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Women in Ground Combat: A Proposal For An Experiment
Fred On Everything ^ | Fred Reed

Posted on 11/02/2001 5:17:45 PM PST by Apollo

Let's look bluntly (I'm not sure how you look bluntly, but I'm going to have at it) at whether women should be permitted in ground combat. And then I will make a splendid and fair-minded proposal, which will be applauded by radical feminists everywhere. My guess is that I'll be awarded life membership in the National Organization for Women.

Should women be in ground combat? Good lord no. Females have no place in the infantry, artillery, or armor. They are too weak, too delicate, and too small. They fade after about a day of heavy marching and lifting. They just get in the way. They will get men killed. The idea is bad, everyone who has been in the military understands it, but no one has the moxie to tell feminists "No."

Maybe you haven't been afoot in a war zone. I have. In the mid-Sixties in was in armor in Viet Nam with the Marine Corps, spent a fair amount of time carrying a rifle, went through infantry training in Camp Geiger, which you don't want to try unless you are one healthy young buck. Let me tell you some things about ground life in war zones.

It's brutally physical. Try unloading a truck carrying mortar rounds. Hump sixty pounds uphill in Asian heat for an hour. When I was a Marine a flame-thrower weighed, if memory serves, seventy-five pounds. Try humping that sucker up hills of greasy North Carolina clay when you slide back almost as much as you go forward and your lungs are burning till you can hardly breathe. Try breaking track on armor when a platoon in trouble needs fire support right now. Don't talk about it. Don't theorize. Try it. In Lejeune we force-marched day after day, on three and a half hours sleep. No, that's not exaggeration. Try it.

OK. Go to your local gym. If you aren't a member, pay the ten bucks for a day pass, and watch. Stand around for a couple of hours, and watch what men lift. Watch what women lift. See whether you can detect a pattern.

Women don't lift slightly less than men, and aren't slightly weaker. They lift enormously less. They are catastrophically weaker.

Don't take my word. Go. Look.

I'm 53, five-feet-ten, 180, in better shape than average for my size and age, but nothing spectacular. I never amounted to much as an athlete. I go to the gym to stay strong enough to carry my scuba tanks. If I walked into a Marine gym and said I was the strongest guy there, the Corps would have to be disbanded, because you can't fight while uncontrollably laughing.

But I'm far and away the strongest woman I've seen at Gold's in ten years of membership.

For example, I do fifteen sloppy reps on the bench machine with 250, and fifteen reps with 200 on the lat pull-down machine (the chin-up machine, if you will). It's respectable. That's all it is. There are guys there who could lift that much with me sitting on top of it.

I've never seen a woman bench more than eighty (which is real rare, but not even warm-up weight for a man). I don't think I've ever seen a woman pull eighty on the lat machine. Twenty to forty is normal for them.

Don't call me sexist. Don't tell me I'm trying to be "macho." (Or do: I don't care.) Go look.

Want documentation? There is a branch of research called exercise physiology, which has studied the physical capacities of men and women in near-infinite detail (largely to help in training athletes.) Check relative cardiac capacity, erythrocyte counts, muscle-mass-to-body-mass. I'm not making wild assertions. You can find all of this in any university library.

Now, what do these physical differences mean for society outside of the military? Almost nothing. A woman doesn't need strength to be a surgeon, professor, senator, journalist, or CEO. But weak women will get men killed in war. I've seen wars. I've been on casualty wards. So have a lot of men. For us, war isn't abstract, and getting men killed to appease feminists isn't cute.

I promised to make a splendid proposal. Here it is. Let's take 100 males just out of basic training, and 100 females, chosen at random. Let's take them all to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, in a rainy October. We'll put sixty-pound packs on them, give them rifles and a full load-out of ammo.

Then we'll force-march them, at a fast pace set by an infantry sergeant, until they drop. I mean literally drop: can't stand up any longer. No stress time-outs, no little green cards to wave, no trucks to carry their gear, no slowing down. Hump till they fall. This is what happens in combat: grim, unremitting physical effort with no sleep. Maybe it's humping with rifles and seven-eighty-two gear, maybe it's breaking track on a P-5, maybe it's unloading those miserable six-bys. It's physical.

If the women keep up, I'll shut up. If they keep up, all critics of putting women in the infantry will have to shut up. Here is a wonderful opportunity for radical feminists everywhere. But know what? I'll get a lot of screeching and howling because of this column, accusing me of sexism and patriarchy. What I won't get is a call by feminists to make the test. They know what would happen.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 11/02/2001 5:17:45 PM PST by Apollo
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To: Apollo
As a 50 year old former woman jock, in decent shape, I TOTALLY AGREE!
2 posted on 11/02/2001 5:39:53 PM PST by goodnesswins
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To: Apollo
As a Former Marine infantry sergeant, from Camp LeJeune, it is nice to hear this from a womens point of view.

When I was in the Corps, all we ever got was grief from the women Marines who said they could hang in the infantry, but were not aloud.

Good to hear from you.

Semper Fi

3 posted on 11/02/2001 6:03:01 PM PST by Marine Inspector
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To: goodnesswins
I agree, too.... I think the Isrialis tried it, and it didn't work for them. If I remember correctly, the men were able to continue fighting when other men were killed, but the sight of women dying disrupted them badly. There are plenty of things women can do that don't involve combat- just ask Rosie the Riveter.
4 posted on 11/02/2001 6:03:06 PM PST by JillH
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To: Apollo
It'll never work. The subjects will scream "Unfair! They're oppressing us by making us run until we drop! We can't keep up with the men so they should let us start halfway through the course!"
Uhh...girls, that's the whole problem here...

And what the h*ll is a woman combat soldier in the field - on the front lines - going to do when her period starts?????

5 posted on 11/02/2001 6:05:15 PM PST by petuniasevan
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To: Apollo
Yup, I get to the gym enough to see that my settings on the machines are typically 1/3 or 1/4 of those left behind by the fella's. No contest. I'll be happy to let those big lugs defend us and stay out of the way. I'd rather raise my sons than head into combat.
6 posted on 11/02/2001 6:14:51 PM PST by Think free or die
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To: Apollo
They are too weak, too delicate, and too small. They fade after about a day of heavy marching and lifting. They just get in the way.

You forgot to mention the need for a fainting couch.

Really, physical limitations are not why women should not be in combat.

Women should not be in combat because most men and most women deep down inside don't want women in combat.

We evolved to feel this way because any humans who thought it a good idea to send their women out to die, would have killed off their entire tribe in a generation or two, because one man can fertilize a whole village of women, and thereby create more warriors to defend the tribe, whereas one woman can only make a baby or so every year or so.

We have evolved inborn feelings to keep women out of combat for the same reasons we protect our weapons factories in war time.

The left does not subscribe to this, because the left wants to believe that men and women are equivalent.

7 posted on 11/02/2001 6:15:19 PM PST by Age of Reason
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To: Marine Inspector
Thanks, but I'm not a woman.
8 posted on 11/02/2001 6:15:39 PM PST by Apollo
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Apollo
But I'm far and away the strongest woman I've seen at Gold's in ten years of membership.

I think this is where the confusion came from... ;)

10 posted on 11/02/2001 6:29:56 PM PST by Johnny Shear
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To: Apollo
"But I'm far and away the strongest woman I've seen at Gold's in ten years of membership."

"Thanks, but I'm not a woman."

You can understand our confusion.

11 posted on 11/02/2001 6:31:37 PM PST by Shooter 2.5
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To: Zordas
Please forgive the prejudice of a Viet Nam veteran.

Sorry, it is not necessary to forgive the truth...I'll just bump it.

12 posted on 11/02/2001 6:34:27 PM PST by jo6pac
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To: Shooter 2.5; Apollo
Very confusing.

I'll have to go read it again.

13 posted on 11/02/2001 6:35:59 PM PST by Marine Inspector
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To: goodnesswins
I wouldn't want to mess with a battalion of bull dykes.

That would be scarry.

14 posted on 11/02/2001 6:37:23 PM PST by oldtimer
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To: Apollo
I'm 53, five-feet-ten, 180, in better shape than average for my size and age, but nothing spectacular. I never amounted to much as an athlete. I go to the gym to stay strong enough to carry my scuba tanks. If I walked into a Marine gym and said I was the strongest guy there, the Corps would have to be disbanded, because you can't fight while uncontrollably laughing.
But I'm far and away the strongest woman I've seen at Gold's in ten years of membership.

LOL....I would like to see you go through labor though..that is where the tough really get going !

BTW the only women that belong in combat are Janet Reno,Hillery Clinton,Jane Fonda and Madalyn Albright.....you might have a few other to send out front as decoys but these are the ones that come to my mind!

15 posted on 11/02/2001 6:37:35 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Shooter 2.5
I didn't write the article, I just posted it. I think the author was being sarcastic when he said he is the strongest woman at the gym..
16 posted on 11/02/2001 6:38:03 PM PST by Apollo
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Apollo
Of course, women aren't now permitted in an "up close and personal" combat role.

BUT, women in the National Guard are currently assigned as armed guards in airports.

In my opinion this is extremely dangerous to the flying public if they are carrying live ammunition.

Walking down the concourse of our local airport on Halloween, I was first amused to see a cute blond dressed in camoflage accessorized with M16 on her shoulder and canteen on her belt. Then it occurred to me that an out-of-shape, middle-aged man like myself could probably have disarmed her -- she was only about 5' 5" and 110-120 pounds. A young, al-Queda-trained suicide-terrorist would certainly have no trouble doing this, and if she had live ammunition, could have wrecked havoc in the terminal.

Our enemies can exploit the weaknesses of political correctness on the home front as well as the battlefields abroad.
18 posted on 11/02/2001 7:08:59 PM PST by RBroadfoot
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To: Apollo
It was late for me when I read it so I have to apologize. It still sounds like Fred Reed, the author, was in touch with his feminine side when he wrote that sentence.

I am all for drafting women. I think they should learn that they can't stand back and wail about the evils of guns without realizing that guns and the men behind them are keeping them safe. I'm also sick and tired of hearing from the women how cute the pervert in chief was, and they still don't understand the damage to our safety that person created. When it's their lives that are disrupted by the dems because they didn't do their jobs, I can sit back this time and laugh. This doesn't mean I want them in combat, but I want every anti-gun soccer mom to have the experience of sending their daughters to the train station to see them off. Then they can sit there and understand what their liberal BS created.

19 posted on 11/03/2001 4:52:59 AM PST by Shooter 2.5
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