BRAVO ! This is well written and exactly on point . He must have also been reading FR. LOL

Sorry, but this is just plain ignorant and ahistorical.

First of all, there is nothing unpatriotic about calling one's own country to repentance.

Second, America is a sinful country: 45 million dead babies, etc., etc., etc.

Nevertheless, the attacks of September 11 were an act of war and an atrocity, and self-defense is fully justified. A country does not lose the right to self-defense merely because it is sinful.

Finally, anyone who thinks that nobody at the start of WWII said that Americans should examine their consciences is just plain ignorant. That message was heard from plenty of pulpits and elsewhere. For one example: It was part of the message of Fatima--so it was heard from many Catholic pulpits and periodicals. Mary said in 1917 that WWI (and "another war" which she said would occur within a generation) was the consequence of many sins--both social and personal. That message was quoted quite often for years.

Once again, calling one's own country to repentance in no way excuses criminal atrocities, is in no way a call to roll over, and is in no way unpatriotic.

I ma not a Catholic, so I may have his wrong ; however , I was under the impression that those prophosies were NOT revealed until recently and one or two are still not known.

This craziess, about how America " deserved " this because of sinfuless / this is a " wakeup call " from GOD , is ridiculous. So are all of the threads about how this is the " end times ." The early Christians said that no one should have children bbecause those were the " end times ." The millenialist, in 1000 , claimed it was the " end times ." When the Bubonic Pague hit Europe, many people and priests sqaid that it was " the end times ", and a punishment from GOD. Many people left their homes and families, and walked all over Europe, scurging themselves in atonment. That didn't stop / cure the plague .

The prophets of the OT, were talking to the Israelites and that has NO bearing on America in 2001. To cherrypick scriptures and / or to use Apocrapha Books, which most people do NOT use / read / belive in, to " prove " this is whatever the poster claims , is blatant proselytizing and has little relivence to what we are living through. This is NOT a theocracy .

Abortions were NOT legal , in American , during the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish - American War, WW1, WW2, Korea, and VietNam. Was GOD punishing the USA then, as well? Was he " punishing " the Jews during the Holocaust? If you say yes, then tell me why homosexuals, Communists, the mentally retarded, and Gypsys were also being punished by GOD , through the Nazis .

If the Black Plague was indeed GOD's punshment of sin, then is polio , measles, chickenpox, mumps, smallpox, cancer,the flu epidemic of 1918 , and a host of other diseases also GOD's punishment ? I not, why not ? All of those diseases have killed many thousands ( maybe even millions ) of people. We now have vacinations for almost all of those diseases and aside from cancer, no one gets / dies from the diseases I mentioned. If we can prevent these diseases, have we then thwarted GOD's punishment / will ? If this is the case, then are we all in league with the devil ? If not, why not ?

This could get interesting.

Ultimately, it will be our God vs thiers.

BUMP!

The message of Fatima was thoroughly publicized within a few years. It was approved by the late twenties. The only portion of the message not released until recently was a letter written by Sr. Lucia in 1929, containing some further predictions about the state of the Church.

I mentioned abortion as one sin. There were plenty of abortion, and plenty of sins of all kinds, before 1973. Nothing I said implied that the War of 1812 or the Civil War, etc., couldn't have happened--because abortion wasn't legal at the time. (Actually, it was. And it wasn't rare.) Nothing I said implied that the human race was without sin until 1973.

War is the consequence of sin and stupidity. This is undeniable.

No one is perfectly innocent. And everyone, no matter how innocent, dies.

No intelligent person imagines he has an answer as to why particular individuals suffer in particular ways.

All I am arguing against is the notion that, because we were unjustly attacked, we are sinless and blameless and have no need to examine ourselves for sin and stupidity. I am in no way arguing against our right of self-defense. We should seek out terrorists and kill them. We have a right to do so. That doesn't mean we are a race of sinless angelic beings.

I never said that mankind is sinless .

The people, who were murdered, were not stupid. Neither did they start this war.

Abortions , as well as infanticide have been performed since the beginning of time. As a matter of fact, up until rather recently, most religions taught that a baby was not a baby ( did not have a soul even ) , util quickening, or some other period of months. Yes, abortions have always been done in this country, as well.

Not only is this country NOT a theocracy, it is NOT monolithically even all Christian of varying sects, or Jewish of varying sects, or even all religious of any kind or denomination. This then is the crux of the problem, covered in the article.

Didn't the prophosies at Fatima also supposedly tell of the attempt on the Pope's life ? Wasn't that released way after the fact ? As I said, I don't know that much about it; that's why I am asking.

The Crusades were a call to arms for religious reasons. The attack o the WTC and the Pentagon were too ; just not the same religion. This is a war, this isn't GOD's punishment , and we absolutely must retaliate. How do I know that this isn't GOD's punishment ? If it were, then EVERY war, battle, and attack by one country country or force against another, would have to be as well. There is nothing at all like that in my Bible. I was never taught that in Sunday school, nor conformation classes, or heard it in any sermon. Yes, I was going to church, when some wars were engaged in by this country. Neither did I ever hear such a thing on the radio or T.V . ! Now, it seems to be the blue plate special , here on FR, and in the media , amongst a few .

The WTC attack was the consequence of sin. It was the consequence of the sinfulness of radical moslem terrorists. And that sin must be eliminated by the war on terrorism.

I'm sure Romans thought the Christian who were thrown to the lions were nuts too. They just needed to say "all roads lead to God" and they would have been able to live. While abortion has always been around, the number of babies murdered today (3/4 the WTC attacks a day) is an indication of how far we have fallen. If a preacher isn't suppose to tell the people to repent and turn to God, what good are they?

Ralph Reiland Winner of the strawman contest.

What an idiot.

He imagines his baseless whole-cloth opinions about God are superior to those of people who at least try to draw from an authority external and superior to themselves.

If (and I say "if") people who appeal to Scripture to indicate that this was a judgment of God are nutty, then people who flatly deny the thought without any external, transcendent authority are insultingly stupid.

Dan
Biblical Christianity message board

You rang? Huh? Hey!!

..the nation had become too lewd and crude, too secular, too full of dirty movies, too full of people who got a kick out of Mae West when she said "So many men, so little time."

He's just torqued 'cause he wasn't one of them!

...I didn't want a Mae West slowing me down."

You should be so lucky, ya big lunk.

It's called a Mae West after the woman who has big breasts and so anything that bulges is a Mae West."

Go worry 'bout your own pants, Mistuh Reiland!

Word.

Bump