We have had a fair amount of discussion on the subject of the RAPTURE and THE SECOND COMING . There is a lot of confusion about a number of things. I hope to help bring some understanding with this post.

The first is the use of Greek words related to His COMING. There are 3 very important ones. PAROUSA This word is probably the most frequently used of the three. It means to be near or alongside. Our English word presence involves all that it means. It means not only the presence but the act by which Presence is brought about by i.e. "COMING"

It is used frequently of the Rapture of the Church and can be found clearly in the following references

I Cor 15:23
But every man in his ow! n order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming ?

1 Thess 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

This word is also used in a number of places where the Return of Christ to the EARTH with His church.

Matt 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matt 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matt 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

II Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Peter 3:12-13
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What can we learn from all of this ? Did you notice how this word was used ? It had a common purpose ? The answers will be in the next post which will be on the use of the word APOKALUPSIS . THINK AND PRAY.

Be blessed

don

Welcome to the continued thread

Bump

BUMP for continued discussion

You have me interested...

The Rapture is clearly stated in the Bible in these verses: Song of Solomon 2:10-13 (the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to the Church in type), 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1 Thess. 4:15-17, John 11:25-26. You don't need Greek words. Most of problems that surround the Rapture regard timing because it is assumed there is only ONE Rapture. In the Bible, there are SEVEN. #1-Enoch (Gen. 5:24), #2-Moses body (Deut. 34:5-6. The Lord takes Moses' body to make him one of the two witnesses in Rev. 11.) #3-Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) #4-Old Testament Saints when Jesus Christ was resurrected (Matt. 27:50-53). #5-Born Again Christians, i.e., the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 15:51-52 & 1 Thess. 4:15-17.) #6-Rapture of the Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:12) #7-Tribulation Saints (Rev. 14:15-16 & Matt. 24: 29-31). You may notice that Raptures #5 and #7 are always confused to be the same event, but they are not and have never been.

Your suggestion that there will be 2 raptures at Christs coming is totally unscriptural. There is one coming and one rapture and neither you nor anyone else can provide any clear scriptures to teach anything to the contrary.

As I understand, there are two definate aspects to the perousia that most lump in as one event.

One would be Christ's return FOR his Church. This is where the saints meet Him in the air.

The second part is when Christ returns WITH his saints.

IMO, using that model eliminates confusion with apparently contradictory scriptures, but still will not satisfy a few who have their minds made up on every Biblical topic and will never learn anything new.

(Kind of fascinating that nearly everyone will admit to having less than perfect, complete knowlege of the Bible, yet we all know people who will never, ever consider someting different than what they already firmly believe.)

You are entitled to your opinion however there isn't even one verse in the entire bible which clearly teaches a 2-part return of Christ.
However there are a lot of verses which teach that there is one coming and that the coming for the saints and the return to judge the earth will be on the same day. Matthew 24 places the rapture after the tribulation. Thessalonians uses the phrases 'coming' and 'Day of the Lord' interchangably indicating one event. Luke 17 teaches that Jesus for His saonts and His return for judgement will be on the same day

there isn't even one verse in the entire bible which clearly teaches a 2-part return of Christ.

I think if you look closlely at the prepositions used you will think twice about what you have said.

Maybe your keyword is "clearly". Considering how many topics are debated by Christians today, how many "clear" teachings are there? Dispensationalism is clear to some, heresy to others. Trinity is clear to some, paganistic to others. Why do Christians worship on Easter and Christmas when those two holidays are "clearly" pagan in name and/or origin? Why is there debate over whether or not the 10 Commandment apply?

How many recorded times did Peter deny Jesus in the Gospels?

Sometimes getting hung up on what is "clearly" stated is a cop out for study and understanding.

Care to CLEARLY explain the following:

sunteleia
parousia
apostasia
apokalupsis
telos?

Does Christ set foot on the Earth when he comes back to gather the saints together?

In your opinion, is the resurrection of Isreal (and others) the same event or a co-event to the 'dead in christ shall rise first...' as mentioned in Thessalonians?

IMO, the Bible CLEARY differentiates between a time when Christian believers are changed, made immortal, taken up in the air, ect, and a time when everyone remaining is resurrected.

In the Epistles, Christ comes back FOR his church, in Revelatin he comes back WITH his church.

Bottom line is that only time will tell. Peter and Paul both thought that they'd live to see Christ's return in their lifetimes. So have countless others who lived and died before us. Maybe it will happen today, maybe hundreds of years from now.

From the previous thread: I'm sure many of the other calvinists don't agree with my pre-millenialism but I feel I can defend my beliefs from scripture so that doesen't worry me. I happen to find end - times very interesting and have spent some considerable time studying it. I hadn't noticed that this thread was still active. I tend toward mid-trib myself. But whatever God decided is just fine with me. As I recall, doc once told me he is somewhere in the amillenial camp and I think Jerry and Uriel are somewhere in the pre-trib/mid-trib camp but don't quote me. I might be wrong. But that's what I recall.

I'm not sure there is among Calvinists any certain stand on the Millennium or the Rapture. I don't think that Calvin had views on this that we could easily categorize into a modern classification. He didn't even write a commentary on Revelation. A restraint on his part that seems very wise to me since Revelation is unfulfilled prophecy whose real meaning will only become clear at the end of time, something I believe the Lord provided to hold the Elect in their faith and to gather the last of His flock. I suspect Calvin did not see those circumstances indicated in his own time (though many less sound Christians did) and so he refrained from teaching on the subject. Yet another indication of his general reticence and soundness. I wish I had even a fraction of it.

How many recorded times did Peter deny Jesus in the Gospels?

We know it was 3 times because that is what Jesus said.

Does Christ set foot on the Earth when he comes back to gather the saints together?

The saints are caught up to meet Christ in the air but He then continues His ascent with His saints back to earth.

I don't disagree with you that there are two resurrections. I do disagree with the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture and many other dispensational doctrines

Eagle, you're absolutely correct. There is no such thing as a two-part return of Christ. He comes again one time. My point was to point out the 7 Raptures in the Bible. If you could explain how you got 2 Second Comings out of that, please tell me and I'll clarify.

How many recorded times did Peter deny Jesus in the Gospels? THREE CLEAR TIMES. JESUS SAID PETE WOULD DENY HIM 'THRICE' (JN.13:38 & MATT.26:34). THOSE 3 TIMES ARE RECORDED IN SUCCESSION IN JOHN 18:15-18, 25-27. Care to CLEARLY explain the following: sunteleia parousia apostasia apokalupsis telos? NOT REALLY SINCE I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE IDEA THAT ONE MUST KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT A DEAD LANGUAGE IN ORDER TO READ HIS OR HER BIBLE; HOWEVER, MOST OF THE WORDS YOU USED ABOVE DEAL WITH END TIMES. TELOS IS WHERE WE GET OUR WORD TELEPHONE AND HAS TO DO WITH THE END OF OF SOMETHING. APOSTASIA IS EASY TO LOCATE BECAUSE WE GET OUR WORD APOSTASY FROM IT--A TRANSLITERATION BASICALLY. APOKALUPSIS IS ALSO SIMPLY TO LOCATE BECAUSE IT TRANSLITERATES TO APOCALYPSE. PAROUSIA RELATES TO THE SECOND COMING AND IS TRANSLATED INTO "COMING" IN 1THESS.4:15. (WE KNOW THERE ARE NO WORDS ANYWHERE THAT ARE TRANSLATED THE SAME EVERYTIME.) Does Christ set foot on the Earth when he comes back to gather the saints together? YES. MT. OF OLIVES IS THAT MOUNTAIN AND HE TAKES A PATH UP TO MT. SINAI. In your opinion, is the resurrection of Isreal (and others) the same event or a co-event to the 'dead in christ shall rise first...' as mentioned in Thessalonians? OH NO. NOT AT ALL THAT SAME EVENT. IMO, the Bible CLEARY differentiates between a time when Christian believers are changed, made immortal, taken up in the air, ect, and a time when everyone remaining is resurrected. YESIREE. In the Epistles, Christ comes back FOR his church, in Revelatin he comes back WITH his church. YES.

Luke 17:33-37

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

body...

4983 soma {so'-mah}
from 4982; TDNT - 7:1024,1140; n n
AV - body 144, bodily 1, slave 1; 146

1) the body both of men or animals
1a) a dead body or corpse
1b) the living body
1b1) of animals
2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
3) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one
society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
3a) so in the NT of the church
4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

Matthew 24:26-31

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

carcase...

4430 ptoma {pto'-mah}
from the alternate of 4098; TDNT - 6:166,846; n n
AV - dead body 3, carcase 1, corpse 1; 5

1) a fall, downfall
1a) metaph. a failure, defeat, calamity
1b) an error, lapse into sin
2) that which has fallen
2a) the fallen body of one dead or slain, a corpse, a carcase

Revelation 11:7-15

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies [#4430, see above] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies [#4430, see above] three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Isaiah 3:8-9 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.
The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

Jeremiah 23:14-15 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

Heart [spiritual condition] of the earth:

Revelation 13:8-12

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

And now for those questions

• 1. What can we learn from all of this ? What you can learn is up to you. There is a lot of information in that post all you need to do is THINK.
  
  
• 2. Did you notice how this word was used ? Its usage was in a general and not specific sense If you take the time to notice it was used in both RAPTURE and SECOND COMING related verses.
  
  
• 3. It had a common purpose ? Yes it did. To emphasize the BODILY PRESENCE of Christ. From this we can note still another important point. HE MUST BE ALIVE to have this bodily presence.

Now for this word APOKALUPSIS ( apokalupsis ) It has a wide use in the Bible. For it occurs 18 times as a noun and 26 tines as a verb. It is derived from two words [apo] apo and [kalupto]. kalupto has the meaning to cover, or to veil and with the prefix [apo] to uncover or to unveil hence the meaning to reveal

In examining the usage we can find a number of instances where it is used of the SECOND COMING of CHRIST.

I Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

II Thess 1:7-8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Luke 17:29-30
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

However if we search we will find other passages where it is used in reference of Christ coming in the air for His Church.

I Cor 1:7-8
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [revelation] of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I Peter 1:6-7
Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Well there it is. A couple questions though

• 1. Is or have you noticed Scripture to support TWO distinct different events in the return of Christ ?

• 2. What has been the emphasis of all of the usage of this word ?

• 3. Again what have you been able to gleam from this post ?

Be blessed

don 

Here's a simple challenge for you:

Go to each gospel and write down Peter's denials in light of who, what, where, when.

This is a matter of what does the Bible REALLY say, not what do we think it says.

Please do this, it will be worth your while.

In your post 10 you ask a very important question

"Does Christ set foot on the Earth when he comes back to gather the saints together?

However may I please add another

"Where does He and His saints GO after being gathered up in the air ?

Really only two answers to that question "EARTH" or "HEAVEN"

The real importance of all of this is the answers to these questions concerning the RAPTURE.

For in those Scriptures that teach about His Second Coming they state " it is a phyiscal return to the Earth its self wherein His feet and body touch the Earth. If this DOES NOT happen during the discription of the RAPTURE i.e. gathering up of the ekkeleesia, The true body of Christ Then it must happen in the event Where He comes in Glory and Judgment from heaven with His saints.

This beyond a doubt would prove that there ARE two seperate events The Rapture and Second coming.

Just a thought. Where is Jesus coming from when He returns with His Saints ? The air or heaven ?

be blessed

don

Perhaps instead of reading what a critic of Dispensationalism writes it would be better to look at what it really is. While I don't agree with all of Dispensationalist doctrine (I do believe the Holy Spirit manifests Himself through the gifts of the Spirit, even today, whereas Dispensationalists do not), I have found it to be an invaluable tool for understanding seemingly disparate and apparently contradictory passages in scripture. In other words, I use Dispensationalism as a means to better understand scripture, not necessarily as a way to live my life.

For a closer look, click the links below. (And yes, I am a "Pre-Tribber.")

The Basics of Understanding the Bible
Israel's Kingdom Gospel and Our Grace Gospel

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