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Some Foresee a Sea Change in Attitudes on Freedoms
New York Times ^ | Saturday, September 15, 2001 | ROBIN TONER

Posted on 09/14/2001 9:37:50 PM PDT by JohnHuang2

WASHINGTON, Sept. 14 — The political pressure to do something — anything — to ensure that there is never a repeat of this week's terrorist attacks is immense on Capitol Hill. And civil liberties advocates are watching with quiet concern.

Across the political spectrum, lawmakers are arguing that the United States has entered a new and more dangerous era that demands heightened security measures, including armed guards on commercial airliners and greater surveillance powers for federal agents.

Senator Trent Lott, the Republican leader, declared the day after the attacks: "When you are at war, civil liberties are treated differently. We cannot let what happened yesterday happen in the future."

The attitude shift is not confined to conservative Republicans. Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts, said, "The general assumption in this country is freedom and individual privacy." But he added, "When conditions turn adverse, you respond to them."

In his case, Mr. Frank said, "I think I will be more supportive of more freedom for electronic surveillance than I was before, and I think more of an armed presence on airplanes."

Civil liberties groups, while initially muted as the nation grieved, were just beginning to voice their concerns today.

"It's very important at a time of crisis to reaffirm national principles, national ideals," said Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "I certainly understand the sense of frustration and tragedy — my own family has been touched by what's happened this week — but it would be an enormous cost to severely limit American freedoms."

Some advocates were dismayed by a proposal the Senate approved on Thursday night that would, among other things, make it easier for federal law enforcement to wiretap computers.

Senator Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, who is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, declared: "We are in a race to the finish line with agents of terror. Will we enhance our security and defenses before they are able to strike again?"

But Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said today, "This amendment proposes significant and dangerous changes to our wiretapping laws and should not have been adopted literally in the middle of the night without debate or scrutiny."

Civil liberties groups are also concerned about ideas like expanding use of face-recognition technology, which allows security cameras tied to computers to search a crowd for criminals.

Representative Martin T. Meehan, Democrat of Massachusetts, said: "I don't think we've done a good enough job in this country utilizing the technology available, like facial recognition technology. We need to make greater investments there."

Mr. Meehan, who was interviewed while the Capitol was being evacuated on Thursday night, also felt that the nation's attitudes had fundamentally changed after the attacks. "Given this unspeakable act, Americans will tolerate some restraint on their liberties for the sake of security," he said.

And polling suggests that they are more than willing to make that tradeoff.

With many of these proposals, like face-recognition systems, "we have to really reflect on how much we value privacy," said Walter Dellinger, who served as acting solicitor general in the Clinton administration.

"With terrorism, our only defense might be infiltration and surveillance, so we're going to have to choose between security and privacy."

To monitor such proposals from both Congress and the administration in the coming months, a new coalition of civil rights, civil liberties, religious and other organizations is beginning to form, advocates said. Already, such groups were sounding the alarm about the possibility of a backlash and discrimination against Arab-Americans.

In part, such fears are a reaction to history.

"We know what happened post- Pearl Harbor; we know what happens when you have these national security situations," said Ralph Neas, president of People for the American Way, a liberal rights group, recalling the wartime relocation and internment of Japanese- Americans after the 1941 attack. "Many times," Mr. Neas said, "there are overreactions, not based on fact or careful analysis, that lead to a violation of the Constitution."

For Education And Discussion Only. Not For Commercial Use.



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1 posted on 09/14/2001 9:37:50 PM PDT by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
We are so F888ed.....
2 posted on 09/14/2001 9:42:38 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: JohnHuang2
Meehin and Frank making ANY decision is scary.

CYA from the NYT cowards and symps...

3 posted on 09/14/2001 9:48:38 PM PDT by Benrand
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To: JohnHuang2
"When you are at war, civil liberties are treated differently. We cannot let what happened yesterday happen in the future."

I have a feeling this war will never end.

Isn't this basically what they said about the income tax?

4 posted on 09/14/2001 9:50:02 PM PDT by xm177e2
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To: xm177e2
"'Given this unspeakable act, Americans will tolerate some restraint on their liberties for the sake of security,' he said.'"

Not this American. Frankly, I'm scared. This is turning into a disaster for privacy. With no time left for argument. It's just going to happen. Like the income tax, there's no going back.

5 posted on 09/14/2001 10:01:25 PM PDT by The Westerner
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To: JohnHuang2
One man, Osmana bin Laden, with 19 helpers allowed to destroy our civil liberties? And who do we hand over our rights to? Those same gaggle of soft-ons who were asleep at the switch and who have failed miserably to live up to their oaths to protect and defend the U.S. against all enemies, foreign and domestic? That would be a big mistake. Better to just vote into office persons who take security seriously--starting with a concern for securing our borders.
6 posted on 09/14/2001 10:02:36 PM PDT by Bob Burnett
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To: JohnHuang2
I don't see why citizens of the United States should give up their constitutional rights. I do think however, that the Constitution should be ammended to take away constitutional rights from non-citizens who commit terrorist acts against the United States, United States citizens, or ships or aircraft with United States registration. I also think that the citizenship of any naturalized citizen who participates in such acts should be removed. Also, we should revisit our policy of automatic citizenship for anyone born in this country even if both parents are not citizens and not in this country legally or a fugitive from justice from another country. This way if a non-citizen terrorist has children by a non-citizen in this country, his wife and his children could all be deported.
7 posted on 09/14/2001 10:08:20 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: JohnHuang2
If you were to ask me which was a greater threat to the future of America, the WTC bombing or Waco and Ruby Ridge, my answer would be Waco and Ruby Ridge. The WTC bombing is dramatic, but the drama should not be allowed to eclipse long term profound and threatening problems at home.
8 posted on 09/14/2001 10:08:45 PM PDT by RLK
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To: JohnHuang2
I forsee a change in LEADERSHIP if our freedoms are changed. Barbara Boxer in charge of anti-terrorism. Give me a flippen break. What we need:

1) Human intelligence spying on these Islamic fanatical bastard assassins
2) A tough immmigration policy
3)An airplane cockpit built to withstand forced entry

All of this involves the GOVERNMENT doing THEIR JOB. We don't need to give up ANY freedoms.

9 posted on 09/14/2001 10:29:52 PM PDT by VRWC For Truth
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To: RLK
It seems to me that the government has already been jumping all over civil liberties for years now. This could be the coup de gras for the bill of rights
10 posted on 09/14/2001 10:31:24 PM PDT by virgil
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To: Paleo Conservative
I agree. Good post. Thanks.
11 posted on 09/14/2001 10:40:48 PM PDT by garyhope
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To: virgil
bin Laden doesn't worry me as much over the long term as does bin Hillary.
12 posted on 09/14/2001 11:12:05 PM PDT by RLK
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To: JohnHuang2
Well, then we'll just have to go to work on the statists, won't we?
13 posted on 09/14/2001 11:15:15 PM PDT by Hank Rearden
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To: Paleo Conservative
Re: #7 - Agree completely.
14 posted on 09/14/2001 11:16:51 PM PDT by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
This is what it is all about for the 98% socialist's in congress and the senate. A disaster made special for them. As someone said today on the radio...You can expect the fight against face recognition cameras to end now. The Government created this problem by leting these known terroist's in the country and then training them. Now they want to protect us against a problem that they created. How convienant.
15 posted on 09/14/2001 11:25:50 PM PDT by Revel
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To: JohnHuang2, RLK
I've been working on grabbing as many quotes regarding our freedoms and liberties since the WTC bombing from citizens, bureaucrats, politicans, etc. from all government entities(local/county/state/federal) and all areas/regions/states, etc. as possible regarding our freedoms and liberties since the WTC bombing. I want to tell you what, you may faint if I post them down the road. Want just a sample? I had a friend just send me these just minutes ago. The small local newspaper asked local citizens the following question:

Would you give up some of your liberty for increased security?

#1: "I think most people who don't have anything to hide are willing to give up some of their liberty."

#2: "Yes, without a doubt. They could strip search me at the airport, I don't care. It's a small price to pay."

#3: "I think it's all worth it."

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

Hell is coming.

16 posted on 09/14/2001 11:40:15 PM PDT by Uncle Bill
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To: JohnHuang2
To quote the AP headline on page 7 or so of todays Rapid City Urinal, Daschle: "Freedom will be curtailed". Well duh, look who's talking. The leader of that crazy and dangerous bunch who thinks he deserves the honor of the title senator.

Sorry, senator is not what I call you, and for a man who has taken an oath before God and the country to preserve what the founders gave us, you ought to be ashamed of yourself for trying to convince people who know better, that "it's a different world now". So freedom is just another word for you to redefine as only you can do it.

I just want a picture of what your world looks like after about fifty years of what passes for your ideas. I have a feeling I would feel, and be, safer with a random dart throw for senator, but then I'm not really looking for safety, I think the preservation of what the founding fathers gave us, is a far more important and noble cause than chucking it all in the trash in the name of safety, and the democrat party.

17 posted on 09/14/2001 11:44:02 PM PDT by wita
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To: Everyone
If we have to give up our freedom in order to defend it, then what are we really defending? We must do all we can to defend ourselves within the bounds of our Constitutional liberties - otherwise, we lose what matters most. That's why we must wage a war that is clearly defined and clearly delimited, so we don't get into the situation where we have an ongoing "war on terrorism" (very vague and undefined) which could last forever, thus forever suspending our liberties. We must clearly define who it is we're going after, what we are going to do, and how we know when the war is done. This is how WWII was fought, and why we won. Anything else would be a disaster, as we saw in the Clinton military foreign policy.
18 posted on 09/14/2001 11:55:51 PM PDT by billybudd
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To: Uncle Bill,Thinkin' Gal,TrueBeliever9,babylonian,MissAmericanPie,DreamWeaver,Fred Mertz
>Hell is coming.

Hang on.  He's coming, too.  Endure to the end!

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Ac 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

A look at Bible prophecy indicates God raises up in Judgment (Deut. 28) against America a coalition of 10 nations (OPEC probably) (Rev. 17:12-13) which join with Russia and China and nuke America to utterly destroy it (Jer. 50 & 51).  Likely the fall of the towers of Babylon was just the start, then there is a short space to repent (RIGHT NOW) during which the Lord says (Re 18:4) ..."Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

The UNgodly globalists already on board inside America are pushing ecumenicalism and turning public opinion against Christians and Jews at the same time.  (Ezek. 38)  The gov't beast attacking the widow McGuckin and the fatherless should have been a warning.  The gov't snatching the baby of Rebecca Corneau last year and waiting to snatch the baby of Ruth (thy people shall be my people) Christine should be further warnings and are a picture of Rev. 12:

Re 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death...
There should be a whole lot of repenting going on right now, but all we see is that pride hath budded.  (Ezek. 7:1-15).  Although Americans may think of Pride as a virtue, it is what God hates the most.

Pray to see v. 10: -- Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ.  In the meantime, see Rev. 18:4.

19 posted on 09/15/2001 2:31:39 AM PDT by 2sheep
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To: Jmouse007,Jeremiah Jr,RnMomof7,Prodigal Daughter,Governor StrangeReno,farmer18,Havoc
Bump.
20 posted on 09/15/2001 4:33:33 AM PDT by 2sheep
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