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'Bullet holes' found in cockpit (Flight #1812)
telegraph.co.uk ^ | 05/10/2001 | telegraph.co.uk

Posted on 10/05/2001 3:20:25 AM PDT by CommiesOut

'Bullet holes' found in cockpit

(Filed: 05/10/2001) http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/05/uhole.xml

THREE holes, thought to have been made by bullets, were discovered in a fragment of the cockpit of the Russian Tu-154 jet that crashed into the Black Sea, according to rescuers.

The captain of a dry cargo carrier involved in the rescue reported this to the transportation ministry, the Interfax news agency has reported.

Russian prosecutors today opened a criminal investigation into whether the crash was caused by a terrorist act.

Other unconfirmed reports said the Sibir Air jet was accidentally shot down during military exercises in Ukraine.

Sixteen bodies have so far been recovered from the crash site and taken to Sochi, on the Black Sea coast. The Sabir air company said it was also flying 33 relatives to the town.



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1 posted on 10/05/2001 3:20:25 AM PDT by CommiesOut
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To: CommiesOut
Surely just fragments of the SAM, an isolated incident. Of course. Naturally.
2 posted on 10/05/2001 3:23:14 AM PDT by HarryCaul
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To: CommiesOut
Very interesting. SAMs do not normally leave bullet holes. Also the range of the suspected missile seems make it one hell of a shot. This was no accidental downing.
3 posted on 10/05/2001 3:24:44 AM PDT by Movemout
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To: CommiesOut
Mini SAM's.
4 posted on 10/05/2001 3:25:52 AM PDT by Cagey
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UPDATE 4 - Russia opens criminal investigation of plane crash  

 (Adds details from Sochi; previous MOSCOW) 
    By Rosalind Russell 
    SOCHI, Russia, Oct 5 (Reuters) - Russia launched an 
investigation on Friday into Thursday's crash of an airliner in 
the Black Sea under a criminal code article dealing with 
terrorism, as rescue workers started to bring bodies ashore. 
    Workers lifted corpses from the debris-strewn water off 
Russia's resort of Sochi, where the plane carrying up to 78 
people, mostly Russian-born Israelis, from Tel Aviv to 
Novosibirsk in Siberia crashed after a mid-air explosion. 
    The chief prosecutor's office said Prosecutor General 
Vladimir Ustinov launched a criminal investigation into the 
crash under article 205, which is used to deal with terrorism. 
    President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday the crash might be 
a "terrorist act", but later called on the media not to 
"sensationalise" the disaster. 
    A rival theory is that the Sibir airlines Tupolev-154 was 
accidentally hit by a Ukrainian missile during a military 
exercise. Ukraine has denied that. 
    A spokesman for Sochi's mayor, Gleb Gutiev, said six ships 
were trawling through the crash site 185 km (115 miles) 
southwest of the resort, while one helicopter hovered overhead. 
    Luggage and torn metal scraps floated across stretches of 
the sea. Gutiev said 14 bodies had been recovered and taken 
ashore, along with fragments of the front of the plane.  
    Interfax news agency quoted a senior official from the 
Emergency Ministry's North Caucasus branch as saying the plane's 
cockpit and a segment of its cabin had been recovered. 
    A door thought to belong to the cockpit was found with 
several small holes, but Gutiev said only further investigation 
could say if they were caused by bullets. 
    The plane's black boxes, which could provide vital clues to 
the jetliner's mysterious plunge, were not likely to be found 
because they were too deep, Interfax said quoting the mayor of 
Sochi's office. 
    Passengers' relatives were expected to arrive in Sochi from 
Novosibirsk on Friday afternoon. 
     
    UKRAINE DENIAL 
    Ukraine was quick to dismiss American suggestions that the 
Russian plane might have been accidentally hit by a missile 
test-fired by the Ukrainian military. 
    A U.S. official, requesting anonymity, said in Washington 
there was "every indication" a Ukrainian missile was to blame. 
U.S. officials said a spy satellite had detected a missile's 
rocket plume. 
    But a Russian spokesman, quoted by Interfax, said Ukrainian 
President Leonid Kuchma had told Putin by telephone that "there 
was absolutely no basis to accuse the Ukrainian (military) of 
any involvement in this tragic incident". 
    Vladimir Rushailo, secretary of Russia's Security Council, 
arrived in Sochi late on Thursday with experts from the FSB 
domestic security service to lead the investigation into the 
crash. 
    The mid-air explosion triggered fears of sabotage following 
the September 11 attacks in the United States, when hijacked 
airliners flew into the World Trade Center in New York and the 
Pentagon in Washington, leaving 6,000 people dead or missing. 
     
    TEST FIRING OF MISSILES 
    Ukrainian forces were test firing surface-to-air missiles 
from the Crimea at the time of Thursday's crash. 
    But Ukrainian military spokesman Konstantin Khivrenko said: 
"Neither the direction nor the range (of the missiles) 
correspond to the practical or theoretical point at which the 
plane exploded. So the Ukrainian military has no involvement, 
either practical or theoretical, in this accident." 
    Igor Ashurbeili, general director of weapon manufacturers 
Almaz, told Vedomosti newspaper that the C-300 missiles launched 
from the Ukraine would not have been able to hit the jetliner. 
    He said the longest range of Ukrainian missiles was 300 km 
(185 miles), while the Ukrainian exercises had been taking place 
more than 320 km (200 miles) from where the plane came down. 
    The plane crashed in water about 1,000 metres (3,300 feet) 
deep, an Emergencies Ministry official said. 
    Official accounts of the number of passengers and crew on 
board varied between 74 and 78. An Emergencies Ministry official 
in Novosibirsk said the crew were all Russian but that most of 
the 65 or so passengers were Israeli citizens. 
    Putin and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon spoke by 
telephone following the accident, and Sharon said they agreed 
that Israel and Russia would cooperate fully in investigating 
the cause of the crash. 
 ((Moscow newsroom, +7 095 241-0101, fax: +7 095 941-8538, 
moscow.newsroom@reuters.com)) 
 
05 OCT 2001 10:16:48

5 posted on 10/05/2001 3:29:56 AM PDT by CommiesOut
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To: CommiesOut
The captain of a dry cargo carrier involved in the rescue reported this to the transportation ministry

Wonder how many airline crashes this guy has investigated?

6 posted on 10/05/2001 3:30:36 AM PDT by mdittmar
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To: CommiesOut
It is hilarious when a variety of different governments contradict each other.

They just can't get their lies straight!

We will learn the whole truth about this incident the day after Bill Clinton gives a full explanation of Vince Foster's death. :-(
7 posted on 10/05/2001 3:32:19 AM PDT by cgbg
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To: CommiesOut
meteor shower
8 posted on 10/05/2001 3:32:54 AM PDT by The Raven
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To: CommiesOut
Oh I know what it was! It was the result of a "cockpit door bullet resistance" test carried out a few weeks ago. You know, like a bomb sniffing dog test can leave explosive residue, these tests can leave bullet holes in the cockpiut door! It's simple!
9 posted on 10/05/2001 3:34:51 AM PDT by HarryCaul
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To: HarryCaul
Funny Chechen preemptive strike.

========================================
Chechen web site preempts accusations regarding Black Sea plane crash
BBC Monitoring Service - United Kingdom; Oct 5, 2001 ............ http://globalarchive.ft.com/globalarchive/article.html?id=011005002614

5 October: Many electronic media outlets have been carrying reports about a Tu-154 passenger aircraft, flying from Tel-Aviv to Novosibirsk, crashing [into the Black Sea].

[Passage omitted: more details of crash]

For our part, we would like to express our condolences to the relatives of those killed and we hope that a detailed investigation into what happened will be carried out.

P.S. We would also like to hope that the FSB [Federal Security Service] is not going to find on CRI [Chechen Republic of Ichkeria] territory tomorrow, or the day after a detailed plan of this aircraft's route, precisely marking the place it crashed.

Source: Chechenpress web site, Tbilisi, in Russian 5 Oct 01

/BBC Monitoring/ © BBC.

10 posted on 10/05/2001 3:39:26 AM PDT by CommiesOut
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To: CommiesOut
Fox Mulder, call the office.
11 posted on 10/05/2001 3:40:48 AM PDT by csvset
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To: HarryCaul

Operation: "Just an isolated incident"

It has begun. The Greyhound Bus, The Anthrax, This Airliner.....

I wonder what today's "isolated incident" will be? Any guesses?

12 posted on 10/05/2001 3:41:08 AM PDT by TheOtherOne
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To: CommiesOut
The plane was over 100 miles off course before to went down....that might suggest that it was taken over by hijackers who changed direction, the bullet holes might be evidence of conflict in the cockpit....

The Ukranians then may have decided to shoot this plane down before it could reach it's potential target, perhaps a nuclear plant or populated area....

Just a theory

13 posted on 10/05/2001 3:46:05 AM PDT by maquiladora
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Russian navy accuses AFP of "irresponsible" air crash reporting
BBC Monitoring Service - United Kingdom; Oct 5, 2001 ...... http://globalarchive.ft.com/globalarchive/article.html?id=011005002968

Text of report in English by Russian news agency Interfax

Sevastopol, 5 October: Capt 3rd Rank Igor Larichev of the Russian Black Sea Fleet press service did not have any information about the crash of the Tu-154 airliner in the Black Sea and did not comment on the situation, the Black Sea Fleet press service told Interfax in response to various reports by news agencies.

"The only journalist who ventured to release incorrect information after talking with the officer (Larichev) was from Agence France Presse," the press service said. The Black Sea Fleet command takes the view that "the correspondent's extremely irresponsible attitude towards his duties caused absolute misinformation that has evoked a wide public response".

The command regretted that "authoritative world news agencies employ the services of indecent journalists and circulate evident lies in pursuing a questionable sensation" and said it hopes the news agencies will in future "derive information from more reliable sources".

Source: Interfax news agency, Moscow, in English 0733 gmt 5 Oct 01

/BBC Monitoring/ © BBC.

14 posted on 10/05/2001 3:46:31 AM PDT by CommiesOut
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Crashed plane cockpit has gun holes, says Russian TV
BBC Monitoring Service - United Kingdom; Oct 5, 2001 ......... http://globalarchive.ft.com/globalarchive/article.html?id=011005002969

Text of report by Russia TV on 5 October

We are back to the main news - the crash of the Tu-154 airliner over the Black Sea with 78 people aboard. Some half an hour ago the "Kapitan Vakulov" freighter delivered the bodies of 13 crash victims to Sochi. The ship's captain has reported that the partition [separating the cockpit from the passenger cabin] recovered from the sea has three holes resembling bullet holes, the Interfax news agency has just reported.

Source: Russia TV, Moscow, in Russian 0700 gmt 5 Oct 01

/BBC Monitoring/ © BBC.

15 posted on 10/05/2001 3:48:36 AM PDT by CommiesOut
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To: TheOtherOne
The Anthrax was isolated. There are a couple of cases of Anthrax every year in the USA.

The fact that the authorities are openly treating this as non-malicious clearly shows that they are not concerned about it being a terror attack.

16 posted on 10/05/2001 3:48:39 AM PDT by maquiladora
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To: maquiladora
18 during the 20th century is not "a couple every year"
17 posted on 10/05/2001 3:54:30 AM PDT by TheOtherOne
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To: TheOtherOne
Scary,but Im not ready to panic yet.A lot of isolated incidents though.........
18 posted on 10/05/2001 3:54:41 AM PDT by cardinal4
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To: Movemout
Also the range of the suspected missile seems make it one hell of a shot. This was no accidental downing.

Why was it a heck of a shot? That missle is designed to hit a target within that 185m range. Wouldn't be that hard if it was a slow moving, unmaneuverable aircraft. An aircraft I might add that has no threat warning indicator which would give the pilot a reason to make evasive maneuvers.

I find it very possible that some trigger happy SAM operator locked on and pressed fire. Remember, there isn't a self-destruct button the operator could have pushed.

Although the tin-foil needs to worn on this incident, especially since we are getting so many conflicting reports, I think your reasoning is flawed.

19 posted on 10/05/2001 4:00:30 AM PDT by RedWing9
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To: CommiesOut

gee, thats not a DC-10 ripoff is it?

20 posted on 10/05/2001 4:00:33 AM PDT by KneelBeforeZod
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