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William La Jeunesse asks; "What really happened at the 30 mile fire? Well, investigators from two federal agencies are trying to find out. One of the questions they're asking is this. Did a policy to protect fish endanger firemen?
District Ranger John Newcom says, "We have Chinook Salmon, we have Steelhead, we have Bull trout, um all three of those species are in the Chewuch and they all are a consideration as we fight fire.
William La Jeuness: "A consideration but not an obsticle insists Ranger John Newcomb. But two veteran firefighters with intimate knowledge of this fire and the river that ran through it tell a different story.
Fireman in disguise says; "The crew had ordered water. Needed a helicopter with water and they were denied the use of water from the Chewuch River. They were told that this was a protected water source and that they needed to go through the channels to use this water source.
William La Jeunesse says; "Forest policy prohibits firefighting helicopters from drawing water from protected streams out fear they will scoop up endangered fish. Exemptions require review by government biologists.
Unidentified firefighter says; "Lots of people lost friends. People, Oh! See now I am going to cry. So many lost their children, for a fish!
William La Jeunesse says; "Commander Newcomb claims the Endangered Species Act neither delayed nor denied water drops that might have saved lives.
William La Jeuness; "So permission for a helicopter was never denied because of either some forest management plan or pack fish?"
Ranger Newcomb: NO!
William La Jeuness; "If anyone was to make a suggestion that fish and or wildlife were put before people."
Ranger Newcomb; "Absolutely incorrect!"
William La Jeunesse; "Twenty-four hours later the forest service changes it's story releasing a time line in facts that contradict what we were first told and what emerges is a story of young inexperienced firefighters who are calling for and expecting support from water dropping helicopters. While dispatchers wait for enviromental clearance a relatively small fire grows out of control.
William La Jeunesse asks; "Were efforts to save a fish, responsible, for the potential, potentially responsible for the death of these people?"
Environmental officer Jan Flatten; "I don't know and I think thats what the investigation team is going to answer."
In Winthrop, Washington, William La Jeunesse reporting for Fox News
The endangered species act MUST GO!
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL TELLS HOW THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS ARE USING
THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT TO WIPE OUT RURAL AMERICA!
RURAL CLEANSING
LURKERS
DID YOU KNOW AMERICA'S FARMERS
WERE DENIED THEIR IRRIGATION WATER
IN FAVOR OF A BOTTOM SUCKING SUCKER FISH.
DON'T LET THOSE SUCKERS TAKE OUR LAND. "
For those of YOU WHO HAVE NOT YET SIGNED THE PETITION
Please click on the link above in blue and do so now.
This is something that will eventually effect us all.
Ask all your family and friends if you can add their names to the list also.
WE NEED 100,000 SIGNATURES BY AUGUST 21
THEN ONE MILLION BY THE END OF THE YEAR
Read how they are able to classify Salmon as endangered
Endangered Salmon THE BIG LIE
Do you have anymore news updates to add to this thread?
The other thread was so long and it was requested to start a new one.
Call me insensitive for "blaming the victims" here, and I know hindsight is always 20/20, but if I were a firefighter and I was told by my superiors that I could not use the water from the stream, my response would be:
"OK, @sshole, then YOU put the f#cking fire out!"
You mean people are more important than animals?!?!?
BTTT
First Forestry Service Report on Thirty Mile Fire--July 11, 2001
They incorrectly have a July 11(s/b July 10) date in the body of the story.
PDF Chronology of the Thirty Mile Fire
Ping!!!
Thanks, Teacup.
I'm on it!
"...but if I were a firefighter and I was told by my superiors that I could not use the water from the stream,..."
I'm reasonably sure they were never told the reason the helicopters were late.
In the midst of a conflagration such as this, things get hectic, and it's hard to keep your bearings much less question the actions of your superiors.
This from the Forestry Service Report:
"The new incident management team will determine numbers of firefighters and types of equipment needed to suppress the fire."
Nothing said about the possibility of by-passing the rules of the ESA to suppress fires.
"Forest policy prohibits firefighting helicopters from drawing water from protected streams out fear they will scoop up endangered fish. Exemptions require review by government biologists."
This is just wrong.
I love it when these corrupt, statist bureaucrats get caught in one of their usual lies. Unfortunately, I don't get enough of this kind of love....{:-)
The bureaucratic creed: "Always hide, obfuscate, deny, or destroy evidence of, the facts. The peasants don't need the facts."
Pacific Northwest Incident Mangagement Team - 'Thank You'
"To the firefighters, please know that our hearts and prayers are with you forever."
Sentiment holds no water. (Apologies for the cynicism, but this 'little fire' could have been extinguished with a little water before the winds 'kicked up', IMHO). Most 'big fires' start as little fires that are not taken seriously enough.
These young firefighters and Chandra Levy, all got burned by 'political agenda', and officials in government they trusted.
Perhaps it might NOT be all that unwise to go back and check out that Colorado Sptings fire that claimed about 12-14 firefighters and see if THAT was also preventable???? i mean given THESE facts I have to SERIOUSLY wonder if THOSE deaths might have been PREVENTABLE as well folks!!!
Rural Clensing?
They won't be happy until 70% of the population is dead, and the rest is locked up in prisons like N.Y. City, Boston, Sam Francisco, and Lost Angeles.
Contrary to popular opinion here, there is something that President Bush can do immediately to shut down the Endangered Species Act:
The President has the power, through executive order, to De-list every species that is on the list so that the ESA will have no teeth until it is repealed.
We need to bombard his fax, e-mail, and switchboard with demands that he do exactly that immediately.
Thanks for clearing that up. If that is the case, then the guys on the ground had no say in where the water was drawn from. If I were piloting one of the helicopters you can bet I'd be drawing water from that stream.
"Call me insensitive for "blaming the victims" here, and I know hindsight is always 20/20, but if I were a firefighter and I was told by my superiors that I could not use the water from the stream, my response would be:
"OK, @sshole, then YOU put the f#cking fire out!" "
I am a firefighter in a city so I have a whole different set of circumstances than these guys. If I run out of water or see signs of eminant flashover, collapse or conditions which make the building unsafe enough to pose a -real- threat to my life or the lives of my men, I AM BUGGING OUT!
If all that remains of the structure is a smoking, spalled chunk of concrete, so be it.
All I have to do is walk out the front door. Fact of firefighting is if someone is trapped and it is likely that rescuers will also be injured or killed trying to get them out, then that person is own their own.
These guys in the story may be miles away from any safe haven, carrying a few gallons of water in a pump sprayer, and have a hoe or shovel and a radio. Oh not to mention ~30 lbs of protective gear. They can't just walk out the front door.
Their lives depend on air support and obviously the lives of fish that *could* have died was worth far more than these guys who DID die.
Those who denied that water are guilty of MURDER IMHO!
soapbox mode off
"Perhaps it might NOT be all that unwise to go back and check out that Colorado Sptings fire that claimed about 12-14 firefighters and see if THAT was also preventable????"
All firefighter deaths are preventable, and every one of them is a prosecutable crime under federal OSHA regulations.
Why have we not seen these cases prosecuted?
If it were a private employer, there would be management people doing prison time for these crimes.
"Those who denied that water are guilty of MURDER IMHO!
I would go farther than that:
All of the members of congress that voted for this outrageous act are also guilty, and must be made to know that they have blood on their hands (again).
Clay Moore? - Are you the Lone Ranger? ;-)
If it were a private employer, there would be management people doing prison time for these crimes.
If it were a private employer, the fire department would never send anyone into a building if there was even a remote chance of them getting hurt. The difference here is that OSHA would probably not consider a burning building a firefighter's "workplace." The fire station probably meets every OSHA code.
"Sentiment holds no water."
I agree because they'll do the same darn thing again!!
Animals, fish, birds, insects, clams, lizards, flowers, vines, etc., you name it, are more important than people.
It's a crock, and I'm sick of it!!
Hey, let's face it. Nothing will ever change until people start refusing to work under these conditions. If one of those kids down there was a Congressman's daughter, you can bet they would have emptied every river in North America to get her out.
This goes for both Republicans and Democrats, by the way. Any time I am faced with a potentially dangerous circumstance (which, admittedly, is not often), I always assume that nobody is going to be there to get me out.
"If it were a private employer, there would be management people doing prison time for these crimes."
Maybe not prison, but you can bet the lawyers' fees for prosecution and defense would most assuredly impact the businesses consumer prices, earnings capacity, and profitablility; i.e., big tobacco, tire manufacturers, McDonald's coffee, and Tylenol.
OSHA would probably not consider a burning building a firefighter's "workplace."
A strict reading of the regulations in 29 CFR 1910 yields that a fire is their only true workplace. The firehouse is merely their residence.
Those who denied that water are guilty of MURDER IMHO!
Fire service ditto!
(and a bump)
The only difference being that a fire department has no control over a firefighter's "workplace," which makes most OSHA regulations irrelevant when it comes to firefighters.
From Fox News Brit Hume and Shepard Smith's program yesterday
8/1/2001
TIMELINE
5:30 a.m.
Helicopter support is requested to extinguish a FULLY CONTAINED FIRE, but they are not availabe until:
10:00 a.m.
And arrive shortly thereafter but ARE NOT PERMITTED to drop water.
12:08 p.m.
DISPATCH REFUSES to allow water from the Chewach BECAUSE OF THE ENDANGERED SPECIES THE FIRE GROWS.
1:15 p.m.
DESPERATE THE CREW REQUESTED AN AIR TANKER which carries its own water.
2:00 p.m.
RANGERS APPROVE the Helicopter AFTER CONSULTING WITH THE FISHERY BIOLOGISTS
3:00 p.m.
NINE HOURS AFTER IT IS FIRST REQUESTED helicopters make their FIRST WATER DROP
3:58 p.m.
Thirty mile FIRE EXPLODES sending smoke 35,000 ft. into the air.
TANKERS ARE DIVERTED. HELICOPTERS ARE GROUNDED
5:25
FOUR FIREFIGHTERS ARE PRONOUNCED DEAD.
That says it all, Spunky. We have had similar situations. Denied borae drops, discing, etc. all because of an endangered species. Homes lost, the habitats destroyed. 'Their' answer, will just take more private property!!! This maddness must be stopped.
Bumping to stop the maddness and save OUR COUNTRY...
I sure hope that their families will sue the living day lights out of the EPA.
I'll be BRUTALLY blunt people... could SOMEONE in the higher Echelons here had a GRIPE with someone on THAT TEAM????? this ALMOST sounds like a MURDER perhaps a Grand jury AIN'T in order here follks??? Lets hear YOUR opinions...
EPA=ESA
"DISPATCH REFUSES..."
At least the 'blame' can be assigned -- with DISPATCH!!!
So far I haven't seen anything about the campers who set the fire. Aren't they primarily responsible?
The local Seattle Times ran an article on this fire yesterday.
Why Thirty Mile Fire raged without water
Review the Implementation of the Northwest Forest Plan
"We did participate throughout the development of the forest plan, confident that the forest plan as presented is a sound strategy for fish. We certainly support the types of activities that are being discussed here as long as they are supported by the acts of local and also the watershed is set up based as a key community plan.
I think there is been a lot of general discussion about fire hazard and forest health, and I think what we want to basically do in for participation is make sure that whatever types of treatments are being proposed in each individual watershed, it is the appropriate type of treatment that those stands need because as Mr. Green mentioned, there are a wide variety of ecological conditions throughout the forest plan area.
We have other types of stands that are driven by wind events and other types of natural disturbance so we are certainly involved and have no problem with the type of treatments that were being discussed here for long-term ecological health."....
"......The diversity of landowner objectives in and of itself leads to the diversity of forest types at the landscape level. Federal forests provide habitat for late-successional species through wilderness areas, parks, late-successional reserves for threatened and endangered species, and other administrative withdrawals. Non-Federal lands, particularly industrial forest lands, support early and mid-successional species conditions. State, county, and many private non-industrial forest lands provide habitat for early and mid-successional species as well, but often have non-timber resource and other value production objectives that retain some older stands.
We support the NWFP but acknowledge that it is not perfect. Some small change could be made within the management agencies, but many larger problems with the plan stem from larger thematic issues. These include a difficult regulatory and planning environment, weak strategic planning, and the need to consider the larger context of global forest issues. Although the Oregon Department of Forestry is a much smaller agency than the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management, and manages a much smaller land base, we believe the Federal agencies can learn from our strategic planning efforts.".....
".....A key feature of adaptive management is risk management. Risk management is essential to balancing environmental, social, and economic values. For example streamside rules in the Oregon Practices Act balance risk to aquatic and riparian species with economic goals (or economic risks). State agency decisionmakers chose a level of risk to species that they could live with.
In contrast, NWFP standards and guidelines and other agency policies such as PACFISH set streamside buffers with virtually zero risk to fish species, regardless of the effects of large buffers to other management objectives. Managing risks requires value-based decisions. We understand that the zero-risk approach is largely a result of lawsuits, but very conservative approaches have been taken in minimizing risks to late-successional species at the expense of other values.
We believe the NWFP should ultimately be amended to allow more adaptive management.".....
ZERO RISK TO FISH!!! What about the 'risk to firefighters'?
ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT may be RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF FOUR FIRE FIGHTERS
Why is the word "may" in that title?
From what I have seen of the lame so called explanations, there is no "may" about it.
"OK, @sshole, then YOU put the f#cking fire out!" "
That is the rational response and that is precisely why this is so obviously the result of a criminal act.
These kids were not told anything about not being able to use whatever water is available.
This ZERO RISK TO FISH stragey means that the planners folks HAD TO KNOW THIS TYPE OF INCIDENT in which people WOULD DIE WOULD HAVE TO OCCUR!!! that is the BRUTAL meaning of that statement!!!! These people are thus. GUILTY OF FIRST DEGREE MURDER!!!!
Firefighters Tom L. Craven, 30, Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18, Devin A Weaver, 21, and Jessica L. Johnson, 19. May they Rest in Peace.
Methow Valley News-Water Delay
"With new details, it appears that the Forest Service crew on the blaze expected a helicopter to drop water as early as 10 a. m. July 10. The chopper was requested at 5:30 a. m. by a hot shot crew that had worked the blaze since soon after midnight, according to dispatch logs.
By the time the helicopter was permitted to dip water from the river, the fire was showing signs of a sleeping giant....."
From the Methow 'link'--
"Simply put: Forest Service wildland fire management policy calls for managers to, "provide first for firefighter and public safety," according to an "action item" in a 2001 review of the 1995 policy.
"Once people are committed to an incident, those resources become the highest value to be protected and receive the highest management considerations," it reads.
But the 1995 Forest Service "record of decision" for inland and anadramous fish impacts, which grew out of the 1994 forest plan, mandate "primary" consideration to fish and fish habitat in fire suppression methods.
The "INFISH" and "PACFISH" rules establish procedures for setting up camps and battling fires near streams, or riparian areas. They also require a review, by "resource advisors" of measures such as withdrawing water from streams to fight fires, or dropping chemical retardant."
The fish first "WHACKOS", whichever 'group' is willing to take the blame(yeah, right), is responsible for the death of these and, I don't know how many others, for playing environmental 'gods and goddesses', IMHO.
Prayer for 'truth'-- bump.
the 1995 Forest Service "record of decision" for inland and anadramous fish impacts, which grew out of the 1994 forest plan, mandate "primary" consideration to fish and fish habitat in fire suppression methods.
um, lessee heah...
Okanogan and Wenatchee
National Forests Headquarters
215 Melody Lane
Wenatchee, WA 98801
these folk and their fish... maybe they could use a few more.
gotta rainbow trout here... only a couple days old.
the mail moves pretty fast. it’s only 95 today.
should be just fine.
yup.
There's one thing I really don't understand about this tragedy. The news reports say that the group of trapped firefighters fled on foot to the river where they attempted to hide from the fire under protective tents. But why didn't the firefighters get IN the river? I mean jump in the river and immerse themselves up to their necks in the water. The river seems like the only place to survive when you're overwhelemed by fire. Were they cut off from the river by the fire? This whole incident sounds like a tragic series of mistakes and misjudgments by the forest service administrators who are responsible for the lives of these young firefighters. It looks like the last mistake may have been not getting in the water.
"the mail moves pretty fast."
I know that you're likely joking, but NEVER use the mail to do anything like that!
" It looks like the last mistake may have been not getting in the water."
I don't know what their last mistake was, but their biggest mistake was believing that the U.S. government would do what was right and proper.
" It looks like the last mistake may have been not getting in the water."
I don't know what their last mistake was, but their biggest mistake was believing that the U.S. government would do what was right and proper.
"We believe the NWFP should ultimately be amended to allow more adaptive management."
Ammended? - NO!! - ENDED!!!!!
Call President Bush,
Demand that he De-list All Species Now.
I know that you're likely joking
incidentally, are you a letter carrier? (g).
of course i’m joking. i wouldn't waste a rotten
fish on the forest service right now.
"incidentally, are you a letter carrier?"
No. - It's just that otherwise harmless pranks become felonies when the mail is involved.
"Prayer for 'truth'-- bump."
Indeed and Amen.
But why didn't the firefighters get IN the river?
According to reports, some firefighters sought shelter on an island in the middle of the river. Others in the middle of a dirt road. The firefighters who died were in a boulder field near the road.
Fire officials have commented that a boulder field would normally be considered a safe place.
otherwise harmless pranks become felonies when the mail is involved
do not commit felonies. definitely a career limiting move.
incidentally, as of this post, hannity and colmes are doing
a segment on the fire. now.
SNIPPITS FROM HANNITY AND COLMES SHOW.
ON THE FIREFIGHTERS WHO DIED BECAUSE OF THE ESA
8/2/2001
Shawn Hannity; "Scott I want to start with you because these men died needlessly here and the more I learn about this the more disgusted I really am as this case goes on. These firefighters at 5:30 in the morning they called for water from a helicopter it wasn't until 3:00 that afternoon as William La Jeunesse just pointed out that they got that water. They had four dispatchers and a supervisor that felt they were not authourized to take water from the river because of the Endangered Species Act. That's why these, thats a good contributing factor to what happened to these men in this case, thats just a fact now.
Scott Stoermer, League/Conservation Voters said: "Shawn in fact this isn't a contributing factor at all. The Endangered Species Act had absolutely nothing to do with the tragic deaths of these four young fire fighters.
Shawn said: "So they needed authorization. Wait a minute, with all due respect they needed authorization."
Scott Stoermer said: "Shawn there is not a single word, provision, or phrase in the Endangered Species Act that would have kept the forest service from going and getting that water from that lake and getting it to the firefighters that need it."
Shawn said: "But it was in the mind, but no, sir your wrong." ..............................................
William La Jeunesse said: "Shawn, what I want to say , this was brought under Section 7 of the Endangered Species Act. There was and amendment to the forest plan in the Pacific Northwest United States that applied to Washington, Oregon, Idaho. Not just this forest and what it says and I am quoting right now " If helicopter operations must take place, quote. "Within a Riperian habitat conservation area,( that is a stream,) AN EXEMPTION MUST BE GRANTED BY A RESOURCE ADVISOR, (thats a biologist,) with the advoidence of adverse effects to listed species as a primary goal."
Hannity said: "So they needed the approval, so my point is correct.
Spunky says:Those inviro whacko nuts will LIE, LIE, LIE all the time.
THANK YOU
FOX NEWS
BRIT HUME
SHEPARD SMITH
HANNITY AND COLMES
AND ESPECIALLY
WILLIAM LA JEUNESSE
FOR BRINGING US THE TRUTH.
First I need to close the tags.
McGavin, you said on another thread, "I'm also hoping that the people in the
fire dispatch unit are terminated and tried for negligent homicide
for the deaths of the firefighters.
See my posting above at #60 from the last episode on Fox News Hannity and Colmes
and especially the law from the ESA that William La Jeunesse quotes.
Why didn't those tabs close the last time.
I'm trying again.
Closesssssss
If this has not worked this time
I GIVE UP
"If helicopter operations must take place, quote. "Within a Riperian habitat conservation area,( that is a stream,) AN EXEMPTION MUST BE GRANTED BY A RESOURCE ADVISOR, (thats a biologist,) with the advoidence of adverse effects to listed species as a primary goal.""
It says in plain English, 'without exception' - "SAVE THE FISH!!!!""
$%^&*(*&^%$*&^%!!!!!
Actually, it says, "without exemption", --SAVE THE FISH!!!!. Obviously, in liberal talk, trying to do right is the same as doing right. KUMBAYA!
I guess I am misssing the Lone Ranger bit. I do not use that handle elsewhere if that is your question.
"." The fire station probably meets every OSHA code. "
ROFLMAO!!
Buddy, you crack me up. We do business inspections for fire safety violations in every business in town once a year. That includes city hall and our very own fire station. I have caught grief on more than one occasion for holding the fire station or a city building to the same standards as we require on Bob's Spoon Emporium.
My response has always been, "ok write me a reprimand and let us see who is right." Or "I would like that in writing."
That usually ends the conversation.
As for OSHA, Texas is not an OSHA state and we are not required to follow their edicts. It seems we follow those standards that the admin wants and ignores the rest.
"At least the 'blame' can be assigned -- with DISPATCH!!!"
I do not know how their system (Incident Command) works but atleast under the models we "work" under, dispatch would not have been the one giving that order.
A brief summory. At the top you have the IC (incident commander) and below him is a tree of people who are responsible for smaller aspects of the operation. You have medical, logistics, resources, staging, information officer...etc all the way down to the guy shlepping the water and grubbing in the ashes. The model theoretically can grow and contract somewhat seamlessly with the size of the incident.
This is the way it is "supposed" to work. In reality it seems we have 4 IC's and utter chaos. We won't go into what the acronym IC can also stand for. To keep it clean let's just say "Ignorant Monica."
We do business inspections for fire safety violations in every business in town once a year.
But that is a completely different issue, isn't it? OSHA standards are for a workplace, while fire codes are there to keep the place from burning to the ground.
I want to be there when a fire inspector walks through a restaurant and completes his report as follows: "No fire code violations. This establishment has gone to great lengths to ventilate the kitchen properly and store any combustible materials in cool, dry places away from open flame. However, the owner of this businesses has been cited for two violations of safe workplace regulations - 1. The tables and chairs in the seating area represent trip hazards for firefighters wandering in a smoke-filled environment, and - 2. Firefighters working in a smoke-filled kitchen may be prone to bumpoing their heads on the pots and pans hanging from above. To mitigate these conditions, it is recommended that the restaurant move all of its kitchen and seating area operations outside the building, so as not to present impediments to firefighters doing their work."
They may well have been in the water but suffocated as the raging fireball consumed all available oxygen.
When we do business inspections, we are looking for items such as:
overloaded extension cords or being used as permanant wiring.
unsecured pressure cylinders such as CO2 bottles
flammable materials under circuit breaker boxes
covers missing on electrical appliances or missing outlet covers
marked exits blocked by rubbish or locked
extinguishers out of date, missing or discharged
To my knowledge, we have never issued a fine for any violation. 99% of the people out there will do the right thing if you will just take a moment and explain why you are asking them to do something and not just try