Seems fairly typical of Congressional dickering with respect to the military.

BTTT. Let's get rid of up or out instead!!! LOL

affirmative action and political correctness has destroyed the military along with the rest of the country

Equality, my friend; it's all done in the name of equality. And what American can be against equality? We're for equality in this country, right???

During clinton/whore ALL promotions were subject to quotas. Merit had very little to do with the matter.

BINGO, BEST WRENCH ON A HELO I EVER KNEW HAD TO GET OUT OF THE ARMY BECAUSE HE COULD NEVER MEET THE CUTOFF SCORE FOR e-5 FOR 15 YEARS.

Great mechanic, but would have been a terrible leader so they boot him to the curb. Now (3 years ago) you got wrenches left in the tailboom ds cover, flashlights in engine inlet plenums, dirty windscreens and tail rotors with the wrong washer stacks, terrible safeties on drain plugs and chip detectors, people using tourque wrenches after dropping them on the hanger floor. Back to the SPC 4-8 ranks!

My comments

What they should do is to make the extention on your obligation 6 years after acceptance to the adv. crs. They should also make the attendance at the adv crs within a month of giving up your first plattoon instead of sending you up to Squadron to be the asst. S-4 for the next 18 months. The guy is a senior Lt and will come back a junior Cpt., then he serves his staff time and then gets a 24 month command, then more staff time. By the time this is over he is in 10 years and up for O-5 and knows if he is in line to make it and stay for 20 or punch out at 11 years and hit the civilian world.

As it is now, they can take the adv crs and get out anyway after a one year obligation. Then they join the guard because the slots for the adv crs out of the guard units are rare and tend to go to the most senior member of the staff not the most qualified. You don't go to the guard with the adv crs already under your belt it could be years before you get a slot from you guard unit. This puts off your chance for company command and puts you years behind your peer group.

Close source comments

Back in 1975 at CGSC, the big wig army leadership came in and told us it was going to be a new army, an army of truth, not lies. The problem was we had all worked for them in Vietnam and we knew what we told them in our reports and we knew what they were telling the JCS and it wasn't the same info we were giving them. Needless to say it was a dark moment when the invited guest speakers that the schoolhouse had set up were so poorly recieved. These folks were the gladhanders, the cocktail party goers, the folks who moved in the right circles back at the PENTAGON where no self-repecting combat arms officer ever wants to spend 10 minutes of his carreer.

We made our own decision to stop that trend with our group. Now, that group is gone, there are no more warriors with the knowledge and leadership under fire left to put in the little glass box with the small hammer hanging next to it. You know, the break glass in case of ememergency box on the wall!

>>These folks were the gladhanders, the cocktail party goers, the folks who moved in the right circles back at the PENTAGON where no self-repecting combat arms officer ever wants to spend 10 minutes of his carreer<<

The first task that we have had to carry out, in any war we have fought, is to find and get rid of these people, who are innumerable.

It was true in 1861, it was true in 1917, it was true in 1941, and it's true today.

The "skills" that lead to the star world in peacetime are of negative value in war. In previous examples cited, a bloodbath was required to start moving the warriors into high command responsibility, hopefully we have learned from the past.

My own view of this war is that, if it is to be prosecuted to victory, that it will be quite challenging, and that we could be defeated without the right leadership.

It requires all newly commissioned officers to initially serve as reservists

Maybe I'm living with my head buried in the sand, but this is the first I've heard of this issue as a retention problem. I don't really think whether you're regular or reserve is a major cause for retention. In fact, by implication, you stay in, you're going to be regular.

I really beginning to think it's true that in order to be a senior officer, you have to have a full frontal lobotomy.

I think the main problem is combat officers, they can't be warriors and expect to be retained. They believe COO sucks and is counter-productive, and that senior leaders would "Run them over with a truck to if it'd further that leaders career."

Get rid of the PC military. I agree with the guy that said Tailhook should have been settled with a swift kick to the balls, instead of all that other Bullsh*t.

Ah, the old 'regular' vs. 'reserve' controversy:

(to the tune of My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean)

When the orders are cut for the staff school
The regulars are packing their grips
When the orders are cut for [Korea][Vietnam]
The reservists are making the trip

(Chorus)
Fight on, Fight on
Fight on, Regular Army,
Fight on, Fight on,
Fight on, Fight on,
Fight on to the last damned Reserve!

When there's an atomic explosion
The Regular Army will be there en masse
Protected from betas and gammas
By all of the Lead in their ass

Chorus

The trade school up on the Hudson
could improve on its old lesson plan
by offering a course of instruction
in finding your ass with both hands.

or the ROTC version:

They made me a second lieutenant
They gave me two bars of gold
They made me a forward observer,br> And I lived to be three seconds old

(Chorus)
R O T C, sounds like a bunch of bull s____ to me
R O T C, and that's what it turned out to be!

Back in 1975 at CGSC, the big wig army leadership came in and told us it was going to be a new army, an army of truth, not lies. The problem was we had all worked for them in Vietnam and we knew what we told them in our reports and we knew what they were telling the JCS and it wasn't the same info we were giving them. Needless to say it was a dark moment when the invited guest speakers that the schoolhouse had set up were so poorly recieved.

I remember hearing about that from some guys who were there. A few months ago I finally threw out (because it was so detriorated) my poster done by a Sill advanced course guy in the late '70s for a 'movie' called The Modern Battlefield brought to you by the same folks who brought you The GOER, The Gamma Goat and TACFIRE, starring The Modern Soldier (Johnny Tentpeg), the Modern Wife (Mary d' Tentpeg), the Modern Threat (Ivan Togohome) and the Modern Captain (whose name escapes me at the moment).

I also remember friends being crucified on OERs for refusing to lie on readiness reports and the toadying that went on, the middle grade officers who clung to their commissions as they only way to avoid going out and becoming a K-mart manager. There were great guys, too, but too many of the bad buys were staying in in those days. I remember sitting at the Sill OOM with my boss, his boss, the FA school commander and the post commander, all of whom had served in the Brown Shoe Army and having them tell me that this wasn't the army they signed up for, that they were all glad to be close to retiring and that if they were young officers today (late '70s) (they were supposed to be talking me into taking a regular commission and staying in) they wouldn't stay. This from guys who wrote me reports saying things like "if I were in a combat situation, I would fight to have this officer on my team".

I don't really think whether you're regular or reserve is a major cause for retention. In fact, by implication, you stay in, you're going to be regular.

Yeah, but they changed the rules in mid-stream so that the 'RA' designation is meaningless in a RIF--and by the time you get the 'RA' stamp, you are at about 7 years in and far enough out of the 'civilian world' that getting a 'real job' is problematic.

Allow me to illustrate my case as I was one of those young officers who bailed at the end of my obligation at the very earliest opportunity in 1995.:

Regular commissions had been almost equally divided between graduates of the service academies and Distinguished Military Graduates of ROTC and OCS programs. ROTC and OCS candidates could compete for regular commissions by ranking in the top 25 percent of their classes and becoming Distinguished Military Graduates.

Complete bullsh!t. I broke my ass to graduate at the top of the OML, as a Distinguished Military Grad with an Electrical Engineering degree, out of one of the top ROTC units in the US at the time--Arizona State.

My 'dream sheet' looked like kinda like this:

1. infantry
2. infantry
3. infantry
4. see 1-3 above.
5. Armor, if I can't get 1-4 above.

I had recommendations from the COL (who was a former Ranger) to infantry branch to branch me infantry. All I ever really wanted to do with my life was to be a career infantry officer. Went to jump school as a cadet.

I got branched in 1990: Reserve Comission, Military Intelligence--yeccchhhh.

A regular commission has been a two-way contract: commitment to a career by the officer and a reciprocal guarantee of employment by the government.

This doesn't exist anymore at all.

I went through an 'assessment board' to go on active duty. I went through a retention board to be retained on active duty. I was actually boarded for 1st lieutenant! Then the captain's board. I made it through these boards successfully.

A lot of 'RA' guys didn't. I had top-block ratings and some great assignments--BICC and S2 of a light infantry unit in Korea to a counterintell unit.

My obligation was up now, so my choice was:

1. Stay in for more boards and more crap and leaders who would push me under a bus to further their careers with incompetent peer intelligence officers (obvious in light of 9.11) in a worthless, incompetent branch that I couldn't stand--with the lowest selection rate to major of any branch.

2. Use my EE degree to get a nice job for a defense contractor with a 401K working on Army projects with a little time to spare to Freep.

I chose 2.

. The postscript is--I was offered a neat position in the part time Nasty Guard as an NCO, but I had to resign my commission. I resigned my comission in a heartbeat and am now an E5. I'm having a great time now.

A few months ago I finally threw out (because it was so detriorated) my poster done by a Sill advanced course guy in the late '70s for a 'movie' called The Modern Battlefield brought to you by the same folks who brought you The GOER, The Gamma Goat and TACFIRE, starring The Modern Soldier (Johnny Tentpeg), the Modern Wife (Mary d' Tentpeg), the Modern Threat (Ivan Togohome) and the Modern Captain (whose name escapes me at the moment).

Bah Hah!!!

You didn't mention the largest single reason really dedicated young officers leave: failure to belong to the WooPoo Protective Association. Most of us from the other military colleges have our own, and the WPPA pretty much leaves us alone, but for ROTC and OCS types it's a cold world out there. I know the PAs work: as a young LT I had a CPT decide for no good reason he was going to make my life miserable. An O-7 on post who was also a VMI man found out about it and had a little conversation with said CPT, after which he was transfered to Korea.

You didn't mention the largest single reason really dedicated young officers leave: failure to belong to the WooPoo Protective Association.

Y'know what the saddest thing is about the Army now--speaking as a ROTC guy, now--not even the WPPA takes care of their own anymore!

I've seen it happen in the light infantry unit in Korea. The ROTC retention rates were better on the first board I went through than pointers.

No one takes care of anyone else in the officer ranks-- f your buddy and push him under a bus if you can to avoid having to work at K-mart. It was awful.

No one 'protects' anybody anymore and that is worse than the WPPA 'old days'--pre 90's.

I'm talking to people who are in right now who joined during the Reagan years and they're saying the same exact thing. "When we go to war with these idiots we're gonna get our a*s shot off!"

All this P&M from "Officers! I'll just bet you soaked a lot of good NCOs EERs too.

For openers, I AM an NCO now and I'm having a great time, kicking ass and taking names...

Secondly, as an officer, I gave the NCO's a 'pre-rating period interview' to find out where they have been and where they wanted to go or do. We then agreed on specific measurable performance points to help them meet their goal and the unit's goal. I gave continuous feedback as to whether they were on track to meet those goals.

Furthermore, I asked the NCO's I rated (some really, really great guys) what the next job they wanted or needed was and how best I could help them to get there with my rating.

Just to make sure that I didn't 'accidently' screw anyone, before I submitted my ratings, I ran them by the SGM for his thoughts, feelings and input on these EERs.

I only really was forced to 'soak' two NCO's (actually, I ended up busting them out of the Army). One E5 was observed by his E7 PSGT smoking pot with Russian sailors in Pusan, Korea and he pissed hot on a test upon return. The second one went awol from a drug and alcohol treatment program.

You sound really bitter...

We're paying the price for having let the officer corps degnerate during and after Vietnam. There was a pretty serious attempt to rebuild during Reagan's administration, but the last decade has been a disaster. Lots of good young officers going in, but (1) many of the wrong ones leave because we seem to want anything but warriors, and (2) the officers do not represent the same cross section of society that they did say in 1965, just before the big Vietnam buildup.

I have a cousin who's 7-8 years out of the Point. After the usual Ranger school, he went to Aviation Branch and flew helicopters. He loves to fly. Then the Army promoted him to CPT below the zone and told him he'd have to quit flying -- so he switched to the Navy and is flying F/A-18's on a carrier out 'East of Suez' as they say. What a loss for the Army!