ADAM NADEL
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NEW YORK
The only spot where Ermila can fit her cot and crib in the one-bedroom apartment she shares with 10 others in East Harlem is in the kitchen. Cockroaches dart along the wall over the bed where her two baby daughters are sleeping in the thick heat of a recent summer morning.
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| SLEEPING IN THE KITCHEN: sleeping in kitchen: Maria Siuhanca and
son, Eber. ADAM NADEL | |
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Yet this is where she finds hope. Ermila - who asked that her last name not be published, out of fear of immigration authorities - is part of a new community of single Mexican mothers trying to improve their lives in the US.
Many women, like Ermila, have crossed the border in recent years, fed up with worsening opportunities in their home country and eager to join an already-transplanted network of encouraging relatives.
While the precise number of such immigrants isn't known, a definite pattern has emerged in several major US cities, including San Antonio and Los Angeles. In New York, Mexicans are the fastest-growing immigrant group, and, by at least one estimate, 60 percent of that population is female.
Had the women stayed in Mexico, marriage may have been a way of life, but here, other priorities, like school and work, take hold. Most of the women are undocumented and work long hours for almost no pay. Some live with extended family, but that network has been overburdened by the number of mothers.
Still, many are sure they're doing the right thing. "Women no longer have faith that things will get better in Mexico," says Robert Smith, a sociology professor at Barnard College, who has been studying Mexican immigrants in New York City since the 1980s. "They see the US as their long-term solution."
Maria Siuhanca, who has a 3-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter, left familiarity in Puebla, a sprawling state in central Mexico. Her parents were corn farmers, and she spent the first 20 years of her life planting and tending to fields. But as her neighbors continued to leave throughout the 1980s, she saw farms deteriorate and stores shut down.
Soon, the only people left in her town were the elderly and women and children. "It's hard to survive. There is no work in Mexico," she says. "The only thing you can do is work on the land."
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| FAMILY TIES: Maria Siuhanca, left, cooks in the kitchen of her
Brooklyn, N.Y., home, with her son Eber and her daughter Yarithza. Ms. Siuhanca,
a single mother, left behind a family farm in Puebla, Mexico. ADAM NADEL/SPECIAL TO THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR | |
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Ms. Siuhanca, who came to Brooklyn in 1987 and is still undocumented, cleans homes when she can for $8 an hour. She usually can find no more than 16 hours of work a week. When she needs extra money, she fills a shopping cart with sodas and sells them to children playing soccer in the park. Other days, she stands over her kitchen table for hours stuffing corn shucks with cornmeal and marinated pork, then hauls a metal pot to the street corner and sells homemade tamales for $1 apiece.
Child support isn't an option for Siuhanca, who doesn't know where her son's father is -other than somewhere in Mexico. Sometimes, if she can't take her son to the local day care, she brings him to her job. Or she doesn't work that day.
As single-wage earners with precarious incomes, finding appropriate housing is daunting, especially as the community swells. The Mexican community in New York City increased by 180 percent in the past decade - from 93,000 in the 1990 census to 261,000 in 2000, says Jeffrey Passel, the principal research associate at The Urban Institute in Washington. According to Emily Rosenbaum, a sociology professor at Fordham University here, 70 percent of Mexicans who rent apartments in the city live in cramped conditions, compared with about 40 percent of other immigrant groups.
While single men crowd together in almost any space, mothers need places where children can sleep at night and do homework during the day. With many relatives' homes already filled to capacity, these women move in with other families or strangers.
Ms. Rosenbaum says about 20 percent of Mexican households include nonrelatives. This is particularly true for women. "There are more single women than their support network can support," says Mr. Smith.
For example, Maria Elena Ranchero, who lives in Brooklyn, wants to live alone with her two children. But after more than a decade in New York, that dream remains unfulfilled. She earns $8 an hour at a clothing factory, but the hours are unsteady. As a result, she can't afford to support her two children and pay the rent. She had rented her back room for $200 of the $535 she pays in monthly rent to a coworker, but the woman did not treat her children well, she says, and she asked her to leave.
Ms. Ranchero was looking for another female roommate last fall, but then her sister's brother-in-law needed a room. "I was scared to live with a man," she says. For the nine months they lived together, she never once left her children there alone, she says, even if she was running across the street for some milk. He left two months ago. And while she says her comfort has been restored, she can't continue for long with the room vacant.
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For most of the single mothers, it is the transience of their lifestyles that they find hardest.
From the day Siuhanca got to the United States, she has bounced between living situations. She lived in her brother's home until she got pregnant. She spent the next years in a convent as a single mother. When she got pregnant again, she and her boyfriend moved into an apartment. When he left her to reunite with his wife and children in Mexico last summer, she began renting out a cot in the hallway to another single mother. Now that roommate has left, and she is searching for another woman to help pay $200 of her $700 monthly rent.
"It's not homeless homelessness," says Martin Needelman, a project director for Brooklyn Legal Services Corp. "It's homelessness of a different kind."
But to raise their children as Americans is worth the social stability they may have left behind in Mexico, says Lydia Ariza, a Mexican mother who has lived in Brooklyn since 1987. Their success in improving the lives of their children depends not on their earning money, but on their children becoming a part of the city's fabric - the health, social, and education systems.
And they are willing to stay to make that happen. If they can't pay their bills or their rent, they are willing to sacrifice their comfort, their privacy, and their stability, says Ms. Ariza. "Each woman lives as she can."
Their success in improving the lives of their children depends not on their earning money, but on their children becoming a part of the city's fabric - the health, social, and education systems.
And who do you suppose pays for these benefits for their children?
ping
Why would an immigrant want to go to NYC???
High taxes, high prices, bad economics...
It actually makes sense to come to Texas at least... oh well....
Welcome back, amigo! =^)
Don't you just love the sob stories? If she had entered this country through legal immigration it would be a different story. The illegals bring these conditions on themselves and their children.
Mexican illegalls are the new slaves in America.
WarHawk42
Why would an immigrant want to go to NYC???
New York provides Child Health Plus to illegal aliens - free medical care for all!
"Back" is relative at this stage... I still have not acquired a computer from my brother.
The operation is codename- Whiner, and he is nicked Rich4Amonth and I go by PLEEEEEAAAAASSSEE!!!
I will give you updates on a Need to Know Basis only.
I read too much Clancy
If a person recieves welfare benefits.... it should be taxed... some on Section-8 housing are given $30,000+ in annual subsidies.... Tax Them!!
You've got it wrong - we are the slaves as we are forced to pay for educating their children and their medical expenses.
Don't you just love the sob stories?
Is that what it's supposed to be? Women who decide not to immigrate legally, get pregnant without husbands and some with married men to collect welfare benefits? One was only working 16 hours a week, that's not exactly hard working or self reliant. It doesn't sound like they're trying to make a very good life for their children.
You've got it wrong - we are the slaves as we are forced to pay for educating their children and their medical expenses.
In that context we are the slaves. Funny how those who want the cheap illegal labor don't want to bear those costs.:) Let the tax payers do it.
WarHawk42
Is that what it's supposed to be? Women who decide not to immigrate legally, get pregnant without husbands and some with married men to collect welfare benefits? One was only working 16 hours a week, that's not exactly hard working or self reliant. It doesn't sound like they're trying to make a very good life for their children.
It sounds like a liberals dream to me.:) Think of how much all the do gooders can do with a story like this. Personally my answer is to send them back to mexico until they can come in the front door instead of the back door.
WarHawk42
In that context we are the slaves. Funny how those who want the cheap illegal labor don't want to bear those costs.:) Let the tax payers do it.
Cost-shifting is great for the bottom line.
Cost-shifting is great for the bottom line.
When you are the shiftor and not the shiftee.:) It's not the best of deals for those of us who do the paying.
WarHawk42
They use their kids to qualify for WIC and foodstamps so they can buy the materials they use to make the goods they sell on the street (sodas, tamalies, etc.). Their kids are a racket to them. They provide them access to the free food and medical they use to run their untaxed and unregulated businesses. If Bush gave them all amnesty tomorrow I wonder how many would willingly submit to the taxation and regulation the rest of us live under.
If they don't like it here, let them go back!
"Even though we spit on your laws, and broke into your country, we are here, feed us, clothe us, give us free medical car, and bus passes."
They use their kids to qualify for WIC and foodstamps so they can buy the materials they use to make the goods they sell on the street (sodas, tamalies, etc.). Their kids are a racket to them.
That is exactly what welfare does. It not only condones using the kids but encourages it. And we wonder why illegitimate kids are so common.
WarHawk42
You forgot Section 8 housing.
"I wonder how many would willingly submit to the taxation and regulation the rest of us live under." The biggest problem would be the rush on the border if Bush granted amnesty. The Republicans are about to piss off most of their voters if they grant amnesty as a way to influence the 'Hispanic' vote.
It's not the best of deals for those of us who do the paying.
And people wonder why the taxes are so high in New York.
Italians off.
WarHawk42
$535
In a place like Harlem? I pay less than that in East Lansing. Why would expensive NYC be a big destination? I don't understand that.
These people are socialist/communist....The have out of wedlock children...such pillars of society...we need this?
$ 535 is extremely inexpensive for NYC - the place must be in one of the worst slums in town.
Second part of your question - there are many welfare benefits which are available to illegals in New York. The state provides health care for the children, free daycare..........
They're everywhere. I'm starting to see more and more of them in the stores down here too.
I'm pro-immigration and also for open borders, but the feds need to end welfare first. Welfare should be a state issue only.
The Republicans are about to piss off most of their voters
Just call them racists and they'll fall in line. Seriously, though, is there anything the Republicans can do to piss off their voters? I somehow doubt that.
and also for open borders
Come on, spare everyone the double-talk. "Open Borders" are, by definition, NO BORDERS.
Does sovereignty mean anything to you?
You can't have open borders and a welfare state.
Welfare laws will never be repealed.
You should read the piece in the WSJ today about some Mexican layabouts that in a Catholic parish in the Bronx. With their energy, they will take over America soon. And I can't say we will be the worse off for it. Cheers.
I generally agree with most of what you post but, OPEN BORDERS? I suggest you think that through.
They're everywhere. I'm starting to see more and more of them in the stores down here too.
Life is interesting when you are the only native-born American walking down the block - coming soon to a neighborhood near you!
There was open borders in the 1800's. If it wasn't open, the Know-Nothings and their temperence buddies would have left my ancestors to starve to death.
LOL. I don't have blocks.
I have thought about it, but I can't support closing off the borders to immigration.
My ancestors came here to the US in the 1860's. That was slightly after the main famine in Ireland. If the Know-Nothings have had their way, my ancestors could very well have starved in West Cork.
I read up on the history, and I see some of the same similarites between the Mexicans and Central Americans as I do with the Irish back then.
I do believe in SOME welfare(workfare)...at the STATE level. The FEDS should stay out of it, and did, until that bastard FDR.....
Actually most of the potato famine Irish did as it were (failure to reproduce due to malnutrition, disease, social disorder, etc), right here in the US. I suspect you are descended from the late 19th century cohort. It is all written up in the Unheavenly City, by Edward Banfield, which dealt with the untractibility of the underclass absent measures not previously visited.
I should add that the current wave of Hispanic emigrants are not reasonably categorized as part of the underclass. No way, Jose.
These Mexicans? They don't seem to be contributing much to society except for children to be educated.
A Surging Mexican Population Creates New Rifts, Rivalries for Hispanic Groups
By Eduardo Porter
The Wall Street Journal, August 7, 2001
NEW YORK -- The Mass at Our Lady of Mercy had ended, and the packed Mother's Day crowd was getting ready to leave when German Flores, a construction worker from Mexico, stepped to the microphone. Speaking in Spanish, he invited everyone in the congregation -- Mexicans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans -- to attend a fiesta at the parish school next door.
"We can all celebrate together," Mr. Flores said.
Yet despite the invitation, the party had a decidedly Mexican slant. Moms were treated to the Mexican birthday song "Las Mañanitas." A mariachi belted out ranchera classics from the Mexican countryside. "Viva México!" cried the master of ceremonies, before adding, "and other countries, too -- why not?"
Clustered by the side of the stage, a small group of Dominicans and Puerto Ricans found themselves bystanders. For the pastor of Our Lady of Mercy, the Rev. Lawrence Quinn, it was a familiar scene. "The Puerto Ricans and Dominicans have their own parties," he said. "There's strong resentment against the Mexicans."
At this Catholic church in the northwest Bronx, an Irish congregation long ago gave way to Puerto Rican worshipers. The Puerto Ricans adjusted years ago to a new wave of Dominicans. Now Mexican immigrants have arrived, and the ensuing friction in this parish affords a vivid look at an important reality of the new American population: The nation's Hispanic communities are not a cohesive unit. Often, they are united by little more than Spanish and a Census Bureau definition.
The New Frontier
Powered by immigration and high birth rates, the Mexican population in the U.S. swelled by more than seven million during the 1990s, to some 20.5 million, and Latinos of Mexican origin are spreading beyond their traditional base in the Southwest. New York City, which attracted masses of Puerto Ricans in the 1940s and Dominicans in the '60s, is the latest frontier for the big Mexican wave. According to new census data, the number of Mexicans in the city more than tripled during the past decade to 187,000. Meanwhile, the ranks of Dominicans grew 22% to 407,000, and the Puerto Rican population shrank more than 8% to 789,000.
Catholic priests have been among the first to see the changes. From the Rev. John Grange, puttering about St. Jerome in the South Bronx in a T-shirt decorated with the image of Zapatista guerrilla leader Subcommander Marcos, to the Rev. Francis Skelly at St. Cecilia in East Harlem, many priests now serve mainly Mexican congregations. "I baptize Mexicans and bury Puerto Ricans," says Father Skelly. "That shows the future of this parish."
Located near the leafy campus of Fordham University, Our Lady of Mercy sits in a neighborhood that remains predominantly Caribbean. A few Mexicans sell flowers and mangos out of grocery carts on Fordham Road, but otherwise their presence isn't obvious.
Making Their Mark
Yet at the church itself, an aging hulk of poured concrete on Marion Avenue, it's clear that the Mexicans have arrived. On a small plot out front, a glass-encased statue of the Virgin of Guadalupe stands atop a stone rendition of Mount Tepeyac. That's where legend has it that the virgin appeared to the Indian man Juan Diego in the 16th century, setting the stage for the evangelization of Mexico.
Mexicans, barely a presence 10 years ago, today make up nearly a third of the worshipers at Sunday Mass. And because the Mexicans are heavily involved in church activities, they have become the most prominent group in Father Quinn's congregation.
"If the Mexicans arrived last, they should adapt to the others," says Elsie Aponte, a 78-year-old Puerto Rican leader within the church who has worshiped at Our Lady of Mercy for more than 25 years. "They act as if they were the only ones here."
Pedro Flores, 34 years old, panting and sweating after a game of basketball with a group of fellow Mexican men in the school gym, says the old guard at the church has overreacted. "We're growing and they're afraid," he says. "They don't understand we're not here to shove them out."
Their turf battle manifests itself in subtle ways, with Father Quinn frequently thrust into the role of peacemaker. Along the way, the 56-year-old priest has learned something his Irish ancestors discovered long ago: "The newest arrival is always looked down upon."
After Mass, Father Quinn can often be found loitering near the shrine, smoking a Newport and listening to congregants complain about each other. Recently, a Dominican woman griped that the church's Mexican ballet troupe had taken over the school auditorium, bumping out her youth group, the Daughters of Mary. A Puerto Rican man questioned what the Mexicans were doing with all the money they had taken in at their fund-raising parties. And a group of Puerto Rican and Dominican women was upset that a group of Mexicans peddled tacos at a church retreat when the Puerto Ricans were already selling plates of chicken and rice.
Ready Response
Certain Puerto Ricans, who revere the Virgin of Providence, and Dominicans, who worship Our Lady of Altagracia, are still miffed about the Guadalupan shrine built two years ago. Father Quinn says some Puerto Ricans ask why he doesn't just rename the church and give it to the Mexicans. By now he has his retort down pat: "Before they built the shrine, this was an ugly and barren plot where cats and dogs did their thing."
Two years ago, Father Quinn let Pedro Flores take charge of the Easter celebration, and he and his fellow Mexicans quickly expanded the festivities. Mr. Flores enlivened the action in the Good Friday procession, which re-enacts Jesus' journey to Calvary. As the procession wound its way up 187th Street to Valentine Avenue, some spectators, accustomed to a milder display, winced at the extra oomph the Mexicans put into whipping Christ and the thieves.
Mr. Flores says the celebration is much improved. "Before," he says, "it was very old-fashioned." But Ramon Barreto, a Puerto Rican who ran the procession for the previous six years, argues that it was better in his day. "People say it's too long and ask me why I left it to them," he says.
Father Quinn has seen such bickering before -- when the Dominicans first came to Our Lady of Mercy. Over the years, the pastor has calmed several Puerto Rican fathers who were irate because their daughters were marrying Dominican men. And he says that Puerto Ricans still tend to cast Dominicans as dunces in their jokes. But all in all, he adds, "Puerto Ricans and Dominicans gelled very well," perhaps because of their common Caribbean heritage.
The Mexicans -- mostly immigrants from the impoverished Mixteca region in the south-central state of Puebla -- are having a harder time fitting in. "They stick together and don't mingle," says Father Quinn. They have formed their own church group, the Guadalupan Committee, and have shunned church groups run by the Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, such as the Charismatic Renewal and the Legion of Mary.
Many of the Mexicans don't speak English, and they tend to be poorer than their Caribbean neighbors, who have begun climbing into the middle class. When the collection basket is passed on Sundays at Our Lady of Mercy -- a church so wanting that Father Quinn keeps the holy water in a Tropicana orange-juice jug -- some Puerto Ricans and Dominicans grumble that the Mexicans aren't giving their share.
The Mexicans contribute in other ways, however. Last summer, they volunteered to paint the church, and most Saturdays, a brigade of men dangled from the roof, paint brushes in hand, working on the facade. Every so often, a Puerto Rican critic passed by and pointed out a spot they had missed.
From the pulpit one Sunday, the Rev. John Rueda, a Colombian priest who has served under Father Quinn since the early 1990s, asked the crowd to give the Mexican painters a round of applause. Then he went on to scold the Puerto Ricans and Dominicans for not doing their share.
The reaction was fierce, with a stream of Puerto Ricans and Dominicans filing in to the parish office to complain to Father Quinn. Elsie Aponte was among those who felt slighted. "If you have five children, you can't say that the last one is the only one," she says. "That means disdaining the others."
Father Quinn never trained to be a diplomat. After ordination in 1971, the priest reluctantly went to Ponce, Puerto Rico, where the New York archdiocese had sent priests since the 1950s to train them to minister to the Hispanic community. "I didn't even want to learn Spanish," he says. But one Sunday, the budding 26-year-old clergyman was dispatched to Espinal, a hamlet in the northwest corner of the island, where he was put before 400 people in a tent waiting to hear Mass. Until then, he says, he was barely able to string together a sentence in Spanish. But suddenly, he recalls, "I gave a homily in perfect Spanish for 20 minutes." It was, says Father Quinn, "a miracle."
He has sought out Hispanic parishes ever since. "If the Lord gives me the gift of speaking the language to preach His word, what can I do? Say no?"
Keeping the Lid On
To keep the peace at Our Lady of Mercy, Father Quinn keeps firm control. In most churches, the priest will consult a group of parishioners, known as the Parish Council, to decide what activities the congregation should undertake. But Father Quinn fears that a council at Our Lady of Mercy would simply degenerate into a forum for feuding. "Those that want a Parish Council are other Hispanics that want to control the Mexicans," he says.
Though Father Quinn has compassion for the Mexicans, they have also irked him at times. Just a few weeks ago, the pastor gave German Flores a blank check so he and a group of other Mexicans could buy building materials to fix the church roof. But along with supplies for the roof, they also bought hundreds of pounds of concrete, sand and gravel to fix the floor in the basement -- a good place for their children to play soccer in the winter. The bill from Home Depot was $16,000. Father Quinn says he was so mad, "I couldn't even look at" Mr. Flores.
Mr. Flores apologized, conceding his mistake, and they both burst into tears and hugged.
In time, Father Quinn hopes, others will come to embrace the Mexicans. In fact, the priest says that in the Virgin of Guadalupe, he sees a hopeful sign that the different communities will come together. Several Puerto Rican women have begun kneeling before her, and Dominican cab drivers have taken to crossing themselves before the shrine. And last month, when Mexicans began making repairs on the church roof, a few Dominicans and Puerto Ricans joined in.
If the Know-Nothings have had their way, my ancestors could very well have starved in West Cork.
The Americans could have sent them food instead so they wouldn't starve.
I'm not Catholic, but those Mexicans in that parish are gonna have kids that will do just fine, and be productive citizens of whom we can all be proud. They have the right stuff.
1863 from West Cork - Landed in NYC, one branch moved to Upstate New York and the other moved to Detroit.
The good old grapevine. They know someone who knows someone who's there. Once they get there,they're stuck there,since they can't,or won't accumulate enough savings to get to somewhere else where the cost of living is lower.And selling tamales to passers by can be a pretty good source of cash,especially if she's dodging sales taxes and health regs,as I would guess,so just maybe she likes it where she is.
And then there would be no railroads in the Eastern US.
The trick was to get out of the city. Cities were death traps for the poor until sanitation came in around 1890. The single greatest leap in the standard of living of mankind was from 1890 to 1900 among lower income residents of America's larger cities (sanitation, electricity, etc).
I'm not Catholic, but those Mexicans in that parish are gonna have kids that will do just fine, and be productive citizens of whom we can all be proud. They have the right stuff.
Because of their much lower education levels, Mexican immigrants earn significantly less than natives on average. This results in lower average tax payments and heavier use of means-tested programs. Based on estimates developed by the National Academy of Sciences for immigrants by age and education at arrival, the lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a negative $55,200.
• Although they comprise 4.2 percent of the nation’s total population, Mexican immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under 18) account for 10.2 percent of all persons in poverty and 12.5 percent of those without health insurance. Even among Mexican immigrant families that have lived in United States for more than 20 years, almost all of whom are legal residents, more than half live in or near poverty and one-third are uninsured
• Even after welfare reform, an estimated 34 percent of households headed by legal Mexican immigrants and 25 percent headed by illegal Mexican immigrants used at least one major welfare program, in contrast to 15 percent of native households. Mexican immigrants who have lived in the United States for more than 20 years, almost all of whom are legal residents, still have double the welfare use rate of natives.
• Mexican immigration acts as a subsidy to businesses that employ unskilled workers, holding down labor costs while taxpayers pick up the costs of providing services to a much larger poor and low-income population.
• The lower educational attainment of Mexican immigrants appears to persist across the generations. The high school dropout rates of native-born Mexican-Americans (both second and third generation) are two and a half times that of other natives.
It seems that we are importing a new underclass.
The good old grapevine. They know someone who knows someone who's there. Once they get there,they're stuck there,since they can't,or won't accumulate enough savings to get to somewhere else where the cost of living is lower.And selling tamales to passers by can be a pretty good source of cash,especially if she's dodging sales taxes and health regs,as I would guess,so just maybe she likes it where she is.
The grapevine was the case with my ancestors as well. They were farmers, and in Upstate NY, they were sharecroppers. A few learned how to read(I don't know if they spoke English or Gaelic). And they worked their way out of poverty. They wern't rich, but got by.
The trick was to get out of the city
Still is.
You don't really understand what class truly is, and what upward mobility is. It is only loosely tied to the current income of immigrants. Milton Friedman's parents (the Nobel prize winning economist) worked in Lower Eastside Manhattan sweatshops. I doubt they paid any taxes.
I don't have blocks
You haven't heard? Your property is gonna be subdivided so that we can build Section 8 housing.
"The single greatest leap in the standard of living of mankind was from 1890 to 1900." I think the introduction of the potato(e) to Europe may rival that leap.
You should do some research of native born Hispanics. You will find that their rate of upward mobility exceeds that of the previous record of Eastern Europeans. True it does not match that of the Jews, or the Scotch, or more recently, the Greeks or the Asian Indians, but that is a high hurdle indeed.
Obtaining a Senate seat wouldn't be so easy for the Kennedy's either. My ancestors were Irish too, but they went through Ellis Island and were checked for TB and other diseases. The illegals today have a choice to obey our immigration laws and go through the process but they find the laws inconvenient so ignore them. Many Mexicans are immigrating legally just like other immigrants did but they are the ones who have some respect for this country's laws. I believe in some immigration, but in my part of the country, illegal immigration is having some very serious effects.
I notice that you are not refuting any of the statistics that I provided. You seem to be living in some kind of dreamland.
No, I challenge your stats as far as overall Hispanic upward mobility goes vis a vis previous immigrant groups. But it deserves another conversation sometime, with links to data from both of us.
You should do some research of native born Hispanics. You will find that their rate of upward mobility exceeds that of the previous record of Eastern Europeans. True it does not match that of the Jews, or the Scotch, or more recently, the Greeks or the Asian Indians, but that is a high hurdle indeed.
Which group has shown upward mobility - Mexicans? Dominicans? Puerto Ricans?
It's different in Michigan I think. The Mexicans cleaned up Southwest Detroit. There is still crime there, but it's not like the gang warfare there in the 80's and early 90's.
Most of them are out in West Michigan around the Grand Rapids and Holland areas, and some are in Lansing. From everything I've heard and have seen here(I live near Lansing), they are very productive members of society, at least in Michigan.
I think it's a CITY issue more than anything else.
If you read the WSJ article, PR and Dominicans seems to be moving on up in that parish. Of course we all know that it is the Cubans and Jamaicans that have really kicked butt. Salvadoreans seem to be having a tougher time. Haitians have also been awesome so far, but I guess they aren't Hispanic. Mexicans are all over the map, but have historically done just fine overall.
Which group has shown upward mobility - Mexicans? Dominicans? Puerto Ricans
"Your property is gonna be subdivided so that we can build Section 8 housing." Actually, I do sometimes worry about some of the wetland and wildlife regulations. Contrary to what you may think, the environmental laws and their enforcement here are almost oppressive.(this is a North American bird 'flyway' area) A friend of mine was jailed when a satellite photo indicated that he had filled in a ditch on his property. He knew what he was doing too, one wheelbarrel of dirt each week for 3-4 years, still caught. The quaint little town I grew up in about fifteen miles away has already been abandoned due to section 8 housing.
The groups which I mentioned have the highest rates of welfare dependency in New York. I believe that the Dominicans are the winners in every category.
A friend of mine was jailed when a satellite photo indicated that he had filled in a ditch on his property. He knew what he was doing too, one wheelbarrel of dirt each week for 3-4 years, still caught.
Big Brother in action!
You're forgetting that when the Irish and other immigrants came here there wasn't welfare, medicaid, WIC, education and other social services supported by taxation. The illegals nowadays aren't so much suppressing wages or taking jobs as they are increasing the tax burdens on Americans and the government's authority over the people.
Mexico isn't going to 'become like America'. America is going to become like Mexico. Within 50 years America may very well become a land of high taxes, low wages, despotic government and a dejected populace. Where will the illegals be then? My guess is they'll be even worse off than they were in their own countries. At least in their countries the poor aren't consolidated and treated like chattel as they will be in America's future. 'Working prisons' are a model for the future of America's chronic poor. Incarceration and work blended together for 21st century slavery. America has the technology and infrastructure to do just that as taxes rise, wages fall, living standards deteriorate and freedom is confiscated. And when that happens the illegals and their descendents will be in the same place in society. Only society will be far more worse, thanks in most part to their loyalty to the liberals and globalists bringing feudalism to America.
As crappy as Mexico's government is do they come over the border to mount a resistance to it, or to run drugs, welfare scams and work illegal jobs? Their tolerance for tyranny and repression is renowned among despots. Imo, that's why they're welcomed with open arms by the democrats. Mexicans have a tradition of corruption, despotism and veritible serfdom. Imo, they will most certainly tolerate it here as long as it pays well. When it doesn't well, as in their own countries, it will be too late for them to do anything about it and they'll just shrug and accept it. What a way to F-up a country.
"There was open borders in the 1800's."
Very true.
That's why Mexico lost Texas.
"My ancestors came here to the US in the 1860's. That was slightly after the main famine in Ireland."
Same here. But they came here legally, didn't they? And they came in such numbers that they were assimilable.
My grandfather came over from Ireland from Cork....they went through Ellis Island and had health screening, if they were no fit they were sent back....They did not run to the welfare office with a out of welock ancor baby,,,THEY WORKED AND BECAME CITIZENS. Besides that ou should be blaming England and the Catholic Church (that did not help) while the people of Ireland starved. There was lots of food but the Irish could not get it and the Church had money.
Same here. But they came here legally, didn't they?
There were no immigration laws, but the Know-nothings were pushing for laws, specifically targeted at the Irish. That's also WHY the Irish voted democrat as a bloc until really around the time of Reagan.
And they came in such numbers that they were assimilable.
At least 2 million came.
re: 42
I can attest to the complete truth of this.
Upon hearing of the Gore mole in the Bush campaign that provided the videotaped debate practice, my Puerto Rican mother-in-law immediately said: "She must be a Mexican."
And she says it's those Cubans and Dominicans causing all the crime, etc., back in P.R.
Also being born and raised in Puerto Rico, she calls Puerto Ricans in NYC "Newyoricans."
She's a regular little Archiia Bunkero. :)
I notice that you are not refuting any of the statistics that I provided.
I will.
Source the $55k number that was $50k last week.
"Milton Friedman's parents (the Nobel prize winning economist) worked in Lower Eastside Manhattan sweatshops. I doubt they paid any taxes"
I bet your hero's parents would pay plenty of taxes now. After all Milton invented payroll withholding, one of the most evil inventions of all time.
My Scottish-Irish ancestors (at least on one side of the family, the other is FFV) came here about the same time as yours (mine were a little earlier). But when they came, they came to be Americans. Ask any illegal/immigrant what nation he belongs to. Back then, the answer would be "I am an American" (though doubtless in a thick accent). Today, it is "I am Mexican," in Spanish...
"You should do some research of native born Hispanics. You will find that their rate of upward mobility exceeds that of the previous record of Eastern Europeans"
Do you have a source for this? I would be very interested in reading the research.
"But when they came, they came to be Americans. Ask any illegal/immigrant what nation he belongs to. Back then, the answer would be "I am an American" (though doubtless in a thick accent). Today, it is "I am Mexican," in Spanish..."
I have never heard a Mexican who has come to the US in the last 10 years say they were proud to be an American, I have never heard anyone on Spanish television, Univision or Telemundo say they were proud to be a part of the United States and I have not met a recent legal or illegal immigrant say that they were going to vote Republican.
These people are socialist/communist....The have out of wedlock children...such pillars of society...we need this?
No!
Mexican illegals are the new slaves in America.
WarHawk42
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I call them the new imported serf class for the country club Republicans and
for industry.
New serfs for the lazy bastards who are too lazy to trim their own lawn and
bushes. And need cheap domestic help like Illbay who rhapsodizes about his
illegal alien housekeeper's homemade tortillas as he lives in his gated
community
I have never heard a Mexican who has come to the US in the last 10 years say they were proud to be an American, I have never heard anyone on Spanish television, Univision or Telemundo say they were proud to be a part of the United States and I have not met a recent legal or illegal immigrant say that they were going to vote Republican.
Because for them the United States is just a country of convenience. A nice place to live in and send money back home to Mexico etc. AND get on various welfare programs.
All they care about is the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ they can make here.
They don't give a sh!t about democratic principles.
Democracy does not translate into their brains. NOT AFTER living most of their
lives in a 3rd world nation.
Glad you posted this. I read it in the WSJ hard copy yesterday!
Such "slaves" have been part of the American cultural landscape from the beginning. From indentured servitude to mass numbers of factory workers (not to mention ACTUAL slaves) the "working class" has been the backbone of our nation.
Of course, the difference is that in the "old world" one could NEVER aspire to rise above one's "station." Serfs were bound to the land, they and their children and their children's children.
Here in America, however, one might aspire to greater things for one's self, and one's posterity. "Horatio Alger" is an icon in our culture.
Of course, if you want to insult the immigrants who come here, but implying that, unlike immigrants in generations past, they have no hope because they have no ability, you're free to do so. But you'd be wrong.
And they are willing to stay to make that happen.
And the US citizens who have lived in Sheepleville for so long, and voted for traitorous politicians -- knowingly and unknowingly, will live to see their world stomped into the mire by these women's children.
They needed cannon fodder and the Catholic Church did not care.
Is this what faith based religion will do? Let people steal for their own projects...Then everyone will hug and say t is ok, you took it without permission, and built what you wanted....good communist.
Did they sneak across the border and get on welfare....stupid?
I feel so sorry for the lady who got pregnant by a married man. She is truly a victim. How on earth could she have avoided that tragedy? She simply had to have unprotected intercourse with another woman's husband. It is her right. After all, isn't that what America is all about? Now when us taxpayers pick up the tab, I can breathe easier knowing she has been rescued from such a desperate situation over which she had absolutely no control.
There. See how easy it is think like a RINO?
I would suggest that we offer free birth control for illegal aliens but that would be construed as racist.
Your posts are mostly blather, jingoistic babble. Many will (succeed) but as much of the data comes in about this wave of immigration we find alot to worry about, illiteracy, crime, single parent families which in turn leads to more of the preceeding and so it goes. Perhaps you mean well, but I think mostly you are a two-bit Machievelli with an eye to propound Bush's sure fire failure known as the "Hispanic Strategy." Read the "Bell Curve."
Kudos to you for your last reply.
Yeah this torie should cease with the cliches along with the others, they and what they propound are failures. If Mexican trucks is part of the "Hispanic Strategy" then my Yellow Lab should sit in on cabinet meetings and give advice. Unless there are lobbyists with buckets of cash descending on Capitol Hill it has little upside potential for the GOP and they should spend little time playing the anti-Hispanic race card and other cute little tricks of the game. All this gamesmanship for the LaRaza vote is a killer towards Bush's base, and even I can see that the Mexican power elite within this country are conducting a bidding war that is a sure fire political loser for those that attend.
End Federal Welfare and all those programs by Fascist Delano Roosevelt and Lyndon Baines Jackass.
You should do some research of native born Hispanics.
I think you're right about the native born Hispanics, but those aren't immigrants from Mexico. Where I live there was a large population of Hispanics who were here before Mexico became independent from Spain and before this area was the US. Also there was a fairly large group of refugees who came during and after the Mexican Revolution. This group of people wouldn't be considered immigrants, they speak English well, they are the Conservative Hispanics with strong family and religious values and they tend to value education and are successful. They shouldn't be confused with the immigrants who came illegaly who often live in the housing projects and have a very high illegitimate birth rate and drop-out rate.
Your posts are mostly blather, jingoistic babble. Many will (succeed) but as much of the data comes in about this wave of immigration we find alot to worry about, illiteracy, crime, single parent families which in turn leads to more of the preceeding and so it goes. Perhaps you mean well, but I think mostly you are a two-bit Machievelli with an eye to propound Bush's sure fire failure known as the "Hispanic Strategy." Read the "Bell Curve." *******************************
Bump!
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