. In her experience she was in some scary situations, she used her training that was given, and ran for the safety zones. She knew the risk on every call, and if she ever felt unsafe she could pull back to the safety zone. She was never "forced" to stay on the line and was never "forced" to go on the call.
That fateful day was tragic, and I knew it could have been my child. I have deep sorrow for the families of these brave souls. The four did what was in the past a safe procedure, and they had seasoned veterans in the group, let us not forget that. Tom Craven a 10-year veteran, and Jason Emhoff, three years of Forest Service experience; that group, I am thinking, may have had the most experience. This leads me to my conclusion, inexperience is not the issue.
Will procedures and safety zones be changed because of this tragedy? Most likely, yes. Hindsight is always 20/20.
One has to believe the very best was done with the knowledge that was available at that time. And yes, things do happen that are unexplainable, and are hard to handle.
Let us never forget the positive and the goodness of these four lives. The job they did was one they chose, no one else chose it for them.
Tom, Devin, Jessica, Karen I will never forget your bravery.
LEE ANNE SMITH
Yakima
So this!
About a million acres of forest resources burned needlessly. It endangered animals and burned so long and so hot that it finally endangered human habitation. Babbitt's (Clinton-Gore)policy of no clean up and no roads because someone might cut a tree or make use of the fallen dead ones, or mess up the great wilderness caused so much more damage than any of the proposed remedies. There is no common sense, anymore.
If the people who care about this (a majority if everyone knew) don't get off their fat dumba#@es and check this nutsy environmentalism there won't be anything left but cities. Except for the extinction of the rest of us, it might be interesting to see residents of NY,LA,DC, etc. try to make it when the trucks quit running in with supplies. Open the window and you will hear my primordial scream. EEEEEEAAAAAAIIIIIIIIII..................... Vaudine
Read how they are able to classify Salmon as endangered Endangered Salmon THE BIG LIE
The Big LIE of the greening of America is over 70 years old and was put into place by FDR with the NEW DEAL. He told persons residing in the Tennessee river valley that flood control was essential to stop soil erosion. That was the theme of the day for the forming of the Tennessee Valley Authority.
So what does the federal government do? It runs persons off their land and builds lakes to act as flood control devices the secondary benefit at that time was hydro power generation. But what actually happened to the rivers TVA flooded? The died. Soil erosion along the river bottoms due to the volatile water releases of the generators eroded major portions of the river banks and all the rivers are now basically 3 to 4 times wider in places than in 1920. The use of the flooded land was as well lost forever. TVA to this very day by their own practices does more harm to land than they preserve.
Nature will for the most part heal itself. A very good example in this nation is The Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Around 1900 the mountains were stripped bare of timber and other resources. A visit to that park now unless you really know what you are looking for would lead you to believe it was never touched.
Fires in this park are essential for several types of trees to reproduce. For the most part the NPS sets a perimeter and let's the fire burn itself out. They learned it's better to let ground fires burn the forest floor than to build up fuel to destroy a forest completely.
If life and property were in danger it was irresponsible to deny water from any source to protect it. If it is a back country fire set a wide perimeter and get out safely. A look at Alaska a land where fires are common occurrences teaches that lesson in nature. It will fill it's own void. Including rebuilding streams and fish populations.
Now everybody will think you are a radical nut....Maybe not everybody, but some already do.
Now! next time you copy and paste my age learn HTML to make it real,real,small like I did;-)
I think the lack of experience and part time fire fighters were mostly the reason for this incident. There was only one experienced fire fighter with the crew. They were caught in a gully and all of them did deploy their fire proof blankets.
Clintoon also cut the fire service butgets the last several years and now it's comming back to haunt.
Regulatory Madness!
Font?
Font?
"We have Chinook Salmon, we have Steelhead, we have Bull trout . . ."
The really sick part of all this is that we are now having the largest chinook and steelhead runs in fifty years, and they aren't endangered at all. And the only reason anyone thinks that they are endangered is because lunatic government "conservation biologists" are not accountable to anyone, as the courts refuse to question their "science" and the sheeple sleep through it all.
Check out the current dam counts compared to the ten year average here
There are thousands of bull trout populations all over, and they're not endangered at all either.
I call it The Great Salmon Hoax
[
Reply |
Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]
Bumping to De-regulate the ESA!
TAG You're it.
I hope everyone will join me tomorrow in burning up the phone lines to the White House and the Congress to do away with the Endangered Species Act. It must go, something has to give, our farmers need protection and so do our firefighters.
What is loose in our country? Facism? Communism? Totalitarianism? I know some "ism" is on the loose and must slam into the dead end of the Constitution.
Don't let these lives be lost in vain!
Speak out against ESA Insanity!
My heart goes out to the firefighters and thier families.
This was a needless and senseless tradgedy!
Praying and BUMPing for Government REFORM!
I sent this thread, and, the FOX NEWS website to Lars Larson at radio station KXL in Portland, Oregon.
He has been working on the Klamath Basin fiasco. He has a great broadcast from 12:05 pm to 4:oo pm at www.kxl.com
They were there doing *mop-up* when this happened, I heard.
I got another scenario to chew on: the bubonic plague is endemic in rodent populations throughout Western states and these areas are being burned on purpose due to recent outbreaks.
Just in case, I've already got the tetracycline.
The people that dies were friends of my granddaughter, Becky Smith.
This is just so heartbreaking. Tell your granddaughter
our thoughts are with her in the loss of her friends.
If you haven't already done so please sign the petition in support of the
Klamath Farmers and trying to get rid of the Endangered Species Act.
Also collect as many names as you can from family, friends, strangers
and enter them on the petition under your e-mail address also.
A link to the petiton is provided above.
Thanks! Here's a link:
Weekdays from 12:05 to 4:00 pm
My God! This is terrible! Let's get on the Critters about this and put a stop to this insanity! mailblaster.com and free2fax.com the Critters.
President: phone-202-456-4114
Fax: 202-456-2461
email: president@whitehouse.gov
THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT TO WIPE OUT RURAL AMERICA!
If they aren't stopped .. it will be Human's that will need to be place on the Endangered Species list ..
Got a question ... can anyone sue these whack jobs .. not the Government but the Groupies .. I think it's about time that WE THE PEOPLE tie their @sses up in court for a while .. bankrupt these people .. there has got to be something that can be done ...
How about a little common sense .. heck there is nothing wrong with protecting the planet .. But GOOD GRIEF .. people have to die over a STINK'N FISH ????
The homocentrism of those on this post is striking. Obviously those of you can't understand the positive good that resulted in the lives of many salmon being saved, costing the lives of only a few of an overpopulated species anyway (even if Julian Simon disagrees):-(
Aunt B..I live across the river from a whole nest of those whackos..namely, Eugene, Oregon.
I sent this thread and the Fox News site to Lars Larson at radio staion KXL out of Portland.
His show is broadcast state-wide though. Listen at 12:05pm. www.kxl.com
Oh, Spunky, I signed that the first day it was up.
--if true, terrible and disgusting. I hope everyone can learn and use from these peoples tragedy, at least try and get something good from it, and see where if this is not taken light years beyond sign carrying, and soon, that it's only going to get worse. there needfs to be 24/7 pickets following around the main watermelons and pols involved in the ESA with pictures of these fuirefighters, and yel 'shame" at them. The main sponsors of the original bill, if they are still active and around, nail em with the pictures and story.
The idiots in charge of this policy and others similar are evil and civil servants that you cannot get rid of. they infest the nation with their greed and arrogance and sloth. They are not elected, they stay there, through admin after admin. They get salaries, more than a dozen paid holidays, matching retirement funds, and pensions, and other benfits. They get raises constantly. The US people pay for this crap, and boatloads more crap. There's millions of them. It's the biggest scam out there, the so called 'federal government' which exists FOR ITSELF ALONE as a self perpetuating money making scam through terrorism and coercion, and they exist for their bribers as well, and that's it. Criminal collusion at the very best. You pay for this fire , you pay for the los alamos fire, you pay for the fedgoons at the headgates, you pay to ship advanced weaponry to china, who claims they will nuke us and that war is inevitable someday. At around at 50% total tax bracket now, counting all taxes. You pay for it.
When is enough going to be enough? Where's shrub? Tell ya where, pharting around with scamming the legal immigrants who have been waiting and did it legal, so he can try and once more buy votes that he ain't gonna get anyway by rewarding the illegal immigrants, that's where shrub is at. Helping out his buddies in the two class global society at any cost club, that's where he is hanging out. Phooie.
It's totally corrupt, run by morons for deviates who work for idiots who all hang out at the same gang clubhouse, and it is out of control, it's the freeking borg, they are here.
Another talking point for use at the WH "Klamath Farmers" FReep this weekend?? How many WH tourists do you suppose have heard the extent to which the ESA is affecting innocent human lives?
You're right about that .. We had family in from Boston 2 weeks ago .. thankfully they're Republicans ... well I was telling them about the Farmers and their fight for water .. and the people riding their horses in .. and how PROUD these Farmers made me feel to be an American ... They were TOTALLY amazed .. since they don't get Fox News .. only the Liberal Crap News .. they hadn't heard about this ..
I live far away from these brave people .. and wish I could do more .. but I do send the news to everyone I know in hopes that the truth will get out there ..
We CAN'T let this fight go .. We have to all stand up .. and get OUR VOICES HEARD!!!
I got another scenario to chew on: the bubonic plague is endemic in rodent populations
throughout Western states and these areas are being burned on purpose due to recent outbreaks.
This is just tooooo unreal. I think I am going to go put on my tin foil hat now.
But you know I did hear on the news a couple of weeks ago that they found
a squirrel in Lake Taho, CA with the bubonic plague.
I'm going to go remove my tin foil hat now. ;-)
I understand your passion. But there are better ways to express it than with the language you used...
From JimRob's guidelines on the posting screen: "Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racist or violence posts."
We all might bend the profanity guidelines every once in a while (myself included), but you just smashed them with a sledgehammer.
"Y'all know damn well that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will happen to the bureaucrats responsible for these deaths. At worst, they would just be laterally moved to another position within their department, with equivalent or better pay, fringe benefits, pension/retirement, sick days and vacation pay. That is the reality of "civil service." Ain't nothin' you or I can do about it. AND, George W. Bush will do nothing to change it. You can bet on that!"
The Truth
Close your tags, please...
OK, I'll try again...
I will make calls to the Mass. Congress today.
It will mean nothing to them, but I will do it anyways and encourage my fellow statesmen and women to do the same.
And what .. we should just sit on our hands with out thumbs up our butts and do nothing ... I DON'T THINK SO ..
Sorry but with an attitude like that .. this WAR will never be won .. and I for one won't let that happen ..
I will admit .. I'm new to this site .. and it was a BIG wake up call for me ..
I always believe God has a plan for me .. and maybe finding FR was part of it .. Thank you Lord ..
CareerNavy, I know how you feel but we do try to keep our language where
it is alright for our young children and grandchildren to read what is written.
Go punch a pillow or something.But not a person.;-)
Sorry for the typo's ... a bad habit that I hope to correct someday .. and I hope you understand my point ..
Lars will be in KFalls in two weeks to do a live show. He's been trying to get there, but he's had some kind of logisitics probs...or something.
Excuse me, but fish are for frying! This is a most distressing story. I hope it gets wide coverage and changes some minds about nutty enviro regulations.
I believe on the east coast the hatchery salmon are counted, as opposed to the west coast where the hatchery salmon are NOT counted. Makes sense...the east coast doesn't have a salmon shortage. (stupid, stupid...but effective propaganda)
I am father to a USDA Forest Service Firefighter who, until his recent re-assignment to an engine company, was on a 'Tiger' handcrew team. Last year he was up in Northern Ca. fighting a rather nasty little fire (his first!) that threatened many homes and businesses in an area that the eco-nutz thought should have been returned to its natural state by any means necessary! When the crew bus stopped for water and such at a remote camping facility they were pinned down by rifle-fire from one of 'Ghia's protectors'! His mother and I have been terrified about his safety ever since. Imagine Smokey Bear being shot by Woodsie Owl for trying to put out a fire!
dixiechick2000 said:I believe on the east coast the hatchery salmon are counted, as opposed to the west coast where the hatchery salmon are NOT counted. Makes sense...the east coast doesn't have a salmon shortage. (stupid, stupid...but effective propaganda
Here is a snippit from the link above Endangered salmon THE BIG LIE
REALITY CHECK --State and federal fisheries biologists estimate the spring run of returning chinook salmon on the Columbia River alone will exceed 440,000 this year – more than anytime since counting began in 1938! About 90,000 of these fish are believed to be "wild" salmon. Tribal fishermen this year are being allowed to catch more than 53,000 chinook, including more than 10,000 "wild" salmon that are listed under the ESA. The record run convinced the Washington state Department of Fish and Wildlife to authorize the first sport fishery for chinook on the lower Snake River – above the dams – in more than 30 years.
That means that 350,000 were hatchery salmon. There would have been many many more but the returning hatchery salmon were clubbed to death.
Here is another snippet from the link.
Salmon are the only "species" listed for protection under the ESA that can be caught legally and sold commercially.
This just cracks me up that WE CAN EAT AN ENDANGERED SPECIES.
People-before-salmon BUMP...
From the Seattle Times...
Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:00 a.m. Pacific
Why Thirty Mile Fire raged without water
By Chris Solomon
Before the Thirty Mile Fire turned deadly July 10, dispatchers delayed sending a helicopter to drop water on the flames because they were unsure whether they needed permission to draw water from a river containing threatened fish, the U.S. Forest Service said yesterday.
Seattle Times Eastside bureauFourteen firefighters and two hikers were trapped late that afternoon by the fire along the Chewuch River in Okanogan County. Four of the firefighters died. One critically burned firefighter remains in the hospital.
Yesterday, Rep. Scott McInnis, R-Colo., chairman of the House Resources' forest subcommittee, suggested that concerns about Endangered Species Act protections may have contributed to the deaths.
A nearly two-hour delay did occur that day, but not because of the strictures of ESA, said Elton Thomas, fire-management officer for the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests.
Water can be plucked from a river without permission from wildlife agencies during such an incident, Thomas said. However, in the water- and fish-sensitive Methow Valley area, dispatchers may have been simply "trying to do the right thing," he said.
One firefighter trapped that day believes the delay was critical.
"If we'd had the water when we'd asked for it, none of this would have happened," said Ellreese Daniels, a 24-year firefighter. When the water did arrive, it was too late to be useful, he said.
On July 10, a helicopter arrived in Twisp around 10:30 a.m. and waited to be summoned by the commander at the fire 30 miles north of Winthrop, said Jan Flatten, environmental coordinator for the national forests.
Incomplete Forest Service dispatch logs show the fire-crew boss, Pete Kampen, called for the helicopter at 12:08 p.m. But McInnis, citing confidential sources, said calls for water drops came as early as 5:30 a.m.
The helicopter did not take off until about 2 p.m. Dispatchers tried to find someone to authorize taking water from the Chewuch, which has steelhead, salmon and bull trout listed under the federal Endangered Species Act.
It took almost two hours to find District Ranger John Newcom, who was overseeing work on a then-larger fire south of Twisp.
After approval from Newcom, the helicopter took off, attached a bucket at 2:38 p.m. and got to work. Some time around 4 p.m., the fire trapped 14 firefighters and the hikers. They deployed their fire shelters around 5:25 p.m.
Neither the National Marine Fisheries Service nor the U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife, which manage the fish, must approve water removal in such a case, however, said spokesmen for both agencies.
Nonetheless, there appeared to be confusion over whether approval was needed. "We don't want it to work that way," Thomas said. "We want to make sure folks aren't taking unnecessary time."
The Thirty Mile Fire deaths have raised questions about training, experience and policies. A team of experts has been investigating. A report is expected later this month.
"Everybody has a little piece of the picture, and everybody's trying to fit all those pieces together. But really, only the investigation team has the whole picture, and it's premature for anybody to say that anything was caused by one action," Flatten said.
Whatever the role of the ESA might have been, other judgments clearly led to the tragedy, too, said Andy Stahl, executive director of Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics. "It sounds as if there were some misjudgments made about the level of risk throughout that day."
I wonder if John Travolta or Julia Roberts will make a movie about this?
CLICK HERE for the harrowing story of what the firefighters faced during the 30 Mile Fire. It was sheer luck that only 4 died. Here's an excerpt:
Daniels stared at the churning fire, its gaseous center curling in on itself. "When it came in it was just rolling and rolling. It was eating up just everything that it had in its way."
The fire raced up the far side of the valley — "rolling right by us now, just across the little creek," Rutman wrote.
Then, suddenly, it fell back on itself and pushed straight at them.
"Here it comes," Rutman wrote. "The sun is covered, bright orange, then yellow, then red...
"And now it's gray, here come the flames again. It's snowing-"
Snowing fire. In the flash of Rutman's camera, red embers whitened like snowflakes. Daniels barked to pull out their fire shelters. They brushed embers from their clothes, their hair. They wore their shelters like capes against the falling ash. Down the road, trees were delicate silhouettes, backlit by the coming fire.
It was 5:24 p.m. Kampen, his squad and the Hotshots sat blind on the other side, waiting. Then Jasso's voice snapped from above: "Daniels has deployed."
The fire washed over them. A sound like a jet. A locomotive. A tidal wave. A scream.
From beneath his shelter, Daniels talked to Jasso.
"You could hear his inflection change, and you knew things weren't good," Jasso said.
Daniels yelled to the others on the road to keep calm. He sipped water and took shallow breaths. The flare-like fusees ignited in his backpack, which sat next to his shelter. He shoved them away, singeing his hand.
Rebecca Welch fit the Hagemeyers [the 2 hikers] into her one-person shelter. They prayed. They squirmed to seal out the sparks and hot gases from the too-small space. The camper top on the Hagemeyers' truck began to melt, pooling like mercury in the dust.
Rutman crouched in his shelter, knees to chest. Embers pounded his flimsy shield in waves, "like a football team pelting you with snowballs."
Inside was black. He faced the road, searching for the coolest air, but sucking in heat. He began to hyperventilate. His hard hat kept him from getting his lips to the ground. Once or twice he looked up. The pinprick holes of the shelter showed eerie red constellations.
"I really felt there was a dark presence in the shelter," he said. "I felt like there was something else, something bad....
"You've got the wrong guy," he yelled at Death. "This isn't my time."
He fought the urge to leap up. He heard screams. He thought of his family and almost gave up. Then he remembered the Leatherman. He pulled it out and began to dig a hole to breathe.
No one is sure how long they lay there.
Up the steep talus slope above the road, the incline softened, briefly. Dry vegetation poked from between the rocks. A lone spruce tree hovered above.
Here, where six of the crew were huddled, it's not clear why some moved when and where they did. Perhaps, Kampen said, Taylor and Craven, sure-footed and strong, hoped to lead them to sanctuary: a bald, flat spot higher up, with no shrubbery to burn.
The fire slammed them as they ran. Taylor, in the lead, yelled for the group to deploy. Five fell in a cluster about 100 feet uphill from the road. Taylor dropped some distance above them.
Firefighters are taught to deploy on roads and rocks. And they're taught that once inside their shelters, they stay: conditions outside are worse.
But Jason Emhoff had lost his gloves. Heat baked the aluminum on his shelter, scalding his bare hands. He abandoned the thin covering and hid behind a boulder. Then he fled, leaping into the van.
Taylor, the fire veteran, feared he would die if he didn't move. He'd rather die running. He tugged his ever-present Nomex shroud around his ears and face and put on his safety glasses. He threw off his shelter and flew downhill, bounding over boulders. Pounded by a hail of embers and fire chunks the size of bowling balls, he splashed into the river. He left only his nose above water.
I wonder if John Travolta or Julia Roberts will make a movie about this?
Well, I dunno about them, but someone should!
I sure have not heard this reported here! unbelievable
Don't be an idiot. Educate yourself.
Absolutely, Beth.
Well, well, jennyp.
I see we are on the same side of an issue for once.
Welcome aboard.
We are moving to the county right next to you (Bandera), and my husband works in Kerrville. Last year, you probably remember, we had forest fires raging out of control in Bandera county in remote but populated areas. If those firefighters had not been able to use the cow trails for roads because the land was "protected" or to use water to fight these fires from the Guadalupe and Medina rivers because of fish, frogs or salamanders, these deaths could easily have happened here. Thankfully, no such policy exists here, but thousands of acres were burned clear of trees and the soil has already begun to erode from them, causing hardship for ranchers and farmers. I am sickened to think how much worse it could have been if we had been in the grip of the environazis. We must never let this miscarriage of justice be forgotten, or let this insanity ago any further. Just tell me where to send the letters, e-mail, etc.-I will have time to do it late this afternoon.
If Bush had any balls at all, he would have the Wild Life and Fish commission in his office begging for mercy for being idiots on that blunder.
<>This fire burned out of control because of Clinton/Gore's roadless policy. Firefighters couldn't get in to fight it.
So what?. Nature recovers. What is your point?.
Human beings don't.
ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT may be RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF FOUR FIRE FIGHTERS
Reply from the Watermellons:
"Colateral damage"
Good greif....I don't think my little brain can EVEN handle another conspiracy theory....by the way I just heard that a chipmunk at Lake Tahoe had been found with the plague....what next??
"Everybody has a little piece of the picture, and everybody's trying to fit all those pieces together. But really, only the investigation team has the whole picture, and it's premature for anybody to say that anything was caused by one action," Flatten said. Whatever the role of the ESA might have been, other judgments clearly led to the tragedy, too, said Andy Stahl, executive director of Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics. "It sounds as if there were some misjudgments made about the level of risk throughout that day."
Everybody involved in this, including "Mr. Executive Director of the Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics," should be fired.
But you know that won't happen. NOTHING WILL HAPPEN to any bureaucrat involved in this tragic loss of lives. NOTHING. All the calls to Congress, President Bush will result in NOTHING but platitudes and pronouncements, maybe even another taxpayer-funded bureaucracy, but as for holding anyone accountable, and FIRING the idiots involved - NOTHING will happen. NOTHING.
/
"it's the freeking borg, they are here"
Resistance is FUTILE!! Nah, they'll have to take me outta here dead! Be damned if I'll make it easy for them.
I have taken the liberty of rewriting Lincoln's Gettysburg Address to make it more in keeping with the times:
Eleven score and four years ago, our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new bioregion: conceived in diversity, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created lower than vermin.
Now we are engaged in a great ecological war. . .testing whether that bioregion, or any bioregion so conceived and so dedicated. . . can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war.
We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those poor creatures who here gave their lives that that bioregion might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate. . .we cannot consecrate. . . we cannot hallow this ground. The poor animals and plants, endangered and extinct, who struggled here have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here.
It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who struggled here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us. . .that from these honored dead and extinct creatures and plants we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion. . . that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have gone extinct in vain. . . that this bioregion, under Gaia, shall have a new birth of Diversity. . . and that bioregion of the Animals. . .by the plants. . .for the birds. . . shall not perish from the earth.
ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT right from the U.N
"Simple answer? Insanity.
More complex answer? Schizophrenia induced by a bunch of screaming idiots who are certain, absolutely certain, that this globe would be better off without humans.
But more important, the Congers of the Unitity States actually subscribed to an unsupportable and, on the face of it, stupid thesis: namely, that the loss of ANY species meant the ruination of all species.
Will Rogers used to say that his jokes didn't hurt anyone, but that when Congress makes a joke, it's a law.
Will was right. The endangered species act is so idiotic that one would normally laugh uproarously at the joke. Unfortunately, the Congers made this joke into a law. "
I requoted your entire magnificent post. It bears repeating.
The ESA is the policy distillation of liberal emotion, liberal enforcement, and economic practice. It is the perfect reflection of liberal self-loathing, totalitarianism, and categorical economics. It demands that people come last, by any means, and always. The ESA will be used increasingly to make life unmanageable in the "red" zones, and drive people into the "blue" zones, where their political influence can be lessened.
I said this under another article concerning this story...
Here's my comments:
1. There have been an increase in fires while the American logging industry has been in decline. It would seem to me that loggers would lose profits from forest fires. Hence, with more loggers on the job there would be a decreased chance of simple fires becoming catastrophes.
2. It seems to me that the Endangered Species Act is quite powerful, more powerful than the natural drive to preserve human life. That's some mighty powerful legislation if you ask me.
---
New part...
This government is out of control. (Relax, it's just an observation.)
Wonderful Democrats, those fish had as much right to live as the firefighters. Gotta love them leftist eco-nuts.
Don't laugh. Those fish are registered to vote in Chicago.
What I'd like to know is if the helicoptor pilot realized the danger the firefighters were in, why didn't he say screw the law and get the water to his colleagues.
I was telling Hubby, a former Hotshot who is recevering from surgery right now, about how an EPA regulation is responsible for the deaths of four fellow Hotshots.
Hubby's response: "How will the EPA feel about their fish when the flashover crosses a stream? The fire sucks all the oxygen out of the water and suffocates the fish.
"If you've ever been in a flashover, even under your Reynolds Wrap, it sucks all the air out of your lungs. In training, you have to learn to expel all the air from your lungs because the pressure is so strong it can implode them.
"I know, been through of them".
"To hear how these brave men and women died - protecting the expensive homes of spoiled elitests who voted for the policies that chose fish over firefighters - makes me ill."
Every time I see a big home in the woods with expensive wood siding I figure they're probably enviros. They of course will be allowed to stay when the rural cleansing begins in earnest...well for awhile at least.
Recently heard a talk radio program where the lefty psuedo-scientist was talking about parasites and the fact that humans are such. There are two kinds of parasites and one is beneficial one not....humans being of both sorts. Guess which catagory you and I will fall into? This will be important when they finish RURAL CLEANSING and begin URBAN CLEANSING..."still too many humans some will have to be thrown from lifeboat earth to save Mother Earth."
Expect to hear more about human parasites in the future.
We are almost finished building a big home in the woods-all stone and steel-only wood is cabinets, etc. We didn't do it so the environuts would love us, though...we figured it would make a pretty good fort, and not burn if the fires got out of control. Let the wackos leave-we're not going anywhere!
Gee, you're obviously VERY smart. Exactly how long, Mr/Ms/Mrs expert, does it take for 8,422,237 charred acres to recover? 8,422,237 is the number of acres burned in 122,827 fires during the 2000 wildfire season, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.
Do you understand the concept of eight million, four-hundred and twenty-two thousand, two hundred and thirty-seven acres burned? Do you know how many acres that is?
Add to those millions of acres the 1,531,121 that have burnt so far this year. Add to that number the millions that are expected to burn during the next six weeks.
So what if "nature recovers"? How much can nature recover before there's nothing left to recover? What's your point?
Veteran fireman in disguise says; "The crew had ordered water. Needed a helicopter with water and they were denied the use of water from the Chewuch River. They were told that this was a protected water source and that they needed to go through the channels to use this water source.
Kind of reminds me of Nam when fire missions had be approved by some air conditioned panty in the five sided puzzle palace. By the time approval got back to the firing battery, we had to adjust it on our own heads and hope, if it was approved at all.
THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT IS KILLING PEOPLE
It isn't just the ESA, it is every damned law they have passed trying to make life risk free.
These people's relatives need to go stand in front of these "decision makers" offices and hold up signs with pictures of their lost loved ones and shame those idiot cowards in public whenever they get a chance. And those relatives should file a wrongful death suit against them personally Not those agencies, those named individuals in the thread here who dillydallied and let those people be killed because they couldn't use normal common sense, IMO, they are most likely guilty of a serious breach of ethical standards, even within the framework of their convulted and bogus "laws". The proof needed is that eventually water DID get taken from the stream and used, which proves it always could have been.
Until such a time as individual governmental workers are held responsible for their actions this nonsense will continue, and I mean from the lowliest to the highest in any of these agencies. I don't care if anyone was 'waiting for orders" or anything, comes a time a human being is supposed to act like a human being. "chust followink ze orderz" is the nuhremberg defense, that was shot down legally in federal court recently when a federal judge said that horiuchi could be prosecuted in state court for manslaughter. This case is really no different. There should be wrongful death charges brought. I'll say it again, there needs to be local prosecutors and local grand juries looking into ALL the ramifications of the enforcement of the ESA, because there are states laws in addition to federal laws being violated with it's enforcement, that "trump" any federal provisions, there's stealing, this manslaughter potential case, usurpation of born-with rights, and I bet if it got looked into, a lot of "consulation fees' that have gotten spread around high level officials in all three branches of government on this one pseudo "law"..
The statutory code and the original wording of the constitution are clear, one code that violates another that is an "unalienable right" is null and void from it's inception, meaning it's so much hogwash. The borg can be stopped once all the little borgs know they will be held personally responsible for their actions.
Seems pretty clear to me, the firefighters were tasked with stopping the fire, their support hierarchy is tasked with the power to be 'the support hierarchy", and was guilty of malfeasance to the extreme,well beyond any standards that a jury would need to convict, and it wasn't an accident, it was a delibarate over-emphasis on *some* provisions of this stupid law, they always had an option, they delibarately chose on purpose to ignore that, and waited too long to "enforce" that provision, leading to these 4 deaths. As in all these other cases, they have been warned all over numerous times to follow the real law, they have been notified in print, on the phone, by published words, ytou name it, they have been notified, they choose to not do their jobs for some reason, so they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. No little fine action that the taxpayers pickup, they need to fund their own defense and be held personally responsible. Those people's relatives need to find a local prosecutor and get cracking, charge them guys, have them arrested and make them post bail themselves. make them face a local jury on this issue.
"""Everybody involved in this, including "Mr. Executive Director of the Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics," should be fired."""
May 2000 we saw +/- 10% of the homes in Los Alamos NM burn because the Park service(totally inudated with enviro hipsters) started a "controlled burn" in Bandolier Nat. Park. This on one of the few worst days in this century for a fire!!. Any connection that the birth place of the A bomb was burned out by enviro hipsters? One old hippy ready to retire took the fall and retired???!!! Let us watch and see what our Republican president is really made of.
"Washington_minteman, wasn't that fire pretty close to you?"
Oh yeah, only 150-miles away. The Thirtymile fire is the only one that's become newsworthy, though. Some of them are a lot closer. It all depends on how close the watermelons from Puget Sound get on their camping adventures.
Thirtymile was human-caused -- someone left a campfire burning and the authorities are still looking for them.
It's amazing how the same mentality that wants to "protect" the freekin' fish, thinks nothing about burning half the national forest down and killing four people.
In another thread about this last week, I commented about how the laws in place that prevent spraying for weeds along the roadsides has contributed to the intensity of these fires. Now the dry weeds (and they are "always" dry for some reason -- maybe that's why they are called "weeds"), must be cut, which allows the seeds to blow into the forest, where, once they grow there, provide a fuel that burns very easily, very hot, and very rapidly.
Anyhow, I have to rescue a bird that has gotten itself lost in my chimney, then get back to work :-)
Heck, Spunky, we don't even have to fish for them...we can buy 'em in the grocery store, all marinated and everything. BTW, this year in Oregon the salmon won't be clubbed to death. They are going to be gassed! More humane and better PR, don'cha know, especially since the gov't was caught clubbing them on videotape last year. That was some messy business and hard for them to explain.
Thanks AuntB. Maybe good will come from this evil and the ESA will fall into overwhelming disfavor. Prayers to the families of the firefighters who were killed.
I don't even know who's in charge of Education in Oregon now, how pathetic is that?
Stan Bunn is the current Superintendent of Public Education in Oregon. (503)378-3569.
Thanks for the post and stats-very informative. Here in our area, the soil is very thin and only covers solid rock a few feet in the deeper places. A large area of the hill country is made up of rocky escarpments, bluffs and cliffs above rivers and creeks. Brush and forest fires not only take lives, homes, and timber, they also take food from grazing animals, and soil begins to wash into the creeks and rivers almost immediately when it rains. The fire warnings signs on the county roads are already set on "high chance", and a "burn ban" is in effect. If it does not rain soon, and a lot, we can look forward to more acres going up in smoke, and the possibility of lives lost. A lot of the people in the forest service say if property owners did more brush thinning, and "controlled burns" were allowed, this might not happen, but our own brand of idiots won't let it happen. They are mostly wealthy large landowners, not ranchers, who don't want their pretty, 1000 acres huge deer parks trimmed or threatened. If a fire starts there naturally, it will spread to every property around it. Fortunately, there aren't many of these guys (yet).
Isn't Stan Bunn a supposed Republican?
Aunt B: thanks so much for the heads up here. *sigh* I am beyond printable words.
Rose: thought you might like to see this considering the project you're working on.
TGYC & BITN: FYI
Wow, this is the first that I have heard this. Our leftist newspaper, the Bellingham Herald, would never print the truth if it suggested that the enviro freaks have gone too far.
This needs to be bumped all day to get the truth out.
If they aren't stopped .. it will be Human's that will need to be place on the Endangered Species list ..
But that's what they want it's part of the plan, people are not indigenous species.(Unless you happen to be "Native American", of course)
You are going to have to have a pile of mone to do it. They are funded by tax and corporate dollars. Look at their contributors and sue the board of the companies that fund this madness and you might have a chance.
As I key this reply in, Rush is all over this story!
Just remember that Rush and some of us have been warning for years that these Enviro Whackos are the most dangerous and anti humans in America!
Enviralist hate Americans and love to see them disappear from the planet! Their policies killed these young people. Their policies are killing the farm families in the Klamath Basin.
Thirty Mile Fire--according to the Forestry Service
Roger that Grampa Dave, I'm glad Rush is on it...It looks like the people in the air-conditioned offices are fighting a different war than the folks on the front lines. They have a much better grasp of complicated enviro-ethics than anybody down there in the heat (/sarcasm)...a very sad event.
Chronology of Thirty Mile Fire
Stan Bunn is the current Superintendent of Public Education in Oregon. (503)378-3569.
Actually, it was AuntB who was lacking this information, so I'm bumping it to her attention.
Do you happen to know who the current President of the Oregon Education Association is, and if it happens to be the same person who ran for election under the Socialist Party banner a few years ago?
First Forest Service Report on Thirty Mile Fire
"The Thirty Mile Fire was first discovered during the evening of July 9. An unattended camp fire is the suspected cause. During the afternoon of July 11, 2001, high winds developed causing the Thirty Mile Fire in the Chewuch River Valley, north of Winthrop, WA to blow up and grow from approximately 5 acres to over 2500 acres within 2 ˝ hours.
21 firefighters and 2 civilians were entrapped in a narrow canyon of the Chewuch River Valley. Fires shelters were deployed in an area surrounded by fire on all sides. Four firefighters were killed and another four firefighters and 2 civilians were injured. Most of the injured are either in satisfactory condition or have been treated and released with one exception. One firefighter was airlifted to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, WA and is listed as serious and stable.
"This is a great tragedy and loss that is felt by all firefighters and agency employees everywhere," said Sonny J. O’Neal Forest Service Supervisor of the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests. "Firefighters are a family and any time a firefighter is killed, grief is felt by all."
A national investigation team will visit the site today to determine the cause of the tragedy and tolook for lessons that can improve firefighter safety everywhere. A national Type I incident management team is assembling today to assume responsibility for suppression of the Thirty Mile Fire.
Families of firefighters killed and injured have been notified. All firefighters entrapped were members of a combined crew from the Naches Ranger District and the Lake Wenatchee and Leavenworth Ranger District of the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests.
Those killed include Tom L. Craven, 30, Ellensburg, WA; Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18, Yakima, WA; Devin A. Weaver, 21, Yakima, WA; and Jessica L. Johnson, 19, Yakima, WA. Those injured are: Jason W. Emhoff, 21, Yakima, WA, who was transported to Harborview Medical Center and is currently listed as serious and stable; Thomas R. Taylor, 31, Leavenworth, WA, to be released from Brewster Hospital this morning; Scott Sherzinger, 24, Selah, WA treated and released; and Rebecca Welch, 22, Naches, WA, treated and released.
Because of the remoteness of the entrapment site, and the need for an investigation, it will not be possible to recover the bodies until today.
Today, the Thirty Mile Fire is being monitored as a strategy is being developed for its suppression. The exact size will not be known until mapping is completed. The new incident management team will determine numbers of firefighters and types of equipment needed to suppress the fire."
Tankers on way, tankers diverted??? From the 'Chronology'
IMHO, they could have put out the fire 'with water' on the morning of the 11th. Why didn't they do it?
"...what next??"
Prarie dogs and chipmunks. Their poplulations have (re)grown dramatically with burn bans and they're known hosts for the plague. A prarie dog was found dead from the plague in CO 2 weeks ago. Chipmunks, squirrels and prarie dogs are all plague hosts. Burning kills the infected colonies since the sick animals cannot flee the fire.
My mistake, the Forest Service News release reported it(incorrectly) as the 11th. The fire could have been put out 'with water', IMHO, on the morning of the 10th
Cindy, your poster should be carried by our protestors in DC and at Klamath Falls!
Rush just said a helicopter pilot who does this type of work just called in. The pilot couldn't stay on line but Rush said, the pilot said, this is the stupidist thing he has ever heard of. He said there is no way these buckets could catch any fish, because the sound of the helicoptor blades scare the fish out of the way. He said if the bucket could scoop up bucket loads of fish that is the way they would catching the fish.
THIS IS CRAZY, CRAZY, CRAZY how could anybody in their right mind believe in the ESA?
Totally disgusting. I suppose your son was prohibited from protecting himself by so called gun control laws. Here's another case that proves gun control enables criminals.
Maybe I am just a Ditzy Blonde, but please someone remind me who or what GAIA is......Thanks!!!
GAIA- Earth Day 'Mother Earth'---Timothy Leary---Here's a 'link'---
THANKS SO MUCH for posting this, though it made me cry too.
".......
We, therefore, God-loving, peace-loving, life-loving, fun-loving men and women, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the Universe for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the Authority of all sentient beings who seek gently to evolve on this planet, solemnly publish and declare that we are free and independent, and that we are absolved from all Allegiance to the United States Government and all governments controlled by the menopausal, and that grouping ourselves into tribes of like-minded fellows, we claim full power to live and move on the land, obtain sustenance with our own hands and minds in the style which seems sacred and holy to us, and to do all Acts and Things which independent Freemen and Freewomen may of right do without infringing on the same rights of other species and groups to do their own thing.
And for the support of this Declaration of Evolution with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, and serenely confident of the approval of generations to come, in whose name we speak, do we now mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor."
Author: Dr. Timothy Leary, Ph.D.
TOLL THE BELL! The Endangered Species Act Must Go.
AMEN TO THAT!!!!!
MR Bush remove them from office NOW all of the clition holdover
I am a civil servant for the DoN. I live in a $43,000 dollar townhouse a block from government subsidized housing. I go to work at 0630 every day doing a job that they couldn't get a contractor to do for twice what I earn. I pay for most of my healt ins. and invest heavy in the government version of a 401K plan which is almost as good as major corporations offer. My pention, if I ever reach retirement is just a small increase over social security.
I work hard, receive few rewards and the closist to a bribe I have received is a $3.50 mug with a vendor's Logo that I had to get permission to keep. I get only 10 vacation days a year, the same as most people.
I am like most civil servants, no different than most other Americans. Sure. Uncle Sam pays my wages, but I pay taxes the same as you.
In scanning this thread, I did not see any comment relating to Senator Barbara Boxer's speech on the Senate floor relating to the Klamath Basin rural cleansing.
Boxer said, "Someone has to look out for the fish".
I just called Boxer's office and said that I hope she will get the opportunity to tell the families of the dead firefighters that "Someone has to look out for the fish".
Not a bad idea....call (202)224-3553.
Or send an email....http://boxer.senate.gov/contact/webform.html
I am a civil servant for the DoN. I live in a $43,000 dollar townhouse a block from government subsidized housing. I go to work at 0630 every day doing a job that they couldn't get a contractor to do for twice what I earn. I pay for most of my healt ins. and invest heavy in the government version of a 401K plan which is almost as good as major corporations offer. My pention, if I ever reach retirement is just a small increase over social security.
You must be either very young, or have very low self-esteem to settle for such conditions.
George W., we're starting to hear about the ESA every day. It's making me sick...literally...that we've put ourselves in this position. We voted for you under the guise that you'd be able to make some tough decisions with your conscience rather than polling. I can think of no other decision that needs to be made more quickly than this one. Reign in your EPA, and start the ball rolling on the gutting of the ESA.
VERY smart move! Fire-resistance is a good thing, and stone is usually lower-maintanence besides. I love a log cabin, but I support the loggers who harvest the wood responsibly. Any greenie who berates the loggers and wants to drive them out of business has NO business in a log home...
Well, well, jennyp.
I see we are on the same side of an issue for once.
Welcome aboard.
Hehe, I'm sure we're on the same side of a lot more issues than you expect!
"What's the point of changing Prez's if we can't get rid of the henchmen??"
It won't be a matter of US changing Prez's. The Republicans won't have a hope in hell of getting anyone in unless they start getting PRO-active on this stuff. Ignoring it will not make it go away. There is NO grassroots consensus building going on with the Republicrats. Too many are trying to be "moddddddderate".
The one thing the other side does is back every whacko group in existence that furthers their agenda. The Repubs OUGHT to get a clue from that.
Somehow, somewhere we need to make these "enviro-socialist-anarchists" pay.....BIGTIME! Just beating up on a piece of paper called the Endangered Species Act isn't enough of a message. These freeks need to feel good peoples anger directly!
bump
Brought this whole matter up to a leftist radical tree hugger at work. He didn't bat an eyelash when he said "those people were inexperienced at fighting fires and had poor leadership". I asked him about the problems concerning water being needed but not approved for use from streams, etc due to issues concerning the ESA and he would not answer the question. Just ignored it and kept saying it was the firefighter's fault.
One reason, of many, that I rarely talk with this guy anymore - nothing I or anyone else says will sway him. The guy wants a "pristine" environment, even at the expense of human lives, I believe...
A BUMP TO INFORM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.....
In 1984, had a chance to participate in fighting a fire in Oscoda, MI near Wurtsmith AFB. The smoke was an orange brown and the sky was the same color. It was darn tough work and these embers came down and burned holes in pants, shirts, etc. Saw the darn thing crown on the trees and it really did outrun people on the ground - they ended up jumping in a river. Scared the crap out of us. And it burned only about 950 acres....
These fine young people died at the hands of evil people who hold animals more worthy than human beings. These environmentalists aren't "wackos"- they're quite sane and logical- like Hitler. Environmentalists are not "sick" but they are motivated by bad values (a religion of the Earth). We the decent are at war with treehuggers who would see firefighters die horribly for the sake of foodstuff (salmon). Call them on their contemptuous value system, don't give them excuses of being "sick". The ESA is only as potent as the treehuggers and their lawyers (don't get me started on THEM) make it. We must expose their organizations, membership, addresses etc. so we can shame them before decent society.
They have ruined the coal workers, loggers, oil workers, and now farmers. These are the endangered species. Does this seem like some kind of plan?
BUMP TO INFORM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!
Why didn't the "dispatch" just order the helicopters to do it? It sounds like it was that person's call to make, but they didn't want to "break red-tape". GET SOME BALLS AND DO IT and we will break the red-tape down afterwards.
Not a radical nut....just an uninformed fool
Not a radical nut....just an uninformed fool
A 17-member team from the Forest Service and other federal agencies is now investigating whether the four firefighters died as a result of the policy....
Here we go again. Another federeal agency investigating itself to see if it has killed american citizens. Spare me!
No one in the upper level of government in Washington is going to hold anybody accountable, or meet out any punishment for criminally stupid actions, because,[heaven forbid] someone might get the idea to hold them accountable for their actions. All we're going to get is the old Potomac two-step and the Washington shuffle and more business as usual.
Bumping to inform the American people...
Not a radical nut....just an uninformed fool
Like you? Nope, Spunky and I will never fall to that level of ignorance. Have a nice day, lefty.
Think about it.......IF these Lives were in DANGER ...do you think that the water helicopter would STOP to get PERMISSION to save these peoples LIVES? Would you not break into your neighbors house for water if it meant survival?? HELL NO...you would do what I would do...you'd break in and explain or pay later. Maybe the firefighters were negligent in not assessing their priorities because they were afraid of the consequences.....anyone one of us would break the laws to save a life....anyone. Dont' blame the people who want to save a species.....would you really want all the salmon or manatees or owls gone? What about deer or bear? What would you go hunting for? (How ironic) We need to have some kind of protection for them... not overly protected...like it may seem to be now... but, there is a happy medium..,...something like this fire is a priority...the fire fighters should of saved lives instead of worrying if you are breaking a law and having to pay the fines. I blame the overly cautious fireman too....break the law or let their friends die?? I heard they were never told NOT to get water out of the river!! THey waited to avoid prosecution!! Poor planning. Don't tell me "they didn't know they lives were in danger!"....if they didn't know...then you can't blame the laws either. They should know. PRIORITIES....I'd certainly kill a spotted owl to save a life.
At 9 a.m., the Hot Shots were replaced with a young "mop-up" crew expecting helicopter relief to arrive within the hour. When the mop-up crew inquired about the missing helicopter just after noon, the dispatch office told the crew field boss that helicopters could not be used in the area because the Chewuch River contained endangered fish.
I find it apalling that they would actually tell these brave KIDS this! Fish are more important than they are. Can you imagine what their dying thoughts were?
God Bless their families!
>> George W., we're starting to hear about the ESA every day.
Sounds like a plan to me. First inform the public and get them on your side, then lower the boom on the ESA. Remember dubya ain't as dumb as he looks.
bump this
One must wonder just how long the ESA would last if we actually did something to fight it. I dont mean simply whining on here and trying to do things in our hometowns on a small level. I mean things like what was done in Jarbridge and are being done in Klamath - but on a MUCH larger scale. Any ideas? I have a few, but, fear they may be a bit too militant.......but then again, perhaps it is time?
Something else for our animals-before-man crowd to consider:
How many more times do you think this has to happen before firemen decide to take the lax attitude towards their jobs the police in Cincinatti have taken?
Sorry, only the dead fish vote democrat in chicago.
-ct
I'll bump that!
Yes, the act must go, but also the bureaucrats need to go! Behind almost every story of tyranny in this country there is a horde of bureaucrats acting arbitrarily to destroy the lives of decent, hard working citizens.
Yep, you'd sure think so...but why?...it's the government, other than that I can't think of a reason.....other than the obvious....we are expendable.
Bumping to get the truth out to the American people.....
The communist and socialist, U.N. agencies have been put in in every state .
It is PAST time. Share.
agreeing with a previous post....i'm 18 and live in the democratic MA (yay!) and finding this site has not only scared the fecal matter out of me, but it has opened my eyes to all kinds of enlightening, if not , disturbing elements of our society....i thank you for bringing me the truth everyday
what is it?
bump to the top?
This is a sign that the federal gov't is too big, too Socialist, and too corrupt.
When will people realize that NGO of the U.N. write these reports like the endanger species act
then one House member submits it as a Bill and then the rest of the members sometimes read the reports. And base their votes on them reports. so it become LAW
CONGRESS so easy to be lead.
Most of the heads of the agencies throughout the government, are people that have worked for the U.N. in some capacity.
Andy Kerr Wages War on Growth
By Michelle Cole From the Portland Oregonian, June 4, 2000
Andy Kerr makes an effort to maintain his tarnished reputation.
In a three-page curriculum vitae listing his life's accomplishments, Kerr reports being hanged in effigy -- "at least twice" -- and receiving more death threats than he can count. Kerr also notes that he's a college dropout, schmoozer and agitator.
He doesn't mention an arrest outside a U.S. senator's office. But he'll be happy to talk about it, if asked. "I'm not conflict-averse," Kerr said. "Nobody got anywhere by being nice."
Kerr's career as a leading environmental activist is steeped in some of the most dramatic conflict the Northwest has known. In the 1980s and 1990s he was a much-decorated officer in the conservation movement's war with the timber industry -- with the outcome that logging in the past decade declined by more than 80 percent on Oregon and Washington public lands. Time magazine called Kerr a "terrorist in a white collar." The Christian Science Monitor described him as "one of the toughest environmental professionals in the Pacific Northwest."
Kerr had stepped out of the spotlight in the past several years, first moving to Joseph, near the Wallowa Mountains, then resigning a top post at the Oregon Natural Resources Council because of burnout. Now 45, with a gray beard and paunchy middle, he has moved to a new home and the agreeable climate of Ashland, where he could easily kick back and enjoy life.
But that's not to be. Instead, Kerr is back, preparing to wage a bigger, potentially more divisive battle: shutting down Oregon's population growth. The man who practices his witty and cutting sound bites in the shower is back on the Rotary club speaking circuit, asking audiences, "How many of you want Oregon to be like California?" "I've never had a hand go up," he said. It's a vintage Kerr tactic designed to get people to think about the rest of what he's about to say, no matter how radical.
Kerr is sharpening his soldiering skills by re-reading as he does every spring "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, a Chinese general who lived 500 years before Christ and taught that the supreme art of war is to "subdue the enemy without fighting."
Kerr keeps a list of his enemies handy on his tangerine laptop.
"Andy Kerr can be a jerk. But he's not such a bad guy," said Jon Chandler, a lobbyist for the Oregon Building Industry Association, who is more flattered than concerned that his name appears on Kerr's enemies list. As for Kerr's new organization, Alternatives to Growth Oregon, Chandler predicts it "won't get too much traction."
Jack Ward Thomas, former chief of the U.S. Forest Service, can't help but laugh when he hears of such a dismissal. "That's what the timber industry thought, too," Thomas said. Reputation for trouble For a while, it looked as though Kerr wouldn't be invited to the Northwest Forest Conference convened by President Clinton in Portland on April 2, 1993. The White House didn't want any trouble, and Kerr had a reputation for stirring it up. Endangered species protection for the spotted owl probably wouldn't have made the cover of Time three years before if it had not been for Kerr. He conspired with his colleagues at the Oregon Natural Resources Council to raise the spotted owl issue for the first time in a timber sale appeal. That was in 1981. By 1988, Kerr's fingerprints were on more than 220 similar administrative appeals filed in one month.
"I told them they couldn't have a Northwest Forest Conference without Andy Kerr," said Jeff Rogers, a law school friend of the president and first lady who went on to become Portland's city attorney.
Rogers knew of Kerr's reputation, but he had not met the man. "I said: 'I'll go talk to him and make sure he won't be disruptive,'" Rogers said. "I knew he wouldn't be." Seated next to the secretary of agriculture and across the table from the president of the United States, Kerr said he couldn't help but feel like the baseball player who finally makes the major leagues. Yet few people in his hometown were impressed that Kerr would shake hands with a president. He was the not-so-favorite son of Creswell, a blue-collar mill town in the Willamette Valley. Sandra Wilson, a town historian and Creswell resident for more than half a century, chooses her words carefully in talking about Kerr. "We were a timber town," she said. "Timber people and Andy's people clashed."
Creswell in 1973 was not unlike the 1950s community depicted in the movie "American Graffiti." Most of the young people had gone to school together from kindergarten through high school. Kerr was an intelligent boy, a student government officer and a bit of a prankster. Saturday night usually found Creswell teens cruising nearby Eugene. Kerr's best friend in school, Don Ehrich, remembers they would also swing by Interstate 5 rest stops and shout at Californians to go home. Even then, Kerr liked to shock people. As a practical joke, Ehrich nominated Kerr as a candidate for "Creswell Carnival Queen." Kerr decided he'd play the joke out.
"I wasn't going to wear the dress, but I did want to wear the tiara," he said with a grin. He won the contest. And despite his objections, the students and administrators insisted upon calling Kerr the "Carnival King." Instead of the glass-and-glue dime store tiara, Kerr complained that they made him wear a more "manly" crown cut of cardboard and covered with aluminum foil. His most difficult battles came with his father, a home builder who didn't appreciate Kerr's opinions on forest conservation any more than he appreciated the beard his son wore home from Oregon State University. He made him shave it off each summer. Kerr would grow it back each fall.
During the summer between his junior and senior years, Kerr worked for the family business for six days. "The first five of them my father was on vacation," he said. On the sixth, Kerr decided he'd had enough. "I didn't want to shave my beard off that summer." He hasn't shaved since. Juggling full schedule On a Friday night in April, Kerr wagged his index finger in the face of an aide working for U.S. Sen. Ron Wyden. The Oregon Democrat had written legislation designed to stabilize the amount of money that timber communities receive from logging on nearby federal forest lands. Kerr was outraged that in April 2000, the government would tie dollars that communities need for schools and roads to what he considers the destruction of a natural resource.
That message delivered, Kerr moved from the ballroom to the foyer of the Hilton Hotel in downtown Portland to talk growth with a candidate for the Metro regional council. Then, his burgundy tie askew, Kerr huddled with conservationists headed to Washington, D.C., seeking protection for the sage grouse.
All of this while others attending the Oregon League of Conservation Voters annual banquet listened to the keynote speaker. Kerr isn't one to waste time on 20-minute speeches, or to wait until after dinner to eat his dessert, or to squander an opportunity to consult, advise or cajole. "A happy workaholic," Kerr works 60 to 80 hours a week. He usually packs his schedule so tight that he's forced to change into his suit in parking lots. He's put 125,000 miles on his Toyota pickup in five years and credits cellular phones for cutting down on speeding tickets because now he can do business on the highway. Kerr keeps a digital voice recorder tucked in the pocket of his cargo pants. He yanks it out to dictate memos to himself, such as where he'll find the Toyota in the parking garage or to send some of what he calls his "ego-clippings" to a reporter.
In addition to launching Alternatives to Growth Oregon, Kerr runs the Larch Co., an environmental consulting firm named after a tree that thrives on scorched earth. He's also writing two books. The first, titled "Beyond Wood," argues for forest preservation and against wood products. The second, commissioned by the Oregon Natural Resources Council, is titled "Oregon Wild" and features the state's roadless forest lands. This summer, Kerr's "Oregon Desert Guide: 70 hikes" will be published by Mountaineers Press. He describes it as a "a little natural history, political future and hiking guide -- all with an attitude."
"From the beginning I saw a lot of the same things in Andy that I see in him now," said James Monteith, the Oregon Natural Resources Council's executive director for 18 years. "Andy always knew what he wanted to do and has had a take-charge approach." Monteith hired Kerr as a field representative in 1976. At the time, the organization was known as the Oregon Wilderness Coalition. Kerr describes the operation as "little more than four zealots who needed stationery." They also had one suit between them: a dark three-piece pinstripe that Kerr's mother bought.
"We used to have pictures of each of us testifying (before Congress) in it," Kerr said. In those days, Monteith said, the conservation community was pretty timid. His group's goal was to create enough controversy in the press, in the courts and in the political arena to focus the public's attention on the disappearance of old-growth forests.
Monteith used to call Kerr his "main deck gun."
"You point him and you pull the trigger," he said. "The media and the political underpinnings of what we had to do were handled by Andy as part of our overall strategy." The group appealed so many timber sales in the late 1970s, Monteith said, that Congress called a hearing. "We sent Kerr back," he said. "They grilled him, and Andy held our ground. I think we impressed upon them that we were not going away. We were committed. We were using science and we were using economics."
They were also using the press. Brandishing sound bites Kerr perfected the art of the snappy sound bite. He could be shocking. He could be irritating. But he could always be assured attention. Kerr is the one who came up with the term "Rider from Hell," to describe a 1989 rider, or amendment, drafted by Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, R-Ore., to prohibit conservationists from seeking court injunctions against logging for a year. He insulted timber workers and their families when he said that another Hatfield rider would kill spotted owls "as sure as a drunken logger with a shotgun." And he angered a host of people when he said, "Asking the Oregon congressional delegation in 1990 to deal rationally with the end of ancient forest cutting is like asking the Mississippi delegation in 1960 to deal rationally with the end of segregation."
Reporters who interview Kerr all ask the same question: When? Tell us what prompted you to dedicate your life's work to the environment? "There just isn't an epiphany story," Kerr said. "Sometimes I've tried to make one up."
Early focus on growth
As a fifth-generation Oregonian, Kerr has always been concerned about the effects of population growth. He joined Zero Population Growth
He and his wife of 14 years, Nancy Peterson, have two dogs, a cat and no children, by choice. Over the years, Kerr has peppered his speeches and writing with warnings about overpopulation. Then in the fall of 1997, Kerr sponsored a conference in Portland titled "Alternatives to Growth." He hoped for 200; 600 came.
The interest expressed at the conference, coupled with a University of Oregon survey indicating that 65 percent of Oregonians think the state's population is about the right size now and 29 percent think it's already too large, convinced Kerr the timing was perfect to launch a new campaign.
He had stayed in touch with Rogers, the Portland city attorney and friend of Bill Clinton, since the 1993 Northwest Forest Conference. Kerr also recruited like-minded environmentalists and others to help him form Alternatives to Growth Oregon last year.
The group inhabits a small office in downtown Portland and has a Web site (www.agoregon.org). Yet, Kerr can't say exactly what its agenda will be. "In the next couple of years our goal is to both insist on debate and give permission to the body politic to talk about the end of growth."
Isn't that incendiary?
"Yes."
Racist?
"Unless you favor open borders, you are racist by definition. It's just a matter of degree," he said.
Kerr already appears to have gone too far for some of his colleagues in the conservation movement.
Robert Liberty, executive director of 1000 Friends of Oregon, has worked with Kerr on timber and other issues. He admires him. But "it would be a mistake for people to confuse the work that we do and the work that he does," he said.
His group is battling sprawl, which could happen with or without population growth, Liberty said. "I guess I'm distancing myself and trying to emphasize these are two different subjects."
Meanwhile, Kerr hears encouragement from surprising corners.
Ray Wilkeson, legislative director for the Oregon Forest Industries Council, suffered Kerr-induced heartburn for years. He labels Kerr's views on population "radical," and he warns builders and others who have a stake in Oregon's growth to take Kerr seriously.
"He's very smart. He's tenacious. He's fearless. He's a worthy adversary," Wilkeson said.
Still, Wilkeson confesses, he's "emotionally sympathetic" with Kerr's campaign to end growth. "Whether his ideas are practical or not, I don't know," he said. "One thing he and I have in common, is we're about the same age. ... We can both remember Oregon in the '50s, when we were kids. It was a wonderful place. It really was."
Sandra Wilson, a Creswell historian, says Kerr might find his hometown more supportive, too.
Creswell has about doubled in size since Kerr graduated from high school and went off to fight the timber wars. More than 3,000 people live in the town today, and Creswell is no longer economically dependent upon logging.
"Now it's a bedroom community to Eugene," said Wilson. "I think a lot of people moving in don't have that concept of a small town. They work and shop in the greater metropolitan area.
They're not involved in the community the way it used to be. ... To us who have lived here a long time, it isn't the same, and it will never be the same."
You need to check whose that head of these agencies and their backgrounds.
You will find that most of them have worked for the U.N.
We need to keep this story re-posted, and at the top of the list constantly for all lurkers to see.
We can't let these people die in vain. Let's let their deaths serve as the fulcrum to overthrow all environmental laws and return to sanity.
We need to keep this story re-posted, and at the top of the list constantly for all lurkers to see.
We can't let these people die in vain. Let's let their deaths serve as the fulcrum to overthrow all environmental laws and return to sanity.
"someone left a campfire burning and the authorities are still looking for them."
An environmentalist, no doubt.
"What do you suppose that says about the state of education in Oregon public schools?"
About the same as all of the rest of the schools in the U.S.S.A.
"What do you suppose that says about the state of education in Oregon public schools?"
About the same as all of the rest of the schools in the U.S.S.A.
"What do you suppose that says about the state of education in Oregon public schools?"
About the same as all of the rest of the schools in the U.S.S.A.
"What do you suppose that says about the state of education in Oregon public schools?"
About the same as all of the rest of the schools in the U.S.S.A.
I was in the Medina VFD before moving to Kerrville last year. I fought fire with all those guys from Bandera and the surrounding departments many times. We fought some pretty bad fires, but nothing like those out West. And, yes, thank goodness we do not have to deal with "endangered species" in this area. If we couldn't "draft" from the river, creeks, ponds, swimming pools, etc. we would be in deep trouble.
Where does hubby work?
Let me know when you get moved. Would love to get together!
Actually, I am middle aged and I am quite proud of what I do. The sad fact is that I actually enjoy my work. I like to say that I work on a "real computer" not a PC which is only good for email and games.
--well, thanks for the reply. I'll try to be clearer here. it is my contention that long ago the government passed the 50/50 point on basic "good versus bad". Situations like this firefighter deal, and the klamath deal, are the norm not the exception anymore. And we as civvies can't tell the workers apart no longer, no clue. Nothing bad that happens is ever anyone's fault, they are either following orders, or orders preclude them from following common sense. It just is.
I'm doing my public and free to the people duty in pointing this out, just something to think about, whether anyone is a government worker or not. Read this website for a week, look at the discussions, you can feel the disgust with government building. All these people across the nation are not hallucinating on this. The people have lost any normal redress on most issues, and the result is government is oppressing the people.
That's as clear as I can make it, anymore, government is not seen as either benevolent, or even smart, and least of all compassionate or filled with common sense. Our tax bracket is much higher than back during our first war of secession from oppressive government, and the restrictions and abusive behavior by government are higher as well. Main point is, human nature doesn't change much. Now, think on that, and just take it as some friendly clues.
I would not at this time recommend to any young person to join government, either in the civil sector or the military sector, and this example with the firefighters is a good example why. If they are currently in government, I would recommend getting out of government. If whistleblowing laws worked, if common sense worked, if just voting alone worked, we would still have problems, that is to be expected, but they wouldn't be anything like we have now.
Sorry about you living in town, my generic recommendations to anyone, no matter what, is to not live "in town", but to move rural where the basics of life can be more assured, because the world is changing, and rapidly, and the good old days have passed, we are in the tail end of the good old days, and cities will become increasingly non-viable options for "living". I know vast majority of people currently in that position wouldn't agree, not my call, again, I see it as my personal civic duty to point it out, and it's just an opinion, which is what this board is about. urban areas are 'big government and massive control" areas. they have much higher crime rates, all the necessities of life must be artificially pumped in there, and our western technological society is dependent on really cheap oil, and cheap water, both of which are starting to be "not cheap" and in increasing dispute as to ownership, and distribution and control. The globalists want to herd everyone into the mega-cities, and to be under centralised control and complete domination, and I am against that, for a variety of reasons, all valid, IMO.. Everyone already chooses sides in these issues whether they realise it or not.
I know which side I am on.
Good luck with everyone's choices.
Bumping to inform the American people....
Want to actually REFORM ESA with political muscle in the hands of Rural Americans?
There are 60 million rural Americans- that's the largest single unit of Americans with a common interest and the wherewithall to act smartly and with resolute determination.
We MUST create a national coalition to compete with the environmental donations industry or we will continue to be unjustly treated by Washington D.C., and even our own Senators.
GO TO THREAD II
Working on it now.
"They have ruined the coal workers, loggers, oil workers, and now farmers. These are the endangered species."
Need to put 'faces and pictures' to this, okiecowgirl. --With the 'children' of these endangered species.
Vermonter, I think you have a 'source' for these kind of 'heart-rendering' and 'heart-warming' pics.
Your post said it for me too. I agree with every word you said. My heart is broken for these dear firefighters, their famiies and to see what is happening to America almost daily with this saving fish etc. instead of careing about human life. I am so outraged I can feel my blood boiling.
My nephew is a fireman on the east coast. All firefighters are true heros !!!! It is bad enough they selkdmon get credit for what they do , now to have this happen. ...............my heart is broken.
Thak you for putting this thread up. I am so angry and crying I can hardly type.
ONLY Fox News Channel gave the information lsst night about WHY they did not get water.
I know it is wrong to hate, but I truly hate the environmentalists, each person that is any part of their organizations, all of them. I am so angry, It just does not stop, too many things, too much hurting others that mean no harm to anyone. JUST for stupid fish .They have attacked our wonderful farmers, our loggers and NOW firefighters.
This HAS TO STOP !!!!!!!!!
--I have written several times now, going back a few years, on several different boards a similar idea, the creation of a rural party. Got between zip and nada interest in it so far. Thing is, rural people, in particular rural people who are employed directly on the land, don't join anything much except very local orgs, and usually in crisis mode, or in particualr interest/specialty mode, something that they only are involved in. You can see it in some of the examples, where some natural allies get split, all have little orgs that only represent themselves. Farmers/fishermen for example. It's taken a long time for them to even look at each other without swearing..
. Plus, the perpetuated big lie of the two party system is so well entrenched that it's a herculaen job to try and get any headway. Both the parties-although some differences- are massively urban oriented. The national vote-broadly speaking- will always go towards city peoples recreation or interest first, those few jobs that can be shifted overseas by the global style big capitalists will be shifted overseas, and that's how the vote will go. Look at the latest CARA vote for example. That's where the bribe money is, er, I mean "campaign contributions", and that's where the really big numbers of votes are itjust is, it's demographics and economic reality..
Even when 'rural people" who work outside with natural resources on the land, can see that their own reps will sell them out, that party lever gets yanked anyway, and has for decades, because they all believe-and rightly so- that another vote someplace else gets wasted. Thing is, the vote for the big two is wasted as well most of the time. it's set up that way, vote for perpetuating the system, or your vote gets wasted.
. A further look is at hard demographics. People who actually work outside and off the land are like 2% of the population, or something like that-they have no clout at the state level or national ballot box whatsoever, and they don't have enough organization to shut the water and food and energy off completely, which is exactly what it would take to make an impression.
They can see what happens-denial of food and water and energy- when that weapon is used against them, but they know if they try that themselves to get some notice and power that they will be murdered outright. they may not say that out loud, but everyone knows it. and their own kind will back down. A nationwide farmers strike could have doubled prices anytime it occured, but it's never been attempted, because too many will sell during a strike to make short term profits. there's no cohesion or long term planning, both from inertia, and also from the nature of how our money and bill paying is set up, and also from the fact that most people simply do not have enough stored fgood to last an entire year and seasons of growth, which is the amount of time a nationwide strike would take to have a far reaching and lasting effect.
Reality is, the bigshots in both parties can see they will make more money and get more votes by having food grown outside the country and by kowtowing to the the urban feel good enviros. Reporters by and large side with the enviros. the moral high ground was seized a long time by others, and used to great advantage so far.. These national reps can more or less write off 100% of the 'farm vote" and do so all the time, with a few minor exceptions.
The vast majority of people in this country not only don't "farm", they can't even personally name a farmer. The numbers of non farmers in just a few big cities is more than the entire nation's farm population in total, way more actually. Vast majority of people can not name a single logger they know. Vast majority of people can not name a single miner they know. And it's rapidly getting to the point that soon most people won't be able to name a single perswon who actually makes anything for a living as well.
Looking at it that way you can see how hard it is, you have stubborn people who are by nature not joiners, who are independent by nature, who really do not make that much money, even if they handle a lot the net is small, who sometimes will keep doing the same thing no matter what, and in extremely small numbers nationally, verus tens of millions of people who by and large make more money, join more organizations, have more free time, contribute more to these environmental orgs, and vote more urban oriented, because that's their lifestyle, urban living, with some rural recreation thrown in once in a while in resort areas..
And the large two faced corporate organizations support the latter, all the time. Look at who funds PBS for example. Look at who reports the news across the nation-it's city people who are reporters, and their jobs in even rural states are still usually inside the biggest cities there, and they live there, where their work is, and they are by nature and inclination-urban people..
There was some great quote I read last year, forget which western rep is was attributed to "who am I going to pay attention to, a farmer who gives me 50$ for the campaign, or this corporation who gives me 5,000$?" Carry it further from these pols perpectives, do they want to trade one farmers vote for 25 urban votes? Do they want to trade 1$ in campaign contributions for 25$ from another sector? Sure, they will take both, cash the checks, but how are they going to vote then? And look at the top leadership of both parties, just go back 3 administrationsdd now, what do you see? more global trade, less domestic production of food or wood products, more importation of third world people, and more shipping of agricultural and manufacturing jobs overseas. Both party's platforms and top leadership levels are "into' this. It's their bread and butter, it's their money, it's their power, and it's their urban oriented lifestyle, all in one package, same product , slightly different label and spices added. there are arguments that one or the other party can b3e changed from within, but I maintain the urban, globalist outlook will continue to be the dominant force in both parties for the foreseeable future. This will continue until it is made to "not continue", it will not be petionable or changeable by vote to a great extent, only just so far, until it passes the annoyance stage into the political threat stage. When it reaches that stage, the over lording ones can increase the pressure by a factor of ten or one hundred, almost overnight. The only way you can beat that is by over whelming surprise and intelligence and non centralised but still cohesive organization, ie, an organised loose cell concept, with action on every front, same action the opposition would take. Which would be 'denial" of what they need. Again just speaking theoretically and non judgmentally about it, just tactics. The PTB allow a certain amount of flexible "pseudo-winning" to occur in this nation, but no outright change of direction unless it benefits the majority urban oriented and big money oriented and global citizen of the world oriented faction, because they are in charge now, they want to stay in charge, and they have the minions by the millions to insure their continuuation, and the supplies and logistics and the will. This is a large, firmly entrenched and malevolent and violent opponent, he is a drooling goliath with tremendous appetite, do not be misled by business suits, and propeer procedure, and 'civility", look instead as if these suits are uniforms, shiny and black, with polished silver, and demonic runes stylised, and it becomes clearer. IMO, fail to be able to see it that way or a similar analogous way and one would never have a clear enough picture of the true nature of the opponent to be very effective in opposition.
There are two nations here in this country, although outwardly and officialy there is "one" , one wars and preys on the other, is very successful at it, has been successful at it, and divides the ones it wars on to misdirect the notice of the direction of the attack, where it comes from, and they are very successful at that endeavor as well. They also hold the big stick, and the big carrot. "We" need new thinking, or "we" will lose, it's that simple.
I have posted a
TIMELINE
report of how things
transpired on thread II
At about posting #32
THREAD II
Thanks for this thread. Kudos to all posters on here - well almost all. Nominate this as thread of the day!
"This HAS TO STOP !!!!!!!!!"
Snow Bunny, you are a long way from me, but I can feel your passion. You'll find it hard to be calm and open minded when you see this happening all around you. But when this KFalls thing happened, the one thing we all knew was that we had to keep our senses about us, and STILL do unto others...well, you know. Thanks for being with us, Snow Bunny.
Aunt, thank you so much for your post to me. For a long time I felt like what could I do, I was only one person loaded with passion about these things . But now I cannot hold back and I do not want to. ( smiling)
Thanks too for your help and information on how to get the word out and do my small part.
I agree, we need to speak out. Look what all has been happening. I do not know what the first thing was but I do remember the loggers and how they were harassed by these people and Klamath Falls and now this.
You are right we can make a diffence and we need to write letters and speak out. Sign petitions and let our voice be heard.
This is one of the letters I wrote today.Just as an example of one voice speaking out. I am not a great letter writer I am too passionate to hold back. LOL But it is what I feel so they at least will get my point I am sure.
Sierra Club
http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/community/compact.asp
85 Second St., Second Floor
San Francisco, CA 94105-3441
Phone
415-977-5500
Fax
415-977-5799
The Wilderness Society
Headquarters:
1615 M St, NW
Washington, DC 20036
1-800-THE-WILD (800-843-9453)
email: member@tws.org
To:......
So are you proud of yourselves now? The Endangered Species Act
has done its job. Yes it has put the lives of fish a higher priority then human life. Because of your trying to save some fish firefighters have died needlessly. When are you going to see that human life is important, more important than any fish. If your children, your wife, your husband would be dead because of NOT having water would you care then???? I think NOT.
Of the four firefighters who died in this fire three were just nineteen years old and barely out of high school. Two were girls, and I believe the fourth was a young man in his late twenties or early thirties with small children. The Endangered Species Act was the TOTAL reason for NOT putting water on this fire and that is not only outrages but unforgivable.
My nephew is a firefighter, I pray to God he will not be left at YOUR mercy. He would not have a chance .
Your causes are killing people, endangering the lives of human beings. How do you sleep at night? How do you live each day with the guilt of this. ?
I will never forgive you environmentalists for your agenda to get rid of humans in place of fish. How sad it would be to believe in your agenda , I could not live with myself. How do you ?
My Name here……….
Thanks for the Timeline
Thanks for a great post.
Dear, Max61, I do hope you were being sarcastic in your post. You wondered what was wrong about a wildfire allowing to burn out of control. The problem comes when it is allowed to burn out of control and becomes a threat to humanity. Please read below. I forgot to mention this. There was a wildfire last year which was started by a car on a highway and rapidly spread to the Hanford reservation. Enviro-geeks wept their eyes out about the native plants and animals being wiped out by the fire. The fire threatened residents' homes, burnt several (homes & structures) & one man died during the fire. The fire department did not act immediately to take the best course of action because the feds said they were trying to preserve the native species, etc, and take the least invasive course. Well, the fire rapidly spread out of control, and more damage was done in the time that could have been spent taking immediate action in the first place. Many people were upset by that. However, to add insult to injury, the feds are bickering over replacing homes damaged in the fire - AND the feds have carefully planted - YES PLANTED sagebrush, and laid pipes to irrigate it. Said sagebrush, which were improperly planted in the first place (feds didn't want to disturb other native plants, so they broadcast the seed instead of plowing it into the soil) - has now mostly blown away in the TriCity winds. HA! Any farmer could've told them they had to PLOW! Also, to add insult to injury, as we have had irrigation restrictions for the so-called endangered salmon, water has been flowing through irrigation pipes to WATER sagebrush - a desert plant that is mighty abundant here! This is such a disgusting story that I hate to even write about it as farmers are being denied water for plants that produce FOOD, a livelihood, and sustain our economy. This is just another outrageous story to add to the rest, and I wish that it was not true, but unfortunately it is.
Thanks for posting this transcript.
Investor's Business Daily Editorial on These Deaths
bump
bump
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
[
Top
|
Latest Posts
|
Latest Articles
|
Self Search
|
Add Bookmark
|
Post
|
Abuse
|
Help!
]
FreeRepublic , LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 Forum Version 2.0a Copyright © 1999 Free Republic, LLC |